34:00

I kind of say but just strut rarely

34:02

or a gauze and lace a fine Miss

34:04

Leonardi's bonnet. Oh my god.

34:07

Well... It's

34:10

a panty peeler. This is... I love it.

34:13

I love it. That panty peeler. Sorry,

34:17

that's going back to my California Gaysian days.

34:19

I never knew that line, but Hank Moody

34:21

liked to say that and I always thought

34:23

it was pretty funny. I

34:26

do feel like poetry about lice is a

34:28

panty upper. You're going

34:31

to keep them on and make them bigger. It's

34:34

a panty sealer. A

34:36

panty sealer. Hold

34:40

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34:42

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34:54

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35:54

your favorite TV show had twice as many

35:56

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35:58

so does Discover. I'm

38:00

just very, very sensitive

38:03

to the fact that these are

38:05

just approximations for an interior landscape

38:07

that has no words, really. You

38:10

know, we're just kind of, we're kind of

38:12

like agreeing to bullshit one another that we're

38:14

actually communicating, you know, our feelings

38:16

and reality when in fact the words themselves

38:18

have a certain kind of reality that we're,

38:21

keep on bandying back and forth. So

38:24

we're not necessarily the

38:26

feeling of failure from like throwing

38:29

out the first pitch at a Dodgers

38:31

game. It can certainly be that. I mean,

38:33

it could be that. That's

38:36

just so public. But

38:39

also like the mini failure, that just like

38:41

the feeling of failure. Yeah. We

38:44

could even take it back to like Original Sin or something,

38:46

you know, there's just like why, what

38:50

is that feeling? What

38:56

is the, what is useful about that feeling? Right.

38:58

Because I had somebody say, well, I don't call it

39:01

failure. I call it feedback. And I was

39:03

like, well, you're the only one. You're the only one. Good

39:05

for you. What? But,

39:07

you know, if you could do that,

39:09

that'd be fantastic. You know, it's like how, and

39:12

also some failures are tougher to

39:14

bounce back from than others. You

39:16

know, some need grieving. Some

39:18

you need to grieve. You can't just go, you

39:20

know, pick myself up and dust myself off and

39:22

just keep on moving. Yeah, that's never

39:25

true. No, some knock you on your ass. People

39:28

say that. I feel like it's, or maybe

39:30

it is true, but I feel like there's

39:32

a much longer process of like, though

39:34

we don't, I like

39:36

what you're doing. I think it's really important

39:38

because as we were alluding

39:41

to, there's a real hesitance to

39:44

talk about hardship

39:46

and failure

39:48

here. Everybody

39:51

wants to talk about winners. It's

39:54

hard to talk, it's hard to

39:56

speak honestly. It's also

39:58

initial. It's also additionally challenging,

40:01

I think, to talk about

40:05

failure when you've had great success.

40:08

Right. Well, yeah, people say, what are you

40:10

doing talking about this? Yeah. Like,

40:12

easy for you to talk about these failures because

40:14

generally you have had a happy ending. Yes.

40:18

So guilty, whatever. I mean, I

40:21

can only speak from where I speak

40:23

from, from myself. So this is something

40:25

that interests me. And

40:28

I'm very interested in shame around failure

40:30

and shame in general. Shame

40:32

is being such a limiting... I'm

40:35

looking for the evolutionary positive

40:37

nature of shame. And when I look at

40:39

it, I say, okay, well, we do have

40:42

to all live together. So there are some

40:44

acts that

40:46

we decide that

40:48

you got to get kicked out of the herd now,

40:50

because you've done... Right. Or

40:52

at least you have to show the herd that you get it.

40:56

So okay, I get shame in

40:58

that way. But

41:00

I think we live with so much shame

41:02

over so many things in our lives. And

41:04

I think some of that

41:07

has to do with the feelings of shame

41:09

around failure and things like that. So

41:11

I'm just like, I don't know what I'm doing.

41:13

I'm just trying to have conversations. I'm no expert.

41:17

I like that. I think about shame a lot too.

41:20

And like, just

41:22

kind of throwing off the yoke

41:24

of shame is very

41:26

difficult. It can be very difficult.

41:29

So hard. That's a really hard one for

41:31

people. Well, also

41:33

you're in the public eye, so

41:35

it just seems

41:37

multiplied when that's happening. Well,

41:42

also because people want to reach out and they

41:44

want to put shame on you. Like

41:47

very actively want you

41:50

to feel ashamed or they want to like share

41:53

their own feeling of shame with you and

41:55

really spread it around. To

41:58

be very... You have to

42:00

be pretty careful with your own heart and your mind.

42:03

Yeah. Try to stay strong, but you're

42:05

going to feel it. It goes in. You just

42:07

have to... It's such a hard feeling. It's

42:09

a hard feeling to deal with. I mean,

42:11

guilt is one thing, I guess, but

42:14

shame is another. Shame is another. Shame

42:16

is another. Shame is more of like a...

42:19

It's like your being. Guilt is maybe

42:21

something you did, something you said. It's

42:24

an action that you can maybe apologize

42:26

for, seek forgiveness, atone for, whatever, but

42:28

shame is more like you are bad.

42:32

You are just overall

42:34

bad. You are wrong. Look at

42:36

you repeating these choices. Like, what?

42:39

Look at you with these patterns. Did you even think about what

42:42

you were going to order for dinner? How shameful. How

42:45

shameful. You're just sitting in a

42:47

cold room eating a brick of

42:50

low mane. I've

42:52

done it. I can see it. I

42:56

think it's very convenient. It

42:59

is convenient. You just slice it

43:01

into little quadrants. Yeah.

43:03

A cube. A cube for... A little

43:06

nutrition cubes. In my lunchbox. It's

43:08

a cube. Why

43:11

did you... Tell me about why you

43:13

decided to start directing. I feel like

43:15

that is... That

43:17

is next level organization,

43:19

next level decision making. Oh,

43:23

no. No. See, here's the great thing about

43:25

directing. Oh, tell me. I

43:29

feel like you'll have to direct at some

43:32

point very soon, like tomorrow. I

43:34

will get into that when you come on my

43:36

podcast. Yes. Before

43:38

I directed my first film 20

43:40

years ago or whatever, I read

43:42

a book by Walter Murch, who

43:45

was a brilliant editor. He edited

43:47

all those 70s movies that you love. And

43:50

he became a director himself. But he said, because

43:52

when I was prepping this movie, like you just

43:54

said, I was thinking, I've got to make a

43:57

million decisions. This is not my best.

44:00

strength here. I've

44:02

got to know everything. And then I read

44:04

this quote from Murch where he said, the

44:06

director is the immune system of the film.

44:10

And I realized all I have

44:12

to do is stand like a hockey goalie. You're

44:14

Canadian. I'll try and make the, I'll talk about

44:16

this in ways that you can understand. Now I

44:18

comprehend. And everybody working on

44:20

the film has got a puck that

44:22

they want to put in the goal,

44:24

like production designer, actors, the writer. And

44:27

it's just my job to go

44:29

good idea, pass, bad idea,

44:32

stop. I'm protecting the

44:34

health of the movie. But all I need to say

44:36

is yes and no. I don't need to know it.

44:38

I just need to have my gut to say yes

44:40

and no. I think that's

44:42

good. So you're more a

44:45

curator of other people's

44:47

thoughts and ideas. If you hire

44:50

correctly, you know, if you have the balls to

44:52

hire people that are better than you

44:55

at those things that you do. I

44:58

like to surround myself with people who are much

45:00

better than me at everything. Do you do that?

45:05

I want to, you know? Yeah,

45:07

I don't know. I think it's

45:09

a good trade on somebody. It's

45:11

a very strong trade. I

45:14

don't know if I have it, but I fantasize that I

45:17

have it. Are you good at

45:19

knowing what you don't know and

45:22

being willing to admit it? Oh,

45:24

yeah. That's good. Yeah, I don't mind

45:26

being wrong. I can be

45:29

wrong. Do you? Okay, I

45:31

did. I read that you

45:33

consider yourself a lazy vegetarian.

45:36

Are you still a lazy vegetarian? Yeah. You

45:38

read a book. You read Diet for a New

45:40

America in college and it changed your life. Yeah,

45:44

it did. How did it change your

45:46

life? Because I just talked to Nick Offerman and

45:48

we talked all about like where food comes from.

45:51

Well, that was it. I'm so

45:53

curious. It was the

45:55

suffering of the animals that really got to me.

45:58

Right. to

52:00

support independent cinema

52:04

because it's critical.

52:07

There's just too many conglomerates

52:09

making content.

52:11

And if we want interesting

52:14

stories, we actually,

52:16

it's our job as consumers to

52:19

explore smaller

52:22

scale storytelling. Yeah, I mean,

52:24

it's smaller scale, but it's

52:27

like the ideas can be big

52:29

in a small movie. Yeah, of

52:32

course. And that's what I think

52:35

we've kind of forgotten, that we

52:37

think these movies have to look

52:39

so big in

52:42

order to be big. I wish they would

52:44

just take the budget of one, I mean,

52:47

a lot of people are saying this now, but

52:49

I do have felt it forever. Take the budget

52:51

of one superhero movie and make

52:55

50 independent movies. Yeah. Yeah,

52:58

if the head of Warner Brothers did that,

53:00

that would be a real interesting move, wouldn't

53:02

it? It would be a very interesting move.

53:04

It would be the correct move. It's like

53:06

building people crave

53:10

stories. They don't

53:13

crave movies written

53:15

by eight different people and

53:17

an AI bot. They really

53:19

don't, in my

53:22

opinion. Anyway. I agree. Okay, well, thank

53:24

you. Thank you for letting me in.

53:26

All right. Yeah, there you go. This

53:28

was awesome. Have a great day. Nice to see

53:30

you again. So nice. Always a pleasure. That

53:38

was David Duchovny, and I had no

53:40

choice but to look up one thing.

53:42

He mentioned tall poppy syndrome. And it

53:44

turns out that is a saying from

53:46

Australia and New Zealand referring to criticizing

53:48

people who might be

53:50

seen as too successful, like

53:53

taking them down a peg, but

53:56

more beautiful and pastoral.

53:59

As always,