0:04

Here's some stories about

0:07

show we made about

0:10

a bunch of doctor nurses and stories,

0:19

So get around here. Are yetto

0:22

around here?

0:29

Hey, everybody, welcome to a special

0:31

episode of Fake Doctor's

0:33

Real Friends. We assembled the gang here a bit because

0:36

we want to talk about black

0:38

face in Scrubs. There

0:41

were three episodes in particular over

0:44

the years that had instances

0:46

of black face. One was Me in

0:48

a fantasy being Donald, one was Sarah

0:51

in a fantasy being Donald, and the third was

0:53

Donald and I attending a

0:55

black fraternity party, him

0:57

and white face and me and black face. So

1:00

I think we all have a lot we want to say. There's a lot going

1:02

on in the world right now, and um

1:05

this I think it's very good that these discussions

1:07

are all coming up. Not to use a hackneyed phrase,

1:10

but it does feel like a teachable moment

1:12

for us all. And I thought, Bill,

1:14

you might want to start off since you led

1:17

the charge on this and and called the

1:19

studio and said you want the

1:21

episodes taken down, So do

1:23

you want to just first talk about

1:25

your decision to do that and you're thinking behind

1:28

it. Look, the most important reason

1:30

I wanted to do this, besides the

1:32

fact that you know, I just felt stupid

1:35

and bummed out about it, and

1:37

it's my show, and you know, I'm like, fucking

1:39

if it makes me feel that crappy, I

1:41

can, I can, you know, I can take that

1:43

out as I did see some

1:45

things directed at

1:48

Donald and Zach and Sarah

1:50

and everybody should know that the reason that

1:52

words showrunner exists in

1:55

television is because you're

1:58

the gatekeeper and anything that gets allowed on

2:00

a show you have to ultimately take

2:02

responsibility for. So, first

2:04

off, super sorry that

2:06

any of you guys had to deal with any stuff

2:09

because, you know, ultimately, even

2:11

though we're all friends and it was a

2:14

super creative and kind of reciprocal

2:16

environment with you know, you guys, still ultimately

2:19

at the end of the day did and and

2:21

uh, we're receptive to doing whatever, you know,

2:23

stuff we told you about. And then the second thing

2:26

you asked, it's a good starting place because

2:29

what's so interesting is it

2:31

starts like ignorance. You know, is even

2:34

now I was reading

2:36

stuff, you know, just the last

2:39

couple of weeks, um when I first

2:41

became aware of this is and you know it's because

2:44

of the podcast Donald Zack. You're revisiting old

2:46

episodes and it's

2:48

uh, you know, I want to make sure we never sound like we're making

2:50

excuses. But one of the jokes amongst us is that

2:53

none of us have ever really watched this show. When

2:55

you were on a show, you make it, you film it, you

2:57

you shoot it, and you see it on TV, and none of us have really

2:59

watched it. And for me, fifteen

3:02

fourteen years and they're not ten years since I

3:04

saw the finale, but fifteen years since I saw any of these

3:06

episodes. And you guys

3:08

saw some stuff and you're like, oh man, you

3:10

know there's some issues stuff in there. You couldn't do today.

3:13

It didn't feel great and the Disney

3:15

was really cool. We didn't get asked to do this, you

3:17

know. I called him up and said, uh,

3:20

um, hey, is a bunch of episodes

3:22

have black face in it and I want to get rid

3:24

of them. And uh, It's

3:26

very interesting because the PC

3:29

cancel culture whatever on Twitter is

3:31

like, why did you pull the whole episodes? Why don't

3:33

you just edit those moments out and put

3:35

them back on? And I said, you

3:38

know, to one person, I'm like, yeah, well it's a

3:40

pandemic. I don't really have an editing facility

3:42

up right now. And I'll probably do

3:44

that, you know, but the first thing I wanted to do is

3:46

get them off TVs. That bumped me out

3:49

personally, and we can talk about why if

3:51

you guys want to. You know, it just made me feel

3:53

shitty. I want to say

3:55

one of the biggest night Naivea Tay things that

3:57

I have about it, and I'm and I'm very sorry

3:59

for for my participation, and I just want

4:01

to first talk about the ones we're both Sarah and I were dressing

4:04

up as donald and fantasies. Is

4:07

that I really, frankly

4:09

at the time delineated

4:11

in my mind between the traditional

4:15

black face that we've seen. I remember when when

4:17

Ted Danson did that black face thing, and I think

4:19

it was ninety three or so. I

4:21

remember being being like shocked. I

4:23

remember being like, what the funk was that guy thinking?

4:25

And I was just out of high school, you

4:28

know, because he had done the you

4:30

know, the one we saw growing

4:33

up and back when yeah it was back when

4:35

he was dating Whoopi Goldberg. Yeah, he was dating Whipie

4:37

Goldberg, who comes up a lot on this podcast. Um,

4:40

and I remember she was laughing at it, and remember being like I remember

4:42

even just as a as a seventeen year old or whatever, being

4:44

like, what the funk is that guy thinking? But I never

4:46

when we were doing this, I'm embarrassed

4:49

to say now, I never equated it. I

4:51

was like, I, oh, it's a fantasy where I'm

4:53

trying to be my best friend, and

4:56

I never thought it was the same thing. Um,

4:59

it took a while. It's go while. I took about when Donald

5:01

I started the podcast. I mean, obviously I

5:03

cringed a little bit about it in years, but when not Donald

5:05

I first started the podcast, he mentioned, he

5:07

goes, I mean, we did black face on this show,

5:10

and I and I cringed just to hear Donald,

5:12

I didn't even tell you this, Donald, but to hear you say it out

5:14

loud, it really made me feel

5:16

so shitty and embarrassed and

5:20

um and and I and I

5:22

just feel stupid that at the time I didn't say

5:24

to you, Bill. I mean again, I like, I appreciate you taking

5:26

responsibility and going you know, it was

5:28

my show, but I didn't say to you at the time, hey

5:31

this is wrong, Hey we shouldn't do this. I I could

5:33

have easily spoken up, but I didn't.

5:35

I didn't see it. And that's how the climates change.

5:37

You know, where everybody used to be able to where

5:40

any joke was you know, was

5:42

passible as a joke as long as it

5:44

was meant to make

5:47

people laugh. Nowadays

5:49

there are boundaries on what you can you

5:52

know, do as far as jokes going.

5:54

I know a lot of comedians and stuff like that

5:56

are dealing with that issue as well.

5:59

You know, how do you make something that's hurt

6:01

so many people? How do you use

6:03

that as comedy? Is the argument

6:06

that everyone's having having now, and

6:08

I think people can still do it. It It depends on the voice,

6:11

you know. Um, well, yeah, I agree

6:13

with you. I feel personally a

6:15

lot of people feel this way as well. Uh.

6:17

Dave Chappelle is one of those artists who can

6:19

go out and talk about issues that we

6:22

all kind of have. Some people have

6:24

pain when it's involved, and

6:26

people will laugh still, you know what I mean. I

6:30

I you know, I just feel like, you know,

6:32

I used to watch movies when I was a kid that

6:35

with with stars that I

6:38

look up to, like, you know, Eddie

6:40

Murphy movie really comes to mind when I think about

6:43

this, and it's you know which movie

6:45

about trading places. Dude. It's one

6:47

of the funniest scenes in the whole movie to

6:50

me, when I was a kid, I me and my friends

6:52

used to do it together where

6:55

dan Ackroyd walks on the train dressed as

6:57

a Jamaican rastafari, you know what

6:59

I mean, and he's ain'to his face black and

7:01

they cut into him putting

7:03

the makeup on, and he's

7:06

using shoe polish and ship like that to put it

7:08

on when he walked into the thing, and I just

7:10

remember laughing my ass off. And I know

7:12

if that came up now, I'd be like, oh, ship,

7:15

and I wouldn't laugh because now

7:17

I know, thanks to Joel, our producer,

7:20

I'm way more educated than I was before

7:22

I knew black face was bad, you know what I mean. And

7:24

when Sarah and Zach put on makeup

7:27

to look like me,

7:30

I didn't look at it as a racist

7:32

thing. I looked at it as, Oh, we're trying to tell

7:34

a joke that he fantasizes

7:36

he wishes he was me, and she fantasized,

7:39

and he fantasizes that his girlfriend, right,

7:43

you know what I mean. But then when you go and you listen

7:46

to where all of this comes from and

7:48

and what Jim Crow is or was,

7:51

And you know, I'm gonna be honest

7:53

with you. I knew Jim Crow was something

7:56

from the South that oppressed black people,

7:58

but I thought it was a white I'm be honest with you.

8:00

I thought it was a white man named Jim

8:02

Crow who was just a fucking you know

8:04

who made it so people couldn't go into

8:08

into into and performing places

8:10

like that because people be like, oh, it's the Jim Crow South.

8:12

I had no idea. I had no

8:15

idea that it was Jim Crow was

8:17

a white man dressed up as

8:20

a black man, trying to

8:22

show America this

8:25

is how stupid black people are. And it goes

8:27

so deep for me that now I

8:29

can't even watch Dumbo now because

8:32

the crows in Dumbo are

8:34

crows, and they're supposed to be black, and

8:36

they've got all of this slick talk

8:38

and this talking job. I don't see,

8:41

you know, I don't seem just about everything

8:43

all of this ship. Now it's like, oh,

8:46

I know where it comes from. And the fact that their

8:48

crows doing it and the fucking

8:50

dude's name was Jim Crow is even

8:52

more of a mind fun for me. So it's like, how

8:55

you know, and and this is what Disney was using

8:57

at the time to educate children

9:00

on how black people were subtly and

9:02

it was like, it's like, holy shit, it

9:04

starts with ignorance, right, Uh.

9:07

And you know, we can talk about the history of it because

9:09

I'm more educated

9:11

than I ever thought I would be now just

9:14

but burying myself in reading and stuff. But

9:16

you guys might have even noticed this is where ignorance starts.

9:19

We differentiated between kind

9:22

of that Jim Crow like what you

9:24

remember Al Jolson almost a shoe polished

9:26

black face thing, and we did

9:29

that bit once on the show

9:31

with the intention of showing how idiotic

9:33

it was even now talking to

9:35

other view Yeah, we did it that one time with

9:37

Turk and j D when Turk had

9:40

white makeup on j D had black makeup on. J D

9:42

got his ass kicked. I'm like, no, we did it

9:44

the other two times that Elliott and j D were

9:46

both made up to look like Turk and

9:49

none of us had associated those is the same

9:51

thing, you know what I mean? And uh

9:54

and uh, you know, I

9:56

think we were talking a little bit about it. You

9:58

almost we almost thought, I

10:01

think that we had, in a bad

10:03

way a free pass to

10:05

not have those thoughts back then because we were so

10:08

fucking proud of ourselves for doing, you

10:10

know, very diverse show in

10:12

front of them behind the camera, great

10:14

black and white friendship that exists as a real

10:17

black and white friendship, great interracial couple

10:19

who are stars of the show, you know, and

10:22

so uh, it was almost a

10:25

block of arrogance of like, oh, we're

10:27

so good in what we're portraying and

10:29

doing and showing, you know, we could

10:31

never venture into muddy waters. And

10:34

even now with that same ignorance,

10:36

you know, we never really connected

10:39

the two of those things until now.

10:41

And you do the reading, it's not any different,

10:43

you know. And I'm gonna I'm over talking,

10:45

and then I'm gonna shut up and Donald and everybody

10:47

talk. And I do want to say. One of the things that bothers

10:49

me about the Internet that that's

10:51

happening is there's a big both sides is some thing,

10:54

you know, And I'm getting tons

10:56

of little connection tissue when I read now, going,

10:58

well, you're gonna pull that issue. You where that

11:01

episode where Donald plays cal Turk and as

11:03

a white guy insurance agent, I'm like,

11:05

no, I'm not because as

11:07

a white guy that does not based in any systemic

11:10

racism for me or history

11:12

or any negativity. I just don't. I just for

11:14

me. I just wanted to separate that as well. I

11:16

find that kind of argument you to be

11:19

so counterproductive and ridiculous. Sorry, Donald,

11:21

No, it's so good dude. Look man, first

11:24

of all, I applaud you for saying,

11:26

you know what this bothers me. I want to take this out,

11:28

you know what I mean, and educating yourself

11:30

like this was an educational thing for me too,

11:33

because when we made it, like my

11:35

whole idea of this whole thing was like, well, look,

11:37

if we could see g this opportunity at

11:39

the time, it would be my face on

11:42

Sarah's body. And that's how we would have got around

11:44

all of that stuff. Just to remind everyone,

11:46

Donald, just remind everyone in the context of that, because

11:48

just with the Saurah one, for example, it

11:50

was, as I recall, j D was

11:52

fantasizing what if his girlfriend

11:55

and his best friend were one person? Right,

11:57

That's how he came right, That's one of the one

11:59

of the three lines show was that you

12:01

loved Turk almost even

12:03

at the end. Remember is is you

12:05

tell Elliott when you finally marry or I love you

12:07

more than Turk, and it's the biggest thing you've ever said. And

12:10

when you're living with Elliott, you know you the

12:12

only way it could be any better is if she was Turk.

12:14

You love him so much, right, right? Sorry, so sorry,

12:16

don't go back to your c So my whole, my whole thing

12:18

was like, oh, well, if if we were now, we

12:21

would do a CG situation and

12:23

then we wouldn't have to paint anybody.

12:25

But when you do the research

12:28

and you look back at it, Bill,

12:30

You're absolutely right. It comes. It's

12:32

a systemic thing. It comes from a

12:34

place of people

12:36

being very fucked up to black

12:39

people towards the end of slavery,

12:41

to dehumanize them. And

12:44

so it's like it's like you're

12:46

caught between a rock and a

12:48

hard place. For me, I'm like, I'm not

12:50

hurt by it. I'm more disappointed

12:53

that it happened. But I also believe

12:56

in comedy too, right, So you

12:58

know, there are things that some of

13:00

my favorite comedians saying things that

13:03

are in some of my favorite movies that

13:05

I've laughed out loud at and

13:07

now I'm finding myself having to check

13:09

that, like wait, hold up, you know, let's

13:12

before we start laughing at all of the things

13:14

that we found funny in the past. Let's journey

13:17

back to where it started at. And

13:20

that's the only that's the reason why for

13:22

me. Uh, I'm i'm I'm

13:24

I'm very I'm I'm Bill. I'll be honest

13:26

with you. I'm proud of you for saying, you know what, this bothered me. I'm

13:28

taking this out. Uh, you

13:31

know it's not it's not you can't do that,

13:34

you know, I don't. I don't want to revolve around

13:37

like, uh, we did good.

13:39

We're would be so proud of you

13:41

know what you mean. But no, but that's not that's

13:43

that's that's not what I mean by it. You know,

13:46

I feel like you felt, oh shit, this

13:48

is an issue and it's not all right with

13:50

me. So I want to remove it simple

13:53

go the way to simplify it. Donald

13:56

is for everybody, I think is

13:59

and by the way, you know, there's always a slippery

14:01

slope in the arts of what

14:04

you know you're allowed to remove, keeping, et

14:07

cetera. But for me, and I'm

14:09

not saying it's right for everybody. Uh,

14:11

it's my show. I'm really proud of it. And

14:14

um, those moments nobody

14:17

pressured me, and those moments make me feel like ship make

14:19

me feel stupid and uh

14:22

and by the way, there's gonna be other moments in the show

14:24

that make other people angry

14:26

and go you want to remove those And I'm going back through

14:29

and watching the shows. And it's nothing

14:31

that has bothered me as much as these three things. You

14:33

know what I mean? This isn't and

14:35

so for a good rule, Yeah, it's

14:37

what's the big deal, I'm gonna pull three things out that make

14:40

me feel like ship because now entertainment

14:43

um exists in perpetuity, and

14:46

uh, I should be allowed to do

14:48

that. You know, it's not a big deal. I'm

14:50

glad you mentioned the thing about Donald

14:52

being a white guy because I've I've seen that

14:54

a lot too. And there's and

14:57

and I think that it's important

14:59

to differentiate that

15:01

there was not

15:03

this horrible history of

15:06

people who were persecuted

15:08

and and and and mocked and

15:10

and and and made fun of. It's it's a

15:12

completely different thing. And I I doesn't

15:14

have the stigma that that this

15:17

has. I can hear Eddie Murphy's

15:19

white guy voice in my head at

15:22

any point in time and laugh hysterically. It's

15:24

one of them. I

15:28

actually think it was one of the best. I think it's one of the

15:30

best kits of all time. But

15:33

Donald and Donald you

15:35

were particularly hilarious doing that

15:37

as well. I do want to talk about the other one

15:40

for a second, because there were the two that we started talking

15:42

about where it worse sour in a fantasy

15:44

was Donald and then I was Donald in a fantasy.

15:47

The other one I do remember I gotta

15:49

be honest, feeling really uncomfortable

15:51

doing And for those of you listening who don't remember,

15:54

Donald has the idea that we're going to go to a I

15:56

think it was called a black and white party at a black

15:58

fraternity and and

16:01

he said, I go, are you something I'm I'm paraphrasing.

16:04

I watched it. You want the lines because I watched

16:06

it to prepare phils, and it's you

16:08

go you you say, just so you know, you say,

16:10

are you sure this is gonna be okay? And

16:12

Donald's like, I'm I'm going

16:14

as you. You're going as me. As long as you're with

16:17

me, it'll be fine. They're gonna think it's funny.

16:19

And so I remember reading this

16:21

and being uncomfortable about it, and I didn't

16:24

I remember not wanting to do it, to be honest, but

16:26

I didn't want to disappoint anyone. Everyone

16:28

seemed to think it was funny. And again,

16:30

I now, as an established

16:33

forty five year old man, I I think

16:35

I probably would have reacted differently. At the time, I

16:37

was kind of like, oh, well, I'm gonna go along

16:39

with with the joke. And I also

16:41

remember being so terrified because

16:44

keep in mind, there were all these black young

16:47

men who were playing the college kids. And

16:50

I said to Scott Harris at the time,

16:52

who was a black man, and are one of

16:54

our assistant directors. I had this

16:57

this this makeup on, and I said, I'm

16:59

so uncomfortable Scott

17:01

that these men are not gonna know what the joke is.

17:03

The joke is that JD gets his ass kicked and they

17:05

throw him out a second story window. But

17:08

I said, you gotta. I remember

17:10

being really nervous and saying, like, please

17:12

tell all these men who were the extras,

17:15

uh, what the outcome is. What the joke of is

17:17

that I'm that I'm my character is an idiot and then they're gonna

17:19

throw me out a window. And I remember

17:21

walking up to that set and

17:25

and feeling really, really uncomfortable. I

17:27

do think at the time I thought the joke was funny

17:29

that Donald leaving me. I remember he saw like

17:31

a pretty girl, and he goes with the ideas that we ring the

17:33

doorbell, and then I'm supposed to

17:35

be next to my friend, and then he goes Gina or

17:38

something, and then he walks off what happened

17:40

last night? And then yeah, and he leaves

17:42

me. The guys open the door, they pull me and beat the ship

17:44

out of me off camera and throw me out the second story window.

17:47

Um. But I remember at the time feeling uh

17:50

super super uncomfortable. But I'm ashamed

17:52

at myself for not standing up and coming

17:54

to you, Bill. I feel like if I'd come to you, you would have said

17:57

we don't have to do this. But I didn't. I was a whimp

17:59

about it. I well, you know, it's a good

18:01

lesson for creators of any kind.

18:03

This is what I've been thinking out about a lot.

18:06

It's really important to me that on a

18:08

show that you guys. One of the thing reasons

18:10

I think this show worked is every

18:12

cast member felt, in

18:14

my head would always come and go

18:17

I think this character would say something more like this,

18:20

or I think that it would be funnier if

18:22

he or she did this, or I think Carli,

18:24

I think it'd be better if she in turk,

18:26

you know, instead of being sexy or like this here.

18:29

And we had that kind of open collaboration even

18:32

in that environment. Young

18:34

actors and actresses so

18:36

don't want to be people that put

18:39

a stick in the spokes with the boss, you

18:42

know what I mean, and don't want to be the person

18:44

that says, are we sure we should

18:46

be doing this that even

18:48

if you think you're the most open minded boss,

18:51

showrunner, movie director,

18:53

anything in the world, when there's

18:55

a differentiation in power, people

18:58

aren't going to always say I'm

19:00

not doing this, I don't want to do this. And

19:02

that's a weird realization

19:05

for you. If you perceive yourself

19:07

as like the most open minded you know,

19:10

of course they would say that they know they're never gonna get

19:12

fired, in trouble, punished, have less

19:14

material next week, et cetera. It's just

19:16

not the way humans work. And it was a big

19:19

kind of eye opener for me. The thing I would

19:21

tell you, guys, is the dynamic I was

19:23

just talking about is even more prevalent in writer's

19:25

rooms because they're those are the people that you're

19:27

directly their boss. And one of the hard

19:30

realizations is even in the most

19:33

healthy writer's room, i'd

19:35

still say white writers are the majority

19:38

in there. You know, even when there are

19:40

all sorts of people of color, you still don't

19:42

want to be the one in a writer's

19:45

room, the one, either white

19:47

writer or person of color, that goes, hey,

19:49

boss, that thing that other people are laughing

19:52

at, we shouldn't do it because you know, to

19:54

me, one of the things I feel shitty

19:56

about was that, you know Scrubs

19:58

that the last episode that did that as

20:01

fifteen years ago. It's

20:03

not that long, you know what I mean? Dumb Dumbo.

20:06

Hear me out, Dumbo was Joel

20:09

Elds Dumbo holds that movie roughly.

20:12

I want to say, let me get you an accurate right,

20:15

but look, you you know my point being, do

20:17

you is an interesting question because you

20:19

said I can't watch anymore. I used to love it.

20:21

Is it different for you if

20:23

you go something is truly a product of

20:25

the time something we're talking, you know, so

20:27

they're gone with the wind argument, you know what I mean? We

20:29

we all know that there's still racist tropes

20:32

in it, and there's a lot of people

20:34

they would argue to the Dumbo's

20:37

one just got that from Joel. But

20:39

you know, to me, I'm harsher

20:41

on us because it is not that old, do you

20:43

know what I mean? And to

20:46

me, I do make excuses in my head. I'm asking

20:48

you honestly, because by the way, this ship all makes me super uncomfortable,

20:51

Like are you are you gonna be able to watch Dumbo again?

20:53

And and and go with your kids

20:56

and and have go Hey, it's

20:58

product at the times. There's certain things I don't But

21:01

here's here's the crazy thing. Bill.

21:04

That was my favorite part of the movie, you

21:06

know what I mean. That moment was my favorite

21:08

part of the movie. And so now it's

21:10

like, holy shit, you know what I

21:12

mean. I was at

21:15

one point when they did the live

21:17

action version of it, I was like, man, you know what I missed?

21:19

I missed the crows. I feel like an asshole

21:21

and an idiot for that, you know what I mean, Because

21:24

I wasn't looking at it as I wasn't.

21:26

I wasn't looking at it as that's racist.

21:29

I was looking at it as that was the best

21:31

part of the movie. When I was a kid, I loved

21:33

that part of the movie. Look when I

21:35

say I'm ignorant, I was gonna say I feel

21:37

I'm fairly well educated. I was never that

21:39

book smart. But Zack and I were

21:42

random. We're talking about this. Not only

21:44

did I like you not know that, I just let

21:46

you have Jim Crow laws. I didn't know Jim Crow was a

21:48

person with some white dude performing

21:50

as a minstrel. I had never

21:52

heard in my entire life of

21:54

June tenth until I heard it from a

21:56

stand up comic like five years ago. And

21:59

I'm like, that's a in And he was

22:01

talking about how oh hey, other

22:03

news flash. You know, Texas

22:05

didn't stop slavery when

22:07

the war was over, And that's one, you know,

22:09

one of the things that weighs into this date. You know they

22:12

took a second. I didn't know about

22:14

Black Wall Street, their Tulsa masker until

22:16

I watched Watchman on television.

22:19

I mean, and and uh

22:21

so, educationally, ignorance

22:23

is is crazy. It's not built into our system

22:25

any of this ship. Well that's the that's the other thing

22:27

that you know, black people have been talking about for a

22:30

long time. Look, you could teach history, but teach my

22:32

history too, you know what I mean? You know what I

22:34

mean for the longest,

22:37

you know, black history

22:39

is a small part of the textbooks that we read.

22:41

When we're you know, you learn more about the Confederacy

22:43

and you learn more about you know, that

22:45

stuff before you know anything about

22:48

what happened to Africans coming

22:50

to America and being you

22:53

know, being slaves

22:55

and turned into slaves and stuff like that. So it's

22:57

only natural that nobody knows about

22:59

these days. Nobody know, you know what I mean, these

23:01

are stains in America's history regards

23:05

the same. That's the same, Sarah.

23:07

As far as like what's being taught in schools,

23:10

it's the same, and it's and you know, it's really

23:12

it's terrible. It's not taught in Canada.

23:14

It certainly wasn't when I was growing up, and

23:16

that needs to change. And that's why we're here right

23:19

now, you know what I mean. One of the things

23:21

that's coming out of this movement that's really good is

23:23

that a lot of us who thought

23:26

we were knowledgeable

23:29

are able to call ourselves out and

23:31

go, I don't know ship I didn't I

23:33

didn't know anything about Juneteenth. I

23:35

agree with Bill Watchman, which Joel has

23:38

written about extensively educated

23:40

me on a lot of history.

23:43

And also just two documentaries

23:45

I just recently watched, which

23:48

I highly recommend people watched, was something I

23:50

just blew my mind about the criminal justice system

23:52

in this country, Done Right. Yeah,

23:55

and another one called Time,

23:57

which is a series about the bail system incarceration

24:01

in this country. I digressed just

24:03

to say that in the spirit of what Bill is saying, I

24:05

feel like there's uh

24:07

again. This is a moment where we can be

24:09

educating ourselves and learning. Another

24:12

thing that thought that came to my mind was that over

24:14

the years, Donald and I have cringed at

24:17

people dressing up as Turk and j D for

24:19

Halloween, and I've even

24:22

gone out. I've even gone out of my way to say

24:24

to people, look, hold on, if

24:26

you're gonna go out dressed up as Turk this Halloween,

24:29

that's great. Just no black face,

24:31

you know what I mean? And I out of my way

24:34

to say this, and every year they tag us and

24:36

we we cringe, and I can't believe people

24:38

are still doing it. And then I had to call myself

24:40

out and go, they're doing it because

24:43

I did it, because yeah, that's what That's

24:45

what somebody Somebody said that to me.

24:48

Somebody said that to me. Somebody was like, let me just finish

24:50

the thought they were so I I last night,

24:52

I was like, I was like tossing and turning, going a

24:54

little bit of eureka moment. I was like, that's why

24:57

all those fucking people probably did it. They

25:00

all that it was okay because we had

25:02

done it, and that's really fucking

25:04

embarrassing to me. Well, yeah,

25:06

that's that's I remember. I

25:09

posted that. I said, look, I feel like

25:11

I have to remind you people that when you

25:13

go out this Halloween, if

25:15

you're gonna dress up as Turk and you're not

25:17

African American, it's not all right to go

25:20

black face. And somebody tweeted me back and I

25:22

was like, yeah, but Turk, but Donald, you

25:24

did this. And they showed a picture of you

25:26

and me, me dressed in white face and you

25:28

dressed in black face, and was like, well what about

25:30

this? And I couldn't retort because I was like,

25:32

holy sh it, that's right. We did do this and

25:35

that's how And I didn't remember that we had

25:37

done that until that moment.

25:39

You know. So there's like these kids that watched the show

25:41

that like that we This

25:43

is the thing that makes me cringe and feel horrible

25:45

and and and so regretful

25:48

is that if we contributed

25:50

in any way to x

25:52

amount of young people being like, oh it's

25:55

okay because they did it. That's

25:57

what I truly regret

25:59

and I'm so apologetic

26:01

about. Yeah, I'm yeah, you know, Bill,

26:03

Regardless of how much flak

26:05

you want to take for this, it's still we were still in

26:08

the moment, and we were still there and

26:10

we you know what I mean. And no, look

26:12

the painful the all of us on the

26:15

call. I thought it was funny

26:17

as ship, and we were doing we thought we were funny as

26:19

ship. And it's the kind of the arrogance

26:21

that comes with success. And

26:24

you know, man, it's it's Uh.

26:27

I guess I like to think the uncomfortable

26:29

conversations are good

26:32

and uh, and people can

26:34

say the ship they want to say to me, I'm

26:36

beating myself up plenty. I also do want

26:39

to talk about too. I

26:41

really respect to you guys all for doing this uh.

26:43

And Joel, I appreciate you kind of leading us along

26:46

here too with with questions and articles and stuff

26:48

like that. I'm really grateful. But the

26:50

uh, there's also this wave

26:52

right now as artists and as actors and actresses

26:55

and writers directors that

26:57

you know, people are going like, uh

27:00

PC, culture is gonna it's gonna ruin art.

27:02

It's gonna ruin art, you know, and it's not. Art's

27:04

gonna be fine. Okay, is

27:06

the one thing I want to say. Art's gonna be And

27:09

I'm so old, you know we're talking about we

27:11

feel uncomfortable about that all comes

27:13

off this. You know. When I first got into writing comedy,

27:15

you guys wouldn't none of the four of

27:17

you would believe it. But nine

27:19

of the ten writers rooms you would walk into,

27:21

if there were eight writers, it would

27:24

be seven white dudes and

27:26

one woman. Okay. And

27:29

even though there's still tons of way to go, you

27:31

know, as far as uh equal representation

27:34

for not only black writers

27:36

on shows, but people of color running

27:39

creating their own shows, arts

27:42

better for it, you know, My point

27:44

being, at every stage

27:46

of my career there's been some version

27:49

of this, and the end result is

27:51

not that arts worse, because

27:53

I think TV especially is

27:55

in a great error right now. You know. For the

27:58

content, art gets better for

28:00

it, you know, And so don't

28:02

beat yourselves up, keep beating me up,

28:04

because I should have. I was older

28:07

than you and knew more than you know.

28:09

Bill, I mean, I I do, I do,

28:11

I I'm I'm so sorry. I feel

28:13

like I shouldn't have done it. I feel like, you know, it's

28:15

not funny now. It wasn't funny then,

28:18

and I recognize that it

28:21

hurt people, and I would never ever

28:23

do it again. I wish I could

28:27

take it back. The easiest

28:29

thing to say, by the way, because a lot of people

28:31

you know have a lot of different opinions, is

28:34

it's my show, tough ship if I but if

28:36

I so, if I hurt your feelings, I'm

28:39

super super sorry. And if you're

28:41

one of those people that you're like, it didn't hurt my feelings and

28:43

shouldn't go, I'm glad that you feel

28:45

that way. You're welcome to but tough shit, it's

28:47

uh, it's it's my show. I get

28:50

to do what I want in this occasion. Look

28:52

back, I know all you three as people. Man,

28:54

you're all incredibly open minded,

28:57

incredibly philanthropic, probably

29:00

mind, and we're all able to still be family

29:02

and close because of it. So again,

29:05

I'm probably over talking. It just bumps me out when I

29:07

hear people beating themselves over something that was my

29:09

fault. Well, I think it's it's the good

29:11

news is that this has inspired us

29:14

to educate ourselves and

29:16

and and to continue to learn

29:19

and to not be uh

29:21

arrogant about continuing to learn.

29:24

And well also it's it's where

29:26

we are right now as a as a society,

29:29

as a pivotal point. And I feel like, you

29:31

know, more than ever my

29:33

voice uh

29:36

can help you know what I mean. And it's

29:38

something that you know, I

29:41

do want to talk about now. I'm not gonna lie. For a

29:43

long period of time, I was very

29:46

apprehensive and afraid to

29:48

talk about stuff because I you

29:50

know, my fan base and all of that ship.

29:53

But this is way bigger than that. This is this

29:55

is my kids lives. This is

29:57

my kids kids lives. This is this will

29:59

go one forever if somebody,

30:02

if we don't stand up to it, and

30:05

I can't sit back and

30:07

not say anything about

30:10

inequality anymore, regardless of if

30:12

it's against African Americans, if

30:14

it's against gays, I

30:16

can't not say anything anymore women,

30:19

if it's against whim, I can't not say anything anymore.

30:21

So it's not a it's not a wake up

30:23

call for me. I was. I was woke before

30:25

this, but I'm even more in

30:27

the fight now, you know what I mean. I feel like this was,

30:30

you know, for for all of us. I feel

30:32

like this was a kick in, a

30:34

kick in the in the private parts.

30:36

But this is very necessary kick

30:38

in the private parts. Yeah, but it's a but it's

30:40

it's it's made it so each

30:42

and every one of us will check ourselves

30:46

from here on out, you know what I mean? And that's

30:48

you know, Well, do you

30:50

want to do you want to say anything? Um, You've

30:53

been You've been helpful in getting uh

30:55

us educated in ways that

30:58

I don't think we were, And I just want to know if you want to

31:00

add anything. I guess

31:02

I just have a question at this point. I

31:04

have one belief that when

31:08

you're making an apology, it's a three part process.

31:10

And that process is a knitting

31:13

it, which we've done apologizing

31:15

to the people that were hurt, which you guys have done,

31:18

but then see and Donald did

31:20

it a little bit just now. But it's it's making a

31:22

plan going forward so that not

31:25

only does this not happen again, but that we make it better

31:27

and easier for people coming up.

31:30

And I just I want to ask you guys

31:32

like what you're going to do because we know that their systemic

31:34

racism, and all of you have access

31:37

in power in the industry to make

31:39

active changes. And so when I

31:41

ask you, you know, what do you think you can

31:43

do? Yeah? Going forward, I

31:45

want to continue to learn and to

31:48

read all the books that have been recommended to

31:50

me, and I want to continue talking

31:52

to my kids about race, but

31:55

now it will be more informed and

31:58

um, most importantly

32:00

in terms of projects. Going forward, I

32:03

will use my voice every time something

32:06

is not right. Yeah, I think I agree.

32:08

I I A lot of the stuff I've been reading

32:11

has inspired me to want to be more

32:13

involved. I think I for a while I was just saying,

32:15

well, I'm not I'm not a racist person and my favorite

32:18

human being on earth as a as a black

32:21

man, like you know, I was sort of

32:23

resting on these ridiculous laurels and

32:25

not being proactive and taking action.

32:27

And now I think, with what's going on in the country

32:30

and what's what we're all reading about,

32:32

what we're all learning about watching these documentaries,

32:34

I mean I want to actively

32:37

get involved in making a change. Bill.

32:40

Yeah, it looks um

32:44

to me. It's a bigger question. I'll

32:46

tell you an embarrassing story is Um,

32:49

it's it's involves defining

32:51

what the word enough means to

32:53

you, Like I am I doing enough right,

32:55

and it's gonna be different for every people and you can't define

32:58

it. And I am

33:00

definitely the type of person that for

33:02

a long time, UM,

33:05

felt like I'm doing enough? You

33:07

like Spin City is uh? You

33:09

know, I had a gay black regular that it wasn't the joke,

33:11

you know what I mean, and got all these

33:13

awards for it early on, and so I was always patting

33:16

myself in the back. And then one of

33:18

the and you know, and and most

33:20

of my shows and staffs have been

33:23

diverse in either in front of behind the

33:25

camera both and then uh, I

33:27

was trying to think about it because I thought you might ask something like

33:29

this. And I did a show once

33:31

and I don't want to mention the show because I don't want to mention

33:33

somebody that wasn't his fault in which

33:36

I wasn't going to run the show. So I was going to write

33:38

it with a uh,

33:40

you know, young writer that was on one of my shows, Uh,

33:42

supervise them, and I was really proud

33:44

and exciting. The show got picked up and we went to

33:47

those t C A s um

33:49

the panel was. I was like, this is

33:51

cool because this network hasn't really done this.

33:54

This is an hour long television show that

33:56

the four regulars on the show, the four Pete

33:58

four actors, and these guys all sat up there

34:01

are an Asian guy, two black guys, and

34:03

a Latina woman and you know, and so I'm

34:05

patting myself on the back and raising my arms

34:07

and one of the first questions is why

34:09

are two white guys right in this? And

34:13

uh, the you know, And it was a reporter

34:16

because I've been doing this for a long time that

34:18

it was nice to me and didn't make a huge

34:20

issue out of it. But the real question

34:22

was why did I pick you

34:25

know what I mean, a dude. It's

34:27

not it's not that young guy's fault. Who

34:29

any young guy going I've never created

34:31

the TV show my boss of this many

34:34

years is picking me to do one? You

34:36

know what I mean? Uh, any dude

34:38

would go, fuck yeah, let's do it, you

34:41

know. And that should have been a

34:43

slightly longer search process

34:45

to mock myself, you know. And

34:48

that's the change in thinking of what is

34:50

enough. But I made one of those key mistakes

34:53

that for me makes my

34:55

enough not good enough anymore, you know.

34:58

And uh, it's really I don't

35:00

know who the first person that said it was, but one of these things, it

35:02

was all over the vernacular, was not enough

35:05

to be not a racist, it's enough Biana

35:07

racist. And my son asked

35:10

what that meant, and I told

35:12

him that it meant. What meant for

35:14

me was the countless

35:16

times I've been somewhere

35:19

where ever heard some dude and

35:22

we know, the guy make a blatantly

35:24

racist joke amongst a bunch of people drinking

35:27

beers to test the water. And I was

35:29

fine, going, all right, that guy's a dick.

35:31

I'm never gonna I'm not gonna laugh at all, and

35:34

he's not gonna be in my world. And I just don't

35:36

laugh and move on. Uh. And

35:38

that's as shade different than

35:40

having the courage to go, hey, dude, shut

35:43

the funk up, right.

35:45

And so those those two

35:47

metaphors, that metaphor, to me, those

35:50

two things are very similar. So for

35:52

what you know, for me, what it means going forward

35:55

is adjustin that ship. So

35:58

that's where I'm at, Joe. Oh, you know, I'm gonna

36:00

be honest with you. I'm going to educate

36:02

myself more because so I so I can talk

36:05

about a lot of uh

36:07

the history of of of

36:09

my people and be able

36:12

to speak knowledgeable of

36:14

it and not talk out of my ass, you know what I

36:16

mean. That's one way that I'm going to change

36:20

who I am instead of being just

36:22

okay with all right. I'm an African American

36:25

man in this industry, and I've

36:27

made it this far. I'm a great example, uh

36:30

you know. I'm also I'm I'm

36:32

I'm a firm believer of

36:35

h of of bringing

36:38

the next one up and and

36:40

and helping those behind

36:42

me and who don't

36:45

have the opportunities that I

36:47

have. And so I plan

36:50

on investing in you know, African American

36:52

communities, whether it be my

36:55

time or or

36:58

my knowledge of my experience,

37:01

I plan on doing that. I plan

37:03

on, you know, talking to

37:06

the youth about

37:08

my experience. Uh,

37:10

you know, And because

37:12

at the end of at the at the end of the day, it's

37:15

you know, you can't sit on I can't sit

37:17

on everything that I've learned so far,

37:19

and just I'm not gonna I feel like if

37:21

I just sit on it and keep it for myself.

37:24

I'm a stingy individual and I'm not and

37:26

I'm not pushing forward equality

37:29

and so I you know, all my experiences

37:32

and everything that I've gone through and

37:34

and and educating myself

37:37

are in my uh

37:40

immediate future. I'll

37:42

say that it's it's amazing that all of

37:44

you guys want to educate yourselves and our

37:46

are starting that journey. I

37:48

think that is. I

37:51

think this, especially as the black community said over and over

37:53

and like, that's the least, that's the first

37:55

thing, and I think it's

37:57

it's an important part. But I hope that

38:00

especially as um

38:02

you guys continue on your journeys and

38:04

continue to join shows, that you'll

38:06

look around at your staff and see who's

38:08

missing and call it out when you see it. Because

38:10

to me, especially as a black person who's

38:13

been in Hollywood for six years and

38:15

walking around and seeing who gets to come up and

38:17

seeing you know, the way

38:19

a lot of young black people are treated on

38:21

sets, the way they're sort of frequently run

38:23

out. You know, we've just heard the thing um

38:26

that was happening on Glee, and a lot of these situations

38:28

you know, again not that long ago, five or six

38:30

years ago, and it's still a struggle. And

38:32

so now that you guys have have said all this and

38:34

and and I think done the first

38:36

work of making sure that you know past mistakes

38:38

are called out and and you're being held accountable,

38:40

which is great. There's still so many people

38:43

who are willing to hide and

38:45

just be like, oh that was long ago and I didn't

38:47

know. So I think this is a great first step. Um,

38:50

and I hope to see you guys continue to do more. Is

38:53

it all with Joel? Is it always going to make me feel

38:55

this uncomfortable? Is that part of it? Yeah?

38:58

I think so. I mean I'm black and kin uncomfortable

39:00

my whole life. I think we'll be okay.

39:04

By the way, I'm so glad you said that I was going

39:06

for the setups in case you wanted to be Actually, she

39:10

was like, no, it won't be this uncomfortable. It's

39:13

gonna be it's Is

39:16

there something Joel can do to make me feel

39:18

better about the way this is going? Joel? Can you make

39:20

this easier? I

39:24

think it's good. I think it's good in all aspects

39:27

of our lives to have the uncomfortable conversations.

39:29

Um. There was a thing my father used to say,

39:31

breakdowns lead to breakthroughs.

39:34

And uh, I think that's a

39:36

good to have some breakthroughs in our lives. I

39:38

want to think listening tomorrow, we'll be back

39:40

with the regular podcast. But we just wanted to

39:42

We didn't want to just send out a tweet or put out

39:44

a statement. I think it was something that

39:47

was on all of our minds to just kind of get together

39:49

and talk. So and U Zach

39:52

is uh not speaking for you guys,

39:55

I didn't you know when I did this, I'm

39:57

sorry. I don't affect any of you. I didn't put out any statement

40:00

or anything like that because those always seemed to

40:02

me like, hey, I'm apologizing

40:05

uh now that I think I might be in trouble

40:08

um and uh, you know, you know,

40:10

it's just part of the part of the toxic

40:12

nature of the internet and part of reality that

40:15

but uh, I would say to that,

40:17

I'm sure you guys are cool with it too. I'm willing

40:19

to talk to anybody in anyone

40:22

in a cool, constructive forum

40:24

about any of this stuff, uh, including

40:27

you know, my my own shortcomings with it. And I'm

40:30

still do you want journalists to hit you up? Is that what you're saying.

40:32

I think things like this, you guys have a big audience in

40:34

this podcast, and I think anything where

40:36

you reach people, anything where you

40:38

reach people, I hope you guys will do it with me and

40:40

continue to do that. Um, you can

40:42

shoot the ship and answer questions with no rules

40:45

and all that stuff. I'm I'm always down for it if you

40:47

guys want to Yes. Um,

40:49

thank you guys. Thank you Jowell for

40:52

moderating and sort of really

40:54

helping be a great producer

40:56

of the show. Sarah, our

40:58

favorite Canadian, Thanks for coming, Thanks

41:00

for having me, and uh we love you

41:02

guys. Thank you for listening, and um

41:05

tune in tomorrow for the very

41:07

last episode of season one

41:10

with guest stars Bill Lawrence

41:12

and Chris the Miller. Um,

41:15

I think we should end in song. Donald know, yeah,

41:18

it's the first episode I've ever been on that. I didn't

41:20

say five, six, seven, eight, just did

41:23

it though. No, we're not gonna go one.

41:27

Donald, Let's change the tone and lead us in song.

41:29

Thank you everybody for listening. Sick seven

41:31

eight stories about show

41:34

we made about

41:36

a bunch of doctor nurses and jan

41:40

stories. So

41:45

get around here? Are yet

41:48

around here?

41:49

Are mm

41:54

hmm