0:00

Before AI can help your

0:02

business predict demand, accelerate growth,

0:05

inform decisions, automate tasks, reveal

0:07

insights, generate content, you

0:09

have to trust it. Introducing

0:12

WatsonX Governance. Helping

0:14

you govern any AI as data,

0:16

models, and policies change so

0:19

you can scale it responsibly. Let's

0:21

create AI that begins with trust with

0:23

WatsonX Governance. Learn more

0:26

at ibm.com/governance. IBM. Let's

0:28

create. homes.com knows having

0:31

the right agent can make or break

0:33

your home search. That's why they provide

0:35

home shoppers with an agent directory that

0:37

gives you a detailed look at each

0:39

agent's experience, like the number of closed

0:41

sales in a specific neighborhood, average price

0:43

range and more. It lets you easily

0:45

connect with all the agents in the

0:47

area you're searching so you can find

0:49

the right agent with the right experience

0:52

and ultimately the right home for you.

0:54

homes.com. We've done your homework. During

0:56

the summertime when the weather gets hot, I

0:58

can only imagine how much time you plan

1:00

to spend outside with friends and family or

1:03

on your couch with that AC blasting. AT&T

1:06

5G and home internet keeps you

1:08

connected, whether you're at home or on

1:10

the go, so you can stay connected to

1:12

your loved ones and to your favorite things.

1:14

Whether you're sharing pics from the best rooftops,

1:16

video calling your friends from an outdoor

1:19

concert, or streaming your favorite show,

1:21

episode after episode after episode. So

1:24

connect at home or on the move with AT&T

1:27

5G and home internet and create memories and more

1:29

all summer long. AT&T 5G requires compatible plan and

1:31

device. Covers

1:33

not available everywhere. Learn more

1:36

at att.com/5G4U. Share

1:54

your investment options like share certificates with

1:56

sky high rates. So don't hesitate. Start

1:58

growing your finances today. with your

2:12

diabetes just got easier. The powerful new

2:14

Dexcom G7 lets you see your glucose

2:16

numbers on your compatible watch and phone

2:18

without finger sticks. And because Dexcom G7

2:21

is the most accurate CGM system, you

2:23

can be confident in your food, exercise,

2:25

and medication decisions. And all those decisions

2:27

can lead to big results like more

2:30

time in range and lower A1C. Get

2:32

started at dexcom.com. Dexcom data on file 2023.

2:34

If your glucose alerts and readings from the G7 do

2:36

not match symptoms or expectations, use a blood glucose meter

2:38

to make diabetes treatment decisions. For a list of compatible

2:40

devices, visit dexcom.com. Family

2:43

Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio.

2:46

I'm Dani Shapiro and

2:48

this is Family Secrets.

2:51

The secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we

2:53

keep from others and the secrets we keep from ourselves.

3:02

My guest today is Dina Gashman, journalist and

3:06

author of the recent essay collection, So

3:10

Sorry for Your Loss. Dina's is a story

3:13

of the long reach of our family. She

3:15

is a story of the long reach of our family.

3:19

Dina's is a story of the

3:21

long reach of a buried family

3:23

secret through the generations and

3:25

the desire of one tenacious woman

3:28

to understand what really happened

3:31

and how to make it right, or

3:33

at least as right as

3:35

possible. I

3:39

was born in Fort Worth, Texas. We moved to

3:41

Houston when I was in third grade and

3:45

my parents were high school sweethearts. So

3:47

my family goes back in Texas generations.

3:49

So my childhood was actually

3:52

pretty wonderful. I was

3:55

outside all the time. This was pre-technology

3:57

different. So, you know, my sisters and

3:59

I were all. I was outside making

4:01

mud pies and had very loving parents,

4:03

and I was close with my, those

4:05

sets of grandparents. So we were all pretty physically

4:08

close together. So I was spending the night with them all

4:10

the time, but it was

4:12

actually very happy and wonderful.

4:15

And I don't think there

4:17

was much that I knew about my

4:19

grandparents, except that they were just wonderful

4:21

people. I didn't really, obviously as a

4:23

kid, pay attention to their stories.

4:27

And you were the oldest of four? Yes,

4:29

yeah, oldest of four girls. So

4:32

growing up in the first the

4:34

Fort Worth area and then the

4:36

Houston area, what were

4:39

the expectations of the kind

4:41

of person you were supposed to grow up to be?

4:44

I think the expectations were, I'd

4:46

be a cheerleader, be on the drill team,

4:48

very kind of Texas view of the world.

4:50

And I was not going in

4:52

that direction at all. I was very

4:54

creative, wanted to be a writer. I always loved

4:57

school, but I just rebelled by wearing combat boots

4:59

and all that kind of stuff. But I

5:01

think the expectations were, you get married, you have

5:04

a family. And my parents knew pretty

5:06

quickly that I was probably going to go in

5:08

a different direction or maybe even leave Texas. And

5:10

they didn't discourage me from

5:12

that. But I think in general, it was more

5:15

just like, you get married, you have children. Women

5:17

didn't necessarily work that much, honestly. My

5:20

mom was a stay at home mom.

5:22

So that was kind

5:24

of the world that I was brought up in. And I

5:26

think I rebelled against it probably around junior high. And

5:29

even though you adored your mom,

5:32

you also had that adolescent rebellion feeling was, I

5:34

don't want to grow up and have your life.

5:37

At the time, yes, I very much

5:40

saw my mom as this woman who

5:42

had never really left Texas. And who

5:44

had kind of, I viewed, I guess

5:47

her life is small and I feel terrible saying that,

5:49

but as a teenager, I did. I just thought, I

5:52

want to go to Paris, I want to go to New

5:54

York, I want to have this big life. And I

5:57

remember getting in a fight with her when

5:59

I was in high school. I said, you know,

6:01

you're just a housewife. And I

6:03

apologize for that, probably literally until

6:05

our dying day. And she would always

6:08

laugh it off. But I felt horrible. But at

6:10

the time, I meant I was very much steering

6:13

myself away from being like,

6:15

quote unquote, just a housewife and living

6:17

in the suburbs like that seems horrible to

6:19

me. So I definitely repel against it. Hovering

6:24

over Dina's childhood was a story.

6:27

Well, not exactly a story,

6:29

more like family lore or a

6:32

legend, something about a

6:34

fire. Though the

6:36

details were super hazy, it was

6:38

always there in the background, part of

6:40

the music of her life. As

6:42

a teenager, some of the details began to

6:45

emerge. At

6:47

some point, I think in high school, I heard the

6:49

story of a fire. And

6:52

it just took shape in

6:54

my imagination. And I never asked

6:56

about it. But I

6:58

had heard the story of a fire

7:00

that happened on my mom's side. And

7:02

I knew a woman had committed arson,

7:04

but I didn't inquire any further. And

7:07

also at that time, when I was in

7:09

high school, I remember my mom telling me

7:11

that my great aunts on her side traced

7:14

our lineage. And this is before 23andMe. So

7:16

it was literally typewritten pages that she handed

7:18

me. And I was so excited

7:20

because I was sure in the pages, I was like,

7:22

you know, there's going to be some woman that like

7:25

fought in the front lines of a battle dressed as a man

7:27

or like marched for women's rights in the

7:30

20s. I just was so sure that as

7:32

opposed to the housewife that I didn't want to

7:34

become that there'd be some woman that I could

7:36

maybe like hinge my identity on. And so I

7:38

got the papers and there wasn't anything. There

7:41

wasn't anything. It was very basic stuff. And this

7:43

would have been in the

7:46

90s? Yeah, early 90s. So

7:49

those pages just sort of sat

7:51

around for a long time. It was a dead end. Yes.

7:54

And I actually still have them. I somehow held

7:56

on to them through those all over

7:59

the country. And But it was it

8:01

was it that in it and at that time I don't I

8:03

think I was just looking for some kind of heroin And it

8:05

just was you know your family goes back to the Mayflower and

8:07

you know that kind of stuff and so but I held On

8:09

to them for whatever reason What do

8:11

you think that was about the feeling

8:13

of you know wanting hoping you know

8:15

needing for there to be a Role

8:19

model in a way is sort

8:21

of within your family tree someone

8:23

that would maybe help

8:25

make sense to you of you Yeah,

8:28

I think a lot of it Maybe was just that

8:30

I did feel very different where I grew up because

8:32

when we moved to Houston It was

8:34

all about the status quo Very

8:37

homogenous like everyone has the same person

8:39

everyone You know it just felt like

8:41

everyone had to follow in a certain

8:43

line and that just felt so wrong

8:45

to me I couldn't even imagine

8:47

doing that and I and I wanted to push

8:49

against it because I could very

8:51

easily fall into that right and I

8:54

think it may have been about something bigger and

8:56

something wilder and maybe it would have made me

8:58

understand myself in that way It's

9:03

so interesting the way that I think so

9:05

often we feel the need to Place

9:08

ourselves within a narrative You

9:11

know as opposed to just doing

9:13

sometimes what you know we

9:15

have to do which is just make the narrative

9:17

Forge the narrative start the narrative But

9:19

just that feeling of sort of already

9:21

being part of a story that has

9:24

begun before yeah I

9:26

wanted out of Texas the South so I left for

9:28

UCLA and I loved it And I thought I would

9:30

never leave and I certainly thought

9:32

I'd never come back to Texas that was

9:34

not even a faint

9:37

idea So I went

9:39

to school. I studied English stayed in California

9:41

for many years I had you know all

9:43

kinds of jobs that would hopefully get me

9:45

to that writing life that I always wanted

9:47

and so Waited tables had

9:49

temp jobs, but always wrote it was always kind

9:52

of part of what I was doing and Then

9:55

I lived in New York for a little bit back

9:57

to LA and all of those

10:00

years when you moved around, you moved cross-country, you

10:03

kept with you those

10:05

pages. The, you know,

10:07

typewritten pages of family

10:09

history, genealogy, they never got

10:11

lost. They were important enough to

10:13

hold on to. Did

10:16

that story also sort of

10:18

reside in you somewhere, just as like this

10:21

sense of this mystery that you hadn't been

10:23

able to solve? It did. I

10:25

mean, that story of the fire, I

10:27

loved how it was in my imagination, honestly, and I've

10:29

asked myself all the time, like, why did I not

10:32

ask my mom? You know, I had plenty of time,

10:34

or my grandmother, why did I

10:36

not sit them down and say, okay, what happened? Right, because

10:38

I knew that there was this story of a fire, but

10:41

my only answer, I guess, is that I just, I liked the

10:43

way it was in my mind, but I

10:46

did, I carried that with me for years. And

10:48

every once in a while, I would kind of

10:51

think about it and imagine it. I think

10:53

when I was in college, actually, I saw

10:55

Terrence Malick's film, Badlands, which in

10:57

that film, there's

11:00

this very cinematic, operatic

11:02

fire scene, and

11:04

it's, you know, the main character's father

11:06

is horrible, so she burns

11:08

down the house, and somehow that scene

11:10

and that movie, which I loved, became

11:13

part of this family lore

11:15

in my imagination. So I

11:17

told myself that it was my grandmother that did

11:20

it, and she burned her childhood house down to

11:22

save her and her sisters and her mother, because

11:24

my great-grandfather was an alcoholic, which

11:26

he was, but I don't know if he was

11:28

a bad guy, I just know he was an alcoholic. So I

11:30

just created this thing of, it's kind of

11:33

like Badlands, and it's this big,

11:35

operatic fire, and my grandmother did it, and

11:37

no one was hurt, but she was the

11:39

rebel. And so I just kind of

11:42

let it sit there in my mind for

11:44

years, but I thought about it often, and I thought

11:46

about writing about it often, but I never did. When

11:49

you saw Badlands, did it

11:51

fit together with the vision

11:54

of the fire that you had already been

11:56

carrying around with you? Was it already sort

11:58

of this in your imagination? in your inner

12:00

life, was it this big operatic

12:03

thing, or did it sort of supplant

12:05

that in some way? I

12:08

think when I saw the film, that's what it became.

12:11

It just gave me a visual that

12:13

I could cling onto, and Terrence

12:15

Malick is from Texas. Like there were, you know, sort

12:17

of things that overlapped that felt

12:19

like I could kind of hold onto it, and

12:22

they just blended together in my mind. But I do

12:24

think the film probably influenced what was going on in

12:26

my head. Eventually,

12:31

Dina does find herself back in Texas.

12:34

Her grandmother passes away, followed by

12:36

her great-aunt's and then her mother.

12:40

It's during this period of grief and

12:42

loss that Dina feels a pull to

12:44

return to Texas. The

12:47

irony is not lost on her. She

12:49

has become the very thing she had judged

12:51

and run away from, a suburban

12:54

Texas mom. In

12:56

taking on this role, Dina rethinks

12:58

her own mother's life. Also,

13:01

she misses her terribly. You

13:05

know, my mom died in 2018, and

13:07

that really was, you know, the pull for me

13:09

to come back, and I really needed my roots.

13:11

But I think losing my mom, and I think

13:14

most people that have lost someone they deeply love,

13:16

one of the things that's really hard for me

13:18

is realizing that when you lose someone, then you

13:20

lose their stories, right? You can't ask them ever

13:22

again, and that's just hard

13:24

to live with. And I, you know, I

13:27

never asked my mom, I never asked my

13:29

grandmother about this story, and I

13:31

just think to myself, like, why didn't I?

13:33

Like, now if they were here, I would sit

13:35

them down and just say, tell me everything.

13:37

So I think losing my mom really pushed

13:39

me to look at this story closer and say,

13:42

like, let me just figure this out, because

13:44

I can't ask her anymore that the stories

13:46

are gone. Like, basically, I'm the

13:48

oldest female on that side now, I think,

13:50

which is a strange thing

13:52

to realize, but they're all gone, that whole

13:54

line of women. So I think that really

13:57

kind of kicked me into gear to say, like, okay, maybe I

13:59

need to... asked the question finally.

14:02

You know, I asked my dad first because he was

14:05

new my mom and her family since he was a

14:07

teenager so I figured he'd be reliable, but his you

14:09

know, his response was I'm pretty sure it happened. And

14:12

he was like, I think it was your great aunt Inez, but

14:14

that's kind of all I got from him. We'll

14:24

be right back. Did

14:30

somebody say free diamond bracelet? That's

14:32

right, Diamond's Direct is expanding about

14:35

their best offer yet. Make any

14:37

purchase this month and receive a

14:39

free diamond tennis bracelet valued at

14:41

$2,000. That's right, any engagement ring,

14:43

any diamond necklace, any timepiece. Or

14:45

you get your money back. So next

14:47

time you're shopping for the family,

14:49

look for delicious Kroger brand products.

14:52

Because they'll make you all feel like you're winning. Shop

14:55

now, in store or online.

14:58

Kroger, fresh for everyone. Hey,

15:01

it's Paris Hilton. Check out my new

15:03

single, I'm Free, featuring Rina Sawayama. The

15:11

song can change your life and that's what

15:13

Free by Ultra Nete did for me. My

15:15

first single from my new album, Infinite Icon,

15:17

is a reimagined version of the iconic song.

15:20

Listen to I'm Free on iHeartRadio

15:22

or wherever you stream music and

15:25

visit infiniteicon.com to pre-save my album.

15:28

Sponsored by 11-11 Media. If

15:31

your business needs a new application, then

15:33

developers will have to write code. lot of

15:35

code. A lot of code. If an

15:38

application needs to be modernized, then

15:40

you'll need time, resources, and caffeine.

15:43

If that sounds daunting, then

15:45

you need WatsonX Code Assistant.

15:47

AI designed to multiply developer

15:49

productivity so you can generate

15:51

code quickly. Let's create a

15:53

more modern foundation for business

15:55

with WatsonX Code Assistant. Learn

15:57

more at ibm.com/code assistant. IBM.

16:00

Let's create. Your new home journey starts at

16:02

Fisher Homes where everything is red white

16:04

and new. Explore exclusive summer savings and

16:06

start your journey by selecting your ideal

16:08

home site and your dream community. Choose

16:10

from a variety of expertly designed floor

16:13

plans and bring your style to life

16:15

at the Lifestyle Design Center. Are you

16:17

looking for a quick move-in ready home

16:19

instead? Fisher Homes has options for those

16:21

too. Fill out a form

16:23

to connect with a new home advisor

16:26

at fisherhomes.com to get started today before

16:28

the sun sets on summer savings. Tired

16:30

of restless nights? Meet Lisa,

16:33

the sleep expert. Here

16:36

at Lisa, we know that good sleep

16:38

is essential for mental, physical and emotional

16:40

health. That's why their mattresses are made

16:42

for exceptional comfort and support, catering to

16:45

every sleep need. Check

16:47

out Lisa's Sapira Hybrid Mattress, named

16:49

Best Hybrid Mattress 5 years running.

16:51

Sleep hot? The chill collection is

16:53

built with cool to the touch

16:55

top fabric and layers of high

16:57

density comfort foams, all intended to

16:59

remove excess body heat while maximizing

17:01

comfort. Getting

17:03

a new match with has never been

17:06

easier. Delivery it's free and you have

17:08

one hundred knights to try out your

17:10

mattress in the comfort of your home.

17:13

Don't spend another night dreaming of better

17:15

sleep for a limited time. save up

17:17

to seven hundred dollars off select mattresses.

17:20

Plus to prepare go to lisa.com Forward/i

17:22

heart for an additional thirty dollars on

17:24

mattresses and select goods that L E

17:27

as a.com Forward/i heart exclusions apply see.com

17:29

for more details. Hi.

17:32

I'm Sarah, Jake Roberts. With

17:38

few details from her father, Dina starts

17:40

to dig. She gets

17:42

in touch with all sorts of

17:45

family members, determined to get information

17:47

about her great Aunt Inez. In

17:49

her excavation, she finds out about

17:51

something, or rather, someone

17:54

she hadn't known existed. Aunt

17:57

Inez had a son, Steve. Oh

18:01

man, well, you know, first I'd asked

18:03

my cousin and, you know, nobody knew anything. My cousin

18:05

didn't know anything. My uncle didn't know anything. Some

18:08

distant relative in Arkansas that I called

18:10

didn't know anything. And

18:13

then when I found out about Inez's son

18:15

and I thought after all of these years

18:17

and then all of this time digging, I

18:20

thought, oh my gosh, I'm going to get his number. And wouldn't it

18:22

make sense to just call him immediately? But I got the number and

18:24

I just kind of froze and I

18:26

put it in my desk and it took me about

18:28

two weeks to make the call. I was very nervous

18:32

because I didn't know the guy. And

18:34

to call somebody up and say, hey, you know,

18:36

did your mom commit arson? It's

18:38

extremely awkward. And as

18:40

a journalist, I ask questions all the time. With

18:42

the hard questions, I have to really get myself

18:45

into that zone. So I sat on it for

18:47

about two weeks and it was scary.

18:49

I mean, my heart was racing, but

18:51

he was so sweet and so gracious. But

18:53

you know, I said, I heard

18:55

this story that your mom maybe committed arson.

18:57

Did you know anything about that? He had

19:00

no clue. And he he told

19:02

me that he didn't even know that his

19:04

mom had been married before his father until

19:06

he was 18 and they told him. So that just shows

19:08

you that even her being married

19:10

before was a secret. Yeah, a secret.

19:13

And so, you know, I asked his permission. I

19:15

said, are you OK if I kind of dig

19:17

further into this? It was a

19:20

scary thing to ask and kind of surprising

19:22

that he wouldn't know about this huge

19:24

thing in his mom's past. He did give me permission to

19:26

kind of dig deeper,

19:28

which I appreciated. You

19:30

know, I'm interested too in making the

19:32

distinction between like, yes, you're a journalist

19:34

and you're used to asking

19:36

hard questions and you have to kind of gear yourself

19:39

up to ask them in the line of work.

19:43

But I would imagine that it would have felt different

19:46

to be asking these questions

19:48

when you're dealing with something that

19:51

is as personal as a

19:53

family story. Yes,

19:55

it adds a whole other layer of for

19:58

one thing, I don't want to bring something. up with this

20:00

guy that I don't even know. This

20:03

guy in North Texas who, yes, he's related to me,

20:05

but I don't want to

20:07

call him and then just dig

20:09

up things that maybe he doesn't want to think about

20:11

or doesn't want to have

20:14

in his life. I guess I had to feel like

20:16

it was worth it to even go there. And I

20:18

think that's when my dad, who had told me, he

20:20

thought it was my nose. When I told my dad this, he

20:23

said, maybe you should just kind of leave this alone. But

20:25

I just couldn't. I had

20:28

his permission. And was your dad's

20:30

feeling, let sleeping dogs lie,

20:32

kind of why stir up something

20:34

that is ancient history kind of

20:36

feeling? I think it's

20:38

that. And then just my dad's a pretty

20:40

sensitive person. So I think he was probably

20:42

thinking of Inez's son. And just

20:44

maybe you don't want to do this to somebody that

20:47

is not asking these questions. And that is

20:49

the hard thing about finding out

20:51

a secret or being a journalist or

20:53

trying to look into these stories is

20:56

you almost have to think, OK, well,

20:58

is this my story to tell? And I did grapple

21:00

with that when my dad said, you know, maybe you

21:03

should leave it alone. I thought, OK, is

21:06

this my story to tell? This is this other guy's

21:08

mother. It's not my mom. But I just felt like,

21:10

you know, these are the one in my family that

21:12

I eventually came to the conclusion that it is. It

21:14

is my story to tell. Yeah, that

21:16

makes a lot of sense to me. I

21:19

mean, both the grappling with it and the questions.

21:21

And it sort of fell on you. He

21:23

just simply didn't know. But that

21:25

didn't make the story not a

21:28

true story. It didn't erase the story.

21:31

Right. Dina

21:35

is, at this point, a working mom with

21:37

a young kid. She's living a

21:39

rich and busy life in Austin. Still,

21:43

she doesn't lose her drive to solve

21:45

the mystery, to close the chapter, to

21:47

understand what happened the night of the

21:49

fire and in its aftermath. The

21:53

other thing that really pushed me is

21:55

I pitched this to some editors at

21:57

Mother Tongue magazine. I had never met them. one

22:00

of those meet and greet kind of

22:02

zooms and they asked, you know, the question, is there

22:04

anything you've been burning to write? So it

22:06

was just the perfect timing. Interesting choice

22:09

of words too. Right. Exactly.

22:11

And, you know, editors don't often ask that. So

22:13

it's a magical question to get as a writer.

22:15

And I, and I hadn't prepared a pitch. I

22:17

just started going off about my great aunt and

22:20

saying like, this is what's going on. And I

22:22

always thought about it. And I

22:24

don't know what the outcome's going to be. I don't know if

22:26

I'm going to really find any true evidence, but I need to

22:28

go on a road trip and they were like, go for it.

22:30

And so then I sort of had, then

22:33

I had to do it. And, you

22:35

know, from that on, it became extremely important

22:38

and I, you know, I've never really

22:40

done investigative work before. So, I mean,

22:42

I had like a little board with

22:44

pictures up and things like that. So

22:46

it became a huge part of my

22:48

days for sure. And you

22:50

brought in a genealogist

22:54

slash genealogical detective in a

22:56

way, right? I

22:58

had, yeah. So I had looked

23:00

on, you know, ancestry.com, which you don't really find

23:03

that much there. And I talked to a lot

23:05

of small town historians because I knew that I

23:08

ness had lived in Fort Worth and then

23:10

also in Wichita falls, which is North Texas.

23:12

And so I, I talked to small town

23:14

historians up there who were very helpful as

23:16

far as census records and marriage

23:18

records and things like that. So they were sending

23:21

me those kinds of things, but I just, we

23:23

weren't finding any, a news story or anything about

23:25

a fire. And so I was

23:27

about to give up and I remembered

23:30

there's this group called the Texas

23:32

Genealogical Society. They do a conference

23:34

every year. And so I just thought, okay, let me

23:37

find somebody on their board who's in North Texas. And

23:39

let me just give it one last shot. I mean,

23:41

I was about to be write the article and say,

23:43

I didn't find out anything, but

23:45

it was a great try, you know, and that was going to

23:47

be a great article. So I emailed

23:49

this woman in North Texas and I just sent

23:51

her everything I had. I said, here's marriage records,

23:53

here's social security. Here's an address that

23:55

she lived in. And I sent it off one night, just

23:57

thinking, okay, this is, this is kind of my. last

24:00

shot, right? This is kind of my Hail Mary. I don't know what

24:02

else to do. And then

24:04

I woke up in the morning to like six

24:06

emails from this woman. The subject lines were like,

24:08

found it, she's guilty, she did it. I mean,

24:11

it was crazy. And

24:13

so I opened these emails and it

24:15

was news clippings that she had found

24:17

from 1946 with

24:20

the most film noir kind of

24:22

headlines like, brunette, burns out, blonde

24:25

at rival, bible's house.

24:27

So they were basically framing my great Anna's this

24:29

like brunette femme fatale. And there

24:31

it was, it was crazy. It was right in front of my family.

24:34

I mean, I still get chills thinking about it,

24:36

that this thing that had lived in my

24:39

mind for decades, it was right

24:41

in front of my face in the

24:43

newspaper that she had burned down a house.

24:47

And until that moment, were you sure that

24:49

it was true? And were you sure

24:52

that it was her? Because my

24:54

sense is that there was some question

24:56

in your mind from early on when you first

24:58

heard word of the lore

25:00

of this fire of really just

25:03

not even being sure A, that it happened

25:05

and B, who said it if it did.

25:07

So that moment, what was that like? I

25:11

was not sure at all until that moment. I thought

25:13

it was one of those things, you know, because sometimes

25:16

we just create stories in our minds. You know, I

25:18

think most people do this where you have like a

25:20

memory and you're like, did that actually happen? Or did

25:22

I make that up? And so I

25:25

really didn't know. I didn't know if it was her. I

25:27

didn't know if a fire happened or if this was just

25:29

some family legend that somehow,

25:32

you know, just endured over these years. So

25:34

it really wasn't until that moment that I

25:36

thought, wow, this actually is part of my

25:39

family story and part of my story.

25:41

And, you know, it was several clippings.

25:43

And, you know, the more

25:45

I dug in, it was that there

25:48

was so much more to it. I mean, that she

25:50

had been married to this guy. They divorced. He was

25:52

abusive. That she didn't just try

25:54

to burn the house down once. She went back three

25:56

times. That she was sent to

25:58

the North Texas state house. hospital. When

26:01

is the first time that you actually saw

26:03

her, like saw an image

26:05

of her as part of the

26:07

clippings and the lurid headlines? Well

26:10

that was interesting because the clippings that the

26:12

genealogists sent me were just, you know, headlines.

26:16

And I didn't see a picture until one of

26:18

the historians, like that same week,

26:20

because we were all kind of emailing a lot during

26:22

that week, and one of the historians

26:24

emailed me and she's like, I'm sure you've seen this, but

26:26

I found this on eBay, and it

26:28

was the actual crime photo. I think that,

26:31

you know, on eBay it was for sale,

26:33

like true crime photo. It

26:35

was a black and white photo of Inez in

26:38

what looks like prison clothes, and she's sitting

26:40

there and she has a black eye, and

26:43

she's kind of smiling. And

26:45

it said, you know, Inez Berger, which was her

26:48

married name at that time, arrested for arson. I

26:50

mean, that was the first time I saw her

26:52

face, and she looked like my grandmother. Crazy,

26:54

and my mother. Seeing her there,

26:57

but then with a black eye, and with this, almost

26:59

like a little bit of a

27:01

triumphant smile, it was just, it was unbelievable to see

27:03

that. So I bought it for like $19 on the

27:05

spot. But

27:08

that was the first time I saw an image of her

27:10

at that time. We'll

27:20

be back in a moment with more family secrets.

27:24

We'll be right back. $10,000

27:54

or more qualifies. So

27:56

hurry into Diamonds Direct. Your chance to

27:58

get a free tennis bracelet ends June.

28:00

Start it. Details at diamondsdirect.com. Sponsored

28:30

by 1111 Media. IBM.

29:01

Let's create. Before

29:30

the sun sets on summer savings.

30:05

Getting a new match with has never

30:08

been easier. Delivery it's free and you

30:10

have one hundred knights to try out

30:12

your mattress in the comfort of your

30:15

home. Don't spend another night dreaming of

30:17

better sleep for a limited time. save

30:19

up to seven hundred dollars off select

30:21

mattresses. Plus to prepare go to lisa.com

30:24

Forward/i heart for an additional thirty dollars

30:26

on mattresses and select goods that L

30:28

E as a.com Forward/i heart exclusions apply

30:31

see.com for more details. Hi.

30:34

I'm Sarah, Jake Roberts. Dina

30:38

does what so many of us do when

30:40

we're trying to figure something out. She

30:43

gets into her car and drives. She

30:47

heads out on a road trip to

30:49

Wichita Falls and Fort Worth to visit

30:51

the North Texas State Hospital where Inez

30:53

had been sent. The

30:55

visit is powerful and illuminating. It's

30:58

a very different place today than it

31:01

was back then. So

31:04

when she was there, I think it opened in the 20s or 30s and

31:07

yes it was created to be one of these

31:09

places where they're like milking cows and picking carrots

31:11

and that's not to say that it was a you

31:14

know idyllic place because when I went there in

31:16

the lobby they have the electroshock

31:18

machines they used in that era. They had you

31:20

know all this I mean they're showing

31:22

the history of the place. So it

31:25

was meant to be you know let's rehabilitate

31:27

these people and I can

31:29

only imagine what it was like for her there

31:31

and I know that she was sent there because

31:33

well I don't know for sure but in the

31:36

news paper articles or the news articles it

31:38

would say that nine people

31:41

testified that she was not of sound mind

31:44

and one of them was of my great-grandmother that said that and

31:46

I imagine and this is one of those things I'll just have

31:48

to you know keep in my imagination but

31:51

I would think that they said that so that

31:53

she would go to a state hospital instead of

31:55

to jail. That's just my thinking

31:57

of why they would do that but So

32:00

yeah, she was sent there and I don't know for how long

32:02

as I can get the records. But going up

32:04

to this place, I mean, it's these old brick

32:06

buildings. I mean, half of them

32:09

are condemned. It's a pretty sad place. Well,

32:12

and she was released on bail the first

32:14

time that she was sent there, right? So

32:16

this is where the story, it's almost becomes

32:18

like a dark comedy in a way. Because

32:21

I mean, no one bad sides. But

32:24

so she went to his house and I did

32:26

go visit the house, or

32:28

the house that's on that site now. So

32:30

she went to the house and tried to burn it down a first

32:32

time and it didn't work. She went a

32:34

second time and it didn't work, but she and she got arrested.

32:37

And she was released on bail after

32:39

that second attempt. And

32:42

supposedly from what the newspaper said, after the second attempt, she

32:44

got in a cab, went straight back and burned it down.

32:48

But she was determined, she was not happy.

32:50

And so after that third attempt is when

32:52

she was arrested and then sent us to

32:54

the state hospital. And

32:56

so would it have been after

32:58

the third attempt that she, that photograph was taken of

33:00

her with the black eye and the kind

33:03

of small triumphant smile, or there's no way

33:05

to really know that? Yeah. So it was

33:07

after that third attempt when she was officially

33:09

arrested and then put on trial. And the

33:11

smile was she had done it. Yeah.

33:13

I mean, that's the crazy thing. I mean, I still have

33:16

that picture in my office. You know, I've stared at

33:18

that picture a lot because it's

33:20

such a mysterious thing.

33:22

But yes, I think, you know, her quotes,

33:25

I mean, if you've ever looked at 1940s newspapers, they're

33:28

horrifying and hilarious. That's just the

33:30

way that they phrase things. Unbelievable.

33:32

But some of her quotes were

33:34

that, you know, I don't regret

33:36

it at all. My ex-husband beat me. And when you

33:38

do the same thing and, and

33:41

I could only imagine that, yes, she, she

33:43

didn't want to kill him. I actually, I'd actually

33:45

also talked to some forensic psychologists and

33:48

they say it's significant that

33:50

every time she went, nobody was there. Like,

33:52

I don't think she was trying to kill him. I

33:55

think she just, especially being a woman at that

33:57

time, that was kind of all

33:59

she had. I mean, they didn't have a lot

34:01

of money. She's not like she knew powerful people. Her

34:04

only way to say

34:06

this guy is abusing me and I'm

34:08

pissed is to burn his house down.

34:11

And it's pretty sad when you read

34:13

the papers. The guy wasn't really

34:16

made out to be a bad guy at all, which it's

34:19

not perfect now, but it's so different now that I

34:21

don't think he would just be painted as some husband.

34:24

Poor guy got his house burned down, but at

34:26

the time, she was the bad person, which is

34:28

crazy. And

34:30

nothing is made of the fact that she has

34:33

evidence of being hurt. No,

34:36

I mean, I think one article mentioned

34:38

it, but not even in a, you know, it was just

34:40

kind of like, I know, it's with a black eye, said

34:42

this. So

34:45

that was another thing that really struck me,

34:47

especially seeing the photos and reading those quotes

34:49

is just women at that time.

34:51

I mean, had very

34:54

little recourse when it came to that kind

34:56

of abuse. And you know, the other mystery

34:58

that I'll just say that I may never

35:00

find out is they had

35:02

been divorced and he had been remarried, yet he

35:04

was still abusing her. So like, were they having

35:06

an affair? You know, that's something that I, I

35:09

don't know how I would ever find that answer,

35:11

but that's another sort of part of the mystery

35:13

is, well, why were they still, well,

35:16

what was going on with those two? And then

35:18

the state hospital was, I, you know, got

35:20

a tour and I talked to the president

35:23

at the time. And he told me that

35:25

women in that era would be dropped off for

35:28

much less than arson. And one of these, one

35:31

of the things he said to me was, you

35:33

know, things like menopause, which is just, you know,

35:35

husbands would just literally drop women off at the

35:37

gates of this place. Well, like, okay, dear, you

35:39

know, spend the next 18 months

35:42

here and I'll pick you up. Yeah, can't take

35:44

your mood. So, you know, just go into this

35:46

mental hospital place. There's no way

35:48

of knowing how long she

35:50

was there. And I mean,

35:52

you do know that when

35:54

she, at some point after she

35:57

got out, she remarried and she.

36:00

married Steve's father and they had a long

36:02

happy marriage and they had this

36:04

son. There's so much that is

36:06

available to us now in terms of being

36:09

able to ask institutions for

36:11

records, to understand what happened.

36:15

Do the records exist or are they lost

36:17

to history? Well, if they

36:19

do exist, I mean that's the part where I

36:21

did hit a dead end is the story still

36:23

stays. I mean, I feel like there's more to

36:25

tell, there's more to find out. Like

36:28

how long was she there or what the records would

36:30

say and I reached back out

36:32

to her son. Well the first

36:35

time I reached back out is when the articles came

36:37

out and I just said, I said, you know, I

36:39

did find some things out. Do

36:41

you want to read this? And I sent

36:43

it to him before publication and he said, no, not

36:45

right now. He said, when it comes out, maybe

36:47

you could send it to me on the side. It's like he just

36:49

didn't want to know. And then when

36:52

I did send it to him, he did read it and he

36:54

just said something like, you know, this is a different

36:56

kind of read for me. He said

36:58

he has very mixed emotions and I'm pulling

37:00

up the email. He said, I will consider

37:03

her a person of courage. And

37:06

he said, I appreciate your writing and research. And

37:08

then I reached out to him pretty recently because

37:10

I wanted to see if I could talk to

37:12

him further and maybe because he's the only person

37:14

that could get the records released. And

37:17

he just said no. He was very

37:19

sweet, but he just said no. And from

37:21

there, I can't really do much because he's

37:23

the only person that could unlock that. There

37:27

can really be a point in life where

37:29

it's too much, where

37:32

the idea of re-understanding

37:35

or re-ordering or rethinking

37:37

your history, when

37:39

there is nothing to be done about

37:41

it, there's

37:44

no conversation to be had, that

37:46

kind of reckoning is just more than somebody

37:49

feels that

37:51

they can bear. If we

37:53

go back to the idea of narrative, it does not

37:55

fit into the narrative of, you know,

37:57

this was my life, this was my mother, this was

37:59

my father. this was our history. Yeah,

38:02

and I think he's probably in his 70s now, and he

38:04

probably just is like, you know what, I don't need to

38:06

go there. I don't need to unearth

38:10

things. And, you know, my motivations are very different.

38:12

I mean, I'm thinking about, you know, a

38:15

lot of it is about women and

38:18

what women have endured. And, you know, going back

38:20

to even when I was in high school and

38:22

searching for that kind of specifically female heroine, I

38:24

mean, I didn't get those pages in high school

38:26

and think, like, where's the guy? Like,

38:28

where's the guy that did something great? Like,

38:30

it had to be a woman. And so

38:33

I think that, yeah, for him, he's living

38:35

his life, he's working, he doesn't need to

38:37

know more. Whereas I'm

38:39

sitting here going, I want to know everything. Where

38:42

does it end up sitting with

38:45

you? And, you know, how does it

38:47

end up feeling to you? I mean, you

38:49

made a piece of work out of it, you know, that exists

38:51

in the world, but perhaps more

38:53

important, you were

38:56

able to find that

38:58

person, someone who

39:01

didn't sit back and

39:03

just contend with her a lot

39:05

in life. And I mean,

39:08

even divorce was pretty unusual in those

39:10

days. Whatever the circumstances of

39:12

their divorce was, she

39:14

was definitely trying to get out of there. Yes. So

39:17

what has that done for you in terms

39:20

of just a feeling that you were right

39:22

all along, there was somebody

39:24

in that family tree of

39:26

yours, there was a woman who

39:29

walked a different path than the

39:31

path of all of the

39:33

other women around her. I think

39:35

it's two things. It's the

39:38

fact that, yes, I am related to somebody, and

39:40

I'm sure there's people on that

39:42

I don't even know about that I'm related to that did

39:44

things like this, but a woman

39:46

that, you know, she didn't necessarily do the

39:48

thing that I was thinking about back in

39:50

high school, right? She didn't challenge government over,

39:53

right in the war. She

39:56

did something very different than that,

39:58

but extremely brave. And when I went to

40:00

the house and, you know, we were just

40:02

outside looking at it, I just thought, that's

40:04

terrifying, actually. Walking into someone's house three times

40:07

with a match, it's

40:09

not a small thing to do. I mean, that's, it's

40:11

a huge thing to do. So

40:14

it's made me look at all the women in my

40:16

family, I think, in a different light. And, you know,

40:18

it kind of colors everything. My mom,

40:21

my grandmother, and just realizing

40:23

that it doesn't have to be

40:25

some big thing that a person does to

40:28

make them credible or

40:30

someone that can inspire you. You

40:32

know, even my mom, the way she lived her

40:34

life, every human has hard

40:36

things to deal with. And, you know, my

40:38

mom certainly did, my grandmother certainly did. And

40:41

seeing those things is heroic. I think my

40:44

great aunt has helped me understand that a

40:47

little bit better and just, I guess, elevating

40:49

all the women in my family in a way

40:51

of, you know, just understanding that any moment in

40:54

life can be hard. It

40:56

doesn't have to be grand, if that makes sense. Yeah,

40:59

that's beautiful. It totally makes sense. And you're

41:01

the mother of a son, but you also have nieces. This

41:04

is something that you feel

41:06

is part of the legacy that

41:09

you are able to pass on

41:11

to that generation. Yes, definitely

41:14

my nieces and my son, too. Like, I mean, I'm

41:16

going to be six now. I'm

41:18

not going to tell them yet. But eventually, yes,

41:20

to tell them that, like, you had this person

41:22

in your family who really stood up for herself

41:25

in an extremely brave and bold way,

41:27

not that I'm condoning arson, but for

41:30

her to do that in the 40s and

41:32

say, I don't regret it, is a very powerful thing. And

41:35

one of the things that I keep thinking since writing

41:37

the piece and finding all this out is just, I

41:39

wish I could just sit her down and say, you're

41:41

amazing. Like, this didn't have to be a secret. This shouldn't have been something that

41:43

was shameful. This shouldn't have been

41:46

something that, you know, my grandmother and her sisters

41:49

and my great grandmother felt like

41:51

they couldn't share, that

41:53

it's really that I admire her.

41:55

And I still have, you know, I still have her

41:57

photo in my office, and I sometimes don't. look at

41:59

it and just out loud or like, you're a badass.

42:02

Like, I just wish she could have known that

42:04

or felt that instead of feeling ashamed of it,

42:06

which she obviously did because she didn't tell anybody.

42:09

You know, I always do remember my mom saying that

42:11

my grandmother, we called her Mamaw, she would say, you

42:13

know, Mamaw and her sisters, they had it hard. And

42:16

you know, it wasn't easy for them growing up and

42:18

she would say like they had to be pretty tough. So

42:21

I think maybe that has something to

42:23

do with how this all turned out. Yeah.

42:47

Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly

42:50

Zakur is the story editor and

42:53

Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. If

42:56

you have a family secret you'd like to share, just

42:58

leave us a voicemail and your story could appear

43:00

on an upcoming episode. Our number

43:02

is 1-888-SECRET-0. That's

43:06

the number zero. You can

43:08

also find me on Instagram at

43:11

dannywriter. And if you'd

43:13

like to know more about the story that inspired

43:15

this podcast, check out my

43:17

memoir, Inheritance. For

43:28

more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

43:33

the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or

43:37

wherever you listen to your favorite

43:39

shows. Best

43:58

offer yet. purchase this month and

44:01

receive a free diamond tennis bracelet valued at $2,000.

44:04

That's right, any engagement ring, any diamond necklace,

44:06

any timepiece, purchase any item valued at $10,000

44:08

or more and receive

44:11

a stunning diamond tennis bracelet at no extra

44:13

cost. Every purchase of $10,000 or more qualifies. So

44:17

hurry into Diamonds Direct. Your chance to get a

44:19

free tennis bracelet ends June 30th. Details

44:21

at diamondsdirect.com. Hey,

44:24

it's Paris Hilton. Check out my

44:26

new single, I'm Free, featuring Rina

44:29

Sawayama. I'm free to

44:31

do what I want to be.

44:34

The song can change your life. And that's

44:36

what Free by Ultra Nete did for me.

44:38

My first single for my new album, Infinite

44:40

Icon, is a reimagined version of the iconic

44:42

song. Listen to I'm Free

44:44

on iHeartRadio or wherever you stream music.

44:47

And visit infiniteicon.com to presave

44:49

my album. Sponsored by 1111 Media.

44:54

Wherever you are in the world, it's

44:56

an exciting time in politics. Take a

44:59

deep dive into the stories making the

45:01

news headlines across the world. The news

45:03

agents. We're not just here to tell

45:05

you what's happening, but why. From me,

45:07

Emily Maitless. And me, John Sople. With

45:09

Global's award-winning podcast, the news agents dropping

45:11

daily, covering everything you need to know

45:13

about politics and current affairs. And the

45:15

news agents USA in the race for

45:18

the White House. Listen to the news

45:20

agents on Global Player. Your

45:24

new home journey starts at Fisher Homes,

45:26

where everything is red, white and new.

45:28

Explore exclusive summer savings and start your

45:30

journey by selecting your ideal home site

45:32

and your dream community. Choose from a

45:35

variety of expertly designed floor plans and

45:37

bring your style to life at the

45:39

Lifestyle Design Center. Are you looking for

45:41

a quick move-in ready home instead? Fisher

45:43

Homes has options for those too. Fill

45:46

out a form to connect with a

45:48

new home advisor at fisherhomes.com to get

45:50

started today before the sun sets on

45:52

summer savings. So

45:54

the quarterly projections are

45:58

in the red area there. And these numbers. I

46:01

guess should be higher. This

46:03

doesn't make any sense. Wait, you're not even our

46:05

finance director. Who are you? Oh, I'm

46:08

the delivery driver. Anyone order the noodle bowl? We

46:10

need a receptionist. No, we need

46:12

Sign-In App. From managing visitors to

46:14

risk reduction and office scheduling, trust

46:16

Sign-In App for your confident workplace.

46:18

Cloud secure with app convenience. Sign-In

46:20

App keeps your office and business

46:22

on track. Start for free at

46:25

signinapp.com.