0:03

Welcome to episode

0:05

323 of

0:08

FBI Retired Case File Review

0:10

with Jerry Williams. I'm

0:13

a retired agent on a

0:15

mission to show you who

0:17

the FBI is and what

0:19

the FBI does through my

0:21

books, my blog, and my

0:23

podcast case reviews with former

0:25

colleagues. Today, well, today is

0:27

a crossover episode with Stop

0:29

the Killing podcast. When

0:31

the host, Catherine Swate and Sarah

0:34

Farris, invited me to be a guest on the show,

0:36

I suggest that we

0:38

talk about the deadly force

0:40

policy and review the responsibility

0:42

undertaken by everyone who carries

0:44

a gun, whether they're a

0:47

law enforcement officer or a

0:49

private citizen. Our conversation is

0:51

also posted as season four,

0:53

episode 58 and 59 on

0:57

the Stop the Killing podcast. I'm

0:59

posting this show here on FBI

1:01

Retired Case File Reviews feed for

1:03

those who haven't had the

1:05

opportunity to hear this impactful

1:08

discussion. I've never shot

1:10

anyone, nor have I been shot.

1:12

Neither have Kate or Sarah. I

1:14

wanted to respectfully represent those who

1:16

have had to take a life

1:18

to save a life and those

1:20

who have been shot in the

1:22

line of duty. So the voices

1:24

of agents describing what it's like

1:26

to be in a gun battle

1:28

have been included in this episode

1:30

to bring authenticity to the topic.

1:33

We've added audio clips from

1:35

some of my previously recorded

1:37

shows with retired agents involved

1:39

in shooting incidents. In

1:42

your podcast app's description of this episode,

1:44

you'll find a link to the Stop

1:46

the Killing podcast website, as well as

1:49

a link to my show notes for

1:51

this episode at jerrywilliams.com, where

1:53

you'll find a photo of Catherine and

1:56

Sarah, links to the two US Supreme

1:58

Court rulings define America's

2:00

deadly force policies and the DOJ

2:03

FBI use of force policy. You'll

2:05

find a link to where you

2:07

can join my reader team to

2:10

keep up with the FBI and

2:12

books TV and movies. If you're

2:14

a member of my reader team,

2:17

my July issue should be in

2:19

your inbox already. You'll also find

2:21

links to where you can buy

2:24

me a cup of

2:26

coffee and learn more about

2:28

me and my nonfiction book,

2:30

FBI Mists and Misconceptions, a

2:33

manual for armchair detectives, and

2:35

my two FBI crime novels

2:37

Pay to Play and Greedy

2:39

Givers, all available as

2:42

ebooks and paperbacks wherever books

2:44

are sold and audiobooks on

2:47

Audible and Spotify. I

2:49

dedicate this show to all

2:51

law enforcement officers who have

2:53

made the ultimate sacrifice. I

2:55

hope my conversation with Katherine

2:58

and Sarah provides an understanding

3:00

of what it's like to

3:02

carry a gun. Please stay

3:04

safe and thank you for

3:06

your support. Now here's the

3:08

show. On

3:11

the morning of August 1st 1966 shots

3:14

ring out from the observation deck

3:16

of the clock tower on the

3:18

University of Texas campus. It marks

3:21

the infamous beginning of the modern

3:23

era of mass shootings in America.

3:26

I'm Sarah Ferris, true crime podcaster.

3:28

And I'm Katherine Schweight, the former

3:30

head of the FBI's active shooter

3:32

program. And you're listening to Stop

3:34

the Killing. This

3:37

is Katherine Schweight. I'm here with Sarah Ferris

3:40

for another episode of Stop the Killing. And

3:42

we're happy that you joined us today. We

3:45

have a discussion I think that

3:48

you will find fascinating because it's

3:50

one that you don't really hear,

3:52

which is law enforcement officers talking

3:55

about the challenges

3:57

to carrying a gun and firing a

3:59

gun. a gun and the decisions that

4:01

they have to make. I'd like to

4:03

talk a little bit about civilians carrying

4:05

guns and just kind of roll those

4:07

two thoughts together to see because we're

4:09

all, you know, people carrying guns, making

4:12

decisions. And so today we are so

4:14

honored to have on the show

4:17

our good friend, Jerry Williams, who like me

4:19

was in the FBI, but she was in

4:21

for 26 years, mostly in Philadelphia,

4:24

24 of her 26 years

4:26

in Philly. So she is a Philly

4:28

gal for sure. But Jerry, welcome

4:32

to Stop the Killing. We're so thrilled

4:34

to have you here. Jerry has her

4:36

own podcast. Well,

4:38

thank you. Yeah, I've been the

4:41

host and producer of FBI

4:44

retired case file review for

4:48

more than eight years. I

4:50

started in January of 2016

4:53

and on the podcast, I

4:55

exclusively interview FBI

4:57

retirees, usually agents, but also

5:00

have had some wonderful professional

5:02

support staff on. And

5:05

we review a case or

5:07

an FBI program. Yeah. The

5:09

show's been running now for

5:11

many years and having a

5:13

fabulous time showing everyone who

5:16

the FBI is and what the FBI

5:18

does. I love that. It's something that

5:20

so often people say, well, what's it

5:22

like to be in the FBI? You

5:24

want to know what that's like? Listen

5:27

to Jerry's podcast. And she has

5:29

talked to many agents who have

5:31

been in firefights or avoided firefights,

5:33

gunfights, you would call them. And

5:36

so she brings a

5:38

beautiful expanse of

5:41

views about how we've dealt with

5:43

this over the years and our

5:46

own deadly force policy. That's what it's

5:48

called, the deadly force policy. So we're

5:50

thrilled to have Jerry on today to

5:52

talk specifically about what

5:54

does that mean? Deadly force policy when

5:56

a law enforcement officer makes

5:59

a decision. to pull a gun, then

6:02

how does an officer make a decision to

6:05

fire or not fire a gun? And that's

6:07

called the deadly force policy. Every police department

6:09

has one. Federal, state, local,

6:11

tribal law enforcement officers have them. All

6:14

the departments have similarities in their

6:16

policies, but there are nuances to

6:18

different policies and every community and

6:21

law enforcement officer has its own

6:23

kind of word version of it.

6:26

But we're going to talk about the FBI's

6:28

version today, which is pretty similar to what

6:30

you would see in others just because we're

6:32

going to compare it with some stories about

6:34

FBI shoots and the challenges that come with

6:37

doing that. So welcome, Jerry.

6:39

That's my real welcome. Welcome, Jerry. Thank

6:41

you. When I got the

6:43

invitation from you and Sarah

6:45

about coming on the show, I thought to myself,

6:48

what can I bring that will

6:50

add to your show and

6:52

give value? And the

6:55

first thing that I thought about was

6:57

that whenever I go to speak to

6:59

a group, especially if they're children,

7:01

the first thing they ask is,

7:03

have you ever been shot or

7:05

have you ever shot anyone? That

7:07

does not surprise me. Luckily, and

7:09

I say luckily because taking a

7:11

life is just an unbelievable thing.

7:13

Even if you are in the

7:15

right and you're doing it for

7:17

all the right reasons, I cannot

7:20

imagine what that must

7:22

mean to anyone that has

7:24

had to do that. So I'm very fortunate

7:26

to be able to say, no, I've never

7:28

shot anybody and I have never been shot.

7:31

But I have been throughout

7:34

my career in those situations

7:36

where my gun is out

7:38

of the holster. I

7:41

haven't had to make a decision. But

7:43

when you go into a house and to make an

7:46

arrest, your guns are out

7:48

of the holster. And

7:51

in an arrest situation, you've got to be on the

7:53

ready. You don't know what's going to happen behind the

7:55

door. I was a fraud

7:57

investigator. I worked Ponzi's

7:59

skis. and embezzlement and things like

8:01

that. But as I always stress

8:03

to people who are interested in coming to the

8:05

FBI, just because that's going to

8:08

be your assignment or that's the area

8:10

you want to work in, you are

8:12

a body and at the FBI needs

8:14

a body to go someplace and

8:16

you're there, then you go. So

8:18

I have been on many, many

8:20

arrests. I was assigned for about

8:22

three or four years in our

8:24

Cherry Hill office out of Philadelphia

8:26

and that covered Camden. And

8:29

it was during a time when

8:31

Camden was one of the biggest

8:33

drug markets in the country and

8:35

one of the murder capitals and

8:37

I went on every single major

8:40

drug arrest, you know, or search

8:42

warrant that they had. So yeah, I've

8:44

been placed in those situations many,

8:46

many times. And so yeah, I really was

8:49

interested in talking about this topic.

8:52

I think that it's something that probably

8:55

people like where Sarah lives

8:57

in the UK, you

8:59

know, in London, they don't experience on a

9:01

regular basis and maybe don't

9:03

ever dissect, I would guess,

9:05

right Sarah? Well, that's interesting because

9:07

I just finished editing an episode that

9:10

we've done with the retired Scotland

9:13

Yard homicide detective Stephen Keough, which will be coming

9:15

out before this. So pop back in the feed

9:17

and have a look. He was

9:19

speaking about how it's not a decision

9:21

that he had to make. He didn't

9:23

even carry a weapon at all the

9:25

entirety of his career. And

9:27

I asked him if he

9:29

had to carry a weapon and knew

9:31

that was part of his job to

9:34

possibly have to pull a weapon on someone

9:36

if that would have changed his career path.

9:38

And yeah, we're gonna have to tune in

9:40

to see what he says. But I want

9:42

to ask him back, cliffhanger ladies, cliffhanger, we

9:44

love it. But I want to ask that

9:46

question to you, Catherine, as well. Have you

9:48

ever had to pull

9:51

your weapon on anyone? Oh, yes.

9:53

I mean, I've pulled my weapon on

9:55

people because that is, as Jerry

9:58

was just saying, there are many

10:00

occasions when a law enforcement officer has to

10:02

have their gun out. Have

10:04

I ever had to pull a gun out and return

10:06

fire because I was afraid somebody was going to shoot

10:08

me? No, I've never been

10:10

shot and I've never fired at

10:12

anyone. And that is probably

10:15

a common experience for most law

10:17

enforcement officers. And we certainly know

10:20

it is for most FBI

10:22

agents. And Jerry mentioned talking

10:24

to kids. That is the first

10:26

thing that kids always ask you. I still concur. When

10:30

kids would ask me, I would always answer

10:32

that question. And then I would say, you

10:34

know, my job as an FBI agent is

10:37

to arrest people and take them to court

10:40

so that judges and juries can

10:42

decide whether or not they did

10:44

something wrong. So if I have

10:46

to shoot somebody, probably we kind

10:49

of did something, you know, wrong earlier on.

10:51

Maybe we might have been able to do

10:53

something before that to avoid a shooting. You

10:55

can't always avoid a shoot and you don't

10:57

invite it. You just have to be prepared

11:00

when it happens and you have to be

11:02

very skilled for that. And so we do

11:04

a lot of training for that. And I've

11:06

given so much thought to the idea of

11:09

if I did have to shoot and kill somebody and

11:11

they were people I'm sure Jerry in your class, they

11:13

were in my class. There were two

11:15

people in my class who chose to

11:17

step aside because they decided

11:19

after all the training, they did not

11:21

want to be in a

11:23

position where they might have to kill another human

11:26

being. Interesting. Yeah, I don't think

11:28

there was anybody in my class that

11:30

left because of that. But I have

11:32

certainly heard of people who didn't get

11:34

the memo when they were recruited. And

11:36

once they got to Quantico and they

11:39

had that gun in their hands and

11:41

they were doing the training, they realized

11:44

I thought I could do it, but this is not for me. Our

11:47

firearms trainers at Quantico were very

11:49

supportive of that. And they would

11:51

say that often they would

11:53

say, as we go through this, if

11:55

you think you cannot do this, we're

11:57

fine with that. We will

12:00

find out. another job for you in the

12:02

FBI to make sure that

12:04

you have a career that you find

12:06

fulfilling. We want you to be comfortable

12:08

going to this spot because it's also

12:10

important to the agents around you that

12:13

you are able to protect them if they

12:16

need your firepower. And I always

12:18

remembered that. I would always go to the gym.

12:20

I always tried to stay strong because I knew

12:22

that if I was in a fire fight, if

12:24

somebody was near me and they got hit, I

12:26

would have to use my strength to

12:29

pull a hundred and eighty pound guy out of

12:31

harm's way, you know, behind the wall or behind

12:33

the car where I was. And the only way

12:35

to do that was to stay strong and I

12:38

always thought about that. So you prep for it,

12:40

but I was never in one either. No. Gun

12:42

out a lot though, just like Jerry said. Action

12:45

is faster than reaction and

12:47

my second week in the FBI, a tactical team

12:49

came through and said, hey can you come

12:51

with us? We need to go arrest this guy

12:54

who's wanted for murder and

12:56

I was clearing a stairwell with my gun

12:58

out, you know, the second week

13:00

in the FBI. Thinking to yourself,

13:03

oh my god, this is just like

13:05

on TV. I know. Back to back

13:09

with another agent behind me, we're going

13:11

up the stairs one step

13:13

at a time with our guns out.

13:15

It's just like on TV, right? Yeah,

13:17

yeah. They really do that. It is

13:19

amazing, you know, when you're a new

13:21

agent and you are in those situations

13:23

that you realize, wow, this

13:25

is real. And I don't think you ever

13:28

get used to it. You know,

13:30

you might not be thinking about it as you're actually

13:32

going up the stairwell, but when you get home that

13:34

night, you're thinking like, wow, people

13:36

watch this on TV, but this is

13:38

reality, you know, this is my reality.

13:40

And I think in all seriousness, I

13:42

think it's something that maybe,

13:45

and thankfully maybe, the public

13:47

in general doesn't appreciate

13:49

the gravity of it. When a

13:51

law enforcement officer leaves right

13:53

for work, it's a different story

13:55

than when you leave for your job in

13:57

almost every other job. I want to I'm

13:59

going to ask Sarah. Yeah.

14:01

What do you think, Sarah? Would you have

14:04

been able to do this job? Oh,

14:07

great question. Do you think you would have been able to carry

14:09

again and go on a rest? Well,

14:11

Jerry, there's a fair few steps to

14:13

get there that I've missed already, isn't

14:15

there? I'd like to think I could,

14:17

but I would love to know if

14:19

it's a moment when you're going through

14:21

your training where that reality comes

14:24

kind of crashing down. Because I think, yes,

14:26

maybe I could, yes, I could. I

14:29

think there's probably going to be a point through that

14:31

training when I go, oh, this is really heavy, like

14:33

this might actually have to happen for me. But

14:36

to be honest, I think we've established

14:38

that I'd make a terrible law enforcement

14:40

person because I'm quite reactive and don't

14:43

think things through slowly and calmly first.

14:45

As Catherine witnessed when we were at

14:47

CrimeCon in London and I broke up

14:49

a fight of young teenage boys without

14:51

even blinking twice. I get back to

14:54

the table and I'm like, come on,

14:56

FBI table. And she's like, Sarah,

14:58

I've just learned to be a really good

15:00

witness. And I'm like, that's why I'm not.

15:03

Yeah, she's like, she's like, go over to tables

15:05

full of boys who are getting up. They're like

15:07

standing up. They're going to go after it. They're

15:10

like, some of them are running out of the

15:12

building, some are coming in and Sarah's in the

15:14

middle doing like, hey, everybody break it up. I

15:16

was like literally putting them on the naughty steps.

15:18

So yeah, so I think the answer to that,

15:21

Jerry, is I'd like to think I could, but

15:23

I probably can't in all honesty. And

15:25

that's where the training comes in

15:28

too. So maybe once you got

15:30

into training and you learned from

15:32

also, you know, experience that would

15:34

have been something that you, you

15:36

know, would have been able to

15:38

do. But now you have to

15:40

know yourself. And definitely if

15:43

you have doubts, then

15:46

don't go into law enforcement. We don't

15:48

need people that doubt themselves. No,

15:51

because it is your, it's such a, it's

15:53

such a momentous responsibility. I think that when

15:55

you come in and you can take a

15:58

life or prevent. somebody

16:00

from taking another life. You

16:03

can save a life. It

16:05

is a big responsibility and you have to

16:07

appreciate the gravity of it every

16:10

moment that you're working because when

16:12

you carry a gun, civilian

16:14

or not, when you carry a gun, you're

16:17

always in a position where you could end

16:20

a life and it might be yours.

16:22

I was a single mom raising two kids.

16:25

I would go to work and think,

16:28

I hope I make it back home or

16:30

these kids are going to have to move to

16:32

another state to live with their

16:34

dad. It doesn't just affect

16:37

you. There is

16:39

a phrase in law enforcement that has to do

16:41

with everybody goes home safe. Everybody

16:43

goes home safe. That's

16:46

the goal. First goal is go

16:48

home safe. And the other part of

16:50

it is that this gun becomes

16:52

a part of your body

16:55

because we wear it every single day.

16:57

That's the rule. If you're

16:59

an FBI agent and you're out someplace and

17:01

somebody says, go with me on an interview,

17:05

you can't say, oh, I don't have my

17:07

gun today. You better have it. You wear

17:09

it like it's, you know, your pants or

17:11

your shirt or your hat or whatever. It's

17:13

just part of who you are. And

17:16

so, yeah, you always have it going to

17:18

and during work, many

17:20

agents wore their gun 24

17:23

seven, even when they were home with their

17:25

kids. I didn't do that, but I would

17:27

say at least 50% of

17:29

the agents took their gun with them, even when

17:32

they went to the soccer game. Now, a lot

17:34

of times if I came home, I came directly

17:36

from work. Yeah, I had it on, but if

17:38

on a Saturday or Sunday, most likely I would

17:41

not have had it with me. My

17:43

gun went to amusement parks, movies,

17:46

church, grocery store.

17:49

I was not that agent. Well, you

17:51

know, the reason that I was that

17:53

agent is I think oftentimes I was

17:56

with my own children and I felt

17:58

that I had an extraordinary gift

18:00

of a skill that could

18:02

save my life and the life of

18:04

my children. And I wanted to

18:06

be prepared to use that. I'm

18:08

going to say something very controversial that I

18:11

might get some flack on, but

18:13

as a black female, I was

18:15

more afraid that if I was in a situation

18:18

where I had to pull out the gun, that

18:21

people would not automatically assume

18:23

that I was law enforcement.

18:25

I think that's absolutely true. I think they would for

18:28

you, but not necessarily for

18:30

me. And so to keep

18:32

my kids and family safe,

18:34

I did not. I

18:36

think that's a brilliant and not controversial.

18:38

That's the reality of what we are

18:40

in. And two things. One is that

18:43

if you don't know FBI agents have

18:45

no uniform. So we are in civilian

18:47

clothes all the time. So when an

18:50

FBI person pulls a gun out, we

18:52

look just like anybody else.

18:54

And no one would think that

18:57

we were law enforcement. That that's one

18:59

thing. The other thing is the reality

19:01

of what Jerry was just talking about

19:03

is we have a very well established,

19:06

sometimes implicit bias, sometimes outward

19:08

bias, historically about

19:11

judging people who have guns in their hands

19:13

that go against people who are not white.

19:16

I mean, I just want to summarize it

19:18

that way, which is probably not the most

19:20

eloquent way to summarize it. And

19:22

so because of that

19:24

historical view in

19:26

the country, when someone's making

19:28

a split second decision, you don't

19:31

want to be on the wrong side of

19:33

a split second decision. And

19:35

gunfire is such a

19:37

split second millisecond decision.

19:42

You don't want to be on the side of, oh, I

19:45

didn't know. And maybe I can

19:47

give you just an example of that. There

19:49

was a shooting in Ohio recently. I

19:52

don't want to provide all the details at this moment

19:54

because the reports are not on what the shoot was.

19:56

There was a phone call that came into non-emergency saying

19:58

that there was somebody with a guy. and the street,

20:01

the officer rolled up. You

20:03

can hear him on the body camera saying, hey,

20:05

you know, buddy, what's up? And then almost as

20:08

he's getting out of the car, he's saying this,

20:10

and then almost at the same time right

20:12

after that, you hear one shot

20:14

ring out, and then you hear

20:17

the person who shot saying, it's a toy,

20:20

it's a toy, it's a toy, it's a

20:22

toy, and it's a young black male. And

20:25

so I don't know what, you know, the

20:27

race to the officer is, it doesn't matter.

20:30

But the fact of the law enforcement

20:32

officer, this particular town has just, is

20:35

reeling from an officer shooting

20:37

that involved like four

20:40

dozen rounds into

20:42

a person who was killed. I mean,

20:44

just a horrible shooting that there's all

20:47

kinds of repercussions from, and in this

20:49

town, in the state, they're

20:51

now dealing with a

20:53

shooting of a 15, it turns out to be a 15

20:55

year old boy who was carrying a toy gun that

20:58

was not marked like a toy gun, it

21:00

was black. So now there's this

21:02

analysis about did the officer shoot,

21:04

and of course, not surprisingly, some people

21:07

are saying, oh well, they shot

21:09

him because he was black. Well, that's part

21:11

of that whole conversation about what are our

21:13

biases, how do you make a decision, which

21:15

really leads to what we wanted to talk

21:17

about today, which maybe Jerry, I'm going too

21:19

far afield, but just to ask you, maybe

21:21

could you articulate what a deadly force policy

21:23

is? Yeah, I actually looked

21:25

it up because I don't want to

21:27

improvise on this. And this is, this

21:29

has been updated since 2022 because there

21:31

have been a lot of issues

21:35

and a lot of things that have happened.

21:37

And so the Department of Justice updated this

21:40

May 20th of 2022. And

21:43

basically it says that deadly

21:45

force may not be

21:47

used solely to prevent the

21:49

escape of a fleeing suspect.

21:52

Law enforcement officers and correctional

21:54

officers of DOJ may use

21:56

deadly force only

21:58

when necessary. That

22:00

is when an officer has

22:02

a reasonable belief that the

22:05

subject of such force poses

22:07

an imminent danger of death

22:10

or serious physical injury to

22:13

the officer or to another

22:15

person. Firearms may not be

22:17

discharged solely to disable moving

22:20

vehicles. Firearms may

22:22

not be discharged at a moving vehicle.

22:25

It goes on about vehicles, but

22:27

basically you can only shoot

22:30

a gun to save

22:32

your life or the life

22:34

of another. Eminent danger.

22:38

In the phrase right before imminent danger

22:40

when it says only when necessary, can

22:42

you read that little part again? Yeah,

22:46

it says use deadly

22:48

force only when necessary. That

22:50

is when the officer has

22:53

a reasonable belief that

22:55

the subject of such force poses

22:58

an imminent danger of death

23:00

or serious physical injuries. And

23:03

those really are this being the lawyer

23:05

here, being a snobby lawyer about it

23:08

is those those like reasonable belief. There's

23:10

a lot of case law. There's a

23:12

lot of interpretation of what that exactly

23:15

means. Reasonable belief is what you and

23:17

I and most of the people would

23:19

reasonably believe. So you can't come up

23:22

and say, well, I thought and that's

23:24

good enough. It has to be if somebody

23:26

steps away and looks at the facts, is that

23:28

was that reasonable? So any time

23:30

there's law enforcement officer shoot a

23:33

firearms discharge, the law

23:35

enforcement agency or somebody that oversees

23:38

them does an evaluation of that

23:40

shoot. And they apply this kind of

23:42

a standard to say, is it reasonable?

23:44

So it's not enough for an officer

23:46

to say, well, you know, I thought

23:48

this. It's more would a lot of

23:50

people think that is that reasonable? And

23:52

then imminent danger is the second part

23:54

of that. This is not like I

23:57

thought he might do something. imminent

24:00

danger. So even in the circumstances which

24:02

the body camera that I saw for

24:04

the shooting in Ohio, which

24:06

is just out because it just happened,

24:09

the body camera doesn't show what the

24:12

young man was doing and it

24:14

doesn't really show of course what the officer, when

24:16

he took a weapon out of

24:18

his holster and when he fired or what

24:20

he could see because you can't see that

24:22

from this particular shot. But what part of

24:24

the evaluation in a good shoot or a

24:26

bad shoot is did that officer

24:29

feel that he was or

24:31

somebody else was in imminent danger? That's

24:33

very standard language in a

24:35

deadly force policy. Yeah, a lot of

24:38

times you hear people say they shot

24:40

because they feared for their life. Well,

24:43

what does that mean? That's not good

24:45

enough. You know, fear, being afraid is

24:48

not good enough. Eminent

24:51

danger. You thought you were gonna get

24:53

killed. You thought that he was gonna

24:55

kill that person. And

24:57

you had a reasonable belief of that.

25:00

Right, yes, yes, yes. You're

25:02

sitting locked in your house and

25:04

you hear somebody outside and you fire

25:07

outside the house. Are

25:10

you in imminent danger? Yeah,

25:12

yeah, yeah. I should stress

25:14

that you thought because he

25:16

raised his gun or he

25:19

put his hand in this jacket or you

25:21

know made some move. That still doesn't make,

25:23

I mean, it's still

25:25

gonna have to be evaluated, but

25:27

what was it? What happened?

25:29

What action was taken that made

25:32

you feel imminent danger? So, yeah,

25:36

it's a split second decision. And

25:39

through our training, we learn,

25:41

you know, hopefully that

25:44

muscle memory of how to

25:46

make that split second decision,

25:49

but all of us have gone

25:52

through those scenarios and sometimes we're

25:54

wrong, dead wrong. Right. Well,

25:57

it is muscle memory, it is training. carry

1:10:00

this. And he went back into the store

1:10:03

and he followed the shooter. And what

1:10:06

he didn't know is that shooter's

1:10:08

wife was also a shooter and

1:10:10

she was right behind him. And

1:10:13

she lifted her gun and popped him in the head

1:10:15

and killed him. You don't

1:10:17

know the circumstances. You're not trained to

1:10:19

do what law enforcement is trained to

1:10:21

do. Think about that. Before

1:10:23

you carry a gun and most importantly, think

1:10:26

about that before you choose to pull a

1:10:28

gun out of the holster. You

1:10:30

really said everything that I would say, but

1:10:33

the most important thing is also

1:10:36

when you think about the consequences,

1:10:38

think about the responsibility. And if

1:10:40

you are going to carry a

1:10:43

gun, make sure

1:10:45

you keep up with your training.

1:10:48

Yes. You know, just because you bought a gun

1:10:50

and then you took a course, you

1:10:52

know, three years ago is not adequate.

1:10:55

It is not responsible. You know,

1:10:57

law enforcement and the FBI, four

1:11:00

times a year we go to

1:11:02

firearms training to qualify. And you

1:11:05

shoot more often than that, but that's

1:11:07

just to qualify every quarter just to

1:11:09

qualify. And so

1:11:12

as a gun owner who is going

1:11:14

to be carrying their gun and making

1:11:16

this split second decisions, your

1:11:19

brain will be able to

1:11:22

adapt to those situations better

1:11:24

if you are training on a regular

1:11:27

basis. I want to

1:11:29

add one thing about civilians. Jerry mentioned before

1:11:31

that she chose not to carry

1:11:33

as much off duty as

1:11:35

I chose to carry on duty. I

1:11:38

had conversations with my kids to

1:11:41

say, if this gun comes out

1:11:43

of the holster, you cannot

1:11:45

be anywhere near me because

1:11:48

if somebody is firing a gun at me,

1:11:50

you could be hit. So when

1:11:52

you're out with your family and you're out with

1:11:54

your friends and you're carrying a gun, recognize

1:11:56

that if somebody is shooting back at you,

1:11:59

they're going to. possibly kill the people who

1:12:01

you love the most who you're with. Wow.

1:12:04

You just a box of fluffy. Yeah.

1:12:06

That's that's why that, that is real

1:12:08

talk real truth. And

1:12:11

I think if nothing else

1:12:14

hits home for somebody who is

1:12:17

out there and has made the

1:12:19

decision to carry a gun, that's

1:12:22

the thing that they need to think about

1:12:24

the most. Who's with

1:12:26

you and how are

1:12:29

those consequences going to blow

1:12:31

back on your loved ones, your

1:12:33

friends, your family? Wow.

1:12:36

You know, when I wrote back and

1:12:38

suggested this, I had no idea how

1:12:42

what's the word. I don't know what the word I

1:12:44

want to use powerful just seems like a cliche, but

1:12:47

you know, my, my hands are cold

1:12:49

and clammy. And I'm just thinking about

1:12:51

this show and how we may have

1:12:54

saved someone's life or

1:12:56

other people's lives by

1:12:58

giving them this opportunity to hear

1:13:01

the realities of what it's like

1:13:03

to take a life or to

1:13:06

have your life taken in a

1:13:08

gun situation. And

1:13:11

that's the end of my

1:13:13

conversation about the deadly force

1:13:15

policy with Catherine Swite and

1:13:18

Sarah Ferris, host of the

1:13:20

stop the killing podcast and

1:13:22

your podcast apps description of

1:13:24

this episode. You'll find a

1:13:26

link to the stop the

1:13:28

killing podcast website and

1:13:30

a link to my FBI retired

1:13:32

case file review show notes for

1:13:35

this episode at Jerry williams.com. There

1:13:38

you'll find a photo of

1:13:40

Catherine and Sarah links to

1:13:42

the two primary US Supreme

1:13:44

court rulings that define America's

1:13:46

deadly force policies, a

1:13:48

copy of the DOJ FBI,

1:13:50

deadly force policy, and links

1:13:52

to each of the FBI

1:13:55

retired case file review episodes

1:13:57

from which the powerful audio

1:13:59

clips. from agents involved in

1:14:01

shooting incidents originated, as well

1:14:03

as a recent FBI report

1:14:05

on officers killed or assaulted

1:14:07

in the line of duty.

1:14:10

In your podcast app's description of this

1:14:12

episode, you'll also find links where you

1:14:14

can join my reader team to keep

1:14:16

up with the FBI and books, TV,

1:14:18

and movies. If you're a member of

1:14:20

my reader team, my July issue should

1:14:23

be in your inbox already. Buy

1:14:25

me a cup of coffee

1:14:27

and learn more about me

1:14:29

and my nonfiction book, FBI

1:14:31

Mists and Misconceptions, and my

1:14:33

two FBI crime novels, Pay

1:14:35

to Play and Greedy Givers,

1:14:37

all available as eBooks and

1:14:39

paperbacks wherever books are sold,

1:14:41

and audiobooks on Audible and

1:14:44

Spotify. Now here's more

1:14:46

about the Stop the Killing podcast.

1:14:53

Thanks for listening. And if you want to

1:14:55

know more, Catherine's book, Stop the Killing, is

1:14:57

out now. For more details, go to catherineschwite.com.

1:15:00

Please consider also supporting our independently

1:15:02

made podcast. It's simple to do.

1:15:04

Go to patreon.com/stop the killing. And

1:15:06

for as little as the price

1:15:08

of a latte a month, you

1:15:10

can be part of the solution

1:15:12

to stop the killing. Patreon

1:15:15

rewards range from official do-gooder status

1:15:17

to ad-free episodes, autographed books, and

1:15:20

opportunities to connect with us directly

1:15:22

for your business, school, church, or even

1:15:24

just a book club chat. But just

1:15:26

knowing that you are part of a

1:15:28

movement that has the power to make

1:15:30

your community safer, well, that's got to

1:15:32

taste better than a skinny cappuccino any

1:15:34

day. So please head to patreon.com/stop the

1:15:36

killing now and polish off your do-gooder

1:15:38

halo and make sure to include your

1:15:41

name so we can give you a

1:15:43

shout out. This podcast is

1:15:45

a Con-munity podcast production that's con

1:15:47

with an N. If you want

1:15:49

more content, then head over to

1:15:52

Con-munity podcast at Instagram, where you'll

1:15:54

find trailers on more binge-worthy true

1:15:56

crime, like the award-winning podcast Conning

1:15:59

the Con. Finally, if

1:16:01

you want one takeaway action that you

1:16:03

can do right now that can help

1:16:05

make our community safer, everybody needs to

1:16:08

know that they hold the keys to

1:16:10

see something and say something. Together,

1:16:13

we can stop the killing. It's

1:16:17

one of those things you hope never happens, but you

1:16:19

better train for it because

1:16:21

it will happen and it will happen in

1:16:24

places you wouldn't expect. Be

1:16:27

ready for it.