0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast

0:06

where we read books and other words, too.

0:08

I'm Lily.

0:09

And I'm Sarah, and I am so delighted

0:11

to welcome author Ciel Pirlo back

0:13

onto the podcast, this time to talk about

0:16

her new vampire novel, The Hunter's Gambit.

0:18

Welcome!

0:19

Hello. Hi. Thank you for

0:21

having me.

0:22

Thank you for coming on. We loved this

0:24

book. It was excellent. So

0:26

excited to talk about it.

0:29

But before we dive into that incredible

0:32

conversation we have ahead of us, first,

0:34

our introduction questions. What's something

0:37

great that happened recently?

0:38

I took a nap today. It

0:40

was excellent.

0:41

Oh, that's, that's a good one. That's pretty good. Yeah.

0:43

Yeah.

0:44

Very needed. 10 out of 10. Would

0:46

nap again.

0:47

Hopefully we'll nap again.

0:49

Yeah.

0:50

Definitely will nap again.

0:52

Let's see.

0:53

This is the hardest question on the whole podcast.

0:55

This is the hardest question. I'm like, as soon

0:57

as people ask me, I'm like, I've never done anything in my

0:59

life ever.

1:01

Yeah. I just spawned into existence

1:03

just now.

1:04

I recently moved into a new place

1:07

and I was very excited to find this place because

1:09

the rent is only like 500 a

1:11

month.

1:12

Jesus, where do you, like, are you

1:14

in Antarctica?

1:15

I'm in a place in Canada and I am sharing

1:17

a house with like three other people. So

1:19

part of the reason it's cheap is because I have roommates.

1:22

But yeah, great rent. Absolutely.

1:24

If you're willing to live in a room with really

1:27

short sloped ceilings. You

1:29

can get such a huge discount and I'm

1:31

short as hell. So it doesn't bother me.

1:32

perfect. My good thing is that

1:35

my cats are high as hell right now.

1:38

They're very sweet. They went to the vet today

1:40

just to get their nails trimmed because we don't

1:43

do that ourselves. And

1:46

the vet actually called us. We have a

1:48

gabapentin prescription for one of

1:50

our cats because he is just so bad

1:53

at car rides. It stresses him out so much.

1:55

So they gave us a prescription to calm him

1:57

down a little bit. And they called us and said, would

1:59

you, uh, would you give that to your other cat

2:01

too? So she doesn't attack us.

2:05

So we did. And they got back about

2:07

an hour ago and they are just absolutely

2:10

zonked out. It's very cute.

2:12

They're having a good time.

2:14

Little stony balonies. What is everyone

2:17

drinking tonight?

2:18

Well it is a vampire novel, so I

2:20

did feel compelled to open up a bottle

2:22

of red wine.

2:23

Oh, a classic classic. Yeah.

2:26

I just have a water bottle that I've filled

2:28

with soda.

2:29

Also excellent.

2:31

I am drinking the Laika,

2:33

which is a mixed drink of fiction

2:35

fans creation. We invented

2:38

it as a drink pairing with

2:40

Solstitia, our literary magazine

2:42

that's coming out this week. And my husband

2:44

was like, You have to actually try that before

2:46

you print the recipe. You can't just print

2:49

the recipe. And I was like, okay, fine.

2:50

I do think that you mean that's already out,

2:53

because by the time this episode is released

2:55

it will be out.

2:56

Okay, yes, that's the one.

2:58

Yes. This episode is time traveling.

3:00

Yes. Yes.

3:02

inspired by Yorsh, which

3:04

my loose research told me is

3:07

a mixed drink enjoyed in Russia

3:09

that's just beer and vodka. We don't like

3:11

beer, so our version is cider and vodka.

3:14

It tastes like cider. It's

3:16

good.

3:17

Pretty good. I agree. Cider is

3:19

infinitely better than beer.

3:20

Yeah.

3:21

Yes.

3:22

That is my beverage of the evening. This

3:24

is actually a book podcast, and

3:27

other than the wonderful novel we're about

3:29

to discuss at length, has anyone read anything

3:31

good lately? Have

3:36

author, Goodreads, Y

3:38

is the percentage right over

3:40

the author's name. Nana Kwame

3:42

Adjei, something that starts

3:44

with a B and I can't actually see it. And

3:47

it's really good, but also

3:49

a book that I have to read in

3:51

short bursts because it's very,

3:53

like, emotionally difficult.

3:56

But, uh, yeah. I read that on the plane to

3:58

Utah because I just got back from Utah, and

4:00

then I read Hunter's Gambit on the plane back.

4:03

It's a good plane book.

4:04

It is a good plane book. It kept me entertained.

4:06

I was like, I need this plane ride to be longer, actually,

4:09

so I can keep reading.

4:10

The one time in your life you're like, Yeah, I'd rather

4:13

stay on the plane for a little bit more.

4:15

Yep.

4:15

to normally where you're like, Let me out of here!

4:19

Well, I got to, like, the 40 percent mark,

4:21

and it, like, things were really starting to heat up,

4:23

and I was like, I need, I can't just

4:25

stop here.

4:27

I'm glad to hear it was captivating enough

4:29

for a plane ride.

4:30

Yes, absolutely.

4:32

you read anything lately?

4:34

I've been reading, it's an older series,

4:36

it came out in the aughts, but a friend of mine recommended

4:38

it to me recently. I've been reading The Fever

4:41

Series by Karen Mremoning. It's

4:43

very like, contemporary,

4:45

paranormal, romance series.

4:48

It's really good, I highly recommend it, I blew

4:50

through the first five books, which is basically,

4:52

I want to say the original series. There's like

4:54

sequels to it that I haven't gotten to yet, but

4:56

the original series, as it were, was really

4:59

good. I was not expecting to like it as much as I did

5:01

because I generally don't read a lot of contemporary,

5:03

but yeah, really great. 10 out of 10

5:05

recommend.

5:06

Well, the only book I have read recently was

5:09

The Hunter's Gambit, so let's

5:11

dive in. CL, genre

5:13

definitions are extremely

5:15

personal and I feel like vary wildly

5:18

from person to person. This is obviously

5:20

a fantasy novel and there's romance

5:22

in it, but I don't know if I would necessarily

5:25

call it a romance

5:27

novel and I was wondering what your opinion

5:29

was on that.

5:30

So personally, I would definitely not

5:32

call it a romance novel because I think

5:35

the thing that defines a romance novel

5:37

is, well, it's two things. The

5:39

first is that the romance has

5:42

to be the main plot. You know, there's

5:44

like side plots, there's background characters

5:46

that are doing their own thing, but the main plot

5:48

is the will they won't they will they get

5:50

together. plot. And

5:53

the second thing that defines a romance novel is a

5:55

happily ever after or a happily for now. And

5:57

that has to be like the defining goal

6:00

that you're working towards because romance

6:02

readers want that. So I would not

6:04

define this as a romance just because

6:06

the romance is there, but it is not the main plot.

6:09

I would define this as fantasy just because the

6:11

general plot is kind of a fantasy plot.

6:13

If you strip away like the spiciness,

6:16

as it were, it's just a straight up fantasy. Fantasy

6:18

plot. There's a new, like, mixed genre

6:21

that's been, like, coming into common

6:23

use lately that's romanticy,

6:25

which is just, I think it's fantasy

6:28

where the romance is spicier,

6:30

as opposed to, like, some fantasy books

6:32

where there's, you know, romance, but it's a little

6:34

bit more bitter. background or it's a little

6:36

more PG, as it were.

6:39

So I've seen a lot of people use romanticy

6:41

to define more, shall we say, adult

6:44

fantasy novels. So I've

6:46

been using romanticy occasionally

6:48

to define Hunter's Gambit. Just cause,

6:51

spoiler alert, it is a little spicy

6:53

in places. Personally, I think

6:55

that oftentimes really strict genre

6:57

definitions can really help,

7:00

but sometimes they can also hinder. So I do

7:02

like that we're getting more hybrid genres,

7:04

like space fantasy, romanticy,

7:07

like that type of stuff where it kind of combines two to

7:09

be like, no, it's in the middle. So yeah, I

7:12

would define Hunter's Gambit as a fantasy first

7:14

and a romanticy second.

7:15

That's really interesting. I'd not considered it as

7:17

a romanticy, but I think you're right, like, it

7:20

definitely does fit that genre as

7:22

well. And talking about

7:24

the romance and the love interests, there

7:26

are two of them. There's Adrius, who we meet very

7:29

early on, and then Rhea, who we meet a

7:31

little bit later. And they have kind of two

7:33

very different introductions.

7:36

Can you talk a little bit about how

7:38

their introductions compare and,

7:40

like, what it says about their characters? There's Adrius.

7:43

So when I was writing Adrius,

7:45

he's a character who

7:47

very much can only really be himself

7:50

when he's not around other vampires

7:52

for various reasons that are maybe

7:54

a little more spoilery, I don't heckin know. So

7:57

when he first meets our protagonist

7:59

Kazan at a party, he is pretending

8:01

to be human, so he's able

8:04

to be a much more open version

8:06

of himself. And I really wanted that

8:08

because I wanted the first glimpse of him you get

8:10

to be who he truly is

8:12

as a person and not who he spends

8:15

a lot of the book pretending to be around other

8:17

people. So I wanted to very deliberately

8:19

put him in a position where you the

8:21

reader and also Kazan the character know

8:24

who he is right away, right

8:26

at the start. You're like, this is his personality, he

8:28

is a vampire, this is kind of what he does,

8:31

like that kind of thing. You get to know him right

8:33

away so that then later on when he's kind of

8:35

pretending to be someone else you're like, wait, what the

8:37

fuck happened to this dude? What's going on?

8:39

As opposed to Rhea, where there

8:42

isn't the same level of deception with her, she's

8:44

never really pretending to be somebody else,

8:46

she does a lot of like, political sneakiness,

8:49

but she's always very true to herself,

8:51

so I wanted to establish her really

8:54

from the first moment you meet her, not

8:56

just as a character, but very specifically

8:59

As a love interest. So the first

9:01

time Kazan meets Rhea, it is

9:03

in a very, I don't even necessarily

9:05

want to say meet cute kind of way.

9:08

It's way faster than that. But

9:10

I wanted the reader to get the sense right away

9:12

that like, oh, Rhea's also a love interest.

9:15

Cool. There's no confusion there. It

9:17

very clearly, immediately, she's on

9:19

the love interest, like, list, as it were.

9:22

You mentioned Adrius

9:24

having to pretend to be someone

9:26

he's not in vampire society, and

9:28

I think now that I've started asking

9:31

this question out loud it's probably a spoiler

9:33

question.

9:34

We can shuffle it to the back half of the podcast.

9:37

I think maybe I'll just tease the listeners and

9:39

say that I have a lot of questions about

9:41

the theme of deception, lies,

9:45

and truth in this book. That

9:47

we will, we'll talk about that later,

9:49

but I'm gonna follow up on that.

9:51

Yes, that is definitely a major theme

9:53

of the book. They're all a bunch of lying

9:55

bitches. No, I'm just kidding.

9:58

right, what's not a spoiler is that we

10:01

got ourselves some vampires here.

10:03

We sure do.

10:04

Incredible. I love a good, just like,

10:06

indulgent vampire story that's

10:09

like, you know what? This is vampires and I'm

10:11

not going to pretend it's not. And

10:13

I was wondering if you had a favorite vampire

10:16

story other than, of course, The

10:18

Hunter's Gambit.

10:19

Oh gosh, what is my favorite vampire story

10:21

other than The Hunter's Gambit? Tough question.

10:24

Honestly, Dracula's a classic. It's

10:26

hard to beat the classics. It

10:29

feels almost, like, trite to say, like,

10:31

Oh, my favorite is the one that established the genre.

10:33

Like, oh, I love the classics. But

10:36

I think it's, it's just good. It slaps.

10:38

And there's definitely a lot of, you know, ye

10:40

olde vampire tropes that

10:42

I tried to kind of incorporate.

10:45

into Hunter's Gambit. I really

10:47

like It was a Dracula movie

10:49

that came out years and years ago. It

10:51

was the guy who plays Bard in the Hobbit

10:54

movies. Maybe I'm getting that wrong. I

10:56

don't know my faces very well. But he was

10:58

Dracula in this Dracula movie, and that I

11:00

actually really liked. It was just kind of self indulgent,

11:02

but it was good.

11:03

Is that Van Helsing?

11:04

No, it's not Van Hels Hold on,

11:06

let me, let me Google it.

11:07

Are you thinking Keanu Reeves?

11:10

That's the only

11:10

not thinking Keanu Reeves.

11:14

Dracula Untold.

11:16

Yes, that one.

11:18

And it is Luke Evans.

11:20

It is barred from the Hobbit movies.

11:22

I have, all my points of reference for actors

11:24

are like Doctor Who or Lord

11:27

of the Rings. Yeah, Dracula

11:29

Untold. I thought that was great. It was a little,

11:32

I don't want to say it was generic, but it

11:34

wasn't trying to do anything particularly different.

11:36

It was just trying to do something classic really

11:38

well, and I really liked it. Yeah, that

11:40

was a personal just, I liked it.

11:42

I did not know this movie existed and

11:44

I know what I am doing immediately after

11:46

this recording.

11:48

yeah, it's, I mean, Luke Evans is

11:50

very attractive. Putting that out there,

11:52

just very attractive.

11:54

And now I'm distracted. All right, putting that search

11:56

tab away.

11:57

Oh yeah, that's totally fair, yeah.

11:59

So you, you talk a little bit about tropes. One

12:01

of the fun things about vampire stories, particularly

12:04

modern vampire stories, is at

12:06

least for me as a reader, kind of playing

12:08

like what vampire rules will they use

12:11

since there's a lot of established

12:13

vampire tropes, but they're also kind of

12:15

loose. So, can you talk a little

12:17

bit about how much you brought in existing

12:20

classic tropes versus creating your

12:22

own rules and mythology for vampires?

12:25

So, I wanted to make

12:27

sure that I was keeping some

12:29

tropes that are active

12:31

weaknesses. So, in

12:33

the book series, silver actively harms

12:36

vampires. If vampires touch silver,

12:38

it hurts them. A classic trope,

12:40

silver is a weakness. I didn't want to include

12:43

anything that would be too

12:45

logistically complicated, like

12:47

can't cross running water,

12:50

or can't enter houses uninvited,

12:53

in part because none of that really shows up in

12:55

the book. And I'm one of those people where

12:57

if I write worldbuilding, particularly if

12:59

it's something that's going to hinder a character,

13:01

I want it to show up, I want it to have a purpose.

13:04

Neither of those two tropes, running

13:06

water or entering houses, are things

13:08

that ever show up in Gambit. So

13:10

I was just like, there's no point including those, there's no

13:12

point mentioning that, it's never gonna show up. Best

13:15

not to complicate it. The whole like.

13:17

Crosses wording away evil

13:19

trope just doesn't apply, crosses

13:21

aren't a thing in this universe, so, ain't

13:24

no point. Again, garlic never

13:26

showed up as like a plot point,

13:28

and I was just like, come on, let vampires

13:30

eat garlic, just let them have Italian

13:32

food. Not being able to have garlic

13:34

bread is just so sad.

13:36

I mean, that's not a fun eternity if

13:38

you can't eat garlic bread.

13:40

It's not! You're missing garlic

13:42

bread! I did want to keep

13:44

mentions of sort of

13:46

vampires being nocturnal. The

13:48

way I did it is more just, they like

13:50

sleeping during the day. It's

13:52

not like they must return to their

13:55

coffins when the sun is out. It's just,

13:57

they don't really like being awake during the day and

13:59

a lot of them like indulging in naps, so

14:01

they're just gonna take naps. Pretty great!

14:04

Yeah, so it was stuff like that where I kind

14:06

of wanted to take some classic things.

14:09

As long as they were things that I felt would

14:11

be useful to the world building.

14:13

What other tropes did I do? I want to There's

14:15

like two, but they're spoilers and I

14:17

don't I don't want to

14:18

Yeah, there's, there's one that I'm thinking about

14:20

that's definitely a spoiler, but I really

14:23

liked the way that you hint at it

14:25

in the beginning. And then say

14:27

like, is it a thing? I don't know. And

14:29

then it turns out to be a thing, but

14:31

I spoilers.

14:33

We're being incredibly vague. Go read the book and

14:35

you'll find out. Yeah, so it

14:37

was stuff like that. I do include mention

14:39

of like, vampires do actively

14:41

have to drink a certain amount of human blood

14:43

or else like, they're gonna starve.

14:45

I wanted to get rid of all that goddamn

14:48

like, oh you can just drink animal blood

14:50

and it's fine, shut the fuck up. Sorry,

14:52

sorry, that was too Not

14:55

to be If anyone's read the dedication

14:57

to this book, you'll understand. But

14:59

I wanted to make it very clear that like,

15:01

they do have to actively consume

15:04

human blood. That is a thing they have

15:06

to do. No choice about it. And they

15:08

have to consume a certain amount per month

15:10

or else they're essentially on like a starvation diet

15:12

and it's just not gonna be great.

15:14

But it's introduced very early on that that

15:16

does not necessarily mean killing people,

15:18

which I thought was a nice sort of balance.

15:21

You know, you need this thing, but

15:23

you don't have to be a dick about it.

15:26

Yeah, there is, there's a lot of characters

15:29

that kind of prefer to not

15:31

actively hunt down and murder people.

15:33

Because a lot of the society that I wanted to write

15:36

is kind of a bunch of posh, indulgent,

15:38

rich bastards. And a lot of

15:40

posh, indulgent, rich bastards are not

15:42

hunting their own food. So

15:44

there are many ways to get human blood in

15:46

this that don't involve actively killing

15:48

people. Oh, I guess the other vampire trope

15:50

that I include is Rowan Wood being

15:53

something else that can hurt vampires. I

15:55

didn't want to go with the classic wooden

15:57

stake to the heart thing. So I made it

15:59

that it's specifically Rowan wood,

16:02

which has like the wards away evil

16:04

type of trope attached to it. So

16:06

there are people who carry around Rowan

16:08

wood stakes specifically for vampires.

16:11

So that is something else. Yeah.

16:13

You mentioned that crosses just simply

16:15

are not a thing in this universe. And

16:18

sort of building off of that, right

16:20

away, during your world building, we

16:23

see, uh, Some really, like, wonderful,

16:25

casual equality in the

16:27

society in this book. Just, yeah,

16:30

there are women soldiers. Sure, there

16:32

are, like, ladies in charge of cities.

16:35

And I'm not going anywhere with that.

16:37

I just liked it.

16:38

I mean, I also like that. I feel like if I'm

16:41

writing any type of secondary world, I

16:43

kind of think to myself like, would there be sexism

16:45

in here? And if so, what would be

16:47

the point of it? And I was just like, there's no point

16:49

to having sexism in this book. Like, it would just kind

16:51

of waste time for a character

16:53

to like, overcome that. It just felt unnecessary.

16:56

Similarly, you know, as a queer woman, I

16:59

pretty much never write books that have any type

17:01

of homophobia in it. Just because that's not what I want

17:03

to read. So yeah, yeah, it's just one

17:05

of those things where I was like, ah, fine. Fuck it, people

17:07

can have different prejudices in this world.

17:10

I think especially in a fantasy novel,

17:12

because I'm like, this is indulgent, this

17:14

is fantasy, this is, you know,

17:17

wish fulfillment. Like, we can just

17:19

pretend. Let's just all pretend this

17:21

is a world with sexy vampires, and

17:23

why would I add bullshit to that? And

17:25

I loved it.

17:26

Yeah, I mean, I mean, what are, what are the things,

17:28

I feel like I incorporate this mentality into almost

17:30

every book I write, but very specifically with Hunter's

17:33

Gambit. I was like, I want people reading this to just

17:35

kind of have a good time. Like, I want

17:37

it to feel indulgent and like,

17:39

decadent, almost, if you can call a book

17:42

decadent. I don't know. So I was just like, eh, why,

17:44

why put sexism in there? Not gonna bother

17:46

with that.

17:47

Yeah.

17:47

Like you say, it doesn't serve a point in the book,

17:50

you know? So there's no need to have a

17:52

world where that's a thing.

17:53

Yeah, like, I know there's definitely a lot of fantasy

17:55

series that do include sexism, and it

17:58

plays a purpose in either the plot or like

18:00

character motivation or something, and I'm not going to try

18:02

and knock those books because I definitely think

18:04

that including various prejudices like sexism

18:07

can help serve a narrative if

18:09

that's the narrative you're going for. It just

18:11

didn't serve any point in Hunter's Gambit, so

18:13

I didn't include it.

18:14

Both types have their place, right? Cause sometimes

18:16

you're like, let's be thoughtful and explore

18:18

this. And sometimes you're like, could we not?

18:21

Yeah.

18:22

And this was fantastic. And I loved it.

18:24

We have teased a couple of things

18:27

that I'm very excited to talk about, but before

18:29

we get to the spoiler section, Sarah, who

18:31

should read this book?

18:32

You should read this book if you want

18:35

a lush atmosphere,

18:37

vampiric threesomes, and a lot of

18:39

bloody action.

18:41

Hell yeah, we have not talked about the gore at all,

18:43

but A

18:45

Oh yeah, there, there's a lot of, uh, there's

18:47

a lot of violence in this. If

18:49

you don't like your books with a bit of bloodshed,

18:52

uh, don't read this.

18:53

It's vampires! It's like good old fashioned vampires.

18:56

That means there's some killin involved.

18:57

Yes.

18:58

Yeah, let them be monstrous.

19:01

Let them, let them tear people apart. Just

19:03

go for it.

19:04

And they, they do indeed tear people apart in

19:06

this book.

19:07

That is true.

19:10

As part of our recent Patreon drive, we are

19:12

doing a round of patron shoutouts. Thank

19:14

you to Danny Finn for supporting fiction fans.

19:17

If you join our Patreon, you'll get access

19:19

to weekly bonus content like our Shoot, Screw,

19:21

or Marry series where we play, you

19:24

might've guessed it, Shoot, Screw, or Marry with

19:26

the characters from the books that we discuss on the podcast.

19:29

This week, we're actually going to be joined by

19:31

Ciel to talk about who

19:33

we'd screw from The Hunter's Gambit.

19:35

Thank you so much for support and for making this

19:37

podcast possible.

19:40

To avoid spoilers, skip to 53.

19:43

30. We

19:50

talked a little bit about how this book probably isn't

19:52

capital R romance.

19:55

However, The romantic

19:57

plotline is so central to the vibes

20:00

of this book, and I loved the tension

20:03

so much. But they don't

20:05

really end up together. I mean, maybe

20:07

they do. I don't know. I'm just a reader.

20:09

Well, if the book sells well enough,

20:11

I do actually have an idea for a

20:13

sequel in mind. Yeah,

20:16

when I was writing this, I was like, okay, I have

20:18

to sell this as a standalone, but in my

20:20

head, I'm like, it's a trilogy, it's book one of a trilogy,

20:22

please let me turn it into a trilogy, I'm begging

20:24

you, but obviously the way publishing works

20:27

is if book one doesn't sell, of course it's

20:29

not going to be signed on for a trilogy. That's

20:31

just, that's business, baby! But,

20:33

yeah, when I was, gosh, I feel like there's

20:35

a whole backstory to why it ended up just

20:37

being such a romanticy.

20:40

I really like

20:42

it when vampire novels

20:44

just kind of indulge in

20:46

the erotic nature of vampires.

20:49

And I was like, I'm not gonna, who

20:51

am I to mess with that? Certainly

20:54

not. And I was like, also, you

20:56

know what? Vampires are not straight. I'm

20:58

sorry. No vampires heterosexual. I

21:00

don't make the rules. I just, I call

21:02

it like I see it. So I was like, all right, this has

21:04

got to be like some kind of bisexual.

21:06

And then I was like, eh, heck it, let's make it poly.

21:09

Cause it's like, yeah, why, why are Why not? And

21:11

yeah, I feel like there is, you know, there's something

21:13

about that overall sense of like decadence,

21:16

that made me kind of be like, no, I want

21:19

this romance to be in there, and I want it to be

21:21

very, very smutty?

21:24

I feel like that's not quite the right word.

21:27

Very like hot and heavy. I didn't want it

21:29

to be kind of like a, a deep, Chased romance.

21:31

I wanted to be very clear that these

21:33

people can and will and do fuck

21:36

each other. I wanted to have

21:38

that, not just romantic tension, but

21:40

active, like, sexual tension. Cause

21:42

I feel like that's just something that's really good to have with vampires.

21:45

Vampires are hot. They're sexy.

21:47

Let vampires fuck.

21:48

Exactly, let vampires fuck. Don't give me this PG

21:51

13 vampire crap.

21:52

I think my very first note in

21:54

this book was Thank you for

21:56

not making me wait for smooching.

22:00

Yes, there is smooching very early

22:02

on. I think it's like chapter 2 or chapter 3, there's

22:04

like smooching. It's very early. And

22:06

it's just kind of for funsies. Like, I wanted

22:08

to set a tone relatively early

22:10

on. It's like, making out slash

22:13

sex slash any type of, you know,

22:15

romantic or sexual interest

22:17

is something that can be very casual

22:20

and doesn't have to be like, a slow

22:22

build up to a romantic relationship

22:24

that has been going on for a while. I'm like, no, people

22:26

can just make out because they wanna. And

22:28

it's just, it's just, it fits with a vampire

22:31

book. So yeah, there is Smoot Chain

22:33

really early on. Don't worry, if

22:35

you're here for the Smoot Chain, you will get there

22:37

so fast, I promise.

22:39

So, this isn't necessarily a question,

22:42

but I think it could be an interesting discussion.

22:44

Kazan is an incredibly flawed

22:47

character. For example, like, very

22:49

early on, she leaves a bunch of

22:51

people to die. No regrets, she's like,

22:53

I'm in it for myself, I'm gonna save myself first,

22:56

peace out. But I was still

22:58

able to sympathize with her and enjoy her story,

23:01

and I feel like that's not something

23:03

that I can usually do with a character

23:05

who is so, I'm gonna say quote

23:07

unquote, unlikable. And I feel

23:09

like it might have been because she's so self aware

23:12

about it. Like, she's not lying to herself,

23:14

pretending that she's a good person while she

23:16

leaves these people to die. She's like, no, I know

23:18

that if I was a better person I'd try

23:20

to save them, but I'm in it for me. And

23:23

I thought that was a really, like,

23:25

fine line that you walked very, very well.

23:28

you, yeah. When I was originally coming

23:30

up with Kazan, I wanted to make

23:32

it very quick. clear that this is a person

23:34

who's kind of aware that she lives

23:36

in a world where survival

23:38

is kind of an active struggle. Someone

23:41

who had to like scrape by to survive

23:43

kind of background. And there's kind

23:45

of a practicality to her

23:47

almost, where she's kind of like, okay,

23:50

if I stay and try to help these people,

23:52

I'm probably gonna fucking die. So

23:54

screw that, I'm gonna live. Like she

23:56

does a lot of shitty things, but I wanted it

23:58

to be very clear that you the reader

24:01

Probably would do the same thing in

24:03

her position. You would probably

24:05

also panic and run. That's just

24:07

a very human thing to do. So I

24:09

wanted to kind of lean into the fact that

24:11

she does things that aren't like what a

24:14

good, pure of heart person would

24:16

do, but she does it for very

24:18

human reasons. And for

24:20

reasons that are very clearly a direct

24:23

result of the environment she's in. Like, later

24:25

on in the book, when she's stuck in the Citadel,

24:28

and she's very like, Alright, fuck

24:30

everybody, I'm saving myself, and I'm taking

24:32

everyone down with me. It's very like, oh

24:35

yeah, that is a direct response to the

24:37

fact that everyone is trying

24:39

to kill her. or waiting to kill

24:41

her and no one will help her.

24:44

There's definitely a lot of that kind of, she

24:46

feels like she has to be a lone

24:48

wolf because she's been treated like a

24:50

lone wolf for her whole life. So she's like, all right,

24:52

I have to embrace that. And it was fun

24:54

to write. It's fun to write characters like that.

24:56

I feel like I often find myself

24:59

shouting at a book when there's a character

25:01

who's in some kind of like dead end situation

25:03

and they're struggling against it. Like, there's no way

25:05

for me to survive. It's like, well, you

25:07

could at least sabotage them. And

25:11

I love that she grasped that chance with

25:13

both hands. It felt very human.

25:16

I wanted her to be, you know how there are some characters

25:18

that are like, I will die on any hill?

25:20

I wanted her to be a character that's like, no, I will

25:22

kill on any hill. Like,

25:25

I wanted her to have that kind of vibe. Yeah,

25:28

very, very like, all right, fuck

25:30

you.

25:30

If you're gonna kill me, I'm gonna take you down with me.

25:33

Exactly. Like, gosh, I don't remember

25:35

where this is, but one of the inspirations

25:37

for Kazan's character was actually wild

25:39

boar. It's pretty interesting, so as far as

25:41

I'm aware. Pigs are really interesting

25:44

in that most of the time if you

25:46

take a domesticated animal and put

25:48

it in the wild, it will not be

25:50

able to survive in that original environment because

25:52

domestication has happened. Pigs will kind

25:54

of just go back to being wild

25:56

boar if you like put them in that kind of

25:58

environment. And one of the

26:01

things about boar hunting is you would have

26:03

these specific spears that had to have

26:05

like a cross guard essentially like a pike

26:08

because If you, like, spear a wild

26:10

boar, it will, like, claw its

26:12

way towards you, even if that means, like, pushing

26:14

the spear deeper into itself. And I wanted

26:16

Kazan to have that kind of mentality. Like,

26:19

when you take her out of civilization, she will

26:21

respond accordingly. She will act uncivilized.

26:24

If you try to stab her, she will be

26:26

like, okay, you're trying to stab me. I

26:28

will do anything in my power to, like,

26:30

get you back. And that was kind of

26:33

what I wanted to approach her character with.

26:35

As extreme, I

26:38

don't even think they're that extreme, as excellent

26:40

as her reactions are, maybe I'll use the word

26:42

excellent, they always feel very

26:44

reasoned. I mean, even when she's

26:47

struggling for her life, she's not,

26:50

I mean she panics, that's not a good way to phrase it, but

26:52

Okay, I'll just jump into what I was going to say, which

26:54

is her

26:57

trust in this book is so interesting

26:59

because she is always all

27:02

in, whether it's on distrusting or

27:04

trusting someone in a way that I felt

27:06

was so genuine because

27:09

she was always able to adapt to new information,

27:12

again, in a way that I feel like other stories

27:14

often fuck up pretty hard.

27:16

She acts with the information she has,

27:18

right?

27:19

Yeah, when you have a very reasonable character

27:22

who's like, I don't believe it, even though I

27:24

saw it with my own eyes. It's like, fuck

27:26

you. You

27:28

just saw them do this thing. Come on, get your head

27:30

out of your ass. And Kazan,

27:33

she is in such a wild situation.

27:35

She's been kidnapped by vampires. They're treating

27:37

her like a queen, but like a fake

27:40

figurehead queen. She's constantly having

27:42

to adapt to the changing situation.

27:44

And she is doing that, just

27:47

like rolling with the punches. on

27:49

her feet constantly, like, okay, I

27:51

have now gotten proof that you're trustworthy. All right,

27:53

I'm in. Nope, you crossed me? Okay, hate

27:55

you now. Like, it

27:57

was incredible.

27:59

Yeah, she's, she's definitely kind of a,

28:01

a go big or go home character in

28:04

survival mode. And I, I feel

28:06

like this was partially just the character that I wanted to write,

28:09

and also partly the fact that this is

28:11

a fast paced book, and

28:13

I wanted to make sure I was keeping it On

28:15

the shorter side, it's under 100, 000 words, and

28:17

sometimes you get a lot over that in fantasy.

28:20

So I knew I wanted this fast paced, I wanted it to be

28:22

a little shorter, so I knew that I needed

28:24

to write a character that is not constantly

28:27

having to stop and really think

28:29

about things and, like, second guess

28:32

herself. I wanted a character who was always

28:34

onto the next thing, always doing something,

28:37

always, you know, going in guns blazing

28:39

in whatever she next decides

28:41

to, you know, bounce back and forth between.

28:43

Pragmatic, I think, was a word I was

28:45

Yeah. Yeah, pragmatics. Yeah,

28:47

that's, yeah, that's a good one.

28:49

She is described in the character

28:52

Dramatis Personae, blacksmith and

28:54

liar.

28:55

Yes.

28:56

Delightful, incredible. She

28:58

does lie a lot,

29:00

Yes, she is a very dishonest character.

29:03

and we see a lot of different reactions

29:05

to that throughout the book. People who know

29:07

her, people who care for her, antagonists,

29:10

of course, also. Although most of the antagonists

29:13

don't give her enough credit to even care if she's

29:15

lying, which is very interesting. But

29:17

one of the things that we get towards the end of

29:19

the book is that she's only okay

29:21

with lying if she does it on purpose.

29:25

And I thought that was such an incredible, like, morality

29:28

that just fit her so well and fit the story

29:31

and her actions to a T.

29:33

Yeah, it's, it's like she's aware that she's screwing

29:35

over other people and leaving her to die. She's aware

29:37

of the fact that she's doing shitty things. So

29:39

when she realizes that she has been

29:42

lying and was not aware of doing

29:44

so, and was lying to herself in

29:46

a way that she was not aware of doing so, it's

29:48

sort of like a, a loss of control

29:51

that she didn't realize she was going to lose,

29:53

or didn't realize that she'd already lost. I

29:55

felt like that was a good culmination of her character,

29:58

is to let that trait that she uses

30:00

to survive be something that Eventually

30:03

fails her and kind of, I don't

30:05

want to say betrays her because it's not quite like that,

30:08

but something that fails her in the end.

30:10

And then we get that paired with Adrius,

30:12

which is what I was going to say earlier, about there's

30:15

such an interesting intersection with

30:17

how he lies to the other

30:19

vampires. About himself,

30:22

I guess. He's playing a role to

30:24

accomplish his goals. Versus

30:26

being honest with her in a way that he's

30:29

not able to be with other people. And

30:31

she finds herself being honest with him in

30:33

a way that I think surprises her. I,

30:36

yeah, truth and falsehood

30:38

are such a fascinating, like,

30:41

back and forth in this novel.

30:43

Yeah, with her and Adrius, I kind of

30:45

went with the perspective of like, you can't

30:48

con a con. She kind of subconsciously

30:51

realizes that Adrius is also

30:53

a heckin liar. He's just doing it in a

30:55

very different way. And that's

30:58

never something that I really actively mention

31:00

because it kind of, there's no good point

31:02

to actively mention it. But she kind of picks

31:04

up on the fact that he's very similar

31:06

to her in that way.

31:08

So, we've talked a lot about Kazan,

31:11

and there are some other characters who

31:13

did break my heart, who did deserve

31:15

better. I mean, so did Kazan, but

31:17

like, she gets her own in the end. She

31:19

brings down the Citadel. I wouldn't say it's a happy

31:21

ending, but it's like, you know, she screws everyone

31:24

over in the way that she wants to screw them over. So,

31:26

good for her. She deserved it. But like,

31:28

Isadora deserved better. She,

31:31

she deserved better.

31:32

Isadora did! I

31:34

felt bad.

31:35

She was sweet, and like,

31:37

yeah, she was not doing

31:39

anything to help Kazan, but

31:41

she was nice about it, and

31:43

I was sad when she died.

31:45

I, yeah, that was, for a while

31:48

she wasn't gonna die. And then as I was

31:50

sort of writing up to the finale, I was

31:52

like, I gotta kill her. I gotta.

31:54

Because I needed to, I needed

31:56

to re establish D'Saar

31:58

as an active threat. And as somebody

32:01

who is willing to be completely

32:03

merciless when it is necessary.

32:06

I also wanted Kazan to have that moment

32:08

of like, I could have very easily saved this

32:10

woman's life, and it would have cost me absolutely

32:12

nothing, and I chose not to. Because

32:15

I felt like that was kind of important as well.

32:17

Part of her sort of realization that she's

32:19

becoming kind of a worse person

32:21

in response to what's happening to

32:23

her. Yeah, I I also felt

32:25

bad killing Isadora, but I had to do it. I

32:28

had to do it to her.

32:30

But at least Kazan had that moment

32:32

of reflection. I think that really helped me as

32:34

the reader a lot because it was like she acknowledged

32:37

how much that sucked and owned her decision.

32:40

It was like, yeah, I did. That was my fault. But you

32:42

know?

32:42

Well, I mean, I think that goes back to our

32:44

earlier discussion about Kazan not

32:47

actually necessarily being a great person,

32:49

but still being someone

32:51

that we can enjoy reading about. Because she does

32:53

acknowledge her flaws, and it is in

32:55

reaction to her environment. I

32:57

was also sad about Travers. He

33:00

also deserved better. Like,

33:02

yeah, that scene made me sad too.

33:04

He was just doing his job and had

33:06

a very bad time. Yeah, poor guy.

33:09

Yeah, it was not a good day for him.

33:11

Honestly, up until, like, I think

33:13

the, like, the final draft or the second

33:15

to last draft, that did not happen

33:17

to him. It was, like, a completely random

33:20

human who had to do that, like, mock duel.

33:22

And then I don't remember if it was my agent, my

33:24

editor, or something that, like, occurred

33:26

to me, someone suggested it. Just having it

33:28

be a random person doesn't hit. It's just like, well,

33:30

that's just some random guy. And I was like, oh,

33:32

I couldn't make it so that Travers got

33:35

captured as well, just differently. And,

33:37

uh, is now still not getting out of

33:39

it. Poor guy. Okay.

33:40

Something about him having agency

33:43

in that moment. I mean, he didn't really. He

33:45

was in a rigged fight. There was no way he could

33:47

win. But at least he died, like,

33:49

Trying?

33:50

I mean, I feel like he knew the risks

33:53

when he became a warden. So he,

33:55

he did, I mean, Isadora

33:57

didn't necessarily have any say in

34:00

being assigned to be Kazin's,

34:02

like, lady in waiting, but Travers,

34:05

he picked this job. Presumably,

34:08

he could have gotten another job doing

34:10

something else that was less dangerous.

34:12

I feel like he at least did it. knew that there

34:14

is the possibility of gruesome death in

34:16

his future.

34:17

True. Whereas Isadora just, the

34:19

power dynamic is so different, which

34:21

is fascinating to have a vampire character

34:24

be the one with the like, least power.

34:26

Yeah, I really wanted to, it's,

34:28

it's a little more subtle. I'm very, uh,

34:31

I don't like capitalism. So

34:33

I wanted to make it clear that there was a lot of class

34:35

differences between all the characters.

34:38

So, like, Isadora, she has

34:40

no real status. Like,

34:42

historically, in the real world, ladies in

34:44

waiting were still ladies, they would

34:47

still be upper class, but they would still be kind

34:49

of servants, depending on, you

34:51

know, what you're looking at. So I wanted to make it clear that

34:53

even amongst the vampires that have that. Like,

34:56

they're rich, they're aristocratic, they're

34:58

like so fancy and elegant. I wanted to make it very

35:00

clear that even with them, there are the lower class.

35:03

Because I really wanted to keep some kind of class

35:05

stratification among them. With Travers, I

35:07

gotta say, I love both writing

35:09

and reading Doomed Last Stands.

35:12

I love it. I love it when a character's like, I'm

35:14

gonna die, but I can choose to go out with

35:16

dignity. I love it. I love it so

35:18

much. I'm a sucker for it every time I read it

35:20

or watch it. I'm a sucker for it when I write it.

35:23

10 out of 10. Writers, write more

35:25

of these, I'm begging you, I love them so much.

35:28

That's my PSA of the day, sorry.

35:31

Yeah. Oh, I feel like we all have

35:33

that, that thing that just like hits you right

35:35

every time.

35:36

It's just so good, every time.

35:38

One thing that I really

35:41

enjoyed about this book is

35:43

that the book kind of asks, it doesn't come out and ask,

35:46

but it sort of implies the question, what

35:49

is the value of a human life? And

35:51

Kazan kind of twists that

35:53

and counters with, I don't

35:55

give a fuck, but let me tell you the value

35:57

of human dignity. And

35:59

I don't know if she quite gets there at the end.

36:02

Because she really struggles with her decision

36:04

to, I mean, in sabotaging the vampires,

36:07

she probably does kill a lot of people who don't deserve

36:09

it. But by ending

36:11

this tradition of

36:14

humiliating a human before they have

36:16

a horrible death, Every year. She's

36:18

really reclaiming dignity in a way. I don't know. It's

36:20

so much less sad to die in a collapsing

36:23

building than it is to die humiliated.

36:25

And I get that. I agree with her. She made the

36:27

right decision. If she's still wondering, Ciel,

36:30

would you let her know? She made

36:32

the right decision.

36:33

There's a line, I think, at the end

36:35

when she does her little, like, fuck you speech.

36:38

I think it's, if you treat me inhumanely,

36:41

then I will act inhumanely.

36:43

Like, if you strip me of humanity and

36:45

dignity. Then I will claw

36:47

that back. I will do shitty things

36:49

if you treat me this way. And

36:51

yeah, I, again, it's just kind of a,

36:54

it's not quite a Doomblast stand, but it's

36:56

definitely that sense of like, you know, there are aspects

36:58

of my humanity that you will not take

37:00

from me, that I will not let you take from me. And

37:02

that was fun to write.

37:03

Yeah, it makes the final battle between

37:05

her and Dasar. Did

37:08

I get that? Dasar, right? so

37:10

fascinating because she's already

37:12

ruined their ritual. The citadel is crumbling

37:15

around them. In a sense, she's already

37:18

won, but

37:20

she is now facing a fight

37:22

that she is far outclassed by.

37:25

And so it's just like a fascinating obviously she

37:27

still wants to live, but

37:30

as the reader there was still that triumphant like, Ah,

37:32

but you fucking did it already. Hell

37:34

yeah.

37:35

Yeah, I, I knew that I,

37:37

I really wanted to have the two

37:39

of them have that like dramatic final

37:41

fight as the building's like falling apart

37:44

and as there's kind of no stakes other

37:46

than the two of them needing

37:48

to kill one of each other. Kazen needs

37:51

to kill him and he needs to kill her

37:53

at the end. And yeah, I mean,

37:55

it's fun to write, and it was definitely one of those things

37:58

where you know Kazan's super outclassed,

38:00

but you also know that she has

38:02

the advantage of thriving

38:05

in these kinds of environments, and Dasar

38:07

does not. Which is what enables her

38:09

to win, by virtue of just the power

38:11

of being pissed off.

38:13

So, you know, sometimes we just need a little

38:15

anger to, to get us through.

38:17

One of the things that, you know, I really wanted to write

38:19

with Kazan is, I hate it when female

38:22

characters are punished for being angry. And

38:24

I wanted to make it that time and time again,

38:26

Kazan's Anger is correct

38:29

and rewards her. Because I love

38:31

angry female characters, like, for God's sake,

38:33

stop making female characters have to, like, regret

38:35

their anger and, like, become nicer. I'm like,

38:37

no, let them be bitches. Let them be angry

38:39

bitches. Come on.

38:41

Let women be mad.

38:43

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

38:46

We read a collection of Audre Lorde

38:48

recently, and I feel like she talks about

38:50

that quite a bit in a very different

38:52

context. But

38:55

still, that idea that, like, sometimes anger

38:57

is justified, and you

38:59

don't have to be, like, calm

39:02

and articulate to be correct.

39:04

Yeah,

39:05

sometimes anger helps you.

39:07

yeah, definitely true.

39:09

you talk a little bit about some of the

39:11

things that were different from the

39:13

version that you originally wrote with the

39:15

version that's been published, like

39:17

Travers being the one who dies in the mock duel.

39:20

How different is the final product

39:22

from the first draft?

39:23

Extremely. So I actually

39:25

wrote the first draft back in 2018.

39:28

This was before my first book, Bluebird, came

39:30

out. Which, you should also read, dear listener.

39:33

You should, and then you can listen to us interview Ciel

39:35

about Bluebird.

39:37

Yeah, so I actually wrote the very first version of this

39:39

book in 2018. And

39:41

it was vastly different. The characters

39:43

were totally different from who they are now. The

39:46

plot was very different as well.

39:48

The general conceit was the same. Some of

39:50

the beats were the same. But it was really different.

39:52

It was also much more of a political drama

39:54

almost, which I really wanted to steer

39:56

away from in the final version. And then

39:58

in 2021 I

40:02

think after I'd sold Bluebird,

40:05

my agent was like, Hey, remember that vampire

40:07

thing you wrote but then like wasn't gonna sell because

40:09

nobody was buying vampire books? And I was like, Yes, I do remember

40:11

the vampire book because I loved it. And she was

40:13

like, Why don't you just like rewrite that? Because

40:16

you know, vampires are kind of coming back. They're like more

40:18

sellable now. So I went through a number of

40:20

drafts of kind of just like completely tearing

40:22

the book apart. Stripping it down to what

40:24

I wanted to keep, what I wanted to get rid of. So

40:26

the characters kind of got rebuilt from the ground up.

40:28

Most of the plot kind of got rebuilt from the

40:30

ground up. It was mostly just, the basic

40:33

sort of, uh, aesthetics were

40:35

the same. The basic premise was the same.

40:37

And some of the main characters, Were,

40:40

like, Kazan was still the main character, Adrius

40:42

and Rhea were still there. Although I think Adrius had a different

40:45

name, something beginning with R, I don't remember.

40:47

I don't remember because it was so

40:49

fucking long ago. But it got completely

40:52

reworked, like, from the ground up. Not

40:54

even slightly the same.

40:55

Were there any scenes that surprised you in

40:58

the rewrite?

40:59

Yes, there's a scene

41:01

after Kazan wakes

41:03

up after she's been turned into a vampire

41:05

where she kind of climbs out the window

41:07

and like hides under this statue.

41:10

I was surprised by that scene

41:12

because I didn't realize it was

41:14

a moment she needed. And it's kind

41:16

of a moment where she sort

41:18

of realizes that she has lost

41:21

Alphonse as well, who is also a

41:23

character, dear readers, that's a spoiler.

41:25

And we haven't talked about Alphonse, but

41:28

his story too.

41:30

Yeah, I wanted to keep

41:32

Alphonse around, but

41:34

there's kind of no way to do

41:36

so in a way that would make

41:39

sense. He can't stay around

41:41

in Kazan's body because that would

41:43

kill her, and if he just goes back to

41:45

being a geist that hangs around an old

41:48

painting, that's just kind of pointless for

41:50

him. And in the end

41:52

of the day, his presence in

41:54

the novel is to facilitate

41:57

Kazan's escape and

41:59

Adreus's character arc. So

42:01

he kind of fulfills both those

42:03

purposes before he dies. So

42:06

it kind of becomes clear in that final confrontation

42:09

between Kazan being possessed by

42:11

Alphonse and Adreus that what happened to Alphonse

42:13

was a complete accident. And as much

42:15

as he personally wants revenge for it, it's

42:18

sort of, it's kind of misguided

42:20

revenge. It's sort of

42:22

something that has stayed

42:24

with him for So vehemently,

42:27

because he's kind of frozen in time.

42:29

Adrius has found a way to sort of

42:31

move on, even though he does have,

42:34

like, he does kind of punish himself for

42:36

it. There's ways in which he punishes himself for

42:38

it. But he's kind of been like, no, no, no, I've had

42:40

decades to accept that it was

42:42

an accident, and to accept that I needed to

42:44

move on, and this is like the final, Aspect

42:47

of properly moving on. And

42:49

so with Alphonse, there's kind of a sense of like, he's

42:52

not capable of getting

42:54

past it. He's not capable of moving

42:56

on. And so his anger there

42:59

isn't something that could

43:01

continue in the narrative, but it's also

43:03

not something that he'd be able to get rid of.

43:06

And also he was dead already, I mean, come on.

43:09

I love the way that

43:11

you made Geists. This

43:13

was something I wanted to talk about when we were talking

43:15

about vampire lore in this book,

43:18

but I was like, no, this is definitely a spoiler. But

43:21

the idea that they are, they're vampire

43:24

victims that didn't get turned into

43:26

a vampire, basically, and so they sort of haunt

43:28

an object or a place.

43:30

Yeah, so, again, this is kind of

43:32

a holdover from the very first iteration of the book. In

43:34

the very first iteration of the book, there was a lot

43:37

more classic monsters. There was, like,

43:39

werewolves, there were, like, ghouls

43:41

and zombies. It was kind of just like

43:43

a whole host of classic monsters,

43:46

including ghosts. But, uh, They

43:48

ended up just getting kind of trimmed away in

43:51

the later rewrite just because they

43:53

didn't really serve a narrative purpose, and

43:55

it felt more fitting to have geists and

43:57

vampires that paralleled each other

43:59

and kind of played off the same sort of established

44:02

in universe plot. rules,

44:04

I guess. Like, I think it's easier to write kind of

44:06

the rules of the fantasy world when you have

44:09

two sides of the same coin rather

44:11

than just like a bunch of different shit going on.

44:13

Especially for a shorter novel that,

44:16

you know, is so set in just

44:18

one location, you know. There's not a lot

44:20

of traveling around. There's not a lot of them going to other

44:22

places. So yeah, Geist

44:24

were kind of a holdover from that first version, but I knew

44:26

that I really needed to keep them and I knew that I wanted

44:28

to keep Alphonse because he's just

44:31

He's so central, he's important, he

44:33

needs to be there, dammit.

44:34

Loved

44:35

Yeah, I mean, I loved Alphonse too. I was sad to

44:37

see him die, although I agree that he did

44:39

need to. But I loved that

44:41

vampires can't see geists. And

44:44

the way that that plays out when

44:46

Kazen is back in her hometown,

44:49

and how it helps her realize

44:52

that she's changed and

44:54

she can't go back to the way she was.

44:56

Like, that was Chef's Kiss. Excellent.

44:59

you, that, yeah, that was, that was fun to write. That

45:01

was a, that was a nice little scene that I got to write there.

45:03

Yeah, I, I wanted it to, again,

45:06

it's kind of like, there are anti capitalist

45:08

themes in much of what I write. It's the,

45:10

sort of, the people doing the oppressing

45:13

do not or cannot see their victims.

45:16

That was something that I wanted to sort of

45:18

include is like the vampires create Geist,

45:20

but they can't see it, you know, to them, they've just

45:23

killed somebody and they're gone. But with Geist,

45:25

it's like, no, there was a real

45:27

person that suffered as a result of your actions,

45:30

and they are still suffering as a result of your actions,

45:32

and they don't go away. You just are

45:34

blind to it. So yeah, that was

45:36

something I found fun to write. And also logistically,

45:38

it worked really well. You know, you find

45:40

out later it's a haunted mansion, essentially.

45:44

you know, none of the vampires that live there know it's haunted.

45:46

We get a little bit of a hint about

45:49

saints who are good

45:51

geists, and that's kind of the only

45:53

taste of an organized religion

45:55

that we see in this book. And I really

45:57

hope that you get the rest of this trilogy

46:00

deal, because I feel like we're gonna see some more

46:02

saints coming

46:03

I, I need this to happen.

46:06

I do too because the human religion

46:09

and like the wardens and like the human societal

46:11

structure in the two sequels that

46:13

are in my head, they play a huge

46:15

part and like the Geist world building

46:18

does as well and how it relates to saints.

46:20

I need it.

46:21

I want to write it so bad. Anyway,

46:24

please buy my book so I can write a sequel

46:27

and then a trilogy. Please.

46:29

Everyone go buy Hunter's Gambit so I can read

46:31

book two, please.

46:32

Yes.

46:33

I like, never read my own reviews,

46:36

or, I never really read reviews of my books.

46:38

I only read a couple, but one of the few ones,

46:40

like, you know, if, like, my editor sends me a review,

46:42

or, like, if it's somebody that I'm gonna do an interview with or something,

46:45

I'll read it. And one of the reviews I read

46:47

was, like, man, I really wish there was, like, a

46:49

little more focus on the world building,

46:51

and I'm like, I'm saving it for books

46:53

two and three! Please!

46:57

I, I mean, I, like, I want to see more

46:59

of the world building, but I also didn't feel that this book needed

47:01

more of the world building. I loved

47:03

that it was a standalone, but

47:05

that there is potential for books

47:08

two and three, and I, man, I

47:10

want books two and three. Like,

47:12

yeah.

47:13

I was honestly shocked to hear that you

47:15

had this planned as a trilogy, which I mean as

47:17

a compliment to say that this book feels

47:19

so just like satisfying.

47:22

Open ended, but still satisfying

47:24

in an ending. And like the world is much

47:27

bigger and I'm very excited to read more,

47:29

but I don't actually feel like, I don't

47:31

know, I hate cliffhangers. They feel

47:33

cheap to

47:34

Yeah,

47:36

And you didn't do that.

47:37

I didn't want to make this a cliffhanger. Oftentimes,

47:39

if you're not a well established author

47:42

or you're pitching a series

47:44

that could be more like financially volatile

47:47

or not that likely to work, a really good

47:49

strategy is to have the first novel

47:51

be a standalone that has like potential

47:54

for a series. So that was what I tried to

47:56

do. I tried to make sure that everything was kind of

47:58

wrapped up, but there is kind of like a

48:00

cliffhanger. Well, something's clearly going to happen

48:02

next, right? But you're not like, Hold

48:04

on, that never got resolved. What

48:07

happened there? I didn't want that.

48:09

So I wanted to make it where, you know, if I don't get

48:11

to write the trilogy of my dreams,

48:14

it still is a satisfying ending and you

48:16

still feel like you've read a complete story.

48:19

So, Ciel, what would you like readers to take

48:21

away from this book?

48:23

Honest, I feel like I say this with every

48:25

book I write, I want readers to have a good

48:27

time reading it. You know, I want it to be kind

48:29

of something where if you like vampires

48:32

and you like the more monstrous eroticism

48:34

of vampires, I want you to take

48:37

away from this book, like, yeah, that was a great

48:39

indulgence. That was something that felt like.

48:42

you know, what I, what I wanted from

48:44

a decadent vampire book. And

48:47

I, yeah, I, I feel like I, I never like

48:49

to say that, oh, I really want people

48:51

to take away the important themes that I, like,

48:53

lay in this book. Because I don't think any of my books

48:55

really do that in, uh, quite a

48:57

serious way. Yeah, I want readers to have

48:59

a good time. I want you to have a good time reading

49:01

it. And I want readers to feel

49:03

like they got to experience

49:06

a indulgent part of vampire

49:08

lore. I want them to feel like they got what

49:10

Twilight didn't give them.

49:13

Fantastic.

49:13

I'm still mad about that.

49:17

so.

49:17

I was in middle school when the Twilight books

49:19

came out. Random kids, like, you'd

49:21

line up for the bus, and random kids

49:23

you'd never spoke to before would be like, or you'd team,

49:26

like, Edward or team Jacob, and I'd be like,

49:28

I don't care, I, who, who, who

49:30

are you? Why are you asking me this?

49:32

And you, you read them, and you're like, damn.

49:34

I love the inherent monstrous eroticism

49:37

of vampires. Why did Stephanie Meyer decide to

49:39

ruin that? Because she just wanted to write Mormon

49:41

superheroes. Yeah, I said

49:43

it.

49:43

But, you know, as with Kazan,

49:46

your anger has served you very well.

49:48

Yes.

49:50

This was a spite book. Nah,

49:52

I'm kidding. It wasn't a spite book.

49:54

This was a book from the heart. But it was definitely

49:56

like, I have not gotten this in media in

49:58

so long. By God, I'm gonna make it.

50:00

I do feel like, in the same way that fashion

50:03

is cyclical, and polarized genes

50:05

are back in fashion,

50:06

Which they shouldn't be. Just saying it now,

50:09

that's the downside, but the upside

50:11

is they're also getting monstrous vampires

50:13

back.

50:14

yes. Which I am so glad to

50:16

see. I'm so glad we're getting that back. I'm so glad

50:18

that like, the wheel has turned, the cycle

50:20

has moved on. If you're writing vampires, you

50:22

don't have to write like, contemporary paranormal

50:25

romance vampires. I'm so glad we can write like,

50:27

nitty gritty vampires, gory

50:29

vampires.

50:30

Bad guys. Are vampires

50:33

considered monsterfucking? I

50:35

don't know if we have an answer.

50:37

I've thought about this. I've been asked this by

50:39

friends. I've thought about this a lot. So,

50:41

I think that there's a scale of monster fucking.

50:44

I feel like on one end you have, like,

50:46

Cthulhu, basically. Like, you're fucking

50:48

something that is completely, entirely monstrous.

50:50

And I feel like vampires are closer to the

50:52

human end. But, I Wanted

50:55

to make it clear that there were monstrous

50:58

traits and monster fucking like the fact

51:00

that vampires are cold to the touch like

51:02

you're Still fucking somebody who's not fully alive

51:04

and the same way humans are alive, you know

51:06

You're still fucking somebody who's got like fangs and claws

51:09

and shit So yeah, I think vampires

51:11

do count as monster fucking because they are monsters

51:13

But I think they're closer to like the the

51:15

normie end of monster fucking

51:18

They're a good intro before you move on

51:20

to, like, deeper monsterfucking, as

51:22

it were.

51:22

They're the gateway drug to

51:24

Yeah, they're they're a gateway drug to monsterfucking.

51:26

Like werewolves in human form, they're

51:28

like a gateway to monsterfucking.

51:30

Yeah, werewolf in werewolf form though,

51:32

that's monsterfucking.

51:34

Yeah, that's monsterfucking, for sure.

51:36

I'm pretty sure that is where we landed

51:38

in our monster fucking episode. Do vampires

51:40

count as necrophilia?

51:42

Depends. I personally

51:44

would say no, because even

51:46

though they're, like, quote unquote dead and

51:49

not considered alive in the way that humans

51:51

are, they are, for all intents and purposes,

51:53

thinking rationally, fully.

51:56

Cognitively there in the same way a person

51:58

is, you know, they can do all the same stuff a person

52:01

is, they're not like, you know, zombies or anything.

52:03

Yeah, they're just, I would say it

52:05

does not count as necrophilia. I

52:07

don't think it counts.

52:09

Vampires can consent. I think that changes

52:11

the equation.

52:12

exactly, they can consent, and

52:14

they should and do, because vampires are

52:16

slutty. That, you heard it here first,

52:18

folks. Not saying you can't

52:21

have not slutty vampires, but also,

52:23

like, come on, vampires are great at being slutty. It's

52:25

like their whole thing. It's like them not

52:27

being heterosexual.

52:28

There's also an element of danger with

52:31

vampires, with good vampires,

52:33

Yes.

52:34

that I think pushes them onto the monster

52:37

fucking scale.

52:38

Yeah, it's like, you never know if the monster's gonna hurt

52:40

I think you mean vampires done well.

52:42

Yes, vampires done

52:43

Not necessarily good vampires. I

52:45

do think there's a difference.

52:47

There's the sense that you could come out of it with a few injuries,

52:49

you know. A sign of good monster fucking.

52:52

Legends and lattes? Wait, that's a

52:54

tiefling and an orc. That ain't monster

52:56

fucking?

52:56

That's not monster fucking, I'm so sorry, that's not

52:58

monster

52:59

There's no danger. You could write

53:01

a version of that that is. But

53:03

I think that's like a really good example of, it

53:05

doesn't really matter what you're fucking. It matters

53:08

if it can kill you.

53:08

Yeah, it's the monstrous nature,

53:11

as opposed to like, physical

53:13

characteristics being like a

53:16

set scale, y'know.

53:17

no, you're green with big teeth.

53:20

Can you kill me though? Like, is this gonna be really

53:23

violent? Am I gonna feel in danger

53:25

at any point? No? Okay, then it's like not monsterfucking.

53:27

S

53:32

Thank you so much for joining us. I do

53:34

have one tiny quibble.

53:36

Not with you, not with this book, but

53:38

with myself and my own vocabulary.

53:41

Which is that I don't know how to pronounce

53:43

Seneschal.

53:45

Seneschal?

53:47

Is that how it is? Is that the word?

53:49

Yeah, Seneschal's a real word. It

53:51

is a real English word.

53:53

it's totally a real word. No, I

53:55

just have no idea. Seneschal.

53:58

Okay. The characters in this book, I

54:00

loved the hierarchy you built. It's

54:02

very cool how we have like, you know, the heads

54:04

of houses and they have their seneschals.

54:08

correct.

54:09

And it's a word I've definitely read before.

54:12

I rolled with it, it didn't take me out of the story,

54:14

and then I was writing the notes down, and I was

54:16

like, oh no, this is

54:18

a podcast and I have to say this out loud.

54:22

Yeah, it is a, it is a real English

54:24

word. I wanted to pick

54:26

a more formal sounding word for like

54:28

second, basically. And I also didn't

54:30

want to write out second in command a bunch

54:33

of times because it doesn't really seem like that great

54:35

a title. And again, a lot of this is about like hierarchy

54:37

and, you know, titles and all that type of stuff.

54:39

So Seneschal it was.

54:41

Seneschal is an excellent word, but yeah, like

54:43

Lily, it's one of those that I've seen written

54:46

down and never bothered to learn

54:48

actually how to pronounce. Until now.

54:50

We've all had those words. Yeah.

54:53

Cielo, thank you so much for coming on to

54:55

the podcast to talk about The Hunter's Gambit. We

54:57

loved it. We needs book two and three.

54:59

Angry Robot, please give us more. But

55:02

can you tell us a little bit about any current projects

55:04

that you might be working on?

55:05

Yes, so I am currently working on

55:07

something. It has not been announced yet,

55:10

so I will be extremely vague. It

55:12

is going to be sci fi.

55:15

That is vague. All right.

55:17

it's gonna be sci fi and

55:19

it's going to be I, gosh, I think

55:21

I put this in like one of my pitch letters or something.

55:24

If you were one of those people like

55:26

me where you watched Phantom of the Opera

55:28

and thought Christine should have chosen the Phantom,

55:31

this might be a book for you where you have

55:33

your villain slash love interest.

55:36

Wait for the announcement!

55:38

love me a good villain slash love

55:41

interest, so I am excited. I

55:43

need this in my life almost as much as I need

55:45

book two and three of Hunter's Gambit.

55:48

And Ciel, where can our listeners follow

55:50

you to get news about when

55:52

this might be announced?

55:54

I am on Twitter at

55:56

C. L. Pirlo. I am on Instagram.

55:58

CL Purelow. I

56:00

don't post updates as often as I would like to, but

56:02

I do keep an active portfolio of what

56:05

I currently have on my website, which

56:07

is clpurelow. com. That's

56:09

the good thing about having a really weird, unique

56:11

name, is you can just take it as every

56:13

username. All my socials are under

56:15

my name. It's so convenient.

56:17

That's branding.

56:18

Yes.

56:19

Oh, yeah.

56:20

Thank you so much for joining us. We had an absolute

56:23

blast talking to you and

56:25

I can't wait to read what you have next.

56:27

Thank you. Yeah, I had a great time.

56:29

And, uh, wait for my

56:31

next book, I guess. Buy Hunter's

56:33

Gambit.

56:34

all your books.

56:35

Yes, buy all my books.

56:41

you so much for listening to this episode

56:43

of Fiction Fans.

56:45

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter,

56:47

Blue Sky, Instagram, and

56:49

TikTok at FictionFansPod. You

56:52

can also email us at FictionFansPod

56:54

at gmail. com.

56:56

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate

56:58

and review on Spotify and Apple

57:00

Podcasts and follow us wherever

57:02

your podcasts live.

57:04

We also have a Patreon where you can

57:06

support us and find exclusive episodes

57:09

and a lot of other nonsense.

57:10

Thanks again for listening and may your

57:13

villains always be defeated.

57:15

Bye!