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What

1:02

kind of a

1:02

show you guys putting on here today. You're not

1:04

interested in them? No. Look, we're going

1:06

to do this thing. We're going have a conversation.

1:10

From

1:11

Chicago, this is Filmspotting, I'm Adam

1:13

Kempenar. Josh and I are taking

1:15

this week to prep for next week's

1:17

top ten round table shows We've

1:19

got the Chicago tribune's Michael Phillips.

1:21

He's back as usual. Joining

1:24

us for that along with the now Chicago

1:26

based critic, Moriah e Gates, really

1:28

excited to have Mariah join us

1:30

for the first time for these end of year

1:32

shows. Josh and I did get to

1:35

a screening of Avatar the way of water,

1:37

and we couldn't wait

1:39

to share that conversation with you.

1:42

Josh was a big Avatar defender back

1:44

in two thousand nine. Me,

1:46

not so much. You'll have to listen to c if

1:48

either of us had a change of heart when it

1:50

comes to the sequel. We also wanted to take time

1:52

to thank everyone for another year of

1:54

listening to the show. Twenty twenty three

1:56

will be year eighteen for film

1:58

spotting. We're gonna kick off that year

2:01

with a live show in New York City.

2:03

If you are in New York City or in the area,

2:06

we would love to have you join us More

2:08

information about that January fourteenth

2:11

wrap party as we like to call it is

2:13

available at film spotting dot net

2:15

slash events. Film spotting dot

2:17

net slash events will be at the Bell

2:19

House in Brooklyn. This year,

2:21

we also started a new membership plot

2:23

form that we're really proud of, not on Patreon,

2:26

but on supporting cast. Members

2:28

get access to a monthly bonus

2:30

show. Event presales and discounts

2:33

and other exclusive opportunities. The

2:35

new platform also made it possible for us to

2:37

make the entire show archive available

2:39

in one place For the first

2:41

time ever, yes, you can get what amounts

2:44

to actually over eleven hundred

2:46

episodes when you throw in all

2:48

the little bonuses and fixes.

2:51

Access to that is one of

2:53

the perks of membership. You could,

2:55

for example, go back to two thousand nine

2:57

and hear our review of

2:59

the original Avatar. Because

3:02

it is year end and we're a listener supported

3:04

show, we did also wanna let you know with

3:06

the holidays fast approaching the

3:08

gift memberships are available. If you're a

3:10

current member and you wanna give the gift of membership

3:13

to a friend or someone in your family,

3:16

or you're not currently a member and

3:18

you want to give that gift to membership. Just

3:20

go to Filmspotting dot com.

3:22

That's Filmspotting dot com.

3:24

You'll see a tab for gifts

3:27

right at the top of the page. You can pick whatever

3:29

membership tier you'd like.

3:32

Pay for it, have it delivered to

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3:43

me, Josh, producer Sam,

3:46

for a quarterly board meeting

3:48

where actual show decisions

3:51

get made, you get to weigh in on future marathons,

3:53

you get an early look at our film spotting

3:55

madness list and get to help shape

3:58

those lineups and so much more.

4:00

If you do have a film spotting or just

4:02

a film fan in your life

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that you are looking to get a gift

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for maybe you're raising or

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Again, thanks so much to everyone for

5:38

listening to this year. Couple

5:40

of big great episodes in

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store for you looking back on

5:44

the year that was in Cinema.

5:47

And we wish you and your families the best the

5:49

holidays in the New Year. And now,

5:51

Avatar, the way of water.

5:53

Treat them as our brothers and

5:55

sisters

5:58

Teach them always.

5:59

Keep up the forest

6:02

boy. If you want

6:04

to live here? You

6:06

have to ride. Let's

6:08

do it.

6:15

Just breathe. Breathe.

6:22

Which should definitely call qualify as

6:25

a still processing review,

6:27

Avatar, the way

6:29

of water, the follow-up to two thousand

6:31

nines, avatar from director James

6:33

Cameron. We are at this point, Josh,

6:36

about eighteen hours. If my

6:38

math is right, eighteen hours removed from

6:41

our viewing of the film, maybe even a little bit

6:43

less than that. I'm guessing unless

6:45

you were a really busy boy

6:48

this morning or had insomnia, and

6:50

stayed up, frantically typing, you

6:52

have not constructed your written

6:55

review of this film. And I certainly

6:57

just have a bunch of random notes

6:59

and observations that came to me that

7:01

I was voice transcribing as I was

7:03

driving home from the theater. Okay. So you

7:05

weren't yeah. I didn't notice you doing a lot

7:07

of scribbling during. Maybe the three

7:09

d makes that hard, maybe those glass Didn't even

7:11

bring a pen. How did you

7:13

do with the three d glasses in your scribbling?

7:16

Well, It's just more interesting

7:18

to me than the movie. Uh-huh. Yeah. Here we go.

7:20

It's about the same result,

7:23

I would say. Although -- Okay. I have

7:25

not put on a pair of three d glasses to read

7:28

my notes. I was just gonna say, baby try

7:30

that. That would be amazing if I should

7:32

try that just normally because usually my notes

7:34

are -- Yeah. -- unintelligible anyway. You could only

7:36

read them clearly if you have the glasses

7:38

on. Why not? I'm

7:41

guessing a lot of listeners, at least longtime

7:43

listeners, are probably little bit more curious

7:46

to hear what I think of avatar the way

7:48

of water because they may recall that back in

7:50

two thousand nine, I was

7:52

not a fan. In fact, I was quite a detractor

7:55

of the original Avatar as was my

7:57

then co host, Maddie Robinson. So

7:59

people might wanna hear whether or not

8:01

I've come to the light. I've

8:03

had a reversal in

8:06

terms of my feelings about James Cameron

8:08

and this world of Pandora. But

8:11

I can't wait to hear what you thought

8:13

of it, Josh. Because as someone who has admitted

8:16

over the years, you didn't get to talk about it in

8:18

detail on the show, but you've admitted that you

8:20

were a big fan, and I know you rewatched

8:23

the original Avatar. To get

8:25

ready for Avatar the way of water,

8:28

I'm dying to know if if Cameron

8:30

has managed to top the

8:32

original in your estimation. Are

8:35

you going to continue to be

8:37

an avatar acolyte or

8:40

are you going to join me on the dark side? Are

8:42

you now a naysayer of the Navi?

8:47

Was that a character I missed? The naysayer

8:50

of the Navi, possibly. Yeah.

8:53

Was a fan of Avatar?

8:55

am a fan of Avatar after that

8:58

recent revisit. There are issues.

9:00

Obviously, we could discuss but

9:02

still think it's a singular movie

9:05

achievement. Avatar the way

9:07

of water. I apologize in advance,

9:09

Adam. I know You probably worry

9:11

this is gonna be Smurch, this

9:13

reputation, rest assured

9:16

only I, not you. Should

9:18

lose any cenifile cred for this. But, yes,

9:20

I'm recommending Avatar the

9:23

way of water. And here's why. thought you were

9:25

going a different direction with that

9:27

setup. You pull the switcheroo on us.

9:29

I switched you. Alright. This is

9:31

what I want my cinema ecosystem

9:33

to be. I want it to be similar to the

9:35

teeming planet of Pandora,

9:38

full of all types of life forms.

9:40

Of course, I want something acudite

9:42

like tire. Yes. We

9:45

all want to need tire.

9:47

I want something smart and political and

9:49

fun like glass onion. I want

9:52

something unassuming but emotional like

9:54

after sun, but I also want

9:56

big,

9:57

weird, blockbuster

9:58

extravaganza's

9:59

like Avatar the way of water, especially

10:02

when they're as imaginedally envisioned.

10:05

Like this. That's what I was

10:07

hoping for. Again,

10:10

there are issues with the first film. They're probably

10:12

magnified Here, I would say,

10:14

this is a far lesser film. If

10:16

the original I don't know if it made it on my top

10:18

time list of that year, but it was definitely in consideration.

10:22

This

10:22

is nowhere near that. Way of water is nowhere

10:24

near that. But what Avatar did

10:27

so well, I think this movie does

10:29

well in interestingly new ways.

10:31

So it's not for everybody. But

10:33

if you are a sucker for world building, I

10:35

would say if you're curious about the state of special

10:38

effects technology and how it can be used

10:40

really well. Even if you're just conflicted

10:43

about the work of James Cameron, let alone fan

10:45

of some of his other stuff, even if you're always intrigued

10:47

or provoked by it, You've gotta see this.

10:50

And if if those categories

10:53

strike you as familiar, I think you'll probably enjoy

10:55

it as well. You've gotta

10:57

see this. That pretty much sums

10:59

it up. It's just a cudgel to beat

11:01

us all down. You gotta go.

11:03

It's James Cameron. He spent thirteen years

11:05

making it. Spent untold hundreds

11:08

of millions of dollars. There's gonna be two more.

11:11

You can't avoid it. I think aren't there three

11:13

I don't know. I think there might be three more probably.

11:16

It doesn't matter. I'm

11:17

not going back for round three. Your

11:19

original avatar yeah. The original

11:21

avatar I just

11:23

looked it up again. Eighty two percent

11:25

positive reviews on rotten tomatoes. So

11:28

despite whatever is in

11:30

the zeitgeist As we look back

11:32

on Avatar, there's a lot of haters

11:34

out there. The majority of critics overwhelmingly

11:37

liked the movie to some degree. And

11:40

I'm surprised to hear what you said,

11:42

Josh, only because it was unavoidable

11:45

as we saw this on Tuesday

11:48

night. December sixth, some

11:50

New York critics, maybe some LA critics

11:53

too, had all gotten to see it just earlier

11:55

in the day. So on Twitter, if you were on it at

11:57

all, all these responses were breaking

11:59

at the time we were walking into the theater and then

12:01

some more after that. And with

12:04

few exceptions, it was

12:07

not only high, high praise,

12:09

but it was people saying,

12:12

no, he did it. He improved

12:14

on the original. Now, really,

12:16

like I feel like this was coming from at least

12:18

a few people I saw. David Erlick being one of them

12:20

who wasn't dying

12:22

to see a new avatar as he put it. He wasn't

12:24

clamoring for it. You know, he probably wasn't

12:26

that big of fan of the first one, and that's that's

12:29

something different between the two of you you

12:31

were, someone who really liked

12:33

Avatar. But before I really

12:35

give more of my thoughts, Can I get a little more

12:37

from you then on what you

12:39

think this movie doesn't

12:42

pull off that the first Avatar did? What

12:44

it doesn't to pull off that the first Avatar

12:47

did. Mhmm. I think I

12:50

mean, yeah. This is

12:52

what's holding me back, so we could jump to that if

12:54

you want. I have other things I can praise about the film,

12:56

but I I think for me, it

12:59

doesn't manage the tension. And this is

13:01

a Cameron thing in general. It

13:03

doesn't manage the tension I

13:05

felt in the first one between

13:07

militarism. And

13:11

wonderment at the natural world. I

13:14

really appreciated that in the first

13:16

Avatar and

13:17

the way it echoed similar

13:20

things in Cameron's previous movies

13:22

in including maybe my on

13:24

some days, my favorite film of his, the abyss,

13:26

I think is a very interesting exploration of

13:29

this theme. Here we can

13:31

maybe get into a little bit of the plot for

13:33

way of water. And

13:35

it's tied to Sam Worthington's character

13:37

Jake Sully. Nobody really

13:39

cares about Jake Sully. I I don't know why

13:42

someone hasn't told James Cameron that

13:44

as

13:44

someone who really likes Avatar. I

13:47

mean, no one tells him anything. The movie made,

13:49

however much he made, he can do whatever he wants. Right?

13:51

That's where we're at. But there

13:53

was nothing about that character

13:56

on my first watch that compelled me. I will

13:58

say on my recent revisit, the

14:00

factor that

14:03

he uses a wheelchair because of

14:05

being injured in war. And

14:07

that's where why he finds himself on

14:09

Pandora in the first film. That

14:12

was actually a very distinctive thing I underrated

14:14

the first time I watched it because he spends

14:16

a lot of time using that wheelchair

14:19

in avatar, especially as we think about

14:21

better representation for

14:23

people with disabilities, I

14:25

was struck by the amount of

14:28

the importance of that was to

14:30

Jake Sully's character. It was probably

14:32

the most interesting thing about him in

14:35

retrospect. Obviously, that's a whole different

14:37

conversation we can have, but that's all gone now because

14:39

at the end of Avatar, he has chosen

14:41

to

14:43

give himself over his physical

14:45

body actually to transfer his being

14:48

to become one of the Navi. So

14:50

he's left behind his human form.

14:53

And going into this, I

14:55

thought this is going to be very interesting. Is

14:58

it going to be Cameron further

15:00

exploring

15:02

a different way out of this tension. And

15:04

what I saw as the main narrative thread

15:06

here is that not that this warrior

15:09

has found realized that maybe there's

15:11

a better way to live, and the tension would be

15:13

resolved. But

15:15

he's almost he's

15:18

almost still invading the culture of the

15:20

Navi in this movie rather than subsuming

15:22

himself into the Navi because

15:24

and this goes back to no one cares about Jake Solly,

15:27

because Cameron can't quit this guy. He

15:29

can't quit these hard ass military guys.

15:32

And in all of his movies, in

15:34

most of his movies, there's a tension where he feels

15:36

conflicted about that. And here,

15:38

we see Jake Sully has finally taken

15:41

this turn at the end of the first film, and

15:43

he's running this family of four

15:46

when we first meet him. He

15:48

and

15:49

Nateri played by Zoeyaldana, they

15:51

have four kids he's running them like

15:54

a squadron. First of all, he's wearing

15:56

military gear still even though

15:58

he is a Navi. He's running his family

16:00

like a squadron telling the kids Solly's fall

16:02

in. He makes his kids call him, sir.

16:04

There's a weird thing also where the girls get

16:06

called only baby girl even though they're

16:08

like teenagers. And so there's weird

16:11

gender stuff going on. I don't

16:13

know. I that's that's

16:15

what really disappointed me. I will

16:17

say because overall, I'm favorable on the

16:19

film. I think it has a lot other really good stuff going

16:21

on, but that was the disappointment to

16:23

me is that one of the interesting

16:26

tensions at play in Avatar

16:28

is still there. In the way

16:30

of water, we can talk about what other ways it

16:32

plays out. But it was a very it was

16:34

very much a disappointment that

16:36

still sticking with his sully character,

16:39

he almost regressed into

16:41

something that was just kind

16:43

of like even more generic

16:46

if that was possible. I

16:48

don't

16:48

remember the first film well enough to

16:51

make the connection or direct comparisons that

16:53

you did. But no, I don't think he manages

16:55

that tension at all. And

16:58

you see that Cameron, despite all the

17:01

time he devotes to the

17:03

spectacle of the natural world

17:05

here. There's no doubt that that's there. There's

17:07

also a sense with all of

17:09

those things you described and the Steven

17:12

Lang character, and also the time

17:14

that's devoted to all of the warfare

17:16

and battling, that for

17:18

me, it's as if he just

17:20

can't wait to get to all of

17:22

that. He still can't wait to

17:25

let the bullets rain

17:27

down on people. And I

17:29

find that boring. And I also think there's a tension

17:31

that was an aspect of the first film

17:33

that I didn't like, that here

17:37

is maybe not

17:39

as important, but it

17:41

speaks to maybe

17:43

the lack of sophistication I would

17:45

I would hope for in these cases or at least

17:47

the lack of thought that goes into the script

17:50

in the world building. I was

17:52

glad actually that the Steven Link character

17:54

here in this film, the reincarnation of

17:56

him, touched on this,

17:59

used this against Jake Solly. He

18:01

said one of the reasons he's

18:03

hunting him down, and he's for sure gonna kill

18:05

him, is that he not only

18:07

sold his people out, but he killed a

18:10

bunch of fellow marines, good

18:13

men. Now, Steven Lang's character,

18:16

Coric or whatever his name is. He's not one

18:18

of those good men. He's is blatantly

18:21

an evil character as the movies

18:24

can give us, which is another problem

18:26

think with both films. But Those

18:29

were people he knew, they

18:31

were other soldiers like him.

18:33

When we're watching the film, I understand

18:35

that I'm watching Avatar from the perspective

18:37

of the natives and I'm rooting for

18:39

them and I'm rooting for Jake. But

18:42

watching it as a viewer, you still can't

18:44

help but go Okay. Just

18:46

a little bit ago though Jake was on this

18:49

side of it. And now the movie's

18:51

asking us to root

18:53

for their deaths and

18:55

destruction. It's easy when it's a character

18:57

as bad as Stephen Lang. It's harder when it's just

18:59

Amarin. And I don't think Cameron is completely

19:03

figured that out? No.

19:04

And if if as I said, you know, and we

19:06

read the first film little differently, I feel like he was

19:09

interested in exploring that tension. Here

19:11

it seems like he's

19:13

not or he's not being

19:16

honest about, you

19:17

know, where he really lands. And I give

19:19

I think the tell the giveaway here is a

19:21

later sequence where there's this

19:23

massive

19:25

whale hunting scene. Let's

19:26

just say that. Not getting into all the details.

19:29

But the bad guys are essentially hunting

19:32

the whales. And we

19:34

are absolutely, as you said, on the side of

19:37

the reef people who live in

19:39

community with the whales. We

19:41

know what's right and we know what's wrong here.

19:43

What is the movie excited about? It's

19:46

excited, isn't it? It's excited about

19:48

Yeah. This

19:49

the bad guy's subs. You

19:51

have the bad guy's harpoons and the

19:53

bad guy's crab bots. That's whatever you

19:56

wanna call. And we get it. Right?

19:58

Cameron is the guy who went

19:59

subdied himself. Right? Yep.

20:02

All the toys. So you get it. And and I'm

20:04

not saying that those are in and of themselves bad

20:06

things that that technology and

20:09

an interest in technology is a bad

20:11

thing. But again, it's one of

20:13

those moments where you realize

20:15

this is what the movie really believes in.

20:18

Or as you said, is, you know, is

20:20

really, really excited about. So

20:22

we're

20:23

in agreement there. Can

20:24

I now defend the movie? Or or do you have more

20:26

you wanna complain about? Can I complain

20:29

more about first? Go ahead. Okay. I mean, yeah.

20:31

My my bottom line on the way of

20:33

water It's overwritten when

20:36

it isn't underwritten. It's overwritten.

20:38

It's overblown. I'm over

20:40

it. I I am over it. I just

20:43

watching this, I understand why

20:45

some people can get really excited and they can

20:47

appreciate the visual mastery

20:52

that is exhibited on screen,

20:54

how it's something we've never seen before. I

20:56

get all that, though, I don't

20:58

know how you say that and don't also consider

21:01

how there are times where it

21:04

feels like we all got left at our in laws

21:06

house and the TV is stuck

21:08

on motion smoothing or whatever

21:10

it's called. Right? mean, it's it's there. It's that high

21:12

frame rate -- Yep. -- that happens. And sometimes you

21:14

don't notice it at all. So there's an inconsistency

21:17

to it. And sometimes you just

21:19

can't help,

21:20

but notice it. And I'm not sure

21:22

why three ish hours of that no

21:25

matter how desperate it might be. I don't know

21:27

why that's something I'm excited

21:29

to see. I I wasn't. And I

21:31

think It comes back to the

21:33

same issue I had largely with first one.

21:35

And it is the screenplay. And don't mean

21:37

the dialogue. I was

21:39

very quick to explain that then. Though

21:42

I think that there are absolutely

21:44

some clunkers here, not as many as

21:46

there were in Avatar for me, but

21:50

Screenplay is about other things. In

21:52

addition to dialogue, it's about character development,

21:54

it's largely about structure,

21:57

It's, of course, about these different thematic

21:59

ideas that the movie may

22:01

or may not want to explore. And it was just

22:03

so funny to be watching this film thinking he

22:05

has hung all of this on

22:08

such a flimsy conventional

22:12

told over and over again story.

22:16

Where is one real fresh

22:18

idea amidst all this fresh

22:21

technical wizardry. It feels

22:23

like the ultimate kind of boomer movie

22:26

to me where you've got a filmmaker who

22:28

not only Is he still playing with

22:30

all of his toys? He's then

22:32

also really drawing on

22:35

all of his old films. I know that can be something

22:37

that's a positive for some people to see that.

22:39

But I'm watching him take parts of the abyss,

22:42

parts of Titanic, and put

22:45

them together on screen here.

22:47

Of course, parts of the first Avatar. I was even

22:49

thinking today, is there some connection

22:51

to the Terminator films? And there

22:53

might actually be in terms of

22:56

the idea of protecting your family,

22:58

putting an importance on that, the promise

23:00

of youth and the next generation, the

23:03

attempts at world building and dragging

23:05

this out into multiple installments

23:08

of series. That's all on display

23:10

there. But to me, that just felt a little

23:12

bit tired more than anything. And these

23:14

depictions of the battles,

23:17

these depictions of warriors

23:20

of marines. It's as if

23:22

he's still looking at everything

23:25

through this lens of

23:27

Vietnam and insurgencies and what

23:29

we saw in aliens. He's

23:31

depicting these characters the exact

23:33

same way like he transported them out of

23:35

that film into this film. And

23:38

you're right as well, Josh, about the the

23:40

gender dynamic here. The

23:43

use of that baby girl line, Zooey

23:47

Saldana. You said she was in this film?

23:49

Is she? Really? She doesn't really She's good. She's a

23:51

whole lot. She's really good. When she doesn't

23:53

have enough to do. No. That's just different.

23:55

And the movie also, it's

23:57

not about this clearly, but I think

23:59

you still notice it. I did that The

24:02

movie has both ways where she's

24:04

a warrior, a fierce warrior, sometimes

24:07

more excited or more interested in getting into

24:09

battle than Jake is and she wants to protect

24:12

her family. She's also the character who's

24:14

still very much stuck in the hut,

24:16

doing the cooking, and it seems like the picking

24:18

up around play. So even the gender dynamics here

24:21

all seem a little bit

24:23

out of whack and

24:25

archetypal old school, the

24:29

most interesting parts of this film potentially

24:32

are things that are all just

24:34

glossed over to

24:36

set up plot points and to set up

24:39

the basic framework of the story. It's

24:41

ideas like bringing

24:43

back Steven Lang's character, bringing

24:46

him back from the dead in a knobby body,

24:48

and the technology behind that,

24:50

the thinking behind that. How that would

24:53

mess with the character's head.

24:56

For

24:56

the movie, it's, no, we just need to

24:58

do this because it it sets up that he's

25:00

gonna go back into the forest. And he's gonna

25:02

fight and it's about revenge. He doesn't really

25:04

wanna talk about that. Even this idea that the

25:06

movie begins with Josh about happiness.

25:09

Okay. Wait a minute. Let me stop you there because

25:11

you've thrown a number of things. And

25:13

let me just say one thing is having

25:16

to do with the Steven Lion character, Quirich, I

25:18

don't think this is necessarily a strength. I think

25:20

it is more of just an intriguing idea,

25:22

but they do give him a

25:25

sun to actually explore

25:28

those very ideas that you're talking about. I don't

25:30

know that this works because the sun is

25:32

a little bit of an odd character.

25:34

Spider played by Jack Champion. It's

25:37

very convoluted if you haven't seen the film. But

25:39

basically, he was too young when

25:41

Stephen Lang left or

25:43

was killed in the first movie. He

25:45

was a baby, this character.

25:48

And so he's grown up now. He couldn't leave

25:50

the planet. And so he's grown up among the

25:52

NAVI. And so this is a character entirely

25:54

built for exploring those questions

25:56

you were talking about. Now -- Yes. how successful

25:59

it is. But it's it's

25:59

not as I mean, you're you're not characterizing

26:02

it quite fairly by saying they just have Lang's

26:04

character show up to fight again. No.

26:06

Okay. But let me let me clarify one

26:08

thing. First of all, how successful

26:11

it is is still a big question

26:13

in a important one. And the moments

26:15

of in It's a new idea. It's a fresh

26:17

idea. Okay. But the moments of internal

26:20

conflict that we get are few

26:22

and far between and the few that we do

26:24

get show up at opportune

26:26

times when the script needs

26:29

that to happen to bail a

26:31

character out or to add some tension

26:33

to that scene. To make something else happen.

26:35

You know, in that way, they feel

26:38

to me, Josh,

26:39

not actual

26:40

ideas that

26:42

the filmmaker wants to explore, their ideas,

26:44

they're there for the sake of convenience. You didn't

26:47

think it was interesting what

26:49

eventually happens with Quaritch specifically

26:52

related to spider because it's it's

26:55

Filmspotting up future films. That's

26:57

the other thing I felt that I aware of.

26:59

Okay. But it can do more than one thing.

27:01

I thought I thought that choice was directly

27:04

related to some of these provocative

27:06

questions about having

27:09

this character be resurrected in a certain

27:11

way and what that what that means for family

27:13

lineage. And I think there are a lot interesting questions

27:15

about lineage and things going on

27:17

here. I don't know that those are the strengths of this

27:19

film. So I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna fight

27:22

you too hard, but I think they're there. I think they're

27:24

fresh ideas. And

27:26

I think

27:26

they work a little bit better than

27:28

than maybe what you're describing. Well,

27:31

I I do wanna say I am also including in

27:33

that not just the family

27:35

tension in that dynamic with

27:37

his son character. I mean, just the

27:39

idea away from that. Take out the

27:41

spider character completely. Imagine

27:45

if this movie wanted to explore

27:48

in a meaningful way what

27:50

kind of havoc that would wreak on a

27:52

character to find out that

27:54

you've been implanted with somebody's memories.

27:57

And you've now been

27:59

sent on this mission. But what does that really

28:01

what does that really mean? What's that? That's why

28:04

spider is there to to provoke those

28:06

questions. I I I'm saying, I

28:08

think the idea itself is

28:10

potent enough that even without spider,

28:13

it's it's maybe it's from a different film.

28:15

Clearly, Cameron didn't care to go down that

28:17

sci fi aspect of it. But that would have

28:19

been that still supports for me my point

28:21

my overall point that the most provocative

28:24

ideas that the film could have explored,

28:26

the movie decides not to. No.

28:28

It decides to explore it through the character of Spider,

28:31

which you didn't find compelling. That that's a

28:33

different. So Either way, problematic.

28:36

Yeah. I mean, Spider Spider has other issues

28:38

besides the one we're quabbling about. Alright.

28:41

I interrupted you so that was there was something

28:43

else you were going to Well, I was just gonna say,

28:45

again, a different film, but

28:47

a provocative idea. The whole

28:49

opening is all about happiness. It's

28:52

all about this idea of finding

28:54

peace and what

28:56

we know about movies like the

28:58

New World, movies that deal

29:01

with this idea of characters who have escaped

29:04

the structure and rigidity of society

29:06

and they've explored

29:09

these native lands and they've found

29:11

connections to the characters and their nature

29:13

and all those things, there's a

29:15

tension there and that eventually that

29:18

does have to end. And

29:20

you have to wonder just as human nature.

29:22

Goes. No matter how much you

29:24

think that's the peace that you want and the happiness

29:27

that you want, if you

29:29

actually find it, in every

29:31

day. You know, it's the talking head song heaven is

29:33

a place where nothing ever happens. You know, if

29:35

you really find it, you find that piece. Is

29:37

that Is that really fulfilling? Are

29:39

we as human beings even capable of

29:42

existing within a conflict free

29:45

place like that? Here, that

29:47

is something that we could have seen explored

29:50

in Jake Sully's character over

29:52

the course of the film. But the

29:54

movie only uses that idea of

29:57

happiness to set up the

29:59

fact that the bad guys are coming

30:01

back. And in order to protect what

30:03

they have, they gotta fight the bad guys.

30:05

Well, what what I definitely did not need is Jake

30:07

Solly's mid life crisis. So I'm glad it

30:10

did not go down go

30:12

down that route. Alright. So when you were describing

30:15

you know, the connections to Cameron's earlier

30:17

films. Mhmm. Essentially, you

30:19

know, that this is all tourism. Right?

30:21

And I I just

30:23

wanna make the case for for

30:25

something that could be called blockbuster auto tourism.

30:28

Alright? We have basic auto tourism. We

30:30

have vulgar auto tourism. And

30:32

this is blockbuster autism. These

30:34

are this is a massive movie that

30:36

bears the distinct fingerprints of a

30:38

single author for better or

30:40

for worse. This is one of the reasons I'm a defender

30:42

of the Star Wars prequels. I know that's probably not

30:44

helping my case, but they are pure George

30:47

Lucas. Even more so than

30:49

the original films. And and again, for better

30:52

or for worse. The original films are better films.

30:54

Yes. But the

30:56

prequels are fascinating because they are

30:58

so purely George Lucas. Only George

31:00

Lucas would have made some of those

31:02

decisions, given us some of those vint visions

31:04

given us some those images whether

31:07

or not they all work. think of the Wachowskis in

31:09

this manner as well. You look at the matrix films.

31:12

But also something like Jupiter ascending or

31:15

cloud Atlas. And for the record, was

31:17

not a fan of Jupiter ascending. But still,

31:19

you can recognize the Autourous touches

31:22

going on there. These are bonkers'

31:24

visions,

31:25

complete commitment to it, And

31:27

here's the difference. And this

31:29

gets to like why these are so weird because

31:32

they're supported by vast resources. These

31:34

are not atours working

31:37

with tiny budgets and they have to scrape

31:39

something together, which always leads to

31:41

interesting works, but they're very

31:43

different types of works. And you use

31:45

the phrase word world building. And I

31:47

think I just value that

31:50

much more in TV

31:52

in movies, probably. It's

31:55

you know, here, just as astonishing

31:57

as those floating hallelujah mountains in the first

31:59

film

31:59

is this village of these the reef

32:02

people. It's nestled among these

32:04

enormous roots of this mangrove tree

32:06

that's over the water, the canvas

32:08

path stretching between the branches so

32:10

they can get from one home to

32:12

the next. I just love

32:14

being a wash in that stuff when it's

32:16

done this well. And

32:18

the underwater scenes here. Are

32:22

incredible. So bright, so

32:24

stuffed with detail, so immersive.

32:26

This is the sort of stuff. I just I just can't say,

32:28

yeah, it looks nice. But can you

32:30

believe what that character said ten minutes ago?

32:32

I just can't gloss over it when it's

32:34

done this well. I think the moment for me

32:37

you

32:37

know, beyond all the endless creatures we

32:39

see, is at one

32:41

point some characters hide in like

32:44

a giant air bladder, know, part of a seaweed

32:46

forest where there there are air bladders that

32:48

help to stay stay

32:50

afloat. And

32:52

the characters kinda duck under there.

32:54

They're still underwater, but they find a safe little

32:56

pocket of air. And it's just this beautifully inventive

32:59

imaginative reinterpretation of

33:01

our natural world in

33:04

this universe. And I just love that stuff.

33:06

I I I'm sorry. I I think it's amazing. There's

33:08

also these fosterant jellyfish that

33:10

they wear on their backs helps them breathe

33:12

in some way. A burial scene

33:14

amidst a field of an emanate. I

33:17

mean, it's I'm watching some of

33:19

this gas. Now, let

33:21

me support something you complained about because

33:23

I'm with you on the frame. Right? That

33:25

was a huge disappointment to me. didn't know

33:27

going in that is what we were gonna get. I didn't

33:29

know we were gonna get three d. And

33:32

I'm not A3D fan in general.

33:34

I do think the original avatar, it's probably

33:36

one of the two times I've admitted that three d

33:38

add something to the experience. The other is Henry

33:40

Selix stop motion coraline for

33:42

me.

33:43

I do think

33:45

it works the frame rate here for the underwater

33:47

scenes. And the three d works. I didn't

33:49

notice it there. As you said, it's more gyrene

33:51

in some places than others. But

33:53

yes, man, there are some moments where the

33:55

forty eight frames per second made it. Very

33:58

havity. I always think of the hobbit

34:00

when it comes to this. You're right about

34:02

the motion smoothing. Also, video

34:04

game cut scenes came to mind, and I

34:06

only know those from, like, television commercials

34:08

I see while watching the NBA. But I felt like

34:10

that's what I was watching at times, and it did

34:12

take me out of the movie. So I I did

34:15

take a little time to figure out what the heck was going

34:17

on here. And I just wanted to share this for people

34:19

who were curious. This I found in variety

34:21

and they were quoting Cameron at

34:23

the Busan International Film Festival

34:26

about the frame rate. This is what he said. Can

34:28

theaters support variable frame rates

34:31

switching back and forth within the movie

34:33

between twenty four frames per second

34:35

what we're used to and forty eight frames

34:37

per second. The answer is no.

34:39

They just run it at forty eight

34:41

frames per second for way of water. That's

34:43

what you have to do or you can do for the three

34:46

d. And then Cameron said, in any

34:48

part of the scene that we want to be twenty

34:50

four frames per second, we just double the frames.

34:53

And so they actually show the same frame

34:55

twice but the viewer doesn't see it

34:57

that way. So that's why we had

34:59

that experience of it's shifting

35:01

in and out. It's not to the movie

35:03

service. I think the three d would have been

35:05

fine. I

35:06

think the forty eight frames per second

35:08

thing is

35:09

really a mistake. And I don't know that

35:11

we can even say that's

35:13

generational now because I

35:15

don't think there's generation of moviegoers that

35:17

want to see things at that rate. Maybe I'm wrong

35:19

about that. I don't know.

35:21

You

35:22

said you can't focus on what a character

35:24

said when you're looking at the

35:26

immersiveness of this world. Now beautiful,

35:29

it all is and the attention to detail, I

35:31

I get that. Of course, that that

35:33

isn't a fair summation of my

35:36

issue with this film. Storytelling, though that said,

35:38

my favorite bad line in the film or bad

35:40

moment of dialogue is a character

35:42

saying, I can't believe I'm

35:45

chained up again. And It's

35:47

almost like the movie's throwing in the towel and

35:49

admitting, they're trying to make a joke out of something that

35:51

in the moment, I as a viewer was like,

35:53

yeah, I can't believe it either.

35:55

I really can't believe we're back here just

35:57

going in these same circles. This is so

36:00

so tedious. But

36:02

my my bigger point you

36:04

know, or my counter to you, is

36:06

that I can't gloss over

36:09

bad storytelling. Or what I see is bad

36:11

storytelling. Just because of those eye

36:13

popping visuals. I'm

36:15

just not that starved, I guess,

36:18

for spectacle. And everything you're saying about

36:20

o tourism, blockbuster, o tourism.

36:22

Maybe this is a new kind. Maybe what I'm saying

36:25

I don't want is what Cameron's

36:27

giving us and I need to open my eyes to

36:29

it and be more appreciative of it. But my

36:31

challenge to you is that

36:34

cribbing major set pieces from

36:37

your previous work and

36:41

the simplest characterizations of

36:43

things does not equate

36:46

to personality, which

36:49

is what It's really weird stuff.

36:51

It's the weird stuff that I think of when

36:53

I use that term. So,

36:55

like, what is going on with grace.

36:59

Grace's appetite or somehow giving

37:01

birth to

37:03

a child that

37:05

they then adopt. I mean, that's

37:07

what students go by on. Right. That's

37:10

that's the stuff that can

37:12

only happen in

37:15

a vision like this. Mhmm. And

37:17

I don't know I love I mean, I don't

37:20

Again, we have to say this all the time. We're generally

37:22

fans of Marvel. I and I'm not saying this

37:24

is what you want. But I don't want,

37:26

like, a fortieth Marvel film

37:28

when you look at the formula there to say

37:31

nothing of the underwater scenes

37:33

in Wakanda forever, which we both belong.

37:35

Like, give me something like this

37:37

any day that I think is weird

37:40

and unique in an obtourist manner,

37:42

not just cribbing previous sequences. And

37:45

good. And

37:46

for me, it's good as well. Okay.

37:48

For you, it's not. Yeah. That's that's

37:51

the difference. I mean, there's been plenty of times

37:53

over the course of this show together where I've

37:55

praised movies for being bonkers and

37:57

weird. I I usually like that too.

38:00

We're definitely seeing this one

38:02

differently. The world of Pandora has a different

38:04

effect on you, Josh, than it does me. Definitely

38:06

does quick word about Zoey Saldana because

38:08

it's both to her credit and also

38:12

just a question about how the technology works

38:14

here. She is so much better than

38:16

almost every

38:17

other performance here. Every

38:19

other character Certainly, Sam Worthington's

38:22

Jake Solly. Again, don't want to dump

38:24

on Worthington. It's hard to tell what

38:26

why something is working and why is it isn't

38:28

what's in writing, what's in the animation, whatever.

38:31

It's working with a material. I think it's

38:33

working. I think she registers

38:35

so much more strongly

38:37

as an individual with personality

38:40

traits. Despite being, yes,

38:42

you're right, kind of pushed into a weird gender

38:44

role that she never really had in the first movie, so

38:46

it's strange why it's happening now. It's

38:48

the way she moves. It's also her

38:50

vocal register. It's all of

38:52

the the facial distinctions, the

38:55

way her character's ears, will will

38:57

turn back in certain readings or certain

38:59

moments. The way

39:01

she mixes anger and

39:04

grief in,

39:06

again, her movements, but also her

39:08

vocalizations. I don't know

39:10

what you know, it's some magical formula

39:12

that I don't understand because I don't know the technology.

39:15

How much is the animators work? How much is Caldon's

39:17

work? But I think she's really

39:19

really good here. She's the only one. Let's put

39:21

it this way. think we both like

39:23

Andy Circus's work quite a bit. In

39:26

the plan of the apes films. Right? Motion

39:28

capture work. Seldon is the only

39:30

one here working on that level. I I would

39:33

argue And so I wanna call that

39:35

out both as as praise

39:37

for her and the animators working on her

39:39

character. And also just a question,

39:41

like, why isn't Why aren't there

39:43

more performances like that in here as

39:45

there are in the apes films? Okay.

39:47

Promise final final question. What

39:49

was the stranger casting for you? Jamaine

39:51

Clement as a Dowere Marine biologist

39:54

or Eddy Falco as the, like, supreme

39:57

military commander of this planet.

39:59

the That's

40:00

a good question. Both

40:02

surprises. I'd

40:04

say Clement was

40:06

the bigger surprise. But that's

40:09

because the whole character felt

40:12

bizarre to me. It didn't really

40:14

make any sense, but then the con text

40:16

of this entire film. Yedi Falco is

40:19

a really powerful actress. And

40:21

of course, can embody really any

40:23

kind of character you want. So if

40:25

she needs to be a general who's tough

40:27

and can actually seem a little bit intimidating of

40:29

against Steven Lang, I can totally buy

40:31

that with Edifalco. I don't really know what Germaine

40:33

Clement's character was doing here. There are

40:36

moments where he's a marine biologist

40:38

and yet I'll try not to get into too many

40:40

details He's a marine biologist, I think he

40:42

says. But he

40:44

has no problem doing the job

40:46

he's doing, which is not preserving the

40:49

life of aquatic animals.

40:52

And it's another case where we

40:54

get maybe just a few little

40:57

close ups of him reacting, but

40:59

not really giving us a whole lot. I I

41:01

don't know what those moments were really meant to suggest,

41:04

Josh. I'm with you on Clement. Not because

41:07

he's less surprising to be in the movie,

41:09

but

41:09

I would have not expected him to be movie in

41:11

this way, where he's -- Right. -- he's really not

41:14

bringing anything or apparently meant to.

41:16

So okay. Hey, we agree

41:18

on that.

41:20

Memorial like you. I'm supposed to fight.

41:22

Protect

41:26

the people. Let's

41:34

get it done.

41:37

Avatar the way of water opens this

41:39

weekend in wide release. If you see it and agree

41:41

or disagree, you can email us

41:43

feedback at film spotting dot net. Filmspotting

41:46

is produced by Golden Joe DeSoe and

41:48

Sam Van Holgren without Sam and Golden

41:50

Joe. The show wouldn't go. Our production

41:52

assistants are Betty LaVendero and Veronica

41:54

Phillips. And special thanks to everyone

41:56

at WBEZ Chicago. More

41:59

information is available at WBEZ

42:01

dot org. Next week, it is

42:04

the top ten films of twenty twenty

42:06

two with Josh and myself along

42:08

with Michael Phillips and Mariah Gates.

42:10

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42:49

You've been listening for a while. You need to set

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43:13

for listening. This conversation conserves

43:15

no purpose anymore.

43:17

Goodbye.

43:28

Panoply.