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the pump with fuel points. More

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savings and more inspiring flavors. What

0:34

kind of a show are you guys putting on here today?

0:36

We're not interested in art? No. Now

0:38

look, we're going to do this thing. We're going to have a

0:40

conversation. From

0:43

Chicago, this is Film Spotting. I'm Adam

0:45

Kemberaar. And I'm Josh Larson. We

0:48

will learn. Eights

0:52

will earn high. Will

0:55

earn. And

0:58

I... Will

1:01

conquer. The

1:05

Apes did conquer. The box office last weekend.

1:07

Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes did

1:09

big business and has done well with critics.

1:11

We'll see how it does with us. Plus,

1:14

1953's Roman Holiday with Audrey Hepburn and

1:16

Gregory Peck. The sixth and final film

1:18

in our William Wyler marathon. It's all

1:20

ahead. I'll be impressed by the Apes

1:22

Adam when they can ride a Vespa.

1:25

On Film Spotting. Welcome

1:40

to Film Spotting. What a special

1:42

day yesterday was as we're taping this, Josh. Our

1:45

first Mother's Day together. Indeed.

1:48

Yeah, you know, serving me breakfast in

1:50

bed a little overboard, Adam. You know,

1:52

go big or go home, right? Last

1:54

Sunday we hosted a screening of Roman

1:57

Holiday at Chicago's Music Box Theatre. So

1:59

that's how I... I did it. I had

2:01

to schedule a film spotting live event

2:03

on Mother's Day in order to allow

2:05

us to hang out together. We had

2:07

a good time. The crowd seemed to

2:09

have a good time. We did talk

2:11

about after the screening the final film

2:14

in our Weiler marathon. We saved up 1953's

2:17

Roman holiday just for this event. And

2:19

later in the show, you will hear

2:21

our post screening conversation recorded at the

2:23

music box with none other

2:26

than Michael Phillips. First though, Kingdom of

2:28

the Planet of the Apes, set several

2:30

generations into the future after the action

2:32

of the previous Apes films 2011's Rise

2:34

of, 2014's Dawn of, and 2017's War

2:36

for, Apes are

2:40

now the dominant species with remaining

2:42

humans reduced to feral scavengers. Among

2:45

those humans is Freya Allen's May, who

2:47

falls in with a young ape named

2:49

Noah, voiced by Owen Teague, and his

2:52

orangutan mentor, Raka, voiced by Peter Macon.

2:55

What did I miss? He

2:58

spoke. He called

3:01

my name. You

3:05

misheard. You said

3:07

Miss Nova was

3:09

smarter than most. Within

3:12

reason, some

3:14

intelligence to be sure. I have a

3:16

name. Name. I

3:22

was suspicious back in 2011 when it was

3:24

announced that the Planet of the Apes series

3:26

was being revived with Rise of the Planet

3:28

of the Apes, Adam. I

3:31

was deeply ambivalent about the prospect of

3:33

this year's kingdom of the Planet of

3:35

the Apes. On the

3:37

one hand, the three previous Apes

3:40

films far exceeded my suspicions and

3:42

expectations, giving us in Andy Serkis's

3:44

Chimp Hero, Caesar, one

3:46

of the great sci-fi characters and story

3:49

arcs. On the other hand, Caesar

3:51

is long gone in kingdom, something

3:54

of a mythical figure whose memory

3:56

is honored by the likes of

3:58

Raka, the monk-like arena. we

4:00

just heard, and exploited by

4:02

a character we meet later, Proximus

4:05

Caesar, a bonobo who has co-opted

4:07

Caesar's legacy in order to enslave

4:09

the ape clan of the series'

4:11

new hero, Noah. That's

4:14

three new ape characters, played respectively

4:16

by Peter Macon, Kevin Durand, and

4:18

Owen Peague, plus the human

4:20

vagabond May, played by Freya Allen. A

4:23

simple question for you, Adam, to kick off

4:25

our conversation. If you added

4:27

all four of these characters together, are

4:30

they half as compelling as Caesar? Hmm, feels

4:32

like a leading question there, Josh. I did note

4:35

last week that I was going to watch, and

4:37

really it was more of a taunt towards you,

4:39

that I was going to watch Kingdom without making

4:42

time for the previous installment.

4:45

Nor was I going to do any kind

4:47

of series revisit with the first two, and

4:49

I know you have taken in all three

4:51

as you got

4:53

prepared for Kingdom. I

4:55

imagine that seeing Kingdom in

4:58

that context, the context you did,

5:00

re-experiencing the glory of Caesar, did

5:03

those characters in this movie no

5:06

favors? Because even

5:08

without that context, the answer

5:10

is no, they're not. And

5:13

what's telling is, if you ranked

5:15

those four on how compelling

5:17

they are, it arguably

5:19

would be inverse to how much

5:21

screen time they get. With

5:24

Raka and even Proximaus having

5:26

the potential to be really

5:28

fascinating, more so maybe

5:30

than Noah or May, but

5:32

it's Noah and May who really carry the plot.

5:35

And here's why it's so

5:37

rewarding to engage in any type

5:39

of criticism, forcing yourself to really

5:42

think about the movie you just watched and

5:44

have these types of conversations. I

5:46

knew something about the May character didn't

5:49

work for me. A

5:51

very small part of that being Freya Allen's costume

5:53

design, this sort of forest poverty

5:56

chic. I don't know if

5:58

you felt this way, Josh, but she's supposed to be

6:00

a very small part of to be this wild, dirty,

6:02

starving, hunted woman. And she looked to me

6:04

like she walked straight out of a gap ad with some

6:06

dirt rubbed on her face. A little bit. Now

6:09

before anyone writes in, maybe we'll

6:11

get to this. There could be an

6:13

explanation for why she doesn't exactly resemble

6:15

the other scruffy humans that we see

6:18

get caught in the film, but we'll

6:20

move on. That Shakespearean

6:22

depth that Caesar brought, that

6:24

Koba brought too as a villain. Back

6:26

when we reviewed Don, I said, he's

6:28

on par with Iago in

6:31

terms of his shrewdness and also

6:33

his integrity. He's not just evil.

6:35

He's someone who has, he's an

6:37

ape who has reasons for doing

6:40

what he's doing. They have validity.

6:42

His fears are valid. You understand

6:44

his motivations, even if you're not

6:47

rooting for Koba. That conflict driving

6:49

every difficult decision, multiple

6:51

characters in those films made is

6:54

lacking here. And I think the

6:56

reason why, or I'm going to

6:59

posit a theory, Josh, we'll see what you think, is

7:02

that the producers here either gave

7:05

the screenwriters an unfair crucible or

7:07

the screenwriters, Josh Friedman,

7:10

Rick Jaffa, Amanda Silver are credited

7:12

here. They wrote

7:14

themselves into an unwinnable situation.

7:17

It's unthinkable, and I get it, that

7:19

they would make a human the

7:21

primary character of one of

7:23

these installments. That's the original. The

7:26

entire conceit of this new series has been to

7:28

subvert that approach, to show the ape's point

7:30

of view, and it's done so

7:32

successfully, at least through the two that

7:34

I've seen. But part

7:37

of the lack of depth and

7:39

the sense that I had, that

7:41

the narrative is a little disjointed

7:44

and unsatisfying, might be

7:46

attributable to the fact that

7:49

they don't fully introduce Freya until

7:51

about midway through, and they

7:53

keep her identity and her objective

7:57

all a mystery, because it's a Planet of

7:59

the Apes movie. and we need something

8:01

of a reveal. We need to have

8:03

some kind of surprise, apparently. When

8:06

she's the character who has the most

8:09

intense or the more intense,

8:11

fascinating journey, who has the potential

8:13

for that inner conflict, the conflict that we only

8:15

see hints of, and again, I think it's because

8:17

of the story's construction as opposed to any significant

8:20

deficiencies on Alan's part, take

8:23

Noah's journey, the one we saw

8:25

play out, as it plays out in the film, the

8:29

traditional hero's quest, the can

8:31

I as the son live up to

8:33

my father's legacy and save my people,

8:36

the stuff of Dune, the stuff of

8:38

how to train your dragon, and now

8:40

envision the same overarching story,

8:43

but from May's point of view, in

8:45

light of what we learn, in

8:47

light of the final interaction even that she

8:50

has with Noah, which we won't spoil, Noah

8:53

would now be a crucial supporting

8:55

figure, a figure whose

8:57

own personal journey complicates and entwines with

8:59

hers. For me, there's

9:01

no doubt which one is more

9:03

interesting, but it's completely antithetical to this

9:05

series resulting in a

9:07

conundrum that the movie doesn't fully solve.

9:10

Yeah, I think you're hitting on something there, and

9:12

for me, it's what you started with, that these

9:14

are the less interesting

9:16

characters of any that we meet, and

9:19

for me, that held true through

9:21

the end, even after the revelations. On

9:24

May's part, it would be exactly

9:26

what you're talking about, the conceit of these

9:28

recent films. The wonderful

9:30

thing about Rise of the Planet of the Apes is how quickly it

9:32

got us on the ape side, almost

9:35

instantaneously, or at least

9:37

as soon as Caesar, you know, this young chimp comes

9:39

on the scene. And

9:42

so I think that we start to side with him

9:44

and his cause, and so even when I sensed that

9:47

this movie, Kingdom, was becoming more interested in

9:50

the plight of the humans, I

9:52

became less invested, and that's just because of my

9:54

relationship. I understand that that's maybe more of a

9:56

tie to the original film itself and perhaps the

9:58

original film itself. some of those sequels in

10:00

the 70s which I have not seen. But for

10:03

me, for my relationship with this franchise as I know

10:05

it, I was uninterested and you

10:08

know to be honest fairly uninterested by the

10:10

performance too. I'm not saying it's bad but

10:12

it certainly wasn't as gripping. And

10:15

you know Noah as O and Teague, we're given

10:17

a lot of time to get

10:20

on board with him. This movie is to its

10:22

credit I think very leisurely

10:24

in introducing us to Noah and

10:26

this community, this somewhat isolated clan

10:28

he's a part of, their lifestyle,

10:30

the fact that they have trained

10:32

eagles to be hunting partners, we

10:34

get to see these structures they've

10:36

created out of the remnants of

10:38

human civilization. That's all great stuff.

10:41

A really good world building here as you might expect.

10:43

The special effects are up to par

10:45

if not pushing even further than the

10:47

last three films. And overall

10:49

I did like this movie I should say. I'll

10:52

get how I feel as a

10:54

whole but as far as Noah goes, I

10:56

found him to be yes not only a

10:58

very familiar type but even within that type

11:01

a bit hapless, a bit

11:03

frightened and those are

11:05

qualities that could be okay except

11:07

it doesn't really shift or change all

11:10

that much even as

11:12

these experiences become grander and more intense

11:14

that that Noah has. So I was

11:16

never as compelled by him

11:18

as I was. You

11:21

said it. You know Proxima Caesar, this

11:23

would be a villain who is no

11:26

koba I'll say but also but is

11:28

somewhat you know you can understand a

11:30

bit the thinking behind his

11:32

villainy even though you always see him as

11:34

a villain. That makes him more interesting

11:37

and then unfortunately the

11:40

character we get the least of, Raka,

11:42

is the most compelling. This orangutan who

11:44

belongs to this, just the idea of

11:46

him that he's the last in this

11:48

line of monks in the order of

11:50

Caesar. It's playing with the mythology

11:52

of the early three films in a very

11:54

compelling way. He has this this

11:57

somewhat gentle spirit and a

12:00

wisdom, but there's something poignant about

12:02

him being the last of these

12:04

people, and you sense that

12:06

his time is coming and may soon

12:09

be gone. And the performance here is

12:11

the closest we get to what Circus

12:14

delivered, and I believe it's

12:16

Tony Kebbell as Koba, if I have that

12:18

right, what those two grand

12:20

performances, motion capture performances gave us

12:22

in the earlier films, what

12:24

we get here from Peter Macon and

12:27

the effects artists working with the motion

12:29

capture and the CGI imagery,

12:31

the facial expressions and

12:33

the sound design. When I was watching that

12:36

clip, we started with, again,

12:38

before recording today, and I noticed just

12:40

the little noises that Raka makes, which

12:43

are very animalistic, but at the same

12:45

time expressive of his character. And

12:49

I could have spent way more time, and I

12:51

think that's the challenge with Kingdom. It's

12:53

not only the high bar those three previous

12:55

movies have set, and my question, you're right,

12:58

is unfair. I wasn't expecting this to register

13:00

or any characters really to register on

13:02

the level of what Caesar did

13:04

in those other three films, but I

13:06

was hoping maybe for like a, maybe

13:09

a Force Awakens type move

13:11

where they recognize how

13:14

impossible the task, but somehow in

13:16

the casting when you think of

13:18

Oscar Isaac's Poe, Daisy Ridley's Ray,

13:21

John Boyega's Finn, and even

13:23

Adam Driver's Kylo Ren, they riffed on

13:25

what had come before in enough different

13:28

of a way for Force Awakens, at least,

13:30

that made that really thrilling, honoring and new

13:33

at the same time. Now, you could say

13:35

the following films perhaps squandered that a bit,

13:37

but that first film in Force Awakens in

13:39

terms of living up to iconic characters did

13:41

about as well as you could. And

13:44

so, because I have such high reverence

13:46

for this series, at least the previous

13:48

three films, I was hoping for something

13:50

like that, and I think that is where the movie did

13:53

let me down. But

13:55

to return and to say that

13:58

I would recommend the film, I think it's... especially

14:00

if you are a fan of this series

14:02

as well, you will find plenty to investigate

14:04

and interrogate. The world building, the effects, as

14:07

I said, are incredible. And there are a

14:09

ton of ideas here, maybe too many, Adam,

14:12

to what you were saying with the story threads, right? I

14:14

know, and that's exactly where I wanted to go. First, I'll

14:16

just say, maybe to your point

14:18

about Noah not changing enough

14:20

or not having maybe enough of an

14:22

arc in this film, it's because this

14:24

movie, and I just went in maybe

14:27

with unfair expectations in this one regard,

14:29

and it was something that I truly

14:31

hadn't researched at all, obviously, I

14:33

thought maybe this was the

14:35

last film in this series. I didn't realize

14:38

what very much seems to be the case

14:40

anyway, that this is setting the table for

14:42

more films. So we're going to have so

14:44

much more of Noah's growth to see Josh

14:47

over, I'm guessing, a minimum

14:49

two films, if not three, for us to get

14:51

to where we actually need to go. So that

14:53

was a little bit of a surprise for me,

14:55

but yes, the ideas. And I think there's enough

14:58

of them there to make the

15:00

movie interesting while also

15:02

frustrating you at

15:04

how much more it might have done with these. But

15:06

I want to kind of throw it back to you

15:08

rhetorically. I saw your comment on Letterboxed,

15:10

where you said, one wonders if the germ

15:12

of an idea prompted this installment, or if

15:14

the assignment came first, then the brainstorming, and

15:16

you said, I suspect the latter. And I

15:18

wondered when I saw it, I hadn't seen

15:20

the movie yet, I wondered, well, what's the

15:22

idea? What could the idea be? And I

15:24

know you did say germ of an idea,

15:27

so it could be as simple as another

15:29

apes movie. That could be where

15:31

it started, right? But I read it and

15:33

thought, I wonder what that

15:35

idea could be that

15:38

would have justified the effort.

15:41

And then after seeing it, I still wondered kind of

15:43

what that idea might have been. If you had to

15:45

pinpoint the concept, the high concept

15:47

of Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes,

15:50

what would it be? Because there are a

15:52

few different elements and ideas at play here

15:54

that are interesting, if not

15:57

fully explored, or maybe not coalescing.

16:00

totally convincingly. It's not

16:02

just about mythology that it's flying with

16:04

of the previous three films. How

16:06

about with Caesar, several

16:08

generations after his death, terrible

16:10

deeds being done in his name, his

16:13

legacy, his words and his actions promoting

16:16

love and compassion, exploited now,

16:18

misunderstood, misapplied, an apostle. When you

16:20

knew him, still trying to spread

16:22

the gospel, the proper gospel. I

16:24

don't know, sound familiar at all?

16:27

Jesus and Christianity aren't actually mentioned

16:29

directly. So I suppose I have

16:31

to call it subtext, but it's

16:33

so obvious and undeniable so as

16:35

to almost be text in this

16:38

film. How about this leader Proximus?

16:41

And this is where it could have, to your point, tied

16:44

a little bit more back, at least thematically or

16:47

emotionally, psychologically to Coba.

16:50

You have a leader who's essentially

16:52

rebuilding Rome. He's

16:54

creating a kingdom in Julius

16:57

Caesar's image based on

16:59

history books that tell

17:02

of the creation of this empire. He's basically

17:04

using it as a how-to manual for

17:07

domination. And there were times

17:09

when we're introduced to that world, and

17:12

here again, great world building and special

17:14

effects, the motion capture here.

17:16

When we're introduced to this world, this

17:19

empire that he's building, I thought for a

17:21

second I was watching maybe Ben Hurr again

17:23

from our Weiler marathon, right? Because it is

17:26

directly calling on imagery not only

17:28

from previous homes in the series, but

17:30

from the Roman Empire. And

17:33

then it's fun to think about the

17:35

fact that he's rebuilding Rome, but perhaps

17:38

ironically not fully aware or not thinking

17:40

about the fall of Rome, or the

17:42

fact that he's taking cues from

17:45

the humans on how they ruled

17:47

in fairness for millennia, but

17:50

obviously did fall. They're hubris leading to

17:52

the fall and the dominion of the

17:54

apes like him. So again, some

17:57

irony in how much do you actually want to rebuild?

18:00

repeat history and emulate the humans?

18:02

Or is it really just all about grabbing

18:04

power now while you're still around and leaving

18:06

others to worry about the future? We never

18:08

get a full sense, I don't think, of

18:11

what it is that's driving Proxima. And then

18:13

finally, Josh, and you can jump in here

18:15

with any of these and go the direction

18:17

you'd like. There's that question of how

18:19

the movie does or doesn't connect back

18:21

to the larger, the larger

18:23

eight series as a series of

18:25

prequels moving us closer to what

18:29

Chuck Heston finds on the beach. Can't

18:31

really get into that without getting into spoilers,

18:33

but I wonder for anyone watching

18:35

this film how much it did

18:38

or didn't deliver on that front. So

18:40

again, a lot of interesting things going

18:42

on, maybe in fact, a few too

18:44

many. Perhaps Proxima Caesar had not

18:46

gotten in his self-education. And I think

18:48

we can say without spoilers, William H.

18:50

Macy shows up as a human to

18:53

guide him, a teacher to guide him in

18:55

the previous ways. A sort of conspirator. Yeah.

18:58

Anti-human. Essentially. Maybe

19:01

they haven't gotten to the lessons about the

19:03

fall of Rome yet. And so I guess

19:05

not. Keeping those books from the apes. Maybe.

19:07

I do think, yeah, you've hit on what

19:10

I did find most compelling and I wish

19:12

had gotten more screen time is this idea

19:14

of Proxima Caesar, essentially co-opting

19:17

a belief system in the pursuit

19:20

of power. And this is something

19:22

that has happened forever, but also is something

19:24

that is very much, if you consider, and

19:26

there are many allusions to Christianity here, what's

19:28

happening with Christian nationalism in the United States

19:31

right now. Obvious parallels there.

19:34

And yeah, we dig into, I actually,

19:36

I'm doing a double podcast apes day

19:38

today. I just recorded this afternoon, the

19:40

Think Christian podcast on this, and we

19:42

spend a lot of time on how

19:45

Proxima is co-opting religion in this

19:47

way. And also what Raka

19:49

represents as trying to preserve the true gospel

19:52

as you put it. Yeah. There's tons of

19:54

good stuff there. It doesn't

19:56

get as much attention as perhaps I

19:58

wanted, or the movie doesn't. get to

20:00

it soon enough, maybe. Maybe that's

20:02

the problem. And it is related to this idea,

20:04

the germ of an idea you were asking about.

20:06

What I meant by that is

20:09

I don't know the production history of this film

20:11

or Rise of the Planet of the Apes. But

20:13

what it felt like is

20:15

someone involved in Rise sat

20:18

up one night or maybe was watching

20:20

those first films and thought, what

20:23

if we made a movie about how this all started and

20:25

anchored it from an actual singular

20:27

apes perspective. Okay. That's a great idea.

20:30

That it's a high concept idea. It's

20:32

a great idea. It's enough to inspire

20:34

you to want to make a movie,

20:36

if not a couple. And

20:38

here, I think you nailed

20:40

what may have been the driving

20:43

idea here is let's bring this

20:45

thing back to the original films

20:47

in a way. Let's expand the

20:49

mythology, which is not a

20:51

project I'm personally that interested in, but

20:54

I'm not going to say it's an

20:56

invalid project, but it also seems if

20:58

that's the case, it seems like one

21:00

that is a bit

21:03

rudderless as initial motivation,

21:05

rather than someone saying,

21:08

I have this idea of Noah,

21:10

this chimp, and here is his story.

21:12

We get a little bit of that.

21:14

We also get this idea of Raka

21:17

and maybe we explore Caesar's legacy that

21:20

way. And then we get Proxima

21:22

Caesar and how he's, the

21:24

legacy is filtering through him, but

21:26

it's all subservient, I feel like

21:28

to the extension of this franchise.

21:31

And I know that's been part of the first three

21:33

films too. I'm not naive to think this is not

21:35

a factor at play. This one, it

21:38

feels like a larger factor, a

21:40

more dominant factor. And that's not to

21:42

the movie's credit. The most blatant

21:45

for me reference to those films.

21:47

And maybe you have another one in mind. There

21:49

are certainly others, but it's been a little while

21:51

since I've seen Planet of the Apes. That

21:54

scene where we do see apes

21:56

round up humans and chase down

21:58

not only May, but others

22:00

who look an awful lot like Charlton Heston

22:02

does in that original film.

22:04

Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes

22:06

is out now in wide release. If

22:08

you see it and agree or disagree

22:10

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22:12

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easy to do. It's something you can knock out

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right now while I'm talking. Every one of these

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that we got from Ski by the Bay.

22:44

Adam and Josh begin each review as if interviewing

22:46

each other, asking how they approach the film or

22:48

how their assumptions were challenged. I'd rather be in

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the room discussing the film at hand in person,

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but each week's podcast is the

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Ski. We appreciate that. Another way

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to support us is if you

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over at filmspottingfamily.com. We wanted to

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welcome a new member, Jeremy, in

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Seattle. Jeremy says that he can't

23:12

remember what caused

23:14

him to finally listen. He's heard film spotting mentioned

23:16

in so many places. People can't stop talking about

23:18

it, Jeff. Oh, wow. Yeah. Good

23:20

to hear. The Letterbox Four Favorites. He's

23:22

got The Red Shoes, Le

23:25

Cirque La Rouge, Solaris, and

23:27

Mishima, the Paul Schrader film. Now, I don't know,

23:30

Josh, as you heard me say those titles,

23:32

if you thought maybe Jeremy was going to be

23:34

a little cheeky with us and he was just

23:36

starting a pattern. He'd go from The Red

23:38

Shoes to Le Cirque La Rouge to, I don't

23:40

know, Kislavski's Red, Code of Man,

23:42

to Raise the Red Lantern. We could

23:45

go in a lot of directions there. He's probably

23:47

regretting now that he didn't do that. I think

23:49

he should change it. Get on that, Jeremy. Favorite

23:51

movie that he revisited recently, he watched

23:54

a Lord of the Rings marathon and

23:56

he credits this movie with becoming a

23:58

cinephile though he acknowledges. a boring answer.

24:01

Boring but not incorrect, Citizen

24:03

Kane. Yeah, that's a good one. Well,

24:05

thank you, Jeremy, and welcome very

24:07

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May bonus, I think, have we settled

24:31

on this, Adam? The Crow 94? I think

24:34

we were all on board. It was Sam's

24:36

idea, our producer, after listening to

24:38

our recent summer movie

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preview, fully adieu, adieu.

24:43

We pitted against each other

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some 90s reheats, all mid 90s

24:48

films, including The Crow. You

24:50

did see it then, Josh? I have

24:52

seen The Crow, yeah. But I did

24:54

not in 94, and I've always been

24:57

curious about it. So Sam is

24:59

in that same boat and thought, selfishly,

25:02

let's suggest it for bonus content, and then

25:04

we will compel ourselves to finally

25:06

catch up with it. So I'm on board if you

25:08

are. For sure, yeah. Can't wait to give it another

25:10

look. I don't think I've seen it since 94. Okay.

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You also get complete archive access

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family.com. So

25:26

Connor, sometimes I feel like you're trying

25:28

to stick pins in your readers. I

25:30

don't think you need to make them

25:32

suffer in order to introduce them to

25:35

the unusual way your mind works. You've

25:37

been writing any cute stories lately. That's

25:40

from the trailer for Wildcat, a

25:42

biopic about writer Flannery O'Connor, directed

25:44

by Ethan Hawke. The film stars

25:46

Maya Hawke as O'Connor, and it's

25:48

currently out in limited release. O'Connor's

25:51

work formative for me,

25:53

Josh, maybe the first

25:55

set of stories I had to read

25:57

and write about in my. Tutorial

26:00

as a freshman at Grinnell intro to

26:02

God in modern fiction. There's a University

26:04

of Iowa connection there as well She

26:06

attended the fame Iowa writers workshop received

26:08

her MFA in 1947 though None

26:12

of the scenes that supposedly take place on the

26:14

campus of the University of Iowa in the movie

26:16

look anything like University of Iowa

26:20

Richmond or something and I know it's set

26:22

in the past but didn't feel like Iowa

26:25

City to me I won't hold that against

26:27

Ethan Hawke or Flannery O'Connor Recent

26:29

trip to Savannah that Sarah and I made I

26:32

think I just discovered this one day

26:34

I hadn't really planned what we were going to

26:36

do is tourists in Savannah Just kind of wanted

26:38

to kick back enjoy a little food Enjoy,

26:41

you know some drinks Josh realize that

26:43

maybe three blocks away is the Flannery

26:46

O'Connor childhood home and museum

26:49

We definitely enjoyed that experience. Oh, yeah, and

26:51

if you need anything else, I Remind

26:54

you that film spotting favorite Ethan Hawke

26:57

is directing this film So I had a

26:59

lot invested in Wildcat was eager to see

27:01

it. What did you make of it? I

27:03

liked it and it's probably I haven't

27:05

seen everything Ethan Hawke has directed but

27:08

it's probably my favorite of his I

27:10

found You know

27:12

probably the the quality that you would associate

27:14

with him or at least I do when

27:16

he's not performing on screen

27:18

Is as a champion

27:20

as an enthusiast and I think that's been

27:23

a strain through the works that he's directed

27:25

from blaze That's the 2018 biopic

27:27

about country singer-songwriter blaze Foley. I

27:29

would go all the way back

27:31

to 2001's Chelsea walls,

27:34

which is this series

27:36

of stories loosely connected stories inspired by

27:38

the bohemian history of of New York

27:41

City's Chelsea Hotel and That

27:44

it has just brimming with enthusiasm about the

27:46

the artistic creativity the lore You know, this

27:48

is the stuff that Hawk just loves to

27:50

champion and dig in you and

27:53

I think maybe this quick Josh Sorry with

27:55

the last movie stars his great documentary series

27:57

all about Paul Newman and Joanne Whittaker words

27:59

so good and certainly falls into line with

28:02

what you're espousing. I think he's made at

28:04

least one other documentary too that works similarly.

28:06

If I enjoyed this one the most, maybe

28:08

it's because like you, I'm the most familiar

28:11

with the subject matter, right?

28:13

Just knowing O'Connor's work and

28:16

have thought a lot about

28:18

her place, particularly as

28:20

a Catholic writer. And that

28:22

enthusiasm comes through here and works,

28:24

again, maybe it's because I recognize

28:26

it. It maybe limits

28:29

the movie though from becoming something

28:31

like the film that came to mind to

28:33

me is one we talked

28:35

about, I think when we did our Jane Campion

28:37

oeuvre review, An Angel at My Table, is that

28:39

when we saw that? A film, Adam, and talked

28:41

about it. And that's Campion's 1990 biopic

28:44

of a New Zealand poet and novelist,

28:46

Janet Frame. And there I

28:48

just recall the, it was

28:50

clear that Campion had reverence for the work, but

28:53

she didn't push her movie too hard

28:55

to make the case. She

28:58

almost held some things at a distance or at least

29:00

she relied on these evocative

29:02

details or these seemingly inconsequential

29:04

vignettes to let us

29:07

feel what that life and what

29:09

Frame's life and work was like.

29:11

And here, Hawk is

29:13

just so enthusiastic. He just

29:15

wants you to immerse yourself in

29:17

these stories. And I

29:20

will say that I don't

29:22

think the recreations, the dramatizations

29:24

of some of O'Connor's work,

29:27

I love the conceit of it because

29:29

it busts up the biopic formal structure.

29:32

But I don't know if those entirely

29:34

worked for me. Something about the acting

29:36

in them. And there's another conceit where O'Connor

29:39

imagined, say, her mother, played by Laura

29:41

Linney, as a character in her short,

29:43

one of the short stories that were seen.

29:46

They're recurring in multiple short stories. So I'm curious

29:48

to hear how that worked for you. I just

29:50

found a big gap between, Linney's a good example.

29:52

I think she's great as O'Connor's mother. The scenes

29:55

between them capture the tension of

29:57

that relationship, the love, but also the misunderstanding

30:01

over what O'Connor is trying to do and

30:03

her mother just can't get there. But

30:06

then you see Lenny in the

30:08

scenes playing a character. Right. And

30:10

it's lacking the subtlety that is

30:13

such a strength of O'Connor's writing.

30:17

But let me get back to something I did

30:19

really like and that's Hawk's performance, Maya Hawk's performance

30:21

as O'Connor. I'm going to stop there and

30:23

let you... We'll get

30:25

back to Maya Hawk maybe because I've given

30:27

you enough. Yeah, maybe tell me how you

30:29

thought what you made of those dramatizations. That's

30:31

what I'm really curious about. Well, I liked

30:33

them overall mainly because as you said, the

30:36

conceit of it, the construct of the film,

30:38

it did work for me. But you raise an

30:40

interesting point and it's something that I was very

30:42

aware of as I was watching the film,

30:44

which is how much more I

30:47

liked Laura Lenny in those scenes as

30:49

her mother as compared

30:52

to the scenes where she's quote

30:54

unquote acting, where she's playing a

30:56

character. And it is less subtle

30:58

in that way. Now this show, before your

31:00

time, we have a little bit of a

31:03

history with Laura Lenny in terms of our

31:05

producer, Sam, I need to go to the bullpen

31:07

and bring him in and he can explain his

31:09

complicated feelings about Laura Lenny as a performer. I

31:12

don't want to turn this conversation

31:14

about this movie into a referendum on Laura

31:16

Lenny other than to reiterate

31:18

what you said, which is I think

31:20

she is more effective ultimately in

31:23

those everyday scenes, if you want to call

31:25

them that with Maya Hawk and the other

31:27

ones do feel a little forced, but I

31:30

still think some of them and some of

31:32

those performances work better than

31:34

others. And some of those characters that she's

31:36

playing are more interesting than others. And

31:39

you use the word that I think is so

31:41

important when talking about this film and Hawk's approach,

31:43

which is feel. Hawk

31:45

vividly depicts what one

31:48

deduces from O'Connor's

31:50

brash, unrepentantly idiosyncratic

31:53

work, the blurring of

31:55

her imagination and reality. That

31:57

is the ultimate conceit of this film. The

32:00

moment that opens one of the

32:02

trailers, if not the only trailer for the film,

32:04

really exemplifies it, right? Though there are many examples

32:07

in the film. A gunshot from

32:09

one of her characters, this is how the

32:11

film opens, that rattles her

32:13

own head forward suddenly as if

32:15

she's been shot, as she's sitting

32:17

at the typewriter. The act of

32:19

creation, as depicted

32:21

here by Hawk, by

32:23

O'Connor is visceral. Yeah, those transitions

32:26

are really nice. Yeah, she feels

32:28

every moment of

32:30

it as they are coming to life for

32:32

her. And you mentioned that this

32:35

is the second time Hawks directed a biopic.

32:37

The first one was about Blaise Foley, talked

32:39

to him here on the show about that

32:41

movie and started by talking to him about

32:44

approaching biopics and how he chose to do

32:46

it in an unconventional way. And

32:49

here he's done it again in a way that is more challenging

32:51

than that, more inaccessible perhaps

32:53

than that. But O'Connor,

32:56

I don't think would have it any

32:58

other way. Now Blaise was an anti-biopic

33:01

in that it's not about someone famous, not

33:03

a figure biopics are typically made about. And

33:06

that then determines a lot of his formal

33:08

approach. It does here as

33:11

well, even though O'Connor is more famous,

33:13

she's more known certainly than Blaise Foley.

33:16

And like a lot of great artists

33:18

who we see in biopics, she has

33:20

a tragic arc dying relatively young. And

33:23

I isn't interested in trying to

33:25

explain Flannery O'Connor, which would be

33:27

naive anyway. What he can

33:30

and what I think he does do is give

33:32

us a vision of how she

33:34

processed the world, how she might have

33:36

processed the world through her work. He's

33:39

willing to engage in that kind of imaginative

33:42

speculation. And I

33:44

think that's the fun of this film.

33:46

That seamless weaving then of her writing,

33:49

quote unquote, in her head, Visualizing

33:52

these stories and the characters, then

33:54

that almost Wizard of Oz-esque element

33:57

of the everyday people from her

33:59

life. That being cast it

34:01

all of these twisted scenarios enough

34:03

for me here. A hawk. Gets.

34:06

His cake any to to. In. The sense

34:09

that he gets to explore the

34:11

mind of this incredible artist. And

34:13

do it in his own idiosyncratic way. But.

34:15

Then he also gets to bring to

34:17

life some of her best stories and

34:19

you think about them like good country

34:22

people. And for me a surprising performance

34:24

how much I loved as a surprisingly

34:26

because I liked him fine in licorice

34:28

pizza. But. I. Think

34:30

I like to be even more here.

34:32

Cooper Hoffman as the bible salesman was.

34:34

One. Of the real thrilled with this movie

34:36

for me but maybe was also just knowing

34:39

that story and knowing what it's leading up

34:41

to. And. That was part of

34:43

the enjoyment for me. Yeah it. it's an

34:45

interesting question if you, because I'd read most

34:47

of the stories that are dramatize here, but

34:49

not all of them. And there's definitely a

34:51

different experience the ones where I knew where

34:54

they were got because we don't get the

34:56

whole story in that there every case either.

34:58

So to know where it's going to and

35:00

or where it had started earlier, it's definitely

35:02

a different experience. He said something. they're talking

35:04

about how O'connor is depicted here. feals every

35:06

moment and I think that's that's very true.

35:09

A great way to put it in it's

35:11

also speaks to. My A Hawks

35:13

performance. That's what we get from the

35:15

performance. Here it's I'll go have a

35:17

good a roundabout way here but it

35:20

it's really connected to. What's.

35:22

Interesting about O'connor's writing for me

35:24

and that is. I always think

35:26

with O'connor this this phrase used

35:28

to describe the South which was

35:30

Christ haunted which which she meant

35:32

by that is you know, religious

35:35

and cultural practice but not necessarily

35:37

devotions. It's just this sub into

35:39

the background that that still permeates

35:41

the place and her stories which

35:43

could get gruesome. just bizarre. I

35:45

mean populated by mean people, evil

35:48

characters. In some ways they've always

35:50

struck me as a test. Of

35:52

her own beliefs. As. a committed

35:54

catholic it's like in her writing she

35:56

wanted to push humanity as far as

35:59

a could go And then ask,

36:01

and this isn't always in the stories. This

36:03

is why they're Christ-wanted, because the stories don't

36:05

always end well, right? But it's essentially she's

36:08

asking herself, can the meaning of

36:10

Christ, this idea of grace by

36:12

God as this sacrificial gift, can it

36:14

persist even in a story like

36:17

this, with people like

36:19

this? And you come away from

36:21

reading a lot of her work and wanting to say

36:23

no. But

36:25

the tension, especially when you

36:27

know some of her biographical background, the tension

36:29

there in her stories is

36:32

what makes them so special, I think, for me. And

36:35

I think it's written all over Maya

36:38

Hawk's face. You have this

36:40

spiritual agony, and you have this

36:42

spiritual courage fighting in the performance.

36:45

And it reminded me, Adam, of

36:47

Hawk's performance in First Reformed as that

36:49

tortured pastor. There's even a shot, I

36:51

swear to you, there's a shot of

36:53

her writing desk. And I forget where

36:55

we actually are at some moment, but

36:58

it's very cloistered, the desk itself, and

37:00

it's in this kind of sparse room.

37:02

And it looks exactly like the desk

37:04

that he got at in First Reformed.

37:07

So I think there's something about Maya Hawk's

37:09

performance that gets to the truth

37:11

for me of O'Connor's writing as much

37:13

as anything in this movie. Yeah, and

37:16

all those different types of agonese you're

37:18

talking about, including a very physical one,

37:20

which she has to embody and

37:23

capture as well. And

37:25

all of those agonese, all of that

37:27

tension is very much in this performance

37:29

by Maya Hawk. Wildcat is

37:31

currently out in limited release, including here

37:33

in Chicago at the Music Box. I

37:35

think Ethan Hawk is going to be

37:38

there, Josh. That would be

37:40

cool. We're dreading that I will not be in Chicago

37:42

for that. But you can see Wildcat,

37:44

and you can see one of our

37:46

best processors of

37:48

the artistic process. That's

37:51

Ethan Hawk, have him talk about his

37:53

own film here. The Chicago Critics Film

37:55

Festival closed last weekend. That was also

37:57

at the Music Box. A bunch of

37:59

sell-outs. screenings. You managed to

38:01

catch a couple of them. Would you

38:03

like to enlighten us? And speaking of

38:05

enlightening us, I do just want to

38:08

put a bow on our conversation about

38:10

Wildcat. Who knew that we'd be talking

38:12

about two films in Wildcat and Kingdom

38:14

of the Planet of the Apes that

38:16

very much dealt with the exploitation of

38:18

Jesus. Yeah, it's true. Whole

38:20

bunch of people doing bad things in his

38:22

name. Very different movies. They're

38:24

definitely both concerned with that. Yeah, I mean,

38:27

you know, you mentioned Hawk, who I'm sure

38:29

will do a great Q&A at When

38:31

He Brings Wildcat to the Music Box. I was

38:33

able to catch a couple there as part of

38:35

the Critics Festival. And not

38:37

for the first film I'll talk about though,

38:39

Gasoline Rainbow. This comes from

38:42

brothers Bill and Turner Ross. We've

38:44

talked about both, really appreciated their

38:46

previous film, Bloody Nose, Empty Pockets,

38:48

and Gasoline Rainbow. Is

38:50

something of a documentary fiction hybrid

38:52

like that one was. Here

38:54

they're following a teen group of friends

38:57

living in middle of

38:59

nowhere, Oregon, and decide to take off for

39:01

the coast just to get out of their

39:03

town and find some freedom.

39:06

And these are five first-time actors

39:08

playing versions of themselves. Similarly

39:11

to, you know, Bloody Nose, Empty Pockets

39:13

was ostensibly documenting the closing night at

39:15

a dive bar and the people who

39:18

lived there. Well, it wasn't actually

39:20

closing night. It was a different dive bar. than

39:22

what they were inspired by. And they cast these

39:24

people, but they were sort of playing versions of

39:26

themselves. So this is the world these two movies

39:28

play in. I would say, you know,

39:31

Gasoline Rainbow creates a

39:33

more familiar place in story

39:35

than Bloody Nose, Empty Pockets. I found

39:37

it a little less inventive

39:40

and thrilling than that one. But the way

39:42

the movie sees these kids is really

39:45

special and allows them to

39:48

see each other and present themselves in the

39:50

way they choose to be presented by using

39:52

footage from their camera phones and things like

39:54

that. So I would definitely

39:56

recommend Gasoline Rainbow if it's

39:58

playing near you or or it's soon

40:00

to come to streaming if you're able to catch it there.

40:03

Another one I want to mention, I'm just going to be real

40:06

quick, and there was a very

40:08

good Q&A for this afterwards with

40:10

the director, India Donaldson, the

40:12

writer and director. The name

40:14

of the film is Good One. And

40:16

this is about a girl about to

40:18

go off to college, but before she

40:21

joins her father and his

40:23

longtime best friend on

40:25

a camping trip. And

40:28

it's a rough watch if you're a dad of

40:30

girls that age because it's very much

40:32

interested in how the men

40:35

in your life can disappoint you in

40:37

different ways. But it is so beautifully

40:39

observed and has just a knockout debut

40:42

performance, I'm pretty sure from Lily

40:44

Colius as the daughter.

40:46

So I want to put that on people's

40:48

radars because I think it's not going to

40:50

be out in theaters till August, but it's

40:52

definitely one to look out for and hopefully

40:54

you'll have a chance to catch that later

40:56

in the summer. So confirming what we heard

40:59

from Steve Prokopi a few weeks back when

41:01

we previewed the fest, Good One was one

41:03

of the three titles, three-ish titles that he

41:05

singled out then and talked about that breakthrough

41:07

performance as well. So sounds like you and

41:09

Steve are on the same page there. Yeah,

41:11

definitely. And lastly, real quick, because we're going

41:13

to get to this ourselves coming up soon,

41:16

but Jane Schoenbrunn's I Saw the TV Glow,

41:18

I was at that sold out screening, a

41:21

great Q&A after a very revealing and

41:23

quite funny Q&A too. Obviously

41:26

I'll say more when we get to

41:28

our official review, Adam, but it's

41:30

one I'm excited to talk about. Yeah, I mean, what

41:32

are you doing? Just bragging now that you got

41:34

to be there? Is that what that

41:36

is? A little bit. And also honestly

41:38

glad that I saw it in time to

41:40

sit with it for a while because I

41:43

scribbled down some notes, but I've not done more

41:45

than that because it's

41:49

really challenging in good ways, but I need

41:51

to stew on it for a little more.

41:54

Okay. Jane Schoenbrunn's I Saw the TV

41:56

Glow debuted at Sundance in January, has

41:58

been getting rave reviews at Fox. fest

42:00

ever since, including the fest. Josh

42:02

just mentioned the Chicago critics film festival already

42:05

on our radar because of 2021's golden brick nominee. We're

42:09

all going to the world's fair. It's

42:12

out now it's in limited release, but it

42:14

is expanding wider this weekend, which means I

42:16

will finally get to see it.

42:18

So we're definitely going to talk about, I

42:20

saw the TV glow next week on film

42:22

spotting. We also do have to fully

42:25

conclude our William Wyler marathon with

42:27

our William Wyler marathon awards. And

42:29

yes, we're looking for a

42:31

name for those awards. We love

42:33

to utilize listener suggestions for

42:36

those. And we came close. We, we

42:38

had the final movie. We watched it and discussed

42:40

it. You're going to hear it in a moment.

42:42

1953 is Roman holiday at the music box and

42:45

certainly Audrey Hepburn going to be in contention

42:47

for best lead performance. There's also

42:50

best supporting performance. The usual suspects will,

42:52

we'll do our best picture. We'll do

42:54

the best overall scene, but

42:56

then we always like to have a

42:58

marathon specific idea, and we've referenced a

43:00

few of these already throughout the course

43:03

of this marathon. I bring up some

43:05

Wyler conventions, if you will, right at

43:08

the beginning of our Roman holiday conversation.

43:10

I'm not sure where to go with this one.

43:12

Are you leaning any one way right now for

43:15

what that category should be? Or do you want

43:17

to think about it some more? Yeah, I got

43:19

to think about it some more. This isn't a

43:21

director who has an obvious signature and we get

43:23

into this a little bit in our

43:25

Roman holiday review. I think how that

43:27

is a strength of Wyler, you know,

43:29

how he knows when to step back

43:32

as a director. So yeah, it's

43:35

going to take a little time to

43:37

think of what might summarize him as

43:39

a filmmaker the best. We're

43:41

also looking for any ideas you

43:43

may have about that category. Feedback at filmspotting.net.

43:46

Producer Sam always thinking

43:48

about trying to get more downloads is

43:50

suggesting best fight about a William Wyler

43:52

film. I think we have

43:54

the answer. Surprisingly dusty. Doddsworth

43:57

versus Mrs. Miniver. I

43:59

think. I think we may have the answer

44:01

maybe not up for debate we. Probably

44:04

should say i'm had a good idea here probably

44:06

just call the awards the oscars since he won

44:09

so many of them and i'm a native on

44:11

a Sunday. You really could now here's the part

44:13

where we have to have a little bit of

44:15

an honor production meeting. I

44:17

think i might be able to see furious

44:19

in advance of its opening on

44:21

friday may twenty fourth which will

44:23

be the release of our next show.

44:27

So if i see furious we've got that we've got

44:29

i saw the tv glow we've got the while the

44:31

rewards are we gonna try to fit all three of

44:33

them in sounds like a great show to me. Sounds

44:36

like a film spotting show there

44:39

you go stay tuned for that

44:41

one more mention for the upcoming

44:43

meeting of our film spotting advisory

44:45

board wednesday may twenty second though

44:47

i heard this weekend with

44:49

some people. Come all the way from

44:52

new york film spotting trivia

44:54

spotting mafia members quiz

44:56

master thomas tod ross bratton they told me

44:58

that wednesday may twenty second is. Fellow

45:01

mafia member bianca soto long time

45:03

listener her birthday should

45:05

we move it should we move it for

45:08

bianca josh i mean or we could all

45:10

sing horribly on zoom happy birthday. There's

45:15

gonna be some fun topics discussed we need

45:17

to get the input of that valued film

45:19

spotting advisory board if you would like to

45:21

be part of it you can join the

45:23

fave anytime you can upgrade your membership even

45:25

if you're a current family member more

45:27

info at the spotting family. Com

45:30

east west just points of the compass

45:32

each is stupid as the other i'm

45:34

a member of specter specter

45:37

specter special executive

45:39

for counterintelligence terrorism revenge

45:42

extortion. For great

45:44

quarter stones of power headed by the greatest

45:46

brains in the world correction.

45:50

Criminal brains shawn connery's

45:52

bond james bond with joseph weisman's

45:54

doctor no in nineteen sixty two

45:56

dr no it is time for

45:59

simple. results. A couple of weeks ago, we,

46:02

well, Sam, posed this deeply flawed

46:04

film spotting poll question, choose

46:07

one 1960s film, including

46:09

all its sequels and

46:11

everything it went on to influence. Your

46:14

options were, Dr. Nell, Night

46:16

of the Living Dead, Planet of the

46:18

Apes, or Psycho. How

46:20

did it come out, Josh? Well, despite

46:22

the love for these recent Apes

46:25

films, it didn't fare too well in

46:27

the poll. It was the 40% last place for

46:29

Planet of the Apes, followed by Night of the

46:31

Living Dead at 19%. That

46:35

surprised me. Psycho got 30%, and

46:38

then Dr. Nell did take it. A lot of

46:40

Bond love still out there, and 40% of the

46:42

vote went that way. It's partly

46:44

why this question is so flawed. It's not as

46:46

if you think about

46:49

the psycho universe necessarily as something

46:51

really valuable. I guess we could add in

46:54

whatever movies we think it directly

46:56

or indirectly influenced, but it's psycho.

46:58

Psycho itself. Yeah, it's psycho itself.

47:00

I guess that's why it's number. Took second place. Do

47:02

you want to live in a psycho-less world? 30% of

47:05

our listeners said no. But

47:08

it was Dr. Nell coming in first place, as

47:10

you said. 40%, Jim Polini

47:12

said, despite some forgettable James Bond films

47:14

in the 80s and 90s, by saving

47:16

this franchise, we do get Daniel Craig's

47:19

Casino Royale and Skyfall, The Bond Villain,

47:21

Q Branch's Gadgets, an iconic musical theme

47:23

song, Judy Dentsch's performance as M, Holiday

47:25

Bond movie marathons, and even the Austin

47:27

Powers movies. There's a reason why Who

47:30

Will Be the Next James Bond stories

47:32

refuse to go away. This franchise is

47:34

so much more than just sexy British intelligence

47:36

and those who make it happen. Here's

47:39

Jeremy Lawfrey. I think Sam is suggesting

47:41

that every film that was indirectly inspired

47:43

or influenced by the three of these

47:45

four films that aren't voted for go

47:48

into the incinerator, along with the direct

47:50

sequels, reboots, reheats, spin-offs, rip-offs. In that

47:52

spirit. It's an obvious choice between not only

47:54

Living Dead and Psycho. And as much as I love

47:56

Romero and the reinvention of the zombie genre and template

47:59

that came from Night, I don't

48:01

know that I could live without the

48:03

slasher genre, which I would argue would

48:05

not have developed or at least not

48:07

in the full force It did in

48:09

the 70s and 80s without psycho a

48:11

world without black Christmas Halloween, Texas Chainsaw

48:13

Scream and Candyman not to mention the

48:15

possible collateral destruction of the similar yolo

48:18

subgenre including torso What have you done

48:20

to Solange and blood and black lace

48:22

is not a world I'm interested in living

48:25

in maybe I'm overestimating the international Influence of

48:27

psycho, but that's a risk. I'm willing to

48:29

take PS I understand the attachment to

48:31

the bond franchise, but let the British misogynist

48:34

die shots fired at Jim Fellini and Jeremy

48:36

doing the work They're saying no, it's not

48:38

just about psycho. It's about

48:40

all these other Genres

48:43

and subgenres that are

48:45

its kin here's Scott Pfister as a fellow

48:47

cinephile I understand the passion behind support for

48:49

psycho and even Night of the Living Dead

48:51

They were ahead of their time and transformative

48:54

in their own ways, but hitches specialty wasn't

48:56

horror It was suspense and even in the

48:58

horror sense the tropes the psycho launch would

49:00

I believe had been created or discovered eventually

49:03

They were fundamental essential to good horror and

49:05

as such somewhat inevitable He was ahead of

49:07

his time, but not in a time of

49:10

his own Scott is arguing Likewise the living dead

49:12

franchise spawned a great many zombie tropes and movies

49:14

But at the end of the day They're just

49:16

one more way to scare us and I'll add

49:18

not nearly as profoundly terrifying as the fast movers

49:21

genre epitomized If not launched by Danny

49:23

Boyle's 28 Days Later No

49:25

The right answer here is clearly dr No,

49:27

just to make it absolutely clear what dr

49:29

No launch was not the spy or espionage

49:31

genre nay It was the suave debonair sexist,

49:33

but still gentlemanly James Bond the character You

49:35

love to watch and might even wish to

49:37

be at least a little bit come

49:40

on boomers and Gen Xers You know it's true

49:42

one example of this though There were many is

49:44

just how ballsy it was to order a martini

49:46

shake and not stirred This is

49:48

the height of the cocktail of which the

49:50

martini never a gin martini that was Redundantly

49:52

repetitive was the king and champion and any

49:55

drinker worth his salt knew that to shake

49:57

a martini would cause slivers of ice to

49:59

enter the drink and who wants a bunch

50:01

of ice pits diluting perfectly good gin? No

50:04

one. Yet Bond had the

50:06

cojones of steel to order

50:08

it that way nonetheless in public out loud in

50:10

front of everyone who was anyone and

50:12

that my friends is character. Does

50:15

Scott know that he can still drink martinis

50:17

if we got rid of all the Bond

50:19

films? That would be allowed. Maybe not, maybe

50:21

not. Thank you for clarifying. Thank you to

50:24

everyone who voted and left a comment. Our

50:26

new poll looks ahead to Furiosa,

50:29

a Mad Max saga. The film belongs

50:31

to the truly cursed sub genre of

50:34

the reheat, The Prequel, which

50:37

gives us the subject for our new

50:39

deeply flawed film spotting poll. We're

50:42

asking you to name your favorite or

50:44

your least hated movie prequel

50:46

since 2010. We're limiting

50:49

it here so that we can exclude actual

50:51

good films like The Godfather Part II, The

50:53

Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, Twin Peaks, Fire

50:56

Walk With Me, and you know Sam put this

50:58

in our notes, even Indiana Jones and the Temple

51:00

of Doom. Oh Sam, let it go. So

51:03

here's some options and since we first

51:05

planned this poll question, Sam

51:07

has eliminated a few options trying to keep them a

51:09

little bit more in line

51:12

with Furiosa as prequels to

51:15

long established and you know mostly

51:17

action franchises. So we have Josh,

51:20

these five. Prey comes

51:23

from director Dan Trachtenberg. This was out in

51:25

2022 and is

51:27

a Predator prequel. Prometheus was

51:29

Ridley Scott's alien prequel from 2012, Rise

51:32

of the Planet of

51:34

the Apes we've already discussed, 2011 for

51:36

that one. Rogue One, a Star

51:38

Wars story. Yes, a prequel, a prequel among

51:40

prequels, 2016 is when that came out. And

51:43

then how about X-Men First Class? You remember this

51:45

Adam from Matthew Vaughn, Director Matthew Vaughn, 2011?

51:48

No. So perhaps you are

51:51

going to be voting other then

51:53

or is it obviously Rise? I'm

51:56

just not voting for sure for X-Men

51:58

First Class or for for Rogue One,

52:00

A Star Wars Story. The other three though,

52:03

Josh, happened to be titles that I like

52:05

very much. So this is a tough one

52:07

for me. I like Prey and certainly didn't

52:09

expect a Predator prequel to work

52:11

as well as that movie did. And yes,

52:14

Rise of the Planet of the Apes was

52:16

also very good. They might

52:18

be better filmed with both of them than

52:20

Prometheus. I know that seems to be the

52:23

conventional wisdom now, but you may

52:25

recall you would just join the show back

52:27

in 2012. That's one of our first

52:29

fights actually, wasn't it? Yeah, though it wasn't

52:31

really a fight as I recall just because

52:34

maybe we were behaving because we were in

52:36

public. We reviewed it live at our 400th

52:38

episode. Oh, with Michael and Dana, right? Yeah,

52:40

so I feel like it was pretty tame,

52:42

but you didn't care for it much

52:44

and I loved it. I felt

52:47

like Ridley Scott brought that

52:49

whole franchise back in a grand,

52:53

spectacular, and truly thinking of it as a spectacle,

52:55

a spectacular way. I really loved that film. And

52:57

then I was disappointed and let down a little

52:59

bit by Alien Covenant. Again, I seem to be

53:02

a little bit out of sync with

53:04

most cinephiles when it comes to those

53:06

two films, but I'm just going off

53:08

my enthusiasm. The enthusiasm I remember when

53:10

I walked out of that early screening

53:12

of Prometheus and it's gonna be my

53:14

answer. All right, well,

53:16

I thought I had a clear one because Prey

53:18

was my vote in an earlier version. Either I

53:21

overlooked it or Sam has since added Rise

53:23

of the Planet of the Apes. And we've

53:25

already covered how much I love that one.

53:28

So as the poll stands now, Sam may

53:30

rewrite this while we're both sleeping tonight yet.

53:32

He might. But as

53:34

the poll stands now, I'm going Rise of

53:36

the Planet of the Apes. There are some

53:38

other notable prequels, as we said, but some

53:41

of the titles we eliminated here, sorry, Wonka,

53:43

which was not going to get my vote.

53:45

I am a fan of Pearl, Ty West, more from

53:48

him coming up. You could also go

53:50

If We'd Included It, and I suppose

53:52

you could write it in as an other option.

53:54

Josh, Mama Mia, here we go again. But I

53:57

have failed to see both

53:59

Mama Mia films. Maybe that should be

54:01

upcoming film flooding bonus content: Ah,

54:03

not with me. Know. Another

54:05

feather hosts get a feel and for

54:08

that if you don't mind. okay, how

54:10

can this be? Sam says that in

54:12

early voting on Twitter wrote one has

54:14

a narrow lead over apes and previous.

54:17

I mean yeah, there's There's a lot

54:19

a Rogue One supporters there is. Yeah,

54:21

you weren't aware of this for shrill.

54:23

Oh yeah. Okay, well

54:26

misguided. At best First

54:28

class at the bottom of the

54:30

glass new modem apple and leave

54:32

a comment at on spotting.net. Have

54:37

access. Yes I

54:40

send away last night. Was

54:45

the matter trouble with a teacher? Know

54:47

nothing of them? Are you don't just

54:49

run away from school for loving? clearly?

54:52

Meant to be for an hour to say.

54:54

Gave me some last night to make me

54:56

sneeze. Search

54:59

said. That it is taxes so

55:01

that. For look for you do.

55:05

For let's take from. Louisiana

55:09

as I lived saves respect for

55:11

Jose that is Audrey Hepburn and

55:14

Gregory Peck in Nineteen Fifty Three,

55:16

Roman Holiday, the six and final

55:18

film in our William Wyler marathon.

55:20

We saved this one for the

55:22

And.because it's while or most beloved.

55:25

That might be the case, but

55:27

really, because we wanted to host

55:29

a screen of the film Inglorious

55:31

Thirty Five Millimeter at the Music

55:33

Box Theater here in Chicago on

55:35

Mother's Day. Adam, I think you

55:38

know we've done this. With

55:40

Rio Bravo we've done this is part

55:42

of our Buster Keaton marathon. I think

55:44

these movies were choosing good movies when

55:46

we're ahead of time, but particular in

55:48

the case for me with Roman Holiday,

55:50

which is movie I've always liked. I

55:52

think there's a thing like the Music

55:54

Box bump. Would. You get added

55:56

up with a crowd that enthusiastic has

55:58

most people you assume have already seen

56:00

it because they're reacting to the lines

56:02

a half second i a times and

56:04

even a little gags little bits of

56:06

business that they know our comments. It

56:08

just elevates the movie so much more.

56:10

This is the best I've ever thought.

56:12

Roman Holiday was same with me. had

56:15

seen it once before. Not.

56:17

That long ago. Actually, I just caught up

56:19

with the movie for the first time, Probably

56:21

in preparation for a top five list sometime

56:23

in the last decade I think. Okay, now

56:25

I did watch it. The. Night before

56:28

because I don't trust my scribblings during

56:30

a movie. It was. I'm not as

56:32

confident as you and Michael to get

56:34

up there on stage and sound intelligent

56:36

if I haven't process the movie first.

56:39

But not. Only did

56:41

I enjoy. The. Movie More this

56:43

third time around. Watching it with that audience

56:45

on that big screen. In hearing all those

56:47

reactions. I actually took away

56:49

and month seventeen new things that I

56:51

did not take away watching it on

56:54

my couch just so. The beauty of

56:56

a live audience. I'm with you, There

56:58

was something about that live audience is

57:00

seeing it there at the music box

57:02

as well. It was he trained send

57:04

an experience that I use that word

57:06

they're specifically in relation to what we're

57:08

talking about. Roman Holiday Always kind of

57:10

a four star movie for me. A

57:12

very good film, understood why it was

57:14

a classic, wasn't necessarily a I thought

57:16

I loved. Now. How

57:19

do I give it anything less than four

57:21

and a half stars? and maybe even five

57:23

stars? That's how I feel about Roman Holiday.

57:25

Now that is that music box bump The

57:28

movie stars. Audrey Hepburn is Princess Anne who

57:30

played hooky from her official duties while in

57:32

Rome when she falls asleep on a park

57:35

bench seats discovered by Gregory Packs, Joe Bradley's

57:37

and American newspaper man whose happened upon the

57:39

Scoop of the Century unless love and a

57:41

little bit of honesty. Gets. In

57:43

the way after the screening, we had a

57:46

chat about the film with our friend Michael

57:48

Phillips from The Chicago Tribune. Every

57:55

one. Are we doing? I

58:00

notice his mother's day but I literally

58:02

just said the Joss. Are.

58:04

You a to rock and roll like like

58:06

a dad like the most. Dad ever told

58:09

him to leave that I ground floor but

58:11

he personnel I have had to do it.

58:13

Welcome to this Mother's Day screening of Last

58:15

Samurai. Scrape three: See so

58:17

many people here. Actually, the only person

58:19

in the world may be prettier. Than.

58:22

Audrey Hepburn as the Land Along Agree and Sophia

58:24

we can all sneak into that the it or

58:26

later. I've always wanted to say this, just do

58:29

we have any Mom's in the house. Or

58:32

rice flour com yes we're really thrilled to be

58:34

other Do this on mother's day and to see

58:37

so many of you out here and making a

58:39

party or special day. I'm gonna do something that

58:41

is either going to make. Someone's.

58:43

Day or get me in a lotta trouble. Ah,

58:45

my mother in law's here, so if

58:47

you wouldn't mind getting Cindy Grunewald a

58:50

round of applause from what else is

58:52

Cindy? If

58:55

it is your life steady steady

58:57

the mother. My children is here

58:59

to better but Cindy spy kids

59:01

fighting so that's that's impressive. I

59:03

know out of here is that

59:05

he's like hold my beer but

59:07

right still. Welcome? Yeah, and

59:09

it's so we haven't really introduce ourselves.

59:11

I'm Adam Caplan are. Just. Larson

59:13

and weren't on citing which is a

59:15

podcast yes like your fantasy we get

59:17

wherever you get your point gas or

59:20

I were on Friday nights on Wbz

59:22

here in Chicago as well and I

59:24

was looking back to Archive this morning,

59:26

Josh and in preparation for this this

59:28

could have gone a lot of different

59:31

ways. We've done a few different mother,

59:33

daughter or mom related top five list

59:35

over the years and. Top.

59:37

Five A movie. Mother daughter's I think I

59:40

had it. Number Five Margaret White. From

59:42

Brian de Palma. Scary So we all could.

59:44

watching carry instead of Roman holiday would have

59:46

to do the whole blood thing with Josh

59:49

it would be. It would be messy but

59:51

one of the things I found in the

59:53

non flooding forum message board. We've had our

59:55

website going back to two thousand and five

59:57

when the show started and someone posted a

59:59

thread. September. Thirteen Two Thousand Six

1:00:01

They asked what if there is favorite film

1:00:03

and then here's the real question. do you

1:00:06

like it move So that's that's a really

1:00:08

fascinating one. I had to think about it

1:00:10

and I realize I guess bad son that

1:00:12

I am. I. Actually, Didn't know

1:00:14

my mom to yeah, she's working full time, five

1:00:16

of us in our house. she just didn't get

1:00:18

out and movies much. I wasn't sure I had

1:00:20

color which are happy mother's day and I had

1:00:22

to ask her and then it all made sense

1:00:24

when she said it because it's a movie we

1:00:26

watched every year together as a kid and she

1:00:28

says she still watches it. Every year

1:00:31

at least. The. Wizard of Oz.

1:00:33

There you go and everything going to say yes

1:00:35

I like you don't get into trouble their yeah

1:00:37

yeah so play their game afterwards. Ask your mom

1:00:39

for her favorite movie and no matter what she

1:00:42

says saw forced to say i like at mom

1:00:44

I like it's it. While I'm guessing I could

1:00:46

be wrong but I'm guessing there's some moms hear

1:00:48

their favorite movie might just be Roman Holiday so

1:00:50

hopefully you you watch it may be for the

1:00:52

first time and you do enjoy it So we'll

1:00:55

talk about this a little bit more would get

1:00:57

to the screening afterwards. Going to talk about the

1:00:59

film, The great Michael Phillips from the Chicago Tribune

1:01:01

is going to join. Us to to make

1:01:03

a sound smart arse, he'll He'll be up

1:01:05

here on stage with us a piano for

1:01:07

a little conversation about that. But on the

1:01:10

show we've been doing in, this actually culminates

1:01:12

a William Wyler of the director of this

1:01:14

film, A William Wyler marathon. Six films of

1:01:16

his. any saying or audience should be on

1:01:18

the lookout for just yeah. I mean, there's

1:01:20

a while or question, but if you haven't

1:01:22

been following along, you know that might be

1:01:24

interesting How we'll place a little bit in

1:01:27

the context of his other films. I'm eager

1:01:29

to revisit Roman Holiday within that context. or

1:01:31

but we'll delve into other. Things as well.

1:01:33

One thing to keep an eye out his

1:01:35

you know somebody knows if you've seen it

1:01:37

already. Know this. But the costume design in

1:01:39

this movie for Hepburn in particular for Audrey

1:01:42

Hepburn, this is one of the Oscars. This

1:01:44

film one, one, three I believe What is

1:01:46

hardly a design eat have had. You know

1:01:48

that not the great even had maybe the

1:01:50

great Us when it comes to costume design

1:01:52

so just keep it in. I am that

1:01:54

not even the showcase costumes where you're like

1:01:57

oh, we're supposed to look at the cost

1:01:59

of here but. What had was so great

1:02:01

about his. In the other scenes where you're paying

1:02:03

attention to other things going on, the dialogue, the

1:02:05

chemistry, Maybe. Just ask yourself what's

1:02:07

the costume also doing here because her soft

1:02:09

deserves that sort of attention. South will hopefully

1:02:12

touch on that. I'm sure Some other things

1:02:14

we would love to have you stick around

1:02:16

and Dutch join us will have some fun.

1:02:18

Enjoy Roman holiday. That

1:02:26

mans visit know. It's

1:02:28

not really for the full in a. Certain

1:02:31

age. Of

1:02:36

research the grounds every so often

1:02:38

that. Will

1:03:07

thanks for sticking around. Everyone in

1:03:09

it seems like everyone enjoyed the

1:03:12

movie. certainly area he got. Three

1:03:15

people with various states of scribbles on

1:03:17

T V thing see how we navigate

1:03:19

oldest. That's why I brought my computer

1:03:21

to have some backup, but I think

1:03:23

they're They're few places we could start

1:03:25

this conversation. I think where to start

1:03:27

by asking Michael. Does. Your

1:03:30

highness believes the Federation would be a

1:03:32

possible solution to Europe's economic problems. Let

1:03:34

me check my notes here. All

1:03:37

my know say is get the hell the

1:03:39

Rom as soon as he turns out exactly

1:03:41

right and we would with so the three

1:03:43

of us going on have asthma like a

1:03:46

a steroids every other month I work or

1:03:48

maybe ride together. I'm I'm hoping that's what

1:03:50

you're all going to be picks read as

1:03:52

we are very seriously the three of us

1:03:54

on of us about what our next music

1:03:56

boxes that that's how we're coming for sure

1:03:58

So just very brief background. The And

1:04:00

it. We've been doing a William Wyler

1:04:02

marathon. We do marathons on film spotting,

1:04:04

mainly to fill in cinematic blind spots,

1:04:06

and in this case there were six

1:04:08

films just you had seen. The best

1:04:11

years of our lives. And.

1:04:13

Roman Holiday. I had only seen Roman

1:04:15

Holiday, so we started with Dogs Worth

1:04:17

for making Thirty six than went to

1:04:19

Best Years Forty Six, Jump back a

1:04:21

little bit to Mrs. May Never, nineteen,

1:04:24

Forty two than Forward and Eighteen Fifty

1:04:26

Nine and Ben Hur Funny Girl was

1:04:28

our last film in the marathon nineteen

1:04:30

Sixty Eight, Barbra Streisand of course. And

1:04:32

and now all culminating with Roman Holiday.

1:04:34

And you know there, there's some Wyler

1:04:37

touches are some different elements that we

1:04:39

can touch on the we've we've learned

1:04:41

about him as a filmmaker and. A

1:04:43

minute a minute. This list a few

1:04:45

of them and we'll see where you

1:04:48

guys want to start. So far we've

1:04:50

seen a lot of great opening scenes.

1:04:52

We see a filmmaker, a director who

1:04:54

really understands how to block a scene

1:04:57

and as I like to call it

1:04:59

does, He has the business. There's lots

1:05:01

of business or business going on in

1:05:03

scenes. It's never just about the thing

1:05:06

that's ostensibly happening in the same lot

1:05:08

of be focused cinematography here as Bosom

1:05:10

the other films, you seem less about

1:05:13

interiors. And more force about exteriors

1:05:15

and showcasing rome mirror shots. We

1:05:17

get a couple at least notable

1:05:19

shots here. And. Then you

1:05:22

know. Great female performances and

1:05:24

we may be. The only good

1:05:26

thing about going out of order

1:05:28

is we've been able to finish

1:05:30

this marathon with to just Titanic.

1:05:32

lead performances at Star Making Turns

1:05:34

Barbra Streisand in Funny Girl. And

1:05:37

Audrey Hepburn in her first Hollywood

1:05:39

film. So. With all

1:05:41

of that any of those stand out to you. Michael

1:05:43

Josh Where you want to go in think about

1:05:45

Roman Holiday. I mean just. Been.

1:05:47

Here and seen this with that ensues. Yeah,

1:05:49

stick audience. I think we have to start

1:05:52

with talking about the women of Wyler. I

1:05:54

think that is one of his greatest strengths

1:05:56

are it's not ban in every movie we've

1:05:58

covered. Ban her Would. The most obvious

1:06:00

example but yeah when you talk about

1:06:03

drug are saying in Mrs. Men of

1:06:05

her power in performance The first time

1:06:07

I got to really see her on

1:06:09

screen and as you said, Barbara Streisand

1:06:11

and now can you imagine what it

1:06:13

would have been like. To encounter

1:06:16

Audrey Hepburn an Odd in Ninety Fifty

1:06:18

Three in this role And the way

1:06:20

Wyler knows not just how to frame

1:06:22

them, but when to step back and

1:06:25

get out of the way. And I

1:06:27

think that's crucial here there is the

1:06:29

business. As you said that first meeting

1:06:32

in Jos apartment. There's so much of

1:06:34

that and it's delightful and exactly where

1:06:36

the camera is and how is gonna

1:06:38

play. sees each of them and how

1:06:41

they interact is crucial. But there's so

1:06:43

many moments where here where he recognizes.

1:06:45

As he did with Grew Garson.

1:06:47

as you do with Barbara Streisand

1:06:49

is, I have an incredible talent

1:06:51

here who doesn't really need to

1:06:53

be at all. So why interfere

1:06:55

with that and to see Hepburn

1:06:57

just. The. Quality she has

1:06:59

every time I will. I watch this

1:07:02

and really and anything of hers is

1:07:04

that there's that regal nature that people

1:07:06

talk about at first, but she wears

1:07:08

it so lightly and that's that taxed

1:07:10

on the screen of this story. She

1:07:13

wears it lightly. She sheds it. But.

1:07:16

Then somehow retains just enough of

1:07:18

is so we still sort of

1:07:20

see the princess underneath. It's not

1:07:22

the snake. Grand. Transformation story

1:07:24

really. And then the one scene of

1:07:26

Out What You Got Real. Quickly.

1:07:28

Hear about the one seen that this jumped

1:07:31

out for me? Watch this. three watch is

1:07:33

when they're in the big Brouhaha on the

1:07:35

barge. That and barge He and I joe

1:07:37

falls in the water. She. Decides

1:07:39

to jump in. That shutting the princess right

1:07:41

that's like that could be this transformational moment.

1:07:44

I'm to become an everyday woman here but

1:07:46

what does she do? She holds her, knows

1:07:48

who suffer that like the princess is still

1:07:50

sort of s and I think Hubbard had

1:07:53

that in every role. Where she knew what

1:07:55

we were drawn to was the regal miss

1:07:57

but she also knew that if at all

1:07:59

she gave she be added distance so she

1:08:01

came close enough but not. Too.

1:08:03

Close to be normal. Real? I think

1:08:06

a real. Lucky. Break was

1:08:08

to have Hepburn's first Hollywood picture

1:08:10

to she didn't work in In

1:08:12

in the in the ducks language

1:08:15

job in Them in Holland. And

1:08:17

and done a couple of minor minor

1:08:19

roles in some British films, but this

1:08:21

was a big this was the big

1:08:24

debut and in the world's eyes would

1:08:26

say and I'm. I. Think to

1:08:28

have a director who. Really

1:08:31

honestly wasn't a comedy made it. didn't

1:08:33

have a lot of comedies in his

1:08:35

resume. didn't make com A. He is

1:08:37

not a guy who wanted to turn

1:08:39

scenes that with almost any other director

1:08:41

would have been played out and stays

1:08:43

and and edited and kind of emphasized

1:08:46

in a much different ways such as

1:08:48

that seen on the Barge. I mean

1:08:50

this. This was originally. Going. To

1:08:52

be a Frank Capra picture and

1:08:54

camera was kind of not in

1:08:56

that nearly was on his been

1:08:58

the downs word slide observers career.

1:09:02

And Capra backed out when he

1:09:04

found out the script he was

1:09:06

reading, which he was actually pretty

1:09:08

enthused about was not written by

1:09:10

he and Mclellan Hunter, but Dalton

1:09:12

Trumbo, the man that Hunter was

1:09:14

fronting for Trumbo, was blacklisted so

1:09:16

he couldn't receive rare. Well, that

1:09:18

was enough for capital. Back out.

1:09:21

I wanna do it. Really?

1:09:24

Really, while welcome in her do it's okay for. The

1:09:28

result casting was originally of

1:09:30

everybody one Cary Grant and

1:09:33

Or and either Elizabeth Taylor.

1:09:36

Or. Gene Simmons. There

1:09:39

may be that would work fine. I

1:09:41

don't know if I really want to

1:09:43

see anybody else other than Gregory Peck

1:09:46

and know, especially Audrey Hepburn in this

1:09:48

Madame. It's not it's it's a kind

1:09:50

of work He get that. By

1:09:53

somebody who doesn't one it. Could.

1:09:55

Prove himself in comedy, occurs,

1:09:58

is kind of. It's got

1:10:00

a wonderful. Breeding.

1:10:02

Of moods and everything And I just

1:10:04

heavens but seen a romantic comedy real

1:10:06

actually have an emotional investment people in

1:10:08

a long time. I mean. Did.

1:10:11

That that's That's what really gets me

1:10:13

this day. Of the comedies always about

1:10:15

supporting the characters in the journey, and

1:10:17

maybe we can talk a little bit

1:10:19

about that. This isn't a huge journey,

1:10:22

and it takes place with these characters

1:10:24

over the course of course, forty eight

1:10:26

hours or so, and yet it's It's

1:10:28

perfectly appropriate for this film. and real

1:10:30

quick. You mentioned Dalton Trumbo when. She.

1:10:32

Recites at home when he thinks he's drunk.

1:10:34

you know, I was an English major. I

1:10:36

thought, can I place this? What's this? Do

1:10:38

I know this moment? The Gates, Keats or

1:10:41

Sell He may be like they reference he

1:10:43

A short time later at least what I

1:10:45

saw online Exactly. totally made up by Dalton

1:10:47

Trumbo that the that home see this. He

1:10:49

recites their butts, you're you're So right. Just.

1:10:52

When you're talking about getting out of the

1:10:54

way and at the same time, this is

1:10:56

the mark. I think of a really incredible

1:10:59

director. He knows when to not interfere and

1:11:01

he also knows exactly when to elevate a

1:11:03

scene. and that's in particular what he does.

1:11:05

I think with closets and the so it's

1:11:07

is this. The close up was invented for

1:11:09

Audrey Hepburn after watching Roman Holiday, especially on

1:11:11

this screen. It's not a case where any

1:11:13

other director is just sort of you know,

1:11:15

mechanically going through the motions of with sharp

1:11:18

applied shot and then we'll go in for

1:11:20

a medium shot and then we'll get the

1:11:22

over. The shoulder who get the closeups know

1:11:24

every close up in this film. Is

1:11:26

intentionally their an emotional be to every one

1:11:29

of the series of four or six back

1:11:31

and forth into the for the goodbye kiss

1:11:33

and the car when there was just like

1:11:35

yeah, That's the kind of Hollywood craft and

1:11:37

instinct of how to. How

1:11:40

do we get behind in the

1:11:42

eyes of what's happening here And

1:11:44

I think Gregory Peck to me

1:11:46

is always been in a wonderful

1:11:48

some things and pretty good and

1:11:51

authors and and I think you

1:11:53

can watch him become have a

1:11:55

higher grade of actor. Just simply

1:11:57

trying to. You.

1:12:00

He can't help of respond I think

1:12:02

intuitively to this is the kind of

1:12:04

magically right. New. Performance scene and

1:12:06

you know he. I. Mean, they talk

1:12:08

about the shooter was not an easy shooter. They

1:12:10

really were were doing a lot of nights. Three

1:12:13

of the midnight or whatever shifts in there was

1:12:15

sixteen hour days and. They rock and

1:12:17

a stumbling around. eerie writing this thing on

1:12:19

the fly. The ending had like three different

1:12:21

the the ending to me the last ten

1:12:24

minutes seems just perfect. It seems perfect Yes

1:12:26

and and what what they would do today

1:12:28

you you are referencing you know current from

1:12:31

Into Comedy's Those Voters would be published, the

1:12:33

story would run, we would get another forty

1:12:35

minutes and they would have to overcome that

1:12:37

right? And and that would that would be

1:12:40

Brutal Dead be brutal a sit through and

1:12:42

this is just it's he made the right

1:12:44

choice. Yeah. He did the good

1:12:46

thing and that was okay. That was enough. There

1:12:48

was enough drama, right? Yeah, that are we. That

1:12:50

is where where I was going to in terms

1:12:52

of the art, like I'm always talking about the

1:12:55

need for steaks, I love the low stakes of

1:12:57

the still over the course of this. Movie.

1:12:59

The period we see play out. The. Ark

1:13:01

is that. He's. Either know like this

1:13:04

irascible irredeemable characters he just becomes a

1:13:06

little less selfish and individualistic and she

1:13:08

becomes a little less self, less and

1:13:10

more individualistic and assert as a neat

1:13:12

the only sort of meet somewhere in

1:13:15

the middle and metal this what I

1:13:17

was who is having. It.

1:13:19

So hard to make decency sexy

1:13:21

and interesting of rice and our

1:13:24

I South Bay or something for

1:13:26

yourself. A success of and I've

1:13:28

been trying I I I think

1:13:30

honestly hollywood a sort of given

1:13:32

up on that. Yeah, those instincts

1:13:34

last generation or two you get

1:13:37

through some rare exceptions but but

1:13:39

that you, that's that's a quality

1:13:41

that is coming out in the

1:13:43

writing where everybody makes sort of

1:13:45

a choice that the the makes

1:13:47

it feel like they're working. Toward

1:13:50

their bitter and snacks. and it's again. This

1:13:52

all sounds like it's earnest and kind of

1:13:54

a drag. But but what? This film is

1:13:56

very carefully. Pace. And

1:13:58

sir a new Us and. I gotta

1:14:01

be of one phrase. okay, neo realism or

1:14:03

at this at the time. In

1:14:05

Italy? yet? Films

1:14:07

like a derogatory have to Seek

1:14:10

his Bicycle Thieves says that he

1:14:12

forty six or seven I think

1:14:14

of and and when Wyler was

1:14:16

on Sat in Rome. And

1:14:19

he took his time. He was known as I

1:14:21

didn't but in most I look up with Ninety

1:14:23

Nine. Take Willie. Now

1:14:25

is the phrase or on high what is

1:14:27

that guy didn't let it go. I'm a

1:14:29

he'd put he is. Movies cost more than

1:14:31

they should have every time by those standards

1:14:33

because he just said no more of them

1:14:35

are know too much from. Over.

1:14:38

Over over and done. he didn't love

1:14:40

some of the script, it just seemed

1:14:43

a little fraudulent. Here we are in

1:14:45

Rome shooting. I love the locations. everybody's

1:14:47

kind of in of really really responding

1:14:49

so well as access to A but

1:14:52

he thought a lot of the writing

1:14:54

starting to sound more and more backlot

1:14:56

Hollywood's of the more they were enron

1:14:58

so Wyler hires Suso check a dummy

1:15:01

go in annual slay on who call

1:15:03

wrote bicycle thieves. To kind

1:15:05

of authenticate semitism to a little bit

1:15:07

of the language here and there were

1:15:09

so okay. So I don't think of

1:15:11

neo realism italian the arisen when I

1:15:13

think of Roman Holiday, but I think.

1:15:16

There's. Something about the way it looks because

1:15:18

they didn't have the money. the shooter in

1:15:20

Coleraine. I. Can ask you what this

1:15:22

movie would be like? What I thought? You're a toll

1:15:24

on it all on any other way I you know

1:15:26

of. The the

1:15:29

something that brings you right answer

1:15:31

kind of this actually happening? This

1:15:33

is happening in it's black and

1:15:35

I think somehow. Heat

1:15:38

Wyler and those actors

1:15:40

are discovering. Of

1:15:43

kind of a once in a

1:15:45

generation example of. Emotional

1:15:48

neo realism inside, a kind of a

1:15:50

hollywood sorry tale. And enough and and

1:15:52

it's and it came and went and

1:15:54

we didn't ever get another one like

1:15:56

it in the it's it's it's it's

1:15:59

it's amazing. one of those films where all the,

1:16:02

you know, all the rewrites, all of this, all

1:16:04

of that, really

1:16:06

kind of ended up making it seem as effortless

1:16:08

as Audrey Hepburn is. I think those

1:16:10

street scenes definitely have a hint of neorealism, especially

1:16:12

when they are on the scooter and going, you

1:16:14

know, around Rome. Another bit

1:16:17

of historical context that just reading up ahead

1:16:19

of time before today, I didn't realize till

1:16:21

now, but I think is interesting is that

1:16:23

53, 1953, that's the year Queen Elizabeth II

1:16:25

had her coronation. So thinking

1:16:31

about this character, Hepburn's character, Princess

1:16:33

Anne, and how she was sort of the,

1:16:36

had to have been, I would imagine, an avatar

1:16:39

for the audience, realizing that there are

1:16:41

these real world princesses stepping into

1:16:43

these roles. We're seeing the newsreel

1:16:46

footage. Here's a chance to somewhat

1:16:49

see them behind the scenes. I mean, like I've

1:16:51

talked about on the show, watched

1:16:53

with Debbie the entire series, The Crown on

1:16:55

Netflix, and it's getting into some of this

1:16:57

same stuff. And there was a line in

1:16:59

here that I'd never caught before. The

1:17:02

photographer says, at the end, it's always open

1:17:04

season on princesses. And

1:17:06

that hits very differently, you know, when you

1:17:08

think about the history that would go on

1:17:10

to take place with British royalty in particular.

1:17:13

But yeah, to think about, again, what it

1:17:15

must have been like to see this movie

1:17:17

in the same year that there was that

1:17:19

historical momentous transfer of royal power

1:17:21

in England, and then Hepburn kind of step in

1:17:23

and say, it's that openness she brings, I think

1:17:25

is like, I'm gonna give you a peek behind

1:17:28

the curtain. It's not really that curtain, but you

1:17:30

can pretend it is while watching this movie. That's

1:17:32

another bit of symmetry and

1:17:34

misdirection, I suppose, with the characters a little

1:17:36

bit. She embraces her duty at

1:17:38

the end. And he sort of

1:17:40

advocates his duty a little bit, if you want to

1:17:42

argue that his duty as a

1:17:44

newspaperman is to get the story and to publish

1:17:47

the story. And he has it. It's the biggest

1:17:49

story in the world if he publishes it. And

1:17:51

instead, he resigns himself to not doing that. But

1:17:53

you mentioned the pacing and watching it. It's such

1:17:56

a blatantly comedic film. There's no doubt about it.

1:17:58

There are gags. throughout

1:18:00

and yet it has such a nonchalance to

1:18:02

it. And I think it's

1:18:04

appropriate for this film called Roman Holiday

1:18:07

where so much of it is about

1:18:09

just this idea almost like

1:18:11

you're on vacation with these characters a little

1:18:13

bit. Going through the city, taking pictures even

1:18:16

if she's unaware. It's so

1:18:18

much about the pleasure of him

1:18:20

kind of watching her even if he's thinking about the story and

1:18:22

the money he's gonna get. Him watching

1:18:24

her and us living through him as

1:18:26

well watching her. And 1953, so

1:18:29

this is post-war first American

1:18:31

film shot completely in Italy. And I

1:18:33

like that it includes that title card

1:18:35

at the beginning that even says. It's

1:18:38

like the director here, the filmmakers wanted

1:18:40

everyone in the audience to be really

1:18:42

aware that this is an event. That

1:18:44

you're watching this film that

1:18:47

was shot completely on location. None

1:18:49

of this sound stage stuff. You're gonna

1:18:51

get transported to Rome along with these

1:18:53

characters. Yeah, that's right. It

1:18:56

just doesn't have that, I

1:18:59

really appreciate the more I see it how

1:19:01

it doesn't, this basic plot line

1:19:03

which we've seen before and we've, God knows

1:19:05

we've seen it since. Where scenes

1:19:07

that could have been much more of a kind

1:19:10

of a cheap shot, a

1:19:12

lot of humiliation usually at the female

1:19:14

character and at the center, at

1:19:16

the butt of it. And somehow

1:19:18

you never quite get that sour

1:19:20

feeling in your mouth about how,

1:19:22

I mean look, the guy's grossly

1:19:24

manipulative, you know. Gregory Peck and

1:19:28

you can tell, I think one of the early writers on

1:19:30

this was Ben Hecht. I mean, anytime there was a newspaper

1:19:32

movie and it was in a little bit of trouble script

1:19:34

wise, it was like, call Ben, you know. And

1:19:37

then they used a little bit of it. But none

1:19:40

of the mechanics like you mentioned, it

1:19:42

just doesn't have that sort of

1:19:44

grinding, plot heavy feeling. And yeah,

1:19:46

the open air, the legitimate open

1:19:48

air atmosphere really does, it probably

1:19:51

would have got by and had been a hit, had

1:19:54

it been filmed, about as

1:19:56

far east as Culver City or something.

1:20:00

I mean it didn't kill American in Paris

1:20:02

two years earlier that they didn't get anywhere

1:20:04

near France for that But

1:20:06

again, I just don't see that It's

1:20:09

just a product of its time in the most

1:20:12

wonderful way and and I think Hepburn is

1:20:15

the reason We love it.

1:20:17

There's something about her that it's not

1:20:19

it is not a standard movie star

1:20:23

Audience member response at least for me. It's

1:20:25

not it's just somebody who was just all

1:20:28

that all that dance training all this private

1:20:30

grief she went through in the war is

1:20:32

like as a younger woman

1:20:34

and a girl all of it and

1:20:36

the fact that she can just

1:20:39

Take every line and every reaction shot and everything

1:20:41

and just make it seem like it's happening to

1:20:43

me. Wow Hey, let's have some fun you

1:20:46

know and and every and raising the

1:20:48

intelligence the emotional intelligence and the real

1:20:50

intelligence of The character

1:20:52

is written so that we just respect

1:20:54

all these three knuckleheads, you know In

1:20:57

the end and yeah, even Eddie Albert, you know, I

1:20:59

mean Nominated

1:21:01

yeah, I'm not gonna you know Well

1:21:04

at that at that point in 1953 the Red Menace You

1:21:07

know all you needed to do was put a guy in

1:21:09

a beard if he was an American And

1:21:11

you knew he was a commie without even saying

1:21:13

it So, you know, they had a film in

1:21:15

Italy they could not do that weird artist type

1:21:18

playing around with the fishbowl What a great gag

1:21:20

about the the hairstylist though And she notices his

1:21:22

mustache has been shaved and he's going and then

1:21:24

him fixing her hair during the dance I

1:21:27

mean style is so at

1:21:29

the heart of this movie every character's personal

1:21:31

style so I do want to

1:21:34

return to the idea of the costume design and

1:21:36

the use of Fashion in the

1:21:38

film what I noticed this time around

1:21:41

and again, you know He'd have had as we mentioned

1:21:43

at the start costume designer here is I

1:21:45

want to talk about the subtlety of

1:21:47

the costume design because we don't get

1:21:49

that many changes This is this is

1:21:51

a princess transformation movie. It's kind

1:21:53

of going in reverse though Like she's de glamorizing right

1:21:56

is the goal rather than the other way around But

1:21:59

I was watching that neck scarf,

1:22:01

which appears, it seems to me,

1:22:03

if I was tracking it correctly, you know, she's

1:22:05

wearing what she ran away in, which is not

1:22:08

exactly princessy, but it's not exactly, you know, it's

1:22:10

not his pajamas, which she'd really rather be wearing.

1:22:13

But she must have picked this neck scarf

1:22:15

up somewhere on their travels throughout

1:22:17

the day, you know, because it just comes out of

1:22:19

nowhere. And then there's a point where,

1:22:21

I think it's after they jump in the water

1:22:23

again, and she comes out, and it's almost re-fashioned

1:22:25

where it's like a man's tie, because

1:22:27

it's gotten wet, so it's straight down. And you'll

1:22:30

notice also there are moments during that day where

1:22:32

she pops her collar of that blouse. So

1:22:34

there are just these little choices to show

1:22:37

how she's taking control of her

1:22:39

own style. The haircut

1:22:41

obviously is like the dramatic way to do

1:22:43

that, but I liked also these subtle choices

1:22:46

to show that she's making her own choices.

1:22:48

Yeah, you're absolutely right that it's subtle, but

1:22:51

it is a princess transformation movie, and

1:22:53

we get the complete transformation in

1:22:56

the arc of her clothing choices. There's no

1:22:58

doubt about it, right? If you start at

1:23:00

that opening scene where she

1:23:02

is all restricted in that gown,

1:23:04

right? Nothing playful or fun or

1:23:06

casual about it. And then we

1:23:09

get sort of the, I guess,

1:23:11

princess business casual, the skirts and

1:23:13

the buttoned up shirt, but it's

1:23:15

tightly buttoned, right? She's

1:23:18

being very careful about how she's seen. And

1:23:20

then, throughout the day, all

1:23:22

those subtle changes do start to happen.

1:23:24

It becomes looser in every way. The

1:23:27

sleeves around her, not only do they come

1:23:29

up, they become a little poofier, and

1:23:32

she looks completely different, even though she's wearing

1:23:35

effectively the same outfit. She looks completely different by

1:23:37

the end of that day as she is completely

1:23:39

changed. And then I love the choice to go

1:23:41

to that black evening,

1:23:44

nighttime gown. I don't even know when she

1:23:46

goes back and returns to her duty. It's

1:23:48

as if she has now asserted

1:23:51

some more power. It

1:23:54

takes on a bit of seriousness there. And

1:23:56

then we get to that final scene, and it's back

1:23:58

to something that's a little more regal, right? It's a

1:24:00

royal affair, it's a ceremonial

1:24:03

occasion, and yet it feels

1:24:06

a bit like a hybrid costume, doesn't

1:24:08

it, between the more

1:24:10

casual and the buttoned

1:24:12

up one that she's wearing before? Yeah, that's

1:24:14

where you get to the element of costume

1:24:16

design, which is costume performance. It's how she's

1:24:18

wearing it. She's wearing the gown at the

1:24:20

beginning uncomfortably. That's what the whole shoe bit

1:24:22

is about. I like to think the trying

1:24:24

to find a shoe is like her toes.

1:24:26

She's really just trying to find a pair

1:24:28

of pants. I went on to

1:24:30

this thing. I want to be more comfortable. But

1:24:33

yeah, the way she wears that gown at the

1:24:35

end is differently, she's more

1:24:38

assured. Even though it may not be

1:24:40

her choice, she's comfortable

1:24:42

with knowing she knows the power to

1:24:45

make that choice eventually. I've forgotten that she

1:24:48

doesn't just slightly dominate the first 10, 15, 20

1:24:50

minutes. I mean, that's the

1:24:52

movie. Yeah, you don't see him for quite a

1:24:54

while. And the original, I don't know what the

1:24:56

billing with this group, he could just become a

1:24:58

big enough star where he could get a solo

1:25:01

title card before the title of the movie.

1:25:04

And that's how it was. Gregory Peck, Roman

1:25:06

Holiday. Flip, also

1:25:08

starring Audrey Hepburn. And

1:25:10

filming goes along. Peck

1:25:13

sees this movie star day

1:25:15

after day. And

1:25:18

he says, A, she's gonna win the Oscar. B,

1:25:21

I don't wanna look like a jackass. And

1:25:24

B, the guy who, and pretty good for

1:25:26

the time. And so Peck says, and

1:25:28

his agent was like, no, you've earned this billing.

1:25:31

Soloist says, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Gotta

1:25:34

be the two of us. The awareness,

1:25:36

the lack of vanity. Upstanding, upstanding

1:25:39

Gregory Peck. Yeah, and to

1:25:41

go back to the beginning a little bit here, because we've talked

1:25:43

about great opening scenes. And when I started watching

1:25:46

Roman Holiday, I thought, is this newsreel

1:25:49

up there with some of the other beginnings

1:25:51

we've had in this marathon? And maybe not

1:25:53

really. Maybe we wanna count the

1:25:55

next scene with the shoe. As the real first

1:25:57

scene. But if you go back and watch that

1:25:59

newsreel, there's still some technique

1:26:02

being employed where we only ever

1:26:04

see her in those

1:26:06

scenes. She's captive. She's she's stuck in

1:26:08

those scenes where it's only close-ups or

1:26:11

it's medium shots and she's always doing

1:26:13

just that regal wave, that monotonous thing,

1:26:15

ceremonial thing that she has she has

1:26:17

to do. So we actually understand something

1:26:19

about her character even though it's being

1:26:21

juxtaposed with the voiceover that's telling us

1:26:23

how oh she shows no signs of

1:26:26

slowing down. We see it in her

1:26:28

and just the monotony of that and

1:26:30

it isn't until then the movie starts

1:26:32

proper and she's wearing that gown

1:26:34

that she walks out and we see her

1:26:36

in full dress. We get to fully take

1:26:38

in Audrey Hepburn there in that moment and

1:26:40

I actually think Weiler is maybe being a

1:26:42

little cheeky with us during that scene because

1:26:45

it's as if when she's playing

1:26:48

with the shoe Weiler is sort of

1:26:50

saying to us she's literally uncomfortable

1:26:52

in these shoes, the shoes of

1:26:54

being the princess, right? And

1:26:56

it reveals so

1:26:58

much about her

1:27:01

character there. She's not only doing that

1:27:03

she's uncomfortable in her shoes but then

1:27:05

we get the balancing act which

1:27:07

I almost want to read into it as if he's saying

1:27:09

she's trying to balance who she is and what she cares

1:27:11

about and the things she wants to do against

1:27:14

this duty, those great scenes of her

1:27:16

having to stand up on one foot

1:27:18

and maintain that position. That's the little

1:27:20

dance that she's doing throughout that scene

1:27:22

and it's funny at the same time.

1:27:24

And that's William Weiler all the way.

1:27:27

I mean that's somebody who most directors

1:27:29

I would think if they're new to

1:27:31

comedy and maybe slightly privately insecure about

1:27:34

getting the right kind of laughs out

1:27:36

of this project would just

1:27:39

simply work too hard at it and

1:27:43

thank God Weiler's instinct was to

1:27:45

kind of just actually if we

1:27:47

just play it quote for real

1:27:49

unquote even though it's just pure

1:27:51

artifice. I mean he had the

1:27:53

performers. I've

1:27:56

seen Gregory Peck in some romantic comedies where

1:27:58

he is just not. Happy

1:28:00

to be there. Have enemies is okay,

1:28:02

but he's not the is not born

1:28:04

for that stuff and he's not. His

1:28:06

technique isn't right. spaces and rights. Somehow

1:28:09

that five o'clock shadow was shows up

1:28:11

on him about one thirty every day

1:28:13

and have probably ah it's just not.

1:28:15

it's not really his his met yea

1:28:18

right is certainly wasn't Audrey Hepburn's but.

1:28:21

That are you say? Do you think Audrey

1:28:23

Hepburn had the. The

1:28:25

spectacularly the satisfying misfortune of

1:28:27

getting one of her best

1:28:29

projects right away. and than

1:28:32

almost. So. Rarely coming

1:28:34

up with anything is good overall

1:28:36

as this. In. I'm I'm

1:28:38

in dozens of films later, many goods or

1:28:40

services. I don't know. It's hard to say

1:28:42

because there's even something like Breakfast at Tiffany's

1:28:45

has a melancholy in her performance. I feel

1:28:47

like which you don't really get here which

1:28:49

is another layer. I yell, i get it

1:28:51

so I'm in Seattle or that's of that

1:28:53

to Juri and mean it's You know, the

1:28:55

Breakfast at Tiffany's can some ways be expensive,

1:28:57

a tragedy, really. And and I don't think

1:29:00

this is that at all. I don't know.

1:29:02

it's a good question of the think about

1:29:04

it, some or in and certainly not a

1:29:06

complete is done on Hepburn. It is.

1:29:08

It is a standout. Breakthrough.

1:29:11

Performance. Oh it's everything you'd want from

1:29:13

a way to announce yourself in your

1:29:15

particular talents on screen. There's something about

1:29:17

to the you can't control for which

1:29:20

is I think it's passing question Michael

1:29:22

were just the newness. Of

1:29:24

as audiences seen her for the first time

1:29:26

and and experiencing Audrey Hepburn on screen. there's

1:29:28

something that you truly can't ever recreate in

1:29:31

his other films. I think you're you're may

1:29:33

be onto something there and I talked about

1:29:35

the close of them over talking about a

1:29:37

performance. I just i want to single out

1:29:40

one in particular which is that early scene

1:29:42

where she makes the decision to leave to

1:29:44

escape and the the cameras on are not

1:29:46

close up as she's looking out the window

1:29:48

we know that she hears of the in

1:29:51

the. See. That expression of longing

1:29:53

a little bit to maybe be outside of this

1:29:55

room. And then we get

1:29:57

just a little bit of wind. Breeze.

1:30:00

And of course blow or hair a little

1:30:02

bit the mix. It looks a wonderful and

1:30:04

elegant but the way she reacts in that

1:30:06

scene, it's as if the wind. Is.

1:30:08

What made her realize. I. Need

1:30:10

to be out there. You know the wind

1:30:13

itself, something about nature back and her to

1:30:15

be out there and you see the light

1:30:17

bulb go off. But here again to use

1:30:19

the word that we've all using effortless It.

1:30:21

So there's nothing so we about it. and

1:30:23

yet we see it. We see that moment

1:30:25

exactly when she has be Tiffany, I'm gone

1:30:27

and then you know I wasn't. Think it's

1:30:29

a much about neo realism lawyer though. I

1:30:31

love that connection. Watching this again on the

1:30:33

big screen. How about the fact that Wyler

1:30:35

I think suits that entire. Sequence.

1:30:37

Where she escapes like a prison break. It

1:30:39

really is like nothing else like in the

1:30:41

rest of the film. A yes, it's night

1:30:43

time for their other night time scenes with

1:30:45

don't Look Like That, the use of shadow,

1:30:48

the heavy emphasis on the bars of the

1:30:50

gates, the stairs, everything about it. As she's

1:30:52

getting her, she gets out in the truck

1:30:54

just like we seen in prison Break, but

1:30:56

like everything above it is if she is

1:30:58

confined and even when she has to go

1:31:00

back and are sitting in the car she's

1:31:02

looking and and we cut to the gate

1:31:04

it feels like she's going back to jail

1:31:06

and nothing. yeah, like. The shot when she's

1:31:08

when she leaves and she's in the back

1:31:10

of the truck, a point away from those

1:31:12

gates and and showing that there's like just

1:31:14

a little sense of danger there for her

1:31:16

even though she's incredibly enthusiastic in that moment.

1:31:18

to sort of opposite of what while do

1:31:20

they are you know, is that funny girl

1:31:23

in the marathon but with with funny Girl

1:31:25

Wyler. Of the again for a

1:31:27

little out of his element in that animal

1:31:29

feed ever done missing of like a footman

1:31:31

like a musical before a butcher. Ah. Elixir

1:31:34

with oh that's a matter

1:31:36

of. I. Think

1:31:38

working with somebody who is already

1:31:40

a legend for the role Streisand

1:31:42

is fairly bryce. How to? How

1:31:45

do we not just make it

1:31:47

one of those movies where we're

1:31:49

We're we're. Putting. The

1:31:51

famous performance in Amber Finland filming It's

1:31:53

About It He did it, He did

1:31:56

a theory found ways to have it.

1:31:58

Adam of It's A Great. Musical, but

1:32:00

it's a good one. End but

1:32:02

with what he did was Streisand is was

1:32:05

was not the same. almost quite the opposite

1:32:07

thing a what was going on when you

1:32:09

have somebody brand new. Routes

1:32:12

A brand new to a two hour in How

1:32:14

do you fill out this movie And and really,

1:32:16

it's closer to what Wyler was doing with. Laurence.

1:32:19

Olivier and Wuthering Heights of

1:32:21

Invite Apparently Olivier was. Just.

1:32:24

Nervous about being on your head on

1:32:26

a lot of so my them but

1:32:28

never really successfully all through the thirties

1:32:31

medium success but the a very stagey

1:32:33

technical Eleven and Wyler he never could

1:32:35

find the words to talk to actors

1:32:37

essentially more than other rather directors and

1:32:39

eventually dismissed the way it is quite

1:32:41

Quit trying to reach the third balcony

1:32:43

and the Manchester Opera house and it's

1:32:45

scared of mean Olivier any and he

1:32:47

said that was the moment. Bolivia said

1:32:49

later, that's where I became of. An

1:32:51

actor I know that had a figure out

1:32:54

how to scale it for the camera. And.

1:32:56

The mean, I don't. I don't think

1:32:58

that was necessarily Hepburn's issues of i

1:33:01

think Heifers issues really more about. I

1:33:04

don't actually own thing she him it as good

1:33:06

as far as where you going we I don't

1:33:08

know how does that. She had a damn man.

1:33:10

There was one scene they talked about remember where

1:33:12

it where he sees it was they had been

1:33:14

filming filming for mean the I laid and she

1:33:16

had to break down and cry and she was

1:33:19

so tired and over been exhausted that she couldn't.

1:33:21

And he powered adder. It's in the

1:33:23

way that nobody you know they'll be

1:33:25

whatever think twice about back then and

1:33:28

it worked and she burst into real

1:33:30

tears. Whopping. Screen that on sad and

1:33:32

and you know they. they filmed the

1:33:34

quickly and then they got him nuts.

1:33:36

are dynamic during a long time pretty

1:33:38

much after two hours or gets rough.

1:33:41

I'm a graduate. Your musical Their Michael

1:33:43

because I was thinking. oh

1:33:45

my gosh has a d v even states

1:33:47

hate us cuz they make musicals out of every

1:33:49

movie that's ever existed there might already be a

1:33:51

roman holiday musical version on broadway i don't

1:33:53

know what you could see that especially in

1:33:55

the scene with a staircase outside of shows apartment

1:33:58

when they first get back there and

1:34:00

the little bit, the gag about her going

1:34:02

up the stairs. Another bit of business. They

1:34:04

don't just walk up, right? And

1:34:07

that's just a lovely two and

1:34:09

a half minutes of no dialogue,

1:34:11

and that could easily have been

1:34:13

a musical number in a wonderful

1:34:16

way. And you've mentioned her ballet

1:34:18

background, and we've seen,

1:34:20

it's sort of our Stanley Dunne

1:34:22

and musical funny face, with Fred Astaire

1:34:25

and bringing out some of those qualities too. So

1:34:28

yeah, at that moment I thought, this could

1:34:30

be a really great musical, and then I

1:34:33

hope that never happens. Yeah, we're

1:34:35

talking about Weiler, not only because it's

1:34:37

a great film and it's wonderfully directed, and we're doing

1:34:39

a Weiler marathon, but I think you could almost watch

1:34:42

this film and pay so much

1:34:44

attention to the performances and the great story and the

1:34:46

great script, and kind of think

1:34:48

it's invisibly directed. And yet it's not. I

1:34:50

think it's effectively- That's kind of one of

1:34:52

his skills. Exactly, that's it. Having

1:34:55

these rhetorical, directorial touches,

1:34:57

getting his fingerprints on it, but

1:34:59

without it ever dominating the

1:35:01

work, or overcompensating for anything

1:35:03

else that we see. And one of those

1:35:05

moments that you just think, who

1:35:08

would do this? How about our introduction to Jo?

1:35:11

And even that moment where she's walking along the

1:35:13

street, she's escaped, and she

1:35:15

walks through someone's carriage. Right?

1:35:18

Which is lovely. And then she kind of gets

1:35:20

tangled up with the balloon guy, and then the

1:35:23

balloons draw her eyes up to the window of

1:35:25

the room that he's playing. That's fantastic. Right? Yeah.

1:35:28

That's like something out of a musical, absolutely,

1:35:30

as well. And just the symmetry of the

1:35:33

film opening with the

1:35:36

handshake procession, except in that case, she's

1:35:39

stuck, she's stilted, she's miserable,

1:35:41

she doesn't really wanna meet these

1:35:43

people. For us as an audience,

1:35:45

there's no suspense to it. It's

1:35:48

droning on just like it is for her. And

1:35:51

then at the end, it's completely reversed.

1:35:53

She's now in control. She's

1:35:55

the one initiating the shaking

1:35:57

of hands. And It's taking a while.

1:36:00

They'll just like it takes he's down at

1:36:02

the end only this time. We're.

1:36:04

Like a bursting with anticipation is every order

1:36:06

to get That is it as it Maybe

1:36:09

this is the feeling of being in control

1:36:11

of in or in the hands of the

1:36:13

director in a movie. the just knows what

1:36:15

it's doing, your own terms of pacing and

1:36:18

rhythm you you don't feel like hurry up

1:36:20

hurry of I didn't you know Yeah I

1:36:22

also in so many little things I'd completely

1:36:24

forgotten about of a get incredibly realistic romer

1:36:27

where where a pack is trying to open

1:36:29

the door and is sort of does that

1:36:31

till forward. just have to to do the

1:36:33

science. Tests and whether or not you know

1:36:35

the via the princess read like either follow

1:36:37

without are ya or whatever Lucky no sugar

1:36:40

and that it's it's it's twelve seconds said

1:36:42

he just never would see it in a

1:36:44

typical movie of them who the Earth For

1:36:46

any rub him he had gone back to

1:36:48

help perfectly. This ends and that senior talking

1:36:50

about Adam which is you know you're right

1:36:52

Is it the book ending of the handshaking

1:36:54

of the journalists are the people coming to

1:36:56

meet her? the camera pulling down the road

1:36:59

so we know it's gonna s. Blame.

1:37:01

Joe into the frame at some points

1:37:03

and I think every one of us

1:37:05

wants the camera to pull past him.

1:37:07

she says has or interaction with him

1:37:10

goes onto the next guy. And.

1:37:12

Everything in my been once the camera to

1:37:14

then. Right? And

1:37:16

she decides I'm and attacks. I

1:37:20

passed him were done when I can see

1:37:22

each other gotten him and then the standard

1:37:25

romantic comedy would probably say steaks a deep

1:37:27