0:00

Welcome to Food Psych, a podcast dedicated

0:02

to critiquing diet and wellness culture and

0:04

answering your questions about intuitive eating and

0:06

the anti-diet approach. I'm your

0:09

host, Kristi Harrison, and I'm a

0:11

registered dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor,

0:13

journalist and author of the books

0:16

Anti-Diet, The Wellness Trap and the

0:18

new Emotional Eating, Chronic Dieting, Binge

0:20

Eating and Body Image workbook, which

0:23

are all available wherever you get

0:25

your books or at kristiharison.com/books. That's

0:27

kristiharison.com/books. And by the way,

0:29

on this show, we avoid diet culture details

0:31

like weight and calorie numbers, but we don't

0:34

censor swear words or other adult language. So

0:36

listener discretion is advised. Hey

1:04

there, welcome to this episode of Food Psych.

1:07

I'm Kristi, and today I'm talking with

1:09

dietitian and author Heidi Schuster for her

1:11

third appearance on the pod, all

1:13

about kids and helping them develop a

1:15

peaceful relationship with food. We

1:18

talk about why putting kids on gluten

1:20

free diets or other elimination diets in

1:22

the name of health often backfires, how

1:25

parents can help kids develop a good

1:27

relationship with all foods, including demonized ones

1:29

like sugar, developmentally appropriate

1:31

ways to talk to kids about

1:33

nutrition, which hint are very limited.

1:36

Why pleasure is actually more important than

1:38

nutrition and so much more. This

1:41

was a great conversation and I can't wait to share it

1:43

with you. First, I want to

1:45

let you know about a couple of resources

1:47

that you might find helpful if you're listening

1:49

to this podcast, one of which is my

1:51

new book, The Emotional Eating, Chronic Dieting, Binge

1:54

Eating and Body Image workbook, which I co-authored

1:56

with therapists Judith Matts and Amy Pershing, who

1:58

are longtime friends of the pod. as

2:00

well as leaders in the field of

2:02

diet culture recovery, binge eating disorder, and

2:05

trauma-informed care. I'm so honored

2:07

to work with them and we joined forces

2:09

to create this workbook because we

2:11

wanted to help readers break free

2:13

from the diet binge or restrict

2:15

rebound cycle, recognize sneaky diets disguised

2:17

as wellness plans, better understand

2:20

the role food plays in your life

2:22

and in managing emotions, unlearn

2:24

the harmful messages about what and when

2:26

you're quote-unquote supposed to eat, dispel myths

2:28

about weight, health, and fitness, and so

2:30

much more. If any of

2:32

that sounds interesting to you, you can learn

2:35

more and buy the book at christyharrison.com/workbook or

2:37

click the link in the show notes. I

2:40

also wanted to let you know that Intuitive

2:43

Eating Fundamentals, which is the online course I

2:45

created and launched way back in 2016 to

2:47

help you make peace with food, is now

2:49

open for enrollment. The course

2:51

teaches you how to recognize and reject

2:54

diet culture, take pleasure in food, and

2:56

stop fighting your desires, tune back into

2:58

your body's signals of hunger and fullness,

3:01

end the restrict rebound cycle, navigate

3:03

emotional eating and learn new coping

3:06

skills, and most importantly perhaps, avoid

3:08

turning intuitive eating into a sneaky diet.

3:12

Sign up for instant access to hundreds of

3:14

hours of supportive content, including 13 modules on

3:17

the principles of intuitive eating, deep dives into

3:19

how to handle common things that come up

3:21

when you're trying to make peace with food,

3:23

and a live monthly Q&A to help answer

3:25

all your questions. This cohort

3:27

also includes a special members-only forum to

3:29

help you connect with others and support

3:31

each other through the course, and alumni

3:33

get free access to future forums as

3:36

well. You can learn more

3:38

and sign up at christyharrison.com/course

3:40

or just click the link in the show notes. Now

3:43

without any further ado, here's my conversation

3:45

with Heidi Schuster. Heidi,

3:48

welcome back to Food Psych. I'm so excited to

3:50

talk with you today. I'm so excited to be

3:52

here, Kristy. Thanks for having me yet again. Thanks

3:55

For coming back yet again. We Last spoke

3:57

in 2018, which was six years ago as

3:59

we're. The recording us for your

4:01

first but Norris so can you

4:04

put us up on everything. You

4:06

been up to Sun Sun almost

4:08

times you as synopsis as assistant

4:10

Busy as always with my practice

4:13

and a did some training and

4:15

semantic experiencing since Sun which has

4:17

been really mind blowing for my

4:20

practice and I have been working

4:22

on this. Second, Book

4:24

which just came. Out in

4:26

January of this year, so it's been

4:28

a busy time. Job.

4:30

For clauses are always quite hectic and

4:33

now. So. Tell us about this book

4:35

is called Nurture. How to raise kids who

4:37

law suit their bodies and themselves. What

4:39

inspired you to write this: Lots

4:41

of things. While I have two

4:43

daughters myself who are somewhat featured

4:45

in the book and luckily they

4:48

are adults at this point and

4:50

able to give permission for all

4:52

of their stories to be in

4:54

Prince and I'm grateful for that.

4:56

So as a parent I have

4:58

been obviously really interested in. You

5:01

know how to prevent more problems

5:03

with eating and body image in

5:05

the next generation. And then

5:07

as a provider as a clinician

5:09

I had so many. People approached

5:11

me after reading my first, but.

5:14

And. Say. I wish that

5:16

I had this information when my kids

5:18

were younger, or I wish that my

5:21

parents had this information. And.

5:23

In, I've been encouraged to try to

5:25

write something for parents and caregivers. From.

5:28

That perspective. Both as a parent

5:30

and a clinician. So here I am. That

5:33

was sort of my inspiration. Among.

5:35

Other things. Let's. Get into what

5:37

is included in the bucks for you

5:39

have ten steps. You say? they're not

5:41

necessarily steps, the have to be practice,

5:43

in order or like rigid and anyway.

5:45

but they're kind of ten principles. For

5:47

raising a kid with a positive relationship.

5:49

with food in their body can you just

5:52

give us a quick overview of what the

5:54

steps are so art and you're absolutely right

5:56

christie there is definitely not linear the first

5:58

step is related to letting go of

6:01

dieting for both yourself and your

6:03

children. The second step

6:05

has to do with speaking well

6:08

of bodies, being respectful and

6:10

speaking well of bodies, including

6:12

your own. I say

6:14

your children may look like you someday. Step

6:16

number three is about how

6:18

we provide food for children

6:21

and work on avoiding

6:24

deprivation, which is something

6:26

that I know you've talked about frequently here. Step

6:28

four is related to

6:31

building self-regulation skills in

6:33

young people. Obviously we

6:35

sometimes have to work on them

6:37

ourselves as adults. Step five is

6:40

a little bit more about nutrition,

6:42

but I highlight pleasure

6:44

as actually more important than

6:46

nutrition when we're particularly talking

6:48

about food with young people.

6:51

Step six is about encouraging

6:53

conscious movement for your family.

6:56

I say joyful movement, and

6:58

obviously not everyone has a

7:00

joyful experience of movement in

7:02

their particular body. I

7:04

don't wanna be ableist in the way

7:06

I'm speaking about this, but trying to

7:09

talk about movement and physical

7:11

activity differently with our young

7:14

people. Step seven

7:16

is about social media and

7:18

building community. Step

7:21

eight is about sustaining self-care

7:23

practices and how to cultivate that

7:25

in families. Step

7:27

nine is one of my favorites.

7:29

It's about teaching young people that

7:32

feelings are safe and

7:34

emotions are commonplace and part

7:36

of human experience. And

7:39

then step 10 is a bit

7:41

of a summary step where the

7:43

focus is on whole self and

7:45

embodiment and how to work

7:48

with children. So obviously there are

7:50

not linear steps. There's just sort

7:52

of interconnected steps, and

7:55

they're just things that I have

7:57

found to be useful. in

8:00

the work that I've done with individuals and

8:02

families around cultivating a

8:05

healthy and really nourishing

8:07

relationship with one's body and

8:10

self and food. Mm. Yeah,

8:12

so let's dig into each of those a little better. Won't

8:14

get to all of them, but I have some

8:16

questions about specific steps that I'd love to

8:18

dive into. The first is, why

8:20

is it important for parents to ditch

8:22

dieting for both themselves and their kids?

8:24

And how can parents approach

8:27

that when they're struggling with their own issues

8:29

with food and body? That

8:32

is such an important question. And I

8:34

think I want to say first and foremost that

8:37

I really worked hard as

8:40

I wrote this book to both

8:42

toe the line between having some authority

8:44

around this from my almost 30 years

8:47

in the field and also being a

8:49

parent who has a lot of compassion

8:52

around how hard it is for us

8:54

as parents to actually be the role

8:56

models that we want to be for

8:58

our kids. It's not easy. Even if we

9:00

have lots of knowledge, it's still not always

9:02

easy. So I want to put that out there. But

9:05

yes, I think the most important thing that

9:07

we can do as parents is just keep

9:09

doing our own work to

9:12

take care of ourselves and our bodies

9:14

in the ways that we know to

9:16

be best for us. And

9:19

then we will be setting that standard

9:21

for our kids who are always watching

9:23

us. Sometimes more closely than

9:25

we think they are. So if

9:27

we are dieting, for example, or

9:29

engaging in behavior that's diet

9:32

oriented, children are more

9:34

likely to notice that and

9:37

maybe copy that behavior.

9:39

Or they're also likely to

9:41

be confused because, well,

9:44

for example, if there's a food that

9:46

they absolutely love and it

9:48

feels so good in their bodies to eat it

9:51

and then they hear from a parent, well, that

9:53

food is bad or you shouldn't eat so much

9:56

of it, it can just be really confusing for

9:58

a young mind to wrap themselves. around the

10:00

idea that this food that feels so good

10:02

at my body could be bad for me.

10:04

They're not able to think about it in

10:07

the adult way. So confusion can kind of

10:09

ensue and that's obviously

10:11

difficult. Yeah, and that can lead to

10:13

like disconnection from their body too, right?

10:16

Of disconnecting from what feels

10:18

pleasurable and good to them or

10:20

the feelings of satisfaction that come with eating

10:22

foods they love. Absolutely.

10:25

That's ultimately what we want for

10:27

ourselves is to be in our

10:29

bodies more and make decisions from

10:31

that place. And so the

10:33

way to encourage that in our

10:35

kids is to model that

10:37

easier said than done. Right,

10:40

totally. I mean, I really appreciate

10:42

how you acknowledge your own struggles

10:44

with this throughout the book that

10:46

you are someone who has all

10:48

this expertise as a food and

10:50

nutrition therapist and a long history

10:52

of recovery from your own eating

10:54

disorder. And yet you still had

10:57

moments where you said things or

10:59

did things that your daughters later were like, oh,

11:01

that wasn't so great mom. And you own it

11:03

in the book. And I think that really goes

11:05

a long way toward making this book feel like

11:08

not shaming toward parents. And I think

11:10

that's super important because as a relatively new

11:12

parent myself, I haven't really delved into a

11:14

lot of parenting literature because I know so

11:16

much of it is bogus and is also

11:19

going to like harm my mental health and

11:21

take me away from what I sort of know in

11:24

my core values to be true and how I want to raise

11:26

my daughter. And also like the

11:28

books that I have read or the social

11:30

media stuff that I have come across or

11:32

parenting articles that I've read often do have

11:35

this kind of shaming tone and this feeling

11:37

of like, oh my God, I'm doing it

11:39

wrong. And I think that's just

11:41

like an anathema to so many parents and so

11:43

many parents want to get away from that feeling.

11:46

And I think your book has a nice tone

11:48

that sort of makes it more

11:50

useful actually to parents. I'm

11:52

so happy to hear you say that because that was Definitely

11:55

intentional. I really worked hard on that

11:58

and I had lots of parents. Read

12:00

it to make sure they did feel that way

12:02

is to that with my aim. And

12:04

we're not perfect like, nor. Do our

12:07

children want us to be perfect as? Wow? That's really

12:09

hard to live up to, right? So.

12:11

I think. I was very happy

12:13

to share some on my own foibles

12:16

around these topics because I think we

12:18

all do it. We all may say

12:20

like something disparaging about our bodies for

12:23

instance, or. Do. The thing like

12:25

I did where chase my kids out

12:27

the door with their breakfast and then

12:29

we realized what we. Like. I'm in

12:31

their lane and I'm not really supposed to be

12:33

doing this and I really know better. Like a

12:35

had all this training and tunnel this eating. Disorders.

12:37

Where can I really know I'm not supposed to move over

12:39

into their own. Lane. And I'm still struggling

12:42

with it. And if I can still struggle

12:44

with it, then of course people reading this

12:46

book are likely to be struggling with it

12:48

at times to. And so I hope that

12:50

does make it feel like okay. We're all

12:53

trying to work on the same things here

12:55

and we're all just trying to like be

12:57

a better culture for our kids and we're

12:59

not always gonna get it right one hundred

13:02

percent of the time and it's okay. Yeah.

13:05

I think that so. Hugely important. One story that

13:07

really struck me that I think it's kind

13:09

of like an outlier type of story, but

13:11

I think has some. Something. Instructive

13:13

may be to give is the

13:15

story as. A mom who thought

13:17

she was keeping her billie make behaviors a secret

13:20

but then she overheard. Her daughter talking about

13:22

them to friend and I found her the

13:24

moms response to that. Really moving? Could you

13:26

share a little bit about that story? Yeah.

13:29

My. Client was really surprised

13:31

that for young child knew

13:34

about her purging behaviors like

13:36

was aware because she. She

13:39

didn't see breasts and. When.

13:42

She heard her child. Telling

13:44

someone up my mom also

13:46

eat ice cream and then

13:48

throws up afterwards. She just

13:50

became. So. Moved

13:52

by that. Statement that she

13:54

heard her child say that see.

13:57

The. Very quickly afterwards. When.

14:00

Up to her child and said. Look,

14:02

Mommy has an eating disorder. Mommy

14:04

has a problem with food. And.

14:07

That throwing up that you talked

14:09

about is Not okay. And. It's not

14:12

something that is healthy and. I'm really getting

14:14

help in trying to. Work. On as.

14:16

I want you to know that. And

14:19

she also actually amazingly stopped the behavior

14:21

immediately. It's so interesting that like what

14:23

had she had been working on for

14:25

some time with so much easier to

14:28

halt when she knew that it was

14:30

affecting her child. May. Be her child

14:32

wasn't yet affected by it, but that her child

14:34

was even aware of that. Yeah.

14:36

Because I think we don't realize. Sometimes white kids

14:38

pick up on and. I think one

14:40

of the things I found so powerful that that

14:42

stories said she took responsibility without falling into self

14:44

blame which I think is a hard. Line to

14:46

walk re And that's also the compassion that

14:49

you bring to the story, but it it

14:51

sounds like that was her experiences. Wow. That

14:53

she didn't get stuck in this self

14:55

blame place that made her unable to.

14:58

Move. An active she realized what was

15:00

going on and took responsibility and also

15:02

hi compassion for herself and serious how

15:04

you think parents can walk that line?

15:07

You know if there's anyone listening to has

15:09

an eating disorder or disordered eating and is

15:11

struggling with our also trying to raise a

15:13

kid with her positive relationship with food in

15:15

their body. how can parents. Walk that

15:17

line of taking responsibility and maybe own

15:19

what's going on for them for with

15:21

their kids in at age appropriate way

15:23

while also having self compassion without tumbling

15:25

into south Weapon. Yeah, of

15:28

such a good question. I really think

15:30

that. It's. Probably best

15:32

not to say much about one's.

15:34

Recovery work unless you hear about

15:36

it from your child. In some

15:39

ways, obviously. You. Know your

15:41

work is your work and. The.

15:43

Children don't need to be aware of

15:45

every bit of it. Nor. Should

15:47

they. But. In this

15:50

case, for example, where. The. Young

15:52

person. Really? Saw and

15:54

heard something that was confusing

15:56

for them. Or. Actually,

15:59

they were sort of matter. Fact about it

16:01

because they had heard it multiple times.

16:03

That's when. It's. Appropriate to

16:05

step in and say actually

16:07

this thing that mommy's doing

16:09

is not something that. I

16:11

would encourage you to do. It's

16:14

something that actually is really hard.

16:16

And I'm getting some helpless. And

16:18

then obviously the key is. To your

16:20

good work that you're doing in treatment

16:22

like work on that. If that same

16:24

voice is coming up which I'm. It

16:26

did at time. It's for my client. Get

16:29

support for that. So that you

16:31

are able to create those lessons

16:33

in the moment which your children.

16:36

Yeah. Let's. Talk about

16:38

something is that parents do. For

16:41

their kids sort of in the name of house

16:43

or sinking the there something them that might actually

16:45

be harmful to their relationship with said was I

16:47

think again can bring up so much same and

16:49

self blame and so we need to really. Have

16:51

the spirit of compassion toward those things

16:53

but also kind of know and understand

16:56

are the repercussions. So one saying that

16:58

you talk about in the book his

17:00

parents putting kids on gluten free dairy.

17:02

Free Diets or other elimination diet and the

17:04

name of house Doing it from a well

17:06

intentioned place because they probably seen so much

17:09

media about the supposed problems with these foods

17:11

and. In. Other so much out there

17:13

and diet wellness culture demonizing those kinds of

17:15

foods. And so they want to

17:17

do what's best for their kids. But what actually

17:19

happens when kids get put on these quote unquote

17:21

allergy diet's when they don't actually have genuine food.

17:23

Allergies, And. God you're

17:26

asking this question. It is such a

17:28

delicate question because I don't ever believe

17:30

that a parent. Is trying to

17:32

create a harmful situation? And fact

17:34

that usually when someone is manipulating

17:36

their. Kids eating in any way.

17:39

They're trying to just give them what

17:41

they believed to be healthy and it's

17:43

or them. Said if

17:45

there is no. Life

17:47

threatening or in life limiting

17:49

Have sex from the elimination

17:51

diet that the child can

17:54

recognize then it can be

17:56

really confusing to not be

17:58

able to. Eat what all the other. Kids

18:00

are eating. It's one thing, if you

18:02

know that you get an etsy tongue. Or

18:04

a rash or. There's.

18:07

Some other significant.

18:10

Issue from the food, but

18:12

it's another thing as a

18:14

child doesn't have. That

18:16

kind of outcome When they either it can just

18:18

be really confusing and of course they're going to

18:20

go along. With what their parents says

18:23

is important for them, they'll follow

18:25

that restrictive diet for a while.

18:28

Because the parent is their authority.

18:30

But once the child starts to

18:32

have a little bit more authority

18:34

over their choices, That and I've

18:36

seen the most. Challenges: All

18:38

the sudden the child is going

18:40

over to their friends house more

18:42

and. Those. Foods that had

18:44

been forbidden. For a while

18:46

are now more accessible. To

18:48

them and they often have a lot

18:50

of charge. Around those foods and

18:53

then can't manage them. when they're

18:55

out in social settings. Or maybe they

18:57

make a decision as a family like

18:59

the example that I had in my

19:01

book to. Let go of that.

19:04

Way of eating and they bring

19:06

the glutenin, dairy or whatever it

19:08

is that's and eliminated back. It

19:11

can be just really hard for

19:13

that young person to manage the

19:15

emotional sort of attachment. To those foods

19:17

that they haven't sad and so. Long. And

19:20

obviously it can be written out

19:22

and worked on. But. The

19:24

reality is that they can actually create

19:27

a more challenging relationship with those foods

19:29

than if they hadn't done the elimination

19:31

diet to begin with. Another

19:47

thing that parents I think we'll try. To

19:49

prevent their kids from having as shook her head

19:52

that as a huge one in this culture. And

19:54

I know many parents struggle with other so much

19:56

messaging out there that sugar is bad and toxic

19:58

for kids are that they're going to. The out

20:00

of control is there any think even

20:02

parents have a very good relationship with food

20:04

and or and tude of eater and

20:06

all that stuff can struggle with like what

20:09

are appropriate limits to sat around sugar? I

20:11

know even. I'm like my daughter Billie

20:13

likes ice cream and we give her desert

20:15

with dinner and sometimes will do ice

20:17

cream some pencil do cookies, sometimes will do

20:20

whatever. you know different things, sometimes it's psych.

20:22

Fruit. Or whatever, you know, But if

20:24

she's asking for ice cream like every. Single

20:26

night and like you know, sometimes I found myself

20:28

being like oh, we don't have any right now

20:31

you know, Just so that I'm like not giving

20:33

her the same thing all the time. but then

20:35

I had to struggle. You know as this. some

20:37

die a culture stuff coming up for me of

20:40

what's going on here. What. Are appropriate limits to

20:42

set. So I really appreciated. What?

20:44

You wrote in a book about that

20:46

about like setting limits in a way

20:48

that is not restrictive. Can you talk

20:50

a little bit about that? Sure, I

20:52

think the key with setting limits of

20:54

any kind with children actually. but food

20:56

is in here and that's what we're

20:58

talking about. The key to setting limits

21:00

of any kind is consistency. And.

21:03

Sort of nonchalance about it. So if

21:05

you were to say. We're. Not

21:07

having a scream tonight, but maybe we wall

21:10

and a couple of days. Just

21:12

like that's not what for having tonight, but we'll

21:14

have some soon. Just. Like in

21:16

a very nonchalant. And reasonable way

21:18

so that everybody is under

21:21

the same umbrella. Of that limit.

21:23

That's the most important thing when I

21:25

think family's has gotten into some trouble

21:27

with food as I've seen it in

21:30

my practice is when one sadly member

21:32

has a different rule about sweets and

21:34

the other. Were. Like the

21:36

boys are able to eat differently than the

21:38

girls which. All. Genders should

21:40

be able to eat similarly.

21:43

And a family or one that children

21:45

her given limits around sweets but then

21:47

they witnessed the parents eating the thing

21:50

that are not allowed to have for

21:52

example. So the bottom line is consistency

21:54

in general. And I'm a

21:57

really big fan of having as little

21:59

limits as. Possible when it comes

22:01

to food I really tried to

22:03

has, they're pretty much know nothing

22:05

was off limits in my house

22:07

and that works for us. And

22:09

my kids had a very diverse

22:11

pilot and relationship with food and

22:13

never really had a lot of

22:15

charts around certain foods, so I

22:17

worked well for me. But I'm

22:19

aware that all families are different

22:21

and sometimes the. Charge around

22:23

sweet foods com. Is

22:25

in young and early and.

22:28

It may be related to the environment

22:30

or not. And some limits are

22:32

reasonable. We wouldn't bring a child into

22:34

a candy store and say you can

22:36

eat everything in the store. We would

22:38

say. We're. Going to walk into the

22:40

store and here's. Two dollars or

22:43

years is a little bag in

22:45

you can fill it up. So

22:47

teaching reasonable limits around anything is

22:50

really. Helpful. It's part of our job as

22:52

parents. But the key is consistency

22:54

and reasonableness. And not like limits

22:56

are flexible to, you know, maybe

22:59

usually you don't as a family.

23:01

Do. This one thing. but today it's like

23:03

we're going to do something different. So.

23:05

They can also be flexible and I

23:07

think that's really important asking for kids.

23:10

Yeah. I think that some helpful and as the

23:12

idea of we're having this tonight and we do

23:14

have the southern thing tomorrow's said. Serve helpful

23:16

framing to. I. Think I try to

23:19

do that and be nonchalant about it. But there's

23:21

a sort of nagging feeling in my head of

23:23

oh, I'm doing it wrong or whatever,

23:25

but because I think we all wanna

23:27

as an anti diet dietitian I wanna

23:29

has total openness and freedom and flexibility

23:32

with food been out so one. Biggest

23:35

variety and to expose my

23:37

daughter. Different things and not have her sort

23:39

of gets stuck on one food that becomes the

23:41

only thing she ever wants to eat which is

23:43

a tricky thing right now because she is so

23:46

picky. Anyway we're trying to to have different things

23:48

that each meal just to kinda get it to

23:50

not have other than a few things that are

23:52

like her go to the which will have but

23:55

then we have other things that are different around

23:57

that. Yeah. But I'm finding that this

23:59

hurt us. Lack of diversity in

24:01

her desires. Is a child is for me right

24:03

now. Of course I know all

24:06

too well that feeling of

24:08

overthinking things just because we

24:10

are anti diet the his

24:12

his services exists so I

24:14

totally get that. And. Picking

24:16

us as one of those things

24:18

that really like pugs and heart

24:20

to because you're providing this food,

24:22

this nourishment for your child and

24:24

they don't want it and so

24:26

it's hard not to have. Like

24:28

a person or emotional response to

24:30

that to obviously we want the

24:32

best for. Our kids and

24:35

we know that and diversity in the

24:37

diet is like ideal from us. You

24:39

know nutritional standpoint but. Yet we also

24:41

can't force. Child to try

24:43

new. Things we can only

24:45

make suggestions. Or continue to

24:47

make the foods available. Continue to

24:50

give them opportunities to try them

24:52

or touch them or smell them

24:54

or see in the kitchen with

24:57

some we can't make really create.

25:00

A eater who loves is a diversity

25:02

of foods like they have to go

25:04

at their own time and some kids

25:06

are just more adventurous. And.

25:08

Some kids are much more cautious and it's

25:11

hard to like sit back as. A parent

25:13

in response at individual difference of the

25:15

child and respect their autonomy around it

25:17

when we kind of quote unquote know

25:19

better but it's so critical and is

25:22

critical And I have so much solidarity

25:24

around how hard it is to do

25:26

as a parent. Yeah, It's. A

25:28

tricky balance and I think for me that stuff.

25:30

About allow and foods and not restricting are having

25:33

nice or of limits on how much of south

25:35

can eat some pretty easily you know Other than

25:37

this. One thing about Like a way to ice

25:39

cream every single time we can have other desserts.

25:41

And Steven. The thing about sugar? really? it's just

25:43

the thing about variety that's kind of my hang

25:46

up. The easy to like, let everything be. on

25:48

limits but i am i find it hard

25:50

and you talking when chapter about this about

25:52

the like encouragement to eat as a way

25:55

that parents can unwittingly interfere in their child's

25:57

relationship with food and that that's the thing

25:59

that i I struggle with because of the

26:01

pickiness, because I'm like, can you just eat some food and

26:03

can you just eat some variety? I know

26:05

that overall, over time, the variety

26:08

balances out and it's not a big deal. She only

26:10

has, you know, one type of food for a couple

26:12

of days and another type of food and that it

26:14

all kind of comes out in the wash within a

26:16

week. And just encouraging

26:19

food consumption in general, I think, is

26:21

something that I struggle with and I

26:23

try not to do it and don't want to

26:25

interfere. But, you know, there's moments where, oh, you're really

26:28

all done? Do you really want this? And it's tough

26:30

too, because sometimes she says all done and then she

26:32

eats more. You know, she's like literally putting food in

26:34

her mouth as she's saying all done. So

26:37

it can be a challenge from that perspective

26:39

too. Absolutely. That's why I tell the story

26:41

about how I chased my daughters out the

26:43

door with breakfast, because

26:45

even I know that that's

26:47

like not what we're supposed to be doing.

26:50

But I did it anyway, because we think

26:52

as parents, we in some ways know what

26:54

good for our kids and I know that

26:56

like my kids are going to crash

26:58

midway through their morning at school if they

27:01

don't have a good breakfast. But

27:03

they sort of need to figure that out for

27:05

themselves, especially as, you know, this is an older

27:07

child moment that I talk about, you know, they

27:09

kind of have to figure that out for themselves

27:11

over time. But when they're little, of course,

27:15

you want to encourage diversity,

27:17

you want to encourage them

27:19

to be comfortable with food.

27:22

And I think keeping it as light and no pressure

27:24

as possible really is all

27:26

you can do in that situation and know that

27:29

like picky eating is often

27:31

just part of development. And it's often

27:33

a cautious time or

27:35

a time when there's some sensory development

27:38

that feels like a little overwhelming for

27:40

the child. And it usually goes away.

27:42

These like food jags and pickiness

27:44

that happen, you know, most adults

27:47

aren't eating all white foods. But

27:50

some children do get stuck and

27:52

don't thrive and develop ARFID, for

27:54

example, or not separate and different

27:57

And does need to be addressed. But Most

27:59

Garden. Variety. Picky eating that

28:01

we encounter in our homes

28:03

really does. Go away over

28:06

time, particularly if we don't make too

28:08

much or that if we don't have

28:10

too much of an emotional response that

28:12

then. The. Child somehow needs to

28:14

exert their independence or ounces who who Then

28:17

it becomes a way to rebel and I'm

28:19

a way they know that consider as idea

28:21

of the. Or maybe not necessarily rebel.

28:23

Just like when a toddler doesn't like

28:26

really understand that. yet when they're older

28:28

they definitely do. But that's how there

28:30

is. more like they just wanna like

28:32

do it themselves. They won it, make

28:34

their decisions and south southeast feel a

28:37

parent encouraging them towards brought the lead.

28:39

It's gonna make them back off. More

28:42

especially if they're already feeling cautious about

28:44

broccoli to begin with because it's got

28:46

a we are texture so. Be

28:48

nonchalant in lie. About offering

28:50

that variety and. Not denning to

28:53

upset when things are touched vs

28:55

not touched. doing some encouragement around.

28:57

That's a whole try one new

28:59

food we've never tried before. Today.

29:02

I'm going to try something that I've never

29:04

tried. What about you? or? Would. This

29:06

be a day that would. Be a good day for you

29:08

to try. Something new. And. If

29:10

they say no and pick your battles, And

29:13

let a guy Who? Who? Yeah, I

29:15

also think it is a matter of time

29:17

and patience and in other certain things a cease

29:19

to love eating. She's a baby that she

29:21

now want pads and we're like okay cool

29:23

whenever like would try giving and different forms maybe

29:25

she'll accept as he leads to loves. Cheddar

29:28

cheese just straight out of the fridge.

29:30

slices crumbled up. Obviously. And then she

29:32

started hating it now. So eat it if

29:34

it's like. Cooked in some little

29:36

like cheddar cheese chips. Somebody. That sometimes

29:38

will be like a crunchy chips and we don't

29:41

really mention that it's cheese and it's not a

29:43

thing and seats behind. But then yesterday see my

29:45

husband was putting the size of setters he's on

29:47

his burger and my daughter was like one some

29:49

cheese and then really oh okay and since like

29:51

know what he sees. As their friend and school

29:54

you know and and all the sudden it's like a

29:56

cool thing to do because her friend does it. I

29:58

think that social element play the role. there too. It's

30:01

huge actually. Very often kids who

30:03

are picky will try different things

30:05

at their friend's houses. And

30:08

it's just a different environment and

30:10

often there's no dynamic around it.

30:12

So it makes it easier. And

30:15

how cool is that that she's opening

30:18

up and wanting to try

30:20

something that she'd been feeling a little

30:22

sheepish about? That's great. And that's

30:24

like kind of how it rolls with

30:26

food. And kids, they kind of like

30:28

go in and out of liking certain

30:30

things, not liking certain things. Obviously

30:33

there's so many other aspects of development

30:35

that are like bumpy and just like

30:37

that. But I think food preferences are

30:40

like that too. They shift, they

30:42

morph and they twist. And I

30:45

think we just have to appreciate that's

30:47

the unique experience of the child and

30:49

not get too upset about it. As

30:51

long as they're like growing and thriving

30:54

in general, then you probably can back

30:56

off and just be an observer around

30:58

it. Let that

31:00

ebb and flow as they grow. So hard to

31:02

do though. Like I just wanna add that it's

31:05

really hard to do as a parent, especially a

31:08

nutrition professional parent to

31:10

just let it go. Yeah, no,

31:12

as chill as we can be. I mean, I

31:14

think I'm a pretty chill parent overall. And I

31:16

know from your book and just your general vibe,

31:19

you seem like a pretty chill parent too. And

31:21

your kids even said, mom, you're so chill, it

31:23

drives me nuts. But

31:25

even then, like even the chillest parent

31:27

can have a really hard time with this

31:29

stuff. Totally, absolutely. I have my moments of

31:31

not being so chill too. Oh

31:34

yeah, yeah, same of course. And

31:36

I've had to work on that too. In some

31:38

way, like my nervous system is not naturally super

31:40

chill. So I have to do my work

31:43

on my end to stay regulated so

31:45

I can give them a nice safe

31:47

place to land when they're feeling dysregulated.

31:49

Yeah, same. I definitely, it has not

31:51

come naturally to me to be a chill

31:54

parent or to be a chill person in

31:56

general, to have a chill vibe that I

31:58

project. Although I think I did learn. early

32:00

on to like hide my true feelings

32:02

and project a neutral vibe. So there's

32:04

probably that part of it too. But

32:07

inside, you know, sometimes I'm roiling with

32:09

anxiety, but you wouldn't necessarily know it

32:11

on the surface. Sure. Yeah, I can

32:13

relate to that. And I think like it's actually

32:15

okay to not always be chill to as parents.

32:18

One of my chapters is about emotions.

32:20

Like we want our kids to have

32:22

full emotional expression. And it doesn't mean

32:24

that we're doormats though, as parents, and

32:27

we let our kids be in charge. We

32:29

still want to set reasonable limits to keep

32:31

them safe and teach them how to

32:33

respect other people and be respectful of others.

32:36

But like, in general, it's

32:38

really good for us to just

32:40

be real. And if we

32:42

have a response, an emotional response, for

32:45

example, that is something

32:47

that we wish that we didn't have,

32:49

we go back and we say, you know, I

32:52

wish that I had spoken to you a

32:54

little bit more gently about that. I'm sorry

32:56

that I didn't. I was

32:58

really upset. And the words

33:01

came out in a way that I don't feel good

33:03

about. So I just wanted to let you know, I'm

33:05

sorry. That does amazing work on

33:07

teaching them about, you know,

33:09

rupture and repair in relationships, just that little

33:11

bit. You know, I've seen

33:14

a lot of parenting trends, like the

33:16

big parenting trend now is gentle parenting

33:18

and this idea that in some of

33:20

the more militant applications of it, and

33:22

also some of the watered down applications

33:24

that you'll see on social media, it's like there

33:26

are all these scripts and you're supposed to

33:28

just be this parent robot who does the

33:30

script perfectly and shows no emotion and doesn't

33:32

have any sort of reactions of your own.

33:34

And of course, that's like not realistic

33:37

for anyone. And of course, parents are going

33:39

to have reactions and there's no need

33:41

to feel guilty or ashamed about that. And

33:43

I think to the way that gentle parenting

33:45

can sometimes get twisted is that you need

33:48

to be all about the emotion. You know,

33:50

dental parenting is like about validating emotions and

33:52

telling kids that it's okay to have emotions and

33:54

that's all great. But I think sometimes people

33:57

can go in this direction of like only

33:59

validating emotions. and not also setting the

34:01

boundaries, because I think the full expression really

34:03

needs to be, yeah, I see

34:05

that you're frustrated, I understand, I will be

34:07

frustrated too, and it's not okay to hit.

34:10

I won't let you hit. We need to

34:12

move away until you feel like you can

34:14

be there without hitting, or whatever it might

34:16

be. Yeah, boundaries are so valuable too, some

34:18

of what we teach by example. Yeah,

34:21

learning to set your own boundaries and

34:24

set boundaries with the child in a way that's affirming

34:27

still to who they are, I think is

34:29

a real skill. It is, and it's not

34:31

easy in the moment when you're feeling a

34:33

little dysregulated to yourself, because your

34:35

kid's freaking out, or something's happening

34:37

that's stressing you out. So I

34:40

have a lot of compassion around that. And

34:43

we're all learning and growing together

34:45

around this. That's hopefully

34:47

what I was trying to communicate in

34:49

my writing, that striving is

34:51

so wonderful for our

34:54

kids to see. If we are striving

34:56

to just be our best selves, and

34:58

also be human beings on a path

35:01

of growth, I think that's a wonderful

35:03

thing to demonstrate to a

35:05

kid. And we don't have to get

35:07

it perfect. Again, nobody wants perfect parents to have

35:09

to live up to. Right,

35:11

exactly, that creates its own problems, if

35:13

you're too perfect. And the kids can

35:16

never understand, I think there is that

35:18

idea of the good enough parent, that

35:20

you give them some sort of disappointment to learn

35:22

from. And not that you're intentionally disappointing your kids,

35:24

but just we will disappoint them. We will fail

35:26

to meet their needs in some ways, and

35:28

that's okay. And that's actually an important part of

35:31

development, if we could be quote unquote perfect, and

35:33

never disappoint them or fail to meet their needs,

35:35

that actually wouldn't be helpful for their

35:37

resilience or their growth. Absolutely, I'm

35:40

right there with you. Let's

35:43

talk about the issues with categorizing food as

35:46

good or bad. And even euphemisms that again,

35:48

I see a lot on social media, like

35:50

growing food versus extra food, or work food

35:52

versus play food, or does a lot versus

35:54

does a little. And I think parents do

35:56

this from a place of love, right? And

35:58

a place of courage. trying to support their

36:01

kids' well-being and not say good and

36:03

bad. And that's great. That's an important

36:05

effort to be making. And those

36:07

kinds of categories can be problematic, right? So

36:10

let's talk about like why categorizing food in

36:12

general is not something we might want to

36:14

do and what we could do instead. I'm

36:16

happy you brought this up because I do

36:18

think all of those seemingly

36:21

less harmful categories are

36:23

still categories. And

36:26

saying this is a growing food and you have to

36:28

eat this first before you can eat the

36:30

treat food. That's like what I'm hearing

36:32

probably the most is I think

36:35

that like is challenging because then it

36:37

again sets up certain foods to

36:40

be more valuable than others. And

36:43

again, it can be confusing to young

36:45

kids who don't actually have a hierarchy

36:48

around food usually. They might understand

36:50

like some things taste better to

36:52

them than other things, but there's

36:55

no morality usually in young children

36:57

around food. And so putting

37:00

food into categories introduces this

37:02

idea of morality with food,

37:04

which is just not necessary.

37:06

I think we want kids

37:08

to grow up appreciating that

37:11

food comes in lots of

37:13

different shapes and sizes and

37:15

smells and colors and that

37:18

it doesn't mean that we don't teach

37:20

about balance to children when they're

37:22

old enough to really take that in. When

37:24

they're old enough, thinking like

37:26

middle school, maybe a little before,

37:28

but young kids, particularly those who

37:30

don't really have any interest in

37:32

nutrition science, which is most of

37:34

them really don't need to like

37:36

learn about nutrition and

37:39

what has protein and what doesn't

37:41

and what has more vitamins than

37:43

other things. They really just don't

37:45

need to categorize food in any

37:47

way. What they need most

37:50

to do is learn how to self-regulate on

37:53

their own to learn how to sort of eat

37:55

to fuel their hunger and their

37:57

activity in their bodies and then notice.

38:00

when they've had enough and they're not

38:02

as interested in food and they want

38:04

to play something else. It's

38:06

really about being in their body

38:08

and experiencing food as opposed to

38:10

you introduce a category or

38:12

a label and then it brings kids right

38:14

out of their bodies and into a sort

38:17

of more of a mind kind of choice

38:19

around foods. Well, mom says I should be

38:21

eating this and so I'm going to either

38:23

eat more of it or I'm going to

38:25

eat less of it depending on the developmental

38:27

stage of the child as opposed

38:29

to like my body feels like eating

38:31

more of this. And

38:34

I think that's it's really helpful to

38:36

talk about like developmentally appropriate ways to

38:38

approach nutrition because those are very limited

38:40

actually as you say in the book

38:42

and really only appropriate for older kids and

38:44

yet schools are teaching this so young right

38:47

and I'm dreading the day that my daughter's

38:49

daycare starts teaching her about nutrition because the

38:51

owner kind of seems like she has that

38:53

vibe a little bit and you

38:55

know I'm curious what you think are some

38:58

developmentally appropriate ways that schools can talk

39:00

about nutrition with kids and how do

39:02

we know when they're doing it in a

39:04

way that might potentially be harmful or what we

39:06

can do to sort of set a boundary with

39:08

schools or care providers or other adults in the

39:10

child's life when they start talking about nutrition with

39:12

our kids in ways that we don't feel are

39:15

appropriate. Well, it's such a

39:17

hard one but I do think it

39:19

makes sense if you have a regular care

39:21

provider or a school system who's willing to

39:23

listen to sort of talk

39:25

about the way you like to approach food

39:27

with your kids and give them the evidence

39:29

base behind it. In general, children

39:33

just need to be

39:35

given balanced appropriate

39:37

diverse meals on

39:39

a regular basis from their care

39:42

providers and then be left to

39:44

eat what feels right in

39:46

their bodies in the moment. I really believe

39:48

that to be the best way

39:50

to approach food with young people. I think

39:53

when we start to interject too

39:55

much direction or education around shoulds

39:57

and shouldn'ts then it just gets

40:00

really confusing for kids. And I do

40:02

think that like our, we

40:04

have to change the way we teach about nutrition.

40:06

And we also have to encourage like

40:09

self-esteem and body image oriented education

40:11

in the curriculum. At the same

40:13

time, we're talking about food, right?

40:16

And we're just not there yet,

40:18

unfortunately, in most systems, most school

40:20

systems. But I do think that

40:22

actually less is more

40:24

when it comes to nutrition education for

40:26

young people. Do you think

40:28

there's a place for parents to ask if their kids

40:31

can do some sort of different activity while

40:33

the nutrition lesson is going on or

40:35

advocate for removing it for all kids? Like

40:37

what do you think makes

40:40

sense? Yeah, that's a great question. I

40:42

just don't know. I think it probably depends on

40:44

the individual school system in

40:46

terms of what's possible. I know a

40:48

colleague of mine who actually went in,

40:51

she's obviously a nutrition therapist

40:53

who does similar work as you and

40:55

I. And she went in and actually

40:57

worked with the school and revising the

40:59

curriculum and doing some different teaching. Not

41:01

everyone is able to do that or has the

41:03

time and ability to do that. But

41:06

I think it's worth putting

41:08

some information out there. And I do

41:10

have some resources in my book, and they're on

41:12

the web too, of how to

41:14

talk to schools about weight,

41:17

for example, or when calories

41:19

are discussed. There's some like templates that

41:21

are in, you know, happy to give

41:24

you the actual resource so that you

41:26

have it for your listeners too. That

41:28

would be great. Yeah, we can put that in the show

41:31

now. Yeah, that can be useful for folks

41:33

who are navigating this. You know, my kids

41:35

are in college now, so I haven't

41:37

had these discussions in

41:39

recent times. So I don't actually even

41:41

know all of what's going on in

41:43

the school systems these days. I think

41:45

that's very different depending on the system.

41:48

I know schools are supposed to have

41:51

some sort of curriculum about health and

41:53

wellness, but how much that involves nutrition

41:56

is probably up to the individual school.

41:58

Maybe they're state by state, regulations. on

42:00

that too. Yeah, and I just

42:02

would love to have more stress

42:04

management and discussion of

42:06

healthy body image and self-esteem

42:08

and emotions in those

42:10

health and wellness classes versus nutrition.

42:13

And I'm not saying that we

42:15

don't provide good nutrition for

42:17

our kids, I'm not saying that at all.

42:20

Someone joked that I'm like the person

42:22

who's saying we all have to eat

42:24

processed food or we have to give

42:26

processed food to our kids. It's just

42:28

not that simple, although I don't demonize

42:30

processed food of any type either. The

42:32

bottom line is unless you're milking the

42:34

cow in your backyard, everything's processed on

42:36

some level. But in general, I

42:38

wanted to make available good,

42:41

balanced, healthy, diverse

42:43

nutrition for my kids. And that's what I

42:45

did when I tried to make

42:48

food fun and accessible and

42:50

interesting and colorful. But that's

42:52

an adult role and the kids don't

42:55

need to get involved in that until

42:58

they're much older and they're doing much more

43:00

of that self selection of food. When

43:03

they're little, we provide and

43:05

they make choices out of that

43:07

diversity that we provide for them. And I

43:10

think that's really the best way to approach

43:12

food. As they get older and

43:14

they have questions about food, as

43:17

questions about how their bodies work and how the

43:19

food works in their bodies, those are the times

43:21

that we can interject a

43:23

little nutrition education, but it shouldn't

43:26

be about wellness because you and

43:28

I both know that bodies are

43:30

so unique and different and what's

43:32

well for one body in terms of

43:34

diet and nutrition could be very different in

43:37

another body. So a

43:39

focus should really be on diversity

43:41

in our diets and taking good

43:43

care of our cells and not

43:45

so much about trying to ward

43:47

off diseases, which I think is just confusing

43:49

for young people to take in. Yeah,

43:51

it's all very abstract and hard to process

43:54

and scary too, right? It can feel

43:56

really scary to think about some connection

43:58

between what you eat. In something

44:00

that's gonna harm your body I think kids

44:02

are very black and white and so those

44:04

kinds of messages get translate into this food

44:06

as bad as soon. As good like this? Who

44:08

does Gonna kill you So to gonna make you

44:11

get heart disease and therefore die or something. Gray

44:13

where is like really what kids

44:15

fast would learn about food I

44:17

think is like oh when I

44:20

eat a good breakfast it makes

44:22

me run faster or when I

44:24

eat a bigger snacks than I

44:26

focus on my homework. Or

44:29

and stuff like I think the importance of

44:31

food. Is important to teach on some

44:33

level that like food actually helps. You

44:35

through your day. Me: That's

44:37

the most important message for young people to

44:39

do that and age. Appropriate. Ways probably

44:41

means we don't teach that very young right?

44:43

That's again, like for kids that are older

44:45

and starting to think about how their bodies.

44:47

Work and maybe a little bit more

44:49

open to that are in science classes and

44:52

learning about things that are related. Yes

44:54

if they have questions about it and certainly

44:56

but for the most part little ones they

44:58

just wanna talk about their preferences and

45:00

she comes. To says they don't really

45:03

wanna talk about anything. Science related.

45:21

Let's talk a little bit about

45:23

pleasure and why When you're in

45:25

your chapter about nutrition, you really

45:27

emphasize pleasure and. Put. It even

45:29

over and above. Nutrition as as being important

45:31

for a while being. Wow.

45:34

I think that. Our kids are

45:36

going to get lots of nutrition

45:38

information from. The. Internet When

45:41

they become exposed to the internet

45:43

which is the younger and younger

45:45

and so I think the more

45:47

nonchalant in pleasure or anted we

45:49

can be around foods that are.

45:51

And. I. Think. Making

45:54

food fun and also making

45:56

like and balanced healthy eating

45:59

fun. I. There's important in a

46:01

we do. A lot of teaching. In.

46:03

Our kitchen, if we're someone's is

46:05

inclined to beat the food prepare

46:08

of the family. When. We

46:10

get kids involved and putting a meal together

46:12

and kind of show them what it looks

46:14

like to. Create a meal. We.

46:17

Don't have to talk about. Protein.

46:19

And carbohydrates and. Sat.

46:21

Sun. All of that. We. Just have

46:23

to. Play. With our kids in

46:25

the kitchens and someone it and they learn

46:28

a little bit about what balance looks like.

46:30

So. I think keeping it like keeping

46:32

it focus on pleasure. And.

46:35

Enjoyment and getting together as

46:37

a family and sharing food.

46:40

Is. I think part of makes

46:42

food and. For. Kids and

46:44

hopefully they'll have a more diverse palette

46:46

and they'll be more open to different

46:49

foods when they can be more involved

46:51

in the process. And it's. Actually fun.

46:54

Speaking. Of when they get on the

46:56

internet. One the steps near

46:58

but this said discuss social media and

47:00

build community which I love cause I've

47:02

been doing a lot of research for

47:05

my work on wellness concerts. Look at

47:07

how wellness misinformation. And disinformation spreads

47:09

and the rules, social media and

47:11

not in any sort of radicalizing

47:13

us and exposing. Us to more and

47:16

more extreme diet and wellness. Content lead

47:18

people down this rabbit holes. And

47:20

they can ultimately lead to really. Toxic

47:23

forms of misinformation. not just about food

47:25

and lead stuff, but also about vaccines

47:27

and other things in a public health

47:29

matters. So I think talking to kids

47:31

about social media and having boundaries are.

47:34

Social media is super important, and regulation

47:36

of social media I think is super

47:38

important as well. At the policy level,

47:40

how do you recommend? Parents talk to

47:42

kids about social media and what boundaries

47:45

we consider setting on and. I

47:47

think that it really depends on

47:49

your family. I'd never set up

47:51

for rules for families I work

47:53

with around us, but I think

47:55

it's very individual. Personally, I think

47:57

the longer. You can keep kids away from.

48:00

Social Media and the better. But. Eventually

48:02

it's inevitable and I think

48:04

having reasonable limits. Around

48:06

it that everyone in the family can

48:08

comply with. Absolutely makes sense.

48:11

And. And that means the

48:13

adults actually to potentially especially if you're

48:16

going to be seen. Using

48:18

social media in your house? You wanna

48:20

be consistent with your guidelines for the

48:22

young people in your own behaviors. With

48:25

it. But what I highlighted the most

48:27

in this chapter. Is. What I

48:29

think is a bomb again. Social Media

48:31

x I don't think social media and

48:33

like the internet are gonna go away.

48:35

I think that those messages. This.

48:38

Information and. Misinformation are going

48:40

to be out there. Sadly, I love

48:42

the advocacy work that you and others.

48:44

Are doing around this. Christie. But I think

48:46

on for Slant it's not going away anytime

48:49

soon. so I feel like what we can

48:51

do. As Families is

48:53

really create. Community around

48:55

our kids. That. Is

48:58

support as so that they have

49:00

other people to go to. To.

49:03

Ask questions, About.

49:06

And thing that they may see on social

49:08

media for example that seems a little funny

49:10

or a my balance something that they saw

49:13

and social media off one of their community

49:15

members parents are definitely part of that community,

49:17

but I think it's also great to have

49:19

lots of other adults. May be some. Kittens

49:22

that you trust and bring into

49:24

your household to like actually. Be

49:27

declared his connection to the

49:29

It's for our children that

49:31

are outside of. Social

49:34

Media influencers. It's like you create

49:36

your own little set of influencers

49:38

around your to make sense. Not

49:41

because you're trying to influence per se,

49:43

because. Obviously our kids have to grow

49:45

and experience the world in their own

49:47

way. But that you have good

49:49

people around them who can counteract

49:51

some of that. Stuff. That's

49:54

out there that is not. Really?

49:56

About them, you know it's sort of like

49:58

real laws. Vs. all those

50:00

social media likes and you create as

50:02

much real love around your child

50:04

as possible. And I think that

50:06

can be a really helpful bomb

50:09

and it may not totally protect

50:11

your child from everything that's out there. There's no

50:13

way that you can do that, but at

50:15

least it gives them some

50:17

people to talk to so that if

50:19

something they see or read is really

50:21

confusing or traumatic or distressing

50:24

in some way, they have people to talk to.

50:26

Yeah. It makes me think a

50:29

little bit about the discourse around

50:31

processed foods and how there are

50:33

some people who advocate

50:35

just totally banning them

50:37

or keeping them out of your household and

50:39

you know, not engaging with processed foods in any

50:41

way. And similarly, there

50:44

are some people who advocate really strict

50:46

limits around social media or screens. And

50:49

I think it's unrealistic in both of those cases,

50:52

right, to have this sort of wholesale

50:54

ban on these things, especially as kids get older.

50:57

You know, certainly when they're young, you can keep

50:59

them away from those things. But as they're

51:01

aging into like middle and high school, they're going

51:03

to be exposed in some ways too. And so

51:05

helping them learn like reasonable

51:07

ways of engaging or even if you're not,

51:09

I mean, I personally also think that as

51:11

long as I can wait to give social

51:13

media to my daughter and who knows what

51:15

it's going to be like when she's in

51:17

her teens, but hopefully we will have

51:19

some better regulations on things by then. But

51:21

I think even as much as I want

51:24

to wait, I also want to help her

51:26

have a critical relationship with it and a

51:28

skeptical and thoughtful relationship with it if

51:30

she does encounter it from a friend

51:32

or someone's house or whatever. So versus

51:34

a wholesale ban that I think can make, like you said,

51:36

you know, in terms of processed food or other kinds

51:38

of foods that are off limits can make kids

51:40

feel totally like unhinged around the food when they're

51:43

exposed to it at a friend's house or out

51:45

in the world. And you know,

51:47

I think regulations do play a role when it

51:49

comes to social media and keeping kids safe, keeping

51:51

everyone safe, honestly, protecting our mental health and our

51:54

public health and stuff like that. But I also

51:57

think the parallel with food where it's

51:59

like kids. are well nourished and satisfied

52:01

and don't have anything off limits and

52:03

aren't sort of in this deprived relationship

52:06

with food, then they can generally

52:08

handle themselves a lot better around foods

52:11

that are deemed quote unquote processed or

52:13

ultra processed. They don't have that same

52:15

kind of compulsive feeling around those

52:17

foods. And I think perhaps similarly

52:19

with social media, when kids are

52:21

generally well resourced with community and

52:23

friendships and like offline connections and

52:25

sources of information they can go

52:27

to that are in the real

52:29

world and have validity and people they

52:31

trust, they probably have less of a

52:33

need to turn to social media and

52:35

those kinds of incentives and

52:38

relationships that exist there. Absolutely.

52:40

I think that was so

52:42

well said. It's really about balance and

52:45

all things. But definitely I think when it comes

52:47

to social media, keeping the lines of

52:49

communication open so that

52:52

when your child starts to become

52:54

introduced to social media, you you're

52:56

just asking them like I'm curious about what

52:59

kinds of things are you finding

53:01

interesting? Being curious like not critical,

53:03

but curious about it. Oh, and how does

53:05

it make you feel when you look at that? That's

53:08

a big one. How does it make you

53:10

feel, you know, when you take a look

53:12

at something on social media

53:14

to help them think critically about what

53:17

they're choosing and not choosing

53:19

to look at? And, you know, I think as

53:21

they get older, they'll like understand a little

53:23

bit more, you know, one of my daughters

53:25

was home from college and was like, Mom, I'm

53:27

working on a paper. And I want

53:31

you to take my phone like you used to

53:33

when you were when we were kids. She's like,

53:35

where's the bowl? Because I used to have this

53:37

bowl that we put the phones and like, okay,

53:39

it's gonna the phones in the bowl time. You

53:41

know, she's like, where's that bowl? She's like, will

53:43

you take it? And if I ask for it,

53:45

we not give it to me. And it was

53:47

kind of funny. It was almost like she knew

53:49

she had the self awareness to know that it

53:51

was kind of addictive, like psychologically addictive. And she

53:53

wanted to get her paper done. So just interesting,

53:55

you know, when they get older, they can regulate

53:57

around that a little Bit more, or they might even ask you

53:59

for help. Well, I thought that was a

54:01

sweet example of like, okay, she got it,

54:03

She hated when I took. The ball out

54:05

when they were kids and she did not

54:07

like it when that ball came out. but

54:10

now she kind of gets why the ball

54:12

came out. And

54:14

that probably wouldn't have in the case. As the

54:16

limitless so strict that see felt the need

54:18

to like completely go the other night and.

54:21

Right? The try to keep social media

54:23

away as long as possible, but there

54:25

is a point at which it and

54:27

then. Makes them. Very

54:29

different than the other children around them

54:32

and. Their needs to be some kind of

54:34

access so they can learn how to manage it. Just.

54:37

Like you said earlier and so having some

54:39

limits and we often with sit down and talk

54:41

about it so what do you think is an

54:43

appropriate amount of time to be on. You

54:46

know your phone? Is like what do you

54:48

think like when do you think it's okay to have your phone

54:50

out. And they would say and nine after school

54:52

when I'm trying. To do my homework Or. Not.

54:55

After what time night or in a

54:57

we would make these decisions together when

54:59

they were old enough to be a

55:01

part of that discussion when they were

55:03

teens. And that was really helpful for

55:05

any pretense I believe cassettes when they have

55:07

their first phone and weeks any came up

55:10

with those guidelines together and then we would

55:12

adjust them if it wasn't working. And

55:14

son's grave. Is really helpful to also

55:16

have them be a part of the decision making. And

55:18

that feel like it's as being imposed on them. Absolutely

55:21

especially for older kids as you're entering

55:23

adolescence. Agency is so important and which

55:26

is why I think food gets kind

55:28

of thrown in there at times when

55:30

someone feels like maybe there's some things

55:33

that are out of their control and

55:35

they're very changing lives, but I think

55:37

giving them some agency in those decisions.

55:40

Doesn't. Mean that you give them free rein

55:42

with. Of home because they say

55:44

they said that Obviously working together to

55:46

come up with some guidelines make sense.

55:49

Of think you heidi for everything is Sarah. The some

55:51

really great book. I'm excited for people to

55:53

check it out and learn more about your.

55:55

Work. Can you tell them where they can do that? or

55:57

they can find your online and find her books. Yeah! Thank you

55:59

I. At a Nourishing word.com

56:01

So that's a Nourishing Word

56:04

W O R A D.

56:07

Dot. Com and you can find my

56:09

book. Their authors always love it when

56:11

you buy directly from them, but it's

56:14

also and bookshop.org it's available and all

56:16

bookstores and libraries you just have to

56:18

ask for it. It's. Available

56:20

on all the platforms as well and.

56:22

The name of the book is Nurture. How

56:25

to raise kids who love food,

56:27

their bodies, and themselves. Me:

56:29

They will put links to that the zone or so people

56:31

can find it think you're done, this is a great conversation,

56:33

thank you so much. Having me Christie, I really

56:35

appreciate it. So.

56:38

That's our so. Thanks. Again to

56:40

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