0:00

This episode of Food Psych is brought to you by

0:02

my upcoming book The Wellness Trap.

0:04

Break free from diet culture, disinformation,

0:07

and dubious diagnoses and find your

0:09

true well-being, which is available

0:11

for preorder now. Just go to

0:13

christy harrison dot com slash the wellness

0:15

trial to learn more and preorder for

0:18

its April twenty twenty three release. That's

0:20

christy harrison dot com slash the wellness

0:22

trap. Welcome to Food Psych,

0:25

a podcast dedicated to critiquing diet

0:27

and wellness culture, and answering your

0:29

questions about intuitive eating and

0:31

anti diet approach. I'm

0:33

your host, Christie Harrison, and I'm a registered

0:36

dietician, certified intuitive eating

0:38

counselor, journalist and author of

0:40

the book's Anti Diet, which is available

0:42

now wherever books are sold, and

0:44

The Wellness Trap, which will be out in early

0:46

twenty twenty three. And by

0:48

the way, on this show, I avoid saying

0:51

diet culture stuff like weight and calorie

0:53

numbers, but we don't censor swear

0:55

words or other adult language, so listener

0:57

discretion is advised.

1:24

Hey there. Welcome to this episode of Food

1:26

Psych. I'm your host, Christie Harrison,

1:29

and today I have another interview to share with

1:31

you. I'm slowly getting back into the swing

1:33

of things doing interview episodes, which

1:35

I did for our first eight or nine years

1:37

of this podcast and had taken

1:40

a break doing solo episodes this season,

1:42

but really excited to be sharing some interviews

1:44

with you again. And today is a really, really

1:46

good one. My guest is Casey

1:48

Gueren, award winning health journalist

1:50

and author of it's probably nothing.

1:53

And we discuss how to deal with health,

1:55

anxiety, strategies for

1:57

recognizing and avoiding wellness misinformation

2:00

online, how to develop greater

2:02

media literacy, and deal with fear

2:05

mongering nutrition headlines and so

2:07

much more. I'm really excited to

2:09

share this conversation with you in just a moment,

2:11

but before I do just a few quick announcements.

2:14

This episode is brought to you by my upcoming

2:16

book The Wellness Trap. Break free from

2:18

diet culture, disinformation, and

2:20

dubious diagnosis, and find your true

2:22

well-being. Which is available for pre

2:24

order now. This book is deeply

2:27

personal to me as someone with a whole

2:29

host of chronic health conditions that

2:31

wellness culture constantly pushes

2:33

me to quote unquote fix with food

2:35

supplements and various alternative

2:38

practices that My reporting

2:40

and research has really shown me are at

2:42

best unproven and often downright

2:44

dangerous. My hope with this

2:46

book is to illuminate the damage while

2:49

this culture is causing and to

2:51

explore how we can reimagine our collective

2:53

relationship with well-being for the better.

2:56

If that sounds interesting to you, I'd love

2:58

it if you preordered the book. Just

3:00

go to christy harrison dot com slash the wellness

3:02

trap, to learn more and preorder

3:04

for its release on April twenty fifth.

3:06

That's christy harrison dot com slash the wellness

3:09

trap, or you can ask for it at your favorite

3:11

independent bookstore. This

3:13

episode is also brought to you by my Intuitive

3:15

Eating Fundamentals Online Course, which

3:17

has its first live q and a session in

3:19

a few days. If you're listening to this the week

3:21

it comes out. The course is an incredibly

3:24

deep dive into intuitive eating with

3:26

dozens of hours of content, helping you

3:29

work through the ten principles of intuitive eating.

3:31

Troubleshoot common sticking points, and

3:33

get to a place of greater peace with food.

3:36

I'm now also offering monthly Zoom calls

3:38

to participants to help answer your questions

3:40

as you work through the course and connect

3:43

people with each other. If you're ready

3:45

to break free from diet culture and reclaim

3:47

your right to a peaceful, easy relationship

3:49

with food, learn more and sign up at

3:51

christy harrison dot com slash course.

3:54

That's christy harrison dot com slash

3:56

course. Now without any

3:58

further ado, let's go to my conversation with

4:00

Casey Gueren.

4:02

So Casey, welcome to the show. I'm so excited

4:04

to talk with you today. And I'd love

4:06

to start right

4:07

off by asking you to tell us a bit about

4:09

who you are and how you came to

4:11

do the work that you do. Thank you

4:13

so much for having me. Of course,

4:16

so I am a

4:18

writer, editor, author

4:21

most recently. And right now,

4:23

I am the head of content at WonderMIND, which

4:25

is Mental Health Media Company.

4:28

And how I got into this,

4:30

I actually got my start in

4:32

magazines and women's magazines and

4:35

print actually right out of

4:37

college. I always knew that I wanted to be

4:40

writing in women's magazines. They just

4:42

fascinated me growing up. And

4:44

then I ended up finding my

4:47

niche in health editing and

4:49

health writing. And that actually happened

4:52

at my first job out of college at cosmo.

4:54

I was an editorial assistant and just kind

4:56

of helping with a little bit of everything and

4:59

really dove into the health section.

5:02

Because I always had my own

5:04

questions answered in magazines and

5:06

the health sections. So that definitely

5:08

was where I was gravitating towards and it

5:10

just kind of snowballed from Gueren. Every job

5:13

after that, I would end up diving

5:15

a little bit deeper into the health

5:17

and wellness space. I went from

5:19

Cosmo to women's health. From

5:21

there, I went to BuzzFeed as their health editor,

5:24

and then at self magazine, overseeing

5:26

health and wellness. Again, there's a theme, and

5:29

eventually ended up writing my

5:32

first book, which is, of course, around

5:34

health and wellness. But really

5:36

explores what it's like to be

5:38

a health editor who also deals with health

5:40

anxiety and a health editor's

5:43

views on how to navigate all

5:45

of those wellness messages that we're getting

5:47

all the time because I'm

5:49

obviously, you know, understanding of how

5:51

that content gets out Gueren, but also

5:54

I'm very familiar with how it can

5:56

make you kind of

5:57

go, spiral a bit, and go down some rabbit

5:59

holes on online. Yeah.

6:01

And I would love to get into that a little

6:03

bit because you share in your book that

6:05

you have a lot of health anxiety

6:07

yourself. And I can totally

6:09

relate to that too. And think there's probably

6:12

many health and wellness journalists out there

6:14

actually who are attracted to the profession because

6:16

of their own anxieties or their own

6:19

health issues and concerns and kinda wanting

6:21

to master that. I know that that

6:23

was true for me certainly. So I'm curious

6:25

to hear about the role that health anxiety

6:28

played for you in bringing

6:30

you to this career and then also how it's affected

6:32

your career as a health writer and elder.

6:34

Yeah. I mean, I think it is one of those

6:36

things that you see this in other professions too,

6:39

right, where people do gravitate towards

6:42

professions where they have some

6:44

either personal interest questions about it. I mean,

6:46

I know I've heard psychologists say that

6:48

we get into this profession because you

6:50

are fascinated with, you know, what's going on in

6:52

your own head. And I think

6:54

for me, again, I was

6:56

consumed with magazines

6:59

growing up. I I loved one magazine, teen

7:01

magazines. And I felt like that's

7:03

where I was getting a ton of my education on

7:06

things like health and sex and dating

7:08

and relationships and emotions. And

7:10

so when I was looking

7:12

into journalism schools.

7:15

I was also kind of gravitating towards

7:17

the psychology departments too because I

7:19

realized a lot of these magazines are

7:21

quoting psychologists. They're quoting

7:24

doctors, like, I wanna have some understanding

7:26

of that. But I definitely think

7:28

that my own personal health questions

7:31

really got me into writing

7:34

in the help sections at a Cosmo. I mean,

7:36

I know that I ended

7:38

up just pitching a whole lot more for those sections

7:40

because Those pitches came easy. I

7:42

had a lot of questions about my own health

7:44

and body. And so, again,

7:46

this was, like, twenty eleven, twenty twelve.

7:49

We didn't have all, you know,

7:51

the data that we have now on Google

7:53

to see what people are searching, what people are clicking

7:55

on. This was, when I was working for the print

7:57

magazine, was a lot of times just

7:59

like, what questions do you have? What are

8:02

you and your friends talking about? So

8:04

I think it I ended up gravitating

8:06

towards the help sections because I

8:09

always had so many questions about my own

8:11

health and my own body. And I

8:13

wanted to be a part of creating content

8:16

that kinda demystified that and

8:18

not in a scary way because

8:20

I was definitely guilty of, you know, I'd

8:22

open up article in a magazine

8:25

or see something online and immediately think,

8:27

oh, I have that or I'm definitely gonna

8:29

die from that. And so I wanted, of course,

8:31

be part of the solution,

8:33

not the problem. I couldn't wanna create content that

8:35

made people think, oh my gosh, I have that.

8:37

But I wanted to be part of creating content

8:40

that made it a little less scary. Which

8:42

is a really fine line in creating

8:44

that content. But that was

8:47

I think what got me into it.

8:49

What the health anxiety did

8:52

for my career. I mean, I would

8:54

say being a health journalist is

8:56

not necessarily the job I would suggest

8:58

to people who are already anxious

9:00

about their own bodies because day

9:02

in and day out, you're having to consume

9:05

so many health headlines and

9:07

so much health news. It's often

9:09

things like whatever disease

9:11

is trending or whatever, diseases

9:14

in the news celebrity help

9:16

scares, things like that that you then just

9:18

had to dive deep into and find out everything

9:20

about it. And I would find myself

9:23

putting together a package on whatever health condition

9:25

or covering a story of a celebrity's health

9:27

news and going down these rabbit

9:30

holes and thinking, okay, do I have this? Could

9:32

I have this? I have maybe one symptom?

9:34

I probably have it. And then that's

9:37

the thing that I am panicking

9:39

over. And you

9:41

know, of all the things that I thought I

9:43

had, I don't think I

9:45

ever really identified with being

9:48

a hypochondriac, which is really

9:50

interesting. And then one time,

9:52

I was editing a piece, I think,

9:54

at BuzzFeed, about hypocondriosis

9:57

and learned about how

9:59

it's not actually in the DSM

10:02

anymore and about how it's not

10:04

necessarily people going to all these doctors

10:06

all time, like, there are different ways that I can

10:08

Gueren. And that kind

10:11

of had the light bulb moment for

10:13

me where I realized okay, maybe

10:15

this has a name. Maybe maybe this is a thing

10:17

that I'm dealing with. So that's kind of

10:19

what what made me understand that health anxiety

10:21

is more of a symptom of certain

10:24

mental health Nutritionist. And that it's

10:26

something that we can experience kind of on a spectrum.

10:28

So for me, it was definitely

10:31

influencing the way that I showed up in my

10:33

job, the way that I did my job. But

10:35

it also, I think, made me, hopefully,

10:38

you know, a

10:38

more

10:39

thoughtful and an empathetic editor

10:42

in how we covered certain

10:44

things and and the topics and the ways

10:46

that we packaged content to

10:48

make sure that it wasn't going to be really

10:50

sheer mongry and, you know, something that's gonna

10:52

keep someone up at night. That is

10:54

so interesting. There's so many sort

10:57

of tangents we could go off of that. But

10:59

I'm curious just with

11:01

your reference to the DSM, like what

11:03

you found in that and sort of

11:06

why I know you mentioned in your book too that like

11:08

the term hypochondriac is kind of stigmatizing

11:11

it's not something that's used these days.

11:13

And like you said, it

11:15

looks different now than maybe it

11:17

did in the past where people would go doctor shopping

11:20

and there are reasons for that too, even

11:22

with people who don't have a lot of health

11:24

anxiety, right, that like going from doctor

11:27

to doctor is unfortunately part

11:29

of the reality of our healthcare system

11:31

in lot of cases to try to find the care

11:33

that you need for particular Nutritionist,

11:36

especially if you have something that's like undiagnosed

11:39

or not well understood. So

11:41

I'm curious like what you found in

11:44

researching that in terms of

11:46

mental health labels for health

11:48

anxiety and how helpful they are or

11:50

not, and kind of some

11:52

of the reasons why people develop health anxiety.

11:55

Yeah. I when I was researching for my

11:57

book, I found that, you know,

11:59

I'm thinking about, you know, what's

12:01

the best way to even

12:04

get into the topic of health anxiety

12:06

because it's obviously something that so many

12:08

people experience and can relate to of

12:10

that feeling of, like, you read something,

12:12

you think, you have it, or you're googling, your

12:14

symptoms late at night, or you're panicking

12:16

about some weird symptom or maul,

12:18

or mark, or pain, or something. But then

12:21

there is obviously that spectrum

12:23

there where you might be doing it more

12:25

to an excessive or a rational level.

12:27

And so a

12:30

lot of people think of that as being a hypochondriac,

12:33

but that condition

12:35

actually hasn't been in the DSM

12:38

sense twenty thirteen. So

12:41

in the fifth edition of the DSM,

12:43

they replaced hypocondriosis with two

12:45

different mental health Illness

12:47

anxiety disorder and

12:50

somatic symptom disorder. And

12:52

so the two are pre related. They

12:54

are can be some overlap between the two

12:56

illness anxiety disorders more

12:58

when you are afraid

13:01

of developing or having a

13:03

particular mental health condition. You may not have

13:05

any of the symptoms. You may just

13:08

have this excessive worry

13:10

about developing or having a condition. And

13:12

that condition can change that you're worried about.

13:15

Whereas somatic symptom disorder, it

13:17

does require you to have some symptoms

13:19

that are they could be

13:21

part of a condition that you have been diagnosed

13:24

with, but your level of concern

13:26

or the level of worry that you have,

13:28

how much it's consuming or day to day.

13:30

Life and thoughts is a little

13:32

bit more excessive than someone might assume

13:35

with that, which, again, you know, that's so

13:37

vague and, like, subjective,

13:40

but that's how it's outlined in the DSM.

13:43

But this excessive concern

13:45

and worry and just preoccupation

13:48

with your health and your body is

13:50

a symptom that can show up as part of other mental

13:52

health conditions too. It's what I learned from various

13:54

experts when I was interviewing people for the book.

13:56

It could be a a facet of OCD.

13:59

It could be a facet of just having generalized

14:02

anxiety disorder, depression. You

14:04

might just relate to this feeling

14:07

of that preoccupation with your body

14:09

or your health every once in a while,

14:11

like, when we're dealing with the pandemic,

14:14

like the past two years, I'm sure so many

14:16

people can relate to really

14:19

like honing in on certain symptoms and

14:22

having that kind of consume your thoughts for

14:24

the day. So, yeah,

14:26

I I think a lot of people think of it as

14:29

being a hypochondriac, but I

14:32

learned from some of the experts that I

14:34

talked to that it is a – was thought

14:36

of as a pretty stigmatizing term.

14:38

People automatically assume that

14:40

that meant that you are

14:43

freaking out about these symptoms and

14:45

you're going to all these doctors. And there's

14:47

just no basis to your concerns.

14:51

And one, that's really

14:53

harmful and stigmatizing

14:55

because they're could absolutely be,

14:58

you know, validity to your concerns. And

15:00

even if you don't have the thing that you

15:02

are thinking that you have, again,

15:04

the history of dismissing

15:07

people's health concerns and

15:09

medical concerns runs

15:11

deep in our society. So I think

15:13

that that was so part of why that was so

15:15

stigmatizing. But in terms

15:17

of even just illness anxiety disorder,

15:19

the criteria there for being diagnosed,

15:22

it actually is separate separated

15:24

between care seeking and

15:27

avoidant behavior. So

15:29

Some people might go from doctor to doctor

15:31

and look for that reassurance, whereas others

15:34

might present more an avoidant type

15:36

behavior. They might be avoiding the doctor

15:38

because you don't want to get that

15:41

fear confirmed. So you

15:43

might still have that reassurance seeking, you're googling

15:45

your symptoms, you're focusing on it, you're

15:47

trying to kind of check your body

15:49

for certain things, but then you might actually

15:51

be avoiding Gueren. And that was what

15:53

I related more towards.

15:56

And I think that's why I didn't relate

15:58

to the term hypochondriac at

16:00

first. So I think it's just an interesting

16:03

seems like, oh, it's all semantics, but

16:05

it also, you know, just starts an interesting

16:08

conversation about the way that

16:10

we think about mental health conditions

16:12

as being like these distinct categories

16:15

that you have to check off all these boxes to fit

16:17

into, whereas health anxiety seems like

16:19

one of those things that so many people

16:21

can relate to. And to

16:23

say that, you know, you have to check off all of these boxes

16:26

to have this conversation around it

16:28

just seems like it's kinda missing the

16:29

point. You know? Totally. And I think especially

16:32

in this day and age with the pandemic,

16:35

like you said, I think that's ratcheted up

16:37

so many people's health anxiety as

16:39

well as you know, the difficulty

16:41

of getting compassionate, competent

16:44

care for so many reasons. Right? For,

16:46

like, larger bodied people, people

16:48

of color, people who've been historically dismissed,

16:50

you know, women being dismissed

16:53

as quote unquote historical in the

16:55

past or today even

16:57

still, you know, that term is used in certain

16:59

quarters. And that idea, even if

17:01

it's not the terminology that's used, it's like

17:03

that idea is still that women

17:06

are overblowing their symptoms or

17:09

that their pain has somatic roots. And I think

17:11

it can be so tricky. Talking about

17:13

that, right? Because I'm someone who has

17:15

many different health conditions, both

17:17

physical and mental, one of which is

17:20

PTSD, and that definitely

17:22

can have some physical manifestations, anxiety,

17:24

you know, also generalized anxiety disorder

17:26

that can have some physical manifestations. And

17:29

that can also increase my

17:31

health anxiety, making me think

17:33

that I have, you know, different diseases

17:36

or that or like ratcheting up concern

17:38

about symptoms that are maybe

17:41

a little bit more normative or

17:43

symptoms that a lot of people might experience,

17:45

but that heightened anxiety can take

17:47

them to a level that feels really

17:50

extreme. And so it is really complicated

17:53

sort of sifting 312, like,

17:55

what is coming from health anxiety, what is

17:57

coming from real sort of structural problems

18:00

with the healthcare system

18:02

and what might be actually physically

18:04

going on that needs to be addressed. Right.

18:07

And think that's where, you know, there

18:10

is that that disconnect. You know,

18:12

there's not a ton of data

18:14

on how many people you know,

18:16

the prevalence rates of health anxiety

18:18

or even illness anxiety disorder and somatic

18:20

symptom disorder because so many people,

18:23

if you're identifying with this, if you're

18:25

struggling with this, you're probably going

18:27

to a bunch of doctors, medical doctors,

18:29

not necessarily a therapist, But

18:32

also, you know, who who has the time

18:34

and the resources and the money to

18:36

be going to a therapist and say, hey, I'm

18:38

concerned with how much I'm googling my symptoms.

18:41

Like there are so many barriers to

18:43

accessing good quality care that

18:46

it's so hard to determine if

18:48

the way that you are questioning

18:50

stuff going on with your body and either seeking

18:53

care or avoiding care is quote

18:55

unquote excessive or part of health anxiety

18:58

or if it is a byproduct

19:00

of

19:00

just, you

19:01

know, your circumstances if you don't have

19:03

time to be dealing with this. If you haven't gotten

19:06

compassionate care, if you've gotten very

19:08

stigmatizing care, it's really

19:10

hard. And I think it's something that providers

19:13

should just really be aware of

19:15

that that fine line between, you know,

19:17

explaining to a patient, how

19:19

their mental

19:22

state or stress, their anxiety, and

19:24

other conditions, you know, can manifest in

19:26

very real physical symptoms. And

19:30

negating, you know, what they're going through as

19:32

just being in your head or, oh, that's

19:34

just stress. Because, you know,

19:36

having your concerns dismissed is

19:38

certainly something that happens

19:41

a lot and, you know, disproportionately to

19:43

women, disproportionately to people

19:45

of color. So I think that,

19:47

yeah, it's just a really fine line, but between

19:49

what's excessive and what's not.

19:51

But I think what I wanted to tackle with this

19:53

book was just letting people realize

19:56

that there is a name for this and that

19:59

you know, connecting it to the

20:01

fact that we're presented with so many

20:03

messages around our body and our health all

20:05

the time that it's just kind of no wonder

20:07

that we stress out about it a little bit more and

20:09

more lately?

20:11

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to turn

20:13

to that talking about the messages beget

20:15

about our body and our health. On

20:17

one hand, there's the fear mongering

20:19

headlines that sort of amplify health

20:22

anxiety for people And

20:24

then there's also I mean, it's

20:26

sort of not on the one hand on the other,

20:28

but it there's then there's also the misinformation,

20:31

the rampant misinformation that we see online

20:33

that circulates on social media.

20:36

And there's research showing that misinformation

20:40

spreads farther, faster, wider,

20:42

deeper than the truth

20:45

because the social media algorithms

20:47

amplify things that

20:49

have a sense of novelty or provoke a sense

20:51

of moral outrage and so

20:53

misinformation kind of hits all those notes.

20:56

So I'm curious to know from your

20:58

perspective how should people navigate this

21:01

online environment where, you

21:03

know, we have all of this miss and disinformation

21:06

flooding our system. We also have

21:08

articles that may be accurate, but

21:10

that have headlines that are

21:12

fear mongering or that sort of ratchet

21:15

up the anxiety in a way that maybe isn't

21:17

necessary. Or that, you know, there's

21:19

there's so much subtlety. Right? Because there's also

21:22

reporting on on recent studies that

21:24

just came out and they are technically correct.

21:26

Like, they're technically reporting

21:28

some of the facts of the study, but they're missing a lot of

21:30

context or they're drawing

21:33

causal conclusions Gueren And

21:35

the research is really clear that it's like correlation

21:38

and authorization. So, you

21:39

know, how do people navigate this environment that

21:41

can be so anxiety producing and

21:43

fraud? Yeah. It's so hard.

21:45

I mean, you lifted a few really,

21:48

really tricky parts of

21:50

just, like, consuming media. Have

21:52

few days, like, we are. Just

21:55

inundated with so much

21:57

information that it is really hard to

21:59

decide, you know, kind of what sources to

22:01

trust, but also how to,

22:04

I don't know, which which ones you wanna really go

22:06

deep on and and see, okay,

22:08

am I getting all of the context of this story?

22:10

Like, again, who has the time to go

22:12

in and do that for every single story.

22:15

But something that I I try to

22:17

get across in my book is that

22:20

when it comes to content that

22:22

is going to impact how you

22:24

live your life, like changes that you're gonna

22:26

make to your life, your health, your body,

22:28

things like that. It really

22:30

does pay to do a little

22:32

bit more digging and just to be a

22:34

little bit more discerning about the content that

22:36

you're letting in, the messages that you're getting

22:38

exposed to. And then just asking

22:41

more questions when we're confronted

22:43

with stuff like that. So something

22:45

that I've heard from a lot of experts and I try

22:47

to practice is having a short

22:50

list of trusted sources that

22:52

you go to for health information. So in

22:55

the past two years. That's been

22:57

really hard to do because obviously

22:59

every brand, you know, and every

23:02

company organization, everything you

23:04

would be doing the disservice to not be talking

23:06

about a reality in this pandemic.

23:08

And so there's been everyone

23:11

shouting, whether it's advice or insights

23:14

or theories or takeaways around how

23:16

we should be living right now. So really drilling

23:18

down into like a short list trusted sources

23:20

that you feel like that's who I trust for

23:22

health information and or for information about

23:24

the pandemic or parenting or pregnancy

23:26

or so on. So that could

23:29

be, you know, whatever healthcare

23:31

provider you have access to.

23:33

It could be the CDC or your state

23:36

health department for certain things. It

23:38

could be a publication or two that

23:40

has a strong track record

23:42

on reporting on health or the

23:44

pandemic or whatever topic, you

23:46

know, you're looking for information on in a

23:48

really responsible way. Like, maybe they have

23:51

beat reporters that really

23:53

are thoughtful about their coverage of this

23:55

topic. But, you know, again,

23:57

understanding the limitations of those

23:59

big organizations like the CDC, you

24:01

know, any of those organizations that

24:03

are setting those big guidelines for

24:06

the masses, understanding that

24:08

that is for public health

24:10

and not necessarily focused

24:12

on all the personal use cases that you're gonna

24:14

come up with. So like you said, you

24:16

might be saying, oh, I need to only tune into

24:18

the CDC, but then you go to their site

24:21

and you feel like, okay, well, my

24:23

situation of this weekend and who I wanna

24:25

see and if I'm at risk and or if I

24:27

tested positive on this day, like, My

24:29

question isn't being answered, and that's

24:32

a really frustrating spot to be in. And it

24:34

can help it can kind of contribute

24:36

to you losing faith in the

24:38

big organizations that you've been told to trust.

24:41

So I do feel like having that shortlist of

24:43

sources of information, especially

24:46

around health information is really helpful.

24:48

I think there's also just so many things that you can

24:51

do to be a little bit more discerning of

24:54

the messages that you're getting. So some of the things

24:56

that I say to should be kind of red

24:59

flags in my book would be

25:01

things like if often

25:03

a publication or an article or blogger,

25:06

anyone on Twitter or anything. Often throws

25:08

around the phrase research shows

25:11

without actually showing you

25:13

the peer reviewed research. I feel

25:15

like we see that lot with wellness ads, lot

25:17

with health information or health advice. Like,

25:20

oh, this is evidence based. This is

25:22

research backed, doctor based,

25:24

and but you can't actually see that research.

25:26

It would be a red

25:27

flag. Or you see the

25:29

research, like, I've noticed this

25:31

in some of the functional and integrated medicine

25:34

spaces that I've been looking at lately for the book.

25:36

They'll say, studies have shown and

25:38

linked to one study that's like in

25:41

nineteen people or that's in rats

25:43

or something and it's kind of like, okay, is that you

25:46

showing your research because

25:48

that's also not that research doesn't

25:50

actually support that conclusion.

25:52

Exactly. Actually yeah. And you had talked about

25:54

this before, like, correlation versus causation.

25:56

So, yes. Look at like, click

25:59

on that research. You know, do that digging and

26:01

click on that research. And see,

26:03

you know, was it in mice? Was

26:05

it an in vitro study?

26:07

So, like, not really in people at

26:10

all. Is it something that

26:12

they found an association or a correlation,

26:15

but not necessarily enough definitive

26:17

research to say x causes

26:20

by? And is this one study

26:22

that found something a little weird, like

26:24

you said, nineteen people, but

26:26

it goes against the broad body of

26:28

evidence. On this. And that's

26:30

I think the same for people too. You

26:32

know, we often see someone

26:35

who maybe has really impressive

26:37

credentials and they're saying something

26:39

that's totally against the grain of

26:42

the major medical organizations in

26:44

a certain field. When someone's

26:46

in total opposition, the rest of those recommendations,

26:49

I would just be a little wary because especially

26:52

if they're promising, like, this is it.

26:54

This is the secret. I promise

26:57

you the broader medical organizations would

26:59

want you to know that secret too.

27:01

We would all probably be out of something like

27:03

this a whole lot faster if that were the case.

27:06

So just kind of always

27:08

asking, where is this

27:10

information coming from? And

27:12

to your point, like then asking, how.

27:15

Like, show me your work. If

27:18

x causes by, like, how.

27:20

And I think you see that a lot with things

27:23

like supplements or

27:25

other kind of wellness fabs that something

27:28

like celery juice or something that

27:30

has purported a ton of benefits

27:33

to, like, every health system

27:35

in your body. And it

27:37

has basically no barrier to entry. Like,

27:40

you just take this thing and

27:42

everything is gonna get better. I think

27:44

the first question should be like, okay, how?

27:46

Like, if you can show the mechanism of

27:49

action that would go that would link,

27:51

you know, how this is curing whatever

27:53

condition or how it's lowering blood

27:55

pressure or how it's helping you sleep.

27:58

Like, being able to show

28:00

the work shouldn't be a

28:02

high bar in the marketing

28:05

strategy of stuff like this. So those

28:07

are just a few of the tips, but there's so many.

28:09

I mean, there's so many ways that we can be

28:11

a little bit more discerning of this stuff. But

28:13

I understand that again, We just

28:16

don't often have the time or the resources,

28:18

and you shouldn't have to

28:21

do all of this digging.

28:23

For every little thing. What? It should

28:26

more be on the content creators

28:28

and the people giving more

28:30

airtime to these topics. To be

28:32

doing that research for you. So that's

28:34

again why I just got so passionate about

28:37

creating accessible, you know, responsible

28:39

health content because I just felt like be honest,

28:42

shouldn't be on the reader all the time, but

28:44

it unfortunately is. So I think

28:46

it's it's worth understanding how

28:49

to do a little bit more digging and

28:51

to Google a little bit more

28:53

smarter

28:55

around these top topics to just kind of understand,

28:58

like, where this content comes from?

29:00

Yeah. I mean, that's that's so important.

29:02

And I think I am also so

29:04

big on scientific bases

29:07

and understanding evidence behind

29:09

things. And, you know,

29:11

that when you mentioned, like, if

29:13

something goes in the face of, like, established

29:16

medical research or, you

29:18

know, the scientific positions of

29:20

major organizations and stuff, I'm like,

29:22

yes, that's me for most

29:25

things except for when it comes

29:27

to like food and weight loss and diet

29:29

advice, you know, not food per se, but

29:32

weight loss and diet culture,

29:34

basically. You know? And I I feel like

29:37

I and many people in the intuitive eating

29:39

space and sort of general anti

29:41

diet space, which really

29:43

is, you know, a lot of people in the eating

29:46

disorder community as well and people

29:48

who've done research around eating disorders.

29:50

I think this is where some of this comes

29:52

from. You know, this understanding that

29:54

a lot of what is put out by the CDC

29:57

about weight and weight loss and

29:59

other major medical organizations is

30:01

really problematic and doesn't

30:03

address weight stigma, weight cycling

30:06

like the harms of those things that we see

30:08

in a vast body of scientific research

30:11

doesn't address disordered eating which is so

30:13

rampant and which

30:15

is often triggered by weight loss advice.

30:18

And, you know, that there when

30:20

you kind of dig into, like, the politics of

30:22

how the CDC guidelines

30:24

on quote unquote healthy weight got

30:26

developed. It's super messy

30:29

and influenced by pharmaceutical

30:31

industry money and pharmaceutical

30:34

industry money specifically around

30:36

like diet and weight loss drugs, you know, these

30:39

people who are doing consulting pharmaceutical

30:41

companies on the development of diet and weight

30:43

loss drugs were the people who were

30:45

creating the guidelines and calling

30:49

obesity a disease, that

30:52

whole thing of that label being applied

30:54

to larger body size in twenty thirteen.

30:57

Against the American Medical Association's own

31:00

committee's recommendations. You know, they had

31:02

a committee researching whether that should that

31:04

label should be applied to higher

31:06

body weight and the committee said no, and

31:08

then the organization overruled it

31:10

and labeled so called obesity disease.

31:13

Anyway, So when you look into

31:15

that stuff, you know, I think it can be really

31:18

frustrating and sort of make a lot

31:20

of people, I think, wary of institutions

31:22

like the CDC if they've if they've experienced

31:25

weight stigma or if they are someone

31:27

struggling with an eating disorder and weight loss advice

31:29

has been really harmful to them. Like, I think

31:32

seeing that stuff being pushed by

31:34

an otherwise fairly trustworthy organization.

31:38

I mean, I think some of their communication

31:40

and the pandemic has been problematic as

31:42

well. But, you know, it's messy. It can be

31:44

messy to sort of discern.

31:46

And, you know, from the out side, think people

31:48

looking in on me and some

31:51

of my colleagues in the anti diet

31:53

space, dietitians therapists, some doctors.

31:56

Some people in other professions, you know, like,

31:58

that we're putting out this information

32:00

that's going against maybe this this

32:02

sort of larger body of

32:05

the medical establishment. You know,

32:07

I've had people say to me like, well, how is

32:09

anti diet any different than antibiotics? Right?

32:12

And, like, oh, gosh. So

32:15

which, I mean, I have thoughts on, but I'm curious

32:17

to hear your thoughts too on on how to

32:19

sort of determine, like, what is a

32:22

valid area of scientific debate

32:25

or disagreement within field that's

32:27

like based on valid evidence

32:29

and what is something that's

32:31

totally fringy or, you know,

32:34

wellness fad that isn't back, like like celery

32:36

juice. Right? A wellness fad that isn't backed by science.

32:38

Where in that case, the guy who promotes salaried

32:41

juice literally

32:41

says, like, there is no science I

32:44

was told by a spirit, but this is -- Right.

32:47

Right. That's a red flag number one, usually

32:49

a red flag. Yeah.

32:51

Yeah. It's it's so tricky. I mean,

32:53

I think, again, to your point, it really comes

32:55

back to if people

32:58

did know where those

33:00

recommendations and guidelines around,

33:03

you know, BMI, around weight,

33:05

around terms

33:07

like that. Like, I think that they

33:09

would be outraged to understand, like,

33:11

how far back that goes and often

33:13

that was just, like, in a

33:15

few old white men, like it how,

33:18

like, undiverse and

33:20

how limited our research is

33:22

that governs those guidelines and recommendations.

33:25

So I think that that's kind of another

33:27

example of, yes, if someone's

33:29

going against the grain of established

33:32

guidelines that when you look into those guidelines,

33:34

there's not a whole lot of there's

33:37

not really a leg to stand on with, you know,

33:39

the research that went into them. Think

33:41

having a better understanding of

33:43

where those recommendations come from,

33:45

where the guidelines come from. Actually,

33:48

understanding the research

33:50

that went into that and who the

33:53

sample size was when this research

33:55

was done, think an example

33:58

that I always come back to is like the birth control

34:00

efficacy rates that research

34:02

was done so long ago. And it

34:04

doesn't seem to be like continued research

34:07

every year. Like, it to me feels like,

34:09

yes, of course, it's the same birth control method,

34:11

but we're still using data from, like, nineteen

34:14

nineties. Like, it just I

34:16

think a lot of people would be outraged when

34:18

they see what research

34:21

goes into the guidelines and recommendations that

34:23

are coming from these big organizations. So

34:25

it it does make you lose

34:28

a little bit of faith in that. But I think,

34:30

again, like understanding the limitation of

34:33

when the organizations are doing something from

34:35

a public health standpoint versus personal

34:38

health standpoint and then it's something

34:40

like weight, it's something like diet culture.

34:42

Should we really be going to

34:44

those big organizations and

34:47

saying, yeah, like, tell me how to eat. Like,

34:49

no, that shouldn't be the same for every person.

34:52

And we shouldn't necessarily be

34:54

taking their advice on that. So, yeah,

34:56

and and the parallel between or

34:58

not even parallel. wouldn't wanna say

35:00

that, but the note that you got about

35:03

is is anti diet like anti vax.

35:06

Wow. I wouldn't even know where to respond

35:08

to that other than, again, like, looking back

35:11

at the research

35:14

that you and your colleagues are going

35:16

against in the

35:18

anti diet movement is

35:20

to shed light on the limitations of

35:23

that research. And so I think that

35:25

that is where the

35:27

healthy scientific debate comes in.

35:30

If there are huge limitations of research

35:32

that we've been overlooking for many

35:34

years, we should be looking

35:36

into that. We should that

35:38

should be a more transparent discussion.

35:41

But then understanding that,

35:44

quote unquote, I did my own research, you

35:46

know, is not the same as the broad

35:48

studies. The large

35:51

peer reviewed studies on something

35:53

isn't necessarily the same

35:55

as, you know, someone googling around.

35:57

So I guess that would that would be.

35:59

How I would respond to that, but it's

36:02

tricky. It's tricky.

36:04

Yeah. And, I mean, I would also say, like, I've

36:06

I've been thinking a lot about misinformation

36:08

and the anti vaccination movement for this new

36:11

book. And one interesting

36:13

distinction between, like, conspiracy theories

36:16

and actual conspiracies that I've

36:18

come across in the recent, you know, people

36:21

who have studied conspiracy theories and are

36:23

experts on conspiracy theories. Have made

36:25

this distinction between like the

36:27

type of thinking that can

36:29

uncover a genuine conspiracy versus

36:32

the type of thinking that characterizes conspiracy

36:34

theories. And they say

36:36

that genuine conspiracies, which

36:39

are things like, you know, watergate or

36:41

the Tuskegee experiment being covered, you

36:43

know, the the true nature of that being

36:46

covered up and things like that

36:48

Gueren sort of like a pretty narrow scope.

36:50

It's not something wildly far

36:52

fetched. Like, Bill Gates wants to

36:54

inject you with a microchip in order to, like,

36:56

control your brain and or kill you or keep

36:58

you from reproducing or somehow it's There's

37:01

just many weird ideas piled

37:03

on top of one another Gueren. genuine

37:05

conspiracy is something like much narrower in

37:08

scope. And the kind of thinking

37:10

that can uncover that is

37:12

what they call conventional thinking, which is

37:14

using critical thinking and, like, rigorous

37:17

inquiry, but also not

37:19

over interpreting all data

37:21

you find in service of the theory.

37:24

Right, which is where you get conspiracy theories

37:26

finding, like, things that are wildly unconnected

37:29

and connecting them or not

37:32

using, like, really established methods

37:34

of researching, but kind of going on these

37:37

weird deep Internet dives and stuff

37:39

like that. I think there is actually a lot

37:41

of conventional thinking ironically in

37:43

the anti its space where it might seem

37:45

like there's a it's a really unconventional approach

37:48

to weight and health, but actually, like,

37:50

there's rigorous research happening.

37:53

There's people looking at data in

37:55

critical ways, thinking critically not

37:57

overinterpreting, not sort of making wild

38:00

leaps. And so, you know,

38:02

versus like in the anti VAC

38:04

space, unfortunately, there

38:06

is a lot of that kind conspiracy conspiracies

38:09

thinking there, which is making

38:11

these wild connections and and things that

38:13

don't have scientific backing and

38:15

people like Andrew Wakefield who

38:17

were sort of like the basis of the movement

38:20

at first being totally discredited and having

38:22

the research really undermined and

38:25

retracted. And of course, then

38:27

the conspiracy mindset with that is

38:29

to say, well, they pushed him out and he retracted

38:31

his stuff because he was onto something

38:34

real and

38:35

big pharma wanted to shut it down to, like, keep

38:37

their profits or whatever. Yeah. And

38:39

it also just reinforces again

38:42

us to investigate our

38:44

own biases in things of, like, the way

38:46

that we look at information,

38:48

the way that we seek out information, and

38:51

we're always going to gravitate

38:54

towards brands or content

38:57

that does validate our own previously

38:59

held beliefs. So I think just

39:01

being aware of that and being

39:03

aware of, you know, when you are investigating something

39:06

that has to do with your health or

39:08

that has to do with, you know, a choice

39:10

that you're making about your health. Are

39:13

you just constantly seeking out information

39:15

to kinda confirm what you're hoping to

39:17

confirm? Or are you

39:19

pulling from a broad range

39:21

of who's to say what's

39:24

responsible beforehand or publisher

39:26

about a certain topic? But, yeah, like, are

39:28

you pulling from, you know, a

39:30

larger pool of evidence than just

39:32

things that are validating

39:35

the view that you already have? And understanding

39:38

how the content that you're consuming might

39:41

have done the same, you know, you had talked about

39:43

before seeing some headlines or

39:45

or seeing some stories that you

39:47

look into it and it's like, okay, that does seem like

39:49

they are commenting on a valid study

39:51

that just came out. It does seem like there's

39:54

kind of an angle, maybe telling you that

39:56

bacon's gonna kill you or something,

39:58

and they're linking to a study, so it

40:00

seems pretty legit. Maybe bacon's gonna

40:02

kill you. But then understanding,

40:05

like, okay, are they telling the whole story, like,

40:07

digging into that research and just kind

40:09

of taking a bit more critical lens

40:12

it's hard with conversations like the

40:14

anti Vax conversation to not say

40:16

that it's not just like a personal health

40:19

choice, you know, in in some things, I think, to

40:21

if you have a conspiratorial world view and

40:23

you feel like, well, I'm just making

40:25

this decision for me with something

40:27

like being anti vax. We

40:30

have very good data showing

40:32

how it does affect at the population level

40:34

as

40:34

well. So I think those conversations are

40:36

just harder to have then just say, oh, well,

40:39

do what you feel is right. Totally.

40:41

Yeah. It's it's other people are being

40:43

affected by your choices as well, so it's

40:45

not just you know, you do

40:47

you. And I think, unfortunately,

40:50

the way that our healthcare

40:52

system is today and the way that, like, the Internet

40:55

and social media have influenced the discourse

40:57

around health and wellness. There

40:59

is so much of that just like you do

41:01

you, like pick and choose, what works

41:03

for you, and creating

41:06

your sort of pastiche of like

41:08

personalized wellness practices

41:11

and things like that, which, you know,

41:13

I think on one hand, like,

41:15

I who am I to be grudge you

41:17

know, I would never begrudge someone something

41:20

that works for them. But on the other hand, I think

41:23

there are a lot of things that are purported to

41:25

work that are actually doing harm.

41:27

And that's where that's what really frustrates

41:30

me, both as someone who is, you know,

41:32

health professional now myself, and journalist

41:34

covering health and also someone who has

41:37

all these health conditions and has personally been

41:39

through so much in trying to

41:41

figure out diagnoses and treatments

41:43

worked for me and who was so susceptible

41:46

at one time. And, you know, even

41:48

still who knows, maybe one day, I'll fall down another

41:51

rabbit hole with one of these things. Like, I

41:53

I feel very empathetic towards

41:56

people who get kind of

41:58

pulled in by these promises or

42:00

feel like they have nothing else

42:02

to turn to, no other options, and so

42:04

are trying things that are really unproven or

42:06

wild and out there and feel

42:09

like that's the last ditch

42:11

effort because nothing else has

42:12

worked. Howard Bauchner: Yeah, it's something I talk about

42:14

a lot in my book that I don't think that anyone

42:17

should feel bad or

42:19

dumb or any or silly,

42:21

you know, for trying these things or for

42:24

liking these things as talking specifically

42:26

about things like wellness fabs, supplements,

42:29

things like that. The latest trend

42:31

that you're seeing on TikTok around your health,

42:33

I don't think that it's

42:35

the fault, you know, of each person trying these

42:37

things. I do think that people need to understand that

42:39

this is kind of the wellness industry is

42:41

kind of predatory. In a lot of ways

42:44

because it is all

42:46

about kind of commercializing wellness,

42:49

commercializing how you take care of your body.

42:52

And giving you options that

42:54

are easy and simple and

42:56

have tons of promises. And

42:58

I think the target audience for a lot of these

43:00

things are people that really

43:03

can't afford to keep

43:06

trying things that don't work. Honestly. Like,

43:08

they're often targeting people that

43:11

maybe don't have access to a primary care provider

43:13

who and that's why they're looking

43:15

for something with easier at home. They're

43:18

maybe targeting people that are

43:20

not able to or

43:22

maybe are uninsured or underinsured

43:26

and are thinking that this is an option

43:28

that's going to be the same as

43:30

what they might get with traditional medical care.

43:33

And sometimes if it is actually

43:35

increasing accessibility of

43:37

any kind

43:38

of, you know, certain health access, like that's great.

43:40

But often,

43:41

it is, you know, overpromising. And

43:44

so that's what really frustrates me

43:46

too. Like, I don't obviously think

43:48

that people shouldn't try things that they wanna

43:50

try. If you wanna experiment again

43:52

with something, it's more so if you

43:55

are trying a wellness fad or

43:58

trying a supplement or trying some DIY

44:00

health thing in lieu

44:04

of getting the care that you need. And again,

44:06

that might be because you don't have access to

44:08

the care that you need. So that's more of a systemic

44:10

problem a personal

44:11

one. It's not personal failing

44:13

by any means. But that's where I think

44:15

wellness fads get into the more dangerous

44:17

territory. I agree. And I mean,

44:20

especially thinking about supplements too. I think

44:22

it's worth mentioning and

44:24

highlighting to people that supplements are

44:27

largely unregulated industry, like

44:29

Gueren not regulated before they go to

44:31

market. The, you know,

44:33

regulators can only pull them from the

44:35

market because of a law that was

44:37

put into place in 1990s based

44:39

largely on supplement industry lobbying. The

44:42

FDA can't regulate these

44:45

things before they go to market and can only pull

44:47

them off if there's enough, like, consumer complaints

44:50

to make them look into something. And

44:52

the regulation there is so sparse

44:54

I think both because of lack of

44:56

funding for that sort of regulation

44:59

and perhaps more problematically

45:02

there are people who have worked

45:04

in the supplement industry and been supplement

45:06

industry like obvious and

45:09

worked for supplement industry

45:11

groups that then go into regulation

45:14

at the FDA and then go back to supplement

45:16

industry. There's a lot of cross pollination

45:18

Gueren. super problematic, but it's been

45:20

interesting, like, talking to

45:22

some journalists about my new book

45:24

and, you know, some of these ideas and, like,

45:27

I've had a couple people ask me about various

45:29

diet supplements recently and I mentioned this

45:31

idea that the supplement industry is barely

45:34

regulated and they were sort of floored like

45:36

even journalist reporting in the space didn't

45:39

realize this. And I think this is something

45:41

that, like, the general public really has

45:43

very little awareness of.

45:45

I think it's super dangerous and super

45:47

potentially harmful because there are

45:50

things that end up in supplements like literal

45:52

drugs, you know, that nobody

45:54

knows about until something

45:57

gets reported to the FDA and then it's like

45:59

comes out

46:00

that, oh, this adrenal supplement actually has

46:03

thyroid hormone in it, and that's why it

46:05

feels like it's working or it has

46:06

steroids, you

46:07

know, like it's wild. Yeah.

46:10

And I think that that also just shows like

46:12

have our mindset around quote

46:15

unquote mainstream, you know, medical

46:17

care versus something that's maybe

46:20

more. Hulu or something or,

46:22

you know, supplements or alternative remedies

46:25

because as much as I

46:27

can, of course, understand the distress with

46:29

pharmaceutical industries and mainstream

46:31

medical care. There are studies,

46:33

there are researchers and claims to back

46:36

up the claims of the FDA

46:38

regulated Medicaid FDA approved medications,

46:40

whereas with these supplements, you

46:43

don't actually know what's in them

46:45

you know what the marketers are saying is in them.

46:48

And so that's just like an interesting

46:50

thing that, like, because this

46:52

has really safe and

46:54

conversational packaging and

46:57

has a nice feel

46:59

to it and it feels like this is something

47:01

that is supposed to

47:03

help you more than or

47:06

in a more empathetic way

47:08

than mainstream medical care, but, like, does

47:10

it have any research to back it

47:12

up or any regulation for you to know what

47:15

you're putting in your body?

47:16

Right. Like, I I definitely empathize

47:19

with people who are concerned about the pharmaceutical

47:21

industry's influence too because I've seen

47:23

the problematic nature of that influence in

47:26

the weight loss and diet industry.

47:29

And also, I think, you

47:31

know, for all its problems,

47:33

like, it's regulated. The pharmaceutical industry

47:36

is regulated and things have to be shown

47:38

to be effective and safe before they go

47:40

to market and look at

47:42

bumped back for further research if they're not

47:44

versus supplements that

47:47

claim to be quote unquote natural. And like

47:49

you said, it sort of like has a nice feel to

47:51

it. It's like, it feels safer

47:54

to people. And I think that's the marketing.

47:56

That's the way that they sort of hook

47:58

you is, like, it doesn't feel like a

48:00

drug even though there might actually be

48:02

literal drugs in what you're

48:04

taking. Howard Bauchner: Right. And I think

48:06

understanding that, like, all natural is

48:08

marketing. Like, that's also even just

48:10

the term natural on a label isn't

48:13

regulated. So that

48:15

just is shocking? Does anybody do that? Like, anything

48:18

that you see on the front packaging of

48:20

anything, whether it's probiotics or

48:22

supplements or skin care, that

48:25

is marketing and they can put whatever

48:27

they want on there. So I think just understanding

48:29

that that you can still have like a

48:32

nice warm fuzzy feeling about product

48:34

and I certainly have too. And

48:36

then I tried it and it it

48:38

worked or didn't work, but it's more

48:40

understanding that the

48:42

marketing is not necessarily what you

48:44

should be looking into if you're really trying to decide

48:47

is this something that belongs on or in

48:49

or near my

48:50

body? It should be where is

48:52

the evidence behind the claims that they're making?

48:54

Well, yeah, thinking about that too. I'm curious

48:57

to hear your thoughts on, like, how certain things become

48:59

wellness fads while others don't.

49:01

Because I've noticed that we have these

49:03

fabs that in some ways kind of keep getting

49:05

recycled in different forms, but

49:08

also that, you know, there might be something that is

49:10

kind of low key you know,

49:12

popular in like naturopathic circles

49:14

or whatever, but it might not rise

49:16

to the level of wellness fad for years

49:18

and then suddenly it's

49:19

everywhere. Do you have a sense of

49:21

how that happens? I mean, I think

49:24

a few things, I would say, the first media,

49:26

the media does play a huge role. There.

49:28

Like, there's such a fine line to

49:30

working in a space between wanting to

49:32

debunk something, like, a the current

49:35

wellness fad that's trending. But also

49:37

knowing that you're giving that trend

49:39

more airtime and you're allowing that

49:41

kind of snowball into the zeitgeist. We

49:44

actually had a role when I was itself after

49:46

a while that we wouldn't debunk, you

49:48

know, a garbage wellness trend if

49:51

they were really niche. Like, if say

49:53

our friends and family, you

49:54

know, outside of New York City and LA, hadn't

49:56

heard of them yet. If this

49:58

didn't seem like this was something that was super pervasive,

50:01

we just, you know, wouldn't write

50:04

a post on, oh, no. Don't buy into

50:06

that just to enter

50:08

that conversation because it really was like

50:11

you said at the beginning of the call, like

50:13

miss information often does travel

50:15

faster just because you see it more, you have

50:17

that availability bias. So

50:19

I think just weighing it, the media

50:22

weighing in in a responsible lens

50:24

is is one huge thing. From

50:26

a personal perspective and just kind of covering

50:28

the space for a long time, I would say that

50:31

the things that I noticed that usually became

50:33

wellness trends were things that

50:35

had, you know, a huge list of benefits

50:37

attributed to them. Again, not necessarily

50:40

saying that those were all evidence based, but

50:42

something that someone said that this

50:44

can, you know, affect every one of your health

50:46

system, any one of your systems in your

50:48

body which is, again, usually your

50:50

first red to flag, but something like celery

50:53

juice, like turmeric, like probiotics. These

50:55

are ones that we saw kind of rise to the top

50:57

recently. Even though, of course, like,

50:59

a tumor has been being used for so many

51:01

different uses in different cultures forever,

51:04

but making it this wellness fab of, like, added

51:07

to your latte and now your latte is healthy

51:09

with something that was like, where did this come

51:11

from? And I think it is, you know,

51:13

from people, whoever those people

51:15

are that have a lot of influence usually

51:17

on the Internet, attributing

51:20

just a ton of benefits to something.

51:22

And that's something being something

51:25

that doesn't really require

51:27

a ton of behavior change on your part.

51:29

Taking a supplement or drinking a drink first

51:31

thing in the morning, like, doesn't change your life

51:33

in a huge way or, I mean, it doesn't require

51:36

a ton of behavior change. So I think

51:38

it catches on because it has kind of that, like,

51:40

why not factor? People

51:43

think, like, oh, why not? Like, what's the harm?

51:46

So I think that that was something I saw,

51:48

and once something has that halo

51:50

effect, it seems like it

51:52

doesn't really matter if there's any, like,

51:54

real science to it at that point to some people

51:56

because it might you might be getting benefits

51:59

just from participating in this. Thing, you

52:01

know, and seeing yourself as a person who

52:03

drinks celery juice first thing in morning

52:05

or a person who puts teamwork in their

52:07

latte, like, The placebo effect

52:09

is very real too. And again, not to say

52:12

that. That is what's at

52:14

stake for every wellness trend or anything like this.

52:16

But I think that these

52:18

trends kind of catch on when

52:20

they don't require a lot from

52:22

you, but you think that you might get

52:24

a lot of benefits from them. That's

52:26

really interesting. And I feel like it like,

52:29

the marketing of it does kinda make it seem

52:31

like it's this one magic thing. It's

52:33

It's almost like the magic pill. Right? Like,

52:35

you know, think a lot of wellness

52:37

culture and alternative medicine criticises mainstream

52:40

or conventional medicine for being pill

52:43

popping or pill pushing. Right? It's like take this

52:45

pill, you'll fix your symptoms, and it doesn't

52:47

get to the root cause. That's sort of the

52:49

going line about conventional

52:51

medicine. And yet, I think there's a similar

52:53

spirit in how a

52:56

lot of food cures or

52:58

even like elimination diets. Like, I've actually seen

53:01

low fodmap be that for some people

53:03

too, where it's like, you know, cut the, you know, do

53:05

this difficult elimination diet or whatever,

53:07

but then it's gonna fix all of these symptoms.

53:09

It's gonna have these effects across

53:11

all of these different body systems. And

53:14

or, you know, even if it is just something like,

53:16

drink this drink in the morning first

53:18

thing and all of your ills would

53:20

be cured or whatever. There's like an

53:22

accumulation of those things because the type

53:25

of person or the you know, the person

53:27

who's susceptible to that, right, or who's in place

53:29

where they're vulnerable to that

53:32

is when I speak from experience

53:34

here, you know, as as being that person in different

53:36

points of my life is also vulnerable

53:38

to many other things selling that

53:41

solution. And then so suddenly it becomes, I'm not

53:43

only drinking this thing first thing in the

53:45

morning, but also doing these ten

53:47

to twenty other daily behaviors that

53:50

are supposed to be like one magic thing. And

53:52

it's sort of piles up to where

53:54

I think it can take over people's lives and that's

53:56

where like the concept of Orthorexia I

53:59

think comes in, but I think even people who don't

54:01

really identify with the

54:03

idea of Orthorexia, which

54:05

I didn't when I was very much in it, you

54:07

know. I actually wrote a brief

54:09

blog post about it back in, like, two thousand

54:11

six for Ciao. I was blogging

54:14

for this this food magazine. I came across a

54:16

piece about Orthorexia and posted

54:18

something about it and, you know, totally didn't register.

54:20

That's what was going on for me. Right? So I think

54:23

it's easy to sort of miss that that's

54:25

what's happening when you're accumulating

54:27

all these different behaviors and wellness

54:30

practices and

54:31

and, you know, being susceptible to all these

54:33

wellness fads. Yeah. And it

54:35

also, like, sometimes the lines

54:37

your identity with a certain

54:40

group or identity, you know, kind of our

54:43

our desire to fit in to different groups

54:45

or to align ourselves kind of with the fact for

54:47

safety, for community, you know, I think

54:49

a lot of times you see these wellness pads

54:51

take off within certain groups or communities

54:53

like keto, you know, diet being big in

54:56

the cross fit community or like biohacking

54:58

in Silicon Valley. think

55:00

there's also an aspect of this that

55:02

is wanting to align

55:05

with a certain identity, and so

55:08

you're changing kind of your behaviors in that way. And

55:10

so again, who's to say if

55:12

that one behavior caused,

55:15

you know, XYZ benefits or if it

55:17

was kind of, like you said, an accumulation of

55:20

many of them. Of aligning

55:22

yourself with a certain group that

55:24

made you act, behave, feel,

55:26

think differently.

55:28

Yeah. I mean, I also think too about

55:30

the idea of regression to the

55:32

meme, you know, that, like, over

55:34

time, people's symptoms

55:36

are going to wane naturally. Like,

55:39

that's the case for many different diseases

55:41

or even for, like, autoimmune conditions of which

55:43

I have a couple. It's like you have flares

55:45

and the remission and flares and remissions sort

55:47

of without really doing anything.

55:50

And you can have you can be on medication and have

55:52

that happen or you can not be on medication and

55:54

have that and so when you're not

55:56

on medication often the flares are worse.

55:58

So, you know, there's this sort of cyclical

56:01

nature to a lot of symptoms and I think

56:03

the marketing of wellness culture

56:06

really does a great job of taking credit for

56:08

the remissions or the waning

56:10

of symptoms and like has

56:12

all these ways of deflecting blame for when

56:14

the symptoms come back. It's like you didn't do it

56:16

hard enough or you didn't do it long enough or didn't

56:19

take a high enough dose or you have to add this other

56:21

thing or you have

56:21

to, you know, spin around three times

56:23

while you're drinking it or whatever it is. Right.

56:27

But again, I I just feel like I can, like,

56:29

the autoimmune disease community

56:31

too. It's, again, like, a a community that is targeted

56:33

so often. By, like,

56:36

predatory wellness practices. I think

56:38

for that reason because that

56:41

target consumer is somebody who

56:43

is, like, at your with them, like you've tried

56:45

everything you feel like or are

56:47

being dismissed by your medical providers.

56:50

You just want something to work.

56:52

You do have that like why not factor.

56:55

So I think just, you know, really

56:57

being discerning of the

56:59

messages that you're exposing yourself to

57:02

when you are at that, like, vulnerable state,

57:06

but also things that you do choose to spend

57:08

your time and money and resources on

57:10

because just because something is

57:12

not part of mainstream

57:14

medical culture, you

57:16

know, just because something says it's natural

57:19

or alternative does not

57:21

mean that it is necessarily going to be safer

57:23

or going to

57:24

be, you know, that magic pill. Totally

57:26

very well said. Well, I'm curious as sort

57:28

of a final question. Just

57:30

how what would you leave people with as some ways

57:33

of spotting misinformation online

57:36

and, you know, especially on social

57:38

media and protecting themselves against

57:40

this predatory, wellness culture

57:43

targeting that happens. So

57:45

one of my favorite tips that I always

57:47

go back to is this

57:49

idea of looking out over fear

57:51

based finger pointing and fear

57:53

mongering in these wellness fads and

57:56

just even wellness companies, like in their branding

57:58

and their marketing. What

58:00

I mean by fear based finger pointing is

58:02

that their whole marketing strategy

58:05

kind of hinges on, like, this thing that

58:07

you've been doing is killing you or, like,

58:09

this thing is toxic. Our thing

58:11

is better. Our thing is natural.

58:13

And we're Gueren. We get you.

58:15

You know, we have we have

58:17

science. You know, we are built

58:19

by women or something that they're just

58:21

trying to get at, like, we're better. What you've

58:23

been using as harmful. And

58:26

not to say that they don't necessarily

58:28

have an argument sometimes, you know, sometimes

58:30

they are. Very much in an industry

58:32

where it's like, yeah, there should have been

58:35

better research in that industry or

58:37

better regulation in that industry. But

58:39

sometimes there's not. And

58:41

it's just a lot of marketing. And

58:45

I think a a good example of this is,

58:47

like, all natural or,

58:49

like, organic tampons and, like,

58:51

saying, like, the regular tampons are,

58:53

like, who knows within them? Like,

58:55

that's actually a a pretty regulated industry,

58:58

and they do have to pass multiple

59:01

checks in the manufacturing process

59:04

and all of that. And, yes, there were some shady

59:06

practices back in the day, but we've

59:08

allegedly eliminated those. And

59:10

if you're not having any issues,

59:12

any sensitivity, you

59:15

know, your template's not killing you. And

59:17

so I think we see that a lot with

59:19

skin care. We see it a lot with supplements

59:21

and just kind of anything that have that all natural

59:24

label. And I think this really can be,

59:26

you know, said, the anti vaccination

59:28

movement too to some extent. Like, it's

59:30

a lot of praying on people's fears.

59:33

That this thing that they've been

59:35

unknowingly or knowingly putting

59:37

their body or putting into their body it's

59:40

harming them and that they just, you know, didn't

59:42

know better, but now they do. So

59:44

I think that is a huge red

59:46

flag. To look out for as if the whole

59:48

marketing kinda hinges on, like, finger

59:51

pointing of this thing that you've been doing as

59:53

wrong. Or anything that just kind of

59:55

like makes you feel like crap when

59:57

you're reading it. And it's kind

59:59

of about making you feel insecure

1:00:02

or you know, highlighting some aspect

1:00:05

of your body that needs changing because

1:00:07

their product or

1:00:09

the, you know, angle of their story that

1:00:11

they're going after is around

1:00:14

putting you in that vulnerable state that you do

1:00:16

feel insecure about this thing already. So

1:00:18

payment that makes you feel like shit or makes you

1:00:20

feel like what you've been doing is showing you

1:00:23

even though you have no evidence to state

1:00:25

that it's probably a red

1:00:27

flag and I would do a little bit more

1:00:29

digging, be a little bit more discerning of that.

1:00:31

I think that's great advice. I love the idea

1:00:34

too of just like being aware of how you

1:00:36

feel when you're consuming something.

1:00:38

That's been such a helpful

1:00:40

guiding force for me in terms of connecting

1:00:43

to my body and connecting to, you

1:00:45

know, how the anxiety might be getting

1:00:48

triggered by certain headlines

1:00:50

or certain ways of framing

1:00:53

things and stuff like that because I think there there's

1:00:55

a real difference between offering

1:00:57

a solution or something

1:01:00

that's helpful for a problem that exists

1:01:02

and offering something really valuable

1:01:04

versus kinda playing on people's

1:01:06

fears and saying that, like, this product

1:01:09

is the one and only thing that can solve your

1:01:11

problem.

1:01:12

Yeah. And like you said, have you been scrolling

1:01:14

through your feet and realizing that there

1:01:16

are a whole lot of stories from a particular

1:01:18

brand that or their handle that

1:01:21

is often something that you're either clicking

1:01:23

on and then getting anxious about or like

1:01:25

scrolling past because you're like, oh my gosh, I

1:01:27

I can't even read that right now. Like,

1:01:29

it's probably time to unfollow that brand.

1:01:32

Like, you do not need to be

1:01:34

subjecting yourself to those kind of messages

1:01:37

all the time.

1:01:38

Yeah. Yeah. On following is such

1:01:40

a great tool for keeping yourself less

1:01:43

affected by those things. Oh, yeah. Team

1:01:45

on follow. Yeah. Or

1:01:47

team delete your social media as as I

1:01:50

know. Yeah. You

1:01:52

know, that's a that's a far bridge for many

1:01:54

people, and I haven't actually deleted my niche.

1:01:56

Don't spend any time on it, but because

1:01:58

it still feels like it I have to be there, you know.

1:02:00

Like, there's some amount of necessity.

1:02:03

But But yeah, I think whatever

1:02:05

you can do to kind of expose yourself

1:02:07

to that stuff less is

1:02:09

helpful. Bauchner: Yeah, sadly, you

1:02:11

can't just get away from those ads

1:02:13

on the subway. They're like,

1:02:16

this thing that you need, that you didn't know

1:02:18

you needed, for this thing on your body

1:02:20

that you didn't know you were supposed to be embarrassed

1:02:22

about. Right. It's

1:02:24

it's with you for your whole forty five minute ride.

1:02:26

Yeah. You can't even get away in the real world.

1:02:29

That's a challenge. Well, thank

1:02:31

you so much, Casey. This is really lovely and

1:02:34

would love to know where people can find you and

1:02:36

learn more about your work and get

1:02:38

your book.

1:02:39

Yeah. Thank you so much, Christy. I am

1:02:41

so honored that you can find me

1:02:43

on Instagram or Twitter

1:02:45

at Gueren. And

1:02:48

you can find my book on Amazon or

1:02:50

anywhere where that you thought buy books.

1:02:52

It's probably nothing. The stress left

1:02:54

guy into dealing with health anxiety, wellness

1:02:56

fads, and overhyped headlines.

1:02:58

I love it and such a great title too because

1:03:01

I think many of us have the experience

1:03:03

of being

1:03:04

like, Okay. It's probably nothing.

1:03:06

But what if it's not? But what if

1:03:08

it's not? That's my internal monologue

1:03:10

always. So it was kind of the first

1:03:12

title I gravitated toward.

1:03:14

I love it. Well, thank you again so

1:03:16

much. It's great talking with you.

1:03:18

Thank you so much. So

1:03:20

that's our show. Thanks so much to

1:03:22

Casey Gueren for being here, and thanks

1:03:24

to you for listening. This episode

1:03:27

was brought to you by my upcoming book, The Wellness

1:03:29

Trap, break free from diet culture,

1:03:31

disinformation, and dubious diagnoses,

1:03:33

and find your true well-being, which deals

1:03:36

with a lot of the themes we talked in this

1:03:38

episode and which is available for preorder

1:03:40

now. Just go to christy harrison

1:03:42

dot com slash the wellness trap to learn

1:03:44

more and preorder it for its April twenty

1:03:46

five release. That's christy harrison

1:03:49

dot com slash the wellness trap. If

1:03:51

you have any questions you'd like to ask me, you

1:03:53

can send them in at christy harrison dot

1:03:55

com slash questions. And if you're

1:03:57

looking for help healing your relationship with food,

1:04:00

you might wanna check out my free audio

1:04:02

guides, seven simple strategies for finding

1:04:04

peace and freedom with food. Which you can

1:04:06

get at christy harrison dot com slash

1:04:08

strategies. A big thanks

1:04:10

as always to our editor and sound engineer, Mike

1:04:12

Leland, community and content associate,

1:04:15

Vinci Chuay, an administrative assistant,

1:04:17

Julian Wojtaszek, for helping me out with

1:04:19

all the moving parts that go into producing this

1:04:21

show. Our album art was photographed

1:04:23

by Abby Moore Photography, and the logo

1:04:25

was designed by Melissa Alam. Her

1:04:27

theme song was written and performed by Carolyn Penny

1:04:29

Packer Rigs. And I'm your host and producer,

1:04:32

Christie Harrison. Thanks again for

1:04:34

listening and until next time, stay

1:04:36

site.