0:01

Welcome back to our resolution series. Every single week

0:04

we are covering one of the most commonly made

0:06

New Year's resolutions and what the science has to

0:08

say about it. Before we

0:10

get into this episode, I'm going to

0:12

plug that we are also doing daily

0:14

episodes over at our membership on

0:17

exercise and how to make it

0:19

a long-lasting habit. Every

0:21

day we're dropping a five-minute mini-episode tackling

0:23

all the most common things that may

0:25

be holding you back from reaching your

0:28

fitness goals for 2024. But

0:31

Yuna, for today, what are we going to talk about? So

0:33

today we are tackling something that we've gotten

0:35

so many questions on over the years and

0:37

is actually something that we have never addressed,

0:39

which is honestly really rare because this

0:42

is year five. I think this is year five

0:44

of the podcast. Like, that's insane. But

0:46

we've never ever talked about salt. Salt.

0:52

When I grew up, I heard that salt was

0:54

not good. If you had too much of it,

0:56

it was going to give you high blood pressure.

0:58

I didn't know what that was before I went

1:00

to medical school. And that, you know,

1:02

just cut back on the salt and, oh yeah,

1:05

your food's not going to taste so good. As

1:07

a person who loves to salt their food, like every time

1:09

I'm with my parents, my mom yells at me for

1:11

how much salt to put on my food. And

1:13

I'm always telling her, like, mom, it's okay because I don't have

1:15

high blood pressure. Like it's fine for me. We

1:18

are going to find out today. What is the

1:20

deal with salt? Is it actually something that we

1:22

should be worried about or is it something that

1:24

we don't have to be so strict about? And

1:26

is it a good New Year's resolution to make to cut back

1:28

on your salt? Or is it okay to

1:31

put a little salt on your vegetables because otherwise

1:33

they don't taste so good. Oh

1:35

my God. Salt makes everything taste better, guys. Not just

1:37

vegetables. Also, like, have you noticed every baking recipe? Like,

1:39

there's always a pinch of salt and all the sweet

1:41

things. Yeah. I think salt makes everything

1:43

taste better. So on today's episode, how

1:46

much salt do we need? Is

1:48

too much salt actually bad for you? What about

1:50

the different types of salt? And what if you're

1:52

a person that sweats a lot, guys? All your

1:54

saltiest questions will be answered today. the

4:00

sea or you can dig out the ground and it looks like

4:02

that sort of white crystals that you

4:04

get in the salt shaker. But we'll maybe come on

4:06

to this but there's a couple of ways that we

4:08

can get confused. So one is that

4:11

sodium can get into food in a

4:13

number of different forms. So it's often

4:15

salt, sodium chloride, but

4:17

sometimes it's sodium with something else. So

4:19

like monosodium glutamate would be an

4:22

example there. Most salt that we eat

4:24

is actually hidden within the foods. So

4:26

it's not the salt that we

4:28

add from the salt shaker that forms the

4:30

majority of the salt that we eat. So

4:33

we don't need to limit, like when we're

4:35

talking about sodium recommendations, we're not talking about

4:37

chloride recommendations, it's only the sodium part of

4:39

salt that we ever worry about. So

4:42

that's a good question and yes it's

4:44

largely the sodium that we worry about.

4:47

That in itself gets confusing

4:49

because there's no shortage of recommendations about

4:51

how much sodium we should eat and sometimes

4:54

those recommendations tell us how much salt, how much

4:56

sodium chloride we should eat and sometimes it's in

4:59

grams and sometimes it's in teaspoons and sometimes it's

5:01

in ounces and sometimes it's

5:04

sodium and the units are different. So it

5:06

can be very confusing to get the groups

5:08

to that. But you're right, it's mainly the

5:10

sodium. I think I've got

5:13

the numbers for the recommended dietary allowance.

5:15

In the US it's supposed to be 2300

5:18

milligrams but then we consume

5:20

closer to 3400 milligrams and that's kind

5:23

of just about a teaspoon I think is the

5:26

way that they've put it out. Is that about

5:28

right or is that what the UK... Exactly right

5:30

but what you're talking about there is... so what

5:32

did you say 2300? So that's sodium you're talking

5:34

about and not salt but what you've I guess

5:37

highlighted is that the amount of salt that we're

5:39

all told to take is much less than the

5:41

amount of salt that generally

5:43

people do eat in most

5:46

Western societies. Okay so

5:48

I find this very confusing because I don't

5:51

think I eat that much salt Rob, like truly,

5:53

but I'm starting to wonder do

5:55

things not necessarily taste salty even

5:57

if they have high sodium because

6:00

sometimes you turn a package around, like if you get

6:02

canned beans, it has all this sodium in

6:04

it, but you're like, this doesn't even taste salty, so it's very

6:06

deceptive. Absolutely, absolutely. And that is

6:08

exactly the issue. I

6:11

guess we're gonna come onto, we're mainly gonna talk about if it's

6:13

a problem, because that is a hotly

6:15

contested issue, but I think it probably is a problem.

6:17

And one of the problems is that salt is hidden,

6:20

and it's hidden in mainly processed foods, but

6:22

foods that you're absolutely right, you don't think

6:24

are salty. So bread, sandwiches,

6:27

they're a really common source

6:30

of dietary salt, but I don't think

6:32

that we feel that they're salty when

6:34

we're eating them. But about 75

6:36

to 80% of the salt that we take in is

6:39

hidden within processed foods. And only about 10%

6:42

of the salt that we take in comes from

6:45

salt that we've deliberately added from a salt

6:47

shaker. In other parts of the world, in

6:49

rural China, for example, most of the salt

6:51

that's consumed is actually added at the table.

6:53

I guess that's interesting that different cultures consume

6:55

salt in different ways, but that also has

6:57

implications when we think of if we want

6:59

to cut down on salt, if

7:01

the salt's under discretionary control, so if you know

7:03

what salt you're eating and you're adding it yourself

7:06

in a salt shaker, then the sorts of things

7:08

you could do to cut down on salt are

7:10

very different from if actually all

7:12

of the salt you're getting is hidden within processed foods,

7:14

and it could be very difficult to cut down on

7:16

salt if it's hidden. When

7:19

we talk about ultra-processed foods,

7:21

and we talk about them frequently, yeah, food, we need

7:24

to talk. We talk about foods

7:26

that have fat in them, that have sweet in

7:28

them, that have salt in them, and

7:30

that's not a combination you find in nature.

7:33

Is there something that draws us, or is

7:35

salt one of the things that would

7:38

be part of the addiction that people

7:40

have for ultra-processed foods? So

7:42

that's a great question, and I think the

7:44

answer is yes, but actually

7:46

understanding how we crave salt or

7:49

how we seek salt, again, gets

7:51

quite complicated, and I think there's probably

7:53

three elements to think about.

7:56

So one is how we perceive salt on

7:58

the tongue, so how it actually... tastes.

8:01

Let's not go down that rabbit hole right now

8:03

but we can really talk about that but actually

8:05

that can get quite complicated. And then

8:07

there's the issue of once you've tasted salt

8:09

and your tongue sends a message to your

8:11

brain, how does your brain then respond to

8:14

that? And people talk about two different

8:16

things there. They talk about salt

8:18

appetite and salt preference. And

8:21

they're subtly different but it's quite useful I

8:23

think to understand those two things to sort

8:25

of get a handle on your question and

8:27

then we'll try and answer that. So salt

8:30

appetite is a very ancient emotion that

8:32

lots of animals have and it's a

8:34

motivation to eat salt to correct a

8:36

salt deficiency. And salt is very important

8:38

so we're going to talk I guess

8:41

a lot about the horrible things that

8:43

salt, too much salt does to us

8:45

but of course salt like most things

8:47

is vital to life. We couldn't live

8:49

without salt. I guess then the question

8:52

is does that operate in humans and

8:54

actually probably in modern

8:56

humans that isn't really a powerful

8:59

driver right because we are exposed

9:01

to so much salt anyway. The main

9:03

determinant probably of whether we

9:05

seek out salt is this third piece

9:08

of the puzzle which is salt preference. So

9:11

not the taste on the tongue, not this

9:13

salt appetite but salt preference. And that's a

9:15

desire to eat salty food even

9:17

if you don't need it. Even if your body

9:20

isn't deficient in salt you just for some reason

9:22

seek it out and that does seem to be

9:24

quite well developed in humans and

9:26

we don't really know why that is. A lot

9:28

of studies to try and get to the bottom

9:30

of that have been done in experimental animals so

9:32

we know in mice

9:34

for example you can do

9:37

horrible things to mice to find out which bit of

9:39

the brain it is that is actually responding to the salt and

9:41

it looks like it's the same bit of the brain that

9:44

responds to reward so dopamine

9:47

pathways. So I think you're right salt is

9:49

addictive. even

10:00

though you can like barely taste the salt, it makes

10:02

like the sweetness and stuff taste way better, which

10:04

I think is really really interesting. And then the

10:06

other thing I was going to say is do

10:09

we know whether or not there is such a

10:11

thing as having too little sodium? So this is

10:13

actually a question that was turned in by one

10:15

of our foodie fam members, Amanda, and she

10:18

said that she tracks her sodium really carefully and

10:20

she doesn't eat much processed food. So sometimes she'll

10:22

go a day with eating like 500 milligrams of

10:24

sodium. And is that dangerous to be having something

10:26

that low or does it not matter? Like is

10:28

there no way to be eating too little

10:30

salt? Brilliant question and I would

10:32

say no because salt is just

10:34

so abundant that it's almost impossible

10:36

to eat not enough salt.

10:39

And I guess there's a few pieces of

10:41

evidence to back that up. So

10:44

one is there are people like, was it

10:46

Amanda did you say? So there

10:48

are whole you know groups of people that

10:50

still live in a world where they aren't

10:52

exposed to a lot of salt and salt

10:54

researchers have studied them because they're really interesting.

10:56

So for example, the Yanomami people in the

10:59

Amazon, they're a tribe that has yet

11:01

to be industrialized. So they still live

11:03

in a very remote

11:06

environment and there are other groups of

11:08

people around the world that still live

11:10

in a pre-industrial world basically. And

11:13

they have very, very little salt. So they

11:15

take about a gram of salt a day

11:17

or half a gram of sodium a day,

11:19

a quarter of a teaspoon less than that.

11:22

And it doesn't seem to do them any

11:24

harm. In fact, it's probably very helpful because

11:26

they have a nice healthy low blood pressure.

11:29

Got to be a bit careful, I suppose,

11:32

with that sort of study because their diet

11:34

and their lifestyle is different in so many

11:36

ways from the rest of us that it

11:38

can be foolish to just

11:41

concentrate on the salt intake. But certainly you can you

11:43

can eat not very much and it doesn't seem to

11:45

be very harm. And speaking to

11:47

you as a physician, my understanding

11:49

or my experience is that when

11:51

patients have salt on board, if

11:53

you measure someone's sodium in

11:56

their blood, that we defend that sodium very

11:58

well. Right. I mean, we're not. like

12:01

if the sodium level were

12:03

too low, it's almost always because you

12:05

have too much water on board. It's

12:07

not that you've actually lost too much

12:10

salt. Yeah, absolutely. And because

12:12

it's vital to life and we evolved

12:14

through periods where we had scarce access

12:16

to salt or were going through periods

12:19

of famine, we have evolved very, very

12:21

robust defense mechanisms. Absolutely. So if you're

12:23

short of salt, you will turn on

12:26

all the hormones that

12:28

hold on to salt. You will encourage your kidneys to

12:30

hold on to salt. So that's absolutely. There

12:33

are some people who will be

12:35

vulnerable to salt if those mechanisms

12:37

that hold on to salt are not

12:39

working properly. So if you

12:42

have certain kidney diseases, certain hormone diseases,

12:44

if you're, I guess, prone to low

12:46

blood pressure, you might be taking medicines.

12:48

So a lot of medicines actually are

12:50

deliberately designed to get rid of salt

12:52

from the body. So medicines for high

12:54

blood pressure. So if you're on those

12:56

medicines, then it's possible that you could

12:58

come to harm from too little salt.

13:00

But I think for the vast majority

13:02

of people, it isn't consideration. So Rob,

13:06

what do we know about the mechanism of how

13:08

salt actually affects our blood pressure and our kidneys?

13:10

I didn't even realize the kidneys were the gateway

13:12

between salt and our blood pressure. I had

13:15

no idea. So how does that all work? So

13:17

I would say they are, but I'm a kidney

13:19

doctor and I have a special interest in how

13:22

kidneys work on blood pressure. So salt has so

13:24

many effects on the body and it affects the

13:26

kidneys, it affects your hormones, it affects your blood

13:28

vessels, it affects your brain, it affects your immune

13:31

cells, it affects the bacteria that live in your

13:33

gut. And so it has a really complicated effect

13:35

on your body, but there's no doubt that kidneys

13:37

are really important. But it

13:39

might be helpful to know what your

13:41

kidneys are doing. It always amazes me

13:44

how little people know about what their

13:46

kidneys do. I literally have no idea. I

13:48

thought kidneys like, this is my understanding, so

13:50

maybe it will be a proxy for the

13:52

listener. All I understood

13:54

was like they somehow filter your

13:56

urine or something in your blood. I don't know, I

13:58

thought they were some sort of filtration system, I knew

14:00

it had something to do with urine and that's kind of

14:02

all I knew. That's exactly what

14:05

they do. So but they're filtering your blood all the

14:07

time and they're filtering it at an astonishing rate. So

14:10

your blood is always passing through your kidneys

14:12

and so over a 24-hour period, your kidneys

14:16

will filter about three pounds of salt. If

14:19

you were to lose all that salt, you

14:22

would very quickly die because you need the salt

14:24

inside your body. So the salt does lots

14:26

of things in the body but essentially it holds on to water.

14:28

So if you've got salt in your body, you've got water in

14:30

your body and then you've got a blood

14:32

to slosh around your circulation. So if

14:35

you imagine if you've only got about a half

14:37

a pound of salt in your body, so you're

14:40

filtering that six times that amount every

14:42

day, you're filtering that out of the

14:44

bloodstream. And so what your kidney does

14:46

is it reabsorbs about 99% of that. So

14:49

it's a really curious system. It feels

14:51

like it's wasting a lot of energy. There's

14:53

a good reason why the kidney works in

14:56

that way which you definitely don't want to ask me because

14:58

that will waste the next five minutes of the podcast. But

15:02

that's the way it works. But what that

15:04

means is that very, very small changes in how

15:06

the kidney handles salt can actually have really profound

15:08

effects on how much salt you've got in your

15:10

body. Because if you imagine,

15:12

even if you're reabsorbing 99% of the salt and letting

15:14

1% go out in the urine,

15:17

even if that changes just a tiny bit, because it's

15:19

such a massive amount of salt that the kidneys are

15:21

churning through every day, that can have

15:23

a really big effect on how much salt you've got in your

15:25

body. So I think that's why the kidneys are so key

15:28

in how we respond to salt. My understanding of

15:30

blood pressure as a person who doesn't say these things is it's

15:33

literally the pressure that

15:35

your blood is pushing on

15:37

your arteries or in your veins. Like how

15:39

much pressure is in your arteries.

15:42

How much pressure is in your arteries. So why

15:44

does that have to do with the kidneys filtering

15:46

salt? I think that's an

15:48

amazing question because it's

15:50

something I've thought about for years and I

15:52

don't really understand it either. The simple explanation

15:55

is that, so if you think of your

15:57

circulation as like a plumbing system in your

15:59

house. If you put more

16:01

fluid in, if you put more water into

16:03

your plumbing system or you put more blood

16:06

into your bloodstream, then the pressure will go up. That's

16:09

a simple explanation. So if your kidneys are

16:11

holding onto more salt and water, then you'll

16:13

have more volume in the system and the

16:15

blood pressure will go up. Got

16:18

it. Yeah, but don't

16:20

make that noise because it's

16:22

more complicated. So that I guess I don't

16:25

think information... No, I like that

16:27

answer. No. That's the answer

16:29

in the medical textbook and that's a

16:31

nice explanation, but there's some really weird

16:33

stuff that doesn't quite fit with

16:35

that. So if you look at people

16:38

who have high blood pressure and you measure

16:40

the amount of salt they have in the

16:42

body, it's not always higher than people who

16:44

have normal blood pressure. It's

16:47

definitely a bit more complicated, but that's the easiest

16:49

way to think about it, I think. You and

16:52

I just want to share with you that when

16:54

I was in training, we would go on the

16:56

teaching rounds in the hospital. So you'd

16:58

have the senior physician and then the fellows and

17:01

the residents and all the way down to the

17:03

medical students. They would

17:05

famously shoot questions at

17:07

the most junior people. And

17:09

sometimes you'd ask a question like you did

17:12

about what's the effect and

17:14

you'd get the young students to kind

17:16

of stammer and finally say like, sorry,

17:19

sir, I don't know. And

17:23

one firm but kindly professor

17:26

turned to the medical students who may or

17:28

may not have been me, who said, just

17:30

change that to we don't know and you'll

17:32

be fine. So

17:36

basically the gist is that like

17:38

we actually don't truly know the mechanism, but the

17:40

point is that salt does affect blood pressure.

17:43

But what's really on the minds of our listeners,

17:46

speaking from Marilyn, from our foodie fam,

17:49

are okay, enough about the salt, are the

17:51

different types important? Like you could, Rob, I

17:53

don't know about Edinburgh, but you can buy

17:55

sea salt here. You can buy pink salt.

17:57

You can buy kosher salt. Well, kosher salt.

18:00

salt's a whole different thing. You can buy salt

18:02

that has to be from the Himalayas. But people

18:04

think pink salt is way healthier for you,

18:06

for example. Are

18:09

these things healthier? I don't know. I have pink salt because

18:11

I like that it's pink. I'll just disclose.

18:14

I think that's the best reason to have

18:16

pink salt. I think that is the best

18:19

reason. Because, so first of all, I mentioned

18:21

that the whole issue of salt being unhealthy

18:23

was controversial for decades. And that's despite the

18:25

fact that there has been billions of pounds

18:28

spent on research into salt in literally millions

18:30

of human subjects and all

18:32

these animal experiments as well. And

18:34

we're finally reaching a consensus

18:36

on that. So the amount of

18:38

time and effort that's been spent investigating

18:41

the health properties of the other minority

18:43

salts or whatever we're going to call them, we

18:46

just don't know. But I think although

18:48

they differ slightly in air chemical composition,

18:50

most of these other salts like pink,

18:53

Himalayan rock salts, whatever, they

18:55

are largely sodium chloride. So I would

18:57

view them. To me,

18:59

it's very likely they're going to have exactly

19:02

the same health effects as cheap table salt.

19:05

But if you like pink, by all means, buy pink salt.

19:08

Well, I'll take it a step further. You

19:10

can go to Trader Joe's. It's a very

19:12

popular store here in the States.

19:14

And we don't just settle for pink salt

19:17

at our house. We bought the thing that

19:19

has seven different colors of salt and beautiful

19:21

like test long test tubes so

19:23

that I could read a recipe

19:25

which suggests like at this point you want

19:28

to sprinkle the bluish color salt on

19:30

top of the food for I guess the aesthetics

19:32

of it because from what you're saying, Rob, it's

19:35

not like it's any healthier or

19:37

less healthy. Well, I have a question

19:40

that is isn't it what gives it the other

19:42

colors like the other minerals in it like the

19:44

thing that makes pink salt pink I think is

19:46

other minerals I don't actually know. No,

19:48

I think that's correct. But I think they're there at such low low.

19:51

I think I think it's still

19:54

negligible. Yeah, I also don't I

19:56

don't know a lot about it. But my understanding of it is that

19:59

they're there at such a miserable concentration that

20:01

it's effectively salt. Got it. There is

20:03

one big exception to all of this,

20:05

which is salt that has been deliberately

20:07

substituted with potassium. So that's sometimes called

20:09

low salts. There's a brand of it

20:11

called low salt, but there are salts

20:13

that have been deliberately manufactured. Paradoxically,

20:15

I don't think they're sort of marketed necessarily as

20:17

being healthy and trendy in the same way that

20:20

pink salt is, but that is

20:22

very healthy. So potassium

20:24

chloride, or potassium, is very good

20:26

at lowering blood pressure. So

20:28

you can have salts where some

20:30

of the sodium chlorides, normally about a quarter

20:32

of it, has been swapped out for potassium

20:35

chloride, and that is good for you. And

20:37

actually, that type of salt has been studied

20:40

in very big medical trials, and

20:42

in some of those trials, if

20:44

you can increase consumption of that

20:46

type of salt, instead of sodium

20:48

chloride, you can reduce blood pressure,

20:50

you can reduce strokes,

20:53

and you can reduce death rate

20:55

even. We're

20:57

gonna be right back to continue our conversation

20:59

with Dr. Rob Hunter from the University of

21:02

Edinburgh. So

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deficiency and imbalances can cause headaches,

21:38

cramps, fatigue, brain fog, and weakness,

21:40

all things we don't want, guys.

21:43

But with Element, you get the

21:45

electrolytes and salts that you need to keep you

21:47

functioning at your best without any of the

21:49

junk that comes in all the other sports

21:52

drinks. So I have been

21:54

letting all my friends try this. They are all obsessed. I literally

21:56

have gotten texts from multiple of them being like, do you have

21:58

any more samples I can try? And I'm like, Guys, this

22:00

is mine. You can't have any more of

22:02

this. My favorite flavor is lemon habanero, but

22:04

my friends have loved the watermelon and the

22:06

mango. And Element is so

22:09

cool. They are the official hydration partner

22:11

for Team USA Weightlifting, a bunch of

22:13

other Olympic athletes, and a ton of

22:16

NFL, NHL, and even NBA athletes, and

22:18

special forces like the Navy SEALs, guys. Like, if

22:20

it's good enough for them, I think it's good enough

22:23

for me at the gym. They also have a

22:25

no questions asked refund policy, so if you get your

22:27

Element and you don't like it, you can give it

22:29

away to a salty friend and they will

22:31

give you your money back, no questions asked. Members

22:34

of the Food We

22:36

Talk community will receive

22:38

a free Element sample

22:40

pack with any order

22:42

when you purchase it

22:44

through the link drinkelement.com/food

22:46

talk. That's drinkelement.com/ food

22:49

talk. I really hope you guys check it out and let me know what

22:51

you think. And

22:55

we're back with Dr. Rob Hunter of

22:57

the University of Edinburgh, and we're talking

22:59

about salt. Two

23:01

more, just like, sorry for these curveball questions,

23:03

but these are also from our foodie fam

23:05

listeners. The importance of

23:08

iodized salt, like why was iodine

23:10

added to salt? I had no

23:12

idea. And then also MSG, somebody

23:14

asked about like, is MSG really

23:16

bad for you? Great questions. And now

23:18

I'm going to have to dredge. So iodized

23:20

salt, so I remember learning about this in

23:23

medical school a very long time ago. So

23:25

I'm going to say something that I hope

23:27

is correct. There are parts of the world

23:29

where iodine is deficient. So you tend to

23:32

find iodine in seawater near the coast. So

23:34

if you live near the coast, you'll find,

23:36

but if you live inland, there isn't much

23:38

iodine kicking around. And if you don't have

23:41

enough iodine, then your thyroid hormones aren't

23:43

made properly. So you end up with thyroid

23:45

problems. So I think adding iodine to

23:47

salt was a measure

23:50

to address that. And then MSG? So MSG

23:52

is monosodium glutamate. So there's a sodium

23:54

in there as well. The difference is that

23:56

instead of a chloride, as you get in

23:58

table salt... that's been swapped

24:00

for a glutamine or a glutamate. So

24:03

the sodium element is still there

24:05

and is still likely to be unhealthy

24:08

for all the same reasons. So, you know, it will

24:10

put your blood pressure up. There are

24:12

some intriguing differences actually between sodium chloride

24:14

and monosodium glutamate. Partly this comes back

24:16

to what we're talking about right at

24:19

the beginning and you know, what

24:21

effects does salt have on the brain and on the

24:23

tongue. There's some really intriguing

24:25

work that shows if you give the

24:27

same amount of sodium, it

24:30

tastes less salty if you give it

24:32

as monosodium glutamate than if you give

24:34

it as sodium chloride. Oh,

24:36

they're more likely to need more of it.

24:38

Well, it tastes less salty. So yes, I think,

24:40

so to get the same kind of salty hit, you

24:43

might need more of it. But on the other hand,

24:46

the glutamate iron I think is also tasted, isn't that

24:48

what gives you the umami? I'm sure you guys know

24:50

more about this than me. So I think you'll get

24:52

a kind of a double hit from

24:54

MSG because you get the

24:56

salts which you'll be programmed to like and you'll

24:58

get the glutamate hit as well. But

25:00

in terms of the saltiness, if you give it the

25:03

same amount of sodium, it tastes less salty as sodium

25:05

glutamate which is curious, isn't it? But it's

25:08

probably just to do with the fact that the glutamate iron

25:10

is much bigger than a chloride iron. So then it

25:12

just takes longer for the salt to actually sort of

25:14

get to the receptors on the tongue. Got

25:17

it. So okay, I

25:20

think the biggest question that I have

25:22

about this now is whether we need

25:24

to worry about salt if it's not

25:26

in the context of processed food. It

25:28

seems like the big way you can

25:30

get in trouble with salt is in processed food because

25:32

it's hidden a lot of things that aren't even salty

25:35

and then you don't realize how much salt you're having

25:37

and it affects your blood pressure. But if you don't

25:39

eat a lot of processed food and you're just thinking

25:41

about like your table salt, should you

25:43

be worried about like salting your food too much? Like my mom

25:46

always yells at me when she sees how much salt I put

25:48

on my salad. And I keep telling her

25:50

like, mom, like salt on my salad is not the salt

25:52

we need to be worried about, but she

25:54

doesn't believe me. So that's my question. Well,

25:58

you've probably right, but it depends. how much salt you're

26:00

putting on your salad, I guess. But it's like... I

26:03

don't think it's so salty, guys. I

26:06

swear. Anyway, sorry. No, I think you're right.

26:08

So I guess one of the problems with dietary research in

26:10

general, and again, I'm sure you know, and your listeners know

26:12

a lot more about this than I do, but it's

26:14

very hard to change one component of

26:16

your diet or to study one component

26:18

of your diet. Because if you change

26:20

one thing, you'll be changing a load

26:23

of other things. So if you're eating

26:25

a diet that is mainly processed, it'll

26:27

have lots of salt in it. But it will be horribly

26:29

unhealthy in all sorts of other ways, which

26:31

we've already talked about. If you're

26:34

eating a mainly unprocessed, lots of fresh

26:36

fruit and vegetables diet, then

26:38

it will be low in salt. But it will also

26:40

be high in potassium, for example, and high in lots

26:42

of other things that are generally healthy. I think

26:44

it's probably easiest to think of it in that

26:47

way, because that's the way that you can make

26:49

changes to your diet, right? You can make those

26:51

sorts of wholesale changes that will end up with

26:53

you taking less salt, but will also have all

26:56

sorts of other beneficial effects. What

26:58

about, at least in the States,

27:00

there is a somewhat

27:02

increasingly popular move towards

27:04

sports drinks and sort

27:07

of salty drinks, sports

27:10

supplements that are

27:12

actually salt to put into your

27:15

water while you're exercising? For

27:18

people who sweat a lot, this is actually from our

27:20

listener, Nicole. If you're sweating a lot or you're exercising

27:22

a lot, do you need more salt? Yeah,

27:25

so you do. And

27:27

actually, I guess that we talked a bit about,

27:30

is it ever dangerous to not have enough salt? And I guess

27:33

that would be another group of people in whom

27:35

you do need to keep up with your salt

27:37

intake. So excessive sweating, I guess there are medical

27:39

conditions aren't there, like cystic fibrosis, where you tend

27:41

to lose a lot of salt in your sweat.

27:44

But I guess if you're not sweating

27:46

heavily and you're taking in fancy salty

27:48

drinks, then that will end up

27:51

probably causing problems. I guess

27:53

it's a big debate, isn't there, about whether we need to worry

27:55

about it. So there's a school of thought that says, well, if

27:57

your blood pressure is not high, why are you worrying about it?

28:00

that's the main adverse effect of salt.

28:03

Yeah, should we be worrying about it? Well, I have

28:05

quite a lot of patients with high blood pressure because

28:07

most of the patients I see have kidney problems and

28:09

if you have kidney problems for the reasons we've alluded

28:11

to you end up with high blood pressure. And

28:14

one of the things that people always ask me is

28:16

what can I do myself for my

28:18

health? And one of the things if

28:20

you have high blood pressure that I think is

28:23

helpful is to cut out the amount of salt in your diet.

28:25

And I think if I had high blood pressure, I'd want to

28:27

do that. I think if you don't

28:29

have high blood pressure, it's harder to make the

28:31

case because what problem is the

28:34

salt causing? I guess what it's causing is

28:36

a predisposition to high blood pressure. But

28:38

if you're keeping an eye on your blood pressure, that might be okay.

28:41

And life without salt is pretty miserable.

28:43

So I, you know, I've

28:45

read a lot about salt. I've thought a lot about

28:47

salt. I'm well aware of the health problems it can

28:49

cause, but I love salt so I have it. Everything

28:54

in moderation. Well, it seems like if

28:56

you don't have high blood pressure from, or

28:59

sorry, if you don't have high blood pressure

29:01

period, then maybe just focusing on reducing ultra

29:03

processed foods in your diet will like not

29:05

only get rid of a bunch of salt,

29:07

but also have all these other health benefits

29:09

that we know come with reducing ultra processed

29:11

foods. Absolutely. So like that can

29:13

be a much bigger thing to focus

29:16

on than like the sodium in your

29:18

brownie. Maybe like how do I,

29:20

how can I stop having the brownie without feeling

29:22

miserable? Like, oh, maybe I like fruit,

29:24

this fruit better, whatever. That would be a much better kind

29:26

of health change. That's absolutely true.

29:28

One other thing that's really fascinating and maybe

29:30

worth knowing about is that you can, it

29:32

is miserable transitioning to a low salt diet.

29:34

I don't know if you've ever, if you've

29:36

ever tried to do that, but if you've

29:38

ever made a deliberate decision to cut the

29:41

amount of salt in your diet out, then

29:43

food tastes bland for a while. But

29:45

interestingly, if you keep going, and

29:48

this has been studied, if

29:50

you keep going for a few

29:52

months, your taste thresholds reset and

29:55

foods that was tasting bland will

29:57

start to taste nice again. And I don't

29:59

think we understood. that's been known since the

30:01

1980s and again I think that's one of those

30:03

sort of really interesting facts

30:05

but we don't really understand how that works but

30:07

something either your brain and your tongue will retrain.

30:10

So if you are thinking about cutting the

30:12

amount of salt in your diet and you're

30:15

two days in and feeling miserable carry on

30:17

because if you can get through a few

30:19

months then actually you'll find that food starts

30:21

tasting great again and then

30:23

when you go back to have the sorts

30:26

of salty levels that you were having before

30:28

it will taste disgusting because the salt

30:30

will then become sort of aversive

30:32

and unpalatable. There's

30:35

been proposals that American food

30:37

manufacturers should sort of collectively

30:39

start to slowly cut down

30:41

on the amount of salt put

30:43

into the foods with the idea that we could all

30:46

change our our predilection for the salt or the

30:48

taste. The problem is that everyone has to do

30:50

it. I was going to say they all have

30:52

to agree to it or some of them are going to taste

30:54

better than others. So

30:56

historically that is the only strategy that

30:58

has worked well for reducing salt intake.

31:00

So if you ask people to reduce

31:02

their salt intake they can't do it

31:04

and they can't do it because salt

31:06

is so addictive and it's a hard

31:08

thing to do it's a bit like

31:11

giving up smoking or any of the other things that are hard

31:13

to do and also because in

31:15

western societies we don't have discretionary control

31:18

over salt because it's hidden within processed

31:20

foods but Finland is a

31:22

great example so the Finns decided to do

31:24

this some years ago that as a nation

31:26

they were going to you

31:29

know take a really holistic

31:31

strategy involving industry involving the

31:34

government and legislation and they

31:36

cut their salt intake

31:38

very successfully. The UK have taken

31:40

a similar approach and have done

31:42

it successfully so that sort of

31:45

approach is the one that's most

31:47

likely to reap benefits. Finland is

31:49

always doing the coolest things guys I just have

31:51

to say every single time somebody tells me about

31:53

Finland they're doing the coolest things. The Finns are

31:55

cool. Rob I

31:57

have two final questions for you. First of all do you

31:59

hear make New Year's resolutions? Very important

32:02

question. I make

32:04

them. I don't

32:06

always keep them. The pause,

32:08

the pregnant pause. Go on,

32:10

stop right there. I make

32:12

them. Okay,

32:15

and my second question is should

32:17

people actually have reduced salt as a New Year's

32:19

resolution and if not what do you think is

32:21

a better one? I think there

32:23

are probably lots of better ones actually. It's so

32:25

depressing making the same resolution year after year because

32:27

then you just face the fact that you never

32:30

follow it through. So if you've run out of

32:32

resolutions and you want a new one, cutting out

32:34

salt isn't a bad one to have. I think

32:36

if you've got high blood pressure it's

32:39

a very good one to have. I think

32:41

probably as we've talked

32:43

about making more sort of wholesale

32:45

changes to your diet, like

32:48

eating more fresh fruit, vegetables would be

32:50

a better resolution. Probably

32:52

doing more exercise might

32:54

be a better resolution. If you smoke then

32:57

the best resolution you can try and make

32:59

is to stop smoking because that has a

33:01

bigger effect on your health than salt. So

33:03

I'd say it's not a bad one but

33:06

there might be a few other better ones as well. Perfect,

33:09

thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

33:14

Thank you so much to Dr Rob Hunter for

33:16

not getting salty with us when we were asking

33:18

him all our questions

33:20

about salt. We'll link to his

33:23

work on our website. If you

33:25

want to hang out with us

33:27

daily in January go to foodweneedtotalk.com

33:29

membership to help kickstart your exercise

33:31

habit for the year. You

33:34

can find us at foodweneedtotalk on Instagram.

33:36

You can find me at the official

33:38

Una on Instagram and Una Jada on

33:40

YouTube and TikTok. You can find Eddie.

33:42

Trying one of those salt substitutes just to

33:45

see what it's like. Oh,

33:47

what was it called? New salt. New salt?

33:49

Low salt? Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. There's a

33:51

few different ones. Food

33:53

We Need to Talk is a production of PRX.

33:55

Our senior producer is Morgan

33:58

Flannery and our producers... are

34:00

Megan Aftermat and Samantha Gatzik. Tommy

34:03

Bazarian is our mix engineer. Jocelyn

34:05

Gonzalez is executive producer

34:07

for PRX Productions. Food

34:10

We Need to Talk was co-created by

34:12

Kerry Goldberg, George Hicks, Eddie Phillips, and

34:14

me. For any personal

34:17

health questions, please consult your personal

34:19

health provider. To find

34:21

out more, go to foodweeneetotalk.com.

34:25

Thanks for listening. He almost

34:27

didn't come in on that one. No,

34:29

no, we're leaving it. We're

34:31

leaving it. You didn't care to thank him for

34:33

listening. Thanks for listening, guys. I don't know what

34:35

cares about you. From

34:40

PRX.