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sure you're listening to What's Occurring and good

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luck, G. Why

1:24

are we doing this? For the love of the game, mate. For

1:27

the love of rugby. The

1:29

Ultimate New Zealand vs England preview. A

1:32

massive interview with Sam Whitelock. What to

1:34

expect from the new coach Scott Robertson.

1:38

How England can beat the All Blacks and

1:40

a mouth-watering South Africa vs Ireland showdown. And

1:45

Watson is back with me. Tyne, how are you doing,

1:47

mate? You good? Preseason, we're back in

1:49

pre-season together, mate. How are you doing? How are

1:51

you finding it? I'm surviving, Lenny, and how it

1:53

is. It was good to be back

1:55

with the lads, but pre-season is always a dark, dark

1:57

place. You know what I love about you being at

1:59

Leicester? is of all my years of

2:01

also being an Esther. You're

2:03

the only man I've ever come across to

2:06

train with double diamonds in the years. I

2:08

just love it. I was literally, as I

2:10

ran out, I forgot they were in and

2:12

I was thinking if Cockers was still here,

2:15

mate, he would have absolutely dusted me for

2:17

that. Oh,

2:19

no, I love it. I reckon Chex all for it,

2:21

mate. I forget the impression Chex all for that. He

2:24

talked about rap music the other day, didn't he? So

2:26

I reckon Chex all for it. That was one way

2:28

to get the brothers on side, mate, mentioning Dr. Dre

2:30

first meeting all the boys, Elias. Come on, mate. Well,

2:32

if you turn up and bring it like you do,

2:34

mate, you can wear what you want, bud. Thanks, mate.

2:36

We appreciate that. So, Len, the All Blacks team has

2:38

been named. One stand-up thing I've

2:41

noticed is the Battle of the Tens. What

2:43

do you make of Mackenzie versus Smith? I'm

2:45

pretty excited by it. You know,

2:47

like Mackenzie's obviously, he sat behind my

2:49

one-year a little bit. He's played, he has played at fly-off, of

2:51

course. He's been on it. He's almost been used as well at

2:53

full back a lot of times. He's also been used as almost

2:55

like a bit of a super sub, hasn't he, because he can

2:57

cover a lot of positions. He's bold

3:00

how he plays. You know, he'll

3:02

be doing those little attacking kicks, as we've mentioned.

3:04

He'll be getting the ball out of that pod

3:06

of forwards and coming out of the back and

3:08

then trying to pick on guys. Like, he'll have

3:10

wingers inside, outside. He'll be taking on the line.

3:13

I like how he plays, mate. He's a genuine

3:15

running threat, and he's also very creative. I think

3:17

that's a hell of a battle, really, isn't it?

3:19

The one thing that I think plays in England's

3:21

favour is that the

3:23

defence is in super rugby. They're

3:26

not going to get the same line speed that they're going

3:28

to face on Saturday. I

3:31

think playing a 10 for the

3:33

Chiefs against the Auckland Blues, however

3:36

long it goes, three, four weeks ago,

3:38

is going to be very different to

3:40

playing 10 against England this

3:44

Saturday. And the line speed is the

3:46

main factor in that difference. So I think that that

3:49

might take him by surprise. And

3:52

it's harder for a 10 than anyone else in

3:54

the back line to adjust to that line

3:56

speed, because he's got to basically adjust

3:59

accordingly. everyone in the right position and he's

4:01

going to face the most heat. So I

4:04

think that that's one area that I think England

4:06

can really get after him. It doesn't strike me

4:09

as the type of bloke that gets flustered but

4:12

mate when you've got George Martin breathing down your

4:14

neck you do very well to not get flustered. That's

4:16

a really valid point man. The only thing is he's

4:18

just the type of player that even with that high

4:20

blitz defence and they force him back inside and I'm

4:23

sure England will be trying to force him back inside

4:25

is he's just one of those players just

4:27

has the footwork and the

4:29

ability to sort of break a tackle or the wingers pop up

4:31

in the inse... Do you know what I mean? It's almost like

4:34

and I feel with New Zealand like they're so

4:36

clever in terms of like Razor

4:39

would have watched them in terms of the coach and he'd have

4:41

seen all the bits and watched all

4:43

the England footage so he almost would have known

4:45

what's coming. He knows the blitz is coming and

4:47

he's just thinking oh I'm prepping off they

4:49

do this then look at this I need the wingers here I need

4:52

that's my only thing mate he's just the type of guy

4:54

that a cake and it force back inside and I totally

4:56

agree with you mate they're not used to that level of

4:59

blitz defence and England's blitz defence is

5:01

on another level that that I've

5:03

seen before right but

5:05

I just I'm just a bit like okay if

5:07

they force him back in I still he's still

5:09

just one of those players you're like oh shit

5:11

how does he get through there like how did

5:13

he make that happen do you know what I

5:15

mean? Yeah no completely. I think if England get

5:17

them in that vice you know that pressure game

5:19

and kind of squeeze them a little bit is

5:21

has Mackenzie got the temperament to maybe manage a

5:23

game when England get you in that type of

5:25

game which is a little bit where it needs

5:27

managing you know what I mean? When Mwanga had

5:29

all the the running attributes and everything like that

5:31

but everyone like don't lose focus of what a

5:33

wonderfully brilliant game management he had

5:36

in terms of his a relay a kick in

5:38

and getting them in the right field position little

5:40

attacking kicks yes he could distribute and run and

5:42

do everything right but he

5:44

also was very patient and was happy to kind of play

5:46

that game when it needed to. I

5:48

just wonder if Mackenzie potentially like

5:50

you say gets a little bit giddy

5:54

yeah if he does let's just make sure that George

5:56

cleans them up. Yeah I think another thing though to

5:58

be fair Len I was just just thinking about like

6:01

tactically, you know, I'm

6:03

not sure you could say he's a tactical genius

6:05

yet at fly off. No, I totally agree. Like

6:08

you could say about like 40 or Faz or

6:10

Polly or anyone like that. I think you've

6:12

got to have a decent amount of like

6:15

experience to fall back on to

6:18

bring into international and I'm not sure whether he

6:20

has that. But

6:23

he is a player that I rate and you know

6:25

like Brownie and a few of my other friends have

6:27

played with him at the bar bars and they say

6:29

that he's one of the most skillful players that

6:32

they've played with. So I think on the flip

6:34

side though, then we've obviously got Marcus, fly

6:37

off for England, who is unbelievable. I

6:40

fought against Japan and has been all

6:42

season for Quinn's. So

6:45

it's going to be interesting to see what type of game he

6:48

puts forward. What are you thinking there? So

6:50

I'm kind of expecting big things with Marcus,

6:52

like in a great way. Like you know

6:54

what I mean? I'm expecting big things from

6:56

him because I just think that so many

6:58

good things come off the back of what

7:00

he did against Japan. You know, just things

7:02

like you know, when England weren't going anywhere, he comes back against

7:05

the Ruck and obviously did that cross field kick. You

7:08

know, the way he took on the line, you know,

7:10

the great distribution pass from left to right. Just

7:12

I just thought, you know, he was obviously

7:14

key. So I'm kind of in a great

7:16

way, expecting another

7:19

sort of test performance.

7:21

Like because it's different, isn't it? You know, the rugby

7:24

to test match, like test performances are you've got to

7:26

be good at everything, right? You've got

7:28

to be able to take the opportunity when they come. You've

7:30

got to be able to manage the game when it needs

7:32

managing. You've got to make the right decisions in terms of

7:34

corner for line outs, the scrums, the plays. You've

7:37

got to deal with potential yellow cars and how you

7:39

do. You know, there's so many moving

7:41

parts and there's no bigger test than the New Zealand.

7:43

So yeah, it's going to be a hell of a

7:45

battle between those two tents, mate. The way they play,

7:47

the way they see the game. I

7:50

mean, that's that's worth tuning in alone, isn't

7:52

it? Mackenzie Smith. Let's have it.

8:00

downs between each like, like, do you

8:02

know what I mean? He just gets

8:04

the boys pumping and he's like, right,

8:06

first team announcement. He's like, right, spin

8:08

it. And they're just like, yo, razor

8:10

go. And he's just like, a number

8:12

one it is. And they're just like,

8:14

starts just spinning to mad twizzles and

8:16

stuff. Just in team announcements. Got a

8:18

bit of cycle where everyone's clapping. Yeah.

8:20

Just give it like, go razor. Go

8:23

razor. Wait,

8:25

hang on. Raising inside my name. What? I'm on

8:27

the 23. Fuck

8:30

razor. Just

8:34

like the, like the most mental team

8:36

announcement. It would be so good. I

8:39

wish I, I wish I could have like a fly on

8:41

the wall of New Zealand squad announcement and wonder if Raiser

8:43

just like spin on his head and doing all sorts of

8:46

matches and now it's the team. It's like, gives me my

8:48

great pleasure. And he's like, right boys, form the circle. Go

8:51

Raiser. He's just like, right, number one we've got

8:53

a number two. And he gets to like the

8:55

last and then he obviously gets to the, the

8:57

non travel, the traveling reserves. And that's not involved.

8:59

Hang on a minute. I think you said my

9:01

name. The

9:04

beats died off through heavily. The

9:06

clap, the chant, it's got to 23 and

9:09

the chant's really dropped off. I

9:13

wish that's how team announcement is, but I don't think

9:15

it will be anything like that. I think it's very,

9:17

yeah, done in a very

9:19

serious manner. But hey, we can only hope mate, maybe he's bringing

9:21

in new energy because he definitely is going to need you to

9:24

give it. If you look at it as a whole, right? And

9:26

you can only go off the basis of what Scott Robinson did

9:28

at the Crusaders and the system that

9:30

he played. So on the podcast, we've talked before

9:32

about the 1331 system. So

9:35

you have two edge back rowers on the edge,

9:37

almost from the 15 to the, to the touchline.

9:39

They're almost linking up with guys like you and

9:41

when linking up with the wingers, right? Then you

9:43

have three pods of forwards in the middle and

9:45

they're working, they're working off nine running the arrowhead

9:47

and they're working off 10. But actually

9:50

Scott Robinson at the Crusaders ran a ran a 242,

9:52

right? So he actually had two loose

9:55

forwards on the Y channel. He'd use his hooker on the

9:57

other Y channel, another Lucy, and then he'd

9:59

use a pod of four just in the middle, right? And

10:02

I'm really interested, and I should be able to pick

10:04

it up quite quickly, but I'm guessing he's gonna adapt

10:06

that same system and bring it to New

10:09

Zealand, right? Makes total sense, that's what he ran at

10:11

the Crusaders. On the back of running a two-four-two system,

10:13

what it does, it allows the backs

10:16

to roam way more, and you'll see

10:18

wingers popping up all the

10:20

time in and around off 10, off

10:22

that pod of four, in this arrowhead,

10:25

and then they'll pop up on the inside, the link

10:27

place centers get more involved. Yes, you got your wide

10:29

guys as well, but it's just like they

10:31

feel the field really well, and then they're able to go

10:33

to the space a lot easier, and quite

10:35

often a lot of teams adapt, well,

10:37

majority teams actually play the 1-3-3-1. And

10:41

with that, the middle of the field is almost condensed

10:43

with forwards, and actually his philosophy

10:45

looks like, actually, yeah, you've got forwards in there,

10:48

but it's actually condensed with backs, chasing off

10:50

loads, looking to get in behind the fenders, popping

10:52

up on the inside, popping the outside. So, man,

10:54

I think that's gonna be really interesting, and I

10:56

think that probably makes sense that he goes that,

10:59

because that's what he's always done. But

11:01

equally, with England's blitz defense, what

11:03

it does is it fills the field, and

11:06

it allows them to get the ball to the edge.

11:08

And what I mean by that is, yes, it's hard

11:10

to get around England defense, but New Zealand traditionally, and

11:12

you'll know this out now, is they're

11:14

not afraid to do these attacking kicks. So

11:16

they'll go to 10, and he'll do a

11:18

little attacking kick, and almost as that England

11:20

defense gets high and rushes high, it's almost

11:23

like these little low, almost like a little

11:25

chip in a golf, these

11:27

little chips, and it just invite the wingers into that

11:29

space to try and get around the blitz, because they

11:31

feel the field, I just

11:33

think there'll be a lot of that. I think there'll be these little attacking kicks.

11:36

I think they've got the guys in the wide channels, and

11:40

then it's difficult to defend because you always feel right,

11:42

because you're often that last defender, if

11:44

you're playing for England on the wing right now, but doing the

11:46

blitz defense right. And because they feel the

11:48

field so much, you definitely feel isolated, because you're suddenly like,

11:51

oh my God, there's a three-man overlap. But you know you

11:53

have to go and shut it down, right? And you have

11:55

to just kind of disregard those three men, because you think,

11:57

well, I'm gonna go so high. and I'm going to spot

11:59

it, that they're never going to get the ball there. The

12:02

difference with New Zealand is because they have the backs roaming around

12:04

in the middle, they've got the distribution to actually get it there

12:06

and they've got the kicking game. So I'm

12:08

pretty interested there, mate, like, and how

12:10

England obviously maybe expect that or how

12:12

they deal with that. It's quite that's

12:14

that's my view of where I think

12:16

New Zealand might go after in the

12:19

Scott Robinson philosophy from Crusaders, which I

12:21

assume, I can only assume that that's

12:23

what he'll bring to New Zealand. What you said

12:25

about that system and backs popping up all over

12:27

the park, I think it makes sense with the

12:29

players that they've got, you

12:31

know, like, when I was thinking

12:34

about who's going to pop up in those positions,

12:36

you've got like Talea who will be everywhere. Then

12:39

you've got guys like, you know, Jordy

12:41

Barrett, who can distribute but also can

12:43

truck it up. So he'll

12:45

be popping up, say, or use something similar with

12:48

Manu popping up outside a pod of forwards. And

12:50

I'd imagine, you know, that's a similar type of

12:53

thing that the New Zealand will have to run

12:55

with like Rico, Ioannoni or Talea. And

12:57

in a blitz defence, it's hard to account for

12:59

someone who just appears so late. So yeah,

13:03

it makes complete sense. And I thought

13:05

about it like that. That's your experience

13:07

and wisdom really shining through there.

13:09

You see that's that's why he's England's most

13:11

cat player. You see right there, the

13:14

analysis is just second to none. Thanks, man.

13:17

I appreciate that. The other thing that he's

13:19

in as well is tonus is not only like, you know,

13:21

you have players that can distribute right. And

13:23

maybe that's their main X factor is they distribute

13:25

right. And then you have other players that are

13:27

just runners, maybe, you know, really good in space.

13:30

But what New Zealand have is they have distributors

13:32

that can also run and runners

13:35

that can also distribute like it's so the threat

13:37

is is so key. Like you say, mate, with

13:39

these guys popping up and against blitz defence as

13:41

well, you don't want to play particularly long ball

13:43

in air. So what I mean by that for

13:45

listeners is when you when you

13:47

do pass a ball, it needs to be sort of

13:49

the ball in air needs to be at a minimum

13:51

because the longer the ball in there, the more the defence

13:53

one gets higher because it's more time in the air to

13:55

go and spot it. But also, it's

13:59

easier than to read it. it as well because there's

14:01

nothing, it's obvious who's getting the

14:03

ball, but with these guys popping up on that, as

14:05

you say, Tone, I think that's the biggest, that's the

14:07

threat I see for England. It's like, I'm really excited

14:09

by it. I'm really encouraged and I really think England,

14:12

you know, they've won 10 of the

14:15

last 13 games. They put Japan away

14:17

pretty comfortably. We're impressive. They got cohesion

14:19

in that game, some synergy going. So

14:21

I just think New Zealand,

14:24

although some of them will know Scott Robinson's philosophy having

14:26

been at the crusade, it's not everyone will. And it

14:28

takes a bit of time. I really

14:30

think if England get it right and they can deal

14:32

with that sort of two, four, two system and those

14:34

little wingers popping up and those short little passes, I

14:36

think women with a great shout mate, I really do.

14:38

It's definitely going to be a good game. Yeah, it

14:40

is. It's going to be, and you know what, I

14:42

just get to watch it on the sofa, how good,

14:44

have a coffee, just enjoy it. Oh,

14:47

good. So good. So

14:49

good. Are you sure, Len? Is it just a

14:52

coffee you'll be having? Yeah. And a bacon roll.

14:54

It's, um, there we go.

14:57

I'm in pre-season. Of course not, mate. I'll be having like

14:59

peeled watermelon and scrambled

15:02

eggs. As opposed to unpeeled watermelon.

15:08

I couldn't think. I couldn't think. You put me under

15:10

the pump, mate. You put me under pressure. Sorry,

15:13

bro. As much as

15:15

we think we know lots about the all

15:17

blacks, um, I caught up with Sam Whitelock

15:19

the other week. So who better to give

15:21

us an inside in New Zealand than the

15:24

most capital black of all time. Please

15:26

enjoy listening to Sam Whitelock and then me

15:28

and Anne will be back shortly. Because

15:32

rugby is the number one sport in New

15:34

Zealand, everyone just cares so deeply about it.

15:36

And your parents watch the game, your brothers

15:39

and sisters watch the game, your kids, but

15:41

also your friends and family, your community, and

15:43

everyone takes so much pride in how they've

15:45

helped you or that player along the way.

15:48

And it's very, very humbling. And it's not

15:50

different to any team you make when you

15:52

are lucky enough to be selected or you

15:54

play your first one. The messages, whether it's,

15:57

you know, a phone call, text messages. social

16:00

media. So many people that you've probably forgotten about

16:02

the influence they had, they are so proud of

16:04

that small part that's got you there. So that's

16:06

kind of why I think you know that it's

16:08

just so much more than a game. What will

16:11

he bring different maybe that was before or just

16:13

a bit of an insight into him? Yeah, no

16:15

razor really well. I've had him for a number

16:17

of years through the Crusaders

16:19

and my brothers had him for a

16:21

few years with Canterbury beforehand too. So going

16:24

to be completely different and I think that's a good thing

16:26

every time. There's been a bit of a

16:28

shake up every time I've had a new

16:30

head coach and whatever team sometimes change is a

16:32

really good thing. But the same thing you want

16:35

to always protect what is special and what works

16:37

well and then obviously evolve what needs to be

16:39

evolved. So I'm sure that he's spent a lot

16:41

of time and I know he has around what

16:44

he wants to protect but then what he wants

16:46

to grow and evolve. I'm sure it'll be an

16:49

exciting environment to be in because

16:51

he does think differently. He does look at things in

16:53

a different way. He looks at it as an opportunity

16:56

to be better and I'm sure there'll be some things

16:58

that will be a bit left field but he'll just

17:00

come out and get on with it. If it works

17:02

great, if it doesn't, we'll look at it again and

17:04

change it. I'm guessing it obviously helps with a lot

17:06

of players that potentially played under him at the Crusaders

17:08

would sort of know him but you've still got to

17:11

bring that team together. That's the job of the head

17:13

coach is to grab the team and say this is

17:15

our true north or this is the way we're going

17:17

and let's go and get on with

17:19

it and I'm sure he'll do that really

17:21

well. He's got a good team around him

17:23

and then obviously a nice little group of

17:25

guys that are coming through. There's some guys

17:27

I think he had with under 20s when

17:29

he's involved there so he'll have a lot

17:31

of relationships. Do you have a particular coach

17:33

or maybe a particular player that you felt

17:36

got the best out of you? Yeah, I

17:38

look at my coaches and I'm in a

17:40

very very privileged situation to go

17:42

through and name some head coaches that I've had

17:44

and they've all helped me in different ways whether

17:46

it's the start of my career

17:48

or the end of my career. Sometimes it's

17:50

not actually the big thing it's just that

17:52

little little detail at the

17:54

time that could be the difference and one

17:56

example is I'll talk about Fozzie

17:59

he said some me the best thing you can do

18:01

before you get home is make sure you finish a

18:03

phone call. I was like, what do you mean?

18:05

He goes, well, when you're home, be present at home. And

18:08

I was like, I didn't really know what he was talking about. So

18:10

I got him to explain a bit more and he was saying, there's

18:13

nothing worse than taking rugby home because when you

18:15

walk in the door with your wife and your

18:17

kids and anyone that's got kids knows that first

18:19

20 second reaction from the kids when you've walked

18:22

in after a big day, that is sometimes the

18:24

most special part because they're excited, they're jumping up

18:26

and down. There's nothing worse than walking

18:28

in, you're talking to a coach about whatever. For

18:31

me, that little bit of information I got

18:33

later in my career was just as important

18:35

as the information I got from Todd Blackhead,

18:37

Steve Hanson, Razor, all these other guys at

18:40

the start of my career. So it's amazing

18:42

what you pick up and when you pick

18:44

it up. It's the timing and that's

18:46

where great coaches, they know when to give that message.

18:48

They know when to not say it. Or they know,

18:50

okay, I'll loop back around and I'll have a yarn

18:52

where you're not in front of the team. And

18:55

I need a headspace to actually listen and take

18:57

that information on. I still feel like I've got

18:59

a great relationship with everyone that I've been coached

19:01

by and hopefully I've helped them

19:03

excel in wherever they are now too. You

19:05

have attempted to coach given all your experiences

19:08

given, I mean the list

19:10

of coaches you just mentioned there, you think

19:12

of all the knowledge that you've absorbed and

19:14

your own personal knowledge and experiences. Have you

19:17

ever been tempted? Yeah, it's kind

19:19

of working through all that process at the moment and

19:21

I'd be really upset with myself like, so

19:24

I've just named some head coaches there but then

19:26

you go through and name some of the assistant

19:29

coaches I've had like Wayne Smith, Mike Cron, Jayce

19:31

Ryan, who's obviously coming through Scotty Henson. So all

19:33

these guys that some of them have been at

19:35

a really high level for a long time and

19:38

some guys are just starting to potentially

19:40

get there. I'd be really upset with myself

19:42

if I didn't pass that knowledge on. From

19:44

the outside and obviously playing against

19:46

New Zealand a number of times but the

19:49

sort of 2015 that group that went and won a

19:51

World Cup and obviously won it in 2011 of course,

19:54

but then 2015 that sort of, my

19:56

gosh, what a side. Is

19:58

that the greatest side?