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1:55

Hi, everyone. My

2:00

engine hat maker here, host of

2:02

the For the Love podcast. Welcome

2:04

to the show. What a

2:06

banger we have today. Let me

2:08

look at the clock. Yep, we went 15 minutes

2:12

over our slide in time, which I

2:14

knew from the jump we were going to

2:16

do. All right, I'm getting ahead of myself. I

2:20

love, love kicking off a

2:22

new series. Every time I feel excited about

2:24

it. Today is the very

2:27

first episode in a new series

2:29

that we are calling For the

2:31

Love of Wonderful You. This

2:35

is something I brought to my team a few months ago

2:37

that I really wanted to do on the show. Something

2:40

about this time of year is

2:42

when the wheels

2:44

start rocking. Like it's

2:47

March. A

2:50

lot of things are kind of in

2:52

motion for a huge chunk of our

2:54

community. April and May are

2:57

absolutely kind of gauntlet

2:59

months as moms and

3:03

this is when we start going, oh, we're

3:05

emerging from the sleepy slumber of

3:07

the winter and feeling it. And so

3:09

I didn't

3:11

want that pace to pick up,

3:14

that hectic thing that we do

3:18

without something

3:20

from our little corner of the world. And

3:23

so I was like,

3:25

what can we do in the month of March to

3:27

pause and

3:29

to start asking questions about

3:33

how deeply loved are we?

3:35

How worthy are we as we

3:37

are? I love these questions and

3:39

I love them right now. I'm

3:41

bearing a lead right here and you're gonna see why

3:43

by the end of the episode. But we

3:46

are worthy of a beautiful life where

3:48

no one is keeping score. And the

3:50

thing is no one is keeping

3:52

score. That's a huge profound

3:55

part of our conversation today that I

3:57

literally wrote down on a note card.

4:00

in real time, I cannot possibly have

4:02

a better conversation partner around this

4:05

conversation because we

4:09

have somebody so very smart,

4:12

so compassionate, so

4:14

honest and truthful that

4:18

I sometimes just listen to her talk and

4:20

go, wow, you are just such a person

4:22

of profound depth. And I'm

4:26

so drawn to her, we

4:28

have the incomparable Amanda

4:31

Doyle today, you guys, almost

4:34

all of my community knows that this is, in

4:36

case you don't. Amanda

4:38

Doyle is Vice President, General

4:41

Counsel and member of the Together

4:43

Rising Board of Directors. Together

4:45

Rising is a

4:48

501c3 nonprofit and it

4:50

is just a force

4:53

in this world, just a

4:55

force. Together Rising

4:57

has raised over 50

4:59

million dollars and

5:02

given it away to people all over the

5:04

world who need it the

5:06

most. I have been a part

5:08

of several of their campaigns and

5:12

the work of Together Rising is

5:14

what literally is good in the world still. Amanda

5:17

used to be an attorney, she

5:20

was a legal fellow

5:22

with IJM, International Justice

5:24

Mission, who I've also had a

5:26

long time relationship with. Specifically

5:29

when she was at IJM, worked

5:32

on legal justice for sexual

5:34

abuse victims in Rwanda. So

5:37

that's given you a little taste of

5:39

her heartbeat. So Amanda is

5:41

many, many things, but you may know her

5:43

most from being co-host of

5:45

the We Can Do Hard Things podcast. She

5:48

happens to be the sister of Glennon Doyle

5:50

and sister and daughter Abby Wambach, both who

5:52

I've been friends with for Glennon a

5:54

really long time and Abby as soon as

5:56

she hit the scene and I just love them both so dearly. I've

5:58

had them both on this show. show too. And I've

6:01

been on theirs. And Tyler and

6:03

I've been on theirs. Listen, we just cross-pollinate

6:05

guys. It's because we believe in each other so much.

6:08

And so full circle,

6:10

finally, Amanda on the show,

6:12

she is uniquely adept at

6:15

breaking down negative messaging

6:17

and accessing like inner

6:19

words and inner truth. Really

6:22

and truly, I just finished our recording.

6:25

And I am walking away with one

6:27

particular nugget that literally

6:29

just shone a light on something

6:31

in my own creative work. I

6:34

honestly can't believe I hadn't occurred to me. But this

6:37

is a great conversation. By the way, if you

6:39

ever want to watch any

6:41

of these conversations, besides just listen to

6:43

them, we video record all

6:45

of them. They're over on my YouTube channel. So

6:47

if you ever want to see Amanda, because even

6:50

just watching her talk is so highly engaging,

6:52

and I can never tear my eyes off

6:54

of her, I want to listen

6:56

to every word she says, it's no wonder I made

6:59

this go late, because I did not even want to

7:01

stop this conversation. I had a million other things to

7:03

talk about. But whatever we

7:06

fit it in, as much as we could fit in

7:08

for you, and you are going to love it. I

7:10

think you're going to hear some pretty profound thoughts today.

7:13

And I could

7:15

not be more delighted to

7:17

share my conversation with the

7:19

stunning and wonderful Amanda Doyle.

7:28

Hi, hello, Jen Hatmaker. I love you

7:30

for the love. I love your community.

7:32

I'm so honored to be here. Thank

7:34

you. Thank you. Thank you. We

7:36

love you too. Our communities are

7:38

similar, tons of crossover. We share

7:40

a lot of folks, a

7:43

lot of women. And so I love

7:45

that because we understand them. But also

7:48

we understand each other. I swear to

7:50

God, Amanda, like, when I listen to

7:52

you say whatever, just pick a thing,

7:54

whatever you're talking about, whatever conversations, I

7:57

am like, that

7:59

person. is wired almost

8:02

exactly like me. It's

8:04

weird. My condolences, Jen Hatmaker.

8:07

And I feel the same way. When you were on

8:09

and I was like, well, you can sit this one

8:11

out because Jen is saying all the

8:13

things that I would be adding to

8:15

the conversation. So God bless us.

8:18

Yeah, I know. And everyone who works with

8:21

us. But there

8:23

is beauty there too. Cause I can see it in you. So

8:26

I know it's also in me. So that's the beauty also

8:28

of having people who think like

8:30

us. Cause we're like, oh, I'm looking

8:32

from the outside and that's good

8:34

stuff. It just feels differently from the inside.

8:36

For us. Exactly. Well, we

8:38

know our own demons. Like we know

8:41

what we're battling internally. That is outside

8:43

of everybody else's purview. And

8:45

kind of where some

8:48

of the deficiencies, like I am, I'm

8:50

brain first. I'm an internal process. I'm

8:52

a thinker. I deeply

8:54

think things through logically. And

8:56

I was in meetings, I

8:58

swear, on Monday

9:01

and Tuesday with these

9:03

fascinating, creative people who

9:05

bring books to life in the world, like

9:07

the best books in the world. And I'm

9:09

sitting there talking to them about, and I

9:12

am asking them all these analytical questions. And

9:14

I am literally like, oh my God, wizard,

9:16

give me a heart. What

9:18

am I an analyst? Like am

9:21

I an accountant? Help me, help me

9:23

be in my body a little. Well, help

9:25

me be in my body is a life

9:29

question that is

9:31

a good one to ask. I've been wondering

9:33

about that myself. I'm learning.

9:35

That's new for me. I mean, I didn't grow up with

9:39

one word of

9:41

embodiment instruction into my ear. I didn't even

9:43

know what that was. That wasn't a conversation

9:45

anybody in my ecosystem was having. And

9:49

it's not my natural bent either. My

9:52

preference is just simply disassociate

9:54

from my body. This is simply a carrier

9:56

carrying around my brain. It is an

9:58

inconvenient day. Wait. attached to

10:01

my brain. Just sit astride. I

10:03

mean that the level of deprogramming

10:05

it has. Required of me

10:07

to get in my like bones and

10:09

my body and and my heart is

10:11

good work but hard work for sir

10:13

I'm something ahead I'm jumping so got

10:16

okay and with you wherever you though.

10:19

I'm laughing so hard because somebody

10:21

is listening. There's price five to.

10:23

Eight people and would levy all little

10:25

i like. Those. Five to

10:27

a people are sustained which will introduce a suicide

10:29

jed what are you guys. Do the talking

10:31

about for the five to eight. Who

10:34

just got the internet last week? And

10:37

their new here. Kids, you just

10:40

kind of do the thirty thousand thirty four.

10:42

It's like this is my deal. This is

10:44

where I'm at. These are my people. This

10:46

is my saying. Yes, I will do all

10:48

of that. So I guess still like. Class

10:51

and of way that you'd write

10:53

on a piece of paper is

10:55

that I have worked with and

10:58

for my sister Glennon Doyle for

11:00

the past dozen years. Before that

11:02

I was a practicing attorney and

11:04

now I have the delight of

11:06

also working with Abby Wambach to

11:08

whom she is married and we

11:10

have a podcast called we Can

11:12

Do Hard Things and a non

11:15

profit called To Rising and. As.

11:17

That's a Community has raised

11:20

over fifty million dollars for

11:22

folks who need it. and

11:24

it's so ridiculously. Beautiful.

11:27

In the world. And so that's the one

11:29

eyed right? And the paper bets a your

11:31

producers and me that seem of this. Series.

11:34

And I was like oh.

11:37

This is really something. Because.

11:41

This. Is my. Struggle.

11:44

Of my life and I

11:46

think that's. If.

11:48

I had to introduce myself in a

11:50

more truthful way it would be. That.

11:56

I may person who has

11:58

a very. The way for

12:00

it and sometimes outlay for comes out

12:03

at like a beautiful five late and

12:05

sometimes it's like. A. Lie this Me

12:07

and I need Sandra The. Covers for. Way.

12:10

Longer than is appropriate. I

12:13

am four years sober from

12:15

alcohol. I am. Always

12:18

and forever going to be. He is.

12:21

Recovering. From a lifetime of

12:23

eating disorders. I.

12:26

Have gone to Bridge

12:28

Mack divorced and remarried and

12:30

Ice Islands. Loves partnerships

12:33

to be. The most confounding.

12:35

Part. Of Life. I.

12:39

Struggled things Id and.

12:42

I also.

12:45

Do not struggle with his

12:47

strength and. Pushing.

12:50

Through but I do struggle with. Softness

12:52

and I not good at it to myself

12:54

and I'm not good at it. Even it

12:56

in other people that I love and that

12:58

has challenged my relationships. And

13:01

the I just really wanna be.

13:04

Paid. Is really want to be okay and

13:06

satisfied with my life and that. Is.

13:08

My. Age. And.

13:11

Life so those are just another that's

13:14

my like off and like that that

13:16

the officer one not South Ossetia but

13:18

that's that's who I am and I'm

13:20

delighted to be with your crew. I.

13:23

Think I've been. Diagrams do overlap so.

13:25

I'm so happy to be! If you. So

13:28

much I'm just wasn't He took it off and

13:30

I'm like. These are

13:32

big big pillars of the work

13:34

of my adult life. Also, We

13:37

were talking before recording, but there's.

13:40

A place for us in the

13:42

world, the way that we were

13:44

farms and how we function in

13:46

what. We are capable of

13:48

for sure. And there's also a

13:51

downside to that. I'm

13:53

laughing as you are saying Well firstly

13:55

everywhere the eat a said speak has.

13:58

I was recently talking to agree the

14:00

friends I mean friends friends are and

14:02

that's either like ancillary friends or I

14:04

mean we've done nothing like we are

14:06

deep in a bag. And

14:08

I just casually mentioned to them that

14:10

I'm dating. I am not remarried but

14:12

I am definitely like a new relationship.

14:15

And by guy you're talking to me

14:17

like i don't follow your every move

14:19

with Tyler like oh you're dating someone

14:21

Jan like I drive know it was

14:23

really what was in a deeply styler

14:25

Med Sci is beautiful beautiful man. What?

14:27

unless you tell me otherwise that he

14:29

said to me. Know. He

14:31

has his it's okay of the

14:33

best. Know he's fearful and but

14:35

it's so interesting because you know wherever you

14:37

go there you are and so sometimes a

14:39

new relationship doesn't just mean. You are also

14:42

a new person inside of it. You

14:44

just have. The same

14:46

little things and so I was

14:48

telling my group of friends and

14:50

my killer is silly me that

14:53

I. Can. Get hyper focused on

14:55

like and then what happened near they and than

14:57

what did he say and and what were you

14:59

thinking what redoing I will talk about it I'm

15:01

gonna say for. Sixty Sixty. Sixty

15:05

seconds and usually write about the sixty second

15:07

mark at is what I'm saying Friends: he

15:09

signed me that and I'll say something like.

15:12

I'm talking to on what am I

15:14

blathering about like I am in the

15:16

weeds. Anyway, it was fine and they

15:18

were all silent and they were like.

15:21

You do that to us literally

15:23

every time you ever tell us

15:25

anything which we have to drag

15:27

out of you. And I'm like. I

15:32

do. I'm. Just it's

15:35

easier to be focus on other

15:37

people. I immediately feel like I'm

15:39

taking up too much oxygen and

15:41

I'm like to. This is too

15:43

much sharing. I have wondered about

15:45

that changed so much because I'm

15:47

the same way only in my

15:49

adults. Friendship has

15:51

I access. At

15:53

peace where I'm like, Oh. Wait,

15:56

i am supposed to

15:58

disclose and share because

16:02

then they can

16:04

reflect back to me. I never

16:06

did that prior. And I'm wondering if

16:08

it's like a deeper, because

16:11

now I see it playing out my relationship.

16:13

And I think that I always thought that

16:16

my job was to manage

16:18

myself internally,

16:20

that it's almost like weird

16:24

and irresponsible and

16:26

weak to have to like

16:28

bring it out of yourself and say,

16:30

I need help

16:32

or feedback or whatever, that my

16:35

job was just internally like, put

16:37

it in the input, out

16:39

comes the final conclusion. And that's what

16:41

I present to you. And

16:44

that seems like it's

16:46

strong. But actually, recently, I've been

16:48

like, Oh, man,

16:50

like I was in couples therapy. And my

16:52

therapist was very, very

16:54

good at analyzing what is wrong. I'm

16:57

like, not that, not that, not that. Nope,

16:59

nope, nope, nope. And she was

17:02

like, great.

17:04

What do you want? Well,

17:08

that's a very aggressive

17:10

question. Sure, it's rude. But

17:13

it's why you pay her. Oh, exactly.

17:15

It's so vulnerable, because

17:17

it's invulnerable to say,

17:20

that is not acceptable to me. It is

17:23

very vulnerable to say, like, I

17:25

have looked and this is what I want, or

17:27

this is what I'm struggling with. And like, I

17:29

don't know if it's reasonable. And I

17:31

don't know if you're going to be able to give it.

17:33

And I don't know if I sound crazy. I wonder

17:36

if that's all connected, the like little

17:38

bitty disclosures and the big disclosures about

17:40

like, that is a level of vulnerability,

17:43

and suggest a reciprocity with the people

17:45

in our lives. That is

17:47

deeply uncomfortable. It

17:50

is. And I tell you what makes it even

17:52

harder is that, like, I can

17:54

hear this, I hear you saying it, I would

17:56

say the exact same thing. That is, that is

17:58

not the way to live. That is a

18:00

lonely way to live, that is a disconnected

18:02

way to live that makes people feel alienated

18:04

from you. I kind of like know it.

18:07

I know it. The problem is, we

18:10

actually have the capacity

18:14

to internally sort the thing out,

18:16

draw conclusions, power through, soldier

18:19

it alone. I have operated in

18:22

my life how I think that you have

18:24

in a lot of ways and a lot

18:26

of functions and roles, which is the steady

18:28

Eddie. Like I'll get us through guys, everybody

18:31

get in the boat. I'll row

18:33

us to shore. I'll figure

18:35

it out because we do and

18:37

we can. Excellent figure outters. Yes.

18:40

That makes it hard. It does. Like it

18:42

makes it hard that we actually can function

18:45

in that isolated way and then wonder

18:47

why at the end of the day

18:49

it feels lonely in

18:52

life. Probably 50 this

18:54

year. I'm still working this out.

18:57

I'm still working this out. That vulnerability

18:59

piece to me is my

19:02

hurdle. What is yours? I

19:04

think, God, well, we only

19:06

get one. Fair.

19:08

Pick one. Pick

19:10

one. I have so many. Maybe

19:12

they do all coalesce around

19:14

the vulnerability piece of it because

19:17

they all kind of intersect at the heart of

19:19

that. I think

19:22

the catch 22 of the self-efficacy

19:25

that we have, which is like anything

19:28

that happens, I can handle it. I

19:31

will tackle this. You get behind me. I

19:34

will protect you from it. That is

19:36

a beautiful thing. I sometimes wonder if

19:38

it really is inside of us or

19:40

if it is a capacity that

19:43

is so praised by the world that

19:45

that muscle would just got bigger and bigger

19:47

and bigger. It is

19:49

rewarded. It's so rewarded. It's

19:51

so rewarded. I think

19:53

the reliance on that

19:56

becomes this very broad stroke, which

19:59

is like. I know

20:01

what's happening here. And

20:03

I think just recently,

20:07

I have become aware

20:09

that I don't actually

20:13

always know what's happening. That I

20:15

draw conclusions and

20:17

that sometimes those conclusions went

20:21

untested and they're very often untested. It's that

20:24

same thing of like, oh,

20:26

let's stop talking about this. Or I already know

20:28

what this is. I'm operating based on what I

20:30

know as if it were truth.

20:33

And what I know is often not

20:36

true in my most intimate relationships. And

20:39

that I miss by not sharing, by

20:41

not saying, even

20:44

though it feels very annoying to

20:46

have to be almost patronizing and

20:49

obnoxious, to have to be like, when

20:52

you do this, I feel this.

20:54

Like I'm allergic

20:56

to all of that, but you

20:58

get information. Because

21:01

sometimes it's like, that's not at all what's

21:03

happening. And if you are driving your little

21:05

rowboat based on the information you have in

21:07

your head, then you might

21:09

be going in the wrong place. You're gonna get there

21:11

because you're gen hat maker and in Enneagram 3, you notice

21:14

how to get there. But like, are

21:16

you gonna arrive at the right place? Sometimes

21:18

not. It's so

21:20

true. I have taken whole journeys

21:22

around the world in

21:25

my assumptions without fact checking

21:27

the thing. I've written a whole

21:30

story and published it. It's like

21:32

in ink, it's on a shelf and

21:35

chased it wrongly. It's

21:38

shocking, because I feel like

21:40

I knew, but you're right,

21:42

that awkward bit

21:44

about doing that thing, that

21:47

connective tissue bit. But they could never

21:49

really just having a relationship with ourselves.

21:51

That's what I realized. I

21:54

am having entire relationships with other people,

21:56

but with myself, because I

21:58

am not. not

22:00

pressure testing any of my stuff and like in

22:02

real changeable ways like like in my

22:04

marriage. Why don't you do X? It must mean

22:06

that you don't care about it. I've decided you

22:09

don't care about it which leads to my resentment

22:11

which leads to me knowing

22:13

I'm all on my own but

22:15

really like when

22:17

I share it it's like

22:20

oh no I'm not doing that thing

22:22

that I care very deeply about because

22:25

I am reading from you that you

22:29

are not interested in my participation

22:31

about that thing and so we're

22:33

each in our little corners having

22:36

decided what that thing

22:38

means and you're just

22:40

going farther and farther away from each other and

22:43

that's it's scary

22:45

how astray that

22:48

can lead you but with certainty you are certain

22:50

that that is what that thing means. Yeah

22:54

and then like taking

22:56

that assumption of their

22:58

motivation that's where the rubber

23:01

really leaves the road because

23:03

then I started signing malintent

23:05

and I began to attach

23:07

new ideas to that thing

23:10

that I invented and

23:12

making suppositions and predictions and

23:16

yeah I mean that can really snowball and

23:19

that can grow into a

23:21

runaway like downhill spiral so

23:23

I'm with you like noticing

23:26

and also I don't know how you feel about this

23:28

man but in addition to

23:30

also operating so

23:32

often like a one-man band I'm

23:34

conflict diverse and so

23:37

I mean let's just add that

23:39

into the mix like I don't care

23:41

for these hard conversations and

23:43

so maybe we just won't have it. What

23:45

is that like I feel like someone would

23:48

look at you and be like she's about

23:50

us. I feel like

23:52

people probably think that

23:54

I'll just go in someplace and just raise

23:56

hell and then I'm not going to take

23:58

anything. But that's

24:01

not it. I have to work twice as

24:03

hard because I am gonna get what

24:05

I want, but I'm gonna

24:07

have to manage every

24:10

single person's potential reaction to that thing

24:13

in my process of getting to the

24:15

place where I am. I almost wish

24:17

I would just go snowball into

24:19

things. How can you

24:21

be so, what have you figured out

24:24

about that? About how you can be both, I'm

24:27

gonna get what I want and like, am I

24:29

okay? Everyone still loves me, right? Everything's fine. No

24:31

one's mad at even one tiny bit. You

24:34

know, this is the underbelly of

24:36

being in a gram threes like you and I

24:38

are. This is the

24:40

hidden trap door, which

24:43

is an over

24:45

prioritization of

24:48

how people feel about us. Now

24:51

in its altruistic version, when

24:54

we've shined up the penny to present,

24:56

it's because we care about other people's

24:58

feelings. That's the better

25:00

version of it, which has a lot of truth in it. We

25:02

do, we do. Like

25:04

in a way that could be debilitating, frankly,

25:06

but that's the better version of it. But

25:09

adjacent to that is if

25:11

I hurt your feelings or

25:13

if this confrontation creates whatever

25:16

it does, how will

25:18

then you feel about me? What

25:21

does that mean to my reputation

25:23

in your brain and

25:25

in your little ecosystem, wherever I attach

25:28

to it? And so it's not as

25:30

nice as it sounds. Well, cause it's

25:32

all management. We're managing everything.

25:35

We are not actually caring about

25:37

the people's feelings. We

25:39

are managing their feelings about us

25:42

in the process of managing to get to our

25:44

goal. That's the truest, gross.

25:48

But it is a beautiful thing

25:50

because I'll tell you what, we're not

25:52

overwhelmed. I mean, we

25:54

are overwhelmed, but we're not too overwhelmed to go

25:56

rushing towards the thing, which we

25:58

need people like that. We. Need people

26:00

like us who are like I see that

26:03

mountain. Let's. Go. Let's

26:05

go. It is my favorite

26:07

thing about the way that we

26:09

are wired. I'm not very risk

26:11

averse in terms of that. in

26:13

terms of the mountain big dreams

26:15

for myself, other people like the

26:17

world as on when it's externalized

26:19

I find that and easier. Klein,

26:22

it's that more in our

26:24

person all n word lot

26:26

instance spelled here by it's

26:28

all true. That's why people

26:30

keep talking about. I do

26:32

sometimes look sideways at my

26:34

friends who live out of

26:36

their hearts own and couldn't

26:38

possibly go one minute without

26:40

having a meaningful an important

26:42

conversation that needs to be

26:44

had. A like what's it

26:47

like they are for you

26:49

ensure linear Little Earth as

26:51

the thirty. Eight.

26:53

Now that's right. I. Mean

26:55

I have stayed. In

26:57

Relationships. Not just interpersonal and

27:00

so, but also business relationships,

27:02

Work relationships, Partnership relationships. Ten.

27:05

Years past their prime. Ten.

27:08

Years. That's how much I

27:10

don't want to feel disloyal

27:12

or hurt someone's feelings, or

27:15

be disruptive in their work

27:17

or feel like I'm I'm

27:19

grateful for what it is

27:22

that we did build together.

27:24

or that we did create

27:26

together. I mean, At.

27:29

This is why my therapist will just never. Not

27:31

have a job right? It is

27:33

great job. Security fair. To those

27:35

people and I'd love them, they

27:38

deserve it. But yes, it's this

27:40

this thing. As for people like

27:43

us, The. Trick is.

27:46

Just speak sides. you ten make

27:48

it work. Does. It mean

27:50

it's working. And for

27:52

and viewing. Stop. Being

27:55

something. As.

27:57

The. not necessarily failure at some

28:00

sometimes laying something down

28:02

is the most productive thing you can

28:04

do and the kindest thing

28:06

you can do. And

28:08

I very rarely stop and

28:11

like in the flow chart of things. I

28:15

just think what's the next step? How does

28:18

this keep going? How can we

28:20

promise all around it instead of like those

28:22

people who are the heart people and take

28:24

a T and they're like, should this thing

28:26

keep going? That's right. It

28:28

never occurs to me. Are we still good

28:30

in my body? Are

28:33

we still in alignment in a way

28:35

that really serves everybody? So

28:38

yeah, 100% same. I'm

28:41

five steps ahead of whatever I'm on, just

28:43

like you. And so

28:45

that doesn't give a lot of margin

28:47

for evaluation or even honesty

28:49

to be frank, kind of

28:51

a machine. It goes back to the

28:53

therapy session. What do you want? It's

28:56

not, yes, we can

28:58

do it, but the reason why we

29:01

ought more towards the flow chart of what's

29:03

the next step is it's way easier for

29:05

us to figure out what the next step

29:07

is than to do the harder

29:09

work and the more

29:11

vulnerable work of being like, do I

29:14

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31:16

love. Can

31:20

I ask you a question? Can you talk

31:22

a little bit about your

31:24

decision to choose

31:28

sobriety? What led

31:30

to that and what was the internal

31:32

dialogue for you around that? Even leading

31:34

up to it and for how long?

31:36

Then I'd love to hear how that

31:38

has felt to you, what that's meant

31:41

to you in the last four years.

31:43

What do you notice from this? It's

31:46

a pretty big choice. It's a pretty big choice.

31:50

I love that you asked that because I

31:53

feel like often

31:56

choosing not to drink is a very radical

31:58

choice in in our culture

32:02

because it's like you need an

32:04

excuse not to because

32:06

it's so weird and makes everyone so

32:08

uncomfortable or at least that's a

32:11

perception is that that's the case.

32:13

And so it's almost

32:15

like you need to be like, well, I had

32:18

three DUIs and I was locked up and I almost

32:20

lost my kids for people to be like, all right,

32:22

that's fine. You can not drink. You

32:24

sound like one of them. That's right.

32:26

But for me, the honest

32:29

answer is I found myself so

32:34

much of my mental space during

32:37

that time was, am

32:39

I drinking too much? You

32:41

know, I would wake up in the morning and I

32:44

would count the glasses of wine

32:47

I had the night before and I'd

32:49

be like, okay, three, okay.

32:51

All right, two, three, okay, four,

32:53

okay. And I would decide

32:56

whether that was okay and

32:58

still normal. I

33:00

kept trying to figure out if

33:03

I had a problem and it

33:05

was eating up so much of

33:07

my mental space and

33:10

worry and concern about, well,

33:14

if I needed to stop, would

33:17

I be able to? What

33:19

would happen? Like, how would I ever

33:22

relax? How would I ever be

33:24

able to breathe at that? Cause you know,

33:26

thousand, we're both a thousand miles an hour.

33:28

It was like the one lever I could

33:30

pull to be like, I

33:33

am coming off the sprint. And

33:35

so really the math came

33:37

down to me of

33:41

so much of my mental space is trying

33:43

to figure out is plagued

33:46

with worry about, do

33:48

I have a problem? And when will it

33:50

tip to, yes, I do,

33:54

that I needed to

33:57

Unburden myself from that? From.

34:01

The whole analysis I T I.

34:04

Do that. Any.

34:06

More like I don't choose that.

34:09

It. Was less about. The outer.

34:12

Issues and more about like. I

34:15

was drinking to manage. A

34:18

life that was. So

34:21

intense. Ex cept that

34:24

in doing that it was like keep

34:26

going A I can't keep going with

34:28

this place in last at this pace

34:30

in last I can also do this

34:32

thing that helped me. Through it.

34:35

But. Then it reached this point where it

34:37

was like this thing I'm doing to keep.

34:40

My life manageable is becoming such

34:42

an unmanageable piece of my life.

34:45

That sky. Go. So with

34:47

that almost like it sucked. It

34:49

sucked. Especially that like first six

34:51

months sucked A lot bigger. it.

34:54

It did actually because you know

34:56

it's muscle memory. It's like how

34:58

do you even cook without a

35:00

glass of wine is good companions

35:02

is so many things actually exactly.

35:04

It's by also the relief of

35:07

not thinking about it. It was

35:09

like sending me the gift of

35:11

like you never have to think

35:13

about this again Which is ironic

35:15

because you'd think people. Who weren't

35:17

drinking? Had to think about it all

35:20

the time. but at least in my space. I was like.

35:23

I think a hundred years to think about

35:25

my drinking anymore. says. That

35:27

was the blessing. The. Kick

35:29

in the swords is that when you sit

35:31

like what did you notice. The.

35:34

Kick in the sorts of. They started noticing a

35:36

lot of things the city notice. Before. Yeah,

35:39

you're wide awake in your life. guess when

35:41

you don't take the edge off. I.

35:44

Was just all edge all the

35:46

time. And. That.

35:49

Is a challenge but it also

35:51

or i think. Has

35:53

led to some things that. When.

35:56

You can't smooth things over and he have a look at

35:58

them. You have to look at. So.

36:01

If it hadn't been a bad news so I'd So

36:03

I think that has led to me. Being

36:05

force said look at some things that

36:07

weren't working that felt like when they

36:10

were working well enough when I didn't

36:12

have to look at them as directly.

36:15

How did you notice sobriety affecting

36:17

your relationships? Your marriage? Sure. And

36:19

if Horse Clinton Abby, you're sober

36:21

so that's like that. was probably

36:23

a comfy cozy house so comfy

36:25

and icon Bri the yeah that

36:27

I think is wanting. To keep he

36:29

says light. We think when we're giving

36:32

up alcohol were giving up sign it. And

36:34

that's it. The agree that it's like fully

36:36

marketed. I mean growing up, that sort of

36:38

the narrative. yeah it's and debt anything that

36:40

is fines. Also includes alcohol like

36:42

I didn't I wasn't aware of anything

36:45

that wasn't fun at. let's say you

36:47

think well goodbye sign into the rest

36:49

of my life. I.

36:51

Had the enormous blessing.

36:54

As. Being so close

36:57

abbey and been in place and seeing that

36:59

they were the most. Fun people.

37:02

With with the most. Delightful.

37:05

Satisfying life of anyone else I

37:07

know. and none of that included

37:09

alcohol, And so it kind

37:11

of like broke with that framework for

37:13

me that I knew what was possible

37:15

and I'm not quite sure. I

37:18

would have elected it without that because.

37:21

They wouldn't. Have

37:23

wanted. Whatever I saw was the

37:25

alternative. To that it's hard for

37:27

me to isolate. And what? Not drinking

37:29

anymore? Dead. Because it was kind

37:31

of, it all coincided. So I sat

37:33

drinking. October's thirty.

37:37

Nine. Keys. So I

37:40

just. Think. Baby

37:42

Jesus and. Several. Months

37:44

under my belt. By the time

37:46

the pandemic came because had that not

37:49

that was a good god because. I

37:51

would not have stopped. If.

37:53

I was in pandemic good when like

37:56

too much and I think I might

37:58

have. Gone off the rails. in

38:00

pandemic had that not happened,

38:02

but everything kind of

38:05

coincided with being

38:07

in early sobriety. Untamed

38:09

came out March 2020, and

38:12

then we had to like figure out

38:14

that entire world, and that felt

38:16

like there was like this precious

38:19

baby that was under threat, and

38:21

that almost destroyed me too,

38:24

because I was just like determined

38:26

to figure out a way to

38:28

make that work. And

38:31

of course my kids school, you know, they're

38:33

little tiny people trying to look at the

38:35

screen, and that was a disaster, and we

38:38

have neurodiversity issues, and so it was like

38:40

forget it, and then they

38:42

got their diagnoses at

38:45

that very same time too. So it was almost this

38:47

like bomb of all the things

38:50

all at once, and I

38:52

think that kind of stress of

38:54

it all the time without this ability

38:56

to kind of opt out by

38:59

getting toasty. So it's hard for me to

39:01

isolate which one is which, but I think that presented

39:04

a lot of challenges in

39:07

my marriage, because it's very

39:09

easy for me to be like, everything's wrong,

39:12

and I'm

39:15

carrying all of this, and

39:18

I'm having to deal

39:20

with all of this, and also that is

39:22

a much

39:24

more comfortable place for me to

39:27

be than like I am deeply

39:29

scared and deeply sad, and

39:32

grieved by all of these things. And so

39:34

I obviously

39:38

went with the former, and

39:41

that was a very

39:43

hard period for us, and

39:47

we have been working really hard, thank God,

39:49

and are in a really good place right

39:52

now, but I think all of that stress

39:54

and my reaction to

39:57

it, my like knee-jerk place I go,

40:00

And then his response to

40:04

that, we just became

40:06

very polarized in those times.

40:08

And so the more feelings

40:11

I had, more conflict I brought,

40:14

the quieter he became. And

40:17

that was his way of

40:19

stabilizing us. But

40:23

I viewed his quiet as a lack

40:25

of care. Sure. Like

40:27

a withdrawing. Yes. And

40:30

so I became more.

40:36

And so we just became so distant

40:38

in that and only recently have

40:40

realized that we were both trying

40:43

so hard to save

40:47

our relationship.

40:50

And we were each doing it in a way that

40:53

pushed the other completely away. Yeah.

40:56

In a reactive way. In a reactive

40:58

way. Exactly. The

41:00

more he went left, he went right. The more he went right. I said, that

41:02

is evidence of this thing.

41:04

I've decided it is. And

41:07

so we have come back to center on

41:09

that, which is like an act

41:11

of God. It feels like a miracle to

41:13

be like, that's what you were doing. This

41:16

is what I was doing. Oh my God. It's

41:19

so like familiar to hear you

41:21

talk about that. It's so funny

41:23

because for me, and of course

41:26

I'm looking backward at my marriage that I had. I'm

41:29

kind of the like the lead horse in

41:31

my work and in my career and just in

41:34

some of these other areas where I feel

41:36

like this degree of, I don't know,

41:38

competency. I'm not really sure what it is, but

41:41

in my marriage, I

41:43

filled the role and the practices

41:45

and the responses that your husband

41:47

did. I was married

41:50

to a high responder to and

41:53

his you are the I

41:55

these are not a good comparison because that was, there

41:57

was a lot of just tons of Unresolved.

42:00

That into that sauce to which

42:02

it came out crazy and sideways.

42:04

but I would get wider and

42:06

wider and wider and wider. And.

42:09

At. The time because I like to

42:11

tell myself my own story and to

42:13

your earlier point I would brats rather

42:15

than reaching out saying in you help

42:17

me understand this response and how to

42:19

weeds I just. Made an

42:21

assumption about it and then

42:24

operated out of the kind

42:26

of the Sas story. And.

42:30

Now I understand postmortem when

42:32

the only like same thing

42:34

to do after after the

42:36

dissolution. Of us twenty six your

42:38

marriage even when it went up in

42:40

like slaves like wild flames that you

42:42

would. Be. Allowed to

42:44

assign a certain. Story to yes and people

42:47

will let you do it on and they

42:49

want married any back. They want to hear

42:51

that version of the story when you make

42:53

it more. Knew I'd steer like can we

42:55

go to one work He would consist a

42:58

Sega asshole and that can be the end

43:00

of the story. Yes, way tidy or and

43:02

I prefer to there for a minute. For

43:04

sure I'd love to my favorite

43:07

story but. The true or thing

43:09

is to look. Inward and go whenever I

43:11

bring here. And so it's

43:13

been since my divorce that I

43:15

have really began to understand. Exactly

43:18

what it must feel like. Which.

43:21

You know, To. Have a partner

43:23

who is. Going. Why

43:26

it? Or. The. Lauer, you're banging

43:28

the drum and you're being the drum

43:30

for a reason. There's

43:32

a reason and that your

43:34

partner. Who. Is attempting

43:36

to set the equilibrium right. goes

43:39

down and down and down and

43:41

down and tell. I

43:43

am trying and learning what that

43:45

must have felt like. That left

43:47

you feeling really lonely. In.

43:50

Your. Fear. In. The

43:53

chaos in whatever was going sideways

43:55

went to the time with everything

43:57

for you and in mind as

43:59

well. And felt. That

44:01

is part of my work right now. I'm doing the work

44:03

that your has a suing. Which. Is

44:05

engage. Like. Engage in

44:08

Gauge Sad is that engagement?

44:10

actually. Would probably bring it more like this.

44:12

Exactly. It's

44:15

still wilde to hear you say

44:17

that because no one is. Right

44:20

or wrong in that like a relationship

44:22

to have some equilibrium and sued of

44:24

bar. There you go this nature the

44:26

more the other person has to go

44:28

dismay and what I have learned is

44:31

that no one wants to be in

44:33

those places. That fry

44:35

elitist. No one's winning. No one's

44:37

winning even though it's often looks

44:39

looks like the loudest person wants

44:42

to be there are why would

44:44

they keep being. So.

44:46

Obnoxiously loud and that the quiet person

44:48

wants to be quiet and and these

44:50

are like very broad over as soon

44:52

as they see the for lot of

44:54

things of course we feel like least

44:57

have to go there to see the

44:59

see saw from losing. I'm just going

45:01

off the rails but I also just

45:03

wanna say that what I have learned.

45:06

Is how lonely it is to be

45:08

where you are. Because.

45:10

I know that from my

45:12

husband to be so like

45:14

where he was in the

45:17

position your in and and.

45:19

What? Looks like. The.

45:21

Living Dead which enraged me because I'm like

45:23

you, you're going head and I need you

45:25

to live and be here with. Me:

45:27

didn't you are actually having

45:30

to suppress so. Much

45:32

of your so it looks. Like you're

45:34

doing nothing but you were actually. Proceed

45:37

saying. And pushing

45:39

down. All.

45:41

Of these feelings that you have on who

45:44

you are, all that you were meant to

45:46

bring out to the relationship. In

45:48

order to keep their relationship. Steady.

45:51

As you view it and Ban is a

45:53

deeply lonely place to be it whereas I

45:55

would be like you see me struggling and

45:57

you don't care enough to come out here.

45:59

And meet me. I'm sure the

46:01

other side felt like, you

46:03

see me going dead and you're not even

46:05

coming in to get me. You

46:07

don't need an alive me here. That's

46:11

right. Your part is so

46:13

overwhelming and it's so all-encompassing

46:15

and it is so loud

46:17

and reactive.

46:20

There's no more room. Neither.

46:22

You are so right. You sound like a person who's

46:25

been in therapy. Like this is all the stuff I

46:27

learned in therapy to. I just

46:29

did it on my side of it and went, okay,

46:32

that's not a winning scenario for

46:34

this. Even though you're right, it feels

46:36

like there might be a winner and loser in

46:38

it. There's not. Those are two like really

46:40

lonely corners to be in. And

46:43

so it's work. It is

46:45

really work to find that other

46:48

style of communication. And

46:50

I've noticed that

46:54

I still have those tendencies. So

46:56

I am a different person who

46:58

has a different style of everything.

47:00

Communication, conflict resolution, all of it.

47:02

Like a completely different type of

47:04

human. And yet here I am. I'm

47:08

like, oh, when

47:10

you don't say the words, the

47:12

other person just can't know them. That's

47:15

just not something they just

47:18

can't know them. Just by looking at

47:20

your face and being like, I sense

47:22

what you need and mean. That

47:25

is how it works. The words

47:27

carry the thing. It's so

47:29

easy to be in relationships with other people. It

47:32

is. It's just the breeziest

47:34

thing I've ever been involved with. It's

47:36

relaxing. It's relaxing. When you talk about

47:38

the different sides and like nobody wants

47:40

to be there, it's like

47:44

makes me think of when you're saying about

47:46

the stories we tell about ourselves. Because

47:49

those go together so much.

47:53

My husband's story, I'm

47:55

sure about me during that time is She's

47:57

a control freak. It's going to happen.

48:00

End up being what she's decided anyway.

48:02

So what's the point in contributing of

48:04

my thoughts about it? You know? I'm

48:07

sure it's like she wanted to issue

48:09

and sit. Wherever and.

48:12

I'm sorry contributed a lot of that. I'm sorry disregarded

48:14

a lot of the successes he may. I'm sure there

48:16

is like he was basing that on. Data.

48:19

And source and also I

48:21

would have said yes. I

48:24

know how it needs to be

48:26

done. I. Know

48:29

how to get it done and and a do. But.

48:31

What I have recently realized

48:34

is that like I actually

48:36

have a hunch that all

48:38

people that many people. Who.

48:41

Either view themselves are viewed

48:43

in their relationships. As control freaks.

48:46

Actually, what they want the most is to

48:48

not be in control of everything. That.

48:51

They. Feel like they have to

48:54

be in control of everything because that

48:56

is the way that they showed their

48:58

love of the is a taken care

49:00

of things. But what they want more

49:02

than anything else is for someone to

49:04

step up and be like. I

49:07

got this. I got you.

49:10

You. Don't have to be in control of this.

49:13

And that then the sea

49:16

sauce Than that person who's

49:18

always uptight and in control

49:20

and odds and ends. Because.

49:23

The other person is carrying the ball. And

49:27

be other things. That.

49:29

So bed and it's really important here

49:31

I am. My brain right now is

49:34

thinking about how many people are listener

49:36

this and have. That relational dynamic

49:38

inside their partnership or marriage. Either

49:40

way, like whichever role they occupy

49:42

and it's like a light bulb.

49:45

Like it isn't It isn't just because

49:47

it is my where the highway and

49:49

I will steam roll over everybody that

49:52

lives in his home and said that's

49:54

not it and you know at a

49:56

minute. So funny cause I can now

49:58

look back with the humility. of

50:00

being four years out of sort of

50:02

the disintegration of my relationship. And

50:05

I can honestly say, I see

50:07

that. I see the places that I

50:09

phoned in some of the labor, heavy

50:12

labor, big decisions,

50:14

huge financial pieces of

50:17

our shared life, which is massive. The

50:19

five kids, like that is so

50:21

much work. It is

50:23

so many details. We have

50:25

so many moving parts, businesses,

50:27

LLCs, nonprofits, the children,

50:30

the cops. And I was like, this

50:33

is me. Hope it's going okay. Hope

50:35

that's fine. I don't know what any of

50:38

it is. I don't know how to

50:40

do taxes. I don't know what our mortgage is. I

50:43

don't know any of it, but like, I don't

50:45

wanna know. That is

50:47

lame. And

50:51

that was a lot of labor that should

50:53

have been shared. And of

50:55

course that would create resentment and

50:57

more control. But like,

50:59

had I come in at any moment and said,

51:03

okay, I'm gonna take this,

51:05

this, this, and this right off your plate.

51:07

I'm gonna learn it. I'm gonna figure it out.

51:09

And I'm gonna see it through. And

51:11

you can take that like right off your mental

51:13

load. I'll never know. I never

51:15

gave it a chance. You know, I

51:18

never had that self-awareness. I never had

51:20

that level of, I wasn't willing

51:23

to really listen because I

51:25

just saw a reaction and then assigned meaning

51:27

to it. And then put

51:29

myself on the victim side of

51:31

things. And it's a cycle. Like you could, had

51:33

you not been in that place. Yeah, then it

51:36

fulfilled. Exactly. I mean, that's why it's such

51:38

a vicious cycle because you get so

51:40

far along on it. There is no

51:43

going back because you've already felt belittled

51:45

and diminished and what you

51:47

say doesn't matter. That

51:49

there comes a point in time where there is no going

51:51

back in and saying, I've got this. It

51:54

really, the snowball's too big

51:56

then. And we both contribute

51:59

to it. No, it's just, which

52:01

is why it's really cool that you're noticing it now, because

52:05

it's a lot easier to reshape,

52:07

you know, a little snowball you can hold

52:09

in your hand. That's right, it's just

52:11

a baby. It's a baby. It's

52:14

a teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny snowball.

52:17

And I can catch it by the tail usually

52:19

the same day, which for me is progress. Like-

52:21

Oh my God, the same day.

52:24

That's varsity. I'm not

52:26

in the same moment yet. I sometimes see it an hour.

52:29

You don't want to be one of those heart people that

52:31

can just do it immediately. That's too much. That's

52:34

right, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's

52:36

way too evolved. Like, no, no, thank you. But

52:39

usually by the end of the day, I could be like, I'd

52:41

like to revisit something that I said on here.

52:45

And I think what I said was,

52:48

what I was meaning was,

52:50

anyway, we can learn. We're

52:52

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56:03

I just want to ask you one last question before I

56:06

let you go because I

56:08

just found it so

56:10

profound and so lovely

56:13

and so, so

56:15

very her in a way that I don't even

56:17

know how to describe, but your episode

56:19

with Liz where you wrote

56:21

the love letter, well love wrote the letter to

56:23

you, that's really more right. I

56:25

mean, I was just like on the edge of my seat listening

56:27

to every second of it of course and

56:30

first of all, I don't know how Liz

56:32

gets to be like that. I

56:34

don't know how a person is the

56:36

way that she is, that how

56:39

the thoughts like just come out of her mouth.

56:41

I know she didn't script it, she's just responding

56:43

to the thing, but I'm like, how

56:45

do you do that? Anyway, whatever, she says her

56:48

own special thing in the world. It can't be

56:50

known, it can't be known about her. It can't

56:52

be known, it just can't be known, it can

56:54

only be observed or

56:56

in your case experienced. And so, just this

56:59

is, I mean obviously this could be 14

57:02

hours of their own episodes, but if

57:04

you could just talk for one moment

57:06

about that practice, that exercise, what

57:09

she made you do. She made me

57:11

do it, it was terrible. No, she

57:13

really did. No, she really did. And you

57:15

were last to the table too, like a

57:18

week late at that. I mean, that didn't be,

57:20

that would have been me. Of course, that would

57:23

have been me. Oh gosh. Okay, yes. I want

57:25

to tell the good people about this because to

57:28

some people this will seem like going

57:30

to spa and for some people it

57:32

will seem like torture. But this, Liz

57:36

Gilbert has been, her

57:39

most long standing spiritual practice

57:41

is every morning

57:44

she writes down,

57:47

love, what would you have me know

57:49

today? And

57:52

she hears from love, she

57:55

calls it love, she calls it God, she calls

57:57

it, you know. She

58:00

hears what she needs to know that day.

58:04

And if you're anything

58:07

like me, your response might be,

58:10

but aren't you just writing to your,

58:12

it's you though writing, it's you. That's

58:15

what's happening there. You're calling it

58:17

something different. But you write the

58:19

question and then you write the answer. And

58:22

so she had Abby do it and she

58:25

had Glennon do it. And they had these gorgeous

58:27

letters that came back to them.

58:34

And then she asked me to do it. And I was like, okay. And

58:37

so I spent several weeks just like begging love.

58:43

Wherever you are in love, is there a way

58:45

that you could not, is

58:48

it pointless Gilbert? That would be great.

58:51

I mean, that's just what I was trying to get at.

58:53

I didn't really expect much out of this. I

58:55

didn't expect much out of this, but

58:57

I noticed and this is what was

59:00

interesting to me. And what actually ended

59:03

up really being profound to me

59:05

was that I

59:07

kept having ideas from my brain

59:11

about what would make a good letter. Like

59:13

had a note section on my phone and I'd be like,

59:15

oh, this would be a good letter from love. I should

59:17

let love know about this. When I write this back to

59:19

myself, I'll be sure to

59:21

remember this. Maybe I can drop a note

59:24

to love and suggest this as a topic.

59:26

Because- I've got some show notes for you love.

59:28

Yes. Yes. Exactly.

59:31

God, I would suggest that this be the topic

59:33

of your letter, of your message

59:35

to me. So how

59:37

I am. Okay. And I

59:39

couldn't turn my

59:42

brain off. I

59:45

could feel it. I could feel like when I

59:47

sat down, I was like, I

59:49

couldn't eliminate the wanting

59:51

my letter to be good.

59:54

From wanting just to receive whatever

59:57

message it was. And that

59:59

I feel like- like as an analogy for my

1:00:01

entire life. Like, I as well,

1:00:03

I'm just adopting it. Right. I

1:00:06

want it to this. This

1:00:08

is an opportunity to have an impressive good

1:00:10

letter. How can I let go of what

1:00:15

it would look like to be, for

1:00:17

have it be good versus

1:00:20

what would it take to have it

1:00:22

be real? And

1:00:24

good and real for me have often

1:00:26

been very different in

1:00:28

my life. And so I just

1:00:33

like said a prayer and I

1:00:36

had to give myself permission. I had to be like, if

1:00:39

this letter sucks and it will embarrass

1:00:41

you, you don't have

1:00:43

to send it in. Great.

1:00:45

You gave yourself an escape hack. Yes.

1:00:49

It's not like you have to analyze every word that comes

1:00:51

out of this, and you're going to be embarrassed by it,

1:00:53

and you can throw it directly in the garbage, and then

1:00:55

you can have your brain write one and just make, trying

1:00:57

to make it reverse engineered to make it sound like it

1:00:59

was a little bit of a

1:01:01

problem. I love talking, but it came

1:01:03

out and I knew it was not actually from me

1:01:05

in my brain because

1:01:08

it wasn't something that I thought was good or

1:01:10

impressive. And

1:01:14

that was amazing because I was like,

1:01:18

this is not what I would have written. This

1:01:20

is not what I would have prepared. And what

1:01:23

came out was this. This is how

1:01:25

I knew it was definitely not me because it was a

1:01:27

very long football and

1:01:30

it was about how

1:01:32

my brain was

1:01:34

the only player I was letting on the field because

1:01:38

my brain was the most reliable player on my

1:01:40

team to help me win.

1:01:43

And about how maybe life

1:01:46

could look if

1:01:50

other players got to come

1:01:52

like, oh, there was

1:01:54

satisfiability with one of the players.

1:01:57

Silliness, all these

1:01:59

other. things that are part of me but

1:02:01

that I don't let show

1:02:04

up until

1:02:06

I'm sure that brain has already like

1:02:09

locked down the wind then they can come in and like

1:02:11

do their little cute thing but I'm

1:02:13

not gonna rely on them as if they

1:02:15

are things that

1:02:17

can be generated by players. Exactly. That

1:02:20

felt real to me it was

1:02:22

a lot about how the

1:02:24

irony of even having it be

1:02:26

a game because it's like... Like

1:02:29

what are you going around talking about football? Really?

1:02:31

You are not. It's absurd.

1:02:34

Even the structure of the metaphor

1:02:36

was clearly sent from somewhere else.

1:02:38

Exactly! Brain was like we do

1:02:40

not cosign but the part that

1:02:42

came out about like the keeping

1:02:44

of the score there is no

1:02:47

score to any of this. You

1:02:49

are the only one keeping score. You

1:02:51

are so fixated on the score of

1:02:55

this life but

1:02:57

there is no score except the one

1:02:59

in your head that you were exhausting

1:03:02

yourself to death trying to

1:03:04

keep a score and figure out where you've won

1:03:06

and figure out where other people have disappointed you

1:03:08

and slighted you and not

1:03:10

met your expectations but

1:03:12

that is a fiction.

1:03:14

The score is a fiction. We're not being

1:03:17

scored which

1:03:19

makes it kind of

1:03:21

silly to be basing your whole life

1:03:23

on a made-up score that only you are

1:03:26

keeping. It's like it's so

1:03:29

powerful that it like lodges right in

1:03:31

my heart. It's not even a scoreboard. What

1:03:34

are we doing? It's a lot of

1:03:36

energy. It's a lot of anxiety. It's a

1:03:38

lot of stress and

1:03:40

what scares me when I hear that a little

1:03:43

is because

1:03:45

I run that game. I cue

1:03:48

be my own life hard and

1:03:51

what am I missing? That's what I

1:03:53

think. What could a day be? Liz said

1:03:56

something in that interview. I'm gonna get this a

1:03:58

little bit wrong. I'm remembering. but she

1:04:00

was like, said how

1:04:02

sometimes are often like

1:04:04

in a real season of like chaos

1:04:06

and motion and production and

1:04:09

whatever. That when she

1:04:11

asked love, because one thing she said

1:04:13

is sometimes you can ask love what to do, not just what to

1:04:15

know. And she says, love usually

1:04:18

said, get some water and lay down. And

1:04:21

I'm like, did love say

1:04:23

that? Is that a real

1:04:26

message? Lovely. The

1:04:29

wisdom is profound. But

1:04:31

the reason that's so profound about

1:04:33

get some water is like the

1:04:37

permission and the audacity

1:04:39

to think that you are worthy

1:04:42

of spending your day or

1:04:46

even an hour of your day laying down.

1:04:48

Like it isn't the water, it's the permission.

1:04:50

And I think that

1:04:52

is why we keep the score to prove

1:04:54

to ourselves that we are worthy to prove

1:04:57

to ourselves that we are

1:04:59

worthy of the life that we're having. Because

1:05:01

if not, we just have to call

1:05:03

ourselves worthy. We just have to accept

1:05:05

that that is true. And I think

1:05:07

about Ronnie Ware,

1:05:10

who she

1:05:12

was a nurse, a hospice nurse, and she's

1:05:14

the one who took all

1:05:16

of those interviews of her

1:05:18

patients who were dying. And

1:05:20

she wrote that the five. I've had her on the

1:05:23

show. Oh my gosh, of course you have. Yeah, of

1:05:25

course you have. But her.

1:05:27

Oh, it's brilliant. Brilliant. I

1:05:29

do some just remembering it.

1:05:31

Yes. One of the five

1:05:34

regrets that people have are, I

1:05:37

wish I had let myself be

1:05:39

happier. And that is crazy

1:05:42

to me because it's not I wish my life had

1:05:44

been happier. I wish I would have had

1:05:46

happier things. It's I

1:05:49

wish I would have let

1:05:52

myself be happier because

1:05:55

it's just a permission. It's

1:05:59

just a claiming. of the

1:06:01

happiness that is already there. Well, it's already here.

1:06:03

It's already here. I cannot throw

1:06:05

a rock and not hit it. So

1:06:09

that's what it is. It's the permission and

1:06:12

the acceptance of the invitation. And

1:06:15

for me, where the

1:06:18

Liz brand of magic makes

1:06:20

it all electrifying is

1:06:23

uplinking the whole mechanism to the idea

1:06:25

of love. This is

1:06:27

loving. This is what love

1:06:29

would have. This is what love

1:06:31

has to offer. This is what love wants for

1:06:33

us. Like this is love's

1:06:36

whole plan for the whole thing. It

1:06:38

isn't the scoreboard. Like there isn't even one.

1:06:41

There isn't even one, turns out. It's

1:06:43

the water and the nap and the

1:06:46

let yourself be happy. I just, it's

1:06:49

so beautiful that I'm like writing notes as you're

1:06:51

talking like the things that are jogging. But I

1:06:54

was so proud of you for going

1:06:57

into that exercise. With

1:06:59

your little heart open,

1:07:02

turned out. When you

1:07:04

said, you know it was not from your

1:07:06

brain because it didn't feel impressive, that zinged

1:07:08

my head just now. I'm

1:07:10

putting that as something else I have in my life, but I

1:07:12

just had an enormous light bulb went on

1:07:15

over my head just now that I've never thought of. So

1:07:18

thank you for saying that. But I

1:07:20

think that it is so,

1:07:22

I feel so lucky to be getting

1:07:24

to do what I do now.

1:07:28

Whatever it is that you and I do, what

1:07:31

is life at the same time as

1:07:33

you. And that we

1:07:35

get to love our little people and

1:07:40

each other and the women right now

1:07:42

together, learning

1:07:45

together, turning the mirror inward together. There's no other

1:07:47

way, wish there was. I would know it if

1:07:49

there was. Yeah, I would be doing that instead

1:07:51

if there were. No, no, I would choose that.

1:07:54

So it didn't

1:07:56

work. So I

1:07:59

just feel like profound. I am profoundly grateful for who

1:08:01

you are in the world. And

1:08:03

you have such a really special

1:08:05

wisdom. Your brain is

1:08:07

a part of it because your brain is

1:08:10

smart, but for me, it's

1:08:12

all heart. And when I hear you talk,

1:08:14

when I hear you make observations, when I

1:08:16

hear you draw conclusions, and when I

1:08:18

hear you sort of self-examine,

1:08:21

I'm just like, whatever that sentence

1:08:23

was, it is true. It

1:08:26

is true, and it is honest, and it is good.

1:08:28

And I just think that's what you bring to the

1:08:30

world, and I love it. I don't

1:08:32

know if you went willingly

1:08:34

into your podcast, or

1:08:37

if you got, did Glennon make

1:08:39

you do it? And Abby, who can deny them?

1:08:42

I mean, I couldn't. Apparently not me, but

1:08:44

no. Apparently not

1:08:46

you. I will do anything for

1:08:48

love, but I will not do that. I

1:08:52

tend, they said

1:08:54

you should go well, and it turns out I would. But

1:08:56

I love it. I

1:09:00

mean, what an offering

1:09:03

to the world at the time when the

1:09:05

world needed it, and now it

1:09:08

has a life of its own, your

1:09:10

community, all of it. But I'm glad

1:09:12

that they bullied you and that you

1:09:14

couldn't resist. I am glad. I'm glad

1:09:16

I'm so co-dependent. I was like, okay.

1:09:19

Jen Hatmaker, you are a joy and

1:09:22

a light in this world, and

1:09:25

I really, I am very

1:09:28

thankful to be on the planet at the same

1:09:30

time. I am so grateful. I

1:09:33

just feel amazed at what

1:09:35

every single person

1:09:37

is doing every day in life.

1:09:40

Like, it is so hard.

1:09:44

Everyone is caring so much,

1:09:48

and we only see a fraction

1:09:50

of it, and people are just

1:09:53

unbelievable. And I just feel

1:09:55

so proud of everyone. I

1:09:57

do too. My friend Sarah Bessie always has a great time. It's

1:10:00

so hard to be a person. And I'm like,

1:10:02

we all have to do it. Every one of

1:10:04

us has to just go be a person like

1:10:06

every day of their lives. And so what

1:10:09

a miracle. Okay, this is

1:10:11

truly it. This is truly it. Cause

1:10:13

then you have to go. Last

1:10:15

question, it could be answered however you want, everybody

1:10:17

gets the answer. What is saving your life right

1:10:19

now? It could be real, it could be

1:10:21

dumb. It could be anything in between. I

1:10:24

feel like what is saving my life

1:10:27

is that honestly,

1:10:30

I think God was like, how are

1:10:32

we going to get this girl to

1:10:34

do some self analysis and

1:10:37

to be vulnerable and

1:10:39

the important stuff like that. And then

1:10:41

God was like, I know, we'll

1:10:44

trick her into thinking it's a work to do list.

1:10:47

And that is

1:10:49

what happened with the podcast because

1:10:51

they were like, you're doing this podcast.

1:10:54

Oh, I die. So I had

1:10:56

to like in preparation for that,

1:11:00

what on my to-do list things

1:11:02

like figure out what's going

1:11:04

on with yourself here. And

1:11:07

because it was work, I took it

1:11:09

seriously. And

1:11:11

then it was

1:11:14

like an amazing master plan because then it

1:11:16

could taste it. Like it's kind of like,

1:11:19

I feel like we're so overworked and so

1:11:21

overscheduled and we have too much

1:11:23

to do. And so we're

1:11:25

like, we're stuffed

1:11:28

to the brim. And then

1:11:30

someone's like, do you want joy and

1:11:32

fun and friendship and vulnerability and connection?

1:11:34

And we're like, no, because we're already,

1:11:37

it just feels like more things

1:11:39

were consuming. That feels hard. It's just

1:11:41

too much. I'm already full. What the hell

1:11:43

would I do with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:11:45

But then doing this stuff on the pod,

1:11:48

it gave me the taste

1:11:50

of like what it

1:11:52

feels like and how it's good.

1:11:55

It's good and it doesn't taste the same

1:11:57

as the other stuff we're filling ourselves with.

1:12:00

And so I feel like

1:12:02

what's saving me right now

1:12:04

is that little bit of

1:12:06

craving for more

1:12:09

human, less machines. And

1:12:14

it's just a little, but it's just enough.

1:12:17

Just enough. Yeah, that's

1:12:19

about how much I have to. Yeah. It

1:12:22

occupies like one little zip

1:12:24

code in my entire ecosystem, but I like

1:12:26

it. It's there. It's a revolution. I'll take

1:12:28

it. It raises its little hand like, what

1:12:32

if we did this for no

1:12:34

reason at all? I'm like, ooh,

1:12:36

crazy. All right. Crazy. Okay,

1:12:41

that's it. I love you. I

1:12:43

love you so much. You love you. Love you. All

1:12:46

right. All

1:12:56

right, guys. It's

1:12:58

a zillion things in there. A zillion

1:13:01

things I didn't even get to. I

1:13:03

had, oh, well, there's just too much there. And

1:13:06

so I hope that was encouraging to you

1:13:08

in the same way that it was to

1:13:10

me, that this is the work. What

1:13:13

a notion to walk away

1:13:15

from even just something as simple as a

1:13:17

podcast episode and go, no one's

1:13:20

keeping score, man. No one's

1:13:22

keeping score. What

1:13:24

if that was something we believed? Because

1:13:27

if we believed that there wasn't even

1:13:29

a scoreboard, what

1:13:31

would that change? Such a

1:13:34

beautiful, for a worker

1:13:36

and a doer like me, this is

1:13:38

like a glass of water on

1:13:40

a hot day. So thank you,

1:13:42

Amanda. I surely do love you. And

1:13:45

I just respect you and admire you so much. And

1:13:47

I'm so glad you were on the show today.

1:13:49

You guys, we have more to come in this

1:13:52

amazing series. It's kind of like this. Right?

1:13:55

Like, what and who can help

1:13:57

us kind of get into our bodies, get into

1:13:59

our bones? push aside all of this

1:14:01

that we do, all the ways that

1:14:03

we hustle, all the things that

1:14:05

we worry about, all the things that we

1:14:07

obsess about. What if we were

1:14:09

able to shove those to the side of the room for a

1:14:12

while and see what was left? See

1:14:14

who we are in the quiet. See what

1:14:16

we deserve just because we were born. See

1:14:19

the value in the work that we carry simply

1:14:22

because everyone does, right? That's

1:14:24

what this series is about. So come

1:14:26

back next week. If you haven't already subscribed, do it.

1:14:29

Wherever you listen to your podcast, just hit that subscribe

1:14:31

button and you'll never miss any more. You're

1:14:34

not going to want to miss any in this series, I

1:14:36

promise you. So thank you for being here, guys. We sure

1:14:38

love you. So on behalf of

1:14:40

Laura and her team of four eyes and

1:14:42

Amanda and I, it's our pleasure. It's

1:14:44

our pleasure to make this show for you. And we love it

1:14:46

so much and we love you. See you next week. Before

1:15:00

the Love podcast with Jen Hatmaker is

1:15:03

a presentation of Odyssey and produced by

1:15:05

Four Eyes Media with Laura Knightling, producer,

1:15:08

Abby Stevens, production director, Greg

1:15:10

Rieck-Demario, production assistant, and Lauren

1:15:13

Winfield, researcher. Odyssey's

1:15:15

executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman

1:15:18

and Leah Reiss-Dennis. Special

1:15:20

thanks to the team at

1:15:22

Odyssey, Maura Curran, Melissa Wester,

1:15:24

Matt Casey, Kate Hutchinson, Eric

1:15:26

Donnelly, Erin Constantino, Kurt Courtney,

1:15:28

and Hilary Shupp. Listen

1:15:31

and follow Four the Love, an Odyssey

1:15:33

podcast produced by Four Eyes Media on

1:15:35

Odyssey app or wherever you get your

1:15:37

podcasts. This

1:15:50

is a production of Four Eyes Media.