0:00

When I wrote my first book, having

0:02

an online store was the furthest thing

0:04

for my mind. Now I'm able to

0:06

share my books, fun t-shirts, more,

0:08

all in my online shop. It is so

0:10

easy, all because I use

0:13

Shopify. Shopify

0:16

is the global commerce platform that

0:18

helps you sell at every stage

0:20

of your business. With the Internet's

0:22

best converting checkout, 36% better on

0:24

average compared to other leading commerce

0:26

platforms, Shopify helps you turn browsers

0:28

into buyers. Shopify powers 10% In fact, Shopify

0:30

powers 10% of all e-commerce

0:32

in the US. Sign up

0:34

for a $1 per month

0:36

trial period at shopify.com/podcast free,

0:38

all lowercase, Sign up for a $1 shopify.com/podcast

0:41

free, shopify.com slash.

0:50

to grow your business, no matter what stage

0:53

you're in. shopify.com/For The Love.

0:55

Have you ever noticed how

0:57

celebrities have brighter, whiter looking

1:00

eyes? Their makeup artists

1:02

have a little secret in their

1:04

kit. Lumify, redness, reliever, eyedrops. You

1:07

guys, I use these every single

1:09

day. Lumify dramatically reduces redness in

1:11

just one minute. It literally happens

1:14

right before your eyes to help them look

1:16

brighter, whiter, and more awake for up to

1:18

eight hours. No wonder it

1:20

is so loved by influencers, celebrities,

1:22

and makeup artists and has over

1:24

6,000 five-star reviews

1:26

on Amazon. Lumify is also the

1:28

number one eye doctor recommended redness,

1:30

reliever, eyedrops, and it's FDA approved.

1:33

No bleach, no dyes. Plus, it's made by

1:35

the eye care experts at Bausch & Loem.

1:38

So whether you're on set, on a date, or

1:40

running on just a few hours of sleep, you

1:43

can have eyes that look brighter and whiter with

1:45

Lumify eyedrops. And when you try

1:47

it, you'll see that it is

1:49

what your eyes have been looking

1:51

for. So check

1:54

out lumifyeyes.com to

1:56

learn more. I

2:01

don't welcome back to the didn't

2:03

have a Girl but Club podcast

2:06

will I have been looking forwards

2:08

had this month. For. This

2:10

book and this author since last

2:12

summer. When am I save her books?

2:14

I read last year a handsome. Is

2:17

this month. We. Are

2:19

reading? Take my hand. Wow

2:22

sir. It's.

2:25

Historical fiction. Just going back

2:27

to the seventies. I don't want to say too much,

2:29

but I read it last year and you'll hear me

2:31

tell her this, but I read that last year at

2:34

me camp. And. I just cannot quit thinking

2:36

about I talked about it's everybody who would listen. I

2:38

had asked my book club. Team before

2:41

I was finished with it. To.

2:43

Figure out how to get into book club. It's

2:45

like that. It's that said, if

2:47

a month it is powerful and

2:49

palpable. and it's literally the Unforgettable.

2:51

It's funny, because as I was

2:53

interviewing Dolan today, About say about

2:55

the author. I have not read that

2:57

book since last July. like that's when I finished.

3:00

I have not picked it back up again even.

3:02

Though it's in my book club society

3:04

where he but I remember every fit

3:06

of it. Every bit of

3:09

it. I remember dialogue. I remember

3:11

everything about every character. and it's

3:13

just. Memorable.

3:16

This is a really gifted writer

3:19

we have today. says she's gonna

3:21

tell us about. How this

3:23

story came to be house he learned

3:25

about the original history behind it. It's

3:27

a true. Story obviously sits

3:30

in allies and what

3:32

she discovered. It was something I'd

3:34

never heard us. And it's Massive. And

3:37

he did system massive story in American

3:39

history and until I read take My

3:41

Hand, I didn't even know about it.

3:43

And it went down the year before

3:45

I was born. So it's not even

3:47

like it's that ancient of history, right?

3:49

And so I'm getting had myself. We're

3:51

talking today with Dolan Perkins, Valdis, and.

3:54

What a novelist see as. Her

3:56

day job with Susan associate

3:58

professor. of literature at

4:00

American University up in DC, which

4:02

is where she lives with her family. By the

4:04

way, Take My Hand is not her first New York

4:07

Times bestselling book. She also wrote

4:09

The Amazing Winch, and

4:11

she also wrote Balm. But

4:14

today we're talking about Take My Hand, which, by

4:16

the way, well

4:18

deserved, won the 2023 NAACP Image

4:20

Award for

4:24

outstanding literary work in

4:27

fiction. Of course it did.

4:30

Like, just of course it did. Okay, I'm

4:32

gonna give you the very high level

4:35

about this book, because you're gonna wanna

4:37

listen to this conversation. I really loved

4:40

her. She is delightful and like engaging.

4:42

Here's the high level of Take My Hand.

4:44

So this is a novel set in

4:48

historical fact about a

4:50

black young nurse in

4:52

post-segregation Alabama who

4:55

ends up blowing the whistle on abuse

4:59

done to her patients in

5:01

the form of non-consensual

5:04

sterilization. And

5:07

not just on women, but

5:09

as you'll see in this book, on girls, particularly

5:12

black girls, poor

5:14

girls, disabled girls, or

5:17

a combination of those. So

5:19

the story begins when Syville Townsend, who's

5:22

our young nurse, she's fresh out of nursing school,

5:24

and she's got big dreams to make a difference.

5:26

She's like all heart. And

5:28

then very quickly she gets a dose of the

5:30

real world and has to figure out what to

5:33

do with what she's seen. All a

5:35

true story. It is infuriating,

5:38

it is outrageous,

5:40

it's heartbreaking, it's

5:42

heartwarming. This book took

5:44

me on a rollercoaster. And I felt everything.

5:47

I was telling Dolan that I remember specifically

5:49

sitting on the front porch of my original

5:51

house during me camp last year when

5:53

I was reading it with my coffee next to me that

5:55

wish had gone cold with tears just

5:58

streaming down my face. It's like that. So

6:00

this is a book you're going

6:02

to want to read, but first of all, listen to

6:05

this conversation because you are going to love this

6:07

author as much as I did.

6:09

So without any further ado, please

6:11

welcome the delightful Dolan

6:14

Perkins Valdez. I'm

6:21

genuinely delighted to have you on the

6:23

show, Dolan. Thank you for

6:25

being here. Thanks for your time. I'm

6:28

thrilled to meet you. Thank

6:30

you. I'm so happy to be here. So

6:34

I do this thing every year.

6:36

It started almost four years ago when I lost

6:38

my marriage. I've been married for like 26 years,

6:40

and so I've never really even been an adult

6:42

by myself. And in

6:45

sort of a weird twist of events, I

6:48

ended up in Maine in

6:50

a little town by myself,

6:53

solo travel for three weeks, right

6:55

on the coast at Bar Harbor. And it

6:57

was so restorative and regenerative that I

6:59

have done it every summer since, just

7:02

travel by myself to some little tiny

7:04

small town that's darling. And

7:06

it's just, I walk everywhere,

7:08

like ride a bike. And it's just

7:10

this really, life kind of comes down

7:12

to the small space for three or four

7:14

weeks. It's amazing. I love that. Here's my

7:16

point. I was in this little

7:19

sweet town on the Delaware River, just

7:21

a walkable, sweet, old New England town.

7:24

And I cannot remember how it got in

7:26

my hands, but I brought, take my

7:28

hand with me. I had a stack of

7:30

books. And when I tell you, when I

7:32

look back at pictures, I'm tickled. I have that

7:34

book everywhere I went, every restaurant, every

7:37

little library, by the banks of the

7:39

river. I mean, I did not put

7:41

that book down until I finished it. It was

7:44

phenomenal. I had texted my book club team

7:46

before I was halfway done and said, figure

7:49

out how to get this book in book club. Like

7:51

this is 100% a book

7:53

I want to bring to my readers. And so

7:55

it's just marvelous. Thank you. That's

7:58

wonderful. I love imagining. you

8:00

being in that small town and taking a book

8:02

with you everywhere. Oh, tears pouring

8:04

down my face. I mean, I

8:07

was transported. I might've been in New

8:09

Jersey, but in my head, I was in the Deep

8:11

South. You're such a good

8:13

writer, not just a good storyteller,

8:15

but also a good writer as

8:17

your storytelling. I

8:20

was just absolutely captivated

8:23

with this book. It deserves every

8:25

award it has received, and

8:28

all this press. Congratulations.

8:31

You honor this work.

8:33

Thank you. There's nothing

8:35

else to do, but just tip my hat to

8:37

it because it was so good. Let's

8:39

start here. Thank you for letting me monologue here

8:41

for a minute and tell you how I felt about your book. Before

8:44

we dive into the story,

8:48

can you just for a moment

8:50

talk to my listeners about you,

8:53

and where you are in the world? How

8:55

is it that you came to be a

8:58

novelist? The rarest there, it's

9:00

hard to be a novelist, period. It's

9:02

hard to get published more. It's hard

9:04

to win awards, never. You've

9:07

captured some really rare space here. I'm

9:10

from Memphis, Tennessee. I was born and raised

9:12

in Memphis. We call it the Mid-South, but

9:14

in many ways, like the Deep South, because

9:16

we're right off the border of Mississippi

9:19

and Arkansas. I

9:23

was raised really in the

9:25

bosom of an African-American community

9:28

that nurtured me, and I grew up listening

9:30

to a lot of old stories. I

9:33

was the child who was curious,

9:35

who wanted to hear them. My

9:38

grandmother taught me how to crochet, and

9:40

I would sit with her and crochet and listen

9:42

to her talk. My grandmother was born in 1909.

9:47

I feel that it

9:49

was natural to be a storyteller. I

9:51

had a lot of storytellers in my

9:53

family. We sat on the porch a

9:55

lot, and there were certain family members

9:57

who were known for being the breath and tour.

10:00

and sure few could not

10:02

move they had me gripped

10:05

with their stories they would tell. So

10:08

storytelling I think it's a tradition in a

10:10

lot of communities but actually writing it down

10:12

actually getting published actually sharing it with the

10:14

world is as you say that next step.

10:16

But I often think about those long summer

10:19

days of us sitting out on the porch

10:21

and I think about my grandmother telling

10:24

me stories and my grandfather who

10:26

was from Mississippi and even my

10:29

mother now who still lives in

10:31

Memphis and she's definitely a southerner and

10:33

so I feel very

10:36

fortunate that I have

10:39

had these elders in my life and that

10:41

I'm able to tell the story

10:43

but it was also really important to me

10:46

that anybody in my family and anybody

10:48

out there could read them too and

10:50

so I always aspire

10:53

to speak in the language of

10:55

the South and to not try to

10:57

go over anybody's head and talk in

10:59

circles as they might say. I really

11:02

want to speak directly to not only

11:04

my people in the South but just to

11:06

like the American readers right like I want

11:08

to hear me I want them to understand

11:11

it and I want them to have to run

11:13

to a dictionary I wanted them to just be

11:15

able to be lost in the story. You

11:18

definitely got the storytelling Jean from your

11:20

family did you know early on that

11:23

you wanted to be a storyteller in this

11:25

way in this format as a writer as

11:27

a novelist? No of course not because I

11:29

didn't know any writers yeah I

11:32

mean all writers were dead I was a

11:34

reader and I remember thinking I could do

11:36

that but never did

11:38

that translate into thinking

11:41

of any way to do that or any past

11:43

right and definitely not thinking I could earn money

11:46

at it. Oh right. Who knew right and who

11:48

knew and so I live in DC now and

11:50

I do a lot of writers in schools visits

11:53

and I think young people still have

11:55

never met a living writer. I remember

11:57

one time here in DC I was at

11:59

Anacostia High school and there

12:01

was a young man in the front row who slept throughout

12:04

my whole presentation. We had brought books, I was probably

12:06

got a complimentary copy of the book and

12:08

at the end of the class he woke up, he

12:11

turned the book over, he saw my picture, he looked

12:13

at the picture, he looked at me and

12:15

he said, that's you. Oh gosh,

12:19

Miracose is everybody. He tickled

12:23

me so much. He wanted to

12:25

engage me, he wanted to carry

12:27

my bag to the car. That's

12:30

the whole presentation because it really

12:32

never occurred to him that the writer

12:34

of the book would be there. Yeah,

12:37

you know, and so I love those

12:39

moments because it was

12:41

the same for me, that moment

12:43

of discovery, that it was revelatory

12:45

to actually meet people who

12:47

had written books that I read. How

12:50

did your early writing experiences

12:52

come to be? What did that

12:54

look like? How long did

12:56

you sort of check out the stories

12:58

before something really caught traction and like

13:00

what did your early career look like?

13:03

How did it take shape? Well,

13:05

so in college, I had the

13:08

urge to write, I should say, although

13:10

I didn't know what the path would

13:12

look like. And I had this roommate who

13:14

I recently just sat back in touch with,

13:16

Susie, who was going to be art major.

13:18

And Susie said, you should write a short story and

13:21

publish it. And I didn't know how to do that.

13:23

So at that time, and I'm dating myself a little

13:25

bit right now, they had those

13:27

romance magazines in the drugstore and it

13:30

was like true romance, true confessions and

13:32

stuff like that. And I think they were published by

13:34

Conde Nast for some publishing group like that. And I went

13:36

and bought one. And in the back, it said, if you

13:38

have a short story, send it to this address. And

13:40

I wrote a short story and I sent

13:42

it. It mailed it. A lot of us didn't

13:45

have computers back then. So, you know, you went

13:47

to a computer lab and they

13:49

published it and my name is on there

13:51

and they paid me $130. I

13:55

mean, rolling in it. The

13:58

freshmen in college, can you believe it? No,

14:00

no, you could have told me nothing.

14:02

Yes, for something that I

14:04

did for fun that I never expected and

14:07

so I Then

14:10

thought well, maybe I could try

14:12

this that was the beginning really.

14:15

Yeah, were you studying? Literature.

14:19

Nope wasn't studying literature I was a reaper

14:21

when I grew up in Memphis if you

14:23

were smart you were one of two things

14:25

You were either a doctor or a lawyer.

14:27

Sure. And so I thought I would be

14:29

a lawyer because math and science were not

14:31

my jam So the only

14:33

other path was to be a lawyer or a

14:35

teacher. I didn't think about being a teacher That

14:37

was another path that was open So

14:40

I still thought I was going to law school, but

14:42

when I thought that $130 check I

14:45

just remember being over the moon about that. It

14:48

was a lot of money when I was in

14:50

high school I worked at the mall in this

14:52

little store and I would make that for a

14:54

week's work, you know I made $4.25 an hour

14:56

and that was you know, that was hard work

14:59

working at that store So I

15:01

got that check and I couldn't believe it was

15:03

like to open the whole world and that's really

15:05

you know How it's done and

15:07

now you're in DC and you're

15:10

on staff in American, right? Correct.

15:13

Yeah, my daughter went there her freshman year of

15:15

college and I remember walking on

15:17

that campus for her Visit

15:19

just going what's this beautiful place?

15:22

I've never been there just such a

15:25

stunning Campus such incredible

15:27

staff amazing student body like a

15:29

really vibrant place for the next

15:31

generation And I love being here

15:33

late at night Like I'll work

15:35

late in my office sometimes and

15:38

when I come out the campus

15:40

is so alive the students are

15:42

all my bizarre They're playing frisbee. There's

15:44

music playing like a food truck going. I

15:46

love campuses in general It's probably why I'm

15:49

still on campus so that I never have

15:51

to leave college if there was a job

15:53

description written for women I think holding all

15:55

the things would be at the top of

15:57

the list because we carry the literal and

15:59

proverbial real bag that keeps everything

16:01

safe and accessible. You'll have found

16:04

the perfect place to share that

16:06

responsibility. Keep your family

16:08

prepared and protected by managing your

16:11

will or trust online. With

16:13

Trust in Will, you can create and manage

16:16

a custom estate plan starting at just $199.

16:20

Go to trustinwill.com/for the love for

16:22

10% off plus

16:25

free document shipping. Take

16:27

time and stress by having your

16:29

documents in one place with bank

16:31

level encryption. Secure your

16:33

assets and protect your loved ones

16:36

with Trust in Will. Get 10%

16:38

off plus free shipping of your

16:40

estate plan documents by visiting trustinwill.com/for

16:43

the love. That's 10% off

16:45

and free shipping at

16:47

trustinwill.com/for the love.

16:50

I have a fact for you. Approximately one

16:53

in two women will experience hair thinning.

16:55

When it comes to thinning hair, there

16:57

are many root causes. And NutriFall addresses

16:59

them through a whole body approach.

17:02

NutriFall is the number one dermatologist

17:04

recommended hair growth supplement with over

17:06

a million people seeing thicker, stronger,

17:08

faster growing hair with less shedding.

17:11

Physician formulated with drug-free ingredients,

17:13

NutriFall supplements support healthy hair growth

17:15

by targeting what causes it like

17:17

stress, hormones, or nutrition, no prescription

17:20

required. So take the first step

17:22

to visibly thicker, healthier hair. For

17:24

a limited time, NutriFall is offering

17:27

our listeners $10 off your

17:29

first month subscription and free shipping when

17:32

you get a nutrifall.com and enter

17:34

the promo code HATMAKER.

17:36

Find out why over

17:38

4,500 healthcare professionals and

17:40

hairstylists recommend NutriFall for

17:42

healthier hair. So nutrifall.com

17:44

spelled n-u-t-r-a-f-o-l.com, promo

17:47

code HATMAKER. So nutrifall.com, promo

17:50

code HATMAKER. I

17:53

wanna talk about this book. I wanna

17:55

start with Sybil because obviously she's the

17:58

heartbeat of the story. And.

18:01

I. Get the chance to. Talk

18:03

to a lot of novelists such as on

18:05

my favorite seeing list that I get to

18:07

do in my work. But. It's

18:09

always fascinating because every once creative process

18:12

is. All. Over the place. There is

18:14

not one way to write a novel.

18:16

There's not one way to sort of

18:18

process, information or outset a book and

18:20

self. I always am fascinated with everyone's

18:22

creative. Process, but I know that

18:24

a lot of times. Lead

18:27

characters are primary characters

18:29

are influenced by someone

18:31

that the author new

18:33

or an amalgamation. As

18:36

some people that the author

18:38

new and some serious this

18:40

you had any real life.

18:42

Inspiration Er inspirations for

18:45

the character of Civil.

18:48

Civil isn't. There.

18:50

It is is actually all of my

18:52

main characters. Are me or sizes

18:55

me? They're. All.

18:57

Girls. Who are smart? But

19:00

who make bad decisions? You

19:02

know and when I was growing up they

19:04

call the haven't booked sense that not like

19:07

common sense. As. An

19:09

insult me alone some realize. Actually, I have both.

19:12

Yeah, but you know I

19:14

do recognize. Lay the

19:16

smart girl. Who. Doesn't

19:19

always. Make. The right decision?

19:21

right? She makes mistakes. And

19:23

that's all of my Lizzie who

19:26

was in my first book. Now

19:28

you know, civil. And so

19:30

yeah there are. Certain. Aspects

19:32

of me so far they have all

19:34

been young women, For. The all

19:36

sort of like my younger self.

19:38

civil name how ever have borrowed

19:41

from a friend of mine is

19:43

from Bolivar, Tennessee. as a sister

19:45

named civil seen on that when I was

19:47

in the early twenties. And.

19:50

The first time and or so much as a

19:52

sister named Civil and that her mother named her

19:54

after from the phrase civil Rights and she had

19:56

been born. In the fifties. And

19:59

I said it wasn't. The had a character with

20:01

that name base and I said jokingly

20:03

and we can I laughed about it

20:05

and then when I started writing this

20:07

book I realize this is my civil.

20:10

Have never have observed in love with somebody

20:12

that name and this is her. Appearance:

20:14

I can't imagine her than the other main. Now

20:17

that's who she is like there's no

20:19

alternative. For her. So you've nailed it. He

20:21

saved her for just the right story and

20:23

I want to talk about that because. Obviously.

20:27

You are riding a fictional.

20:29

Story about real historical

20:32

events. And so that's a tricky needle.

20:34

The Threads: Historical fiction as always. Tricky

20:36

because. On one hand,

20:39

You're required to honor the

20:41

truth. And the story

20:43

and the facts. But over

20:45

here. It's creation, It's

20:47

invention, It's speculation even. And

20:50

so the coming together. Of it's

20:52

who always cells like a really special skill set for

20:54

me when someone can do it well and you dead.

20:56

And so can you talk a

20:58

little bit about. Your

21:00

research process for this. Book

21:03

and then secondary. I'd

21:05

love to hear any that

21:07

was. Surprising.

21:10

During the research. Process

21:12

specifically in a wealth. Vs.

21:14

Weinberger and if you what mind telling

21:16

everybody just a little bit about that

21:18

case just in case are new to

21:21

this conversation.or tequila. says. A lot

21:23

I threw throw a whole lot at you.

21:25

Good luck. Well. I'll start with

21:27

the case. Ralph. The Weinberger A

21:29

was the case. and now we're talking about

21:31

real life, not in the book Because I

21:33

will say that I had no problem departing

21:35

from the actual historical record at all. but

21:37

in real life. The. Case with

21:39

far in losses in D C

21:42

Federal District Court Far lawyer named

21:44

Joe eleven. He. Was twenty

21:46

nine years old at the time and

21:48

he had been contacted by the social

21:50

worker of the royal family. A.

21:53

Social workers name is Jesse Blinds. And.

21:55

see had grown close to

21:57

the family and when she

22:00

discovered that the girls had

22:02

been sterilized. She was distraught.

22:04

She was angry. She was

22:07

livid. And she

22:09

went to her husband, who was a

22:11

military officer, and he advised her

22:13

to go to his commanding officer to figure out

22:15

what she didn't know what to do. And she

22:17

went to her husband's commanding officer, and he referred

22:19

her to Joe Levin. And she sat

22:21

in his office all day long until

22:23

he came back, and she told him about

22:26

the case, and he decided to take it.

22:29

Very quickly, Joe realized that this was

22:31

not just the Ralph family involved, but not

22:33

only were there multiple patients at the clinic

22:35

who had been sterilized without their consent, but

22:38

there were women all over the

22:40

country who were being coerced

22:42

into sterilization. People started calling

22:44

him from California, from Georgia, from

22:46

Texas. And so he dropped the

22:48

initial lawsuit, and it became a

22:50

class action lawsuit with Ralph

22:52

as the name native. And

22:55

Senator Ted Kennedy heard about it. We all

22:58

know that he spent his whole career fighting

23:00

for health care, and he

23:02

was investigating ethics around

23:04

health care because a lot of the women who had

23:06

been victimized were women on public

23:09

assistance. And so

23:11

he held this special committee hearing.

23:13

In Washington, DC, he invited the

23:15

Ralph's parents. In real

23:18

life, both of the parents were there in the

23:20

house, and they went to DC, and

23:22

they testified alongside Joe Levin. It

23:25

was a huge court case, and that was

23:27

the thing. The book did start with me

23:29

learning more about this court case. And the

23:32

reason I decided to write a book, because I

23:34

thought, how do I not know more about this?

23:36

Because it was all over the news. I mean,

23:38

in every major newspaper, it was in the New

23:40

York Times, The Washington Post, Chicago

23:42

Tribune. They were on the nightly news,

23:45

the NBC nightly news. There was a

23:47

whole TV segment devoted to this case.

23:49

It was in Time magazine. It was

23:51

in Jed. It was in Ebony. And

23:54

it happened right on the heels

23:56

of Roe v. Wade. So

23:58

it was a monumental year. But

24:01

of course, it also was the same

24:03

year that Nixon, President Nixon, got into a

24:05

little bit of trouble. So there were a lot of things

24:07

happening in 1973. But

24:10

what was clear to me was that

24:13

this was a story that needed to be told.

24:15

I discovered that the Ralph sisters

24:17

are still alive. And I

24:19

thought to myself, they're just

24:21

living their lives. They were still living in

24:24

public housing. And nobody knew.

24:26

And to me, they were American heroines.

24:28

They are American heroines who needed

24:30

to be recognized. Because

24:32

the case changed everything.

24:35

It was a monumentally important

24:37

case in terms of forcing

24:39

doctors to be more careful about

24:42

sterilization consent. And

24:44

to this day, we have for women who are on

24:46

public assistance, there's a 30 day wait period

24:48

before they can be sterilized.

24:51

And some I've spoken with some physicians

24:53

who are OBGYN who regularly use that

24:55

consent form who did not know about

24:58

the Ralph case. In fact, I would go so

25:00

far as to say the majority

25:02

of OBGYNs in our country don't know about

25:04

this case. Because I've been speaking

25:06

to med schools. And some of them thought

25:08

it was unfair that women on public

25:11

assistance had to wait 30 days and women

25:13

with private health insurance don't. And

25:15

I said, well, part of the reason they have to wait

25:17

is because doctors abuse them. So

25:20

this was a monumentally important

25:22

case. And I thought everybody needed to know

25:24

about it. But I

25:27

also am a fiction writer. And I thought,

25:29

one, I can't have my case going off to DC.

25:32

I need everything in Montgomery. So

25:34

I reached out to Joe Levin, who's also

25:36

still alive, whose memory is just as sharp

25:38

as ever. I think he

25:40

might be 80 years old now. And

25:43

he still remembers everything. And he's retired

25:45

now. He's a beautiful person. He

25:47

told me that the case happens in DC. And I

25:49

said, well, is it possible that the case could have

25:51

happened in Montgomery? And he said, well, it's possible, but

25:54

it didn't. It happened in DC. I'm like, yeah, but

25:56

is it possible that you could have argued the case

25:58

at Montgomery? He said, yeah, but it didn't. I'm

26:00

like, what's it possible? Finally

26:04

said yes, it was possible because there's

26:06

a federal court, our district, the middle

26:09

district of Alabama federal court is in

26:11

Montgomery. So that was all

26:13

I needed to know. Right. So I changed

26:15

things. Another thing I did was I made

26:17

the girl slightly younger because I

26:19

wanted to really emphasize the exploitative nature of what

26:21

happened to them because the Ross sisters were 12

26:23

and 14. And

26:25

I know how some people think of that girl

26:27

as being mature beyond that age. There's still girls,

26:29

you know, I wanted to make them

26:32

slightly younger, 11 and 13, just so

26:34

people really knew they were children. Yeah. And

26:36

then I also thought, okay, what

26:39

would really be painful for the family is if the

26:41

mother had passed away and the girls

26:43

were even more open and

26:45

vulnerable to being exploited, but in real life, she

26:48

was alive. She wasn't alive. Yeah. When

26:50

I was reading, take my hand, I remember.

26:55

Flipping to the back, like, is

26:57

this real? Stunned that I'd never

26:59

heard of it. It's so

27:01

big. It's so important. And

27:03

whereas like Robie Wade has

27:05

like national conversation around it,

27:07

I'd never heard of it until I read your

27:10

book. I couldn't believe it. I interneted everything

27:12

I can find about

27:14

the original story. And it's

27:16

like, we've lost it and you have

27:18

brought it to us. Yeah.

27:20

It just, it just feels shocking. I mean,

27:23

it doesn't. It's not shocking. It's in keeping

27:25

with American history, which continuously gets

27:27

either erased or whitewashed, of

27:29

course. So it isn't shocking.

27:32

Well, I think the word is

27:34

outrageous, right? Like it's outrageous that

27:37

this was swept under the rug and

27:39

it brings to light so

27:41

many issues, not only around

27:43

gender and race, but also

27:46

around class because the

27:48

Ralph family was poor, you know,

27:50

and then also around disabilities because

27:52

the younger sister in real life

27:54

was disabled and is disabled. And

27:56

it's very thing that we need

27:59

to be talking. about because the

28:01

Ralph sisters embody all of

28:03

the vulnerabilities that are

28:05

exploited when we make decisions for women, right?

28:08

That's good. And so they really just, they

28:10

embody all of that. So to me, it

28:12

was like the perfect thing to

28:14

be talking about. Although when I started

28:16

writing the book in 2016, I had

28:18

no idea that Roby Wabe would be

28:21

overturned two months after the book came

28:23

out. Like I wasn't speaking to that

28:25

specifically, as much as I was speaking

28:27

to thinking about what it could look

28:29

like when you've got the state heavily

28:31

involved in making these decisions. Like who

28:33

is worthy and who is not worthy

28:36

to be a mother? The deeper questions

28:38

of the novel, they're haunting. And

28:40

it's, it is disorienting

28:42

to be sitting here in modern

28:45

America and realize we are going backward. We

28:48

are going backward on this right now and women

28:51

are still vulnerable. And

28:54

we still are having our own

28:56

agency taken from us. It's

28:59

a book based in fact from the seventies

29:01

and it's still current. And that's a terrible,

29:03

terrible commentary. I want to

29:06

talk about the Fed

29:08

really funded family planning

29:10

clinic where civil works NPR

29:12

said this book

29:14

is a haunting tale of how

29:16

the actions of government agencies aren't

29:18

innocent of racism, injustice, or

29:20

abuse, emotional and physical of

29:23

black people in America. And

29:26

the clinic site was so obviously important to

29:28

the story and wasn't

29:30

one of its kind. You mentioned earlier,

29:32

this wasn't a singular case as it

29:35

came to light. This was widespread across

29:37

the landscape of America. And so I'd

29:39

like to hear you talk a little bit about what

29:42

you learned, what you invented

29:44

about the clinic, like

29:46

the one that civil worked at

29:49

and sort of the

29:51

location of the story in that

29:53

specific type of place. Well,

29:55

you know, the clinic actually existed and

29:57

the agency. in

30:00

town that funded the clinic

30:03

was the same agency that

30:05

provided food stamps. And

30:07

so when I had these conversations

30:09

with Joe, Joe Levin, he said

30:12

to me, you have to remember

30:14

how powerful these

30:17

government representatives were in the lives of

30:19

these people, right? Not only did they

30:22

control your food, if you lived in

30:24

subsidized housing, they could affect your housing.

30:27

So you're talking about food and

30:29

shelter being sort of

30:31

at the mercy of these government representatives.

30:33

So when they came in and they

30:36

said, we're taking your daughters for birth

30:38

control, you didn't question

30:41

them, right? Because you were

30:43

afraid of them. And

30:45

so that was something that Joe taught

30:47

me. And then I really tried

30:50

to capture, particularly for Sybil, who finds

30:52

herself in that position of power. And

30:54

one of the things I wanted for

30:57

us to understand as contemporary readers

30:59

is that many of us are

31:01

in those positions of power. We

31:03

need to be very mindful of

31:05

that. And we don't need

31:07

to forget the power and

31:09

equity and the power and balance when we

31:11

are helping people, right? And

31:14

so it really caused me to

31:16

think more carefully about my own

31:19

actions. The clinic itself had eight

31:21

nurses who, my understanding from a

31:23

newspaper article that I read, there

31:25

were eight nurses who worked there.

31:28

There was a white woman who led

31:31

the clinic. She was the

31:33

original named defendant. She

31:35

in the clinic and the original case before it

31:37

became a class action lawsuit. And

31:39

she said to the paper in defense of herself that

31:42

it must have been okay to sterilize the

31:44

girls because all eight nurses who worked at

31:46

the clinic were black. And

31:48

I thought, what? That

31:51

was how really I started to think

31:53

about Sybil because I thought, okay, so

31:56

these women who worked at the clinic, which

31:59

was in April, predominantly black neighborhood,

32:01

hit somehow become

32:04

complicit in this. And

32:06

I wanted to explore that. And I

32:08

thought, this is a good moment

32:10

for us to be thinking about what it

32:12

means to be a person with resources, no

32:15

matter what your race, and to be

32:18

a person who's in these positions of power. I

32:20

spoke with one woman who talked about she was

32:23

a patient at that clinic, and she

32:25

described the interior, I mean, it had been a

32:27

house of like bungalow style house, it had been

32:29

converted into a clinic. And

32:31

she had gone to that clinic, she was young and

32:33

she was pregnant. And they told

32:35

her that even though abortion had been

32:37

legalized by Roe v. Wade, you still

32:39

couldn't get access in the state of

32:41

Alabama. And if she wanted

32:43

to terminate her pregnancy, she was going to have

32:46

to go out of state. Wow. So

32:48

there were a lot of women in the community went

32:50

there. And the woman who shared the story with me

32:52

was a white woman. So I assume they had lots

32:54

of different women coming in that door. I

32:57

thought to myself when she told me that

32:59

story, that they were doing both good and

33:01

bad work. You know, like,

33:03

on one hand, they were providing birth control,

33:05

they were providing counseling, they were doing health

33:07

exams, they were doing breast exams,

33:09

things that women need. But on the other

33:12

hand, if someone, you know, were to come in and

33:14

they were disabled, or they already had five children or

33:16

something, they were coercing them to

33:19

get to the ligation. I

33:22

really appreciate the way

33:24

that you left all that

33:26

complexity in the story, because

33:29

it particularly in hindsight, it

33:31

feels so clear. It just feels

33:33

like such an obvious case

33:36

of right and wrong and good and bad.

33:39

But you didn't write it like that

33:41

nor the characters, you made them complicated.

33:44

And I found myself feeling

33:47

more than one way about several

33:49

of them. Mrs. Seager and Sybil

33:52

herself, frankly, and the

33:55

girl's dad. You

33:57

gave us a lot of meat. on

34:00

the bones that we kind of had to chew

34:02

on. And so, and

34:04

imagining that that is a

34:06

value to you as a novelist,

34:08

which is in some

34:11

ways not telling your reader exactly what

34:14

to think and feel with such obvious

34:17

polarized characters, but rather giving

34:19

us some gray. Was

34:21

that a choice? Was

34:24

that challenging to leave some some nuance

34:26

in there that maybe wasn't favorable to

34:28

some of our characters that we're supposed

34:30

to love and did we did love

34:32

them? I have a friend Catherine Ma who's a writer

34:35

and a long time ago I had submitted the story

34:37

for workshop and she was in my workshop with me

34:39

and she said, so Lynn you

34:42

have to bruise your characters.

34:45

Oh gosh. All of my

34:48

characters were so perfect on the page.

34:50

I never forgot that Catherine told me

34:53

that and I then

34:56

began to think about

34:59

how each of us is flawed.

35:01

And so, for example, in the

35:03

book, Sybil's father who tells

35:05

her when you get to that house where those

35:08

country people live don't get out of your car. Okay.

35:10

And she says, well daddy, how

35:12

am I supposed to give

35:15

them their medicine? How am I supposed to treat them if

35:17

I don't get out of the car? And

35:19

she says, well you know. And what was the kind of thing

35:21

my daddy might have told me? My daddy might have said like

35:23

don't get out the car. Or like

35:25

I might want to go somewhere and my daddy would

35:27

say I'll pick you up. And I would say, daddy

35:29

I'm 19 years old. I'd be

35:31

home from college and he'd say it

35:33

doesn't matter. I'm gonna pick you up. Where do

35:35

you want me to pick you up? He was

35:37

always overprotective, but sometimes it was a

35:40

little bit of a elitism that would come out at

35:42

my dad and I wanted that to be the

35:44

case with Sybil's dad. And then, for

35:47

example, with Mrs. Seeger. When

35:49

I read about her in the papers,

35:51

I knew that she had done a

35:53

horrific thing and she was very, in

35:56

some ways, unapologetic about it. And I

35:58

realized that she... believe

36:00

she was helping, like in real life. I

36:02

forget what her real name was. I think

36:04

her real name was Dixon. That

36:07

woman believed that she was helping.

36:09

She believed that she was keeping babies from

36:11

being born into poverty. And I tried to

36:13

flesh out those arguments in the book between

36:15

Sybil and Alicia. There is an issue with

36:17

teenage pregnancy. There is an issue with poverty.

36:20

There is an issue with children who

36:22

are, you know, going hungry, that kind of thing. And I

36:25

wanted to kind of just reveal that how

36:27

they got caught up into this. And

36:30

then I came upon the

36:32

obituary of, and this is what I think

36:34

as historical fiction writers, we got to just

36:36

come through the archive, because you just never

36:38

know what, it might not be something that

36:40

you put in the book, but it might

36:42

be something that really just provides you with

36:44

some kind of inspiration. So I found the

36:46

obituary for the real head nurse. And

36:49

it said she had five children, I mean,

36:51

with a big obituary in the paper, and

36:54

she was beloved. She had a family. She

36:56

had five children, she had grandchildren, she was

36:58

a member of her church. You know, she

37:00

was a community person. And I said, how

37:03

do I kind of highlight that? And

37:06

I brought her daughter, I created

37:08

that scene where Sybil meets her

37:10

daughter, and Sybil likes her daughter.

37:12

And her daughter is like, she

37:14

knows what happened. She's seen some of the things

37:16

that some niece has done up on the internet.

37:19

And she's horrified by it. And she

37:21

wants to, the woman she knew was

37:24

different than that. And she's got some kind of

37:26

assurance like, was my mom a bad person? Was

37:28

she? And Sybil can't answer

37:31

that question simply, because the answer

37:33

isn't simple. You know?

37:36

And so that's kind of like, seeing

37:38

that obituary in the paper made

37:40

me think, well, the narrative

37:42

itself would not allow me to

37:44

get into Mrs. Seeger, but maybe

37:47

I could go through the next generation who

37:49

knew her as a different person.

37:51

Looks so good. And who are trying to

37:54

make sense of it. And I think that

37:56

sort of American, you know, the American story

37:58

really, that we... trying to make. And

38:01

actually, my new book is about like, how

38:03

the things that our forefathers and foremothers

38:05

did, we have to grapple with, right?

38:08

Like, as descendants, we have to kind

38:10

of pick up the pieces. And

38:13

so I wanted to figure out a

38:15

way to show that Missy her

38:17

possibly and probably and did have

38:20

a family who

38:23

loved her. That's the kind

38:25

of stuff I'm talking about. That's

38:27

what sat with me for days,

38:30

just thinking I could

38:32

help but transport that into

38:34

a modern context and

38:37

think about how many

38:39

people this living day

38:41

are at the helm

38:44

of harmful and

38:46

racist or misogynistic policies

38:49

or practices out in the wild.

38:52

And then who go home and

38:54

like make mashed potatoes and their

38:56

kids read to their

38:58

kids at bedtime and otherwise are

39:01

beloved in their life. I think

39:03

I've had a lot whenever I see

39:05

someone in the news who's done something terrible,

39:07

I immediately look up their family and I

39:09

just look at them. And I wonder about

39:11

them and I pray for them

39:16

even because I just know that people have

39:18

many different sides. Wow.

39:20

That comes through and take

39:22

my hand. You kind of force us

39:25

to reckon with some of

39:27

those incongruencies. Because my preference

39:29

just as a person that lives in the

39:31

world, I like tidy stories like it's

39:33

all good or it's all bad.

39:35

And everybody should be in agreement

39:38

on this. And something certainly are.

39:40

I mean, we have a moral imperative here

39:42

that is not up for debate at all.

39:44

But you create nuance around it,

39:47

which is both wonderful

39:49

and frustrating that that is how that's how

39:52

it is. And so it made me,

39:54

of course, also wonder and

39:56

think about what's

39:58

our generation. issue

40:01

here. Where are we on

40:03

current policies

40:05

and practices that are

40:07

harming, harming our neighbors,

40:10

deeply harming them on our

40:12

watch? Like to your earlier point,

40:15

what's my power? Do

40:17

I have any? How do I use it?

40:19

What will I be proud of 40 years from

40:21

now? You know? And so these

40:24

are the bigger questions you gave us in this

40:26

story. And I can

40:28

tell you that this is my, of course, my

40:30

book club. It's our February book. I

40:32

am so looking forward to the

40:34

conversations that your book spurs on

40:36

in our community, as we sort

40:39

of grapple with the characters, the

40:41

history. It's going to be on

40:43

fire this month. Thanks to you. Y'all, I

40:46

am excited about this. I'm planning

40:48

a Nashville trip this spring. You know I

40:50

love that town. Planning and

40:52

researching trips is my jam. 90s

40:55

country music is my other jam.

40:57

And I found an app that

40:59

offers guided tours of Ryman auditorium

41:01

and country music hall of fame.

41:03

Like be still my achy breaky

41:05

heart. As soon as I

41:07

saw this option on Viator, I

41:10

knew this was something Tyler and I had to do. Viator

41:12

has over 300,000 bookable travel experiences in

41:17

over 190 countries, from simple

41:19

tours to extreme adventures and all the

41:21

niche stuff in between. When

41:23

you book a travel experience Viator,

41:25

there's always flexibility and support with

41:28

free cancellation, payment options, and 24

41:30

seven service. Download the Viator app

41:32

now and use code Viator 10

41:34

for 10% off your first booking

41:37

in the app. One app

41:39

over 300,000 travel

41:41

experiences you'll remember. Do more with Viator.

41:44

Springtime is crunch time at school. And

41:46

if you aren't quite sure you're

41:48

giving your kids the homework help they really

41:50

need or if your

41:52

kiddos not being challenged enough in class, I have a

41:54

solution. IXL Learning is an

41:57

online learning program for kids that covers math

41:59

and arts, science, and social

42:01

studies. IXL is used in

42:03

95 of the top 100 school districts

42:07

in the US. It's designed

42:09

to help them really understand and master

42:11

topics in a fun way with positive

42:14

feedback. IXL is designed to

42:16

give the right help to each kid

42:18

no matter their age or personality. Make

42:21

an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL

42:23

now. And For the Love listeners can

42:25

get an exclusive 20% off

42:27

IXL membership when they sign

42:29

up today at ixl.com/hat maker.

42:32

So visit ixl.com/hat maker to

42:34

get the most effective learning

42:36

program out there at the

42:39

best price. The Texas weather can infamously

42:41

change on a dime. So if I'm

42:43

running from Pilates to the grocery store

42:46

and there's the slightest chance of rain,

42:49

I want a shoe that can keep my

42:51

feet dry and be comfortable and I found

42:53

them. The perfect fit. I

42:55

ordered these Vessi Chelsea boots and

42:57

they are chef's kiss. It's a

42:59

waterproof booty that I can truly

43:02

wear all day. They are lightweight,

43:04

breathable, this incredible design which is

43:06

the epitome of comfort meeting style.

43:08

So you guys check out vessi.com. That's V as

43:10

in vacation and you better believe I'll be packing

43:13

these for my next trip. They are perfect for

43:16

travel adventures. So Vessi is offering For

43:18

the Love listeners a 15% discount

43:21

on your first order. So head over

43:23

to vessi.com V-E-S-S-I vessi.com/hat

43:25

maker to explore their

43:27

men's and women's shoes.

43:29

Embrace every moment come

43:31

rain or shine with

43:33

Vessi. Okay

43:36

I have just a couple of

43:39

questions left. Now you led with

43:41

it. So I'd love to hear

43:43

what you're working on and where

43:45

your brains at right now. What kind of world

43:47

are you immersed in? Well it's coming

43:49

out. It's expected to come out in April

43:51

of 2025 so we still have a little

43:54

bit of time. It's set

43:57

in North Carolina. It's another historic

44:00

dual timeline, but it has a little

44:02

bit more of a contemporary timeline. And

44:05

it's really about families

44:08

and land and what

44:10

land means to

44:12

a family. In some ways it's sort of

44:14

the most southern book

44:17

I've ever written because I

44:19

feel like in southern literature and in southern

44:21

culture land is so important. It's

44:23

about like the younger generation sort of getting

44:25

away from that and I remember when my

44:27

dad first came to visit me here in

44:29

DC we live in a row house and

44:32

he was like where's the land, where's the yard? And

44:34

I'm like we don't have a yard. And he said

44:36

you don't have a yard? He

44:38

did not understand why people pay all

44:41

this money for these row houses and they

44:43

don't even have a yard. Because

44:45

for black families land was

44:48

everything. It was upper ethnicity,

44:50

it was legacy, it was

44:53

culture, it was where you

44:55

could possibly grow your food, it was a

44:58

refuge from the rest of the world and

45:00

so I really wanted to kind of explore

45:02

that in the book like what does

45:04

land mean now to this generation? What

45:07

is the historical decade? The

45:10

historical decade is the 1880s. Oh

45:13

way back, yeah yeah. Oh

45:15

that's great. So it's

45:17

written, it's done. It's in editing

45:19

right now. Yeah it's written, but it's been editing.

45:22

Does it have a title? Yes but I'm not

45:24

telling it. But we can't say it. Yeah we

45:26

just came up with the title literally like two

45:28

days ago so I'm not even sure that I

45:30

can say it. They didn't tell me. But the

45:32

team just to prove the title. So it is

45:34

the title but I didn't ask whether or not

45:37

I could disclose yet. So I'll just keep it

45:39

in the moment until they tell me you can tell me.

45:41

This is very exciting. I can't wait to read

45:44

it. It's such a labor to bring a

45:46

book into the world and so when you

45:48

finally get to present your baby, your born

45:50

baby to the world, you're like love her.

45:53

She took a lot of work. It's a lot of

45:55

work. It's a lot of work. When

45:58

did you start that book? What's your like process?

46:00

Well, usually it takes me five years

46:02

between books. I've been telling myself that I'm going

46:04

to stop saying this, that I'm a slow writer.

46:06

Like that's what I've been saying to myself for

46:09

the last 20 years that I'm a slow writer.

46:11

And I'm going to change that narrative. I like

46:13

this. Really? What I am is a mom with

46:15

responsibilities. That's what I say less.

46:17

So, but I started

46:20

it probably in spring

46:22

of 22. Okay. So

46:24

this is actually quite fast for

46:27

me. Yeah. Yeah. I think

46:29

that's fast. So fast, but I can't

46:31

even, it's like, I don't

46:33

even know how it happened, but somehow.

46:35

Yeah. Oh, well, I can't wait.

46:38

I will pre-order that so fast. Take my

46:40

money. Thank you. Last question. We

46:42

always love it because writers are readers,

46:44

of course. And so we've

46:46

gotten some of our best recommendations

46:49

on books from our

46:51

authors and book clubs, some of them that

46:53

have turned into future book club books. So we

46:55

would just like to hear a couple of books

46:57

that you are loving right now that you've either

47:00

recently read, or if you want to pick

47:02

a classic favorite, that's fine

47:04

too. Okay. Well,

47:07

one book, I can't pronounce the author's last

47:09

name, so I don't want to mess

47:11

it up, but it's a novel called Brotherless

47:13

Night. And it's set in

47:15

Sri Lanka and it's about the Tamil Tigers

47:17

and the Tamil liberation

47:19

front and the civil war there.

47:21

I also read Symphony

47:24

of Secrets by Brendan Slocum. He's

47:26

a classical musician who writes these

47:29

mysteries, these dual timeline historical mysteries.

47:31

His first book was called Island

47:33

Conspiracy, and this

47:35

is called Symphony of Secrets. I

47:38

like that title. Yeah, it's really

47:40

good. I also read a book by

47:43

a local DC author, new to me.

47:45

Her name is Angie Kim, and

47:47

a book is called

47:50

Happiness Falls. Oh, yes,

47:52

which another great title. Very,

47:55

very good book. What's

47:57

that genre? say

48:00

it's a mystery. It's about a father

48:02

who goes missing. He's out on a

48:05

hike with his son who was nonverbal

48:07

and has a rare form

48:09

of autism. And the very first chapter,

48:11

the son returns without the father. And

48:15

they have any way of interrogating the

48:17

son on the hike. And that's the

48:19

first chapter I was like, whoa, she

48:21

did not mess around on here. Yeah,

48:23

right up in that book. That's

48:26

compelling. It was really, it's really good.

48:28

Yeah, great. I wrote them down. Thank

48:30

you for those awesome suggestions. I love

48:32

a good mystery. Yeah, love a good

48:34

mystery. I just love a page turner

48:36

like I want to fall into a

48:38

book and not come back for a

48:40

little while. Yeah, yeah. Oh, gosh, me

48:42

too. That is literally what take

48:44

my hand was for me. I fell so

48:46

hard into your book. And

48:48

just I'm not I

48:51

lived I have this memory of sitting on

48:53

the porch on my little rental house in

48:55

New Jersey with my coffee. That's how I

48:57

started every day until I finished

49:00

your book, like book, coffee, porch,

49:02

beautiful. And I mean, I

49:04

just sat there with tears like, pull my

49:06

face out of my face. And yeah, I

49:08

mean, that's what a good book does. It

49:11

just takes you right into it. I mean, well, sometimes it

49:13

depends on the mood you're in, right?

49:15

Like, yeah, sometimes I want that emotional

49:18

read other poems I want to laugh.

49:20

Yeah, sometimes I want a

49:22

good old fashioned romance, you know, it just

49:25

depends on I'm a broad reader. But I

49:27

will say like the books that I remember

49:29

are books like that. They make it

49:31

pull me in emotion. Those are very, so much I

49:33

can't remember everything I read. You have about a book

49:36

you already read and you're like, you get home and

49:38

you realize you already read that book so many times.

49:40

And I'll be like five pages and going,

49:42

this is feeling familiar. So

49:45

many times. Or the also the

49:47

opposite. When I'm on an interview, and somebody

49:49

asks me, what are you reading lately that

49:51

you love? And even though I have just

49:53

read 12 books, I cannot think of a

49:55

book I've ever read in my lifetime. And

49:58

not one not a single title. in

50:00

my phone and say, wait a minute, look in

50:02

my phone what I read. Totally. I did

50:05

the exact same thing. I keep a running list

50:07

because I just can't remember anything. But anyway, I

50:10

am so delighted to have met you. Thank you

50:12

so much for writing such a beautiful story for

50:14

us. And I will tell you

50:16

that we will be lined up to get

50:18

your next book. Thank you. Lined up out

50:20

the door. You are such

50:22

a marvelous writer, such a good storyteller.

50:24

That's fantastic. And you are so warm.

50:27

I can see everybody loves you. Thank

50:29

you so much. That's so

50:31

sweet. Have the best day. You

50:33

too. Bye. Special

50:58

thanks to the team at Odyssey,

51:00

Laura Curran, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey,

51:03

Kate Hutchinson, Eric Donnelly, Erin Constantino,

51:05

Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff. Listen

51:08

and follow For The Love and Odyssey podcast

51:10

on the Odyssey app or wherever you get

51:12

your podcasts. This

51:25

is a production of 4 Eyes Media.