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shopify.com/forthelove. Everybody

2:00

it's and Hatmaker here says to

2:02

the for the live podcast welcome

2:04

to the Shell Oh man said

2:06

Days interview. I

2:09

just finished it. I just told her

2:11

that. Was amazing from beginning

2:13

to end like right when I saw

2:15

it. Oh my gosh, she has given

2:18

so much goodness in this interview. She

2:20

pulls a story out at the very

2:22

end and I was like what? Anyway,

2:25

let me back up. Were

2:27

in a series called for The Love

2:29

of Embracing Chains. And

2:31

so we're going a deep dive here into both

2:33

the joy. And. The grease have

2:36

changed and matters change sometimes

2:38

that we choose. And

2:41

sometimes it's changed that chooses us.

2:43

But either way, Here

2:46

we are right like the one

2:48

minute were high kicking was so

2:51

we sometimes like as the scope

2:53

of change washes over us when

2:55

we're choosing it and then. Even.

2:58

Inside that paradigm wiping our eyes like

3:00

oh this brought an unexpected greece that

3:03

I wasn't really ready for and were

3:05

also during the series going to be

3:07

asking the gurus what are the mixture

3:10

Next of change? How do we

3:12

set ourselves up for the best experience

3:14

inside of it. Because for one

3:16

way or another, however, it comes to us.

3:19

Change is sure we're all going

3:21

to experience it. I mean it

3:23

to. Be a health diagnosis, it

3:25

can be somebody that leaves are

3:28

life. Whatever it is, we want

3:30

to know that we can handle

3:32

it When it comes. And

3:35

began creating sort of. This

3:37

saucer toward change. That means

3:39

we are both more able

3:42

to choose it. When.

3:44

It. Should be chosen

3:46

and also more able to handle it

3:49

when it is his ass right and

3:51

so. I mean, lord

3:53

knows, I. Have had changes in

3:55

my life in the last four years. More

3:57

changes than I would have ever signed up

3:59

for. And. More than I would have

4:01

known I can handle. And.

4:03

Of you would tell me on the front edge,

4:06

these are all the things that you were going

4:08

to experience. Discover. Know.

4:12

And have to create. I just don't know.

4:14

It would have insurance information for

4:16

me but looking back when on

4:19

it now I can see this

4:21

posture ward. Resiliency,

4:24

And risk and hope and recreation

4:27

that makes it all possible. So

4:29

guys, let's get to it because

4:31

today we're going to talk to

4:33

such a talent. Seats house change.

4:37

I mean in every way. Like

4:39

I told her, it was a

4:41

yard sell, everything went for sale

4:43

every category and. She.

4:46

Moved into the life set. Seen.

4:49

Do. It. Was time to step

4:51

in to see knew that chains for

4:53

her was mandatory. For her.

4:56

Sanity for her happiness for her joy and

4:58

she made every choice along the way to

5:00

get there. And. She

5:03

writes about the whole thing. That

5:05

joy in the mess that comes with

5:08

pursuing a fresh start in the middle

5:10

of life. Oh man man oh man

5:12

oh man. You guys! Today

5:14

we have Joy Sullivan. To.

5:19

Poet. To. The community

5:21

builder to the author. And.

5:23

So he has a masters. In poetry this

5:26

is no jump from Miami University.

5:28

She served as the poet in

5:31

residence for the Wexler Center for

5:33

the Arts. see leaves International riding

5:35

Retreats. And she's guest lecture

5:38

to in classrooms. From Stanford

5:40

to Florida International. See

5:42

his budget. So.

5:44

It's also the founder of Sustenance,

5:47

which is a community designed to

5:49

help. riders both revitalize and nourish

5:51

their craft by the way listeners

5:53

are you want inspirational decree the

5:55

flights to a right to sub

5:57

stat newsletter called necessary salt And

6:01

her new book is called Instructions

6:03

for Traveling West. It is

6:05

brilliant. And I'm gonna tell her, and you'll

6:07

hear in a minute, how I stumbled upon

6:09

it, bootleg, essentially,

6:12

before it even came out. It

6:14

releases on April 9th. I

6:16

can't say enough good things about it. This

6:18

was last year that I discovered Joy and

6:20

I've since followed every single word she writes.

6:23

And her work has meant so much to

6:25

me. This is the kind of

6:27

poetry I love most. As you know, I have a

6:30

developing and meandering relationship with poetry that

6:32

I've been nurturing for the last four

6:34

or five years. And

6:36

this is my favorite iteration of it.

6:38

And so this whole conversation, you guys,

6:40

I don't think you're ready. I don't

6:42

know that you know what you're about

6:44

to get out of this conversation. Let

6:46

me just say it like this. For

6:49

anybody who is experiencing

6:52

change, who wants to experience

6:54

change, who has any fear

6:57

or experience around leaving and leaping,

7:02

this is your conversation. Like, I'm

7:05

so excited for you to listen to it. And

7:07

by the way, if you would like to watch

7:10

this conversation, we always video record every episode on

7:12

the show. So you can go to my YouTube

7:14

channel and you can watch this conversation

7:16

if you'd like to and

7:18

see the beautiful Joy with her

7:20

clear blue eyes. Otherwise,

7:24

I'm so delighted to be in your

7:27

little air pods. Please enjoy

7:30

this fascinating and deep and

7:32

encouraging discussion with the absolutely

7:34

wonderful Joy Sullivan. Joy,

7:44

I am so delighted to meet

7:46

you, like face to face, to have

7:49

you on the show. I

7:51

have been like this girl, peeking

7:54

like in the windows of your work

7:56

for the last year, going, How

7:58

on Earth did I miss Joy Sullivan? The Way I'm so

8:01

happy to be in your orbit! Thank

8:03

you for coming onto They. Say.

8:05

Good! It's such a pleasure to be here.

8:07

Thank you! It's and. Let

8:09

me tell you. How I found you. Well

8:12

I should have like dug into my

8:14

own story about because I can't remember

8:16

who posted with some other somebody else

8:18

and I'm following that's not you. Posted.

8:22

One of your poems from your upcoming

8:24

but literally not even published at. Not.

8:27

Even out on a self yes.

8:29

And it was the one about

8:31

lead. And I

8:33

mean an emotional states And I'm also in

8:35

a riding space. So I'm I'm in this

8:37

like creative place. Where I

8:40

am thinking some of those thoughts. That

8:42

you penned in that home and

8:44

I screenshot it's I emailed it

8:47

to myself. I saved it in

8:49

my instagram piles. First.

8:51

Of all that pumped cut right through to me.

8:53

Second of all I was like. Whose.

8:56

Joy. And

8:58

I came right over to you. Fall

9:00

as you immediately and I have already.

9:02

Put that little poem in a little

9:04

segment of the book I'm writing right

9:06

now and I'm like, why don't even

9:09

I can even side it yet because

9:11

her books that out assists But I

9:13

will. I Will says you're a real

9:15

talent. Us Safety silly said it

9:17

said say the hear how you found

9:19

needs how they got connected, snacks, home

9:21

and play. Been this late in L

9:23

to meet some other amazing women sell

9:25

and so happy to get connected! For

9:29

my community. Who may be

9:31

need seeds day first? Can you come up

9:33

to like the thirty thousand foot view for

9:35

my community and to separatists who I am

9:38

did my deal this where I'm at. This.

9:40

Is kind of. Why? I'm here and

9:42

then we'll sort of final down into

9:45

some of the big ideas that I

9:47

want. To talk to you about. Low.

9:49

thank you so much so that said it's

9:51

such an honor to be here again we

9:53

need is to a solo then i am

9:55

the author of instructions are travelling less which

9:57

is a book the poll says all about

9:59

leading and leaping. And

10:02

the catalyst for writing that book was

10:05

really going west myself and

10:07

starting this whole process of self-discovery.

10:09

And through that, beginning to take

10:11

a series of leaps in my

10:13

life. So leaving a relationship, leaving

10:16

my corporate job, becoming an entrepreneur

10:18

and now becoming an author of

10:20

poems, right? Which is like getting

10:22

poems in the world, which is

10:24

sometimes a hard thing to do.

10:27

And so that is what I'm up

10:29

to these days. I'm also a community

10:31

founder. It's just really exciting to get

10:33

to connect with other people who are

10:35

in a similar launch or pre-launch phase

10:38

of their life. I think everybody in

10:40

the pandemic began to ask, is

10:42

this all there is? Am I doing the

10:44

things that are meaningful? And so I think

10:46

that's one reason the book really resonates, because

10:48

we all came to this place of life

10:50

is so freaking short. As if we needed

10:52

that reminder again, we got it. And I

10:54

think that the book was trying to grapple

10:56

with what now what next. This

10:59

series that we're in right now on the

11:02

show is about change. And

11:04

you literally just described in one

11:06

sentence about four

11:09

comprehensive, complete,

11:12

see changes in your life. Let's

11:14

go back if you don't mind and

11:18

pick them all. You talked about your corporate job.

11:20

You talked about leaving a relationship. You're going

11:22

to go from some sort of steady, predictable

11:24

space like guess what? I'm a poet now.

11:26

That's my job. It's going to pay the

11:28

electric bill. And then I

11:31

mean, you just touched on it, but traveling west

11:33

is literal. And

11:35

so can you just go

11:38

back a little bit and parse each of

11:40

those out just a little? Because when we

11:42

are talking about making changes, you went for it.

11:44

I mean, you really did. This

11:46

isn't theoretical. You are not

11:48

sort of hypothesizing. What if we

11:51

did? What if we said maybe

11:53

you did the thing? So it's

11:55

fascinating. And I'd love to hear it from your own

11:58

mouth. Really

12:00

started need Pandemic A We're about a

12:02

year Ed and I was working remotely

12:04

at a corporate job and I decided

12:07

to sell like to that somewhere more

12:09

beautiful that Ohio which is where I

12:11

was living at the time. He has

12:13

no effect so Ohio but I just

12:15

wanted to be image really natural and

12:18

wilde spaces. So I started driving west

12:20

and I spent six weeks hiking in

12:22

Sedona fees in the beautiful desert and

12:24

during that time of really had the

12:27

sense of awakening and a sense of

12:29

brought serene. And it was that

12:31

question like am I doing work. And

12:34

I. Was. So a week to me

12:36

again is this week intensely the

12:38

loneliness is like pricks us allies

12:40

and I really began to grapple.

12:42

I just looked at every aspect

12:44

of my life and said could

12:46

there be more and I wrote

12:48

this home in the desert of

12:50

remember the day I thought it

12:53

I i just like bird through

12:55

all my kurds from the day

12:57

traveling. Alone as a woman, I've

12:59

fallen down like the sand dune I

13:01

had almost run out of gas. Them

13:03

is all the things and so I

13:05

got home. As any different this poem

13:08

called Instructions for Travelling Less which begins

13:10

as as you know for see the

13:12

thrill eyes you're homesick for all the

13:14

lies you know, bloody and then you

13:16

add to that the Road as The

13:19

Rising Loneliness and I wrote it sort

13:21

of and like of like trying to

13:23

hide myself up to keep going because

13:25

it's so scary and isolating that be

13:27

like this. Whole days, one that

13:30

sees another person and so

13:32

in by incredible and beautiful

13:34

silence I feel I hate

13:36

against myself. The gift of

13:38

Shireen. What it was that

13:40

my heart, my mind, my body that

13:42

asking for an when. I really listen.

13:44

it's terrified and I heard a lot

13:46

of things that I hadn't won a

13:48

be here as it was that I

13:51

needed to make a radical shift in

13:53

my life and so. You.

13:55

Know it's is the have to be careful what you

13:57

write downs and because. if relief

13:59

proof forms this kind of

14:01

beautiful, terrifying magic. Within

14:04

40 days of writing that poem,

14:06

then I had sold

14:09

my house and was in a car

14:11

with my two cats traveling to Portland,

14:13

Oregon, where I knew absolutely no one.

14:15

And I had called off

14:17

a relationship with a man who wanted to marry me.

14:20

And I was halfway out of my corporate job at

14:22

that point. And what

14:24

is amazing is it's really

14:27

terrifying. But what

14:29

is so interesting to me is, for the last

14:31

three years that I lived in Ohio, I had

14:33

a nightmare every night. I would wake

14:35

up from it at 4 AM in the morning that

14:37

my body was literally decomposing in a barrel

14:40

of water. And the morning I left, yeah,

14:43

right? And the morning

14:45

I left Ohio, that dream never returned.

14:48

I have good thoughts. So

14:51

I think sometimes like. Our bodies know. Our

14:54

bodies know. I did not learn to

14:56

even listen to the wisdom of my own body

14:58

until I would say literally in the last five years,

15:01

I didn't know that she was a source

15:03

of wisdom. I was

15:05

always taught to distrust whatever

15:07

my instincts were or that

15:10

quiet thing, just like hammering. I'm

15:12

like, no, you don't make sense.

15:16

That's not reasonable, right? Like,

15:18

that's not advisable. So

15:20

to hear you tell it like that, all

15:23

in 40 days to have those

15:25

rocks tumbling downhill,

15:28

holy moly. Did

15:30

you have to keep talking yourself into it?

15:33

Or once you committed to the path where

15:35

you like, I know what to do? Honestly,

15:39

well, I'm an anxious, terrified person all

15:41

the time. So the fear was always

15:43

present. But the road appeared. It

15:46

appeared. I don't think that I could have

15:48

not walked down at once. It became obvious

15:50

to me. I was scared, but I knew

15:52

I had to do it because I knew

15:54

whatever had me in its teeth, whatever instinct

15:56

or intuition was pulling me forward, it wasn't

15:58

going to let me down. let me go

16:00

until I followed forward. And

16:03

I think that we forget sometimes, like

16:05

you were talking about this sense of

16:07

instinct and intuition, like, were creatures just

16:09

like the rest of the world? And

16:11

how do the birds know when it's

16:14

time to migrate and fly south or

16:16

move out of a habitat or find

16:19

a safer space? And I think our

16:21

bodies know too. And I think

16:23

that's what I woke up to in this just

16:25

radical way that wasn't gonna let me go until

16:27

I followed. I'm thinking about my listener

16:30

right now whose little heart is

16:32

like drumming in her little chest right

16:34

now going, oh my God, I know

16:36

that voice. I know

16:38

that nightmare. I know that

16:40

sense of feeling trapped and stuck that I

16:42

need to make a change. I'm

16:44

curious, was one of those

16:47

categories harder than

16:49

the others? Yeah,

16:51

for me, it was really letting go of

16:53

the corporate job because I

16:55

had been a high school English teacher

16:57

before that. So as much

16:59

as I loved education, I moved into marketing

17:02

and working at a branding agency in the

17:04

corporate world because I really

17:06

wanted to feel stable after not making

17:08

a ton as an educator. And

17:11

that was very terrifying to me that,

17:13

oh, I had built up this career

17:16

and I had worked so hard to get

17:18

these promotions and for so long and I'm

17:21

six or seven years in and

17:23

suddenly I come to this new

17:25

conclusion that actually this work doesn't

17:27

feel meaningless. We're in the middle

17:29

of a global pandemic and I'm working on email campaigns.

17:32

Is this the work with the capital W that

17:34

I wanna do? And I realized that I actually

17:37

didn't, that it was poetry and language that I

17:39

wanted to really be about in

17:41

the world. And it felt almost too

17:43

terrifying to let myself dream that that

17:45

could be my life. And so I

17:47

think that's for a lot of people

17:49

and it's a very real concern. Financial

17:51

stability is huge and I don't wanna

17:54

be naive in saying it's easy to just

17:56

throw that out the window. It wasn't for me and

17:58

it wasn't for a lot of. people

18:00

listening, it won't be, but I had

18:02

to really bet on myself that

18:04

whatever in me was asking could

18:07

also carry. Why

18:10

did you get Portland? Did you have a reason? Well,

18:13

for your life, what's as far that direction

18:15

as I can get, let's just keep driving

18:17

till we hit water. Well,

18:20

yeah, I can't go any further west

18:22

really. Yeah, exactly. So

18:24

that was pretty far. But also, you

18:26

know, I started dating a bunch of

18:28

different cities, and I was actually going

18:31

to move to Denver often. And when

18:33

I was visiting Denver, someone said, you

18:36

know, I could see in Portland, but I said,

18:38

I'm not moving to Portland. That's so far. That's

18:40

not even a direct flight to my family. And

18:42

then I went and it just something clicked.

18:44

I don't know if it was the ocean

18:47

or the fact that everything is green here.

18:49

But something just felt like, yeah, you can,

18:51

you can see yourself here. And the other

18:53

thing that it did is actually, I didn't

18:55

have any connections here. And while that was

18:58

terrifying and lonely for about the first year

19:00

after I moved, it gave

19:02

me this incredible gift of anonymity. So

19:05

I could sort of become

19:07

anyone I wanted to be within that

19:09

space. And I didn't have any old

19:11

narratives, I didn't have any truly friends

19:13

or connections. It just let me sort

19:16

of bloom open in this way that

19:18

let me experiment and then try on

19:20

a lot of different ideas until I

19:22

found really rooted in where I landed.

19:25

And to be about 36, to

19:27

give yourself that gift is feels really

19:29

special to say, how could I reinvent?

19:31

And so Portland was really, I think

19:34

I could have gone anywhere. I tell people I

19:36

don't think it matters where you go. But

19:38

to be able to give yourself an

19:41

opportunity to really reinvent, that's the good

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20:59

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21:01

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21:08

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21:10

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21:12

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21:14

struggle to be vulnerable and truly open

21:16

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21:18

in relationships. We're both idicram 3 so

21:21

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21:23

chose sobriety and the surprising clarity

21:25

that emerged in her marriage and

21:28

also the profound impact of

21:30

the love letter exercise guided

21:32

by Liz Gilbert where love's

21:35

voice urged Amanda to stop

21:37

keeping score in life. You

21:40

can hear more from Abby, Glennon

21:43

and Amanda as they chat with guests

21:45

like former first lady

21:47

Michelle Obama, Tracy Ellis

21:50

Ross, Gloria Steinem, Elizabeth Gilbert,

21:52

Brandi Carlile, Brene Brown and

21:54

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21:57

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22:00

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22:02

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23:36

I want to talk about that idea of belonging in

23:38

just a second at the

23:40

genesis of a lot of Did

23:42

you have people around you who were like,

23:45

I love this for you. This is a good

23:47

decision. I like what you're choosing. And

23:50

or both. Did you also

23:52

have people going, this is so

23:55

outrageous. This is not responsible.

23:57

I'm afraid for you. me,

24:01

it's sometimes the outside voices

24:04

that are the obstacle

24:07

to overcome chosen change. I'm

24:11

curious what that felt

24:13

like to you to hear whatever

24:15

you heard and what did that

24:17

look like? Oh, did

24:19

I love that phrase chosen change

24:21

that's such an honoring of the

24:24

sovereignty that is to make a

24:26

decision. I was raised

24:28

in a household that it was very

24:30

much like you got permission to do

24:32

things. This idea of culpability was linked

24:35

to this idea of sin, which was

24:37

maybe very fearful for a long time

24:40

of making a choice. I

24:42

even talk about this in the book, but

24:44

it's this idea of culpability was really scary

24:47

for me because how do I know that

24:49

I'm making the right choice? So yeah, there

24:51

were a lot of people that was like,

24:53

you know, you had this beautiful life in

24:55

Ohio, you own your own house, you're with

24:58

this really nice man, like what

25:00

are you doing? And why do you feel

25:03

the need to blow that up? Like that's

25:05

a chaotic thing to be about. But I

25:07

would say that the people closest to me

25:09

also recognized that it was

25:11

time. Even my mom was

25:13

just incredibly, she just kept

25:16

saying, I get it, I get

25:18

it. And that's all I needed her

25:20

to say was that like, like instinct

25:22

recognized instinct. And so it was this

25:25

knowing that like, wherever this goes, it's

25:27

really important that you yourself make

25:30

the choice and that you rest that

25:32

you made a choice, be it like

25:34

beautiful or mistake, that the power has to

25:37

be that you begin to choose for yourself.

25:39

And that's, I think, the magic of that decision

25:41

for me. You have the

25:43

incredible benefit right now of a little bit

25:46

of hindsight. This has fleshed

25:48

out in your life now, to some

25:50

degree that you are able to self assess

25:52

and kind of go, all right, what would you

25:54

have gone back and told yourself when you were like,

25:57

clutched in fear that day riding that plane?

26:00

palm and Sedona, lonely,

26:03

unsure, spent,

26:06

and a little frazzled. What advice would you have given

26:08

that girl, knowing what you know now? Yeah.

26:11

Well, I think what I was doing and I didn't even

26:13

realize that I was doing at

26:15

the time was that I was inching towards the

26:18

ledge. And maybe it's good that I didn't know

26:20

I was even headed towards the ledge because I

26:23

don't know if I could have done it. I don't know if

26:25

I would have written that poem if I knew it was

26:27

about to blow up my life, right? I'd been

26:29

in a relationship that I probably needed to leave for

26:31

a while and just had left it because I couldn't

26:33

look at it. So what's really interesting

26:35

and what I tell people who say, I

26:37

don't know how to make a huge leap.

26:40

And I'm like, don't make a huge leap.

26:42

Orient yourself towards the ledge and

26:44

go in incremental little

26:47

shifts. It's just a posture of

26:49

beginning to leap. I think it's

26:51

really a big ask to say,

26:53

blow up your life, do

26:55

it all, jump into the magic dark. That

26:58

can have an interesting urgency. But I think

27:00

that's unrealistic for a lot of people. I

27:02

mean, I'm literally sitting at my writing desk

27:04

right now. And I look out every morning

27:07

and I see these squirrels jumping

27:09

from rooftop to power line

27:11

to power line to pine tree. And

27:13

I've always gotten really fascinated. How do

27:15

these squirrels know that they're going to

27:18

make these leaps, right? They just fling

27:20

themselves off the roof and they always

27:22

get caught. And I did a little

27:24

research about squirrels because I was really

27:26

bugging me. Like, why don't I see

27:28

these squirrels fall? How do they know?

27:30

And what I learned is that squirrels

27:33

don't know. They misjudge the leap all

27:35

the time. But what they do do

27:37

is that they innovate midair and they

27:39

figure out how to catch themselves if

27:41

they misjudge the leap. And they use all

27:43

of that data, they collect all of that

27:46

memory just like they collect acorns to teach

27:48

themselves how to jump further. And

27:50

to me, there's just this expansive metaphor

27:53

present in that about us too. Like,

27:55

you don't have to get the leap

27:57

right every time. You don't have to.

28:00

take the colossal jump. But what is

28:02

one movement? If you want to leave

28:04

your corporate job, can you give yourself

28:06

an exit ramp of nine months and

28:08

say, I'm going to take one step

28:10

every day to move myself closer to

28:13

that ledge. And then I'm going to

28:15

freakin leap, right? But I think it's

28:17

the posture of beginning to leap and

28:19

to stretching those muscles of courage that

28:21

make us ready to go. And then

28:23

once before you know it, you're midair

28:25

and then the sleep gets bigger and

28:28

bigger. People say, well, you're really courageous

28:30

to me a lot. And I think

28:32

really, I don't think that I am.

28:34

I think that I had slowly had

28:36

a posture of beginning to leap for

28:38

a long time. So now the muscularity

28:40

of taking farther and farther leaps just

28:42

gets a lot easier. So I think

28:44

it's really important to not compare yourself

28:46

to somebody who is mid their leap,

28:48

because there were probably a lot of

28:50

scoots to the edge before

28:53

they launched. That's so

28:55

good. I want to talk.

28:58

You're not a stranger to massive

29:02

life upheaval. You've got

29:04

some of this coded into

29:07

your childhood, into your

29:10

experience, you know what it means

29:12

to have literally

29:15

left an entire place,

29:17

a complete sense of belonging where you

29:20

were, and have

29:22

to be in a totally new environment.

29:24

I wonder if you could talk for

29:26

just a moment about growing up and

29:28

about what that looked like

29:30

and when you left and why. And that

29:32

maybe that was a bit of a, of

29:35

the earliest path that you

29:38

learned to walk that kind of came back

29:40

rose back up for you later as an

29:42

adult. Yeah.

29:44

So my family lived in Quebec and

29:46

then Haiti and then Central African Republic

29:48

when I was a girl and we

29:50

shifted a lot. Right. So just like

29:53

you were mentioning a lot of the

29:55

upheaval, it was kind of hardwired into

29:57

me early on. And in 1996, my

29:59

family was actually evacuated from our

30:01

home in Central Africa because of

30:03

warfare and we relocated to Dayton,

30:05

Ohio, which is a culture

30:07

shock, right? An obvious choice. Right.

30:10

You know, and so you

30:12

go from like this beautiful tropical

30:14

jungle to literally the cornfields of

30:16

Ohio and then for me

30:18

just this incredible sense of loss

30:20

and rupture and reinvention, like literally

30:22

having to figure out then how to

30:25

exist in a place where I

30:27

now look like everyone else. But

30:30

I felt so dissimilar.

30:33

I felt even less like I belonged

30:35

than in the place that I had

30:37

come to know as home. So yeah,

30:40

I definitely think that idea of rupture,

30:42

reinvention, starting over again is a survival

30:44

skill that I also learned, but also

30:47

this idea of the page, right? So

30:49

not being able to speak the language for

30:51

a lot of the years growing up

30:53

because we were in different countries, I came to

30:55

the page a lot and then I stayed

30:57

with the page when we came back home

31:00

or to Ohio because that was the

31:02

only place where I felt like I

31:04

could really be understood or know myself

31:06

in the midst of so much culture shock.

31:11

You mentioned it earlier when you talked

31:13

about those lines

31:15

about homes, being homes that crawl the

31:18

lives we're not living, but the second

31:20

sentence is really profound because you said

31:23

you must commit to the road and the

31:25

rising loneliness. And that

31:28

is a tall order. It's

31:30

true, but it's

31:33

a daunting commission at

31:35

the beginning of the road. And

31:38

so having experienced

31:41

so viscerally a sense

31:43

of loneliness, as you just mentioned, having

31:46

left the culture that

31:48

you knew where even there

31:50

you of course you were obviously

31:52

different, but you had formulated a real

31:54

sense of home. And then to come

31:56

to Ohio and be like, I literally don't. Where's my

31:59

place? only imagine, I'd like

32:01

to hear you talk a little bit

32:03

about what you

32:05

mean by the

32:07

important role of loneliness in

32:10

this whole, whole gamut.

32:12

Why does that matter? Why is

32:14

loneliness one of the ingredients? Yeah,

32:18

it's so interesting because that

32:20

was the the dark gift

32:22

of the pandemic was the

32:24

supreme sense of loneliness. And

32:27

obviously we don't want to have to

32:29

always stay in loneliness, but I think

32:31

sometimes we reject it or ignore it

32:33

and we don't see it as the

32:35

phenomenal teacher that it is. And for

32:38

me what loneliness has really offered throughout

32:40

the pandemic and then throughout like literally

32:42

multiple times of my life moving to

32:44

some place where I either don't know the

32:46

culture, I don't know anyone, or I don't speak the

32:48

language is that you develop this

32:50

intense sense of having to listen

32:53

to who you are and

32:55

what it is that you need. And sometimes

32:57

it's in that unbearable stillness that

32:59

we give ourselves a chance to

33:01

really hear whatever it is that's

33:03

asking to come out. And sometimes

33:06

I just feel like if you're like

33:08

me it gets lost in that nine

33:10

to five the blare of everyday life,

33:13

right? That din that's you know in

33:16

traffic jams and buried in

33:19

office meetings. And sometimes what

33:21

loneliness gives us is this

33:23

opportunity to really hear like what is

33:26

the other life? What is the next

33:28

stage? What is the evolution that is asking

33:30

me to be born? And I think you

33:33

know nothing is as lonely as the

33:35

desert in December and just

33:37

getting to go to this place of utter

33:40

stillness geographically, but also as

33:42

a metaphor within myself was just this

33:44

opportunity to hear myself in a way

33:46

that I never had before. So I

33:48

think you absolutely the loneliness of the

33:50

road is something you just have to

33:52

like sign up for as part of

33:55

the evolution. I

33:58

Want to talk to you in a second.? About

34:00

the craft. Of poetry and

34:02

your particular gift for it. But before

34:04

we get to that I wonder if

34:07

weekend dive over here for a second

34:09

on some of these conversations about in

34:11

the midst of all this was. His

34:13

blue are who, what you want to

34:16

bring to bear in the world Like

34:18

these really big questions. That you

34:20

were asking and then answering

34:22

with your choices. There's also

34:24

this. Page.

34:27

And structure right in the

34:29

middle of it of the

34:31

see mill experience in the

34:33

midst of. All. This

34:35

change all these other North Stars

34:37

that you are following and you

34:40

have. A Really. Specific.

34:43

Background. Your childhood,

34:45

Your faith structures that you

34:47

grew up inside. As kids,

34:50

you just sort of. Talk.

34:52

About what those were, What did

34:54

you grow up in? What sort

34:57

of spiritual environment? And then some

34:59

of the messages that you gleaned from know.

35:03

It's a human. But also as a

35:05

girl. Yes, Absolutely

35:07

so My parents were at

35:09

this mysterious my dad was

35:11

a general surgeon and also

35:13

thought we were there in

35:15

Haiti and then also Central

35:17

Africa. My parents were there

35:20

as missionaries and sell spaced

35:22

into. That was a lotta

35:24

messaging about sender about obviously

35:26

what it meant. To lead a

35:28

special place. And also this

35:30

sense of like what it meant

35:32

speak and a think I've really

35:34

coded that insert my face you

35:36

what it meant to be good

35:39

woman, good girls and is that

35:41

isn't a message that's only present.

35:43

Certainly. In more traditional evangelical

35:46

it songs, but it's. certainly

35:48

a message that women in turn allies

35:50

and that there's only one way to

35:52

be good and it said here to

35:54

said have a very specific life tasks

35:56

and expression of oneself i think well

35:58

it's hard for me is if I

36:00

got into my 20s and my 30s,

36:03

I didn't have the life that I sort of

36:05

felt like I had art always should have had

36:07

based on, you know, what a woman was supposed

36:09

to get, husband, kids, right,

36:11

the stability of the white picket

36:14

fence, etc. And what's been interesting

36:16

is when I sort of recreated

36:18

or fractured some of those stories

36:21

culturally and religiously that I had

36:23

been given, my life just expanded

36:25

into possibility because it had never

36:28

occurred to me that a woman could be

36:30

really, really happy if she didn't

36:32

choose those things. That was even an option,

36:34

that you didn't have to feel this intense

36:36

sense of shame or grief that maybe that

36:39

was not the life that was going to

36:41

be given to you. And something really magical

36:43

happened for me when I was able to

36:46

let go of shame or grief that I

36:48

hadn't gotten those things. At the end of

36:50

the day, I wasn't even sure that I

36:52

actually wanted them. But it

36:55

was this idea that, you know, good

36:57

Christian girls get certain things. And

36:59

what's so powerful for me about

37:01

the page is you

37:04

get to subvert or crack open a

37:06

story and figure out what you want

37:08

to reinvent for yourself. And so part

37:10

of the book is even looking at

37:13

that character of Eve and sort of

37:15

cracking open her story and saying, what's

37:17

here in the margins? What's

37:19

here if we would reinvent

37:21

the story and tell it a little

37:24

bit differently? And so, yeah, I think

37:27

that's where I've sort of netted out and

37:29

how to unpack from a linguistic perspective

37:31

some of the stories that I was given

37:33

as a child and begin to deconstruct. And

37:36

what do you see in the

37:39

margins of that story? How

37:41

do you envision that being

37:44

reinvented, reimagined even?

37:47

Yeah, so in the middle of the book,

37:49

it kind of does this funny rupture, this

37:51

sort of, it begins with this very Edenic,

37:54

pre-pandemic, idyllic childhood

37:56

world, and then it moves into this

37:58

sense of right. or cracking. And

38:01

in the interlude of the book, the

38:03

book departs from the usual themes of

38:06

reinvention, travel, going west, and it tells

38:08

this story in about 10 or 12

38:10

poems about Eve. And it's called that

38:13

interlude in the book is called Westward,

38:15

a Woman Box. And

38:17

I was so fascinated by Eve because

38:19

in my religious background, we

38:21

always heard that, you know, it

38:24

was all Eve's fault. She messed

38:26

up. She's responsible for the downfall of

38:28

humankind. I was in

38:30

an airport once walking and I saw

38:32

this woman with a piece of fruit

38:34

in her hand. And I in

38:36

my little brains, I was like, God, I

38:39

wonder if that was Eve and to reimagine

38:41

her as this like almost

38:43

jet setting woman who was traveling

38:45

throughout time, she's literally the first

38:47

woman to leap West to

38:49

see her not as a fall, but as a

38:52

leap was a lot of

38:54

inspiration behind this

38:56

book and behind my own life of

38:59

could I could I take the

39:02

stories, the narratives, the expectations placed

39:04

on women? And could I totally

39:06

subvert them to see what's possible

39:08

for me and my own expression?

39:10

And could I use my own

39:12

language to tell that story a

39:14

different way? So

39:16

good. It's such

39:18

a generous reading.

39:20

It's such a generous projection.

39:24

And for me

39:27

and a lot of people like me in

39:29

this community who grew up in faith spaces,

39:31

most of us kind of conventional traditional

39:34

gender roles, all the whole thing, you know.

39:36

And of course, as you know, in

39:38

our world, our aspirations were

39:40

to be the tip top rung on

39:42

the ladder was to be a missionary. So

39:44

you did it. You had

39:46

the top rung. Like that was

39:49

the pinnacle of faithfulness. And, you know,

39:51

it was this idea that sacrificing

39:54

whatever you actually wanted

39:57

was the way to please God. So

40:00

if that meant I don't want to chase a

40:02

dream here, I don't want to live in a

40:04

little cozy community with like best friends, like that

40:07

was almost indulgent. And

40:09

so it is resonant

40:12

to hear you talk about rupturing

40:15

that narrative and imagining what

40:17

it can look like in a joyful, fulfilling

40:20

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podcast. I

43:48

want to talk to you about one other Remember how explosive I mean

43:50

he looks every week but especially against us.

43:52

Yep. you wrote a poem called, I Took My Body Out To Dinner. It's so good. It's

43:55

so good. And

43:57

you talk about this idea. and

44:00

also the challenge of women

44:04

belonging to themselves, first

44:06

and foremost and forever. This

44:09

is a very new lesson for

44:11

me that I have learned in the last four

44:13

years, which for me felt

44:16

revolutionary. I wonder

44:18

if you can talk a little bit about it and

44:20

what you have learned and discovered

44:22

about treating yourself

44:25

and your body and your soul

44:28

with such great care. Yeah,

44:31

that's such a lovely question,

44:33

Jenna, and something. I feel like, God, I'm

44:36

almost 40 and it's still something like, how

44:38

am I learning this so late in life?

44:41

It's just like radical to finally

44:43

feel like you begin to hold a

44:45

different space for yourself than

44:47

you have previously, especially as a younger

44:49

woman. And for me,

44:52

I have never understood the concept of

44:55

self-care and self-love. It's super irritating when

44:57

my therapist tells me to talk nicely

44:59

to myself that has never resonated or

45:01

understood. I understand the concept, but I

45:04

don't understand how to do it in

45:06

practicality. And what really

45:08

shifted for me, I think

45:10

in stories and I think in metaphors. And

45:12

a couple of years ago when I still

45:14

lived in Ohio, what really expanded

45:16

this idea of self and sovereignty and

45:19

self-love was I lived across from a

45:21

house that had two dogs and

45:23

they kept these young dogs on their porch

45:26

in cages. And it took

45:28

me a couple of weeks to realize that

45:30

these dogs were not being well treated. And

45:32

then eventually, the more I watched, I began

45:34

to really wonder and later

45:37

realize that these dogs were being groomed for dog

45:39

fighting. And there were two dogs. There was a

45:41

shepherd mix and then there was a pit bull.

45:44

And they would keep the

45:46

shepherd always in the cage and they wouldn't feed it.

45:48

And then they would feed the pit bull in front

45:51

of it. And it was a really

45:53

heartbreaking, very traumatic experience.

45:55

But to watch that shepherd

45:58

mix learn. time

46:00

and time again. I

46:02

will not be fed, I will not be loved,

46:05

I will not be honored. I

46:07

can't bite because my jaw is gonna

46:09

be bound. And so eventually,

46:11

I mean, there was a happy story.

46:13

I ended up repeatedly

46:15

and very dramatically calling the Humane Society.

46:18

They ended up getting the dogs

46:20

out. My friends invested the shepherd

46:22

mix. And to see that dog

46:24

transformed, it took a really long

46:26

time because that dog was hardwired

46:28

to accept abuse as a norm.

46:31

But to see that dog after weeks

46:33

of being praised, weeks of being loved,

46:35

weeks of being fed, turn into a

46:38

different animal. And why

46:40

do I tell that story is

46:42

because that just unlocked something in

46:44

my brain that struggles with this

46:46

concept of how do I really

46:49

be good to myself. It

46:51

was, I don't put her in

46:53

the cage. I don't ask her

46:55

to accept scraps. I don't bind

46:57

her jaw when she needs to

46:59

bite. And that idea

47:01

of like, we're all kind of creatures,

47:03

we're all animals in the end, and

47:06

what we're fed we metabolize. And so

47:08

I just gained after that,

47:10

like really traumatic experience of

47:12

witnessing an animal continually mistreated

47:14

and then having to work

47:16

really hard to try

47:18

and get the animal out of that

47:20

situation. I realized if I

47:22

don't do that with the sovereignty of

47:24

my heart, I'm also in a cage.

47:26

And if I let myself continually accept

47:28

mistreatment, if I take crumbs and

47:31

call it a meal, if I don't exit rooms

47:33

where I'm not called beloved, then

47:35

I'm doing the same thing. I'm internalizing

47:37

the same messaging than that dog was.

47:39

And it just really shifted for me.

47:42

That is the image that always comes

47:44

in my mind when I begin to

47:46

feel myself in a situation that doesn't

47:49

honor the self. So I don't know,

47:51

some people find affirmations really helpful. Some

47:53

people are able to talk lovingly to

47:55

their self, but for me it was just

47:57

this idea of Get the dog out of the

47:59

cage. Don't. Learn that the

48:01

highest. Have to move in the world. That.

48:03

Is very powerful. I'm

48:06

what a metaphor And

48:09

so now. You've

48:11

done it. You've done nothing.

48:13

You have released yourself from

48:16

every cage really and I

48:18

can only imagine. I am

48:20

lucky enough to have made

48:22

friends with a handful of.

48:26

And I have famously.

48:29

Grew up, I struggled to understand

48:31

poetry. Not like understand why it's

48:33

precious. A meaningful, literally. understand. That

48:35

takes my brain about. Or some sort

48:38

things I don't understand what is known

48:40

for. It's I'm logical and I'm. kind

48:43

of analytical I thought was to the going to

48:45

say herbs and so. It's

48:47

been like my great delight. A handful of

48:49

years ago I was like I. Have

48:52

heart. I am a

48:54

writer. I love love.

48:56

I love metaphor. I

48:58

can understand. Poetry. And so I

49:00

started. Like immersing myself in that like that's

49:02

it. let's go soccer. Not like as all

49:04

hell with all the time the my whole

49:06

feel. Is going to be to poets

49:09

and poetry and fall So many

49:11

and I have just. Been

49:13

so delighted to become

49:15

sort of a weekend

49:17

and like enlightened and

49:19

included. In the world of

49:22

poets which is such a lovely. World.

49:24

It's such a lovely world,

49:26

so I'm guessing that this

49:28

was the world that you

49:30

understand is understood. In. Language like

49:32

this In terms like your whole

49:34

life. Have you been a poet's

49:36

ensure? a kindergartner? I

49:39

would love to see yes but no

49:41

he said now see the state as

49:43

I wrote without feeling that the stories

49:45

that I wrote but what I will

49:47

say is I wasn't a poet early

49:49

on as the kinda poetry li later

49:51

in life I went to grad school

49:53

for poetry when i bought twenty five

49:55

that not written many poles previously when

49:57

I first came the page that actually

49:59

ensure. But still it back on

50:01

our earlier conversation, I was in such

50:04

in Central African Republic and I didn't

50:06

speak the language. Yes, and so my

50:08

mother would let me bring a notebook

50:11

and pen and I would write for

50:13

three or four hours. And so again.

50:15

I've seen poetry always or the page

50:17

always as this way to reconnect with

50:20

the south and unites you older sisters.

50:22

We were both family. I was often

50:24

interrupted or drowned out in Congress a

50:27

sense. The Pays was a space where

50:29

I could. Be interrupted. I

50:31

could see a stay my own truth

50:33

in my own language and the to

50:35

zenith of that the sovereignty of that

50:37

getting to. Tell your story with your

50:39

words. With whatever name you choose

50:42

for cel I see it is just

50:44

as poetry this beautiful a to access

50:46

not only felt that to see the

50:48

world in a really rich and expensive

50:51

way. I

50:53

love to hear that you

50:55

have a obviously the in

50:57

a gift for it for

50:59

language and ideas kind so

51:01

interesting for me How poetry.

51:05

Is for me. I have

51:07

learned that it acts as

51:09

a portal. It is able

51:11

to unlock something and me

51:13

that just isn't the. Best.

51:16

Most instructive language can't.

51:18

Do it. Kind of like you said

51:20

earlier with a therapist to keep saying

51:23

say my force yourself with i know

51:25

what you are saying but I can't

51:27

give that a lance. I cannot get

51:30

the key to turn a lot until

51:32

I read a poetic version of that

51:34

moment and the sudden like bear it

51:36

is it finds it's way and it's

51:39

such a powerful medium. And

51:41

it matters. Poetry matters either.

51:43

sustenance say that foolishly like

51:46

allows. Us to put like it's

51:48

only medium. To. Clean up We

51:50

had sublets of think it's the only

51:52

place that than hold the unstable that

51:54

is the definition of home. it's

51:56

the only space that we had that

51:58

holds not which cannot spoken in any

52:01

other art form. And so all

52:03

of the ache, all of the beauty,

52:05

all of the impossibility of being alive,

52:07

that's what poems are for. That's it.

52:10

And your book's about to come out. And

52:13

everyone's going to get to see for themselves what

52:16

it is that we are talking about, what it

52:18

is that you put on the page. And

52:21

I mean, who can't understand the

52:23

themes of leaving and leaping? Who?

52:27

Especially, I'm a decade older than you. I'll

52:29

be 50 this year. I

52:31

don't know anybody in our age

52:33

range that hasn't dealt with massive

52:36

change by choice or by force.

52:38

Either way, there we are. And

52:41

what it means to take leaps.

52:43

And so it's just beautiful. I'm

52:45

so excited for everybody to have it. I'm

52:48

so proud of you for all the work that

52:50

it took to get it there. I know

52:53

that's work. Yes, poets live

52:55

up in their little beautiful headspace,

52:57

but also it's work. It

53:00

is work to craft that thing

53:03

into the final finished product.

53:05

And so I'm excited for you.

53:08

And I hope that its release is

53:11

everything that you hope it will

53:13

be, that it's meaningful and

53:15

it's a connective tissue between

53:18

all your readers and everyone who's going to find

53:20

you and that it

53:22

serves them well. So this is my last

53:24

question about this. And then we'll wrap it

53:26

up here. What are you

53:28

hoping? And I know you're not

53:31

writing a template. You're not handing over a formula.

53:34

I know that you're not. That's not what poetry

53:36

is. But even

53:38

inside of your craft, your medium,

53:40

what are you hoping that

53:43

your reader closes that last

53:45

page and feels or

53:47

knows or walks

53:49

away with? Thank you for

53:51

all those kind words. I Would

53:54

say the thing that I always tell people

53:56

is I'm a poet, not a preacher. And

53:58

My job is not to give. Any

54:00

faith hit by a to actually name

54:02

the eight am I think it's a

54:04

reader At the end of this book

54:07

feels like they closer and they have

54:09

felt like they finally have language which

54:11

for so long and my life has

54:13

struggled to find a family of language

54:16

to Philly begins to the fine for

54:18

themselves, work wherever it is there. had

54:20

it and were pretty a graphical or

54:22

the West as metaphor symbolically for oneself.

54:25

Whatever. It is that they feel

54:27

a little more in touch with that

54:29

in scenes. With that it's intuition with

54:32

that life that maybe they haven't had

54:34

the space to holders see. Get it?

54:36

They just feel a little bit closer

54:38

to that. I think. Healthy. Really

54:41

pleased. Yeah, well I can

54:43

tell you as a reader who

54:45

accidentally stumbled. On one of your palm

54:47

out from a book that wasn't even

54:49

really sad and then put on the internet.

54:52

That's exactly what it it's me and here we

54:54

are. I. Pulled that thing out

54:57

of sight guys. it just a minute.

54:59

so long it's not belong at all.

55:01

And. It did that thing

55:03

for me and so we use is

55:05

how my community where's the best place

55:07

to follow you, where to find you

55:10

were. Can they get this buckets right?

55:12

A very second is up for. Preorder

55:14

but it comes on April ninth. Where are you

55:16

sending people to? the I Can do the same?

55:19

Yeah. Absolutely! seat in order s England,

55:21

Random House, dotcom it's You can also

55:23

follow me. I'm only on Instagram these

55:25

days so and so a solid and

55:27

how it is where you can find

55:29

me. and yeah I hope you love

55:31

the but I'm really excited to get

55:33

Susteren. Yeah, me too.

55:36

Okay, this is literally the. Last quarter and

55:38

twenty get. Everybody every series,

55:40

every guest. this is Barbara. I'm sailors

55:42

question that she put on one of

55:44

her box and she's been one of

55:46

those like spiritual guidance for me for

55:48

a lot of years. Answer.

55:51

However, you want to I literally to

55:53

be like nonsense or it could be

55:56

like the Presses poets thoughts like everything

55:58

in between. Her question is. What is

56:00

saving your life right now? Love

56:03

that question. Outside of my therapist,

56:05

I would say, I recently,

56:08

I love sad music

56:10

and I recently changed all the,

56:12

swapped all the sad music on

56:14

my Spotify for an upbeat indie,

56:16

energetic mix and it's awful and

56:19

it's getting me out of bed. So when

56:21

you're really stressed out about releasing a book,

56:24

you just gotta only listen to upbeat things.

56:26

It's literally waking me up in the morning.

56:28

That is such a funny answer. I

56:31

love that so much. My oldest son, Gavin, who just got

56:33

married this weekend, he only

56:35

and exclusively listens to sad music.

56:37

I mean, it's endless. The playlist

56:39

or Legion, they are this long, every

56:42

one of them and it just tickles me so

56:44

much that you're like, you know what? That's it,

56:46

happy songs. Let's go Taylor Swift. Let's

56:49

just re, let's swap it

56:51

out. That's amazing. I commend your

56:54

knowledge of your own brooding heart

56:56

to be like, uh-oh, I need to get up

56:58

in the top half the glass. I'm about to

57:00

release a book. Exactly,

57:03

yeah. I was like ride or die. We gotta

57:05

write this a log. That's

57:07

exactly right. That's

57:10

so fantastic. Well, I'm so excited for you

57:12

and grateful that I

57:14

have found you and found your

57:16

work and I'm thrilled

57:19

that the rest of the world is going

57:21

to have access to what it is you

57:23

do. And I'm so excited for you and the

57:26

special brand of magic that you bring to

57:28

the page. And I am so

57:30

looking forward for you to

57:32

begin to hear in

57:37

a new scale and scope, what your words

57:39

are meaning to

57:41

people that cannot be replicated. It

57:45

is so overwhelming. It's so over the

57:47

top when your readers start saying they

57:50

take what you said out of your pen

57:53

and your experience. And I'm so

57:55

excited that you could not have even imagined

57:57

like you could it. And they'll tell you,

57:59

they'll Tell you. that's about what this means to me in

58:01

this moment in. this is why, and it's. Stunning. and

58:03

it never gets old. And it is

58:05

so special. And the fact that we

58:08

get to write words that mean something

58:10

to people is such a gift. we

58:12

are lucky. So. I'm.

58:14

Excited for your. Bank. Account

58:16

rather show today. Oh My. God. Thank

58:19

you So I said this isn't such a pleasure at

58:21

a really so It's added to the have. A

58:35

right. I. Mean,

58:37

what'd I tell you? What? Did

58:40

I tell you the dogs story?

58:42

I just found that. Inspiring.

58:46

That is joy and that's how see

58:49

his and that's how she writes and

58:51

I think I could see you are

58:53

going to. Want instructions for traveling west

58:55

in your hand? Again,

58:58

like to her points on a

59:00

preacher. it's not a formula, but

59:02

it is. It

59:04

is nonetheless. This beautiful

59:06

path. To. Get a peek in on.

59:08

And draw inspiration from how wonderful. And so

59:11

if you go over to June, hatmaker.com and

59:13

Podcast have all have this whole episode. The

59:15

have the show notes of links to everything

59:17

so you can follow Joys you can find

59:20

her book. And

59:22

you can share. This isn't as a good. Cerebral

59:24

episode as Joy was

59:26

talking. I kept thinking

59:28

of the people I wanted to send this

59:31

to sell. we love it when you do

59:33

that and we love you. Thanks for subscribing!

59:35

First of all, and being like such incredible

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59:42

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59:44

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59:48

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59:50

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59:52

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59:54

miss anything else in this incredible series

59:57

on change and will seen as a

59:59

day The

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For the Love Podcast with Jen

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