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For The Love A Gym Hatmaker is

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better Help help.com/ For the less,

2:00

Hey, everyone, Jen Hatmaker here, your

2:02

host of the For the Love podcast. Welcome to

2:04

the show. This series

2:06

has just been so good.

2:08

We are in the

2:11

Embracing Change series, which

2:14

I can't think of anybody literally in my entire

2:16

life, this doesn't apply to in some way, whether

2:18

you are in change that

2:20

you are choosing or needing to choose

2:22

or change has chosen you in some

2:24

way. We're all there.

2:27

And this episode, I think is going to touch

2:29

your soul in ways that you maybe didn't expect,

2:33

including diving into the healing power

2:35

of writing and reclaiming

2:37

agency in the

2:41

face of constant change and

2:44

uncertainty. You guys, our guest

2:46

today is so remarkable. So

2:48

remarkable. Nezwa Zabian is

2:50

who we have today. She's a poet, an

2:53

author. She's an advocate. Her

2:56

words have been hope for literally millions of

2:58

people in our world. She has millions of

3:01

followers and you'll see why. She

3:03

has quite a story. And

3:05

we were just talking a second

3:07

ago after we had finished recording and I she's

3:10

like, you're such a good listener. And I'm like,

3:12

you're such a good storyteller. I just wanted you

3:14

to tell me more and more and more about

3:16

her life. And I think you're going to find a lot of

3:18

points of connection, even, even if we were

3:21

raised in different cultures and with different

3:23

circumstances, some of the themes of abandonment

3:26

and a lack

3:29

of care and uncertainty

3:32

and displacement are universal.

3:35

So she's going to talk about that today and

3:38

what she learned and how she overcame

3:40

and how words were a part

3:42

of that journey. And really

3:44

guys, stay until the end because we get

3:47

to like the crescendo at the very

3:49

end of this interview where she

3:51

sort of steps into what

3:53

felt like her life thesis. I'm

3:55

like, there, there, look at that.

3:58

So. Let me

4:01

tell you about her a little

4:03

bit before we start hearing her

4:05

story. So Dr. Nejwa Zabian, she's

4:07

a Lebanese, Canadian, activist, author, speaker,

4:09

and educator. She taught her doctorate

4:11

in educational leadership. Nejwa

4:14

began to write in

4:17

an effort to connect

4:19

with and help heal her

4:22

first students, which

4:24

was a group of young refugees,

4:27

which she understood, and you'll find

4:29

out more about that. And

4:31

then come to find out, she began writing to

4:33

heal herself. So she

4:35

is the author of six

4:38

books. She delivered the

4:40

Ted Talk, Finding Home Through Poetry.

4:43

She recently launched a digital school

4:45

called Soul Academy, and also a

4:48

podcast called In the Clear. So

4:50

her latest book is

4:52

called The Only Constant, and

4:55

it's a powerful message, a

4:59

very powerful message of agency

5:02

and autonomy, and being

5:05

able to trust ourselves as the

5:07

primary leader of our own lives.

5:10

You're going to love this. You're going to love her. Reminder,

5:13

if you ever want to watch an

5:15

interview, we video all of them. They're

5:17

over on my YouTube channel because sometimes

5:20

it's just powerful to watch a

5:22

guest tell her own story, and

5:25

Nejwa is powerful to watch in addition

5:27

to being spectacularly beautiful. So that's over

5:29

on YouTube if you'd like to watch

5:31

it in addition to listen to it. So

5:34

I am delighted that she was here and just

5:38

moved by today's conversation. So pour

5:40

yourself a cup of tea and

5:44

get ready to be inspired

5:46

by the absolutely wonderful

5:50

Nejwa Savian. Nejwa,

5:53

welcome to the show. I

6:01

was just telling you how delighted I

6:03

am to meet you. I'm so

6:05

moved by not just

6:07

what you like do in the world, who

6:10

you are and everything else has an

6:12

outcropping of that clearly. And

6:14

so I'm so looking forward to this conversation. Same

6:17

here. I'm really excited to have it with

6:19

you. And I feel like you and I

6:21

are on the same page in so many

6:23

ways. So this is gonna be a great

6:25

conversation. It sure is. I

6:28

wonder before we sort of dive in to

6:30

some of your story and some of your work,

6:32

would you mind just telling my

6:35

listening community the ones who don't know

6:37

you yet, this is kind of who

6:39

I am and this is where I am and

6:42

more or less, this is my deal in the world.

6:44

Yeah. So usually the first

6:46

word I use to describe myself before

6:48

any other title is human.

6:50

I'm a human who's been living

6:54

the human experience and my biggest

6:56

struggle in life since I was

6:58

extremely on like, since before I

7:00

can remember is feeling

7:03

like I'm out of place, feeling like

7:05

I'm a burden, like there's something about

7:08

me that's too much or too

7:10

wrong or too little or whatever. I just

7:12

always felt like I was out of place.

7:14

I struggled with feeling fully

7:17

and wholly embraced and prioritized

7:19

as a human being. That's,

7:21

I think my central struggle.

7:24

I can tell you about my

7:26

abandonment wounds and attachment wounds and

7:29

pain wounds, but really that's the

7:31

story. The story has always been,

7:33

I don't deserve love.

7:35

I don't deserve prioritization. I don't

7:37

deserve, those things are just for other

7:39

people. They're not for me. And

7:41

so having to go through that from

7:44

a very young age, I internalized certain

7:46

feelings that I couldn't put words to

7:49

just because I was so young, but

7:51

it didn't mean that I didn't internalize

7:54

certain messages about myself. So when

7:56

I turned 13, the only friend I had, gave

8:00

me a journal and I started writing in it

8:02

for the first time and that's when I felt

8:04

heard and seen in some way and the beautiful

8:06

part is that I was

8:08

giving myself that voice and I was

8:11

giving myself that crying shoulder. So

8:14

three years after that I moved to

8:17

Canada to join my family. I'd been

8:19

a Canadian citizen before that. I visited

8:21

before but this was the move and

8:24

so that intensified the feeling of being

8:28

out of place, the feeling of

8:30

displacement, which meant I was

8:32

so hyper aware of the way I was feeling

8:34

but I was also aware that there was nothing

8:36

I could do about it. So writing to me

8:39

at that point, journaling, meant

8:41

being reminded of my helplessness. I decided

8:43

I didn't want to write anymore, ripped

8:45

up my journals, never again. Seven

8:48

years go by, I live in what

8:50

I call black and white. I

8:53

meet my first group of students and I

8:55

see on their faces the same look I

8:57

knew I had when I first arrived in

8:59

Canada, just that feeling of what

9:03

am I doing here? I don't belong here

9:05

and I wanted to make them feel like

9:08

they already have a seat at the

9:10

table. So I started writing to inspire

9:12

them and in a way I started

9:14

healing myself and that was the beginning

9:16

of my writing journey that turned into

9:18

me being an author. There's a lot there.

9:21

I mean you just tapped down

9:23

on some pretty big chapters of

9:26

your life. I'd love to go

9:28

back a little bit and examine

9:30

those pieces a little bit closer.

9:32

First of all, you

9:35

did a lot of your childhood years

9:38

separate from your parents, right? Yeah,

9:41

can you talk about that a little bit? Where you

9:43

were, where they were, why were you apart? How did

9:45

that feel? In what ways did

9:47

that childhood

9:50

distance affect you? Because it certainly

9:52

must have. Absolutely.

9:54

So to set

9:57

the context, I

10:00

am the sixth child

10:02

in my family of six. So

10:05

the youngest, but also the youngest by

10:08

many years. Long story short, my

10:10

parents are originally from Lebanon. They met

10:12

and got married in Canada, had five kids,

10:14

decided they wanted to move to Lebanon, and

10:17

that's where I was born. So I

10:19

immediately was born into an environment

10:21

where my parents had already had

10:23

the five kids. They were done

10:26

raising children, and I came

10:28

as a surprise. And so I was

10:30

surrounded by people who were so much

10:32

older than me from a very young age,

10:34

which pushed me to mature a lot

10:37

earlier than any kid

10:39

around me. I literally remember looking

10:41

at kids who were my age, or even

10:43

a little bit older, and looking at them

10:46

as kids, and I didn't see myself as

10:48

a kid. So from

10:50

a young age, my dad was

10:52

heavily involved in politics. My mom

10:54

was just working really hard to

10:56

take care of us, and I

10:59

remember my mom started traveling to

11:01

Canada once my older

11:04

siblings started turning 18 and

11:06

moving back here. So she would come

11:08

to stay with them, and then I

11:10

would stay in Lebanon with my dad. And

11:12

my dad thought for many periods of time

11:14

that I was better off living with an

11:17

aunt or an uncle, or an uncle

11:20

who had a wife, and who could take

11:22

care of me, and feed me, and do

11:24

my laundry. And what that

11:26

meant was that I was constantly moving

11:28

from place to place with my backpack.

11:31

Like I didn't feel like there was

11:33

a consistent home that I could go

11:35

to, for I felt emotionally safe, or

11:38

I felt like I could talk about

11:40

my day. I already felt like

11:42

my feelings didn't matter. I was always extremely sensitive,

11:44

and so kids would bully me in school, and

11:47

teachers would bully me in school, and there was

11:49

no one to talk to at the end of

11:51

the day about it. And when I

11:53

got the opportunity to talk to my dad, my

11:56

dad is extremely stoic, and he

11:58

would look at me like, you're better than me. and

12:00

don't let them get to you,

12:02

but that meant that my feelings

12:04

weren't tended to. And I learned

12:06

with time that, you know, this

12:08

was honestly within the last three

12:10

or four years, I've learned that

12:12

neglect isn't just about not

12:14

getting your basic needs met. Sometimes

12:17

neglect is, I think the

12:19

most harmful neglect is not

12:21

getting the things that you do need. And

12:24

I needed that emotional attunement. I

12:26

needed to feel like my feelings

12:29

mattered. And I also needed to

12:31

feel like there

12:33

was an open chest to welcome me with

12:35

a hug at the end of the day

12:37

where I would feel that love, but it

12:39

was, I always felt so distant from me.

12:42

Like I would only see it in other

12:44

families. And there's one

12:46

really powerful theme in

12:48

my life during

12:50

those years when I lived far

12:52

away from my parents, I was living with

12:54

my aunt and uncle. And

12:58

what I experienced there was a

13:00

lot of exclusion and

13:03

not only exclusion, but feeling like it

13:06

was my fault that I was being

13:08

excluded. There's one story I vividly remember

13:11

that I talked about in Welcome Home.

13:13

And I referenced it as the only

13:15

constant as well, where it was the

13:17

night before a major celebration we have

13:19

in our culture. And me

13:21

and my cousins were playing in

13:24

the playroom and my aunt came

13:26

and looked at her kids and

13:28

said, let's go downstairs, it's family

13:30

time. And she looked at me and she

13:32

said, you stay here. And I

13:35

sat there and I remember hearing them open

13:38

gifts. My uncle had arrived from Canada the

13:40

night before and they were opening gifts and

13:43

they were all so happy and they're laughing.

13:45

And I would have been

13:47

eight or nine. And I remember that's

13:49

when the question first

13:52

appeared in my mind that said, why

13:54

can't I have that? Like, what is

13:56

it about me that

13:59

causes me to... not be

14:01

part of that love and

14:03

that laughter and that inclusion and

14:05

that prioritization. Somebody actually thinking about

14:08

whether I'm happy or not, every time they would

14:11

go out somewhere like, you know, in

14:13

Lebanon where we lived, it was like

14:15

a tiny village. So the nearest McDonald's,

14:18

for example, was like 40 minutes away.

14:20

So anytime they would plan these trips, like

14:22

on the weekends to go to a place

14:25

like McDonald's or to go to

14:28

a beautiful part

14:30

of nature, my aunt

14:32

would make sure that somebody came

14:34

and picked me up and took care

14:36

of me. It didn't matter who it

14:38

was. And if I couldn't get ahold

14:40

of my dad or another uncle

14:42

or another aunt, she, like I

14:44

would feel her pressure

14:48

on me, like, like figure it

14:50

out, figure it out because we have to go.

14:52

And so I would

14:54

say that happening.

14:58

And the fact that I

15:00

couldn't speak to my parents about

15:02

it and about how hurtful it

15:04

was left me feeling alone in

15:06

the experience and feeling like I

15:09

needed to figure things out on my own. I needed

15:12

to protect myself on my own. I needed to,

15:14

and at the same

15:16

time, I needed to not say anything

15:18

because that could mean further exclusion. That

15:20

could mean further not getting the little

15:23

breadcrumbs that I would get of inclusion

15:25

if they got certain kinds of snacks

15:27

that I wanted. So

15:31

during that time period between the age

15:33

of about eight to 16, I felt

15:35

like I

15:38

was like a 30

15:40

year old person, at least in

15:43

whatever age body I was.

15:45

And a lot of

15:47

those patterns of abandoning

15:50

myself in order to feel included

15:53

by somebody else are trying to

15:55

prove my God, the

15:57

race I had. That

16:00

I was running to prove my worth.

16:03

Ended very recently in my life

16:05

and they're still. Like.

16:08

They're still glimmers of and I'm aware of

16:10

it and I try to put an end

16:12

to it. I always felt like I needed

16:14

to prove. That. I'm a good

16:16

person that I deserve. love, that

16:18

I deserve inclusion, that I deserve

16:20

to be looked at as where

16:23

are the in general? And that's

16:25

all of those stories from my

16:27

childhood. Ultimately, Led

16:29

to that. And. To.

16:32

Be com the adult that I am

16:34

right now. Meant. That I

16:36

had to go back to those

16:38

younger versions of me And. Correct.

16:41

A lot of the things that the adults

16:43

at the time it didn't even tend to

16:45

like. I discovered so much that I went

16:47

through that I. I think I just

16:49

buried it and it was all on top of each

16:51

other because it was like. I

16:54

was unaware that it was that. My

16:56

life. That's my normal. So yeah, during

16:59

those years of living far away from

17:01

my parents are really internal. I've a

17:03

feeling of. I'm. Responsible

17:05

for my own safety, For

17:08

my own protection. I'm responsible

17:10

for. Whatever. It is that

17:12

happens to me and I never felt like I

17:14

had a strong back home that I could fall

17:16

back on. Oh

17:19

that's so Chainsaw share. With

17:22

any of that for you

17:24

and we obviously that. Is

17:27

going. They ended create a deep

17:29

sense of instability. And

17:31

dislocation and. A

17:34

lack of belonging. And still have

17:36

those inside feeling sick. To your

17:38

point, you're still. Working out as

17:40

recently as three years ago. still.

17:42

Any of that does it

17:44

create and you any. External

17:47

emotions in responses have he

17:49

battled with was that the

17:51

minute have you battle with

17:54

anger. this can go in

17:56

and that you go out both are good and

17:58

for bad i'm curious how the out Felt

18:01

in your body and in your responses.

18:03

Yeah, I will say

18:06

those emotions that I used to

18:08

label as negative ones Were

18:11

ones that for the longest time I

18:13

didn't allow myself to feel or to

18:15

express because I was conditioned

18:18

To believe that being a good person

18:20

being a good girl meant you

18:23

never ever assumed that a person

18:25

has bad intentions You

18:28

you are always the bigger person You're always

18:30

like I said teachers would bully me

18:32

and my dad would say you know

18:35

that has nothing to do with you Like

18:37

that's them and it's like there

18:39

was always this invitation to

18:41

not allow myself

18:44

to Experience anger

18:46

because it was a negative thing, but

18:48

now I realize there's healthy anger. There's

18:50

healthy resentment There's healthy there's healthy

18:53

ways and it's also healthy to

18:57

Project those feelings outwards. Otherwise, they're

18:59

inside. They're somewhere inside of me

19:01

There's a story about resentment that

19:03

I shared actually in the only

19:05

constant It's interesting to

19:07

me because my parents left the Lebanon this

19:10

morning and it's always an emotional It's

19:12

always a very twisted feeling

19:14

I have because I love them so much and I

19:17

know they love me and I I cried

19:19

writing about this and the only constant because

19:22

there's one line where I say You

19:25

know You can't see me right now that I'm actually

19:27

bawling my eyes out as I'm writing this

19:29

because all I ever really wanted was to

19:31

Just be loved for who I am. I

19:33

love them for who they are. I don't look at

19:35

what choices they make for themselves I

19:37

love you as you are. That's all I've ever

19:40

wanted. So there's one story But

19:42

I refer to in the only constant

19:44

as the airplane story. This

19:46

was back in When

19:51

I had decided I no longer wanted to

19:53

wear the hijab for those who don't know

19:55

Muslim women Many of

19:57

them just that's the traditional cover

20:00

And I didn't see myself that way anymore.

20:02

I changed as a human.

20:05

My value system changed. And

20:07

so I decided I no longer want to wear

20:09

it. And so the first time I brought it

20:11

up to my parents, my dad said, don't even

20:13

think about it. And I

20:16

know my dad is a very open-minded person. I

20:18

knew it wasn't coming from a place of him

20:20

thinking that I needed to wear it. Because I

20:22

remember when I first started wearing it, he said,

20:24

are you sure you want to do this? Like

20:26

I don't really care if you do. So

20:29

and I insisted, I was really young. I was like

20:31

13. So fast forward to

20:34

me being 27 years old and I'm saying

20:36

I don't want to wear this anymore. I

20:40

knew that he was worried about me,

20:42

but he didn't use those words. So

20:44

months go by, I stuck to my

20:46

decision. I really wanted to move forward

20:48

with it. And I was hard set

20:50

on it. And

20:53

my mom calls me and she says, your dad wants to talk

20:55

to you. So I said, if

20:58

something happens and I'm not comfortable, I reserve

21:00

the right to get up and leave. At

21:03

that point, another thing I had done was to

21:05

move out of my parents' home before being married,

21:07

which is a big thing in our culture. So

21:10

I go visit. We sit at opposite

21:13

ends of the couch. My dad is

21:15

extremely, extremely stoic. I can count on

21:17

my fingers the number of

21:19

times in my life that we had

21:22

that emotional connection. So

21:24

he starts talking very gently and he says,

21:26

you know, when you first told me about

21:28

your decision, I was really worried

21:30

because you'd been wearing it for so long. And

21:33

out of the blue, you said you don't want

21:35

to. And I worried about you. I

21:37

thought like, what's happening? Is she

21:39

having an identity crisis? And he said,

21:41

and you just started

21:43

writing and you made your name in

21:46

the world as a writer who looks

21:48

a certain way. And he said, I

21:50

don't want people to think that you

21:52

are shaky in your identity, that you

21:55

don't know who you are. He's like,

21:57

it's just like when an

21:59

airplane is. taking off, it's very

22:01

important during the takeoff that it's

22:03

steady and straight and it doesn't

22:06

make any big changes in the

22:08

direction or the whatever. And

22:10

then he goes, but then I really thought

22:13

about it and I realized that you're no

22:15

longer just taking off. You're already up there

22:17

in the sky. You know who you are.

22:20

You know what your values are.

22:22

So I trust you in whatever decisions you

22:24

make for yourself. And I sat there. Wow, I

22:26

have a goose bump. So I did not express that story to

22:28

go that way. Right. I

22:31

cried a lot, Jen, I'm not gonna lie.

22:34

I was really, really moved

22:37

by, you know,

22:39

my extremely stoic father's ability

22:41

to express himself in that way

22:43

and to me specifically. And I

22:46

spent some time like really honoring that

22:48

moment. I still do, but something weird

22:51

happened after that that had never happened

22:53

up to that point. It

22:55

was this resentment that bubbles up from

22:57

within me that said, why

23:00

on earth do I always have to

23:02

work so hard to

23:05

get a moment like this? Why

23:07

do I have to make a decision

23:10

for myself, get all the opposition in

23:12

the world and have to

23:14

stick to the decision myself and get

23:16

through it alone and be made to

23:18

feel like something's wrong with me and

23:20

like I'm being excluded. And then when

23:22

I finally just get to a

23:24

point where I've made the decision, I've moved

23:26

forward with it. I'm at peace with myself

23:28

and with my decision. That's when

23:32

they come back in and say like

23:35

these beautiful things that I would have

23:37

wanted to hear at the beginning.

23:39

This resentment came up and

23:42

I couldn't, like I

23:44

sat there with myself and I'm like, is

23:46

this what people refer

23:48

to when they say like, you become

23:51

like so full of yourself and you're

23:53

so arrogant and People's feelings

23:55

don't mean anything. Like I Started

23:57

judging myself for a few moments.

24:00

Sure how many times that down

24:02

your whole life so that ah.

24:05

So. I just I

24:07

sat with myself with that resentment

24:09

and I remember just. Writing

24:12

a letter to. To.

24:15

The resentment and. explaining.

24:18

What Is it that? Led.

24:21

Me to pilot up for

24:24

so many years. And what

24:26

purpose? It serves me.

24:28

What? Purpose does it serve for you? It's

24:31

protected. Me is is it gives

24:33

a sigh. Carried. That feeling

24:36

of resentment without doing anything to

24:38

change the situation. If I left

24:40

it at feeling resentful, Better than

24:42

that meant that I didn't express

24:45

myself in a way that could

24:47

lead me to lose the bond

24:49

I have with someone for the

24:51

connection I have with someone. So

24:54

the resentment served as the. Kind.

24:57

Of like a buffer to keeping

24:59

those connections and place. But.

25:01

It was only hurting me and I

25:03

also was not presenting myself as authentically

25:05

as I possibly could. In

25:08

those connections. Summer.

25:11

Is coming and so is my

25:13

much anticipated. Me Camp: The past few

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allergies. Astapro and go. I'd

27:20

like to talk about what

27:22

it was like for you. It's

27:25

a pretty big deal to move to Canada

27:27

at age 16. It's such

27:29

a precarious age

27:32

and having already

27:35

experienced a

27:37

childhood where you felt excluded

27:39

in many cases and

27:42

kind of abandoned really and overlooked,

27:45

not seen, not heard, not loved. And

27:47

then a complete sea

27:49

change to another country where

27:52

your family, a lot of your family was

27:54

already established and so their trial along along

27:56

I can imagine with their relationships

27:58

that they had created. It it in

28:00

their life that they had filled and

28:03

then you hop in. The language is

28:05

every the audience across the board. I

28:07

I'd love to hear about that transition

28:10

that. Change and was sacked created

28:12

inside of you to because all

28:14

of this ultimately became words on

28:16

a page that you know years

28:18

in a powerful. Way and so how

28:21

did that season of your life matter? Season

28:26

of My Life Matters. Because.

28:30

It. Was. Been. Seven years.

28:33

Between me arriving here and

28:36

need beginning to write again.

28:39

Like I said, I'm in. I'm in Black and

28:41

White. What that meant to me was I lived

28:43

in survival mode. I just followed the rules. Of

28:45

everyone around me, I know for a

28:47

fact that. They're sheltering. I

28:50

experience from my family was

28:52

extremely protective. I know it

28:54

wasn't that they aim to.

28:57

Stop. Me from having

28:59

experiences. Or that they didn't trust me

29:01

with more. Like we know the world more than

29:03

you do So. You're you're going

29:05

to be very sheltered. So I

29:07

I wasn't allowed to go out

29:10

in the evenings or go out

29:12

and socialize. It was a very

29:14

isolating experience. Oh, is just schoolwork.

29:16

schoolwork schoolwork and I went to

29:18

University right away. I was always

29:20

a high achiever and. I only

29:22

in cook time where three four

29:24

years. Literally. Realized.

29:27

That. That was aside from my worse,

29:29

that's all it ever was. Of

29:31

course. Yeah. So maybe if

29:33

I get these high grades my parents will

29:35

look at me with cry on. The only

29:38

one of my family. Who.

29:40

Went. As far as I didn't school I have

29:42

my doctrine. Education. I just graduated two

29:44

years ago. I'm the only one of

29:47

my family who you know and such

29:49

a young age I I really. Have

29:51

made a name for myself where

29:53

I know I help million people

29:55

worldwide. When. Somebody asks

29:58

me. who

30:00

do you think you are? Those aren't the things

30:02

that I go to. It's like,

30:04

I forget all the things I've accomplished and

30:06

I really have this existential

30:09

crisis of, it's

30:11

like I've been taught that

30:13

if I take pride in my

30:16

accomplishments, that means I'm a bad

30:18

person. Well,

30:21

during those years, I just, it

30:23

felt like everyone

30:25

around me was so much ahead

30:27

of me in life. My brothers

30:29

and sisters were, my sisters were

30:31

married when I was extremely young.

30:34

My brothers got married, everyone's married,

30:37

they have their careers, they're done

30:39

school. Meanwhile, I'm following in

30:41

the footsteps that I think I need to

30:44

follow in. So I just followed the rules,

30:46

never really knew who I was. I can

30:48

tell you the reason I worked so hard

30:50

was that if there was ever a moment

30:52

that I wasn't working towards something, I

30:55

would sit there and be like, I would be

30:57

agitated. I need something to

30:59

make me feel like I'm actually

31:02

accomplishing something in my life.

31:04

So during those years, being

31:07

sheltered and being led down

31:09

a certain path, like

31:11

these are the rules you need to follow.

31:15

You hang out with those

31:17

people, you go to school for

31:19

this program, you get these grades,

31:21

you display these manners, you're just

31:23

a good part of this family and you're

31:26

gonna reflect well on us in front of

31:28

everybody. I never really

31:30

experienced joy and I never really

31:33

experienced like deep sadness. It was

31:35

more like I was always numb.

31:39

I was always aware that I wasn't really

31:42

living. Like I would look at everybody else

31:44

around me and I would see them experience

31:46

certain things and I knew deep within

31:49

my soul, that's not for me. So

31:52

those years, I

31:54

think what they served is like, when a

31:57

seed stays in the ground for a really

31:59

long time. time, like it's dormant

32:01

before it starts growing

32:04

into something. That's it.

32:06

It needs like, it needs some kind

32:08

of a catalyst. And the catalyst for

32:10

me, sadly, was seeing

32:14

suffering in other people.

32:18

That was my catalyst to start

32:21

writing and helping

32:23

them see the value that they have.

32:26

And that's what led me to realize

32:28

that I needed to do that for

32:30

my 16 year old self. And then in

32:32

the most recent years, I realized I had to

32:34

go further back than that,

32:37

from that 16 year old person.

32:39

So during those years, I

32:42

was in a dormant phase and survival

32:44

mode. But I was also forming my

32:48

view of what I was allowed and

32:50

wasn't allowed to do with my life,

32:53

how I was allowed to live and how I

32:55

wasn't allowed to live. And it's only been in

32:58

the last four or five years

33:00

of my life where I've realized that

33:03

if the only reason I'm living my

33:05

life a certain way is to

33:07

be looked at by certain people as

33:11

she's a good person, I'm still sacrificing

33:13

myself. I still don't know who I

33:15

am. I still don't know how I

33:17

want to live my life. So

33:20

really, that period of my life, I

33:22

think, served as a reference

33:25

point for me to reflect back on

33:27

every time that I'm like, oh, there's

33:30

this area that I need to explore.

33:32

Because during those years, I learned things

33:34

about this that I know now aren't

33:36

true. I want to talk

33:38

to you a little bit about writing

33:40

and what words have meant to you.

33:42

You've talked about finding solace

33:45

in poetry, in

33:47

journaling, the stories from your father's

33:49

bookshelves. You zeroed it out

33:51

there for seven years. I'd like

33:53

to hear you talk about your

33:56

discovery of language and

33:59

words and how they, well,

34:01

I won't put words in your mouth. You tell me what they

34:04

became to you, what poetry became to

34:06

you, because then I wanna pick

34:08

that back up later because of course now this

34:11

is your life's work. You

34:13

are now building a life out of

34:15

meaningful words. And so can you

34:18

talk about the onset of that sort of

34:20

the origin story? And then let's

34:22

fast forward because you just mentioned your

34:24

students, but this is a

34:26

part of your story I really wanna

34:29

hear more about. So my earliest memories

34:31

of exposure to language was with my

34:33

grandma who was no longer

34:35

with us. She passed away in 2007. It

34:39

was the year after I fully moved to Canada.

34:42

And where we lived in Lebanon, our

34:44

home was the family home. So my

34:47

grandma, my dad's mom lived with us.

34:49

And Lebanon, where we

34:51

lived, it was a very peaceful

34:53

life. So part of

34:55

that experience was that we didn't

34:57

have power for half

34:59

the day. So it was

35:02

four hours on, four hours off. So it

35:04

was every other night that you had power.

35:06

So that meant every other night

35:08

you had access to TV and

35:10

every other night you didn't. So I remember

35:13

sitting with my grandma

35:15

on our balcony or

35:17

next to the fireplace if it was

35:19

winter time and she would just tell

35:21

me stories of the

35:24

prophets or stories

35:26

that she heard from her mom

35:28

to stories that had meaningful

35:30

lessons. We also lived

35:33

right next to a mosque. And

35:35

for those who don't know, the call to prayer

35:38

comes out five times a day. And in

35:40

certain parts of the world, if the majority of

35:43

the population in the area is Muslim, right

35:45

before that call to prayer, they will

35:47

play a few verses from the Quran.

35:49

And the Quran is

35:52

extremely poetic, like extremely poetic.

35:54

There's a lot of play

35:57

on words and I would share it in

35:59

Arabic. the Arabic language

36:01

is extremely powerful in

36:03

the weight of the words. So

36:07

my grandma would explain certain things

36:09

to me and there's a lot

36:12

of verses on patience and being

36:14

a good person and expressing

36:17

yourself to people in a better way

36:19

than they express themselves to you and

36:21

just always being pure hearted. So I

36:24

would hear that and then when

36:26

I would get into the car with my dad, he

36:29

would have songs by like

36:31

really old singers who back

36:34

in the day they sang

36:36

poetry like it was

36:38

so huge to have a poet

36:40

who's really well known right of 15

36:43

minutes song for you or a whole hour song

36:45

and so my dad had that on all the

36:48

time. So I would listen to words and then

36:50

my dad had a whole wall in our

36:52

house from, you know, from

36:55

the top of the wall to

36:57

the ground. It was just books upon books. I

37:00

would sit on the floor, grab any book, had a

37:02

lot of like history books, philosophy books, poetry books. And

37:05

again, the Arabic language is

37:07

extremely poetic. So I would read

37:10

poetry. I would read history. I would

37:12

read fiction. And

37:14

my dad was really good at just

37:16

always buying me books. And so that

37:19

was my first exposure. And

37:22

then in school, because

37:24

I attended also an Islamic school,

37:26

which it's really interesting how that

37:28

kind of propelled my

37:31

journey into writing like the

37:33

poeticness. But at

37:35

the same time, I'm discovering so

37:37

much conditioning that there are layers

37:39

that I've shed from that education.

37:43

But the one beautiful thing that

37:45

I carried on was the

37:47

poetry, the strong meaning

37:50

that words can hold and the power

37:52

that words can hold. So

37:54

I would have these classes where certain

37:56

verses would be explained and it was

37:59

like breathing. to me to

38:02

hear words being like

38:04

talked about, about their history

38:06

and where they came from and when

38:08

they were first used. And so

38:11

when the time came for

38:13

me to start

38:16

writing about my own story and my

38:18

own suffering, my own experience, it

38:21

literally felt like this

38:23

was something I'd known how to do for

38:26

the last hundred years.

38:28

Like it didn't feel like I

38:31

had to sit and learn. People get shocked

38:33

when they know that I did my undergrad

38:35

in science. I didn't take

38:37

language. I took a couple

38:40

of language courses, but I

38:43

didn't take anything that taught me

38:45

how to write. So spending time

38:48

being exposed to the language and also

38:51

being able to hear

38:53

the music that was coupled

38:55

with the poetry and just

38:57

getting that, not

38:59

just a feeling of being heard,

39:02

but also a feeling of, wow,

39:04

like I can express myself that

39:06

way. That really

39:08

built me as a writer

39:10

over the years. And I didn't see

39:12

myself that way. Even after I published my

39:15

first book, I didn't

39:17

see myself as a writer because to me it

39:19

was like, this is just who I am. This

39:21

is how I think. Totally. And

39:24

so when you moved to Canada

39:26

and you hung up your pen for seven

39:29

years, did you miss it? Did you

39:31

miss it? Did you miss writing? Did you, or

39:34

were you in such a survival

39:36

space that you couldn't even access

39:38

the things that you loved? I

39:40

was really in that survival space

39:43

where I don't remember missing writing.

39:46

I remember actually actively

39:48

avoiding being in that space.

39:51

The closest I got to it was

39:53

listening to music that helped me feel

39:56

like I was heard and seen, but that was it.

39:58

So let's... fast forward

40:00

then seven years later, when

40:03

you say, I had my first

40:06

group of students. So these were

40:08

specific students, students that you understood,

40:10

students whose stories made sense to

40:12

you. And so let's

40:15

pick it up there with both this

40:17

new space in your

40:19

life. And then

40:22

also the onboarding of writing

40:24

again. So

40:27

these students were refugees from

40:30

Libya, the war had just broken out

40:32

there, they came, they didn't speak a

40:34

word of English, there were eight of

40:36

them. And it was my first year

40:38

of teaching. And I remember exactly where

40:40

we were standing in the hallway of the

40:43

school where the principal

40:45

said to me, these kids are your responsibility for

40:47

the year, you're going to teach them the

40:49

language, you're going to teach them everything about

40:52

life in Canada and in the

40:54

Canadian classroom. And I remember just looking

40:57

at them and they're just, they're looking

40:59

up like I

41:01

had a feeling like they were

41:04

saying, save us.

41:06

Of course, how old were they more

41:09

or less? They ranged from grade two

41:11

to grade eight. So

41:14

there was a whole range of them,

41:16

almost every grade in between. And all

41:19

over from all over the world. So

41:22

all of them were from Libya, they were two

41:25

families. Yes, there was one

41:27

family of two and then the

41:29

rest were all part of another

41:31

family. And the oldest one in

41:33

particular, the grade eight student, I, you

41:36

know, I still keep in touch, her

41:38

name is Tess Neem. She is so

41:40

intelligent. And the struggle she

41:43

had was that she

41:45

was always the top of her class back

41:47

home. And now she was in this place

41:49

where she didn't understand the language. She

41:51

couldn't prove to her teacher that she was

41:53

really good at math. She

41:56

couldn't really prove that she was

41:58

good at language or that she was good

42:00

at writing because she wasn't being tested

42:02

in the language that she knew. And

42:06

so I resonated with her

42:08

experience quite a bit because I felt

42:10

like I knew so much about

42:12

life. I knew so much about feeling. I

42:15

knew so much about the right way that

42:17

things could be, but I felt like because

42:19

I was so young, who's going to listen

42:21

to me? And so that

42:23

fight to prove that I know things,

42:25

I resonated with that with her. And

42:29

so sitting down every

42:31

day, seeing those kids go through

42:33

these experiences where they were

42:35

being treated very

42:38

visibly, like differently from

42:40

everybody else, I

42:42

was like the activist. I stepped

42:44

into that role to advocate for

42:47

them, to make sure

42:49

that no one hurt them in

42:51

any way, that no one treated them as

42:53

less than other people. And

42:57

like I said, I was doing that

42:59

to myself, to younger versions of me

43:01

without being aware, but it clicked one

43:03

day, that that's what I was

43:06

doing. So seeing

43:08

them every single day and holding

43:10

the emotions that they had coming

43:14

into school and leaving school and throughout

43:16

the day woke

43:18

me up to the fact

43:20

that education never really was

43:23

about learning facts. Like

43:25

you are looking at human beings and

43:27

you are, it's your

43:30

responsibility to make

43:32

sure that they are treated fairly

43:34

and justly and that they are

43:38

equipped with all the tools to be

43:40

able to reach whatever it is that

43:42

they want. It's not just about grades.

43:45

It's not just, so it transformed me

43:47

as an educator, but also transformed

43:49

me as a human.

43:51

So when I started writing these short

43:53

snippets to inspire them and other

43:57

reflection on my day with them, I was sharing

43:59

that with you. them on a blog and

44:01

then you know here and there

44:03

I would share them on my Facebook page and

44:05

it's so funny to look at now because like

44:07

some posts have like three likes you know and

44:10

somebody would look at that now and

44:12

be like really like wow but

44:15

then I had certain teachers and certain parents

44:17

say like we love those writings we

44:19

just wish they were all in one

44:21

place and so that's when I was like

44:23

okay maybe all self-published I had no

44:25

knowledge of the publishing world

44:28

I was doing my master's in education

44:30

at the time I didn't think I'm

44:33

a writer but I took that step

44:36

and yeah and the rest is history

44:38

now my sixth book just came out

44:42

yeah I mean that's

44:44

quite a leap from the

44:47

self-published book

44:49

of writings that got three

44:51

likes on Facebook to what

44:53

you have now and you

44:55

have built not just a

44:57

writing career you've built a community you

45:00

have built a space online that

45:03

is gotta be beyond

45:06

what you could have

45:08

imagined the scope of your influence

45:10

the scope frankly of your leadership

45:12

I know poets don't like to

45:14

say think of it in terms

45:16

of leadership poets are poets but

45:18

it is leadership and you are

45:20

leading people toward their own healing

45:22

process toward their own sense

45:25

of reclaiming autonomy and

45:27

I'd like to hear writer

45:29

to writer how

45:32

that felt and what

45:35

happened from a self-published

45:37

first book how did this catch

45:40

how did how did you catch this lightning in a

45:42

bottle it

45:46

was social media I

45:48

remember the first few months

45:50

I sold like a few hundred

45:53

copies of my first book Mind Flatter

45:55

and then I remember one day waking

45:58

up and I had like ten thousand new followers.

46:00

And I was like, well, where did this come

46:02

from? I think at

46:04

the time, Leanne Rimes had

46:06

shared a page from my

46:08

book. And Lisa

46:11

Rinna, who's one of the Real

46:13

Housewives of, she

46:15

also shared a page from my book.

46:17

And then Hilary Swank

46:20

followed me and, and

46:22

I sent her a copy of the book. So it was like,

46:25

it felt like it

46:27

was meant to happen because

46:29

it happened organically. And

46:32

all I needed to do was

46:35

put the writings out there. And, and as

46:37

long as people read them, they were going

46:39

to share them with the people that they

46:41

cared about or that they thought this, this

46:43

would resonate with this person. And it

46:46

just, over time, it just

46:48

snowballed. And that's

46:51

when I started taking things more and more

46:53

seriously. And I remember when

46:55

I first got contacted by a publisher, the

46:59

first offer that they sent me, I

47:01

remember laughing at it because I

47:04

was making more money per month than

47:06

their offer. And

47:09

it just, with

47:11

time and up to this point, I'm like, wow,

47:14

I was really good at what I was doing. You know,

47:17

it was just, I feel like it was meant to

47:19

be. And I know some people

47:21

don't like to hear that, but that

47:24

is my power. It's writing. My

47:28

son just got married, which meant trying out a

47:30

lot of dresses. And I told you I was

47:32

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47:35

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Rosetta stone.com. I'd like to see. Here

50:00

you talk about the

50:03

internal work you had to do

50:06

in order to step into

50:10

your own agency. You've talked about how

50:12

that was just something withheld from you,

50:14

really your whole life. You just did

50:16

not have autonomy. You didn't. You

50:19

didn't have independence. So much was

50:21

out of your control, virtually everything.

50:24

The adults in your life made decisions for

50:26

you with or without your input

50:28

or whatever. And

50:31

so this idea that all of a sudden,

50:33

as a young adult, I mean, you were

50:35

in your 20s, all

50:37

of a sudden you are working

50:41

from a place of clear autonomy. I

50:43

mean, even mentioning moving out of your

50:45

parents' house, which was a cultural break

50:48

from the norm. So I

50:50

just like to hear that whole thing because

50:53

nobody could do that for you except for

50:55

you. There's not enough external validation to make

50:58

that all work. I know even

51:00

though that is a temporary solve, it won't

51:02

do the deep stuff. So what

51:04

was that process like for you? Yeah, I

51:07

was having a conversation with my friend,

51:10

Safan, not too long ago where he

51:12

said to me, I honestly don't think

51:14

you realize what

51:16

you've been through in your life. He's like, I

51:18

look at your life as an outsider. And I

51:21

think, wow, she

51:23

moved out. She took her hijab

51:25

off. She wrote a book

51:28

and another book and another book and

51:30

another book and another book. She changed

51:33

her whole career path. She stood

51:35

up against a whole community of

51:37

people who were trying to bring

51:39

her down for speaking her truth. He's like,

51:42

I really don't think you realize how much

51:44

courage you have. And I

51:46

remember when he said that to me, I

51:48

started crying because to me,

51:54

there was no other choice in

51:57

those moments. It was always. I'm

52:00

either gonna do this thing or

52:02

I'm gonna completely suffocate. I can't

52:04

exist in this environment anymore with

52:07

this reality. It felt like I

52:09

got to a point where it was my breaking point

52:12

at every single point

52:14

where I made these really big decisions

52:16

when really, and I reflected about this a

52:19

lot and the only constant is I

52:21

always had a choice. It was just

52:23

easier for me to say, this

52:26

is the only choice I have to

52:28

not own my decision because I thought

52:31

owning it meant that I'm

52:34

admitting what the

52:36

accusations from the outer world was.

52:38

So to me, it was like, no, I had to

52:40

do this. I had to do it for

52:42

my own survival, but it's like, no,

52:44

Nezul, you chose the right thing for

52:47

yourself, own it.

52:50

So I think what happened, because I

52:52

worked a lot with my therapist, I

52:54

worked with a somatic therapist on

52:57

just tuning in and understanding what

52:59

it was. And we isolated

53:01

that what it

53:04

was that was present at

53:07

every single moment when I made a big

53:09

decision like that for my life was

53:12

my inner wisdom, my

53:14

authenticity stepping forward and

53:16

saying, I'm taking the lead right now.

53:19

It was my inner knowing of what

53:21

was right for me, my inner trust

53:24

of what was right for me. And it

53:26

was like, that was a non-negotiable thing.

53:28

I wasn't willing to sit

53:31

with anybody and negotiate certain things

53:33

about my life, which is weird

53:36

because my whole life,

53:39

I look at myself as a people

53:41

pleaser. I look at myself as somebody

53:43

who's like, I can't handle disappointing someone.

53:45

I can't handle disappointing my family. I

53:47

can't, but it got to

53:49

a point where I

53:51

was definitely willing to do

53:54

that because I

53:56

knew that any other path, I was

53:58

so aware. that continuing

54:00

to live my life in a certain

54:03

way meant that

54:05

I was gonna be suffering so much

54:07

and I wasn't willing to suffer in

54:09

that way. I

54:11

read something you wrote, I think it was on

54:13

Instagram, but you said

54:15

something like, this

54:18

is a terrible paraphrase, I'm so sorry. It's okay,

54:20

it's okay. Fix it at will, but something like,

54:23

let your world revolve around you because

54:25

if it doesn't, it will end up

54:27

revolving around everyone else. And I thought,

54:29

oh my God, that's how it

54:31

works. You said it exactly right. Did I?

54:34

Yes, you did. As such a

54:37

powerful truth, and

54:39

as girls and women,

54:43

I mean, even though you and I were raised

54:45

in two different cultures, I for sure got the

54:47

message that my life was not supposed to revolve

54:49

around me. That was

54:52

selfish and that was

54:54

myopic, that wasn't for the greater good,

54:56

but the truth is it actually is for

54:58

the greater good because

55:00

when we are operating

55:02

authentically and living

55:05

out of that deep sense of

55:07

truth and what is

55:09

right and what is good, that's good for everyone around

55:11

us. It's better for

55:13

them, frankly, than whatever version of

55:15

ourself when we are just contorting

55:17

to everyone's expectations. And

55:19

so I would like to hear

55:22

you talk before we go about

55:24

The Only Constant. This is your most

55:26

recent book. And

55:28

tell us about it. And how

55:30

is this one unique? What about this

55:33

one do you love the most? And what are you

55:35

hoping that your readers get

55:37

to walk away with? Yeah,

55:39

so let your

55:41

world revolve around you. It's actually

55:43

one of the sections in The

55:45

Only Constant that I wrote about.

55:47

And another one is be the

55:49

center of your attention. To

55:52

me, The Only Constant represents

55:55

not only an invitation to

55:58

come back to yourself. That was also... an

56:00

invitation and welcome home. The

56:02

only constant is also about

56:05

inviting you to

56:08

navigate your way in the world

56:10

where you know that

56:12

based on your actions, the people

56:14

around you are going to react a certain

56:17

way. They're going to resist your

56:19

growth. One other point is

56:21

don't negotiate your change with people who want you

56:23

to stay the same. Let

56:26

go of past versions of you

56:28

that hold you to

56:30

an inauthentic version or to

56:33

an inauthentic reality of yours. To me,

56:35

the only constant is about not only

56:37

learning to navigate a change that happens

56:39

to you or the change that you

56:42

choose or a change that you need

56:44

to make in order to live an authentic

56:46

life, but it's also about how do you

56:49

stick to that change and how do you

56:51

make it with conviction and how do you

56:53

navigate going on a path

56:55

that you've never navigated before and trusting

56:58

in your ability to get through

57:01

it? How do you navigate the

57:03

uncertainty? How do you navigate the

57:05

fear? How do you look

57:07

at yourself as the leader of

57:09

your life? The most empowering

57:12

message that I hope

57:15

if a person walks away with anything after

57:17

they read the only constant, it's this.

57:21

It is true that life is constantly

57:23

changing. The only constant in life is

57:25

change, but there is

57:27

one truth that the only constant in

57:30

your life is you. You are the

57:32

person who's been with you since the

57:34

moment you were born. So if there's

57:37

one person whose experience you should sit

57:39

with and have compassion for, it's yourself.

57:42

If there's one person who you need to believe

57:44

in, it's yourself. If there's one

57:46

person that you need to trust in

57:48

leading you to a certain destination, it's

57:51

you. And if there's one person that you need

57:54

to give grace to when they

57:56

mess up, when they get to the wrong

57:58

destination, they need to make a change. change,

58:00

they need to take a detour, whatever it

58:02

is, it's you. If

58:04

there's one person that you need to say,

58:08

you know what, we're going to

58:10

work on you right now. We're

58:12

not going to work on trying to change how

58:15

everybody else thinks of you. It's

58:17

you. So to

58:19

me, the only constant is

58:21

a guide to navigating those

58:24

three big types of changes. Changes we don't

58:26

choose, changes we choose, and changes we need

58:29

to make. And how

58:32

do we actually transform our entire

58:34

life into one where change

58:37

is not only something that we

58:39

have to deal with, but something

58:41

that we choose for ourselves, something

58:43

that we celebrate, something that we say,

58:47

this is something that I actually enjoy.

58:50

Yeah. So good.

58:53

So powerful. There's nobody in

58:56

the whole world for whom that

58:58

doesn't apply. No one. Every

59:00

one of us will experience change by

59:03

choice, by force, by necessity,

59:05

picket, but all of them. So

59:08

this is timely, just

59:10

such a good message. I'm so

59:12

delighted that you keep

59:15

putting your gifts into the world because it's a

59:18

labor. It's a labor. It's not just a labor of writing

59:21

and tasking, and it's an

59:23

emotional labor because you dig

59:25

deep for all of this. And this comes

59:28

out of your lived experience, which

59:31

is a lift, sometimes a really

59:33

heavy lift to go back into to

59:36

parse out for your community and for your readers.

59:38

And so I see that and I understand that

59:42

cost and I'm

59:44

grateful that you are

59:47

courageous enough to continue to do it. So

59:50

will you just tell my folks before

59:52

you sign off, where's the best places

59:54

to find you, to follow you, to get

59:56

a hold of everything you've written, all of

59:58

that. Thank you. The first I

1:00:00

just wanna say you are so kind

1:00:02

and I really appreciate you taking the

1:00:05

time to speak to me And I

1:00:07

also really appreciate the work that you

1:00:09

are putting out into the world because

1:00:11

it's. Very. Very necessary and I

1:00:13

see. The millions of

1:00:15

lives that you've definitely change so

1:00:18

I hope you are proud and

1:00:20

kill people can find me. Wherever.

1:00:23

They are on social media. My handle

1:00:25

is at Nas was a the and.

1:00:28

He. Can find the only constant wherever books

1:00:30

are sold them. You can probably find so

1:00:32

many of my videos wherever you look for

1:00:34

them. So if you feel like anything helps

1:00:37

you, if you like my voice you can

1:00:39

listen to the books as an audio in

1:00:41

my voice and yeah and I hope it

1:00:43

changes your life. Save

1:00:45

our round all that up for you

1:00:48

in one spot of hurdling capsule everything

1:00:50

for your one stop shop of a

1:00:52

very left for said everybody gets this

1:00:54

every guest, every series against or however

1:00:56

you want There's what you can answer

1:00:59

it sincerely and earnestly or just outrageously

1:01:01

an absurdly and it's dealer's choice at

1:01:03

bar this question from a pre sale

1:01:05

of and she said. What?

1:01:07

Is saving your life right now. You.

1:01:11

Know the first answer that came

1:01:13

as soon as he finished that

1:01:15

question one me. Me:

1:01:18

My authenticity. It's.

1:01:20

Not easy. Because.

1:01:23

I feel that. With

1:01:25

the awareness of your work.

1:01:28

And. The awareness of the kind of life

1:01:30

that you know you want to live in.

1:01:32

You deserve to live. You.

1:01:35

Will become extremely sensitive.

1:01:37

To environments and people that don't serve

1:01:39

the back. Which means you're going ago.

1:01:42

I had a bit of emotional turmoil

1:01:44

and you might be made to feel.

1:01:47

Like. That means something is wrong with you.

1:01:49

Why are you reacting so much? Go.

1:01:51

Back to yourself and

1:01:53

actually think. That part of

1:01:55

you that is saying. This. Is

1:01:58

not for us. So. I feel for. that's

1:02:00

what I'm going through right now.

1:02:02

That is good. That is

1:02:04

a strong ending. Perfect.

1:02:07

All right. Well, I am just cheering

1:02:09

for you and I hope this is

1:02:11

your most successful book yet, that it goes far

1:02:13

and wide. I'm so excited to put it in

1:02:15

the hands of my readers and my community. And

1:02:17

just thanks for your time today. Your time

1:02:19

is so valuable and I'm so grateful to

1:02:22

have spent an hour with you. I just

1:02:24

am going to be thinking about so many

1:02:26

things you said for so

1:02:28

long. So thanks for

1:02:30

being here. So kind. Aww, thank

1:02:32

you for having me. All

1:02:45

right, you guys. Didn't I tell you

1:02:47

like they're kind of at the grand finale

1:02:49

when she was talking about change and being

1:02:51

the leader of our own lives and trusting

1:02:53

her. I'm like, I wanted

1:02:55

to wave my hanky. Like there it is.

1:02:57

Like that's it. That is

1:02:59

it. Really powerful

1:03:02

lessons from a really

1:03:04

truly lived life. And I

1:03:06

always trust storytellers who

1:03:08

have lived it. Didn't just

1:03:11

learn about it. Right. So

1:03:13

as promised, if you go to jenhatmaker.com

1:03:15

under the podcast tab, I'll

1:03:17

have this whole episode. This is a good one to

1:03:19

share, but I will round up

1:03:21

for you everything Nejwa related all

1:03:23

of her socials links to

1:03:26

her books and her

1:03:28

academy and her podcast, just everything.

1:03:30

So you can find everything in

1:03:33

one place and looking forward to

1:03:35

hearing back from you on this one and

1:03:37

what you are learning and how this, how these

1:03:39

types of lessons are finding you at your

1:03:41

stage of life. We always love your feedback.

1:03:43

We read everything that you say, every

1:03:47

comment that you make on any

1:03:49

given episode, what you say

1:03:51

in ratings and reviews. Thank you for doing

1:03:53

those for the show. Those matter. And they

1:03:55

mean so much to us and we pay

1:03:57

attention. So we are to

1:04:00

serve you and I hope that you are loving this

1:04:02

series on change as much as I am. It's moved

1:04:04

me truly and meant a lot

1:04:06

to me right now and so thanks

1:04:09

for being here you guys. We sure do love you and

1:04:11

we'll see you next week.

1:04:23

Before the Love podcast with Jen

1:04:25

Hatmaker is a presentation of Odyssey

1:04:27

and produced by Four Eyes Media

1:04:30

with Laura Knightling, producer, Abby Stevens,

1:04:32

production director, Gregory DiMario, production assistant,

1:04:34

and Lauren Winfield, researcher. Odyssey's

1:04:37

executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Burman

1:04:40

and Leah Rees-Dennis. Special

1:04:43

thanks to the team at

1:04:45

Odyssey, Maura Curran, Melissa Wester,

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1:04:59

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1:05:10

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