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1:39

today. Hello

1:51

and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast

1:53

about the things we do to take

1:55

care of ourselves. I'm Dori Schaffreer. And

1:58

I'm Elise Hugh and we We are

2:00

just two friends who like to talk a lot

2:02

about serums and other things. And

2:05

other things, but also

2:07

serums. So

2:10

we're going to kind of check in with

2:12

each other before we introduce our guests, but

2:15

I wanted to just start, Elise, by reading

2:17

a text that we got. Okay.

2:20

Okay. This is what this person wrote.

2:23

I'm loving Elise as the new summer

2:25

co-host, but there's

2:28

a bug. Oh no. But

2:31

I have a request slash note.

2:34

Okay. It would be great

2:36

to have more aimless banter

2:38

and general catching up between

2:40

co-hosts before jumping to listen

2:42

questions or interviews. We

2:44

are still getting to know Elise and hearing her

2:46

casually chat with Dory is the greatest way for

2:49

us to get to know her better. What

2:51

is her favorite morning routine? Is she a

2:53

coffee person? Does she free

2:55

mug? Inquiring minds

2:58

must know the more we know her, the more

3:00

we will love her, the more we will keep

3:02

coming back for what we all crave. A

3:04

good chat between friends. Thank you for

3:07

this podcast. Love that.

3:09

And thank you for that text. The

3:12

gauntlet has been thrown, Elise. Yeah. That

3:15

was a lot of questions. That

3:18

was a whole series of questions. And

3:20

I know free mugging is, um,

3:24

can be a really contentious topic here

3:26

at Forever Yep.

3:29

Yep. You are a no free mugger,

3:31

right? I am a no free

3:33

mugger because I don't trust myself to free

3:35

mug. I rarely

3:37

free mug is the answer to the

3:39

question because I am such a klutz

3:42

that I have dislocated my shoulder just

3:44

from standing on top of a hill.

3:47

I like accidentally slid down the hill and then

3:50

my shoulder fell out. It

3:53

fell out of its socket. Sounds really painful. Oh,

3:55

it was really bad. It was like blinding pain. And

3:58

so that's how klutzy I am. which

4:01

means when I do bring

4:03

something unlitted into my car

4:05

or around just anywhere

4:08

traveling, it's

4:10

likely to spill. The times that

4:12

I free mug are when I cannot

4:14

find the right lids to

4:17

my travel mugs, which happens because you

4:19

end up with such a collection of

4:21

these things over the years that the

4:24

lids are all so specific. Sometimes

4:27

I rush out the door and

4:29

I must confess that I do occasionally

4:31

free mug due to my lack of

4:33

organization, but I generally do not due

4:36

to my lack of grace. Okay.

4:38

How do you feel about

4:40

free plating or free bowling?

4:42

I free bowl occasionally. Yeah.

4:44

Do you really? Yep. All

4:47

right. You got me.

4:49

What do you free bowl? You know

4:52

those pretzel,

4:54

like those peanut butter pretzel nuggets

4:57

from Trader Joe's? Oh yeah. Uh-huh.

4:59

Yes. Those. Okay. That

5:01

to me doesn't feel so like

5:03

out there because it's a snack

5:06

and like if you spilled it,

5:08

it would be annoying but not

5:11

like a full on like

5:13

mess and you're not in danger of

5:15

being burned by hot, a hot liquid.

5:17

I was stopped to the light once and

5:20

I swear the woman in the car next to me

5:23

was eating a bowl of cereal. Oh, see,

5:26

no, no, no, no, no. No liquid in

5:28

a free bowl. Wow. No, no, no, no,

5:30

no. I like, or even spaghetti, I

5:32

wouldn't put like a bowl of pasta, ramen,

5:34

anything like that in a free bowl. Yes.

5:38

Like I understand like sometimes people like you're

5:40

in a rush, you're running out the door,

5:42

you don't have time to eat, you want

5:44

to bring it in the car, but like

5:46

I feel like that's what like granola bars

5:48

are for. Yeah. I feel like free bowling

5:50

liquids, hot liquids is really

5:52

living on the edge. I've

5:55

also seen someone eating a plate of rice. Like,

6:05

again. I mean, I don't judge. I'm

6:08

just- Right.

6:11

And our cars are our sanctuaries. Right.

6:13

Our cars are our sanctuaries. In

6:16

a moving car. But that's the thing. It's not like-

6:19

It's not like if you're parked and you're eating

6:21

a plate of rice, I'm like, okay, that seems

6:23

a little messy, but like you're

6:25

parked. But no, this person was driving.

6:30

That's just a recipe for disaster in my

6:32

world. Literally. So

6:35

the other questions, what

6:38

is your favorite morning routine, Elise? I

6:40

like to be as unburdened

6:42

as possible in the morning. And

6:45

so when I can, well, you know

6:48

this story because I showed up to coffee.

6:50

I met up with Dory yesterday and I

6:52

showed up and I still had like pillow

6:54

line creases on my cheek. I

6:57

didn't notice that. I just noticed your cute overalls.

7:00

I did brush my teeth. I usually like brush my

7:02

teeth and wash my face. You know what's funny, Elise?

7:05

I actually didn't brush my teeth yesterday. I

7:07

forgot. So you did

7:10

my favorite morning routine. I was like, ooh,

7:12

I hope I don't get close enough to

7:14

Elise where she's like, ooh, morning

7:17

breath. I couldn't tell. No. And

7:20

it's like- I usually do

7:23

brush my teeth like 99% of the time. That's

7:26

my main one. Oh, slap on sunscreen.

7:28

Sunscreen before you leave the house. Are

7:32

you a coffee person? We kind of just

7:34

answered that. I am. I will meet for

7:36

coffee. I will meet for coffee. You

7:38

know social smokers? I'm a social coffee

7:40

drinker. I don't make coffee

7:43

in the morning for myself. I drink iced

7:45

green tea. Oh, see, I

7:47

didn't know that. So- I'm a green tea person.

7:49

I'm a big iced tea person. Okay.

7:52

Do you have a particular iced tea

7:54

that is a favorite besides like you

7:57

said green, but like, do you have a brand?

8:00

Yeah. I used to drink a lot of

8:02

Honest Tea because it was just a tad

8:04

sweet. And then

8:06

some big beverage company

8:09

bought it and then discontinued it.

8:11

But the original, I have discovered

8:13

that the original founder of Honest

8:15

Tea has now started another

8:17

tea line called Just Ice

8:20

Tea. Not iced,

8:22

but just ice. I

8:24

see. And it's in

8:26

glass bottles and you can buy it

8:29

at Whole Foods, I think. I buy

8:31

it online. And it is also just

8:33

a tad sweet. So

8:35

it's funny because it's like

8:38

the name of the beverage is iced

8:41

tea. Right. Right. And so when you

8:43

say iced tea, it makes me think

8:46

like that is a name.

8:49

Like the ice is not acting as an

8:51

adjective there or it is, but it's like,

8:54

do you know what I mean? It's like,

8:56

it's like milk tea. Not instead of milky

8:58

tea, it's like milk tea, which is a

9:00

thing. And so this is just like iced

9:02

tea. This is sort

9:04

of like in Hawaii where it's shave ice,

9:07

not shaved ice. Oh, yes, exactly. That's a

9:09

perfect comparison. And it kind of bothers me,

9:11

but that's the, that's what it's called. Right.

9:15

Okay. I have a question for you,

9:18

which is you appear to be wearing a

9:20

puffy jacket. Yes. Something

9:24

that happens in our casual chats, which are

9:26

available on the Patreon, is

9:30

Dory likes to make comments about what I'm wearing.

9:33

It's not comments, it's questions.

9:35

It's questions. On the casual

9:37

chat, Elise was in workout gear. And so I was

9:39

like, did you just work out? It's a legitimate question.

9:42

It was like a cute little workout

9:44

top. Yeah. And, you know, I'm

9:47

a curious person. We're, we're in Los Angeles.

9:49

It's in the 70s. And Elise

9:52

is wearing a puffy jacket. And I just,

9:54

I just wanted some clarity. I turned

9:57

my AC up too high. And

9:59

I hadn't See? See? There was a story. Yep.

10:03

There you go. Okay. So

10:08

you're waiting for your AC to regulate is

10:10

what you're saying. I hope this is the

10:12

aimless banter that the listener

10:14

wanted because

10:16

boy is it aimless. It's

10:20

a nice shade. It's like a purplish gray.

10:22

Thank you. Thank you very much. It has

10:24

a hood. What is that? What is that

10:26

jacket, Elise? Where's it from? This is

10:28

Uniqlo. This is Uniqlo. I was going to

10:31

say. It'll pack down to the side of

10:33

like a little sock. Yep. Love a Uniqlo.

10:37

Very likely. All right. Well,

10:39

the listener, I don't

10:41

think they had any more

10:43

specific questions. All right. But

10:46

you know. And Dory's always here to ask

10:48

the question, what are you wearing? Tell

10:52

me about what you're wearing, Elise.

10:57

Now I'm getting warm. I'm getting warm

10:59

in the hot seat. Yeah.

11:08

I am a coffee drinker and

11:10

I am drinking my

11:13

my scheduled second coffee of the morning.

11:15

Well, I guess it's now the afternoon,

11:17

but it is an iced

11:20

lau- one of the lau-colom triple

11:22

lattes that I pour over ice.

11:26

Oh, I love lau-colom. Those

11:28

cans? Yeah, the cans. Yeah,

11:31

because in the fall they

11:33

have pumpkin flavored, like

11:35

very lightly sweet pumpkin

11:38

flavored lau-colom. So I get in

11:40

the fall spirit. I

11:43

don't love flake. All

11:46

the pumpkin spice stuff. I'll have to try

11:48

it. I'll have to try it. I'm reserving

11:50

judgment. I shouldn't say that I don't like

11:52

it, but you know. It's usually not your

11:54

jam. It's usually not

11:57

my jam, but I'm open

11:59

to. it. I'm open to

12:01

it. The founder of La

12:03

Colombe is also obsessed

12:05

with saving orangutans. Did

12:07

you know this? I had

12:09

no idea any of this back story. I'm

12:13

here to enlighten you. This is all new to

12:15

me. Yeah.

12:17

I think he has a

12:19

nonprofit devoted to saving orangutans.

12:21

This has been going on

12:23

for years. That's great.

12:26

Yeah. The more you know. Well,

12:30

listen, it was

12:32

fun, fun bantering with you. And

12:34

like Elise said, we do this

12:37

for a full mini episode length

12:41

time every week

12:43

on the Patreon. We are still doing the

12:45

casual chats. So if you enjoy just this

12:47

kind of a banter, I suggest

12:50

checking out the Patreon. You can do a

12:52

seven-day free trial and listen and see how

12:54

you feel. We're also going

12:56

to be doing monthly pop

12:58

culture and book roundups, recommendation

13:01

roundups. And you also get

13:03

ad-free episodes at the $10

13:05

tier. So there's a lot

13:07

happening on the Patreon. That's

13:10

at patreon.com/ forever35. All right,

13:12

Elise, do you want

13:14

to introduce our guest? This

13:16

week we have Shima Oliyai on the show.

13:19

She is a first generation American born and

13:22

raised in Nevada. And you will

13:24

know of her work because she's

13:26

the co-creator of the nine-part series

13:28

Dolly Parton's America. Remember that from

13:30

during COVID? Oh, yeah. It

13:33

received several national awards, including

13:35

a Peabody and an Edward

13:37

R. Murrow, among others. After

13:40

she studied music and cinema at USC's

13:42

Thornton School of Music, she received her

13:44

graduate degree in psychology, worked as a

13:47

teacher, translated for the UN, volunteered to

13:49

raise young women revolutionaries and worked in

13:51

comedy TV, including the

13:53

Golden Globe winning Brooklyn Nine-Nine. This

13:56

is all before she returned to

13:58

her first love of audio. Shima

14:00

reported Radiolab's Sexual Consent Series in

14:03

the know, that's N-O. She

14:05

also produced and reported the Stitcher mini

14:08

series, Unerased, A History

14:10

of Conversion Therapy in America, which

14:12

KQED News called the best

14:15

podcast of 2018. Now she

14:17

is back with an engrossing

14:19

series on the most

14:21

promising young women in America called

14:23

The Competition. Before we go

14:25

to Shima, I just want to remind everyone,

14:28

our website is forever35podcast.com. We

14:31

have links to everything you mentioned on the show. We'll probably

14:33

link to Elise's jacket. I mean, why not?

14:37

You don't get to see it. So why don't we just

14:39

sell it to you? Exactly. You

14:41

can follow us on Instagram at

14:44

forever35podcast. Again, our Patreon is at

14:46

patreon.com/forever35. We have our favorite

14:48

products at shopmy.us slash forever35. You can

14:52

sign up for our newsletter

14:54

at forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And you can

14:57

call or text us at

14:59

781-591-0390. Just put

15:01

us in your phone. So

15:04

when you think of something you want to

15:06

tell us, you can just say call forever35.

15:09

And our email is forever35podcast.gmail.com. Okay,

15:12

now we're going to take a break and then

15:14

we will get to Shima. Hey,

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I'm gearing up for my next trip, deciding

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20:06

Shima to Forever 35. We're so

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happy to have you. I'm

20:11

so excited to be here. We both

20:13

really enjoyed your podcast, the

20:16

competition, and we're so excited to talk

20:18

to you all about it. But first,

20:20

we do like to start off by

20:22

asking our guests about a self care

20:24

practice that they have. So is there

20:26

something that you are doing right now

20:28

that you would consider self care? Like

20:31

I have a couple, they're quick,

20:33

but one is, you know,

20:35

I live in New York is to, I don't

20:37

know if this is very New York thing, but I love going

20:39

to an empty theater and watching a film at

20:42

a random time of day, usually ditching work

20:44

at some point or even getting out late

20:46

out of work on a Friday night and just going

20:48

to a film that no one's watching. Love

20:51

that. Another thing

20:53

is if there's, this

20:55

is just something that I think has a

20:57

little bit more meaning. If there's a

21:00

time when you're really going through something

21:02

hard, like at a job or in

21:04

a relationship or with your

21:06

religion, whatever it is, I

21:10

will start listening to music I listened

21:12

to before that thing ever existed in

21:14

my life. Oh, I love

21:17

that. And that

21:19

has really helped me get through some

21:21

like hard moments is I

21:23

go to that, I just start listening to

21:25

the music before that thing ever came in.

21:27

I knew it, you know, it was real

21:29

to me. So it relieves you mentally from

21:32

whatever it is you're facing because you go

21:34

to the self that like didn't even care

21:36

or didn't know and was not

21:38

connected to any of it. I don't know. That was

21:40

something that I kind of discovered as I became an

21:42

adult. That's so smart. I had

21:44

a mentor in comedy who like I was really

21:47

going through it and I called her and she's

21:49

like, listen to that. She's the one who told me she's

21:51

like, just listen to any music you listen to before

21:55

you were here, before

21:57

you were before you had to deal with

21:59

this bullshit. Anyway, great. That's so smart.

22:02

I don't know if she did it somewhere. Yeah,

22:04

yeah, yeah. I think she went through something or she

22:06

had to do the same thing. Okay. All

22:09

right. We're going to save that obviously. I

22:11

think listeners are going to really like it too. All

22:13

right. I'm so excited to talk about

22:16

Distinguished Young Women, which is the competition

22:18

that your show,

22:20

the competition is centered

22:22

around. I hadn't actually heard

22:24

of this scholarship competition before and it

22:27

has kind of pageant roots. So

22:29

can you just set it up and

22:31

describe what Distinguished Young Women is? Yes.

22:36

So it's kind of the

22:38

first teen pageant that doesn't call

22:40

itself a pageant. And

22:43

it started in Mobile, Alabama. A

22:46

group of do-gooders that were all

22:48

men put on a festival

22:51

slash carnival called the Azalea

22:54

Trail Maid Carnival and they would have

22:56

high school girls be Azalea trail maids.

23:00

And then they would give scholarships to these

23:02

high school girls. And then that slowly

23:05

morphed into the thing that was launched in 1958,

23:07

which was called America's Junior

23:10

Miss, which kind

23:12

of occurred because girls from outside of

23:14

Alabama were trying to be

23:16

part of this trail maid festival. Long

23:18

story short, it starts in 1958. 1963,

23:22

Diane Sawyer wins and the

23:24

scholarship competition just spreads

23:27

from there. There's more and more

23:29

participants each year. The numbers that you

23:31

can win get larger. It

23:33

kind of became a microcosm of whatever

23:35

was happening in girl world that

23:37

year. So the fashions

23:40

that you were expected to wear

23:42

on stage, the fitness portion of

23:44

the competition usually

23:47

reflected what was going on for

23:49

fitness in America for

23:51

women. And I think

23:54

it started, it always had five

23:56

categories. So one was the

23:59

judges interview. I was a judge in

24:01

2022 when the competition takes place. So it was like

24:03

me and the girls for 10 minutes, they have, we

24:05

can ask any question imaginable

24:08

and they have to answer. And

24:11

it, the cutoff is at 10 minutes and

24:14

it's the first thing that happens in the competition. Then

24:17

there's the on stage categories,

24:19

that self expression, which is

24:22

answering a simultaneous question on stage. You

24:26

have 30 seconds to answer. That's very

24:28

much like what we think of as

24:30

Miss America or Miss USA today. And

24:32

there's also the fitness portion of the

24:34

competition, which is doing an

24:36

actual fitness routine on stage. And we

24:38

go through the comedy of like what

24:41

happens in each era of this

24:43

competition. And then

24:46

what else is there? There is talent

24:48

where you have 90 seconds to perform a

24:50

talent on stage. And then

24:53

there is a scholastics,

24:55

which happens before you

24:57

even get there. It's a calculation of all of

24:59

your academic honors and achievements, which is 25% of

25:02

your score. So it's

25:04

kind of like a nerdy pageant. It's like

25:06

a little, I mean, that's how- There's

25:09

no swimming gown. There's

25:11

no swimsuit. Yeah, they're used

25:13

to, so this is also part of

25:15

the evolution is there were

25:18

gowns at one point. So 1958, when that woman

25:20

named Phyllis won, like she wore a gown, she

25:22

got a crown. There

25:24

have been no crowns for decades. I got

25:26

a medal when I won. And

25:30

I, yeah, I did have

25:32

to wear a gown my year. Yeah,

25:36

so we should point out that Shima, since

25:39

I don't know if we said it

25:41

in the intro. So Shima actually participated

25:43

in distinguished young women,

25:45

not only coming back in 2022 as a judge,

25:48

but also in 2001, you

25:51

represented your home state, right?

25:54

Yes, and I didn't know what I

25:56

was entering. I basically found it in

25:58

a book called- to go

26:00

to college for free, which

26:02

was like a bunch of like nerdy scholarships to

26:05

like pay your way to school. The guy who

26:07

wrote the book went to Harvard, majored in journalism,

26:09

and I was like, he seems kind of boring.

26:11

No, I'm a journalist. Anyway, so I think like,

26:13

you know, I wasn't I didn't quite know what

26:15

to expect, but I did need to pay for

26:17

school because my parents were not going to pay

26:19

for school. And I wanted to study art, which

26:22

they definitely did not want me to study. So

26:24

I was willing to do

26:26

anything. So I showed up at this Nevada

26:28

competition, which the local programs are very different

26:30

from the national competition because the national competition

26:33

is so connected to Mobile, Alabama. And it's

26:35

huge there. This one, I actually had to

26:37

do things. And I was going

26:39

to probably lose. I think I knew that going in.

26:43

It is so intense. Yeah,

26:45

it's very, and some girls

26:47

are really prepared and some are not some states are

26:50

really advanced and some are not. But yeah,

26:52

that's probably the hardest. One

26:54

of the hardest things I did, like

26:57

academically, like something that I did that

26:59

was an organizational thing as a teenager.

27:02

What's funny is I hadn't

27:05

thought about the program for 20 years. And

27:08

when my podcast Dolly Pardons America came

27:10

out, the program had put made a

27:12

Facebook post about me saying this is

27:15

one of our alumni. She just want

27:18

to be and I didn't

27:20

even know the name had changed because they, they

27:22

keep trying to modernize this program. They promote themselves

27:24

as if they are a different standard. I think

27:27

that is somewhat true. But they're

27:30

still very pageanty like aspects of it.

27:32

Obviously, they asked me to

27:34

be a judge. And it was someone different who

27:36

asked me to be a judge, the executive director

27:38

at the time. And that's when I said, Hey,

27:41

I thought it would be a really great idea

27:43

to record what happens there. And

27:46

they said yes, which

27:48

was and that's how you got the access to that's

27:50

awesome. That is how I got the access.

27:52

So I was both a judge and producer of the

27:54

show. And I sent two women

27:58

down there. more

34:00

academics. Before

34:02

my year, Scholastics and

34:04

Judges Interview counted for less. Okay.

34:08

Yeah. And I was a nerd. I won the

34:10

Scholastics Award my year. So I

34:13

won the one thing that the judges had nothing

34:15

to do with. Amazing. Okay, let's

34:17

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35:26

So what are your

35:28

kind of like big picture takeaways

35:30

from doing the show

35:33

and being so immersed in the

35:35

world of distinguished

35:37

young women? Like do you

35:39

have any big takeaways about girlhood,

35:41

about adolescence? Yeah. Just

35:44

kind of curious. So

35:47

in the fifth episode, we

35:49

were going to bring this up if we weren't going to bring it up. Okay.

35:53

Before, let me do babysitting before

35:55

we get there. So girls talk

35:57

about race. These are other things. that were

36:00

different from my year. Girls are talking about

36:02

race at the competition. There are

36:04

moments that we don't share in the show, but

36:07

everyone was talking about race at moments

36:09

like on a bus ride from this

36:11

location to that location between rehearsals. They

36:14

were talking about sexuality in

36:17

corners. People were talking about boys

36:19

in a way that I never,

36:22

we never felt safe

36:24

talking about that while we were there.

36:26

Like we were such good girls. We

36:28

were very disciplined, quiet. We were just

36:30

following the orders in a way that

36:33

these girls were more willing to

36:35

break the rules, though they're still very

36:37

self-disciplined young women. And

36:41

so that was interesting to me. That

36:44

was a little bit shocking. And then an

36:46

episode, that was

36:49

actually really encouraging. And I think, and one

36:51

of the girls, Colorado, who decides

36:53

to use her talent to

36:55

talk about race, she

36:58

talks about George Floyd's murder and all of

37:00

that, like the Black Lives Matter movement happening

37:03

while she's in high school. And

37:05

that made her very adamant

37:08

about speaking about race. Her

37:10

mother, who is white, also

37:12

participated in America's Junior Miss

37:14

in the 90s. That's right.

37:17

And one talent. The people who

37:19

have participated are called has-beens, which

37:21

is hilarious. Like, I

37:23

guess that's on purpose. I

37:26

didn't even know I was called a has-been. Yeah,

37:28

I didn't know that was a thing. Till I came back

37:30

as a judge and then they called me a has-been. And

37:32

I was very offended. Your

37:34

has-been at 19. I was offended. Yeah,

37:36

yeah, your has-been at 19. As soon as

37:39

you pass on the title, you're done. Yeah,

37:42

so race and sexuality, the

37:47

way girls were talking about it, but also the

37:49

ways that some things are still so much like

37:52

they were in 2001. The

37:55

fact that California couldn't just come out

37:57

and say, like, hey, I'm queer. she

38:00

did feel a little bit nervous about saying

38:02

that. That

38:04

was interesting to me. The fact

38:06

that Colorado did use her

38:08

talent to talk about race, that

38:11

was actually really great to see. That

38:14

was an evolution from when I was there. In

38:17

the fifth episode, the

38:20

takeaway, okay, so in the fifth episode, unbeknownst

38:23

to all of us who are there, this is

38:25

almost the end of week two, which the girls

38:27

are away from home for two weeks to compete

38:29

against each other. We get this

38:31

news, I get

38:33

the news from my phone, but they get

38:36

the news through- They don't have their phones.

38:38

And they don't. They get the news through

38:40

a secret code about some major news breaking.

38:43

And yes, the reason is they are not allowed to

38:45

have phones while they are at

38:47

the competition. And

38:51

so a group of the

38:53

conservative girls had created a

38:55

secret code about

38:57

Roe v. Wade, so

39:02

that if the news did break and if the

39:04

Supreme Court had issued its stops

39:06

decision, they would know, even

39:09

though they weren't allowed to have their phones. So

39:11

someone called in about someone being sick

39:13

with cancer and that was actually a

39:15

code- Oh, wow, yeah. Yeah,

39:18

that was code for whether she

39:20

was sick or she

39:23

had healed from cancer that

39:25

relayed the message of whether the

39:27

Dobbs decision had been in favor

39:29

of Roe or had overturned Roe.

39:32

And the girls have no idea that this is

39:35

a code. Two of the girls- Who

39:38

are from the conservative states? Who are

39:40

from the conservative states- Candace and Montana, yeah.

39:42

Yes, so Candace gets the call. She's the

39:44

one who gets the call from outside talking

39:46

about Jennifer who has recovered from cancer, which

39:48

is good news. She

39:50

tells Montana, Montana and her are crying because

39:53

they are so overjoyed and happy. And

39:55

all the other girls, they're in the middle of rehearsal,

39:59

practicing- practicing a

40:01

dance to Time of My Life, which is

40:03

supposed to be the closing number. So it's

40:05

also a movie from a movie with an

40:07

abortion story. So quite ironic.

40:10

So they hear these girls crying.

40:12

They see them crying. They're like,

40:14

what is going on? And then

40:16

word spreads that someone has overcome

40:18

cancer. So they're so excited. And

40:22

then when

40:25

the conservative girls start telling the other conservative girls that actually

40:27

it's that Roe v. Wade has

40:29

been overturned, that news starts to

40:32

slowly spread. And so it is

40:34

a very shot. It's

40:37

the way that everyone finds out is

40:39

very upsetting, especially for the people

40:41

who are not happy with the news. And

40:44

someone who is a former winner,

40:46

2018's Distinguished Young Woman of America,

40:48

she gets up. She's

40:51

there supporting that day. She thinks everyone knows.

40:53

And she says, if anyone wants to talk

40:55

to me, I am here. If

40:57

you are upset by the news and half of the

40:59

girls go, what news? They don't know. And

41:03

then the entire room erupts

41:06

and there's like a parting of the sea. So

41:09

half the girls, the conservative girls are on

41:11

one side talking about it. And the girls

41:13

that are the liberal girls are on the

41:15

other side very upset. And then there's some

41:17

girls in the middle who don't know what

41:19

to think. And one

41:21

of the most poignant moments in the show

41:23

is Tennessee goes,

41:26

like, why are people crying? Is someone

41:29

pregnant? Like, she didn't

41:31

understand why people would be upset

41:33

if they weren't pregnant. And most

41:35

of her friends are pro-life. You

41:38

know, she we interview her later, but

41:40

yeah, she is learning about

41:42

it. Educating herself about it. Yeah, she

41:44

learns about it in real time. I

41:46

really like her. I really liked Amy.

41:49

I love Tennessee. I love all of

41:51

them. I mean, I know it's like

41:53

they're they have very different political views

41:55

than me, but we really did respect

41:57

all of the girls. Yeah. Yeah,

42:00

in the character. You were going to say about Tennessee? I

42:03

just really liked her a lot. I

42:05

was a little stunned that some

42:08

of these girls did a lot of speech and

42:10

debate, for example, and then they have to be

42:12

so prepared to talk about these ethical and moral

42:15

current events questions in their interview section

42:17

with the judges. I know that I

42:19

would completely wilt under the pressure if

42:21

I had to go before these judges

42:23

with the questions that they're presented with

42:25

because they're real. You have

42:27

to make some real leaps

42:30

and connections and be quite agile in

42:32

your thinking. And so I was a

42:34

little surprised that there were girls who

42:36

kind of didn't understand the stakes of

42:39

abortion, but then you forget how young

42:41

they are and because

42:43

they are so poised. I love when they

42:46

start talking about how old the Supreme Court

42:48

judges are and like how they can't get

42:50

fired and how it's like it

42:52

doesn't make sense to them because they're like, wait,

42:54

you can be bad at your job and not

42:56

get fired because they're good girls. They're all like

42:58

working middle class girls. They think you have to

43:00

follow the rules and then if you do well,

43:02

you will advance. And they're like, wait, these dudes

43:05

can't, they just get to

43:07

stay there till they die. That was fun. That

43:09

was fun too to hear. That actually, you raise

43:11

a really important theme of the show

43:13

that I wanted to ask you about because what

43:16

we hear consistently is this idea

43:18

of achievement culture and meritocracy and

43:20

doing a good job and that

43:22

your mattering is tied to your

43:24

doing a good job and being

43:26

able to perform and this extreme

43:28

pressure on all of these young

43:30

women to achieve for

43:33

money. So in a capitalistic system, obviously we have

43:35

to pay for things. And so talk

43:38

us through your thinking on not only

43:40

the, you wrestle a little

43:42

bit with pageants and kind of how women

43:44

get objectified. And obviously

43:47

this is only a quasi pageant, but they're

43:49

still being looked at, but

43:51

also the achievement culture of all of this,

43:53

the way that the girls have internalized this

43:55

notion that if you do a good job,

43:57

you can be successful. Yeah,

44:00

so going back

44:02

to the question that I was supposed to be

44:04

answering about, like, what

44:07

were the main takeaways? Like, so

44:09

from that abortion scene, like, are

44:13

the overturning of Roe v. Wade? Yeah,

44:18

so my two main takeaways, which I

44:20

did not understand going in, which

44:22

connect to your question, Elise, is these

44:27

are girls that, like, they need

44:29

money, right? So like, you start

44:31

to learn how to navigate rules

44:33

and systems very young in the

44:35

educational system in America. You

44:38

do certain things, you become class president, you do

44:40

certain things, you get an A, you do certain

44:42

things, you, like, make a club,

44:44

you have a resume. Like, you know

44:46

that no one's going to get you

44:48

into school. Like, you know you can't

44:50

rely on, like, Uncle Steven Spielberg, like,

44:52

giving you a job. Like, they just,

44:55

these are girls that need to figure it out

44:57

on their own for the most part. And

45:01

so what that does is, like, it creates a certain

45:03

kind of self-discipline that each of them

45:05

has, like, kind of put on themselves. And

45:09

the fitness routine in episode two

45:11

is a great example of shut

45:13

up and do the routine. And like, if

45:16

you complain about the routine, maybe it's because you're not the

45:18

best. Like if you were the best, you could just touch

45:20

your toes. You could jump up and touch your toes like

45:22

a cheerleader. That's how I felt in 2001 when I was there. Like,

45:25

oh, why would I complain about this? There are

45:27

girls touching their toes, like jumping that. And to

45:29

them, that's fitness. I was a swimmer. Like, there

45:32

was nothing to do. You didn't get to swim.

45:34

I would have beaten everyone in swimming, I think.

45:36

But maybe not. Like, maybe I would have been

45:38

top five. I don't know. But I think that

45:41

discipline carries on into

45:43

womanhood. And I

45:46

thought about the moments in my

45:48

working life as a grown woman

45:50

where I was really

45:53

fucked over or treated very

45:55

badly. And

45:58

I think I was an easy to... target

46:01

because I always take responsibility.

46:03

I'm going to work outwork everyone. I will

46:05

work the long hours. I will not ask

46:07

for extra pay. I will be quiet. I

46:09

will know when to be quiet, when to

46:11

speak up. And you get

46:13

your work stolen from you in that way.

46:15

You get a

46:18

pat on the head. You advance in a certain

46:20

way, but you don't advance in the way that

46:22

you really dream or wish to. And

46:25

I realized, oh, my self-discipline made

46:28

me an easy target to take advantage of. And

46:30

I think that happens to a lot of

46:33

women. And that I

46:35

did not understand till I was writing the show. And

46:37

I don't quite get there in episode four. I like

46:39

allude to it, but I try not to take over

46:41

the show from the girls. It really is about them.

46:43

I'm really there as a ghost of

46:46

Christmas future being like, some bad things might happen,

46:48

like be aware. But I don't want to also

46:50

say, I am for sure no bad

46:52

things will happen. Like I, it was

46:54

such a hard line to walk.

46:57

Honestly, if I could have just done it all myself, it

47:00

would have been much darker. The whole show would have been

47:02

much darker, but I, you know, I don't want to discourage

47:04

girls. I want to give them some hope. So

47:06

that was the first big takeaway. The

47:08

second big takeaway that stemmed from that

47:10

scene about the code and Roe v.

47:12

Wade was I was shocked,

47:16

stupidly shocked. I wish I wasn't this naive,

47:20

how split the girls were about the decision.

47:22

I thought all

47:24

the women would be upset. Like I just,

47:27

I mean, maybe one or two for

47:30

whatever personal religious reasons, like I get

47:32

it, but I was

47:34

shocked at how

47:36

divided that room

47:38

was. Even knowing that probably

47:41

most of them hadn't faced or talked to,

47:43

like I didn't have a friend who had

47:45

had an abortion. Maybe some had, but probably

47:47

most hadn't or if

47:49

they did, they didn't know about it. Or

47:51

if they had had one, they weren't going to

47:53

talk about it. Right. So that

47:56

was shocking to me. And I was just thinking

47:58

about the, you know, what think about about

48:00

pageants like it's all about women talking about world

48:02

peace and like getting on a stage talking about world

48:05

peace and I really wanted to say

48:07

like wow if all of us could just unite

48:09

if those 50 girls could unite around something or

48:11

if all the random women who have been

48:14

in this competition there's almost a million of

48:16

us out there if we could unite about

48:18

one simple thing like we could do world

48:20

peace you know like

48:22

maybe we could like abolish nuclear weapons what a force you

48:25

know as soon as I started to go there I was

48:27

like because I was thinking about ending the show like that

48:29

like we could all abolish nuclear weapons

48:31

like we could do world peace but I'm like

48:33

I don't know if all these girls want to abolish

48:35

nuclear weapons like that's what I want to do you

48:38

know and that was

48:40

shocking that was so upsetting to me

48:43

and oh my god

48:45

it it made me so sad as a woman

48:47

I'm like this is why we

48:49

don't have rights we don't have enough rights

48:51

or power like we're come we

48:54

don't all agree that we should have one

48:56

last question which is that Shima

48:59

you were wearing with the perfect red lipstick and

49:03

oh I must know must

49:05

know what it is I went to

49:08

Sephora and I just

49:10

said I need a red lipstick and

49:12

I think that the girl working there

49:14

she got like a bonus if she

49:16

sold me Christian Dior that day so

49:19

she yeah I found out like I like I

49:22

anyway I had another friend who worked there she's

49:24

like oh yeah there was a thing that if

49:26

you did it this week well anyway so I

49:28

got scammed but it was a good scam so

49:31

it was Chris it's from Sephora Christian Dior and

49:33

it's just Rouge Rouge Dior you can't

49:35

see it it's such a perfect red so you might

49:38

have been scammed but like she was maybe on

49:40

to something she helped

49:42

me yeah she helped me it works

49:44

out in your favor yes mutual mutual

49:46

benefits Shima where can our listeners find

49:48

you and listen

49:51

to your work um

49:54

I have all the social

49:56

media handles it's just my first name and

49:59

my last name it's It's a lot of

50:01

vowels, so get ready. It's Shima as in

50:03

Hiroshima, the second half. So S-H-I-M-A. My

50:06

last name is O-L-I-A-E-E. So

50:10

it's Shima-Oli-A-I. I'm on

50:12

Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, everything. TikTok,

50:14

though I rarely post on

50:17

TikTok, but I love

50:19

TikTok. I especially love BookTok, another

50:21

great self-care thing.

50:23

I love BookTok. I love people talking about

50:26

books. I think it's maybe the Reading Rainbow

50:28

thing. And

50:30

yeah, and the

50:32

show, you can probably

50:35

find the show through any of those handles. But

50:38

it's just the competition Shima. If you look up

50:40

the competition, if you just Google the competition Shima,

50:42

you'll find it on any app. It's

50:45

really good. I know I gave

50:48

a bit away here, but it's such

50:50

a great surprising ride. I think you'll

50:52

get stuff that I didn't share here

50:54

in the podcast. It is

50:58

the closest thing, I

51:01

think, that you can get to what it is like

51:03

to be a teen girl today. You

51:05

get to basically be on a ride with teen girls

51:07

and hear about their lives, what it was like for

51:09

them coming up. The

51:11

cast is very diverse. We have one

51:14

of the youngest winners of

51:16

a Republican primary from Montana.

51:19

She is there. We have a young

51:21

woman whose mother crossed the border twice

51:23

when she was pregnant. And she is

51:26

also a great dancer and

51:29

activist from New Mexico. She

51:32

is there. We have

51:34

also the actual winner who I will not

51:36

give away is there. A

51:39

couple presidential hopefuls, someone

51:41

who I think will be on Broadway one day, Colorado.

51:44

All of these, the cast

51:46

is just incredible. The women who share

51:49

their lives are so fascinating. And

51:52

they do give you a capsule of what

51:54

has happened in America the last couple of

51:56

years, what it was like to live all

51:58

of these traumatic events, the pandemic. you know,

52:01

school shootings, being on social media

52:03

as a kid, what it is like to apply for school

52:05

at this time, what is stress like, what is bullying like,

52:08

what is it like to be sexualized as a teen

52:10

today? They share all of that

52:12

in the show. It's really

52:14

great for parents, but also great for anyone

52:16

who's reminiscing about what it was like for

52:18

us as millennial teens too. Like I really,

52:20

it brings up a lot. Like

52:23

you start realizing things about yourself from listening

52:25

to the other girls. It's such

52:27

a great listen, yes. Yes. And

52:30

again, you can find it anywhere you listen to

52:32

podcasts. The competition. Shima Oliayi,

52:34

thank you so much. Thanks so much,

52:36

Shima. Thank you guys for having me.

52:38

I appreciate it. Wow,

52:44

that was fascinating. Not

52:46

gonna lie. I was

52:48

nowhere close to being a distinguished young woman.

52:50

I'm glad I never had heard of that.

52:53

Me neither. Those

52:55

girls were crazy accomplished. I

52:59

know. By the time they were 17 or 18 years

53:01

old. I know. And the

53:03

pressure is just, whew. The pressure is a lot. Yeah,

53:05

totally. Elise, let's intention it

53:07

up. Yeah, I was gonna say I wanted to

53:10

see or give an update because last week, did

53:12

you have an intention? I did. I

53:15

had like a midlife crisis intention. That's

53:17

right. Did

53:20

you figure it out? Is everything solved? Everything

53:23

is solved. It's amazing. It

53:25

only takes a week. I wouldn't say

53:28

everything is solved. I am coping by

53:30

channeling a lot of my energy into

53:33

captaining a summer tennis team and

53:37

recruiting people to be on the team and

53:39

setting up the team and getting everything set

53:41

for the team. And I'm really spending

53:43

a lot of time on that. How

53:47

many people do you need for a team?

53:50

So every season in

53:52

USTA recreational tennis, the

53:56

team configurations are slightly different. So like one

53:58

season and it'll be different. It'll be like

54:00

just doubles, then it'll be like 40 and

54:03

over, like singles and doubles,

54:05

then it'll be mixed up. There's

54:08

a lot of different ways that you can

54:10

form a team. Anyway, for summer, there are

54:12

mixed doubles teams, but I'm not doing a

54:14

mixed doubles team. And this

54:16

is what's called a tri-level team. So

54:19

you need players from three different

54:21

USTA ratings to be on the

54:23

team. And then every match.

54:25

And the ratings go from what? One to five? Is

54:28

it one to five? Two point five to five

54:30

is okay. And I'm a

54:32

two five. So I'm like on the lowest rung and

54:35

our tri-level team is two five, three,

54:37

oh, and three five. So you need

54:39

players from each of those ratings and

54:43

then every match to

54:45

players from each rating play a doubles match

54:48

against another team. So

54:51

I'm a two five. I've

54:55

been on two five teams. I know a lot of two fives.

54:57

That was no problem. I also sometimes play on a three oh

54:59

team, like if they need a sub or whatever. And so I

55:01

know a lot of three ohs. The three fives,

55:03

I was like, I don't know any three fives. Like

55:05

three five, you're like getting pretty good. Okay.

55:08

You know, think about this. But

55:11

I did finally find a couple of people. And

55:13

so we had like a scramble to get the

55:15

team set up because the deadline was like yesterday

55:18

and blah, blah, blah. So

55:21

you know, just. This is a way to

55:23

channel your energy and make you feel like

55:25

you have something to focus on. You

55:27

can't just roll over it. It's not just

55:29

like midlife spinning out of control. Exactly. It's

55:32

really it's like, you know how when

55:34

you look at the Enneagram descriptions and

55:36

it's like. It's

55:39

like this is like a good expression of

55:42

your Enneagram number. And then this is like

55:44

when it goes bad. For

55:47

me, it's like when it goes bad, it's like Donald

55:49

Trump. Because

55:51

he's an eight apparently. But then like

55:53

when it's good, you're like channeling your

55:56

need for kind of like

55:58

control and setting things up. for

56:01

good. And so I feel

56:03

like this is my way of doing

56:05

that in a way

56:07

that feels productive and fulfilling

56:09

and yeah.

56:12

And also takes my mind off of a lot of

56:14

other things that I'd rather not think about right now.

56:16

This is good. So

56:20

that is actually my intention for this week

56:22

is getting all the tennis stuff sorted. Awesome.

56:25

Thank you. All right. We'll check back

56:27

in on it next week. How about you? My

56:30

intention was about vitamins. Yes. It was

56:32

regarding the 400 pack of vitamin. Yes.

56:34

How was that going? That I bought.

56:37

I think I made it like four

56:39

out of seven days. So good thing.

56:41

Good thing I'm not on the pill kind

56:43

of birth control because

56:46

I am clearly not great at taking

56:48

daily medication. Okay. I

56:51

have an IUD, which I don't have to think about. Yeah.

56:55

Even my intention, even being really intentional about it last week

56:57

and saying I'm going to do this every day, didn't

56:59

get me to do it every single day.

57:01

But most

57:04

days I was able to. Oh,

57:06

wow. And then my mom helpfully

57:09

reminded me. Enneagram seven,

57:11

everybody. Enneagram

57:14

seven. What about this week? That's

57:21

a good question. This

57:24

week I have a lot of reading to

57:26

do. Oh, okay. I'm

57:29

going to read at least two

57:32

books this week and

57:34

I want you to hold me to it. They're extremely

57:36

readable books. One

57:39

we're reading for a guest for a show coming

57:41

up and then the other a friend of mine

57:44

who has become a very well known literary

57:47

translator who translates Korean

57:49

literature into English has

57:52

now come out with his own English language

57:54

novel. It's his debut novel and I can't

57:56

wait to read it. Oh, cool. Toward

57:58

eternity. Yeah. to read Toward Eternity

58:01

by Anton Herr this week. So that

58:04

will be my intention just to sit

58:06

down and enjoy fictional

58:09

worlds. Do you like

58:11

to read on paper or like e-reader

58:13

kind of thing? Both,

58:15

both. It just depends on like when

58:18

I'm traveling a lot, you know, and then

58:20

when I'm in cities with public transportation, I

58:22

usually am on an e-reader and it's my

58:24

most prized possession. I think I've kept mine

58:28

as a Kindle and I've had

58:30

mine for like 12 years

58:32

or something, the same one. And it's like

58:34

really beaten up, but I love

58:37

it. And then a lot

58:39

of times we'll get galleys, you know, the advanced

58:41

reader copies in physical books.

58:44

And so I'll just leave those by my

58:46

nightstand and I'll read them. So these two

58:48

books I'm reading this week, I am reading

58:50

hard copies. Nice. What about you? What do

58:53

you prefer? I read, I mostly

58:55

read on the Kindle app on my

58:57

iPad. I have had actual Kindles in the past

58:59

and they've all like broken or died in some

59:02

way. So I don't know. You like, you seem

59:04

to take better care of your Kindles than I

59:06

do. So

59:08

I read on the Kindle app. And,

59:11

but I also do try to read on paper

59:13

sometimes because I do think that like my focus

59:15

is better on paper. I love

59:17

dog earring. Yeah. And I like highlighting. I

59:19

have these crayon highlighters that I really enjoy.

59:21

They're so smooth the way they go on

59:23

the page. And so, so

59:26

that's what I like with reading hard

59:28

copies. Gotcha. Yeah. So reading will be

59:30

mine and tennis will be yours and

59:34

we will check back in on them. Sounds good.

59:36

All right. Well, thanks everyone. And just

59:38

a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and

59:41

produced by me, Doris Jafreer and Elise Hugh

59:43

and produced and edited by San Junio. Sammy

59:46

Reed is our project manager and our network

59:48

partner is a cast. Thanks everyone.