0:00

Hey everyone, we've got a new

0:02

Modular Focus podcast called Expansion launching

0:04

on the Block Works Network. Wearing.

0:06

The first episode here, so I highly

0:08

recommend you give it a listen and

0:10

then head over to Expansion and subscribe.

0:13

Hey everyone welcome to the first episode

0:15

of Expansion the podcast The Daves. Deep

0:18

into the world of modular block chain

0:20

design and the incredible possibility that this

0:22

new ecosystem is unlocking. I'm your cohost

0:25

racks and I'm also your co host.

0:27

No sleep John! So expansion is gonna

0:29

be di Maggio your podcast. It's a

0:31

builder first podcast optimized for digest or

0:34

narratives and concepts. The podcast or identify

0:36

up and coming founders and projects and

0:38

the module ecosystem and we want this

0:41

pods be required listening for every Belder.

0:43

In every user in the modular system,

0:45

whether you're a seasoned crypt, a researcher,

0:47

or you're just starting down the rabbit

0:49

hole is he came mathematician or just

0:52

a guy slinging means expansion is the

0:54

podcast for you will break down everything

0:56

into something this easy to understand, easy

0:58

to digest, and helps you see the

1:00

future of modular. Block and Modular by

1:02

definition as a design principles that's been

1:05

around forever, but encrypt though, it's becoming

1:07

something bigger. Modular is a culture and

1:09

ecosystem. It's a new form of collaboration

1:11

across the block and stack. As an

1:13

easier way for app developers to achieve

1:16

sovereignty and their box and stack and

1:18

it's expanding, expansion will be dropping. Weekly

1:20

episodes featuring both end up interviews with

1:23

industry leaders and modular roundups discussing the

1:25

hottest topics and developments in a space.

1:27

Were excited to start this journey with

1:30

you. So without further ado, let's get

1:32

into our first episode of expansion. Expansion

1:34

was kick started by a grant from

1:37

the Celestial Foundation. Nothing said on expansion

1:39

is a recommendation to buy or sell

1:41

securities or tokens. His podcast. Is

1:43

for informational purposes only and any

1:46

views expressed by anyone on the

1:48

show are solely our opinions, not

1:50

financial advice. Racks John and Are

1:52

guess may hold positions in the

1:55

company's phones or projects. Discuss: Expansion.

2:04

On your co host no sleep John. And

2:07

I'm Rex. So John, what's on your mind? Yeah.

2:11

So the the current block and design

2:13

landscape is starting to diverged. We have

2:15

fully integrated layer one block chain that

2:17

handle all the of a stack such

2:20

as like execution consensus settlement. Than.

2:22

We have the modular approach of box

2:24

and specialize in different parts of the

2:26

stock. So yes, like box and that

2:28

it it roll ups earlier to dedicate

2:30

execution. You. Have data availability at

2:33

layers sites was the focus on

2:35

T A and consensus. On

2:37

and there's many justices for like

2:40

Sovereign apps. So. Everyone's tired

2:42

of the modular vs monolithic.

2:44

Modular. Is integrated debate. I'm tired of it.

2:47

You're tired of it. As

2:49

we had so he hoped to have more

2:51

nuanced combo year with Joan A for Monad

2:53

and down from Minnesota. So. We

2:55

can be talking today on the range

2:57

of modular integrated. And.

3:00

Sovereignty. May different aspects that

3:02

they are going to. It. Awesome

3:04

was on Kiani walking with upon.

3:09

Yeah. Thanks! So much! Ravenous! Is

3:12

Sarah appreciate it? Again,

3:15

self help us understand the spectrum between

3:17

a truly modular vaccine and a fully

3:19

integrated sheen and then help us understand

3:21

where monad and in his yeah on

3:23

the on the spectrum says on you

3:25

only get a certain. Short.

3:29

So I think. Much.

3:31

Lane Integrated I are relatively new

3:34

terms release Integrated is a fine

3:36

you and term and it's different

3:38

from monolithic and Six and Sightings.

3:41

Modular is basically any block chain

3:43

that is trying to specialize in

3:46

one purpose. So. Whether that

3:48

be celestial as focus on

3:50

enhancing data availability? Ah, whether

3:52

that be something like even

3:54

the Lp stack which is

3:56

just focusing on like these

3:59

optimistic rollouts. In that part of the

4:01

the chain. Am I think

4:03

integrated is basically the idea

4:05

that you can have multiple

4:08

modular components. Build. Up

4:10

a chain into something that is lot

4:12

more complete and that is for people

4:14

like to college credit. Am.

4:17

I personally. Am not

4:19

exactly sure on my beliefs around

4:21

the word integrated, I think. Is.

4:24

Suzie Get a Law Harry. Because.

4:27

We like to call for. We.

4:29

Can call a full seen a modular chain

4:31

where we can also call an integrated to.

4:34

I think almost every block chain is an

4:36

integrated chain. And. So the

4:38

spectrum is less of a complete

4:40

live in my perspective and more

4:42

about. Like. A weird

4:44

sphere. Where. You can

4:47

have things that are a little

4:49

bit modular. That. Are

4:51

integrated. That

4:54

are also monolithic. And.

4:56

I think. The spot that initial

4:59

falls in is. An

5:01

it is. A. Modular

5:03

block trade In the sense that we

5:05

have a layer one. we have a

5:07

layer to system. We have the optimistic

5:09

grow up framework. We. Outsource

5:12

tested availability, but all those

5:14

different components you could say

5:16

are different modular pieces that

5:18

are being stacked together to

5:20

create one integrated. And

5:22

you can also say that it's just a.

5:26

Modulates. It because it has

5:28

some of many modular parts something

5:30

so of fuzzy. County

5:32

you have any ideas on how

5:34

you might clarify the difference as

5:36

integrated vs want your. Yard.

5:43

Somewhat. Similar to you I, I

5:45

would say that Monad is also a.

5:48

Modular. Block Chain and the

5:50

sense that the components are.

5:52

Quite. Supper Ball. the

5:55

execution system is a very

5:57

sapper component from the consensus

6:00

mechanism, both have to be

6:02

really high performance. It's not

6:04

enough to just have a really performant execution

6:06

system if consensus can't keep up. But

6:10

in the design of any good system, there would be

6:13

multiple modules that are where there's clear

6:17

boundaries between the

6:20

responsibilities and a

6:22

clear API between the two.

6:25

Maybe some of the differences though between

6:27

Monad and Inisha is that it sounds

6:29

to me from what you're saying that

6:32

Inisha is like you have a bunch of

6:34

different LEGO blocks, but then you

6:36

present to the roll

6:40

up developer like all these different building

6:42

blocks that they can choose

6:44

to put all together to produce

6:47

a comprehensive system that

6:50

has execution

6:53

system has some settlement onto a

6:56

base layer and then maybe

6:58

the data availability is the part

7:00

that gets outsourced. But

7:02

with that said, I also feel like the modular

7:06

narrative was started by a

7:08

group of people

7:11

that was working on data availability. So

7:14

probably the original premise was the modular

7:16

map like that you are using data

7:18

availability as a separate service

7:20

that could be outsourced.

7:22

So from that perspective, it sounds

7:24

like from

7:26

some perspective, Inisha might still fit

7:29

that modular descriptor

7:32

that was originally as it was

7:34

originally coined perhaps. Yeah,

7:36

I think so in my head, like the

7:39

analogy that I like to think about,

7:41

and I would love to hear if

7:43

you guys agree or if there's some pushback,

7:45

right, but a modular blockchain think Legos,

7:47

where like you can build whatever you

7:49

want using all these different pieces that kind

7:51

of come out of the box and

7:53

are able to integrate with other pieces

7:55

with like very minimal effort, whereas

7:58

An integrated or a modular block. Integrated

8:01

or a monolithic block chain is more

8:03

like like cast plastic. Like you have

8:05

to know what you're building and then

8:07

you put the plastic in there any

8:10

creates that exact shape and then you're

8:12

kind of done with it and so

8:14

one like do think that analogy holds

8:17

and then to for a modular block

8:19

chain is an important that these Legos

8:21

are A. You're able to bring in

8:24

Legos that are created by outside developers

8:26

and outside shops. or can you still

8:28

be like considered a modular. Block

8:30

chain that only uses like

8:32

proprietary Legos created by. The.

8:35

Like foundation they created the like.

8:38

Modular. Chain. And

8:43

in my opinion I think first of

8:45

all a solo Friday and slipped there

8:47

when he said. A integrated

8:49

and mix it up nicely. I

8:51

think they're very much the same

8:53

actually. An. Otherwise,

8:56

I think that your.

9:00

Description or analogy was was

9:02

relatively correct I think though

9:04

with the cast. Mold.

9:07

Version: I think an integrated block chain

9:09

is like a some of Lego blocks

9:11

said it and just like fused together

9:14

often. Rather than

9:16

it being like prebuilt and then selling it,

9:18

I. Am I think what in

9:20

he says is kind of like this

9:22

weird frankenstein. Mixture. Of

9:24

all of these things, I think

9:27

there are certain lego blocks because

9:29

we've use different modular components, but

9:32

we then fused them together to

9:34

create like this face underlying infrastructure

9:36

that. Is for this new multi

9:39

teen world are trying to build but

9:41

there are certain pieces that still have

9:43

those adapters or lego blocks of able

9:45

to be switch stuff. So

9:47

for example, am. On any

9:50

sir, Are layer one is

9:52

like the canonical method for a

9:54

consensus ab or for settlement and

9:56

then for consensus views and mint

9:59

across. Oh, player ones as

10:01

well as celebrities. Am and and

10:03

they use our opiates doc which is

10:05

for optimistic robots and the security we

10:08

have been the only use celeste yeah

10:10

for data availability the of like in

10:12

and trying to oracle system given enshrined

10:15

liquidity mechanism for all things to do

10:17

with bridging with again in he says

10:19

world we like. Only. Use I

10:21

D C. So. A lot of these

10:24

components are not pick and choose a

10:26

book. But. Rather, they've just been

10:28

based in In. I think that is

10:30

a good thing. I think choice overload.

10:33

Comes to be bad. like were trying

10:35

to build. The. Garden of Eden

10:37

of multi chain systems and. I

10:40

think the way you do that is

10:42

by picking like one service provider or

10:44

like. Wine. Integration.

10:47

And then integrating a properly. So

10:49

that you don't have to. Creep.

10:51

Fragmentation when it comes to things

10:53

like liquidity or data sources. I

10:56

think in a modular landscape, fragmentation

10:58

is like the biggest threat to

11:00

it. And if you have

11:02

tens of interoperability solutions tend to

11:05

be a layers like five different

11:07

Oracle providers like. This is

11:09

a problem is going to cause friction

11:11

in the future. And

11:13

so we've basically created this initial.

11:16

The. Slater. Glued. Together and

11:18

then on. the role of side we

11:21

let seems changed Everything about their roll

11:23

up on the Cosmos Sdk side of

11:25

it. Or. Pick between eve

11:28

am movie am or was and

11:30

pm. On. The Vm said.

11:32

The. Everything else is kind of enshrine and

11:34

into the system. Awesome

11:38

on yeah on that topic

11:40

of. Like. Choice process or

11:42

like having all these different choices are

11:44

mounted, got accounted for. This. On.

11:47

The what types of users, applications and

11:49

and developers are best suited for. Something

11:52

on a that's fully integrated like

11:54

Monad vs. like that Sovereign app

11:56

train network. On. Of.

11:59

Like I'm. The stack are like an issue. He

12:03

I think that anyone who

12:05

is building for the Iam

12:07

which is the really the

12:09

canonical standard for a smart

12:11

contract development, will benefit from.

12:14

Building. On Monad houses history capital

12:16

that Monad is a really

12:18

performance he be incompatible. Layer

12:20

One with over ten thousand

12:23

transactions per second has to

12:25

put one second, block times

12:27

and single slots analogy. In

12:29

the result of this really high. Throughput

12:32

means that there is to

12:34

supply of block space is very

12:37

high. Therefore the cost. Per.

12:39

Unit of computation in this

12:41

does not work respect leave

12:43

much much lower than. Either

12:46

on as your email lion or on.

12:49

Existing roll up solutions that

12:51

we've seen and that means

12:53

that ultimately application developers can.

12:56

Scale. To many more users

12:59

and can also build more

13:01

expressive applications with more complexity

13:03

with more. You.

13:06

Know state storage, more committing of

13:08

more data back to the back

13:10

and. And also

13:13

more security because they can be

13:15

more expressive about. Riding.

13:18

Out defensive assertions that and sure

13:20

that invariance that said always be

13:23

true And they're smart. Contracts are

13:25

constantly being maintained. Salt Millie, This

13:27

is just for anyone. this building

13:29

and eve yeah on that wants

13:32

to take advantage of. Building.

13:34

For a com and standard on this

13:36

more portable that isn't. A

13:38

does in subject of and lock

13:41

and problems where they might be

13:43

like building for a different kind

13:45

of the am and also wants

13:48

to take advantage of the significant

13:50

tool in an existing libraries. Are.

13:53

Many even tap into their. In.

13:57

A people are really think about us by

13:59

almost all. The are a lot of the

14:01

I'm. Applied. For dog v

14:03

research has been done in the context of

14:05

the eve as well. so anyone who wants

14:07

to take advantage of. All. Of

14:09

this research has been done it does I'll

14:12

be not and Iam space on they could

14:14

benefit from from building and them on at

14:16

ecosystem. Am and

14:18

I mix it on his sons and I

14:20

think just don't like put a point on

14:22

this like idea of like much as building

14:24

the Iam and then make that is performing

14:26

as possible. To me

14:29

resonates right and I it's It's like

14:31

the best analogy I have is to

14:33

javascript. were twenty years ago we had

14:36

javascript and it was this like really

14:38

clunky terrible language that was like

14:40

so idiosyncratic and like weird to is.

14:43

Like. Bbm and then like.

14:46

Over. Time I if I had a

14:48

dollar for every single company. they tried to

14:51

do a javascript killer. Lakes. We. Would

14:53

all be on yachts are now and

14:55

set of in this like little home

14:57

or domestic sitting. And what actually ended

14:59

up happening was there wasn't like a

15:01

javascript killer, it was like we as

15:03

a community just kept pouring more and

15:06

more research and building on top of

15:08

javascript so that it became like a

15:10

modern flexible language that supports the whole

15:12

internet. and so like. In. General

15:14

I like very much. Five with like

15:16

let's make the even better and not

15:18

like less scratched this and start over

15:21

and I'm so like I definitely hear

15:23

you to only like that makes sense

15:25

for what why to build on Monad

15:27

Zone Like can you talk as a

15:29

little bit like in contrast to at

15:31

Cuny just said about Monad Like what

15:33

are the types of developers and users

15:36

that make the most sense for and

15:38

is yeah and my wife if someone

15:40

was looking at let's say a Monad

15:42

vs and is yeah vs like. Something

15:44

that is just not in the scope of

15:46

this conversation. What makes the ideal and is

15:49

your user. So

15:52

I think our one of the. Benefits.

15:54

As. Thin. As ecosystem is

15:56

to say that the ability to own

15:58

young black teen. I. Think be

16:01

seen this idea proliferate for a

16:03

long time which is the option

16:05

pieces and as first time by

16:07

the Cosmos ecosystem Am and Cosmos

16:09

has always been the most flexible

16:11

start to build unique blockchain. Yes

16:13

I think on an issue where

16:15

really going for the obscene thesis

16:17

and sing for the longest time

16:19

This idea has proliferated as a

16:21

building your own apps and for

16:23

specific purposes. Why? Has always

16:25

been interesting about the Cosmos stack is

16:28

you had the most flexible framework to

16:30

build unique block. Chance by playing around

16:32

with Cosmos has to came modules. You

16:35

can change all sorts of things whether

16:37

that be like. How the

16:39

chain operates, power transactions are

16:42

ordered. His M E V

16:44

is held within this one

16:46

isolated system. But

16:49

it has been difficult to do so.

16:51

Because. On Cosmos you have to

16:54

run away or what? But. They

16:56

had this idea right where every

16:58

single one of these chains has

17:00

the same shared underlying thread of

17:02

infrastructure which allows them to communicate

17:04

freely, am and really interest rate

17:06

of each other. So. And

17:08

is so were very much of

17:11

the mindset. That. Applications.

17:14

Will. Become their own block since

17:16

I think there's a slew of reasons

17:18

for this takes ist and if you

17:20

look at the March you're right now.

17:23

You can see people specialize their chance.

17:26

For. A given his case, So.

17:28

If you look at something like T Y D S. As.

17:31

The way that they use their validators

17:33

within their networks to. Provide.

17:35

Oracle. Prices to create by

17:38

the most responsive and optimize

17:40

trading platform. Is a sovereign out?

17:43

And you can essentially do all those

17:45

things with finisher. By. What?

17:48

The helps hims do is

17:50

minimize. The. Need to deal

17:52

with the infrastructure said. So. You

17:54

can essentially and launch a full fledged

17:56

cosmos as to keep his chain. in

17:59

a few click And

18:01

then you have the full ability to change

18:03

everything about it or pick the VM that

18:05

suits you best So

18:07

I think with MoNad like if you

18:09

are an EVM builder that is

18:11

trying to build an EVM dev it's

18:14

going to be the best home for you because it's it's

18:17

goddamn fast to have a growing ecosystem

18:19

and EVM is like the

18:21

most prolific language. I

18:23

think there are benefits to other

18:25

VMs though that exist I

18:28

think we have definitely not found the one

18:30

that works best and after

18:33

having tried move and Cosmoism

18:35

I can confidently say that I like

18:37

them a lot more than I like

18:39

working with Solidity So

18:42

rather I believe that VMs are tools Everyone

18:45

should pick the VM that works best for

18:47

them and their application. Maybe if you're

18:49

trying to focus on Security or you're

18:51

a game developer move might be the best for

18:53

you If you like working with

18:56

pure rust, maybe Cosmoism might be the

18:58

best for you If you

19:00

want to fork something or

19:02

play with existing contracts like Solidity

19:04

might be the best And

19:07

I think in Inisha's world You

19:10

can essentially Pick and

19:12

choose the flavor that you want and build

19:15

these unique Isolated systems that

19:17

are then interwoven with the rest of

19:20

the world. So not only do you

19:22

get this Blockchain

19:24

that you can control but it's connected

19:26

to every other blockchain. It's fully interoperable

19:29

Like oracles are provided for you

19:32

data availability is provided for you Bridging

19:35

and instant bridging is all there

19:38

liquidity is like very accessible So

19:40

we just try and make it as easy as possible for

19:42

teams to build options What's

19:45

the just out of curiosity like what's

19:47

the oracle that? Would

19:50

be like yeah on on any of

19:52

the individual Inisha chains So

19:55

on Inisha we use skips linky. So

19:57

on the layer one our validator set

19:59

every single block, they upload new data

20:01

and post it to the layer 1. And

20:05

then we have basically a relaying system that

20:08

uses basically

20:11

mempool prioritization on the layer 2s

20:14

to relay that Oracle data

20:17

every single time that we receive it on the layer 1

20:19

to these layer 2s. So every

20:21

new update of Oracle data on the layer 1, it's at

20:23

the top of the block for the layer 2s. And

20:26

then if they want Oracle

20:28

data faster, they already have

20:30

that same slinky module on the layer 2,

20:32

and they just need to start running a

20:34

side car within their set of sequencers. I

20:38

see. Yeah, that's cool. Because I do

20:40

feel like one of the issues for a lot

20:42

of rollups is that they would have to separately

20:44

get Oracle

20:47

data arranged to have Oracle data pushed

20:50

onto that specific environment. And that could

20:52

be quite expensive. So it's cool that

20:54

you've addressed that problem. I think that's

20:57

one of the cool things about being able to build

20:59

this layer 2 system with

21:01

a layer 1 baked in. We're

21:03

able to just holistically re-approach

21:06

what should a system

21:08

look like that is designed for

21:10

a rollup-centric future. I think

21:13

right now, the rollups on Ethereum, the

21:15

original scaling vision of Ethereum is sharding. And

21:18

rollups just happen to become popular. And now we're

21:20

kind of fixing

21:22

the cracks by creating all these different

21:24

solutions. But with Inisha,

21:26

we've just holistically designed a layer

21:29

1 plus layer 2 solution that

21:31

is optimized for rollups.

21:34

And so we can give teams access

21:36

to native USDC and CCTV from day

21:38

one, which is kind of insane

21:40

as a rollup. You would never have

21:43

that ability. Instant bridging,

21:45

oracles, all these types of things

21:47

are just built into the system.

21:51

Right. So I guess maybe a way

21:53

to describe some commonality

21:56

between Inisha and Monat is that both are

21:58

Opinionated about. The.

22:01

Design of the different modules and

22:04

how they should fit together. Like

22:07

with with Monad, we're very opinionated

22:09

about the fact that we think

22:11

consensus and execution should actually. Be

22:14

Pipelines nodes should come to consensus

22:16

about the fissile order in of

22:19

transactions first and then after that

22:21

as decided on the block is

22:23

finalized than two things happen in

22:25

parallel, one as consensus over the

22:27

next block and the other his

22:30

execution and doing this actually massively

22:32

raises the budget for execution because

22:34

the time bunch of for executions

22:36

because now the for bottom can

22:39

be allocated execution and this is

22:41

a fairly opinionated stance that. Our.

22:43

Team has had and in designing the

22:46

Amon add we think that it'll actually

22:48

ultimately be. How

22:50

every block seen as have

22:52

been designed I know that

22:54

Holiest talked about introducing asynchronous execution

22:56

to Salon I and. I'm.

22:59

Near Perhaps others wall will follow

23:01

suit ultimately, but it's like having

23:04

a strong opinion. About.

23:06

The way this the components had worked together

23:08

as well as the actual. Choice.

23:10

Of those components of is this

23:13

I think quite important to I'm.

23:15

Pushing. The space for it in terms

23:17

about performance and decentralization. So

23:20

I want to jump in here and bring us

23:22

back before we move on to far because it's

23:24

on me to very specific comment that I went

23:26

against the on his reaction to which is. Correct.

23:29

Me if I'm wrongs on but you

23:32

said something to the a fact of

23:34

you believe the endgame destiny Let's say

23:36

of every D app is to be

23:38

com it's own app team and Kunio

23:40

on he prefers on is that somewhat

23:42

correct and Kiani do you agree with

23:44

that thesis. I wouldn't

23:46

say that's fully fact that I

23:49

think there are many situations where

23:51

application said becomes. I

23:53

don't think every application said

23:55

beaten. i think there's a

23:57

slew of applications that would work just

23:59

fine on a shared layer

24:01

one where they can share state and communicate

24:04

much easier. Fair enough.

24:06

And with that as like a caveat,

24:08

Keonni, do you think that the right

24:11

approach to blockchain endgame is to support

24:13

that kind of evolution or is the

24:15

Monad approach to say like this app

24:17

chain stuff is noise and we just

24:19

want to create this space that is

24:22

so performant that you can do whatever

24:24

you want on an app chain in

24:26

Monad? I

24:29

think that there are substantial

24:31

benefits to having a

24:34

very large shared global state

24:37

with many apps that are composing on

24:39

top of one another. The you

24:42

know atomic composability is really powerful

24:45

because it means that

24:47

we can that application developers can

24:50

literally build more complex

24:52

applications by piecing together

24:54

simpler ones and atomically

24:56

calling into other smart

24:58

contracts as subroutines and

25:01

then you know having the execution return and

25:03

immediately proceed on to some other

25:05

logic and then maybe call into another

25:07

smart contract. And

25:09

the benefit of that atomic composability

25:12

really can't be understated because there's

25:14

nothing that can disrupt the flow

25:16

of that. There can't be any

25:18

random other transaction that lands in

25:20

the middle of those that you

25:22

know messes up the overall flow

25:24

and then causes the ultimate

25:26

behavior to revert. It's

25:29

just very complex if you

25:33

know if you introduce the possibility of

25:35

reversions partway through and it's

25:37

really hard to build up complex logic when

25:41

not everything is is in sync and

25:43

being pushed through one execution pipe. But

25:46

the problem is really to

25:48

make that execution pipe really perform

25:51

it so that we can actually

25:53

support many users and very complex

25:55

computation without

25:58

forcing this you know,

26:00

everyone to go out into separate shards or

26:02

separate roll ups. So I

26:05

feel pretty strongly that there's a huge benefit

26:07

to, in the very

26:09

least, like having one layer of the stack

26:11

be extremely performant. And then if we get

26:13

to the point where we saturate that

26:17

overall throughput, then, you know, we could start

26:20

to think about having multiple

26:22

layers and moving some

26:24

of the execution out into these separate

26:26

layers, which hopefully as well are also

26:28

individually very, very performant. And

26:30

at that point, utilizing the

26:33

fractal scaling approach of roll ups. So

26:36

that's sort of my first order reaction. I guess

26:38

the other thing I would say is that, you

26:41

know, DY DX is a great example of

26:43

an app chain, but there really aren't that

26:45

many other such examples. If

26:49

we just look at the current landscape of things, and

26:51

so I acknowledge that, you know, maybe the future could

26:53

be different, but just looking at the landscape

26:55

right now, it's like DY DX is literally

26:57

the like poster

26:59

child for the ability to like

27:03

take advantage of the

27:07

fact that like execution flow that you might

27:09

want to modify like some of the execution

27:12

flow at the client level and introduce, you

27:16

know, take, you know, capture MEV and

27:18

then also like have hooks that happen

27:20

like before or after transactions get processed.

27:22

But that's a very specific application. I,

27:25

the main concern I would have is that,

27:28

you know, like modifying client code,

27:31

then it's risky, like it, it,

27:33

you know, in order to be for users

27:35

to feel safe about this, like that code

27:37

needs to be audited very carefully, need to

27:40

be very careful about how any

27:42

of the pre or post transaction hooks

27:44

are interacting with the

27:46

overall system. It's just like very,

27:48

you know, very intricate. And if

27:50

you get something wrong, it

27:53

can be catastrophic. So there's actually

27:55

a lot of benefits of just building inside

27:57

of the EVM where You

28:00

know everything is sandboxed and we already

28:02

have a very good understanding of the

28:05

overall like you

28:07

know execution flow of one transaction

28:10

and and what consequences can happen

28:12

from that and Audit is

28:14

very restricted to the scope of like what

28:16

happens inside of the smart contract at anything

28:19

that it calls as opposed to now worrying

28:21

about like all of the you know

28:24

validator behavior and even like

28:27

anyway, that's just to say that the There's

28:30

a lot of you know app

28:32

chain introduces flexibility, but realistically

28:34

most developers don't actually need that

28:37

flexibility and taking advantage of flexibility

28:39

also triggers significant

28:41

audit and ultimately You

28:45

know just like caution concerns Yeah,

28:48

it's on what's your take on like the Difference

28:52

or I would say lack of composability with

28:54

like the modular framework that you guys are

28:56

working with What's

28:58

your solution to that and

29:00

what are some use cases like you said

29:03

do IDX? What are some

29:05

new ones that you're seeing and what you're excited about? So

29:08

three-pronged question there sure,

29:10

so for Composability,

29:12

I think there's Quite

29:15

a wide array of solutions that are being

29:17

presented I think like ultimately

29:19

yeah, it would be amazing if everything

29:21

could share same state and Monad

29:24

was able to handle that and I think when

29:27

Monad launches It's gonna be incredible,

29:30

but I think if crypto grows to the level

29:32

that we hope it will All

29:34

over the world like we're gonna still need to

29:37

Have a few orders of magnitude

29:39

improvements and that'll happen over time

29:41

potentially in Shala And

29:44

I think in the meantime like app chains are

29:46

the way that we can scale this very easily

29:48

and that's what we've seen in traditional You

29:52

Know computer science as well the switch

29:54

from like these monolithic structures to basically

29:57

Multiple Different services that plug in with each other.

30:00

Like that modular approach is

30:02

what happened. In web to in

30:04

is where does have think med three as well.

30:07

And I think when it comes to

30:09

compose ability, it is definitely a problem.

30:12

As saying there are few solutions

30:14

want being said sequencers that I'm.

30:17

Actually, not fully sold on should sequences.

30:19

Yes, I think we're just putting another

30:21

consensus bottleneck and it's different. spawn. Within.

30:24

The system. And

30:26

I've yet to see like very strong to use cases

30:28

for it. So. I think. That.

30:31

It's something that will see and

30:33

time. At the moment, there

30:35

are solutions like I play. Later.

30:38

Zero I be seen. These

30:40

things allow for asynchronous communication and

30:42

actually owning mentioned that there can

30:45

be problems with that. But.

30:47

For the most part, I've seen it work incredibly

30:49

well. If you look at

30:51

the Cosmos ecosystem right now and things like

30:53

skip a p i was against Ip see

30:55

you can do like. Multiple

30:58

pops across different

31:00

vaccines. Doing interactions on

31:03

all of them and having fallback cases.

31:05

It's anywhere in the along the line

31:07

at fails. See, you can send

31:09

a token from one chain. By.

31:12

Nasa on the other send to a

31:14

third. By. To manage to

31:16

his move it will market deposited.

31:19

Aro. Centre back to the source

31:21

said like all and one slow. And.

31:24

That's incredible. Am I

31:26

saying if we want this system

31:28

to stay on. The.

31:30

Way that we needed to over

31:33

like millions and millions of users.

31:35

Like building out that interoperability across

31:37

the systems of options is in

31:40

the importance. And.

31:43

I think the way the initial is how

31:45

that so far as we just happen to

31:47

I B C which is one of the

31:49

most robust and just longstanding. Methods.

31:52

Of communication. Am

31:54

across multiple to conduct answer every

31:56

rule a pioneer said despite being

31:58

indifferent the hands as. full access

32:00

to IBC and full access

32:02

to skip API so they can just plug in

32:04

and start playing with that. So

32:08

sorry, just to really

32:10

figure this out, like the

32:13

most cartoonish example that I'm going to

32:15

give possible is on we saw a

32:17

D gen chain roll back 500,000 blocks.

32:20

And so like, can you

32:23

just talk a little bit about like, I guess

32:25

to take that a little bit further, right? Like

32:28

that, let's say that you

32:30

borrowed assets from something on D gen

32:32

chain, and then like you're doing something

32:34

on whatever

32:37

Rex chain, and then on D

32:39

gen chain, there's a 500,000 reorg, so that

32:41

the borrow that you did

32:44

disappears from state history. And

32:47

I don't really know what the implications

32:49

are for that in general. But for

32:51

initia, like is that one something that

32:53

you need to worry about? And two,

32:55

like, how do you like this is

32:57

the the basically biggest selling

33:00

point of integrated blockchains is that like everything

33:02

moves together, you don't have to worry about

33:04

what's going on on different like

33:07

parallel infrastructures. Is

33:09

that something you need to worry about with initia?

33:11

And if so, like how do you build systems

33:14

that kind of like

33:16

counteract that risk? Right?

33:18

That's why I like asynchronous execution,

33:20

essentially, because you don't have

33:23

to worry about like, those,

33:26

those breaks across the entire system. And

33:28

you don't have to have like a

33:30

full awareness of what's going on every

33:32

chain with asynchronous execution,

33:34

or composability, you can basically

33:36

create these like the understanding

33:39

that there needs to be

33:41

certain periods of waiting before

33:44

something can continue. And I

33:46

think on I'm not exactly sure of what happened

33:48

on dgen chain. But in at

33:50

least in the cosmos landscape, which is where I

33:52

spend a lot of my time, like these types

33:54

of rollbacks don't happen as frequently because you

33:57

do have sets of validators.

34:00

So on Inisha, our rollups actually

34:02

have sets of decentralized

34:04

sequencers. So we use Comet

34:06

BFT underneath every single one of them. So

34:10

I don't think the same rollback

34:12

situations can exist, um,

34:14

or at least are a lot harder to happen.

34:17

So for the most part, teams don't need to worry about that.

34:20

When it comes to use cases, as John

34:22

mentioned earlier, I think, uh, aside from like

34:25

the ability to segment your application and focus

34:27

on one piece of the puzzle, uh,

34:30

I think app chains also have a great

34:34

product market fit when it comes to building for

34:36

unique communities. So DJI

34:38

chain is a great example that

34:40

you mentioned, right? Like it captured

34:42

a very targeted set and audience

34:44

of users within the crypto space

34:46

and basically gave them this home

34:48

ground to play in. So

34:51

I think we're going to see a lot more

34:53

app chains that are built for communities that

34:55

are specific to basically everything that this one

34:58

group of people wants to do. And they

35:00

can do it together on a certain chain

35:03

rather than putting that on a

35:05

monolithic chain, because I think it's a lot harder to

35:07

split up the tribe that way. Um,

35:10

and I'm also excited to see

35:12

temporary blockchains. I think

35:15

what's cool about the app chain future is that

35:17

you can spin up a blockchain for maybe like

35:19

two weeks and that can exist

35:21

for a specific purpose and then it can

35:23

die. And so like temporary, like Canary networks,

35:26

test nets kind of thing, or

35:28

even just to like mint an NFT collection. Kind

35:31

of. Right. The idea

35:33

of like that I'm most bullish on on

35:35

temporary blockchains is let's say that you have

35:38

like a very computationally heavy NFT mint, but

35:40

once like all the computation is done, you

35:42

just, they're just like ERC 20 token or

35:44

sorry, ERC, whatever you said it as, right?

35:46

And there's not a lot of computation there.

35:49

And so what if you spin up a temporary blockchain

35:51

to do the mint and do like all of the

35:53

hard part, and then once it's done, you say we're

35:56

done with this blockchain. Now we just have these assets

35:58

on the L1. Continue.

36:02

That's pretty sick. I

36:05

have a, this is more off topic,

36:07

but I have a crazier question for Keone. Um,

36:10

so I watched like one of your podcasts

36:13

recently and you talked about how in like

36:15

end game, you might have multiple

36:17

monads, like monad one, monad two,

36:19

monad three. Um, does

36:23

that apply to like app specific use

36:25

cases? So like a monad for like,

36:28

like a order book style thing, or is this

36:31

something more like your fragmenting

36:33

state just to like handle all the,

36:35

all the load, um,

36:38

different layers, um, if that makes sense.

36:40

Yeah. I love to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. It's,

36:43

I mean, at the end of the

36:45

day, um, monad is really an effort

36:47

to improve computational density of a network.

36:49

Meaning that, you know, one network

36:52

with hundreds or thousands of nodes

36:54

should be able to process tens

36:56

of thousands of transactions per second,

36:59

or, you know, a billion or

37:01

two billion gas per second,

37:03

something like that. Um, but ultimately

37:05

there will be a limit to the

37:09

computational density of such a network.

37:12

Um, it just so happens that right now, um,

37:14

we're not like with existing systems are

37:17

not close to that limit because there's

37:19

still a ton of resources

37:21

on the computer and those

37:23

main resources being networking bandwidth,

37:27

um, bandwidth to accessing data

37:29

from the SSD, um,

37:31

CPU time and state growth. Those are

37:34

the four biggest resources

37:36

that we're always trading off, um, when

37:38

building any blockchain system there, like all

37:40

those are finite. So they're obviously like,

37:43

you can't get infinite TPS, um,

37:45

just from a single network. Um,

37:47

there are ways to increase

37:50

the overall throughput by sacrificing

37:52

on decentralization, um,

37:55

for example, by making the bandwidth

37:57

requirement for each node

37:59

that is. participating in the network higher,

38:02

but that obviously has significant

38:04

trade-offs and we don't want that. So I

38:06

think at some point it will be the

38:08

case that we

38:11

hit the saturation point

38:13

with respect to

38:16

the hardware and then at that point it is

38:18

time to start

38:21

launching multiple monads that are maybe more, I

38:25

don't know how they would be

38:27

organized you kind of alluded

38:30

to the idea of like maybe Monad 2

38:32

is like the World of Warcraft environment

38:35

that has like the game and then all

38:37

the things that are related to the game

38:40

like shops and armor

38:42

modification stalls and what have

38:44

you. The

38:46

social network that's for people that play

38:48

World of Warcraft, who knows? That

38:50

would maybe all be like within one instance

38:52

but my point was just that there's ultimately

38:54

going to be a limit and when we

38:56

hit the limit that's

38:59

the time at which it makes sense to start creating

39:03

multiple instances and that's how one

39:05

can scale. What I

39:07

think doesn't necessarily make as much sense is

39:10

like trying to go to that multi-instance world

39:15

prior to saturating the capacity

39:17

of the actual hardware. So

39:20

like if we have a network that's

39:22

like 100 TPS of throughput and then we're

39:24

like, okay, we want to get to 10,000 so

39:26

we need 100 different instances. That's just not very good.

39:29

It's not a good use of resources. So

39:31

saturate first and then start

39:33

doing a horizontal scaling. Yeah,

39:38

and now that we, since you said the

39:40

word hardware, I want to take us a

39:42

little bit to this conversation and let me

39:45

introduce another spectrum, right? So on one

39:47

side we have Ethereum which believes like

39:49

the goal should be to minimize the

39:51

hardware requirements so that like anyone can

39:54

participate and on the other side we

39:56

have, let's say Solana who believes like

39:58

we have modern. computing, let's

40:00

max out what's possible on the

40:02

metal and like use modern computing.

40:06

I guess for both of you guys, where

40:08

did where does Anishia and Monad fall on

40:10

that spectrum? And then more

40:12

the more interesting question is like, how

40:15

based on where you fall on

40:17

that spectrum, do you see your

40:19

path to decentralization? And like, really,

40:22

like how important is decentralization at each?

40:25

Sorry, this is more just an Anishia question,

40:28

but at like each layer, how important is

40:30

decentralization in order to have a

40:32

like fully decentralized, holistic system.

40:34

So maybe we'll start with Keonie, you guys

40:36

can compare like L1s first, and then we'll

40:38

move on to the L2 on the Anishia

40:40

side. Yeah, I think

40:42

that's a really great point. And it is also

40:45

a reason why in

40:47

the end state of the world, there are

40:49

probably still, you know,

40:52

multiple different blockchains that each

40:54

are the optimum relative

40:57

to the specific

41:00

specification of the problem that

41:02

has been chosen. And by specification, I mean,

41:06

hardware requirements on the nodes. I

41:09

mean, bandwidth requirements on the nodes, I mean,

41:11

number of nodes targeted for the system. And

41:14

I think for any particular spec that

41:16

you choose, there, you know, we could

41:19

grade like how efficient the

41:21

system is at getting the most

41:23

performance given that spec. So,

41:27

you know, with all that said, I would agree with

41:29

you that on the spectrum of

41:31

like Ethereum on one side to Solana on

41:34

the other is actually there, there are many

41:36

blockchains that are further out on the spectrum

41:38

beyond Solana as well. You know, because like,

41:41

while it is true that hardware requirements on Solana

41:44

are quite high, currently 256 gigs of

41:47

RAM, which is a very high amount of

41:49

RAM, very expensive to run a node. On

41:51

the other hand, there are other blockchains that also

41:54

have similarly high hardware requirements,

41:56

but then also have far fewer nodes. Solana has a few

41:58

other things that I wanted to talk about. has, I think,

42:00

3000 nodes participating in consensus.

42:03

Like, that is actually really impressive

42:05

because there are blockchains that have

42:07

like 50 nodes or

42:10

25 nodes, and that's a

42:12

huge hit to decentralization. So, you know, I

42:14

just wanted to say like on the spectrum,

42:16

like between Ethereum and then Solana, and then

42:18

even beyond, you know, like, if

42:21

we're talking about like Mercury or Mercury

42:23

and then like Jupiter, there's like some that

42:25

are out at Pluto. So,

42:27

Monad is trying to stay as close

42:29

to Ethereum as possible with

42:32

respect to both the hardware

42:34

requirements and the targeted number of nodes.

42:37

So, for example, with Ethereum, the hardware

42:40

requirement, I believe, is 16 gigs of

42:42

RAM and Monad is 32 gigs

42:44

of RAM. So, it's still

42:46

very close. It's still a reasonable

42:49

request for node operators. RAM

42:52

is really expensive. So, if you want 256 gigs,

42:55

that's going to be, you know,

42:57

like a $10,000 node that probably costs

43:00

like $300, $500 per month from AWS. But

43:05

with 32 gigs of RAM, it's

43:07

still a very reasonable request. And

43:10

then in terms of number of nodes, the target

43:12

right now is about 200 nodes participating in consensus

43:15

with the goal of increasing that over time

43:17

with additional improvements. So, yeah, the

43:19

goal is really to stay as close

43:21

to the Sun as

43:24

possible in my solar analogy to really

43:27

stay close to Ethereum in terms of

43:29

both hardware requirements and number of nodes.

43:39

I'm always starting to initiate the layer one. We also

43:41

have the belief that we should be close to that

43:43

Sun. I think

43:45

validator nodes on Inisha right

43:48

now run with about 16 gigs of RAM.

43:50

So, it's not too intensive. It

43:53

is a Cosmos SDK

43:55

based chain on the layer one. So, for

43:58

the most part, they don't get too intense. There

44:01

are some improvements like things with

44:03

optimistic execution that we are

44:05

working on that might require the

44:07

bump to something like 32 gigs. But

44:10

aside from that, the hardware requirements aren't

44:12

too intensive and what's that

44:15

is because we use a vertical

44:18

scaling approach. So because of

44:20

a lot of the transactions and just

44:22

processing being done on these individual app

44:24

chains, for the most part, they

44:26

don't need to deal with anything on the layer one. The

44:29

only time the layer one gets tapped in is

44:31

for things like cross chain communication or

44:34

providing resources to these L2s.

44:37

So Oracle's, CCTP

44:39

Access, all that sort of fun stuff.

44:43

On the layer two side of things, I think decentralization

44:46

is important. I think one of the

44:49

main downsides of rollups has always been

44:51

the fact that we have these centralized

44:53

sequencer sets. A

44:56

single sequencer that can be

44:58

shut down and then break the chain. Funds

45:01

are not lost, which is great,

45:05

but that is a single point of failure. And

45:09

sovereign rollups are, I

45:11

think, even worse because they don't

45:13

have things like fraud proofs or rollbacks.

45:15

Like if a sovereign chains node gets

45:17

down, you're just your bot. And

45:20

so on, initially we need to at

45:22

bare minimum have a rollbacks game,

45:25

have fraud proving, and also have decentralized

45:27

sets of sequencers. So

45:30

the interesting thing about our layer twos is

45:32

that they're full fledged Cosmos SDK chains, which

45:34

means that they have common BFT underneath. So

45:37

we can have a set

45:40

of sequencers that

45:42

are essentially coming to consensus on blocks

45:44

very quick because there's not too many

45:46

of them. They are

45:48

then posting data to the

45:50

layer one and to the DA layer after

45:53

certain intervals. I think this

45:55

is a slow path to

45:58

decentralization. with single

46:00

sequencer. Now we have a set of

46:03

decentralized sequencers and soon we'll be applying

46:05

basically different types of stake to those

46:07

sequencers so that they can even be

46:09

slashed. But for the most

46:11

part it's right now like a big

46:13

multi-sick. What is

46:15

cool about having small sequencer

46:18

sets is you can really max

46:20

out chains. So we

46:22

have gone upwards of 10,000

46:24

TPS very easily because the

46:27

biggest problem to get those numbers

46:29

is P2P for the most part

46:31

with us. And the bigger

46:33

that network is the harder it

46:35

is to like come to consensus with all

46:37

the other validator nodes. So by

46:39

having a small set of around five we

46:42

can achieve 10,000 TPS on

46:44

those layer twos pretty easily. So

46:48

just to summarize what we said

46:50

here, correct both of you confirm

46:52

or fix this. It sounds like

46:54

on the layer one for both

46:57

these projects we want to like

46:59

draft on a lot of the

47:01

ideals of Ethereum which is relatively

47:03

like low requirements to foster as

47:05

diverse and like distributed a validator

47:08

or a node set as possible. And

47:11

then on the Monad side the idea

47:13

is we're going to be just a

47:15

lot more clever about how we build

47:18

the technology that allows like these similar

47:20

sides and nodes to like just rip

47:22

so much harder than the standard EVM.

47:24

And then on the Anishia side it's

47:27

we are going to push all of

47:29

the execution and the

47:31

throughput up to up one layer

47:34

where decentralization

47:36

is less important and therefore we can

47:38

make the trade off into performance

47:41

because all of the

47:43

benefits of decentralization and credible neutrality are

47:45

maintained on the L1. Does that

47:48

sound right to both of you?

47:52

Yeah. Awesome.

47:55

So John let's spend the rest of our

47:57

time talking about some more fun stuff. Well,

48:00

let's talk about building community

48:02

and what

48:05

it means in the initial world and the Monad world.

48:07

John, do you want to take it away?

48:09

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, Monad

48:12

is probably the shining

48:14

example of how to build a community recently.

48:18

Initia has been doing some really cool stuff,

48:20

some great educational posts, some memes as well.

48:23

So we'll have to learn what your strategy

48:25

around that, a quick spiel about that would

48:27

be great. Also, maybe your favorite

48:29

memes in the community that you've seen,

48:31

anything fun like that. So I'll

48:34

start with John. On

48:39

Initia, I think our community plan has always

48:41

been work from the ground up. I

48:44

think at the end of the day, your community is

48:46

the most important group that

48:48

you're working with because they are the end

48:50

users. They are the

48:52

people that you want to be your

48:54

forever fans because they're going to be

48:57

the way that you attract new users

48:59

in the future. It's

49:01

a lot more powerful for a user

49:03

of a blockchain to introduce their

49:05

friend to your ecosystem than it

49:07

is for you to slide

49:10

by a Twitter post and be convinced. And

49:13

so I think that is why both

49:15

Monad and us have been so

49:17

focused on trying to grow a

49:19

natural community. I

49:21

think it's really bad to focus on just

49:24

steps. We're not trying to

49:26

tell people to use certain

49:28

quest mechanics to follow us on Twitter

49:30

or get in our Discord. I think

49:32

growing organically is important. One

49:35

of the ways that we've been able to target them is

49:39

just by tapping into a fun

49:43

ecosystem and Web3 ethos. So

49:46

we do a lot of anime

49:48

posting. There's

49:50

a lot of people that cross over between

49:52

the anime land and the crypto land. And

49:55

then we try and hold regular events

49:57

within our ecosystem, whether that be in

49:59

Discord. and whatnot. We

50:01

also realized that you don't

50:04

want to be mid-curve when it comes

50:06

to going in an ecosystem. You should

50:08

do a barbell strategy. So have both

50:10

left-curve content and right-curve content, whether

50:13

that be trying to nerd-snipe people with

50:16

very technical, in-depth posts, or

50:18

whether that be trying to educate

50:20

new people and bring them into

50:22

the crypto world and to what

50:25

we're building on Inisha through memes

50:27

and generic educational content. I would

50:29

echo what Zaun said.

50:31

I think

50:33

it's maybe also good to talk

50:35

about why community is important in

50:37

crypto overall. I think

50:39

that decentralized tech

50:42

is really important to

50:44

society. It's really important

50:48

for leveling the playing

50:50

field, giving people

50:52

who are unbanked access to tools

50:54

that allow them to

50:56

manage personal finance. It

50:59

gives people tools for tapping

51:06

into a global set of resources,

51:09

as well as even global

51:11

currencies and

51:13

avoiding having to use

51:15

systems where they're forced to

51:18

bank in their local currency.

51:20

That local currency is

51:22

highly inflationary. So

51:25

I think there are a lot of good

51:27

examples from emerging countries where people actually

51:30

have a really significant

51:32

benefit from utilizing decentralized

51:35

tech. So that's one big thing.

51:38

Another big thing is just the

51:40

transparency of applications

51:43

that are on the blockchain. We

51:45

have full accounting of

51:47

reserves, health of every position.

51:49

There's just something like FTX

51:53

can't happen, cannot happen on

51:55

a decentralized

51:59

world. with decentralized finance.

52:01

So there are specific reasons why

52:03

I think that decentralized

52:06

tech is really important to the world, but

52:09

the vector by which it

52:11

spreads is actually through community. It's

52:14

through like Zaun was saying word of mouth, like

52:16

telling your friends, hey, there's

52:18

actually a better way to, you know, for us

52:21

to split the bill rather than using Venmo. Like

52:23

I can just send you USDC and it's really

52:25

fast and really cheap or,

52:29

hey, yeah, instead of paying these

52:31

high ATM fees, like you can actually just

52:34

use a bank

52:36

on the blockchain. So

52:39

the, you know, the spread

52:41

of this technology is really coming

52:43

through community. And so it's really important

52:45

for every crypto project

52:47

to understand the importance

52:49

of community and value community

52:51

appropriately. And

52:54

I think I'm really proud of what our team has

52:56

done at Monad because we've really

52:58

put a huge emphasis and

53:03

value on growing community.

53:05

And in

53:08

this early stage of the project, you know,

53:11

pre main net, there's, we've already

53:14

managed to cultivate a

53:16

community that is true to, I

53:20

think a lot of the ideals

53:23

of crypto and decentralization and is

53:25

also really fun. And is this

53:27

incredible, has

53:31

this incredible ability to create memes.

53:34

And when I

53:36

say memes, I don't even just mean like

53:38

images. I mean like mimetic ideas that spread

53:41

and they can ultimately carry the values

53:43

and the culture. You

53:46

know, two other things. One is I saw on Twitter

53:48

the other day that Joe

53:50

Biden's campaign is trying to hire a meme

53:52

manager because they realize

53:55

that memes are super important

53:57

to appealing to the younger

53:59

generation the word

54:01

of Joe Biden's campaign out there. But

54:04

in the same way, crypto

54:06

has discovered the power

54:08

of mematic

54:11

transmission of values and ideas.

54:15

So I think that's an obvious testament

54:17

to what the crypto culture, crypto community

54:19

has been able to do. And

54:22

I expect to see a lot more of that in the real

54:25

world. It's like crypto brain

54:27

leaking out into the real world. And

54:30

then one other thing is that At

54:35

Intern, who's a member of

54:38

our team, published a post yesterday

54:40

about growing community

54:42

and things that

54:45

we see other projects doing that are

54:47

pitfalls and offered

54:49

some insights into the right

54:52

way to grow community. And so I would

54:54

definitely recommend everyone check it out. But

54:57

the summary is like,

55:00

community is the most important thing. Every

55:03

project should really value

55:05

community very highly and be

55:08

very wary of asking the community to

55:10

do mindless tasks that are a waste

55:12

of the community's time and

55:14

that aren't actually productive. So

55:17

questing platforms, while they create a

55:19

little bit of a nicotine hit, like

55:24

you set up a questing platform and

55:26

then immediately set up a

55:28

quest that says like follow Monet

55:30

XYZ on Twitter and you'll get five points. Once

55:33

you set that up immediately, like a ton of

55:35

robots will go do the quest and you'll get

55:37

a bunch of followers, but it's not actually good.

55:40

And in fact, it's actually bad

55:42

because it dilutes the contributions of

55:44

actual humans who actually might care

55:46

about the project and

55:49

you're sending exactly the wrong message to

55:51

the community by setting up that questing

55:53

platform. Anyway, point is like,

55:55

you know, there's some lessons that we've taken

55:57

from. Almost

56:00

two years of building community and we

56:02

want other projects to benefit

56:05

from those lessons and take that

56:07

and improve their community building

56:09

because ultimately that's what helps crypto grow.

56:13

And yeah, just would encourage anyone to reach

56:15

out to add intern

56:18

or to myself or other members of

56:20

the team if you're

56:22

having trouble with this and we can

56:25

try to help as well. Man,

56:28

that's a super good insight and

56:30

like, not that you say it is

56:32

obvious, like all good ideas. But I

56:34

think one of the

56:36

reasons people find themselves going down

56:39

these like quest type things is

56:41

because it is incredibly challenging to

56:43

build community before you have a

56:46

product. And

56:48

before you have something for people to really

56:50

like understand why they what

56:52

this community is and like what

56:54

you're building. And so I guess for

56:57

both of you guys, this is less a question about

56:59

like the power of

57:01

community and like general purpose question

57:03

and more specific to founders, which

57:05

is like, what are concrete things

57:07

you can do to build community

57:10

before you're ready to give the

57:12

community what they're there to like

57:15

why they've gathered? Yeah,

57:18

I mean, a couple of quick points just

57:21

off the top of my head.

57:23

Number one is just being very

57:25

present, being genuine, sharing real thoughts

57:27

and insights. You

57:29

know, the broader crypto community is

57:31

probably curious about, you know, even

57:34

as an early stage founder, like what the

57:37

vision is and how you got to

57:39

where you are and like what you're

57:41

learning. I think there's

57:43

an element of building in public that

57:46

we value in the crypto community. And

57:48

we talk about that in the context

57:51

of, you know, code and like,

57:53

you know, just putting whatever like messy code you

57:55

have out there. But there's also

57:57

a notion of just like building the

57:59

project. in public and sharing insights.

58:03

I think the other thing is just, you

58:07

know, like when, you know,

58:09

when there are community members who are contributing

58:13

at a high level or making like

58:15

a really good meme relative to the

58:17

quality of memes that you have right

58:19

now, it's just important to

58:22

give them acknowledgement and to say, hey, thanks, like

58:24

that's, that was really good. That

58:26

was really awesome. And I think, you know, just

58:28

doing the logical thing creates

58:31

positive feedback loops that ultimately

58:33

result in, you know, over

58:35

time, over a long period of time, the right outcome.

58:38

I would also say there aren't really shortcuts.

58:40

So, you know,

58:42

it's not something you can just do overnight. If you're trying

58:45

to launch the main net like three months from now, and

58:47

you're just starting to build community right now, then, you

58:50

know, then there's a tendency to panic and that

58:52

results in people choosing the questing options,

58:54

but just starting early

58:56

and being consistent about participating,

58:58

being a part of the community. And

59:03

yeah, just like also thinking about like what people

59:05

want, like what would cause them to see the

59:07

community as like something they want to be a

59:09

part of. It's definitely not

59:12

like doing mindless tasks. What is it that

59:14

would cause people to like enjoy being

59:17

part of the community that is

59:19

growing in this like specific project?

59:24

Aside from that, I would say, or it is very

59:26

similar to that is your time.

59:29

I think as any team

59:31

or founder, what you're working on is

59:33

incredibly important. And yes, you're spending a

59:35

lot of time like building

59:37

the actual product, but

59:40

part of the product in is

59:42

your community. Like we've been saying, they are the

59:45

most important aspect. And

59:48

so I think it's just imperative that

59:51

you spend time in the community as well. One

59:54

way to really gauge this is if you go

59:56

look at Keoni's Twitter and you click the replies

59:58

tab, you'll see... see that the vast

1:00:01

majority of his tweets are replying to other

1:00:03

community members, thanking them for the

1:00:05

art that they've built or they've made. I

1:00:08

think it's very important that founders directly

1:00:10

engage with people. Understand

1:00:13

their pain points, talk to them, see what they

1:00:15

want, see what your customers actually

1:00:18

need. I would just say spend

1:00:20

time with those people and that's

1:00:22

how you'll grow it. Yeah, it's been

1:00:24

a great time talking with you guys. Let's

1:00:26

wrap it up. If you guys

1:00:29

want to tell us what's upcoming for your

1:00:31

projects, where to find you offline,

1:00:34

what's the call to action for you guys, start

1:00:37

with Zahn. Sure.

1:00:42

Quite an exciting week

1:00:44

it's been for Inisha. We launched

1:00:46

our public testnet last week called the

1:00:48

Initiation. It's been a long time

1:00:50

coming over a year and a half and it

1:00:53

has been extraordinary.

1:00:56

It's finally being able to

1:00:58

see the work that we've done come

1:01:00

to light and all of the

1:01:02

different applications that we've built and the teams

1:01:04

we've been working with just live on testnet.

1:01:07

One of the main things we've been doing is

1:01:09

within this multi-chain world that we're building, I

1:01:12

think aside from the architecture, the

1:01:14

product infrastructure is incredibly

1:01:17

important because it's what ties

1:01:19

the end-users experience together. We

1:01:22

spent a long time rebuilding our

1:01:24

explorer system, our app system, what

1:01:27

it's like to move around these blockchains and for the

1:01:29

first time users can see and interact

1:01:31

with this. We launched

1:01:33

with seven different chains at the same time.

1:01:36

Six rollups all with real

1:01:38

applications on them built by

1:01:40

amazing teams as well as the

1:01:43

initial layer one. Just

1:01:45

over a week that this has been out,

1:01:47

we have nearly 17 million

1:01:49

transactions across the network, over

1:01:52

a million unique active wallets that have

1:01:54

been there daily. We

1:01:57

have a very fun program where you

1:01:59

basically create. on-chain pet and

1:02:02

it's like Tamagotchi. So by

1:02:04

exploring a bit of the ecosystem and

1:02:06

just trying out some of these things

1:02:08

where you can give us feedback, you

1:02:10

slowly build up your Jenny the dog

1:02:12

and evolve her. So

1:02:14

that is the most exciting

1:02:17

thing that's happened on Inisha lately and

1:02:19

that's gonna last for about eight weeks

1:02:21

before we hopefully go into maintenance. Awesome

1:02:27

and on the Monat side check

1:02:30

out the Monat community on Twitter

1:02:33

monat underscore XYZ

1:02:35

and you know

1:02:37

from there you'll find links to Discord

1:02:40

and Telegram and a lot

1:02:42

of other places to start participating

1:02:44

in the Monat community. There's

1:02:48

no testnet just yet so Monat is

1:02:50

a little bit further down

1:02:52

the pipe relative to Inisha but

1:02:55

we'll have more news to share

1:02:57

hopefully shortly. I'm really excited for

1:02:59

what's to come in 2024. Awesome

1:03:03

guys well thank you so much Zon

1:03:05

congratulations on the launch of the testnet

1:03:07

and Keone we are just sitting

1:03:10

here waiting super excited but you guys

1:03:12

both of you thank you so much

1:03:15

for just helping us understand both your

1:03:17

projects but more importantly like how the

1:03:19

ecosystem that we're in is evolving and

1:03:21

what these concepts means and the trade-offs

1:03:24

that they're like actually putting in front

1:03:26

of us so I'm just really

1:03:28

appreciate it and thank you for your time.