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tracking your car's value with your

1:01

garage on cars.com. Hey

1:07

there,

1:09

it's Stephen Dubner. We recently published

1:11

a three-part series on immigration, mostly about

1:14

the economics of immigration. The

1:16

first two episodes were focused on the US

1:18

and part three on Canada,

1:20

which has recently turned the volume way

1:22

up on immigration. They now take in

1:25

half a million new permanent residents a

1:27

year in a country of around 40

1:30

million. For that episode, we interviewed

1:32

a variety of people, including Canada's

1:34

immigration minister, Mark Miller. There

1:37

is no doubt that we have made a

1:39

conscious decision to be an open country and

1:41

a country that needs to grow. The

1:43

reality is we don't have much of

1:46

a choice. Miller's point

1:48

was that Canada, like many high-income

1:50

countries, has an aging population and

1:53

a need for more workers in many sectors

1:55

of the economy. We did

1:57

ask Miller about the pressures that

1:59

immigration is putting on Canada, especially

2:01

when it comes to affordable housing, access

2:04

to healthcare, and potential

2:06

mismatches between immigrants and jobs.

2:09

But after we put out that episode,

2:11

a lot of our Canadian listeners wrote

2:13

in to say the pressures were even

2:16

greater than we knew, especially because Canada

2:18

wasn't taking in just a half million

2:20

new permanent residents a year, but nearly

2:22

700,000 international students and

2:25

750,000 temporary foreign workers. So

2:29

we decided to revisit some of

2:31

these questions, not with the Minister

2:33

of Immigration, but with his boss,

2:36

the Prime Minister. You

2:40

can invite half a

2:42

million people into your home every

2:44

year if you're Canada. Today

2:47

on Freakadomics Radio, my conversation

2:49

with Canadian Prime Minister Justin

2:51

Trudeau. And we

2:53

go way beyond immigration. We discuss

2:55

whether to drill baby drill. We

2:58

talk about how Canada is reconciling

3:00

its brutal history with its indigenous

3:03

population. We hear why

3:05

Trudeau isn't a big cannabis user, even

3:07

though he legalized it, and

3:09

what he might do if he

3:11

loses reelection next year. I'm

3:14

ultimately a social activist who's going to look to

3:16

how I can have a positive impact on the

3:18

world. You will also hear in

3:20

the course of this conversation at least one

3:22

hockey reference. Oh,

3:25

Canada, Justin Trudeau, possibly the

3:27

most polite Prime Minister in

3:29

the world. He

3:31

most definitely stands on guard for

3:33

thee. Justin

4:03

Trudeau's father, Pierre, was also Prime Minister of

4:05

Canada for more than 15 years.

4:08

He represented the Liberal Party, as does

4:10

his son. Justin Trudeau

4:12

was elected in 2015 after nine

4:14

years of rule by the Conservative

4:17

Prime Minister Stephen Harper. So

4:19

Trudeau has now served nine years of

4:21

his own. And how have

4:24

those years gone? When you look

4:26

at the macro level, it's been

4:28

a rock and roll few years. From

4:30

Canada's perspective, I get

4:32

in and then we're dealing with Trumpism

4:34

in our major partner and best friend.

4:37

We're dealing with increased massive climate change,

4:39

including wildfires that smoked out New York

4:41

last year. Yeah, thanks for that. You're

4:44

welcome. Well, you guys did enough years

4:46

of acid rain for us that I

4:48

think it evens out. We're

4:50

dealing with a pandemic that sort of

4:52

shook the world in its foundations. We're

4:55

talking about transformation of the world

4:57

of work, of AI, of robotics.

4:59

We're talking about inflation and interest

5:01

rates. There's just so much

5:03

uncertainty. Of course, people are going to

5:05

look at whoever's at the top and say, oh my God,

5:08

this is their time and this is all going wrong. Indeed,

5:11

Trudeau is facing record low

5:13

approval ratings. In the

5:15

past two elections, his Liberal Party failed to

5:17

win a majority and things aren't looking good

5:19

for next year's election either. But

5:21

Trudeau is free to run again and

5:24

again. Canada

5:26

has no term limits. And

5:28

as you have perhaps already gathered,

5:30

Trudeau projects a measured view of

5:32

these things. Or maybe

5:35

his measured view is strategic. In

5:38

2014, just before running for prime minister the first

5:40

time, he published a memoir

5:42

called Common Ground. He

5:44

writes about the jobs he had

5:47

before his political career. He wrote

5:49

about the future, camp counselor, white

5:51

water river guide, snowboarding instructor, bartender

5:53

and even bouncer at a bar in

5:55

Whistler, British Columbia. Whether

5:58

you are trying to assert your will in a

6:00

bar room confrontation or a

6:02

political altercation, he writes, the

6:05

biggest obstacle to overcome is the human

6:07

ego. Once a disagreement

6:09

begins, no one wants to back down.

6:12

The trick is to find a

6:14

way for your opponent to save

6:16

face, like leaving the aggressive drunk

6:19

waving his fist in triumph, but

6:21

in the rain. Meanwhile

6:23

you're inside, staying warm and dry

6:25

and getting your job done. On

6:29

Ground reads primarily like a book

6:31

designed to launch a successful political

6:33

campaign, which it was and which

6:35

it did. But it's also

6:38

interesting and thoughtful. Trudeau writes

6:40

of his privileged idyllic boyhood, growing

6:42

up the son of a popular

6:44

prime minister and a much younger

6:46

mother, Margaret Trudeau, a legendary

6:48

free spirit who years later revealed

6:51

she had been suffering from bipolar

6:53

disorder. Justin's parents split

6:55

up when he was a boy while his father

6:57

was still in office. And

6:59

just last year, Justin Trudeau split

7:02

from his wife, Sophie. Father

7:05

and son prime ministers, both

7:07

seeing a marriage disintegrate while in

7:09

office, both with three school aged

7:11

children. Pierre Trudeau

7:14

responded by doubling down on

7:16

his devotion to job and

7:18

country. And his son seems

7:20

to be doing the same thing. Last

7:22

week, Justin Trudeau's government announced its

7:25

2024 budget, which lays out a

7:27

muscular progressive agenda with big spending

7:29

on housing, health care and clean

7:32

energy. Given what

7:34

seems to be a rather fragile

7:36

and fraught moment in world affairs,

7:39

I asked Trudeau how he would tell the

7:41

story of Canada right now. Well,

7:44

to tell the story right, you have to go

7:46

back to 2015 when I first got elected, where

7:50

the world was still reeling a bit from

7:52

the aftershocks of the 2008 recession, the financial

7:55

crisis, that saw the economy

7:58

bounce back. wages

8:00

not bounce back. And there was

8:02

a sense that the system wasn't

8:04

working for the middle class anymore.

8:06

There was a hollowing out, there

8:08

was an anxiety that, whether it's

8:10

the American dream or Canada's promise

8:12

of progress, that it didn't hold

8:14

to the same way. And we

8:17

saw that in Canada and we'd had

8:19

a Conservative government for about 10 years.

8:21

And I said, okay, let's respond to

8:24

that with a focus on the middle

8:26

class that actually invests in community. First

8:28

thing we did was raise taxes on the

8:30

wealthiest 1%, so we could lower them

8:33

for the middle class. We showed up with

8:35

a Canada child benefit to put more money

8:37

in people's pockets, hundreds of dollars a month

8:39

tax free that sort of helped move things

8:41

along. And we started investing in

8:43

Canada, we started investing in fighting climate

8:46

change, we started investing in reconciliation with

8:48

Indigenous peoples, and we started to say,

8:50

okay, how can we make the economy

8:52

work for everyone in meaningful ways? We

8:55

were responding to the forces that

8:58

in other places got translated into

9:00

populism. You think of the American election in

9:02

2016, the very next year, where

9:05

it was a Conservative populist

9:07

win by Trump over a

9:09

more progressive, interventionist government, and

9:11

that went towards an aggressive

9:13

populism that was a very different

9:16

path. But the path that we took in Canada,

9:18

I think, has held us in very,

9:20

very good stead. It was one of the

9:22

things that saw us through the pandemic better

9:24

than just about any other of our peer

9:26

countries. We bounced back faster, we had a

9:29

way lower death rate, the vaccination rates

9:31

were higher, there was a thoughtfulness and

9:33

a reasonableness in how we did things

9:35

that didn't... You did have some pushback,

9:37

you had the trucker strike and rally

9:39

and so on, right? Yes. And you

9:41

did see what you might see as

9:43

the roots of a sort of American

9:45

style or British style, whatever populism coming

9:47

up, yes, very much. Oh, yeah, no.

9:49

And it all goes to the point

9:51

that Canada isn't some magical place where

9:53

the same principles don't apply everywhere else.

9:55

We have the same kinds of anxiety

9:57

and populism and frustration and... amplification

10:00

of fears by certain political

10:02

parties instead of trying to

10:04

solve problems. The Conservative administration

10:07

that preceded you, how

10:09

much more conservative, not only was it,

10:11

than any previous Canadian administration, but how

10:14

much more conservative was it, or maybe

10:16

even populist leaning than was anticipated? Because

10:18

my sense, and I'm not

10:20

a student of Canadian government or policy, is

10:24

that it did take

10:26

people aback how un-Canadian

10:28

the Harper government was in some ways. And

10:31

I'm curious whether that's a poor read or

10:33

an accurate read. No, it's an accurate read.

10:35

It's just one that we tend to minimize

10:38

as Canadians as we look

10:41

back. Because you're polite? Because

10:43

we're polite or because recency

10:45

bias or whatever it is.

10:47

I mean, the Harper government

10:49

did things like slashing veterans

10:52

services, closing offices, muzzling our

10:54

scientists, muzzling our diplomats, really

10:57

refusing to invest in science, refusing

10:59

to take any action on climate change

11:01

in a defensive way, but also in

11:03

not seeing the opportunities because they were

11:05

beholden to oil and gas. They slashed

11:07

arts and culture funding. There was a

11:09

lot of things they were doing that

11:11

didn't make a lot of sense, and

11:13

we're somewhat un-Canadian. But at the same

11:16

time, a lot of people

11:18

are contrasting the impending

11:20

populist 2.0 approach that the

11:22

current Conservative Party is saying,

11:24

and look to a kind

11:26

of far right but

11:28

incrementalism that Harper had that

11:31

still believed that there was a role

11:33

for government in certain ways, and you

11:35

did need to intervene in certain things.

11:37

And there was a responsiveness

11:39

that I would put a little more

11:41

now in the frame of the classic

11:44

republicanism rather than the Tea Party or

11:46

the MAGA that you guys are seeing

11:48

now. And there is an

11:50

iteration now where modern

11:53

Canadian conservatism is in some

11:55

ways doing a better job

11:58

of hiding some

12:00

aspects of itself and some of

12:02

the negative and disruptive approaches they

12:04

have, but at the same

12:06

time being more unabashedly populist than someone might

12:09

have dared to a few years ago because

12:11

they've been emboldened by movements around the world.

12:14

Right. So you are, no offense,

12:16

not very popular at the moment. Looks like

12:18

about two-thirds of Canadians have a negative view

12:20

of you. When

12:22

asked why, a fifth of respondents say they're

12:25

just sick of you. Yeah. I

12:27

think that's part of a political dynasty in Canada,

12:29

which is famous and has been for many

12:31

years beloved. I'm curious from

12:33

a personal and political level, how

12:35

much do you care and pay

12:38

attention to that? Because

12:40

on the one hand, it's a political reality. On the

12:42

other hand, if you worry so much about people disliking

12:44

you, it makes it, I would think, quite hard to

12:46

do your job. And I did hear you say in

12:48

a recent interview, I think about quitting

12:51

every day. It's a crazy job I'm doing.

12:53

So I want to get a temperature check

12:55

on you at this moment. Actually, what I

12:57

said in French was, c'est une job de

12:59

malade, which means it's a job for crazy

13:02

people. I mean, there is an intensity to

13:04

this. And when you're doing

13:06

any job like this, you

13:08

have to check in regularly on the

13:10

family sacrifices on do you still have the

13:12

energy and the drive to do it? There

13:15

are always days and moments in which you

13:17

go, oh my God, haven't I done this

13:19

enough? Haven't I given enough? I can do

13:21

something else now. But

13:23

the stakes are so high. And the moment

13:25

is so real. You mentioned

13:27

the political dynasty. One of the biggest

13:30

challenges any politician

13:32

has is detaching

13:34

what people say about them from

13:36

who they actually are. I

13:39

was seven the first time I remember someone

13:41

coming up to me in the schoolyard and

13:43

saying, you know, my parents didn't vote for

13:45

your dad, so I don't like you either,

13:47

and walk away. I had to

13:50

learn early on to detach

13:52

people's opinions, sometimes

13:54

founded, mostly unfounded, that were

13:57

negative from who

13:59

I really was. but I also had to

14:01

learn because, as you mentioned, my father was also

14:03

beloved in many quarters, the people who automatically liked

14:05

me and thought I was the best thing since

14:07

splice bread without any greater

14:09

justification than that. And I developed

14:12

a strong sense of self. So

14:14

right now, I'm very much

14:16

focused on what are

14:18

we doing? How are we solving the

14:20

real challenges people are facing rather than,

14:23

you know, do people like me right

14:25

now? My sense is

14:27

that a fair share of the

14:29

unpopularity or the decline in popularity,

14:31

let's call it, is due to

14:33

the uncertainty surrounding immigration. It's a

14:35

huge move you've made.

14:38

And the arguments for increased immigration

14:40

are empirical, logical. I think people

14:42

really understand that. But of course,

14:45

every idea requires a policy

14:47

and carrying out the policy is difficult. And

14:49

then there are knock-on effects like, what

14:51

do you do about all the extra housing and

14:54

infrastructure you need and how do you amplify your

14:56

education and healthcare systems and so on? My

14:58

sense is that your new budget

15:00

is prioritizing a lot of the

15:03

needs that arise out of the

15:05

new expanded immigration and to try to win

15:07

voters back to your side in next year's

15:09

election. So could you describe for me what

15:11

you see as maybe whatever, the top two

15:14

or three actual physical priorities?

15:16

Maybe it is increased housing. Maybe it

15:18

is wages. I want to know what

15:20

you see as the major

15:22

problems that you're trying to

15:24

address through this budget. Well,

15:26

the single greatest problem is

15:28

it's a feeling that young people

15:31

have that the economy no

15:33

longer works for them. That

15:35

the system that their

15:37

grandparents and parents went through of

15:40

coming out of school, getting a good job, renting

15:43

a place while you save up a little money

15:45

for a down payment and paying a mortgage and

15:47

being able to go through life and access the

15:49

middle class, that that system no

15:52

longer works. Boomers

15:55

and exers sort of say, oh yeah, no,

15:57

it was tough for us to. No, it's

15:59

different now. It's like the rules

16:01

have changed. The economy has tilted away

16:03

from the success of young people. And

16:06

quite frankly, we need,

16:08

every economy needs its young people,

16:10

its millennials, its Gen Z's, Gen

16:12

Z's, sorry for Americans, to be

16:15

successful. Now, a lot of it

16:17

is on housing, but there's a lot of pieces

16:19

that go to that narrative that says, yeah, we're

16:21

going to ask the wealthiest 0.1% to pay

16:24

a little more by raising our capital

16:26

gains rates to levels that are close,

16:28

but still not at New York and

16:30

California's levels, but that we

16:32

are going to be investing to

16:35

make sure that young people can see

16:37

their own success because that will feed

16:39

into everyone's success. What

16:41

if I were an advisor to you

16:43

and I said, Prime Minister, we

16:46

need to really spend

16:48

our way out of this dilemma.

16:50

We need to build more housing

16:52

and infrastructure. We need to amplify

16:54

our beloved but overburdened healthcare system

16:56

and childcare and

16:58

education systems. And we

17:00

need to do it fast

17:03

because things are not going in the right direction. And

17:06

furthermore, I would say to you, the best way

17:08

to get the money to do that is not

17:10

just with higher taxes here

17:12

and there, but we need to

17:14

harvest and sell as much as

17:17

possible of our country's vast national

17:19

resources. Oil and gas, rare earth minerals,

17:22

timber, et cetera. And who knows what's

17:24

even under all that permafrost up north

17:26

that climate change may soon make available,

17:28

right? So my advice

17:30

would be this industrial policy

17:33

will save our bacon, but

17:36

it may also damage your reputation as

17:38

an environmentalist. It may damage the environment

17:40

to some degree. How do you respond

17:42

to that? I remember getting

17:44

a question from a progressive journalist many, many

17:46

years ago saying, well, how are you going

17:48

to build a knowledge economy and get off

17:50

of all that sort of the dirty products

17:52

that Canada has always been reliant on? And

17:55

I'm like, Canada remains Canada.

17:58

We have vast natural resources. We

18:00

have great energy resources and it's part

18:02

of why in an era of

18:05

protectionism, my government has been able

18:07

to sign trade deals so that we're

18:09

the only G7 country with a free

18:11

trade deal with every other G7 country

18:13

in the world. I mean we are

18:15

one of the most trade-based nations in

18:17

the world and it comes from the

18:19

fact that Canadians know we have more

18:21

stuff than we can use

18:23

ourselves because we have a small population on

18:25

a very large territory. So

18:28

developing our natural resources

18:30

is a huge part of

18:32

what we will continue to do. But

18:35

another purely Canadian conceit is,

18:37

as Wayne Gretzky once

18:39

said, going where the puck is

18:41

going as opposed to where the

18:43

puck is. And when you look

18:45

at where investments going around the

18:47

world, when you look at the

18:49

decarbonization, the ESG investment, the money

18:51

flowing around the world to places

18:53

that are doing things cleaner and

18:55

more responsible at the same

18:57

time as they are providing those necessary ingredients

19:00

for the world, you look

19:02

at our critical minerals and you realize, okay,

19:04

if China has cornered 80%, 85%

19:07

of the critical minerals market in the world

19:09

that is required to build

19:11

the economies of the future, whether it's

19:14

superconductors or EVs or whatever future we

19:16

want to build, we're going

19:18

to need reliable suppliers who are

19:20

allies, who are friends, who are

19:22

doing it both without slave labour

19:24

and with environmental responsibility. Canada

19:27

can do that. And the push

19:29

that we've had is how we do

19:31

that. Yes, we have the third

19:33

largest proven oil reserves in the

19:35

world. But we also know

19:37

the world is trying to get off its

19:40

massive reliance on oil. There will always

19:42

be a role for oil in our

19:44

economy, but more and more on renewables.

19:47

So how can we be part of

19:49

that? Well, we've had to nudge and

19:51

push and cajole so that we're investing

19:53

in decarbonization. We put

19:55

a price on pollution and return that

19:57

price to citizens to help with affordability.

20:00

We should do more on mining,

20:02

but in order to do more

20:04

on mining responsibly, not only environmental

20:06

standards, but partnership with Indigenous peoples

20:08

and bringing them in as full

20:11

partners on this land instead of,

20:13

you know, ignoring them or marginalizing

20:15

them as we have for centuries.

20:17

All these things actually fit together.

20:22

We will be right back with more of

20:24

my conversation with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

20:27

I'm Stephen Dubner and you are listening to Free

20:29

economics Radio, a show whose

20:31

second largest national listenership, by the

20:33

way, is Canadian. As

20:35

someone who grew up in upstate New York,

20:38

who went to Montreal as a teenager and

20:40

thought it was every bit as exciting as

20:42

Europe might be if one had the

20:44

ability to go to Europe, as

20:46

someone whose upstate New York accent

20:49

is still mistaken for Canadian all

20:51

the time, this makes me

20:53

very happy. So thanks Canada.

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Your Rich. Edward

22:23

Jones, member SIPC. We

22:33

spoke with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

22:35

on Thursday, the 18th of April. Let's

22:40

talk a little bit more about immigration and the pressures

22:42

it has put on the country. There

22:44

are plainly many, many, many upsides of immigration, which is

22:46

what we spent a lot of time discussing in the

22:48

series we did. But if you

22:50

look at all these problems that you are

22:53

now trying to address, especially housing, but also

22:55

access to healthcare and education and infrastructure, I

22:57

mean, you had to see that they were

23:00

coming to some degree. You can't invite half

23:02

a million new people to your home and

23:04

not expect growing pains and shortages. When

23:06

you look back over the past, let's say five years, how

23:08

do you think you might have planned differently or

23:11

better? Actually, let me correct you on

23:13

one little thing there. You

23:15

can invite half a million

23:18

people into your home every

23:20

year if you're Canada

23:22

and not experience growing pains at

23:24

all. That is

23:26

not the issue we're facing right now. We welcome

23:28

in 465,000 last year. We're

23:32

on our way to 500,000 immigrants for a

23:34

country of 40 million. That's a big, big

23:36

number. It's well over 1% of our population.

23:39

But that is totally sustainable for Canada.

23:41

One of our competitive advantages that Canadians

23:44

remain positive to immigration. I know you

23:46

had our immigration minister, my buddy Mark, on

23:48

a while ago. And he pointed out that Canada

23:51

is lucky in that we've never had

23:53

to deal with irregular immigration. People coming

23:55

from the South will stay in the

23:57

United States where the economy is strong.

24:00

and the weather is nicer, they're not

24:02

going to cross the three oceans to

24:04

come to Canada. It hasn't been the

24:06

challenge that's been elsewhere and we've been

24:08

able to be positive around immigration because

24:10

of it. We've done a great job

24:13

of integrating diversity while holding up that

24:15

diversity as a sense of richness instead

24:17

of trying to make everyone into a

24:19

unique identity of Canadian because we've always

24:21

had multiple identities with the French, the

24:23

English, the Indigenous and the origins of

24:25

Canada was always very disparate. The

24:29

pressure we've had recently, particularly since

24:31

the pandemic, is that on top

24:33

of the 500,000

24:36

or so permanent residents that we

24:38

settle in an orderly manner that

24:40

are great for contributing to growing

24:42

communities, to our workforce, at a

24:44

time of labour shortages, we've

24:46

had a massive spike in temporary

24:48

immigration or unplanned immigration to a

24:51

certain extent. Some of that are

24:53

asylum seekers where we have had

24:55

a boost from Mexico and from

24:57

other places that we've had to

25:00

tighten up on and re-impose a visa on Mexico,

25:02

but the large part of it is in two

25:04

categories, international students

25:07

and temporary foreign workers. International

25:10

students went from like 200,000 a year to 700,000 a year over the past few

25:15

years. Wow, why was that?

25:18

Because there was a real decision

25:21

by universities and particularly by the

25:23

provinces who run the universities to

25:25

go out, they're CAF's customers, correct?

25:27

They are. We have tuition fees

25:29

in Canada of between $5,000 and $10,000 a year for our top-notch universities

25:34

depending on the programs, but

25:36

international students will pay $25,000, $30,000 because

25:39

they don't get the same level of

25:41

subsidies that Canadian citizens will, which is

25:43

totally natural. But universities suddenly

25:45

started to realize that they could bring

25:47

in lots more international students and make

25:50

up for some of the funding shortfalls

25:52

that every institution is facing. And these

25:54

are students coming primarily from China and

25:56

some India? India, China, and a few

25:59

other places. The problem is

26:01

that that has then turned around and

26:03

put a lot of pressure on local

26:05

housing in university towns, which pretty much

26:07

all our towns are, and it's

26:10

also decreased the quality of education

26:12

and caused a rash of mental

26:14

health issues, including suicides in international

26:16

students that we've seen over the

26:18

past few years. So as a

26:20

government, we decided that we were

26:22

going to curtail the number of

26:24

international students coming in and get

26:26

that under control. This is recent,

26:28

right? These are new temporary caps. This

26:31

is recent. This is just over the past couple

26:33

of months so that we can respond to the

26:35

housing pressures and the issues around that. What did

26:37

the university say to you? Because all of a

26:39

sudden their budgets look a little bit less healthy.

26:42

Yeah, they weren't very happy, nor were the provinces

26:44

in some cases. But for us,

26:46

the provinces were maybe not stepping up on

26:48

controlling things the way they should have to

26:51

prevent us from getting into this. The other

26:53

side of things with the temporary foreign workers

26:56

will always need agricultural workers to do

26:58

some of the jobs that Canadians don't

27:00

tend to do. And we have great programs with Mexico,

27:03

with South America and the Caribbean to bring people up

27:05

for a few months and then they go back, their

27:07

pockets fold and support their families for the rest of

27:09

the year. It's worked very well for many years. But

27:12

there was a much larger

27:15

wave of restaurants and

27:17

convenience stores using temporary foreign workers

27:19

in a way that didn't necessarily

27:21

make sense, that we're now trying

27:23

to get back into space. The

27:26

other thing is we're going to need

27:28

more immigration in terms of healthcare

27:30

workers, construction workers and skilled trades

27:33

responding to the housing challenges we're

27:35

facing by building more supply, responding

27:37

to the needs of an aging

27:39

population that's going to require more

27:41

healthcare and needs more caregivers and

27:44

nurses and personal support workers. We

27:46

will continue to be strong

27:48

on immigration, but a little

27:50

more targeted to make sure

27:53

that Canadians still stay positive

27:55

towards immigration because it's one

27:57

of our greatest advantages in

27:59

the world. So I know

28:01

that your housing prices in Canada like in

28:03

many large countries like in the United States

28:05

certainly They're all over the map some cities

28:07

are very expensive in some places are very

28:09

affordable The problem is often where you need

28:12

immigrants to service the population those places are

28:14

very expensive to live for immigrants So Vancouver

28:16

and Toronto being similar to let's say New

28:18

York and San Francisco Back

28:20

when Michael Bloomberg was mayor of New

28:23

York City He proposed admitting immigrants on

28:25

the condition that they live in Detroit

28:27

right that needed population I'm

28:29

curious. Have you thought about connecting

28:31

your immigration policy to

28:33

where Immigrants settle specifically

28:36

in less expensive parts in Canada that

28:38

would put less pressure on housing That

28:40

is absolutely something we're doing and we

28:42

see rural parts of the country that

28:44

have you know An aging population where

28:47

young people leave to go to the

28:49

cities and there's need for an

28:51

influx of new populations We've seen

28:53

some amazing stories when in 2015 when

28:56

we welcomed in 40,000

28:58

Syrian refugees which was a commitment

29:00

we made to respond to the challenge But

29:02

also to show the world what positive benefits

29:05

come from immigration Those families have

29:07

settled not just in our largest cities But

29:09

in some of our small towns that have

29:11

been incredibly successful But I mean is that

29:13

directed is that policy or is that just

29:16

the way it shakes out? No, it's something

29:18

that we have to directly create incentives and

29:20

encouragement for But we don't

29:22

and wouldn't ever For

29:24

someone to move to one place or another

29:26

if you're immigrating to Canada you get to

29:29

go wherever in Canada you want But

29:31

we will create Opportunities

29:33

and jobs and growth and try and

29:35

work with local municipalities and regions to

29:38

boost that But the

29:40

challenge is bigger than just around immigration

29:42

The fact is in our

29:44

largest cities if you work

29:46

as a nurse or an electrician or

29:48

a police officer You're having to

29:51

live way out in the suburbs You can't

29:53

afford a place in the city that you

29:55

actually work in and that's something we're aggressively

29:57

trying to turn around with investments

29:59

in a affordable rentals, affordable housing that

30:01

is designed to respond to people actually

30:03

being able to live in those cities.

30:05

And in the new budget, I understand

30:08

you are providing for the lease of

30:10

public lands to private developers and so

30:12

on, is that right? Yeah. Well,

30:15

it's one of those things that you

30:17

sort of look at, like we have

30:19

Canadian Armed Forces armories in lots of

30:22

our downtown cores that are beautiful buildings,

30:24

two stories surrounded by 30, 40 story

30:26

apartment buildings. Well, that's a lot of

30:29

empty space above the top where we

30:31

could have a new armory or build on

30:33

top of that armory or that post office,

30:35

a single floor post office in a smaller

30:37

city could easily have 10 stories

30:39

of affordable housing on it. It's an idea

30:41

of creating densification and livable cities in a

30:44

way that is accessible. Let me

30:46

change the subject here. One of the starkest contrasts

30:48

between your country and ours that I see is

30:51

the way that you and other

30:53

Canadian leaders have been outspoken and

30:55

proactive in addressing your country's past

30:57

exploitation of its indigenous people. In

30:59

the US, it's really barely discussed.

31:01

Now, we do talk about slavery

31:03

and that legacy a lot, but

31:05

not very much on indigenous people.

31:08

I'm curious why you think there's such a difference. And actually,

31:10

there's one issue I wanted to ask you about. I don't

31:12

know so much about this, but I know that a couple

31:14

of years ago, there was the claim of

31:16

human remains having been found in unmarked

31:19

mass graves at residential schools for natives.

31:21

And, you know, your government responded very mightily.

31:24

The flag was lowered over public buildings for

31:26

several months. Parliament passed a motion calling on

31:28

the government to recognize the schools as having

31:30

committed genocide. But now it's evident, and some

31:32

people claimed it was evident back then, that

31:34

those claims were false. The remains weren't human.

31:37

But you endorsed what turned out

31:39

to be that false accusation. I've read that

31:42

that may have been the sort of

31:44

political misstep that was important for the

31:46

decline of your public approval. Can you

31:48

walk me through that issue? Yeah,

31:51

there's a lot of things that aren't

31:53

quite right in that. And I'm happy

31:55

to sort of straighten things out. Please,

31:57

first of all, Canada for centuries. followed

32:01

an assimilationist policy that was

32:03

very much about marginalizing its

32:05

indigenous peoples. And not

32:07

honoring the original treaties where there were agreements

32:10

that we would share the land and they

32:12

would welcome us and teach settlers how to

32:14

survive through our winters. And then

32:16

in the name of progress

32:18

and higher civilization in

32:20

a colonial racist ideal, there was

32:22

a complete delegitimization of indigenous knowledge.

32:25

And that happened for centuries. Similar

32:27

to the US or was it

32:29

different? Similar to the US. How

32:31

it manifested itself to much of

32:33

the 20th century was something called

32:36

residential schools. Run primarily by churches

32:38

but funded and enabled by the

32:40

government that took indigenous children out

32:43

of their communities to erase

32:46

the native from the child.

32:48

To not let them

32:50

speak their language, not let them understand

32:52

their heritage culture and the land. And

32:54

that led to a legacy of intergenerational

32:57

trauma that you still see now in

32:59

homelessness, in addictions and mental health

33:01

challenges and economic outcomes that

33:04

are so much worth in

33:06

indigenous populations than non-indigenous. These

33:09

residential schools usually

33:11

had cemeteries beside them

33:13

because kids would die, some cases

33:15

from abuse, some cases from the

33:18

flu and untreated maladies. The conditions

33:20

were very, very, very difficult. There

33:23

was a lot of TB going

33:25

around back then, yes? Yes, and

33:27

terrible living conditions. And too many

33:30

indigenous families had experiences of their kids were

33:32

taken away at the end of summer. And

33:35

they were given a note the next year

33:37

when they were supposed to come home, no,

33:39

your son or daughter died. And they ended

33:41

up in these graves. They weren't mass graves,

33:43

but they were unmarked graves

33:45

usually, besides schools that have

33:47

now started to be recovered.

33:49

So that is absolutely true.

33:52

There are plenty of human

33:54

remains and families who still

33:56

remember the brokenheartedness of having

33:58

lost a great honor. or

34:00

whatever when they were seven years old. And

34:03

there's a lot of work we're trying

34:05

to do to actually identify those remains

34:07

or honor them in ways

34:10

that are culturally sensitive. So that's

34:12

not, if I dare

34:14

say, why I'm unpopular or less popular

34:17

than I used to be. Canadians are

34:19

very much aware of the responsibility

34:22

we have. There's perhaps a

34:25

little bit of a disagreement

34:27

of, you know, what if

34:29

we should be proud of our country, we

34:31

should be waving our flag, we shouldn't be leaning

34:33

in on our mistakes of the past

34:36

and saying that, oh no, we did

34:38

terrible things, we should just be, you

34:40

know, unblemishedly patriotic about what a great

34:42

country this is. That's a

34:44

view that I see out there. The right

34:46

wing is a little more leaning in on

34:48

that one. I think it's really important to

34:51

acknowledge the mistakes of the past as

34:53

a sense of validation of deep,

34:55

deep intergenerational trauma, but it's also

34:58

really important to recognize so that

35:00

we don't fall into the same kinds of mistakes

35:02

that were made in the past. After

35:06

the break, why the vaunted Canadian

35:08

healthcare system isn't quite so vaunted

35:10

anymore. We're talking about the one

35:12

social program the US has that

35:14

Canada would like to copy, and

35:17

why Justin Trudeau has always read

35:19

and continues to read a great

35:21

deal of fiction. I'm Stephen

35:23

Dubner. This is Free Economics Radio. We'll be

35:26

right back. Free

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Vanguard Marketing Corporation distributor. Okay,

38:02

let's get back to my recent

38:04

conversation with Canadian Prime Minister Justin

38:07

Trudeau. Let me

38:09

ask you about your healthcare system, which is in

38:11

the US, famously wonderful.

38:14

Although when you start to dig in, especially in

38:16

recent years, you see it's under significant pressure. So

38:19

I've read that 6 million Canadians in a

38:21

country of just over 40 million don't have

38:23

a family physician or other primary care provider.

38:26

You've got relatively long wait times for

38:28

surgery and other critical treatments. ERs are

38:31

overcrowded. Like the US, you've

38:33

now got a very significant opioid crisis.

38:36

How do you fix that? Well, in

38:38

Canada, our federal government doesn't deliver healthcare

38:40

to most Canadians. The armed forces and

38:42

indigenous people are an exception. But most

38:45

Canadians get their healthcare through provincial delivery.

38:47

So the federal government has always had

38:50

a role of helping fund the healthcare

38:52

systems across the country as long as

38:54

they are meeting the goals of the

38:56

Canada Health Act. But not run them.

38:58

But not run them. The

39:00

challenge though is we're funding

39:03

a big part of the

39:05

provincial systems without any accountability

39:07

on results because the constitution says

39:09

they get to deliver. So

39:11

one of the things that we did last year is

39:13

I put a $200 billion package

39:15

forward for healthcare over the

39:17

next 10 years, which

39:19

means that yes, there are targets

39:22

to hit on family doctors and the number of

39:24

Canadians who have access to a primary care physician

39:26

because that's a huge entry point into it. More

39:28

money on mental health, more money

39:30

for supporting healthcare workers, better conditions,

39:33

better jobs, more hires. But

39:35

it's all underpinned by better data,

39:37

by a level of transparency and openness

39:40

and accountability that's going to be able

39:42

to compare outcomes from one region to

39:44

the next, compare outcomes within systems in

39:46

a digital way that is going to

39:49

drive innovation. Because if you can't measure

39:51

something, you can't improve it. What

39:54

do you think when you watch what's

39:56

happening with the NHS in Britain, which

39:58

again, beloved healthcare system? by its

40:00

citizens but under massive pressure now,

40:03

is that sort of your nightmare scenario

40:05

for the Canadian version? There

40:08

need to be improvements but our

40:10

healthcare system with all its faults

40:12

is still there for people. Nobody

40:14

loses their home, nobody goes into

40:16

debt or bankruptcy because they get

40:18

sick or have cancer. But

40:21

there's always more to do. Three things that

40:23

the federal government had decided to do recently

40:25

as part of this budget and

40:27

of the last years on care

40:29

and on affordability is we've stepped

40:31

up with a dental care program

40:33

which wasn't part of regular healthcare.

40:35

We're also moving forward on free

40:38

insulin because when people skip their

40:40

diabetes medication the consequences for them

40:42

but the consequences for the healthcare

40:45

system are massive. And

40:47

third, we're moving forward on prescription contraceptives

40:49

because we know too many young people

40:51

are squeezed in this economy and too

40:53

many young women don't get to pay

40:56

for the pill or the IUDs or

40:58

whatever it is that allow for that

41:00

family planning. And I'm an unabashed feminist

41:02

and feminist government so we're making sure

41:05

that women have the choice and we're

41:07

covering prescription contraceptives. My

41:09

next question circles back to my pretend

41:12

advisor question about, hey, we need a lot

41:14

more resources to carry out all these plans.

41:16

How about using more of our natural resources

41:18

to generate revenues? I want to know how

41:21

concerned you are about debt. The opposition leader,

41:23

Pierre Poileve, in talking about the new debt

41:26

in your budget seems to call you a

41:28

pyromaniac. He said that you are spraying gas

41:30

on the inflation fire that you lit. I

41:32

don't know too much about that but it's

41:35

hard for me to think that you were

41:37

responsible for inflation when the rest of the

41:39

world is suffering the same thing. That said,

41:42

and worse than Canada, but yes, that said,

41:45

that said, what we've been

41:47

talking about has often been circumscribed

41:49

by a need for spending. Can

41:52

you talk to me about balancing, about moderating those

41:54

needs with the amount of debt that you'll take

41:56

on? Yes. I mean,

41:58

first of all, the big difference.

42:01

difference right now between the conservatives

42:03

in Canada and our progressive government

42:06

is that we believe there is a

42:08

role for government to play. Government shouldn't

42:10

do everything, but it should be there

42:12

to help make sure that the system

42:14

works to give as many people as

42:16

possible an opportunity to succeed. Whether it's

42:19

things like a national school food program,

42:21

which the US has had, but Canada

42:23

didn't have, that we actually brought in

42:25

with this budget. Finally, we found one

42:27

social program that we beat you at.

42:30

Happy to learn on that and draw on

42:32

that or other things that we believe government

42:34

has a role to play. So the dental

42:36

care, the pharmacare that we talked about, the

42:39

investments in healthcare, the supports

42:41

for seniors, the housing approach we

42:43

have, childcare, $10 a day childcare,

42:45

those are all things that the

42:47

conservatives say we shouldn't do. And

42:50

they talk about the need for

42:52

fiscal responsibility. The problem is, like

42:54

so many things that conservative politicians

42:56

do these days, it's actually a

42:59

fact free based argument

43:01

because Canada has

43:03

the lowest debt to GDP

43:05

ratio in the G7.

43:08

We are the third largest economy in

43:10

the world with a triple A credit

43:12

rating on the international bond markets. The

43:14

US has it, but only because you're

43:16

a reserve currency, not because you're so

43:18

fiscally responsible. Germany has it and then

43:20

Canada has it. We have

43:22

managed to have the lowest deficit in

43:24

the G7. We came out of the

43:26

pandemic with a quicker bounce back on

43:28

jobs. Yes, we added lots

43:31

of debt during the pandemic, but

43:33

the track of our deficit and

43:35

the sustainability allows us to invest

43:37

in people. For example, we're putting

43:39

down $13 billion to draw

43:42

in Volkswagen's battery manufacturing gigafactory in

43:44

Southern Ontario. We beat out Oklahoma

43:47

for it. The conservatives say, when

43:49

set up engaging in corporate welfare,

43:51

you should have just paid down

43:54

the deficit And balanced the

43:56

books quicker. But I Know that investing in

43:58

an EV factory... Terry. With

44:00

thirty thousand indirect jobs and billions

44:03

of dollars in growth over the

44:05

next thirty years and in industries,

44:07

this gonna be super important is

44:09

the right kind of investment. So

44:12

the contrast is not about whether

44:14

or not we're fiscally responsible because

44:16

we are. The question is, what

44:18

are we investing in for Canadian,

44:21

some for the future. Let's.

44:23

Talk about child care which he brought up.

44:25

There is this plan, but I understand you're

44:27

not there yet. My want to ask you

44:30

about it in relation to your fertility rates

44:32

are one reason countries want and need to

44:34

bring in a lot of immigrants is because

44:36

they're not producing as many babies themselves and

44:38

tenants. Fertility rates pretty low, substantially lower than

44:41

the U S. Ours is about one point

44:43

six, six now years, one point, three, three

44:45

which really surprised me. And one argument, although

44:47

I don't know how strong an argument it

44:49

really is, is that fertility rates do tend

44:52

to fall when. Child's here is

44:54

expensive are unavailable. Some serious. I see

44:56

those two issues being linked: what you're

44:58

doing to make child care more affordable

45:00

and if you have a good plan

45:02

if you wouldn't mind if we steal

45:04

it because plainly we don't. First

45:06

of all, we do know to

45:09

a certain extent the impact of

45:11

child care because for twenty five

45:13

years, my home province of Quebec

45:15

has had ten dollars seven dollar

45:17

a day childcare that is extremely

45:19

effective. And I know anecdotally yeah,

45:22

families of my generation all had

45:24

lots the kids. I don't know

45:26

that it really affected the fertility

45:28

rates, but it was an experiment

45:30

that was extremely successful in Quebec

45:32

for five decades now. since I

45:34

wrote report on the status. of

45:37

women in the early seventies the

45:39

number one recommendation on improving the

45:41

opportunity for women was child and

45:43

we've looked at various things we

45:45

brought into canada child benefit the

45:47

cut child poverty and house it's

45:49

a means test benefit the puts

45:51

hundreds of dollars tax free in

45:53

the pockets of low income families

45:55

every month that has done massive

45:57

things for ending child poverty supporting

45:59

kids, but it didn't really help

46:01

with the very high cost of

46:03

childcare. It was the

46:05

pandemic that actually allowed us

46:08

to move forward on childcare because first

46:10

of all, people understood what

46:12

a hassle it is to have kids at home

46:14

when you're trying to work. Everyone suddenly had that

46:16

universal experience that women had known for a long

46:18

time. But also the business

46:20

community, looking at labor shortages, realized that, okay,

46:23

no, we need more women in the workforce.

46:25

So there was a moment and we leapt

46:27

on it. And the first thing we did

46:29

was cut childcare fees in half across the country, where

46:31

we went from places that were like $70 a day down

46:33

to $35 a day, at

46:36

the time where the mortgage rates were going up

46:39

because of interest rates, actually saved a whole bunch

46:41

of families back in a very, very real way.

46:43

But we're driving down towards $10 a day, right

46:46

across the country, not every province is

46:48

there yet. And part of the knock

46:50

on effects of that are, first of

46:52

all, an increase in women's workforce participation,

46:54

the likes of which we had never

46:56

seen just over the past year or

46:58

so, as women no longer have to

47:00

choose to stay home, because if they

47:02

go out and work, they can't even

47:04

afford for childcare with the salary that

47:07

they have. So there's that. But it

47:09

also is leading to more jobs for

47:11

primarily young women as early childhood educators,

47:13

as we're creating greater opportunities in the

47:15

care economy around that. What do those

47:17

jobs pay though? We're working on

47:19

getting a proper pay grid up to $25 an

47:21

hour and beyond. These are

47:23

good jobs, but there's still more work to

47:25

be done to make sure that they are

47:27

good careers. But it's a catch-22,

47:30

I guess, right? Because you want to

47:32

provide affordable childcare, but you want to

47:34

pay the people who are providing the

47:36

childcare a living wage. But the economic

47:38

benefits of childcare are so positive for

47:40

the overall economy that it's worth subsidizing.

47:42

But again, the ideological perspective from the

47:45

Conservatives is pushing back against it. There's

47:47

still the debate over it, but yes,

47:49

by all means, please steal this. It's

47:51

good for the economy. It's good for

47:53

women, and it's good for kids to

47:55

get the right start in life. So

47:58

You Legalized Care. It is not

48:00

you alone but your administration. I'm curious

48:02

what you see as the benefits of

48:04

cannabis legalization and use because it hasn't

48:07

been widely studied, especially in the Us

48:09

where it still federally prohibited. Some theories

48:11

if there's an answer beyond, well people

48:13

were using it anyway and the black

48:15

market has a lot of negative effects

48:17

and so we decide to make a

48:19

regulated market which is a good economic

48:21

arguments but what he sees the benefits

48:23

of use and I'm teresa to use

48:25

cannabis yourself. It wasn't an economic

48:27

arguments that we made and it was

48:29

an old people using it anyway. Although

48:31

those arguments did come into it, it

48:33

was primarily a public health issue. Cannabis,

48:35

as the nine is it is is

48:38

so many people's studies and year you

48:40

can overdose on it and everything is

48:42

still the drugs and you certainly don't

48:44

want young people over using and abusing

48:46

it. Back then in Canada, it was

48:48

easier to buy a joint than it

48:50

was to buy a bottle of beer.

48:52

So we said okay, let's make sure

48:54

that we're controlling the productions. Not gangs

48:57

that are producing it health Canada stamps to

48:59

make sure that it wasn't cut with sentinel

49:01

or anything bad. It's about a public health

49:03

approach to say We're going to be able

49:05

to keep our kids safe because at the

49:07

point of sale now there will be verification

49:10

of age and what goes into it will

49:12

be healthier and safer for people. Maybe.

49:14

I missed your answer to that part, but what

49:16

about you as a user yourself? Yes, No. Maybe.

49:19

So I've tried it, but it's never been my

49:21

thing. I'm much more of a beer and bourbon

49:23

kind of guy than than that too much. You

49:29

can't be prime minister forever presumably.

49:31

I definitely don't want to. When

49:33

you're done, you'll still be a relatively young men

49:36

only fifty two now, I believe. What do you

49:38

think you would be doing right now had you

49:40

not gone into politics? I'd. still be

49:42

a teacher as to be teacher and

49:44

when i leave politics i will look

49:46

to teach again in one way shape

49:48

or form whether it's yelp reflecting on

49:50

the intersection of technology and democracy and

49:52

trying to your save the world that

49:54

way and ultimately a social activists who's

49:57

gonna look to how i can have

49:59

a positive impact on the world. I

50:01

did it as a teacher. I'm doing it

50:03

now as a politician. Whatever I do next,

50:05

I will continue to try and have an

50:07

impact on the world. But for now, I'm

50:09

very much happy and focused on the job

50:11

I have and not thinking about the future

50:13

too much except the future for young Canadians

50:15

that we're trying to build. Do

50:18

you still feel that your Jesuit

50:20

education and your father's Jesuit education

50:23

inform the way you think about what you do now? Oh,

50:25

very much, very much. The rigor of

50:28

the education I had, the intellectual

50:31

honesty that is required of being

50:33

true to your values and really

50:35

thoughtful about how to articulate them,

50:38

combined with my own personal faith,

50:41

I still remain Catholic and my

50:45

relationship with God is something that

50:47

is important to me in a

50:49

way that is deeply personal. My

50:52

faith is part of who I am even though I

50:55

probably haven't done as good a job at

50:57

passing that on to my kids as a good

50:59

Catholic should. The world is changing, but for me,

51:02

it's part of the moral core of who I am. You

51:05

write in your memoir really movingly

51:07

about becoming transfixed and immersed in

51:09

reading fiction as a kid. And

51:12

somewhat to the chagrin of your father,

51:15

what you were reading wasn't quite what

51:17

he wanted you to read, but how

51:19

that habit stuck. I am curious if

51:21

you still read much fiction today, but

51:23

what I really want to know is,

51:26

can you make a good succinct argument

51:28

for why reading fiction at this seemingly

51:31

late stage in our civilization is

51:33

still important to stimulate our thinking

51:35

or worldview in a

51:37

way that other things cannot? Well,

51:40

I was a school teacher, so I have

51:42

that answer ready. Getting kids

51:45

to read stories is

51:47

sometimes one of the first ways they

51:49

discover empathy because you have to see

51:51

yourself in the main character to get

51:53

any enjoyment out of the book And

51:56

being aware of how someone else thinks

51:58

and feels about anything. The thing

52:00

is a complete opening of the world.

52:02

And the one thing I'm worried with

52:05

my kids with all or generation that

52:07

are still watching you tube and tic

52:09

toc videos and not reading as much,

52:12

not immersing themselves in worlds that they

52:14

can only see through their interior, I

52:16

is that we might be losing something

52:19

around emphases that is exacerbated by filter

52:21

bubbles and echo chambers And all those

52:23

things we have. It's a

52:25

really good answer, but that's not even

52:27

my main answer. The main answer is

52:30

as a politician and as an adult.

52:32

Why do I continue to read massive

52:34

amounts of six? Since because story. Is.

52:36

The only thing that matters: How

52:39

we tell the stories of our

52:41

lives. How we tell the story

52:43

of the world, where in the

52:45

narratives of our lives and the

52:47

arc of those stories is still

52:49

how we think. And it's how

52:52

humans are programmed and have been

52:54

programmed to think. For two hundred

52:56

thousand years of oral traditions, the

52:58

idea of story as the vehicle

53:00

for existence is at the center

53:02

of everything I have and when

53:04

I need to step away from.

53:07

The mountains of briefing notes and nonfiction

53:09

that I'm forced with my work. I

53:11

need to dive into stores. Said.

53:16

What is the story of Canada

53:18

at this moment? I'd

53:20

be curious to hear your take.

53:22

Our email is radio at Freakonomics

53:25

that com Here's my to Justin

53:27

Trudeau is too polite to say

53:29

so, but as more and more

53:31

countries increasingly flirts populism and know

53:34

nothingism sort of which has in

53:36

the past that to mostly terrible

53:38

things. He is standing

53:40

firmly on the opposite side. In

53:43

this regard, sees unapologetically liberal.

53:46

We've been a waste unapologetically

53:48

because his politeness can seem

53:50

like a preemptive problems. But

53:52

this is where Trudeau stands.

53:54

And for the time being,

53:56

at least we're Canada stands

53:58

as well. He

54:00

was interesting to hear Trudeau call

54:02

himself ultimately a social activist. That

54:04

is not an admission most politicians

54:06

care to make from either side

54:09

of the aisle. If

54:11

you listen to this show regularly,

54:13

you will know that I don't

54:15

often interview politicians because they generally

54:17

won't answer your actual questions and

54:19

they are willing to give straight

54:21

answers. I would say that Trudeau

54:23

was okay at answering my questions

54:25

and a lot of his answers,

54:27

while not quite straight, did usually

54:29

end up somewhere close to the

54:31

intended destination. It is good to

54:33

hear directly from people who were

54:35

in a position of great power,

54:38

and for that I thanked him

54:40

for his. Time coming up next time

54:42

on the so. In. A

54:44

way it's of reverse

54:46

image of Justin Trudeau

54:48

Canada We look at

54:51

early twentieth century Vienna

54:53

what it stood for.

54:55

They were trying to

54:57

take over most modern

54:59

disciplines Sociology, mathematics, Statistics,

55:01

and apply movies the

55:04

disciplines to building a

55:06

new civilization and what

55:08

became of it in

55:10

a most comprehensive, ruthless

55:12

manner. The nazis

55:15

basically destroyed Vienna

55:17

as a sensor

55:19

have scientific, progressive,

55:21

liberal opposition to

55:24

National socialism. Usually

55:26

when we think of a lost world

55:28

we go back centuries or maybe millennium.

55:31

A Vienna is a loss world that

55:33

lived on through. It's the Aspirin as

55:35

next time on the So. Also I

55:37

wanted to mention in our previous episode

55:40

called how to Pave the The Road

55:42

to Hell one of our guests misspoke

55:44

when he was talking about and income

55:46

cut off for Medicare. he meant to

55:49

say Medicaid. The fact that this guess

55:51

is Nobel prize winning economist is not

55:53

an excuse we should have com here.

55:56

thanks to the many of you who did catch

55:58

it and road and we ended that portion and

56:00

republished the episode. Okay,

56:02

we will be back next week to

56:05

wax Viennese. Until then, take care of

56:07

yourself, and if you can, someone else

56:09

too. Freeconomics

56:11

Radio is produced by Stitcher and

56:13

Renbed Radio. You can find

56:16

our entire archive on any podcast

56:18

app, also at freeconomics.com, where

56:20

we publish transcripts and show notes.

56:23

This episode was produced by Alina

56:25

Coleman and Zach Lipinski, with engineering

56:28

help from JP Davidson in Ottawa.

56:30

Our staff also includes Augusta Chapman,

56:32

Eleanor Osborne, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth,

56:35

Greg Rippon, Jasmine Clinger, Jeremy Johnston,

56:37

Julie Kanfer, Wierich Boudich, Morgan Levy,

56:39

Neil Caruth, Rebecca Lee Douglas, and

56:42

Sarah Lilly. Our theme song is

56:44

Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers. Our

56:46

composer is Luis Guerra. As

56:49

always, thank you for listening. I've

56:52

been a big fan for a long time. I actually dusted off my old copy of

56:57

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