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card. Hey

1:38

there, it's Stephen Dubner, and this

1:40

is a bonus episode. It's one

1:42

last addition to our series called

1:44

The True Story of America's Supremely

1:46

Messed Up Immigration System. I

1:49

learned a lot making this series, including

1:51

how little most of us know about

1:53

immigration. One of the main

1:55

voices in those episodes was Zeke Hernandez, a

1:57

business professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton.

2:00

school. He came to our attention

2:02

because of a book he has got coming

2:04

out soon called The Truth About Immigration. The

2:07

book includes a quiz, and

2:09

we thought it might be interesting to have

2:12

some Freakonomics Radio listeners take this quiz. So,

2:15

that's what we're hearing today. Let's see how they

2:17

did. Hello.

2:22

Hi, this is Jacob. Jacob,

2:25

hey, this is Stephen Dubner. How are you?

2:27

Good, Stephen. How are you doing, man? I'm

2:29

doing great. Thank you. I'm here with Z.

2:31

Hernandez, who's a business professor at Wharton. Hey,

2:33

Jacob. How are you? Good,

2:35

man. Now, Jacob, tell us your last name and

2:37

how old you are. Cebulski, and I'm

2:39

30 years old. Where do you live and what do

2:41

you do? I'm a United

2:44

States Marine Corps officer. I live in

2:46

Wilmington, North Carolina, and I work as

2:48

a combat engineer officer on Camp Lejeune,

2:50

North Carolina. Now, Jacob, would

2:52

you consider yourself an expert on

2:55

immigration to the U.S. by any chance?

2:58

No, sir, not really. I am from

3:00

Texas originally, but no. Have

3:02

you lived outside the U.S., whether on

3:04

Marine Corps duty or otherwise? Yes, sir.

3:06

I lived in Japan, Okinawa, Japan, for

3:08

four years. Well, Zeke, as

3:10

I mentioned, is a business professor at

3:12

Wharton, but he's also an expert in

3:15

immigration and has written a book called

3:17

The Truth About Immigration, which

3:19

was one of the foundations for a

3:21

series that we are getting ready to

3:23

put out very soon. And we wanted

3:26

to run this quiz with listeners. This

3:28

will come out after the series has

3:30

aired, but in order to

3:32

make sure you, Jacob, wouldn't cheat, we're

3:34

asking the questions before the series aired

3:36

because... That's smart, Stephen, because I definitely

3:38

would. I

3:42

appreciate the candor. Okay, so Zeke has some

3:44

questions for you. All right, Jacob, you ready?

3:47

Yes, sir. Okay, here's the first question. What

3:49

percentage of the world's population are immigrants?

3:52

That is people who live in countries

3:54

they weren't born in. I'll

3:56

say 33%. You said 30%.

4:00

23% right? Yes sir. So

4:02

the right answer is 3.6%. Dang!

4:04

Oh my God. But

4:07

Jacob, Jacob can I tell you what? You

4:09

shouldn't feel bad because when I first read that

4:11

number in Zeke's book, 3.6%, I literally

4:15

put my thumb on the ink to smudge it to

4:17

see if it was a typo. I thought there's no

4:20

way and my guess was around 30% too. I

4:23

still feel bad though but if I'm in the same ballpark

4:25

as Stephen Dunder I feel like I'm okay. I'll

4:27

get the next one I promise. Alright, here comes the

4:30

next question. Let's ask you

4:32

the same question but for the US. That

4:34

is what percentage of the US population is

4:36

foreign born? I'll say

4:38

9%. 9% okay. So

4:42

I'm sure you adjusted down because of the

4:44

answer you just gave. The right answer is

4:46

14%. Yeah okay. I don't

4:49

feel as bad. Hey Jacob, I

4:51

know it's impossible to go back in your

4:53

mind but pretend that we'd ask you those

4:55

two questions in tandem. The percentage of the

4:58

world's population and you thought 33%

5:00

and then percentage of the US

5:02

population that are immigrants, foreign

5:04

born. What do you think you would have said?

5:07

Just looking at like the headlines I read

5:09

about like immigration crisis and things like that I

5:11

think I'd still be around 33% to

5:14

like quarter of the population just from

5:16

the headlines I'm reading. Yeah

5:18

and that's the common I think reason

5:20

why people always on average overestimate is

5:23

just that the headlines make it

5:25

seem like this is an issue or a problem

5:27

depending on how you see it that is much

5:29

bigger than it actually is. Zeke, I

5:31

wonder if maybe Jacob being in the Marine

5:33

Corps may also influence his thinking a little

5:35

bit because you know the military is one

5:38

of the most integrated

5:40

institutions in this country.

5:43

Do you know anything about how people

5:45

either in universities, the military, you know

5:47

sports teams or another institution that tend

5:49

to be more diverse than a lot

5:52

of other populations do you know anything

5:54

about the difference in how different groups

5:56

like that answer questions like these? I

6:00

don't. I would love to know, but I don't. Okay,

6:02

Zeke, I have one more question for Jacob. Yeah,

6:04

let's ask you this question.

6:07

So, the average undocumented

6:09

immigrant in the US has

6:11

lived in this country for approximately how long?

6:13

I have four options for you. Three

6:16

months, two years, 10 years,

6:18

or 25 years? I'm

6:21

going to go with 25 years. Yeah,

6:24

so the correct answer is a bit over 10

6:26

years. Somewhere between 10 to 14 years is

6:28

about the average. I will

6:30

say this. Jacob has gotten slightly less

6:33

wrong with every question, which I think

6:35

is the sign of an intelligent person.

6:37

He's adjusting. I think we need

6:39

to give him one more, and I think he's going

6:41

to nail it, Zeke. I appreciate the opportunity, gentlemen. All

6:44

right. So, 21% of

6:46

the children born to US parents,

6:48

that is, native parents, are high-income

6:50

earners, meaning they're above the middle

6:52

class, okay? 21%. What

6:55

is that percentage for the children that are born

6:58

to immigrant parents in the United States? I

7:00

have four options for you here. So,

7:02

A, 15%, B, 21%, C, 28%, and D, 35%. Man,

7:14

I'm going to say C, 28%. You

7:16

were close. The correct answer is 35%, but you

7:19

were on the higher end. Most

7:21

people would guess below that. Most people

7:23

would think that the children of immigrants

7:25

are poorer than the children of native

7:28

parents, but it's the opposite. That makes me think

7:30

of The Millionaire Next Door, that book. You know,

7:32

that all these immigrant parents that come in make

7:34

their kids wealthy, and then they blow it all

7:36

by the second generation. Are

7:39

you telling that as a cautionary tale, or

7:41

as a personal story from your past? I'm

7:43

curious. I have blown no money. No, I

7:45

grew up ridiculously poor. But now, you know, Captain

7:47

of the Marine Corps, we have a house, so this is...

7:50

We're doing okay. Congratulations. Jacob, it

7:53

was great to speak with you.

7:55

Thanks, Amelia. Awesome. Thanks, guys. Appreciate

7:57

you. Hi,

8:05

this is Stephen. Can you hear me? Hi, I

8:07

can. What's your name? Lindsay Prigge, and I'm here

8:09

with my husband, Brian. Hi, Brian. So, Lindsay and

8:11

Brian. Is Brian going to take the quiz as

8:14

well? Yes. I want a prediction right now.

8:16

Who do you think will do better, Lindsay? You or Brian? Can

8:19

I get a hint about what the topic is? Nope.

8:22

I'm going to say me only because he had

8:24

no idea I put his name on the list. Nice.

8:27

Okay. Where do you live and what do

8:29

you do? We live in

8:31

the suburbs of Chicago. He

8:34

works in health tech, and

8:37

I primarily am at home with our kids. Would

8:40

either of you consider yourself an expert

8:42

on immigration to the United States? No.

8:46

Excellent. Lindsay and Brian, I'd like

8:48

you to meet Ze Hernandez. Zeke

8:51

has written a forthcoming book called

8:53

The Truth About Immigration, and

8:55

he is going to quiz you

8:58

on some immigration facts and

9:00

statistics. Does that sound okay? Okay.

9:03

All right, Lindsay. Here it goes. As of

9:05

2021, about 8% of Americans lived in poverty. What percentage

9:10

of immigrants lived in poverty in

9:12

the United States? I

9:16

would say significantly greater than 8%. Maybe 45%. Turns

9:23

out the correct answer is 13%. So

9:26

you were right that it's higher than 8%, but you significantly

9:29

overestimated. Hey, Zeke.

9:31

I don't blame Lindsay for overestimating. I

9:33

think the way that immigration is in

9:35

the news would lead most people to

9:37

do that. I am curious what

9:39

most people answer when you ask that question.

9:41

Was Lindsay about average in that regard? I

9:44

would say that's still a bit high. So

9:46

you're saying Lindsay is slightly more wrong than

9:48

even the average person? In this particular case,

9:50

yes. I'm sure that that's not true for

9:52

all aspects of her life. All right. Lindsay, do

9:54

you want to put Brian on and we'll see how wrong

9:56

he can be on the next one? Sure.

9:58

He can take the next one. Hello. All

10:01

right, Brian. Immigrants are responsible

10:03

for what percentage of all patents in

10:05

the United States? Now,

10:08

are you calling that named inventor

10:10

or is that just responsible in

10:12

general? Yeah, responsible in general.

10:14

So it could be named inventor or

10:16

it could be patents that others file

10:18

because they work with immigrants. Brian, the

10:20

fact that you asked that question makes

10:22

me wonder if you are

10:24

responsible for any patents. I do

10:27

have one pending. Congratulations. What

10:29

is your patent pending? It

10:31

is in pharmacy management software

10:34

in clawback management from PBMs.

10:37

This would be software that's used by the

10:39

PBMs, the pharmacy benefit managers, or by the

10:42

independent pharmacies? Used

10:44

by the independent pharmacy to defend

10:46

against PBM clawbacks. I like

10:49

it, Brian. Okay, what's your guess

10:51

then? I'm going to say 40%.

10:54

Brian, that is a very good guess. The correct answer

10:56

is 36%. And

10:59

let me break that down a little bit

11:01

since you asked a sophisticated question. So in

11:03

23% of patents, immigrants are

11:05

the inventors on record. And

11:08

the additional 13% that gets us to

11:10

36% is that without immigrants, native

11:13

born inventors would file fewer patents. Brian, were

11:15

you born in this country or did you

11:17

immigrate to this country? I was born in

11:19

this country. Who in your family immigrated? How

11:21

many generations back? During the Revolutionary

11:24

War. So Zeke, do

11:26

you think that if Brian were a

11:28

much more recent immigrant, or maybe if

11:30

just his parents' generation immigrated, that he

11:32

would have more than one lousy patent

11:34

pending? Obviously,

11:37

that's what the statistics say. You

11:39

know, I think statistically, if you had, you

11:42

know, probably the level of education that you

11:44

have, or you were in an inventive field,

11:46

it's probable that you would. Hey, Brian, I

11:48

am just curious. You gave us either a

11:50

remarkably good guess, or you kind of

11:53

had a good feel for this, or you

11:55

just figured out what was about right. Which

11:58

of those is most true? It

12:00

was a guess based on working

12:02

in tech and knowing the number

12:04

of H-1B visas that are issued

12:07

and figuring there was probably a correlation there.

12:10

Okay. So, Brian, you did better than

12:12

your wife, at least on the first question,

12:14

but I think we need to have another round. So, would you

12:16

put Lindsay back on, please? Yep. All

12:18

right. All right, Lindsay, you witnessed that, I

12:20

know. Yes. You have a little bit

12:22

of a hold to dig out of, but I know you can.

12:25

So, let's have another question for Lindsay. All

12:27

right, Lindsay. So, on any given year, the

12:29

U.S. gives a lot of green cards. What

12:31

percentage of those green cards or

12:33

permanent resident cards go to

12:36

immigrants that are here to reunite

12:38

with their families, that is family-based

12:40

immigrants? And that would

12:42

be as opposed to employment-based, humanitarian, or

12:44

other kinds of green cards. I'm looking

12:46

specifically for what percentage goes to family-based

12:49

migrants. For

12:51

family-based, I would probably say

12:53

that it is easier to come in

12:56

if you have somebody that

13:00

is here and can sponsor you. So,

13:04

oh, man. I'm

13:06

going to go half, 50-50. 50-50?

13:11

It's a pretty good guess. The right

13:13

answer is two-thirds, 66% go

13:16

to family-based migrants. But your reasoning is

13:19

very good reasoning. It's

13:21

not uncommon that people underestimate that

13:23

number because I think the

13:25

average person thinks that

13:27

the U.S. gives a lot more

13:30

work-related green cards than it actually

13:32

does. But our law very,

13:34

very strongly favors family reunification since

13:36

1965. And

13:39

so, we don't have as big of

13:41

an employment-based program as other countries do.

13:44

So, Lindsay, you definitely did a

13:46

lot better on question number two than question number

13:48

one. I need to put

13:50

Brian back on and see if we can equilibrate

13:52

here. He's either going to emerge

13:55

as the total family champion or

13:57

you will have pulled him down from the pedestal. Something

14:00

to discuss. The of our anniversary

14:02

dinner this evening. Congratulations listening

14:05

to What Number Thirteen? What

14:07

is the material For Thirteen?

14:09

It's probably like a funhouse

14:11

mirror. Something terrible. Ah,

14:13

Man, I don't actually know. Oh

14:15

I'll tell ya it's nice. Oh said, give

14:18

you any ideas they do, You still have

14:20

that one up there. Are

14:24

a. Received a

14:26

gift yet. We. Like

14:29

suggested said, they're more than just as.

14:31

Time And so we're made time

14:33

for each other. And I have

14:35

an organ ago. Be. A

14:38

child less and grab a bite. To eat

14:40

I expect Brian to be wearing lace

14:42

that on same or it lists. Hit

14:44

one more question for Brian Zeke please

14:46

Or a brain? Here we go. So.

14:48

About one hundred years ago, most

14:50

immigrants into the U S came from

14:53

Europe, especially Southern and Eastern Europe.

14:55

Today, most of them come from Latin

14:57

America and Asia. So here's a

14:59

question. Today's. Immigrants are they

15:01

assimilate in at a slower rate at

15:04

a faster rate, or at the same

15:06

rate as immigrants from one hundred years.

15:09

I'm gonna say the this is

15:11

where. The. Rosie

15:14

painting of history would lead me to

15:16

say slower, but I think the answer

15:18

is actually the there are some more

15:21

than faster than a hundred years ago.

15:23

It turns out the answers actually at the

15:26

same rate, And that means that when you

15:28

look at the rate at which immigrants in

15:30

terms of their income catch up with native

15:32

workers are the rate at which they adopt

15:34

cultural values and there's various ways to measure

15:37

that. The raiders the same today as it

15:39

ever was. But Brian, I'm really

15:41

curious about the way that you gave

15:43

your answer in the way you thought

15:45

it through. Can you talk a little

15:47

bit more about your impression of the

15:49

history of Us immigration law hundred years

15:51

ago? He has. I think there's a.

15:53

Whole lot fewer places

15:56

where you would see

15:58

a large concentration. Immigrant

16:00

from the same voice. Of you

16:03

look at Chicago their life I

16:05

violation of Polish immigrants. South Boston

16:07

had a high population of Irish

16:10

immigrants. I just don't

16:12

see those sort of centers of

16:14

immigration like you would have years

16:16

ago. Zeke? Is that

16:18

the case? or is Brian just

16:20

not seeing these newer centers as

16:23

immigrant populations. I don't know

16:25

that we have great measures to compare.

16:27

Exactly What we do know is that.

16:30

Both. In the in the past

16:32

as today immigrants often. Enter

16:35

and settled into ethnic enclaves. So

16:37

think of a Chinese immigrants subtly

16:39

near Chinatown and within about twenty

16:41

years you find them and neighborhoods

16:43

the have pass. The. Ethnics

16:45

concentration as they did when they arrived. There's

16:47

reasons why people settle and ethnic enclaves to

16:50

begin with, and it's not just because they

16:52

want to be around people who might speak

16:54

the same language, it's also because they tend

16:57

to be cheaper and as a move up

16:59

the income ladder, they can afford to move

17:01

to say it's a slightly more expensive suburb

17:03

or by their first home. And

17:06

then by the second generation the children are

17:08

well integrated right? Rapes Brian and Lindsay. Thank

17:10

you both so much and I hope you

17:12

have a great anniversary dinner. Thanks for joining

17:15

us and we'll send you some Freakonomics radio

17:17

stuff. Okay here, Welcome Thank you for having

17:19

us tears by. We

17:24

will have more of our immigration quiz

17:26

right after the speak and dubner. This

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this is the been dubbed or next to me too. Like

20:00

what you can you just tell. Us your

20:02

full name and and where you live. Thera my

20:04

name is a dollar. And I

20:06

live on Long Island. And would you

20:08

do? I know associate director an

20:10

art gallery in the city. Do

20:13

you consider yourself an expert

20:15

at all on immigration to

20:17

the United States? Not. At

20:19

all. Perfect. Okay, perfect for our

20:21

quiz. So we've got on the other

20:23

line Z current and as who's a

20:26

business professor at the Wharton School at

20:28

Penn and he's the author of a

20:30

forthcoming book called the Truth About Immigration

20:32

and Zeke is going to ask you

20:34

some questions and we'll see how much

20:36

you know. does that sound? Okay. Okay,

20:39

let's go. And let me to say,

20:41

whether you answer beautifully are horribly. you're

20:43

still gonna get some Freakonomics radio slag.

20:46

Ah ah I'm I'm a little less

20:48

nervous now. Okay, good takes a

20:50

nice to me two circle the first

20:52

question. What? Percentage of

20:54

the Us workforce is composed

20:57

of immigrants. And. I

20:59

did And that and. I'm

21:01

going to see thirty percent. Thirty. Percent

21:03

that guess is on the high side.

21:06

The right answers eighteen percent. Okay,

21:08

you kind of when high. Price.

21:10

Because the New York immigrants or a higher

21:13

percentage of the population or something? I'm just

21:15

wondering. Also I was thinking and

21:17

I know that there are a lot

21:19

of international A employees doing that kind

21:21

of work and and then out of

21:23

have any metal like not illegal emigrate,

21:25

amalia, illegal immigration like farmworkers and things

21:27

like that which I don't have that

21:29

would even be counted as part of

21:31

this. It is it is. So.

21:34

Zeke I'm very much with say I I

21:36

would have given a higher answer is well

21:38

and I do think it's because they you

21:40

and I live in New York which is

21:42

I mean Zeke. Can you just described how

21:44

anomalous a place like New York is in

21:46

terms of immigration compared to the rest of

21:48

us. So. Thirty five to

21:50

thirty six percent of New York's population

21:52

is foreign born, which is quite a

21:55

bit above the national average of fourteen

21:57

percent. Nice. Okay, let's contain the

21:59

questions. So say you just

22:01

mentioned undocumented immigrants from and ask

22:04

you a question about that's how

22:06

long's. Do. You think that the average

22:09

undocumented immigrants has lived in the United

22:11

States? Aussie

22:13

Ten years. Wow. Very good. guess.

22:15

Very good guest spot on. It's

22:17

a look at somewhere between ten

22:19

and fourteen. Wow. Say can you

22:21

walk us through your thought process

22:23

there? Are

22:26

you just innately brilliant? No, not

22:28

at all. Of my thought

22:30

process was when I think about

22:33

people. I know who have

22:35

used undocumented workers, but not.

22:37

Me like, but nannies. Or

22:40

people who work

22:42

landscaping or construction.

22:44

You know they're here for a while. It's

22:46

not like they come and go of me

22:48

be would be different if it was you

22:50

know picking fruits and vegetables. I don't know

22:53

that landscape at all but you know I

22:55

know that people have jobs and stay here

22:57

and do those jobs are very long time

22:59

and it's not easy to get home so

23:01

they often stay here obviously could they can

23:03

go back and forth. Good. Reasoning An

23:06

easy one more question for say. So.

23:09

The average native born American

23:11

receives about a thousand dollars

23:13

and welfare benefits. What is

23:15

that number for immigrants in

23:17

your estimation? I

23:20

bet it's low. I bet it's like.

23:23

Why? Do you think it's slow? Because.

23:25

And now this might be falling into some

23:28

sort of stereotype, but I think of immigrants

23:30

is like extremely hard working. Is

23:32

that reckoning base to some degree? On having seen

23:34

Hamilton, I have to ask. No,

23:40

no, it's because.

23:43

You. Know it's like anecdotal. like.

23:45

Chatter. That people say, and some

23:47

of it's not always from the kind of

23:50

people like at I don't necessarily want to.

23:52

Ask you know there's a lot

23:55

of racism, but. There are

23:57

people who will say you know. There

23:59

are certain clinic the that work really well

24:01

and kitchen because they work really hard because

24:03

they have nothing of hungry not hungry literally

24:06

hungary but they're like you know hungry to

24:08

work they care you know versus other people

24:10

who are lazy and to like. This is

24:12

the kind of thing that sort of get

24:15

stuck in my conscience that the whether it's

24:17

true or not I don't know but I

24:19

think anyone who comes to this country to

24:21

make it I think of them as being

24:23

hard working at so I would think that

24:26

the probably even if they had to go

24:28

you know and assistance it wouldn't. Be for

24:30

very long and I don't exactly know,

24:32

but I'll see three thousand dollars. So.

24:35

You're very good reason the number six

24:37

thousand so it's a little bit higher

24:40

than you thought the number would be

24:42

much lower for undocumented immigrants because for

24:44

one they're not eligible for many benefits

24:46

but directional he sees answer was rates

24:49

and her reasoning zeke I thought was

24:51

really good say i'm just curious when

24:53

you. Former an opinion

24:56

or and assessment of a given situation

24:58

like he just did and you put

25:00

a number on it's I'm curious what

25:02

you think are the sources for that

25:04

assessment. In other words, would

25:06

it be mostly personal experience

25:08

and observation or anecdote? or

25:10

would be from consuming media

25:13

and so on. Oh boy,

25:15

I mean who's to stash hit so

25:17

hard to. Figure. Out where

25:19

the streams are coming from. but it's true. Maybe

25:21

all of these thing with i don't know. I

25:24

know that there are people

25:26

who. Can Be. I mean

25:29

this is terrible, but can be

25:31

abusive to undocumented workers that work

25:33

for them because you know they

25:35

have the leverage that. Also, it's

25:37

just there is this theory that

25:39

you know people who are again

25:41

who are immigrants just worked really

25:43

hard to get where they are.

25:45

Now that also could be because.

25:47

Hold my. Family. Was an

25:49

immigrant that one point and I know you know

25:51

how they suffered and what they had to deal

25:54

and. A lot of people I know I'm

25:56

Jewish, so it's like you know the stories of

25:58

those people on what they did when. They

26:00

came here and house. You know

26:02

they didn't wanna be seen as

26:04

dependents. They wanted to be independent.

26:07

I guess that's probably part of it to.

26:09

Say thank you so much! It was great to

26:11

speak with you And thanks for listening to the

26:13

So. Thank. You! I love the So I'm

26:15

so excited that you called and I got a

26:18

chance to play this quiz and learn a lot.

26:20

To. Sell Saints. In

26:25

and let me ask you

26:27

one last question. seek you

26:29

know a lot about immigration

26:31

to the U S. You

26:33

are in immigrants to the

26:35

Us. We told your story

26:37

in our of radio series.

26:40

I'm curious whether these conversations

26:42

today with listeners taught you

26:44

anything more informed. The way

26:46

you may think further about

26:48

studying immigration. That's. A good

26:50

question. Thanks for asking me that. I

26:52

think that they taught me. That.

26:54

I need to not just

26:57

understand. What? People think but

26:59

why they think what they think. And.

27:02

I think that they also taught me

27:04

that I need to understand people's backgrounds

27:06

more because as we interacted with. The.

27:08

Listeners and you ask for what you do

27:11

or they revealed thinks about their parents or

27:13

their family experience or where they work. That.

27:15

Was also very revealing. I.

27:18

Think I need to do a lot

27:20

more than that more than just focus on

27:22

Fox as a professor. As a researcher,

27:24

I'm in love with facts and figures and

27:26

evidence. And I think rightly so. But.

27:29

Perhaps I'm not enough in love. With.

27:31

Her we get there. I'm in love with

27:34

the scientific method. But. Perhaps

27:36

I'm not in love enough with trying

27:38

to understand how. Different. People

27:40

from different walks of life reason through these

27:42

issues. That's a really interesting

27:44

answer and it makes me think

27:47

back to answer you gave in

27:49

one of the episodes in our

27:51

series when I asked you whether

27:54

you are immigrant experience has influenced

27:56

the way that you think about

27:58

immigration and he basically said well,

28:00

it's inevitable that everyone's experience will

28:03

inform them the some degree, but

28:05

the you have worked incredibly hard

28:07

to be disinterested in dispassionate about

28:10

your pursuit of the data. It

28:12

sounds like you are not backing

28:14

away from that, but adding something

28:16

to that now, which is that

28:19

as much as data and empirical

28:21

thinking can do that, people are

28:23

people and it's really hard to

28:26

understand people often, but extremely important

28:28

to do so. Absolutely.

28:31

He I think I need to go and in

28:33

my own way, reflect and think about how I

28:35

need to incorporate that Because when I reflect on

28:37

my own experience, Even

28:39

though I am and immigrants, I

28:41

didn't want to emigrate because I

28:43

had negative stereotypes about immigrants when

28:45

I came here to the Us.

28:48

I've made a very sharp distinction

28:50

between me as a. Educated

28:52

immigrant who was coming here.

28:55

On a student visa and you

28:57

know all those other immigrants that

28:59

I thought you know I wasn't

29:01

like who. Perhaps. Don't

29:03

come here for education or might.

29:05

Cross. The border without authorization.

29:08

But. As I started interacting with

29:10

undocumented immigrants in the Us for

29:12

variety of reasons whether it's my

29:14

barber who I tell a long

29:17

story about him in the book,

29:19

or others through you know, church,

29:21

family experiences, community, I started realizing

29:23

it's just much more complicated. I

29:25

had a very simplistic understanding of

29:27

who these people are, why they

29:29

made the decision to cross the

29:31

border illegally, and so that led

29:33

me to. Go. To the

29:35

data and think, okay, what are these

29:37

immigrants do in who are they and

29:39

why do we have such a permanent.

29:42

Population. Of undocumented immigrants and

29:44

so. I guess is

29:46

my very long way to say that

29:48

my own journey required decomposing. The.

29:51

Why? of how I think about this

29:53

topic and so. Perhaps. I've

29:55

underestimated the need to do that myself

29:57

with others and be more patient with.

30:03

That again was the crunch and

30:05

as thanks to him and everyone

30:07

who took weeks quiz today and

30:09

this concludes our series, the True

30:11

Story of America as supremely messed

30:14

up Immigration system for Economics Radio

30:16

is produced by Sticker and Redbud

30:18

Radio. You can find our entire

30:20

archive on any podcast app also

30:22

freakonomics.com where we published transcripts and

30:24

so notice This episode was produced

30:26

by Alina Common in fact with

30:29

Instance or staff also includes because

30:31

Chapman, Eleanor Osborne, Elsa Hernandez. Gabriel

30:33

Ross, Greg Griffin, Jasmine Klinger Jeremy

30:35

Johnston, Julie can first be worked

30:37

out, it's Morgan Levy Meal Truth

30:39

Rebecca Lead, Douglas and Sarah Lilies

30:41

or theme song is Mister Fortune

30:43

by the Hitchhikers. All the other

30:45

music was composed by Sierra As

30:48

always, thank you since. We.

30:52

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30:54

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