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your life. He

1:17

there it's Stephen Dubner. We just

1:19

started publishing a series called the

1:21

True Story of America is supremely

1:24

messed up Immigration System. As we

1:26

were working on the series, we

1:28

came across an interview we did

1:30

back in Twenty Fifteen for and

1:33

episode called is Migration a basic

1:35

Human Right We interviewed a variety

1:37

of people that episode economists, political

1:40

scientists, refugees from Egypt and Syria

1:42

and they all had very different

1:44

perspectives on immigration. There was. One

1:47

interview that really stayed with me.

1:49

But think it is a human right?

1:51

But I do think that. There

1:54

is a sense where.

1:57

Somebody. taking my bread, So

2:00

why don't they live in their own country?

2:02

That is the voice of Madeline

2:04

Albright. She was born in Prague

2:06

in Nineteen Thirty Seven and was

2:08

a refugee in her youth. Twice,

2:11

As you may know, Albright would

2:13

go on to serve as Us

2:15

Secretary of State under President Bill

2:17

Clinton. She was also Us Ambassador

2:19

to the United Nations. Albright died

2:21

in Twenty Twenty two. At.

2:23

Age eighty four today and wanted to

2:25

share this conversation with you. As a

2:28

bonus episode in our Immigration series, there

2:30

has been a lot of scenes in

2:32

the world since Twenty Fifth Team and

2:35

we spoke, but I think he will

2:37

find that Albright's worldview is almost strangely

2:39

appropriate for the present moment. One thing

2:42

worth mentioning since we talk a bit

2:44

about the European Union your the beginning

2:46

of the episodes. This conversation took place

2:48

before the Twenty Sixteen Bricks It referendum

2:51

on the Uk voted to leave. The

2:54

As always Thanks for

2:56

listening! Hello

2:59

Madam Secretary! Hi. How are

3:01

you? Very well? Thanks for joining us today. Delighted!

3:04

Please. Begin just saying your name and what

3:06

to do? My name is

3:09

Madeleine Albright and Iran. The Albright celebrates

3:11

group as one of the chairs and

3:13

I teach at Georgetown and I am

3:15

chairman of the board of the National

3:18

Democratic Institute, among other things. Are

3:20

among other things. you were the Us

3:22

Secretary of State. before that, Us Ambassador

3:24

to the United Nations craft. Absolutely. That

3:27

is true. And you just

3:29

quickly give us your family's background and

3:31

how that journey brought you here. Where

3:34

my father was the Czechoslovak

3:36

diplomat. And. Out when

3:38

the Nazis marched into Prague

3:41

March. Nineteen thirty know. I

3:43

was two years old and

3:45

my parents decided that they

3:47

had to leave and so

3:49

they managed to get out

3:51

and we went to London

3:53

and lived there. Then we

3:55

were refugees after the war

3:57

went back to Czechoslovakia. My

4:00

father worked in the foreign ministry

4:02

and then became the Czechoslovak ambassador

4:05

you the Slava. When.

4:07

The Communists took over in February.

4:09

Nineteen, Forty Eight. He. Had

4:11

just gotten a new assignment and.

4:14

He. Did not want to work

4:16

for the Communists and in November

4:18

nineteen Forty eight first my mother,

4:20

brother and sister and I came

4:22

to the United States and them

4:25

my father joined us. In.

4:27

December. My father,

4:29

as I said, did not want

4:31

to work for the Communists and

4:34

so he resigned, defected and asked

4:36

for political asylum in the United

4:39

States and it was granted and

4:41

we were technically called displaced persons.

4:43

We were refugees, and I hesitate

4:46

to compare myself at all to

4:48

the people. That now

4:50

are. Walking. In

4:53

deserts and drowning in

4:55

boats and being. Refused

4:58

entry. Because my story was

5:00

clearly one where we didn't have

5:03

that kind of suffering in order

5:05

to get into the United States.

5:07

But my father on a regular

5:09

basis would say. Other countries

5:11

say sorry your country's been taken

5:13

over by terrible people and ah

5:15

you're welcome here on when a

5:17

going home and when we came

5:19

to the United States table would

5:21

say we're sorry your country's been

5:24

taken over by a terrible system

5:26

you're welcome here and when we

5:28

you become citizens and he said

5:30

that is the difference between other

5:32

countries and America. It's

5:34

hard for me to imagine that your own

5:36

background did not inform the way you look

5:38

debts geopolitics as a professional, but maybe I'm

5:40

wrong. Can you talk about that for a

5:43

moment? Yes, Absolutely it

5:45

is true and the following way.

5:47

I. Am a child of World

5:49

War Two and the Cold War. There's

5:52

no question about that. As you mentioned,

5:54

I was and bastard the United Nations.

5:56

And when I saw. What? Was

5:58

happening in the Balkans. And. People

6:01

being loaded into trucks

6:03

and trains and sent

6:05

to concentration/labor camps. I

6:08

thought we seen this

6:10

before. And when

6:12

people in Bosnia and

6:14

Kosovo later, we're being

6:16

ethnically cleansed only because.

6:19

They. Were Muslims, I thought we

6:21

can't have that. When I was

6:23

in the government when I could

6:26

argue for us doing something and

6:28

so yes very much, I was

6:30

informed by my own background. In

6:32

addition, I later found out about

6:35

my Jewish background and people thought.

6:37

That. May be my actions in Bosnia

6:39

had to do with that, it didn't

6:42

I mean because I have this he

6:44

knew about the holocaust said didn't however

6:46

know that it applied to my own

6:49

family. but there is no question that

6:51

might backgrounds definitely informed the way that

6:53

I see things. I'd

6:56

like to speak with you for a bit

6:58

about the notion of open borders Generally Let's

7:00

begin with the sing in agreement that permits

7:02

citizens of most you country to travel freely

7:04

from one country to the next. What's your

7:07

view of that agreement generally? I

7:09

think generally it's a very good idea.

7:11

I think put his finances saints is

7:14

to just look at the evolution. Of

7:16

Europe. Where. Of to

7:19

horrendous world wars took place

7:21

as a result of. Aggression

7:24

and rampant nationalism. These are

7:26

very small countries around the

7:29

whole and the distances. In

7:32

Europe are very. Small, I know. when

7:34

we came to the United States

7:36

and ah we would drive from

7:38

Denver to Seattle. Mime parents was

7:40

set for This is like driving

7:42

from Paris to us Berlin's whereas

7:44

in the United sates she is

7:46

just open space. So as the

7:49

evolution after World War Two came

7:51

about and the European Union came

7:53

together there really was a thought

7:55

that open borders were the way

7:57

to go and that the same

7:59

getting. Raymond. That is

8:01

the codification of it. I

8:03

know that there are obviously

8:05

a lot of questions at

8:07

this point about his bets.

8:10

They it is based on

8:12

the fact that within Europe

8:14

there would be opened Travel.

8:16

But. To get into the Shanghai and

8:18

System. There. Has to be

8:20

some rules and verifications of

8:22

who people are. So

8:25

in a case like missing an area,

8:27

what. Is. The Border. How does the

8:29

nature of what a border is? Scenes. Well,

8:32

if I might kind of put

8:34

this into a larger context, it

8:36

is an attempt to. Get

8:39

over national differences. But.

8:42

What has happened is that.

8:44

To. Some extent, the European Union

8:46

is kind of faceless and

8:49

given. Things. That have been

8:51

going on in the last few

8:53

years. People feel a need to

8:55

have an identity of some kind

8:57

and so people group with. Their

8:59

own kind. Whether it's ethnic or

9:01

religious or linguistics or the borders

9:04

that used to be and sell

9:06

all of a sudden there is

9:08

within the Sheng and system. And

9:10

of a return to national pride

9:12

one my put it that way

9:14

does. It surprise you are know. That?

9:17

well, it doesn't, it doesn't. Frankly, even

9:19

in the United States, people call themselves

9:22

in. A Check American or anti

9:24

an American. Everybody wants to

9:26

have some kind of an identity.

9:28

What surprises me. Is.

9:30

Virulent nationalism. Has.

9:33

Taken hold in some places,

9:35

hungry being the most acute

9:37

example of it, and that

9:39

does surprise me. And

9:42

I think is very very damaging. I

9:44

can explain his in terms of this

9:46

kind of. Faceless,

9:48

Of the European Union and the

9:51

need for identity, I can't explain

9:53

it in terms of pragmatism and

9:55

what should the happenings? So this

9:57

kind of a real creation of.

10:00

Orders. And then

10:02

the aspect of the

10:04

humanitarian influx. Of. The

10:07

refugees and migrants has.

10:10

Frankly, Made it worse. I think

10:12

it's a step backward. I really do

10:14

think Ice I can see that is

10:17

very important to have an identity. We

10:19

all have lots of different identities

10:21

cycle understand that but when your identity

10:23

depends on hating the other people, And.

10:27

Closing the door then you have

10:29

damage to the process of try

10:31

to figure out how we all

10:33

live together. What do you think?

10:35

Creed. Said. I mean on the one

10:38

hand, you could argue that the further

10:40

we get in this you know, human

10:42

experiments in the experiment of civilization, and

10:44

so on. The. Less we

10:46

discriminate, the less we distinguish Solas

10:48

Tribal we get. On the other

10:50

hand, you see that this tendency,

10:53

whether it's human nature we're conditioned

10:55

or economic, whatever it's driven by,

10:57

the is real. So what do

10:59

you think distinguishes either a person

11:01

or community or even a nice

11:03

And who gets to be that?

11:05

I'm know if we want to

11:07

go so far as to college

11:09

xena phobic, but who treasures the

11:11

distinction between people as opposed to

11:13

would rather see those distinctions be

11:16

ameliorated. But I think

11:18

the basic issue a seer. And.

11:21

The seer often comes from.

11:23

A sense that there's an economic a

11:25

loss that some that he's taken. Your

11:28

job Or your house. Or. Married.

11:30

Your sister. But what bothers me

11:32

the most is that. When.

11:35

What is a natural

11:37

fear of economic deprivation

11:39

is then. Exacerbated.

11:42

By the political. Needs of a

11:45

demagogic leader. And. I

11:47

would put Viktor Orban and Hungry in

11:49

that category. Who. Takes advantage

11:52

of this sense of

11:54

compression or seer. And.

11:56

Then makes the political ideology out

11:58

of it that. Makes it worse.

12:01

Okay, so let's talk about a scenario

12:03

that would be quite the opposite of

12:06

that. Let's talk about a world where

12:08

open borders are the norm. So the

12:10

economist Alex Tab Rock wrote for the

12:13

Atlantic recently calling for basically getting rid

12:15

of borders for moral. And

12:17

economic reasons and he argues

12:19

that. The. Freedom to move where

12:21

we want is an essential human right. That A

12:24

let me I'm If you, If you don't my

12:26

Madam Secretary like to read, you just have a

12:28

bit briefly from what he said to us in

12:30

an interview or moral intuitions and indeed, our laws

12:32

today are that you shouldn't discriminate against someone because

12:35

of their race. Gender. Sexual preference,

12:37

etc. But for odd reasons, it's perfectly

12:39

okay to discriminate against someone because they

12:41

were born somewhere else. You can infect,

12:44

put up walls and machine guns, and

12:46

prevent someone from moving simpli for the

12:48

reason that they were born somewhere else.

12:50

So I'm not going to ask for

12:53

a yes or no. Do you agree

12:55

or not agree? But do you see

12:57

this generally as an agreement that you

13:00

could get behind that? The freedom to

13:02

move or you want beyond any border

13:04

is essentially a human right or. Is

13:06

this a kind of hopelessly

13:09

naive argument? politically and even

13:11

economically? Or think it is

13:13

a human right? But I do think

13:15

that. For. Whatever either

13:18

a political reason or.

13:20

As. Hard to differentiate political

13:23

and economic here. There.

13:25

Is a kind of sense where

13:27

he does. somebody is taking my

13:29

bread. So why don't they live

13:31

in their own country? And

13:34

I saying said epic have is

13:36

exacerbated that in the best of

13:38

all possible worlds what you would

13:40

have as the possibility of. Going.

13:43

Wherever you want and

13:45

either staying or. Not.

13:47

Bad. I'm not sure I fully

13:49

agree that we are ready to accept

13:52

everybody. It's This is my problem in

13:54

terms of how you square at the

13:56

need for identity. Pride. In

13:58

your group without. Having a curdle

14:01

insects hatred of somebody else is

14:03

viewed as a zero sum game

14:05

when it actually should be an

14:07

additive and not. It's me against

14:10

you. and just because you're coming,

14:12

I have less. We are living.

14:14

In a borderless virtual world.

14:16

However, As. A result

14:19

of of technology. And.

14:21

There are pros and cons to that, but

14:23

it is borderless. There's no question. What

14:26

would happen and I'm asking you

14:28

to predict the future materialised is

14:30

impossible, but what would happen if

14:33

North America became a another singing

14:35

area. Open. Borders. Us.

14:37

Canada and how would you see that playing out?

14:40

I. Personally would be for a day. You

14:43

know us. But. I do think there

14:45

would be those who would seal

14:47

that. They. Had lost seven

14:49

saying one of the things I

14:52

was involved. In

14:54

that during it's administration in terms

14:56

of Nafta. And. One

14:58

of the things that I did because

15:01

I was at the Un at the

15:03

time was meet regularly with the Canadian

15:05

and Mexican ambassadors and then later with

15:08

the foreign ministers and what we were

15:10

doing was showing what we all had

15:12

in common. the environment, Culture

15:15

and various aspects that

15:17

showed are commonality and.

15:20

If we were to become a

15:22

shank and I think we would have

15:24

to do much more to emphasize the

15:26

commonality of the culture. but I do

15:29

know what's going on now that I

15:31

think. Has to be

15:33

balanced is. Security. Versus

15:36

openness. And. As difficult, there's

15:38

no question we can't operate on the

15:40

basis of fear factor and decide that

15:42

just to send that he doesn't look

15:45

exactly the way we do are different

15:47

religions that they're a threat. But.

15:49

What's happened? Unfortunately, his way of move

15:51

backwards on this rather. Than forwards.

15:54

Suit Madam Secretary I have to ask,

15:56

do you watch Madam Secretary the Tv

15:58

So yeah I do. Yeah. So

16:02

I'm guessing you've noticed that the secretary

16:04

in that so is briefly made. Acting.

16:07

President when the line of succession

16:09

gets to her through a series

16:11

of circumstance. But because you are

16:13

not a natural born Us citizen,

16:15

that was not a possibility for

16:17

you. I understand you're also excluded

16:19

from nuclear contingency plans and so

16:21

on. Did you and or do

16:23

you consider those exclusions sensible based

16:25

on your but having been foreign

16:28

born or more of a strange

16:30

historical relics. I think it

16:32

is a little bit of a

16:34

strange historical relics. Because of the

16:36

Hamilton Say place, I do think

16:39

that naturalized citizens should be eligible,

16:41

but after living in the country

16:43

for a long, long time, I

16:45

think that you cannot be the

16:48

citizens of a country that you've

16:50

just kind of arrived in. And.

16:52

I do think that it

16:54

requires understanding the country the

16:56

opposite. However, he didn't ask

16:58

me this. bets present have

17:00

wanted me to become the

17:03

President of as a Czech

17:05

Republic and I refuse. For any

17:07

number of reasons, but one. Because.

17:09

I hadn't lived there. I didn't understand

17:12

it. Let me ask you,

17:14

an impossibly broad are difficult question. Maybe it's

17:16

not so difficult for you. How

17:18

would you. Characterize the

17:20

United States as immigration policies

17:23

of the last couple centuries,

17:25

have they been largely sensible

17:28

and productive? or somewhat random

17:30

and occasionally contradictory Been xena

17:33

phobic. I think

17:35

that they have been episodic.

17:37

I think that's mostly we

17:39

have to remember though we

17:41

are a country of immigrants

17:43

and therefore they clearly have

17:45

worked and I am very

17:47

troubled by. Some. As a

17:49

discussion now. I have renewed

17:52

my bows on a regular basis

17:54

as an American, and I didn't

17:56

become a citizen until I was

17:58

a. Junior in college. And.

18:01

I. Take it very

18:03

seriously. I I have now participated

18:06

in a number of naturalization ceremonies.

18:08

I can't be the person that

18:10

swears the new citizens in because

18:12

I'm not an officer the law,

18:15

but I am a person that

18:17

has handed out the naturalization certificates

18:19

to people and. Will

18:22

have to say the most moving one

18:24

was on July fourth. two thousand during

18:26

the millennium and Marcelo and as I

18:28

handed the naturalization certificates to the people

18:31

I said this is the most important

18:33

piece of paper you will ever get.

18:35

I have the same one. Guard it

18:38

with your life. Coming

18:42

up after the break. Madeline Albright

18:44

on what can be learned from

18:46

a refugee crisis. I'm Steven Dubner.

18:48

This is a bonus episode Freakonomics

18:50

Radio. We Will Be Where. Are

18:58

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21:37

We spoke with Madeleine Albright in

21:39

Twenty Sixteen. One pressing immigration story

21:42

was the flow of refugees were

21:44

fleeing civil war in Syria. I

21:46

want to know how Albright thought

21:48

the U and the Obama Administration

21:51

has handled the crisis in Syria.

21:53

I should also note the conflict

21:55

in Syria continues today, although with

21:58

much less attention paid by. The

22:00

rest of the world. I

22:02

think it is serve as complicated

22:04

as anything that I've seen serious

22:06

self within the context of everything

22:08

that's going on in the Middle

22:10

East. But. For. Me: Obviously

22:13

I'm not in the government and

22:15

I am not as informed as

22:17

somebody that is the government's but

22:19

I would have done more. Earlier.

22:22

In terms of trying to be supportive

22:25

of the rebels, Were they.

22:27

A group that. Could. Be

22:29

supported. I don't know all the answers,

22:31

but from my perspective I wish we

22:33

had done that. I believe

22:36

that it would be a good idea

22:38

to establish some safe zones. There are

22:40

lessons learned about how not to do

22:42

them. From. What we did nord tried

22:44

to do in Bosnia and Kosovo. but I do

22:47

think. That there has

22:49

to be some way to be able

22:51

to protect people. From their

22:53

own governments. Frankly. And

22:56

then also having been in Jordan

22:58

two years ago and being very

23:00

aware of the burden that is

23:02

placed on Jordan itself for all

23:04

the refugees that are there also

23:06

in Lebanon and Turkey is that

23:08

there needs to be some additional

23:10

help to those countries because they're

23:12

kind of front line states and

23:14

all of this. And.

23:17

Then try to work towards a

23:19

political solution because to get back

23:21

to. The. Original point about

23:23

being a refugee. People.

23:26

Want to live in the country where

23:28

they were born? I say that nothing

23:30

is more important in my life than

23:32

becoming an American. but I do think

23:34

generally what people want is to be

23:36

in a place where they speak the

23:38

language. Have an extended

23:41

family understand the environments it's

23:43

there in. And. So there

23:45

has to be a political solution. There

23:48

are an estimated twelve million Syrians who

23:50

left their homes because of the word,

23:52

their half of them ruff, weird or

23:54

children, many still in neighboring countries, some

23:57

heading for Europe. Some may be heading

23:59

here again. Large, large, large question.

24:01

but what's your best idea for

24:04

bettering. Their. Resettlement

24:06

and or eventual return. Especially

24:08

keeping in mind what you

24:10

learn from the Balkan refugee

24:12

situation after those wars. Where

24:15

I think there several parts to this

24:17

obviously the best. Situation.

24:19

Would be the have some kind of a political.

24:22

Solution. In Syria itself. Going

24:24

on, What I said earlier about people

24:26

actually wanting to live in the countries

24:28

where they were born and where their

24:31

families are. Then. I do

24:33

saying. That. There needs to be.

24:36

A way to establish some kind

24:38

of safe zones and say there

24:40

he is using the lessons that

24:43

we learn and the Balkans of

24:45

making sure that they are properly

24:47

protected and. Are. Not. Havens

24:50

for people that want to undermine

24:52

them. but at least and they

24:55

would be proximate. And.

24:57

That provide a place for people so

24:59

that they didn't have to track you

25:01

know, with a child on their back

25:03

in. There worldly goods dragged

25:06

behind, Them I would also then

25:08

do more. To. Be helpful

25:10

to the neighboring. Countries. Then.

25:13

The other part that I don't see

25:15

why we can't figure out with the

25:17

help of. The. Un Refugee

25:20

Organization as well as

25:22

where the European Union

25:24

is how to build.

25:26

Facilities: In

25:28

various. Countries. Near

25:30

their borders so that people actually

25:33

can live in or bring trailers.

25:35

I mean, there are any number

25:37

of ways I'm amazed at how

25:39

overwhelm the system has been. In

25:42

terms of not being able to deal with

25:44

just the facilities of things, And.

25:46

Then I do think that. It

25:48

would be a good idea

25:51

if various countries took. Syrian.

25:53

Refugees in the thing that I

25:55

sign hard about and again this

25:57

goes back to my background and.

26:00

Traveling across this huge country

26:02

we have room and the

26:04

United States for people and

26:06

immigrants have. Been. Pretty

26:08

good citizens, frankly. And want

26:10

to be a part of this country. And.

26:12

Is very hard for us to

26:14

tell other countries. That. Have

26:17

more dense populations, endless space

26:19

that you know you do.

26:21

Same thing and we are.

26:24

Saying. Not here. I

26:26

believe in the role of the United

26:29

States. I happen to believe we are

26:31

an exceptional nation. Of

26:33

immigrants. We are exceptional,

26:35

but we can't ask that exceptions be

26:37

made for us. I. Think

26:39

we need to provide a better

26:42

example. And. Then a

26:44

support the international organizations whose job

26:46

it is to do a lot

26:48

of this. Make sure that the

26:51

Un. Refugee. Operation

26:53

is funded, that the World Food

26:55

Programme is funded, and that we

26:57

helped them and do a multilateral approach

26:59

to this as well as a national

27:02

one. But let me ask

27:04

you if I may. I realize I've already

27:06

taken more time than you promise. but it

27:08

it if you don't mind I've one more

27:10

question and like to ask him from of

27:13

a video by the International Rescue Committee where

27:15

I'd like to read you back a quote

27:17

from you. You said diversity is what makes

27:19

our society's richer in every single way in

27:21

the Twenty first century and diversity is our

27:24

strings. Now let's assume that one agrees with

27:26

your position on the strength of diversity. The

27:28

practical question to my mind at least becomes

27:30

then how does one meaning a nation. A

27:33

government, even if any community. How

27:35

does one balance? That

27:37

strength with the realities of immigration

27:40

and economics. And so, in other

27:42

words, how does one sensibly set

27:44

the rules? For. Who's allowed

27:46

to move into a country? and who's not.

27:49

Because if we presumably opened up with, say,

27:51

be American borders to anyone and everyone, we'd

27:53

get pretty crowded pretty fast and I assume

27:55

that's not be idea that you have in

27:57

mind. Look I do saying

27:59

their need to be. Certain.

28:02

Rules. For coming into. A

28:05

country I find stunning. The following

28:07

set of facts: Jordan as

28:09

I said I had been there. They have.

28:11

Refugees from. Iraq.

28:14

Palestine and Syria. In

28:17

numbers, proportional numbers to

28:19

their population. It is

28:22

as though the United

28:24

States had sixty million

28:26

refugees. We. Can't even

28:28

deal with eleven million undocumented

28:31

workers. I think that where

28:33

we have been makes no

28:35

sense at all. and there

28:37

needs to be absences. Syrian

28:39

issue even before some kind

28:41

of a rational immigration program

28:43

for the United States. How

28:45

people come here what's the

28:47

procedure is fairness, legality, a

28:49

whole aspect of things. Having

28:52

gone through and naturalization process

28:54

myself, I do think it

28:56

is important to know. Who.

28:58

Is who. Have people study

29:00

the constitution. I happen to think

29:02

it's useful. I mean, I speak

29:05

a number of languages, but I

29:07

do think it's important for people

29:09

to be able to speak and

29:11

understand English, but I do think

29:13

that is the default position should

29:16

be. That. We. Do.

29:18

Better sit by the diversity. That

29:21

we can use more people.

29:23

That. People want to

29:25

work. And. That there can and

29:27

will be jobs for them. It doesn't

29:30

mean that we can just say your

29:32

hub. I do saying that

29:34

there has to be some way

29:37

of checking who is who. I

29:39

do believe that and having just

29:41

been involved in a discussion with

29:44

people who describe what the procedure

29:46

now is. For Syrian refugees

29:48

to come in. It. Is

29:51

stunningly. Detailed.

29:53

And rigorous. And

29:55

so I signed. Appalling.

29:58

That. There are those. In.

30:01

Public. Office who are saying not in

30:03

my state. And. I do

30:05

think that what people should do. Is.

30:08

Frankly, put themselves into the

30:10

shoes of somebody. Who.

30:13

Is desperate. And.

30:15

Good. And wants to

30:17

contribute and is treated in an

30:19

inhuman way. When they arrive at

30:22

a border. We

30:30

should say you are admittedly probably

30:32

the number one poster girl for

30:34

immigration to United States. We were

30:36

pretty lucky to get you. Well,

30:39

I certainly am great. Thought

30:41

I'd describe myself on my

30:43

twitter. Accounts as a great

30:46

full American. you. Try to

30:48

do everything you can to pay back, Believe

30:50

me, Every day I am

30:52

grateful. To have been accepts in this

30:55

country and I'd do have to keep

30:57

saying I didn't have. A Tragic Stories

30:59

in terms of barbed wire. both

31:01

the lead. I came here in

31:03

a very dignified way and I'm

31:05

sitting in my office and I

31:08

haven't front of me. The

31:10

manifest as the ship that I

31:12

came in on the Ss America.

31:14

On November. Eleventh. Nineteen Forty Eight

31:16

I have my commissions on

31:18

the. Wall. Signed by President

31:21

Clinton and then if I may on

31:23

the other side I have a medal

31:25

of Freedom that President Obama gave me.

31:28

That's my story and I'm grateful to

31:30

be at American. That

31:34

again was Madeline Albright served as

31:36

Us Secretary of State for making

31:38

ninety seven to two thousand. And

31:40

she died in twenty Twenty two.

31:43

Freakonomics reuse produced by Stature and Rent

31:45

But Radio. You can find our entire

31:48

archive on any podcast. App of with

31:50

freakonomics.com where we published transcripts and

31:52

so notes. This interview was produced

31:54

by or of a Guns Are

31:56

In edited by Alina Coleman or

31:58

staff also includes Ago The Chapman,

32:00

Eleanor Osborne, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Ross,

32:02

Greg Griffin, Jasmine Klinger, Jeremy Johnson,

32:04

Julie Can First we're about it's

32:07

Morgan Levy, Milk or Ruth. Rebecca

32:09

Li Douglas, Sarah, Lily and Zach.

32:11

Within seats are theme song is

32:13

Mister Fortune by the Hitchhikers. All

32:15

the other music was composed by

32:17

Really scary as always. Thank you

32:19

for listening. I

32:23

do have kind of a cloth so if

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I start coughing they may have said do

32:28

something drastic. Well as it's any consolation, I

32:30

have a cough to so you may get sympathy

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