0:00

Hello. Hello. Good morning. Hi,

0:02

Stefan. Good morning. You can turn your video off.

0:04

If you like, we can just do audio for

0:06

this, but, uh, hello,

0:09

hello. Nice to meet you. I'm glad we could,

0:11

uh, get our chat on,

0:13

get her chat in. So I'm all

0:15

yours, man. How can I best help? Hey,

0:19

uh, good morning. How'd you sleep last

0:21

night? Very well. Thank you. Have

0:25

your coffee yet. Uh, um, um, juiced

0:27

and ready to roll. Same

0:30

here. So long

0:32

time listener, about a decade,

0:35

first time caller. Um, so

0:41

you could imagine it from my point of

0:44

view, like you, I've

0:46

had Stefan wisdom

0:48

and voice, uh,

0:51

in my, in my life, like

0:53

the, you know, the, uh, the guiding light

0:57

that I, you know, that

0:59

all of these, uh, parentless kids, uh,

1:02

never, you know, never got

1:04

moral instruction or, or

1:07

anything of virtue. And

1:09

here I am, I'm finally talking to

1:11

you. And it's, uh, I was so

1:13

excited, uh, to, to

1:16

have the opportunity to, I was actually

1:18

pressured into this call by one

1:21

of my closest personal friends. And,

1:24

um, I

1:27

was really resistant at first cause I'm stubborn to a

1:29

fault and, uh, really

1:35

big on my privacy, but

1:38

listen to my buddy and, and

1:40

here we are. And I'm rambling and,

1:42

uh, that's great. Hopefully

1:45

there won't be a, I won't snap my fingers at the

1:47

end. You'll wake up and it will all have been a

1:49

dream. But, uh, yeah. So, uh,

1:51

why, why did your friend say that

1:54

we should talk? Well,

1:57

um, I've been working

1:59

diligently. for the

2:01

better part of two years

2:03

to find a wife and

2:07

be a family man and raise

2:09

kids. And as we all know,

2:11

the dating market is interesting.

2:15

And I am very

2:17

active, very busy, and

2:19

give constant feedback with my

2:22

buddies about the dates and

2:25

my experiences and they

2:31

are very keen on

2:33

all of your work and they RTR

2:35

in their own life, all

2:39

about UPB, very

2:41

high speed, philosophical, close,

2:43

personal friends of mine, some

2:45

of which have already begun their journey

2:47

into peaceful parenting, their own families and

2:49

her fathers, and some are in the

2:51

same position as me, aspiring.

2:55

And they

2:57

had noticed, especially because

2:59

I was transparent

3:05

with my childhood, as some

3:09

of us in the group have been, that I

3:12

had a particularly brutal

3:17

childhood and they

3:19

were curious. Like, do you

3:21

think that

3:23

some of these

3:26

girls are picking

3:29

up on that

3:31

or obviously you're very high functioning,

3:33

you're a business owner and you

3:36

don't have any substance abuse issues

3:38

and great looking guy, six feet

3:40

tall. Maybe

3:43

this is just something like one

3:45

more stone you could unturn, just

3:47

so that you could say you're

3:49

doing everything. Who better to run

3:52

your story by than the man? And I've

4:03

had a couple friends call into your

4:05

show already and we're all

4:08

so grateful for the gifts

4:12

that you're giving to humanity

4:15

and very humbled that

4:17

we just... I would just want to

4:19

tell if this call does make it public, I'd

4:21

like to encourage future call-ins.

4:25

I had scheduled

4:27

a call-in last night,

4:29

close to midnight, it is 10am the next

4:32

day and I am speaking with the

4:35

greatest philosopher of our generation at

4:37

no cost. I can't believe

4:39

that I waited this long to take

4:41

advantage of this opportunity and I'm already

4:44

feeling inspired to donate more to

4:46

you and to give back

4:48

to philosophy so that other people can find

4:55

happiness. I

4:58

appreciate all of that, I certainly appreciate your kind

5:00

words and do you want to

5:03

start with le childhood or something else?

5:10

Yeah, I'll start with my childhood. That's

5:13

what my friends are really

5:15

curious to see your feedback on.

5:23

So I am a

5:25

middle child with an older

5:29

sister, three years older and

5:31

a younger brother about a

5:35

year or so younger than

5:37

me and

5:39

my parents managed to keep

5:42

their marriage

5:44

together for 35 years

5:46

and got divorced in 2020 and... I'm

5:58

sorry, just one minor technical note. and

6:00

some wicked breathing noises. And maybe it's when

6:02

you breathe through your nose or maybe the mic

6:04

is too close to an air passageway, but that

6:06

is kind of coming in. All

6:08

of my buddies tell me that I do

6:10

that. And I like the standard

6:13

you set for phone

6:15

call quality and I'm

6:18

guilty there. So I'm gonna- Don't worry about it. It's

6:20

just, if you could do anything about it, right? If

6:22

not, no worries. We'll clean it up in post. Okay,

6:27

thank you so much for letting me know.

6:32

So, train-

6:39

Sorry, you were just saying middle child. Yep,

6:41

middle child. I

6:46

have been defood from

6:48

my parents for four years.

6:53

I waited way too late. My

6:58

dad passed away in the day after

7:00

Christmas, 2022. My

7:08

mom and my sister

7:10

are codependent and live together. And

7:13

my brother is married and

7:16

I'm fairly certain childless, but I'm no

7:19

contact with anybody, especially

7:23

since my dad died. And I've

7:26

been almost limited, no contact whatsoever

7:29

for four years. I

7:32

grew up in the deep,

7:35

deep South. And- And

7:37

sorry, you don't have to give me your actual age, but 20s, 30s? Mid

7:42

30s. Mid 30s, okay, sorry, go ahead. Never

7:45

married, no kids. Um,

7:51

my mom was born and raised

7:53

in England and my dad is

7:55

from Michigan.

8:00

And he enlisted in the Navy right out

8:03

of high school. He had a terrible,

8:08

vicious childhood. He had three older

8:11

brothers and one younger brother. I

8:13

don't really know that much about my

8:15

dad's life. Hardly

8:19

ever even spoke to me growing

8:22

up at all. Any

8:25

little half or quarter of

8:27

a story, he did share with

8:29

me, was like a

8:32

gold nugget of wit, like of his

8:34

lore, so to speak. But I really

8:36

don't, I don't know the man. Like

8:38

he's just... Well, I mean,

8:40

sorry to interrupt. It's sort of a cliche

8:43

that a

8:45

girl who has a bad father, a

8:47

bad family or whatever, or is

8:49

being abused at home runs into the

8:51

arms of a man who's, you

8:54

know, even the same or worse usually. But

8:56

she uses sexuality to get

8:58

out of a bad situation. The

9:00

Army often serves the same function, or in this

9:02

case, the Navy serves the same function for men.

9:05

A lot of times, like I'm in a really bad situation,

9:07

I need to get away from it. So rather

9:09

than being able to get a guy to pay for your, your

9:12

room and board, so to speak, you just run to the

9:14

Army and have the state pay for your room and board,

9:16

and often it is that kind of escape mechanism. Well

9:21

said, well spoken. My

9:26

father had a- And so if you've been able to talk to you,

9:28

was he gone a lot? I mean, Navy you'd think, right? Or was it

9:31

mostly done by the time you got older? Actually,

9:35

the story is gonna take a little bit

9:37

of a curve. So as

9:39

he was enlisted in the Navy, he

9:41

had chosen as his dream destination that

9:45

they give you a choice. If you could go travel

9:47

in the Navy anywhere in the world where he didn't

9:49

go career in the Navy to answer your question, but

9:52

when he got a choice, as far

9:54

as American ports, he had chosen Italy

9:57

as his dream destination.

10:01

and he arrived at

10:03

the US Naval Base of

10:05

Guyana in southern Italy. And

10:10

my mother and her girlfriend,

10:13

Platonic, were a vacation traveling, working

10:16

their way across Europe to experience

10:18

Europe when they were young. She

10:21

was bartending in Europe

10:23

and they had met,

10:26

and that's where the quote unquote

10:28

romance had begun. And

10:31

he had gotten out of the

10:33

Navy after like four years, honorable

10:35

discharge, pen pal'd with my mom

10:37

for quite a while to save up

10:40

the money to immigrate her to

10:43

the south of southern

10:45

part of America where he was living and

10:48

working for his father. And

10:52

they had begun to start a family. My

10:54

dad had a terrible relationship with

10:56

his dad, working in his family

10:58

business, and they

11:01

split off, no contact.

11:04

I was told that I met my dad's

11:06

dad when I was a little baby, but

11:08

I have no memory of him ever. And

11:12

the few times I saw my grandmother,

11:15

my dad's mom, she had covertly

11:18

lied to her husband to come and

11:20

visit, like saying she was running an

11:22

errand to come and visit us, and

11:24

we all knew that. Like

11:26

the time's limited, you can

11:28

see your grandma, but she's got to go

11:31

and your dad and his dad aren't really

11:33

close right now. And then my

11:37

mom's family, they're all, the

11:39

Atlantic Ocean is between me and them. So

11:42

the few times I've seen them in

11:44

my life, or barely even spoken

11:46

to them, like that just whole half of that

11:48

family is just, there's

11:51

nothing there. Umm.

12:00

Man, the totality of my childhood. Well,

12:04

we don't have to do the totality. I think

12:07

we're just looking for the parts that most influence

12:09

the present. Yeah.

12:14

He had split off from his dad's business

12:16

and started the same version on his own,

12:19

and was the sole

12:21

breadwinner for the home,

12:24

and my mom was a stay-at-home mom with

12:26

three kids. We

12:29

went into the public school and we

12:31

were all just

12:34

put in front of televisions as

12:36

kids. TVs raised our family.

12:40

There was no actual love

12:42

ever. It

12:46

was money. Sorry.

12:48

You don't have any memories of your mom

12:50

taking delight in your company, or let's play

12:52

a board game, or let's go for

12:54

a bike ride, so she didn't

12:57

seem to take much pleasure. In

12:59

your company or the company of your siblings, so

13:01

what was she doing? I guess if the kids

13:04

were on screens, what was she stay-at-home? What's

13:06

she stay-at-home for? There

13:11

was tenderness and some

13:14

attempts at love from her,

13:16

but she had a major

13:20

mental breakdown about five years into

13:22

her marriage, when I was about

13:25

three, where

13:27

she howled out one morning.

13:29

I can't take it anymore at the top

13:31

of her lungs, because she had realized the

13:35

tragedy of the man she had married, and

13:38

she had gotten on a heavy dose

13:40

of antidepressants. She tried as

13:42

she might to make some

13:44

memories and to try

13:47

to express love. I'm sorry. You

13:49

were how old at this point?

13:53

I was like three. Three, sorry. Okay, got it.

13:55

And she'd realized the tragedy of the man

13:58

she'd married. That's very poetic, but I... I

14:00

totally know what it means. So

14:03

she could, she, she said, she's howls out.

14:05

I can't take it anymore. Um, at

14:09

the top of her lungs from her bedroom

14:11

and, um, they

14:14

had almost gotten divorced a couple of years

14:16

prior. Um, because my dad

14:19

was, is the most

14:21

vicious figure that I've ever come across.

14:25

Like he is, um, he

14:29

never hit me and I never saw him. He, that

14:31

was never his weapon of choice was physical

14:33

violence with his family. He

14:36

did get in a ton of fights

14:38

in the Navy and with his brothers and

14:40

growing up in high school

14:42

and he was beaten as

14:44

a kid, but psychological terror,

14:46

intimidation, aggression, verbal aggression, verbal abuse

14:49

were his tools of his trade.

14:52

And he wielded these

14:54

weapons better than I've seen

14:56

any person in my

14:58

life. And okay.

15:01

So for

15:03

what was it, was it sadism or was

15:05

there some other end? Was it any, so

15:08

what was his motivation for this

15:10

cruelty? And also how did it manifest? Like

15:12

what would he say? Oh,

15:18

so I mean curse

15:20

words were just a warm up. Like,

15:22

you know, I'll beat your fucking ass.

15:25

Um, like, and me saying it in

15:27

that tone for

15:30

me to reenact the level of viciousness that he could

15:34

unleash. I don't even

15:37

really want to expose you to like, imagine

15:40

I grew up with a screamer. I don't, I don't have

15:42

to imagine I screw up with a screamer or

15:44

that level of intensity. I don't, my mother, I don't

15:47

think was sadistic. She was just, uh, utterly

15:49

uncontrolled, but, uh, okay.

15:51

So, so was it out of control

15:54

or was it, controlled

15:56

to this level of aggression? Okay.

16:00

So that's not particularly sadistic because

16:04

the sadistic stuff is, you know, like

16:06

the slow, mangly, you know, torture you

16:08

and they take delight in

16:10

your anticipation of the punishment. And so

16:13

if he was out of control, I'm not

16:16

saying it's an absolute, of course, right? But that would

16:18

strike me as less sadistic and more

16:20

just then

16:22

acting out. Sure.

16:25

He was well

16:27

above average IQ and did

16:29

extremely well for himself in industry.

16:33

Now you're probably, yeah, I mean, I could

16:35

totally see that it wasn't as it, but

16:37

it was like pure rage and fury. And

16:44

then like, so

16:47

there's the fury, the fury has two levels, right?

16:49

So the first level is what's being

16:51

said, like I'm angry because,

16:53

you know, and then there'd be some excuse.

16:57

But then, you know, there's an underlying fury,

16:59

which is, you know, what's the real anger

17:01

about? And what would be

17:03

those two levels when he would rage? Um,

17:10

I'm, can you repeat, I'm

17:12

angry about in the other level? Well,

17:15

the other level is, um, what's

17:19

really going on. Like what's really underneath all

17:21

of that anger. So my mom would, you

17:23

know, like I'm angry because you

17:26

didn't wash the dishes properly, but underneath she

17:28

was angry because her looks were fading and

17:30

she wasn't able to lock down the kind

17:32

of man that she wanted. And her vanity

17:34

was being harmed. And like, there was

17:36

a lot of other stuff that was going on, uh,

17:39

that was occurring. I mean, my mom

17:41

was all in on physical looks, right? That's like, there

17:43

was no backup plan. And I mean, she

17:46

was very attractive and all that, but that was her whole plan.

17:48

And when it didn't really work out, that created a lot of

17:51

rage and frustration in her because, you know,

17:53

when you, when you go double or nothing,

17:55

you either win big or you lose everything.

17:57

And she went double or nothing and lost

17:59

everything. And that's, you know, that

18:01

makes people kind of freak out. So there

18:04

is, and you know, even below that, it's probably, you

18:06

know, the war and all that sort of stuff. But

18:08

so there's the surface level stuff. Like here's what I'm

18:10

saying I'm mad about. Then there's the underlying stuff. Like

18:12

where here's what's really going on in

18:14

terms of anger or rage. He

18:20

was constantly

18:22

in a bad mood. Like

18:26

he would have moments of

18:28

like overwhelming charisma. And

18:31

charm, which he utilized in his

18:33

business on command, like

18:36

to become extremely successful of

18:38

two relatively large companies.

18:42

Um, but underneath

18:44

it all, like that

18:46

he had total control over he would,

18:50

in his personal life, he was just. Very

18:56

just hurt, I

18:59

guess from his, from how rough

19:01

his childhood was. And, uh,

19:03

no, but it doesn't translate into

19:05

anger necessarily. Oh,

19:08

what, well, what he would be angry

19:10

about. What would he say he

19:12

was angry with you about when he would scream

19:15

and yell and all of that? Oh,

19:18

like, um, like, uh,

19:20

the way that like I spoke to my

19:22

mom or, um,

19:25

or great or school

19:27

grades or, um,

19:31

or getting, uh, menial, you

19:33

know, work tasks done around the home,

19:35

landscaping, stuff like that. Um, okay. So

19:38

was he a bit of a perfectionist? Like, no matter what you did,

19:40

it wasn't quite right. Correct.

19:42

Okay. Got it. Got it. So,

19:45

okay. So it was mostly minor stuff. It

19:48

wasn't like, uh, you had taken some car

19:51

for a joyride or something like that. So relatively

19:53

minor stuff, like the trim on the, on the

19:55

lawn is not good enough or, you know, you

19:57

miss this spot or something like that. rudeness

20:00

with your mom and all of that. Okay. So that,

20:02

that kind of stuff was the surface level, right? Yes,

20:05

sir. Okay. Now how would he get,

20:08

usually it doesn't go zero to a hundred, right? So

20:10

how would he get to, you know,

20:13

I'm going to beat you from, from, you

20:15

know, you didn't quite mow the lawn properly.

20:18

No, he went zero to a hundred. Oh,

20:21

so you would not, not mow the lawn properly and he'd

20:23

be like screaming at you, I'm going to beat your ass

20:25

because you didn't mow the lawn properly. No,

20:27

no intermediate steps. I'm not doubting

20:29

you. I just want to make sure I understand. Very,

20:32

very few of them. I mean, like I,

20:34

it was constant threat of like being, I

20:36

mean, this was a huge guy too. Like

20:39

not only was he... Constant threat of being

20:41

what? That sounded important. Of

20:43

like being murdered, like that level of intensity. I'm going to,

20:45

I'm going to kill you. I'm going to, I've brought you

20:47

into this world. I can take you out and like that

20:50

kind of stuff. Oh yeah.

20:53

So if he was to take, he would be like, you

20:56

didn't mow the lawn properly. I'm going to

20:59

kill you. Like

21:01

in a serious state. If I

21:03

would have done what you just did to me,

21:05

my dad would have kicked my fucking ass. And

21:09

you're lucky that I don't beat your, you

21:11

know, your effing ass. Like in, in, in

21:14

a, in a, from like this 250, 270

21:16

pound, you know, like land, you know, gorilla of a dude that

21:24

could, that would unleash this

21:26

viciousness that

21:29

I see like UFC fighters, like

21:31

facing off before the fight. And

21:34

he's signaling and out of controlness that would

21:36

have been part of his business success too,

21:38

because he would have been really intimidating to

21:40

his employees. Okay. Oh

21:42

yeah. Yeah. And I

21:44

remember him for 10 years and it

21:47

was, it was a real treat. So

21:50

your mother is,

21:52

I mean,

21:55

profoundly selfish as

21:59

far as I can tell. I'm certainly happy to be corrected

22:01

if that's... No, no,

22:03

this she gets no slack from me

22:05

at all. The fact that she didn't

22:08

even vet for a

22:10

even slightly moral, virtuous

22:13

guy, like, nah. Well,

22:16

I agree, of course, but it's not just that.

22:18

I mean, you're three years old, and

22:21

what does she scream? I

22:24

can't take the getting part. Not,

22:27

oh my gosh, what have I done to these kids? Yeah.

22:31

No, like, so she's like, well, I can't

22:33

take it, as opposed to, I

22:35

don't know, the three-year-old child you had with

22:37

this a-hole, right? So that's

22:39

the I Mimi I stuff, right? Oh

22:42

yeah, big time. And

22:44

did they stay married? They

22:47

made it 35 years until she

22:49

finally couldn't take it anymore. And

22:53

she, well, there was so many

22:55

prophecies that came true with things

22:57

that I had heard from her,

22:59

like, just

23:01

feminist and selfish and solipsistic that

23:03

it was like, yeah, I saw

23:06

this. Sorry, I don't know what you

23:08

mean. The prophecies that you made came true. I don't know what

23:10

that means. Yeah, and I was

23:12

gonna, thank you for being curious. I was

23:14

gonna go right into detail. I, like, she had ordered me.

23:16

Yeah, just give me the details first, because

23:19

if I get the conclusions, I then have to circle back

23:21

to the details. It gets a bit messy in my head,

23:23

but sorry, go ahead. That's

23:25

very fair. So like,

23:29

as early as eight years old, she had kind of

23:31

cornered me in a room alone and was unleashing

23:35

her feminist, manipulative,

23:38

undermining respect for my dad

23:41

and saying that she is

23:43

the one who actually controls

23:45

him and that

23:47

she makes the decisions and that she's

23:50

really in charge. And as like a young, healthy

23:53

boy before the real abuse, like where

23:55

it really got bad in my teenage

23:57

years set in, my dad was

23:59

still. relatively my hero at eight. And

24:02

he hadn't really picked, started like

24:04

really getting nasty until I hit

24:06

puberty. Like so many, like it's

24:08

very common. And

24:11

that just put a bad taste in my

24:13

mouth. Like, whoa, this is major. I understand.

24:15

What would your mother say? Like I'm yeah,

24:18

I've got your dad rafting my ground, my

24:20

little finger. I'm in charge. Bingo. Okay. Bingo.

24:23

Yeah. And then another,

24:25

and then another one was, and

24:27

I would say that stuff, like in, in what

24:30

context would that come

24:32

up? In the context, in the context of like,

24:35

great question too, in what context,

24:39

not like an event had

24:42

happened that had triggered her to pull

24:45

me aside and say this. She,

24:47

I was the most empathetic, I think

24:50

of all my siblings and I'm, I'm the

24:52

scapegoat in the family, you know, there's, there's

24:55

a cliche for you. And

24:57

maybe she had picked up on this,

24:59

but for whatever reason, she

25:02

just wanted

25:04

to express power,

25:08

her power over men to me, because I

25:10

was the first born son at like a

25:13

vulnerable time where she could still have power

25:15

over me when I'm eight and still, okay.

25:17

Now I understand that saying I control a

25:19

man, it communicates you that she

25:21

has power over men, but in what

25:23

context, again, if you can remember, I know it's

25:26

pretty early, early days for you, but

25:28

in what context would she even bring this

25:30

up as a topic? Out

25:34

of the blue, I can't recall

25:36

specifically, but almost just like, uh,

25:41

spontaneous spontaneously context. And maybe

25:43

something had happened in the

25:45

background between her and my

25:47

dad. But, um, other

25:51

than that, I can't remember

25:54

what specifically triggered her to, to,

25:56

to let me know this. Okay.

25:59

But. She is giving you

26:01

a ticket out, right? In

26:05

relationship with her. She's giving you an

26:07

exit visa. Because

26:09

she's saying that she is entirely responsible

26:11

for the quality of the household and

26:14

the presence of your father. Oh

26:18

yeah, yeah, I have. Yeah, I'm

26:20

so glad I de-food. I'm

26:24

sorry about all of this, of course, right? Okay,

26:27

so you did a lot of screen time, or a

26:29

lot of TV time. And

26:33

your mother, did she stay at home your

26:36

whole childhood? Did she ever end up

26:38

working outside the home? Once all

26:40

of us graduated high school, she

26:42

went into dog grooming.

26:45

And as

26:48

we all know, the death

26:50

grip that dogs have on Western

26:53

women nowadays, as far as an escape,

26:56

it was like two peas in a

26:58

pod. She just absolutely loved focusing

27:02

on stupid dogs instead

27:04

of trying to help get even

27:06

one of her kids really towards

27:09

marriage and grandchildren. Oh God, push.

27:11

So shame on her. What

27:13

on earth did she offer in that department, right? Yeah,

27:15

shame on her. And my sister's

27:17

life hangs in the balance because she's already been

27:19

making attempts on her life that have put her

27:21

in the emergency room like four or five times.

27:23

That's who's liable, you mean? Oh

27:26

yeah, she's been cutting up her arms to

27:28

the point where it's like bathtub's

27:30

full of blood kind of thing.

27:33

Now, do you mean this now or back in the day? Within

27:37

the last five years. But

27:40

my sister went on antidepressants at age 14, and my

27:43

mom has been on

27:45

the highest legal dosage of

27:47

Zoloft for the better

27:49

part of two decades. So she's pushing

27:51

new ground as far as

27:54

like the frontier with Zoloft. If there's

27:56

any candidate or demand to get those

27:58

milligrams every year. Okay.

30:01

All right. And

30:05

what was your school life

30:07

like, a social life like? I

30:11

was pretty popular and

30:14

I had, uh, like

30:17

kind of a storybook, um,

30:20

middle school and high school period, cause I

30:23

was a skateboarder and

30:25

I, because I

30:27

was in one city for

30:29

middle school and made friends there. And then

30:31

I went back to just a closer city

30:33

because of zoning rules for high

30:35

school. I made even more friends

30:38

over there. I had a, uh,

30:40

like a, uh, a selection in the

30:43

double digits of people, of buddies that

30:45

I could like, so did you

30:47

get your social skills from, do you think? I

30:50

mean, I have good looking kid, I assume fairly athletic.

30:53

Uh, but what was it that gave you

30:55

that sort of poison or, or do you

30:57

remember, was that just come naturally or did

30:59

you have a model for that? Naturally. Naturally.

31:01

Yeah, naturally. Yeah. I had like picked up

31:03

on philosophical, like universal

31:06

principles and stuff from like a really

31:08

young age and had tried

31:10

to like pick apart when the fan, when

31:12

our family would watch like kind of a

31:14

movie with deep meaning,

31:16

I would be the one

31:19

that would, that even in single digit

31:21

age would be like, wow, like, um,

31:24

something about this in this movie, you

31:26

know, yada, yada, yada. And I, and

31:29

I would get the weird looks from everybody in the

31:31

family. And as

31:34

far as like moral instincts, I was

31:36

raised culturally Christian, but there was no

31:38

praying or mention of God and or

31:41

practicing of Christianity other than going to

31:43

church once a year for Christmas.

31:46

Um, but I had gone to

31:48

a Christian youth group from like age. Eight,

31:52

nine to about 11, 12. And

31:55

one of the activities

32:00

we did in this group with

32:03

about 15 kids ranging

32:05

in age from, you know, eight, nine, all

32:07

the way up to like 13, 14

32:10

was the teacher would

32:12

read a, a

32:18

confrontation or something, a conflict

32:21

that would happen in society. And

32:25

the lesson of it was like, who,

32:29

who can understand who's in the right and

32:31

who's in the wrong and

32:34

try to find some moral foundation

32:37

from this test. And

32:40

I was, uh, unanimously always

32:42

the one to answer it. And

32:45

this went on for like over, like over

32:47

nine months to the point where

32:50

the, the teacher would ask the question,

32:52

the whole class would go quiet, look

32:55

at me. And then I would

32:57

answer it and then nobody, they would all just be

32:59

in total agreement. And I saw like them

33:02

try to answer it a couple of times. Like

33:05

I didn't hog the stage. I,

33:08

it's not like I needed attention, but I just,

33:10

I knew the answer immediately when they asked the

33:12

question and they all kind of picked up on that. And

33:18

it got to the point where my nickname,

33:20

they thought I was so good at like

33:23

understanding moral, uh, or

33:25

at least, you know, for, for that level

33:27

of degree of technical moral analysis. They gave

33:29

me a nickname. They called me NASA. Yeah.

33:39

I mean, it's a, it was

33:41

rudimentary stuff, but, um, so

33:44

I had a, I had,

33:49

I had a great social life and,

33:51

and, um, girls were really

33:53

easy to come by and

33:56

I got into a really

33:58

meaningful, really meaningful relationship. for

34:00

like over two

34:03

and a half years with this girl that

34:07

I had laid eyes on her at 13 and

34:10

we were dating by 14 to almost 17, like

34:12

16 plus. So,

34:16

sorry, what are you telling me about this meaningful

34:18

stuff? Help me sort of understand that because I

34:20

would have trouble following that. It

34:24

was meaningful to me because

34:27

even though, you know,

34:30

if love is our involuntary response to

34:32

the virtue we see in others, it

34:37

would, and there was not

34:40

a tremendous amount of virtue that I could see

34:42

in her. I was really

34:46

compelled in that hormonal

34:48

state of being a young teenager by

34:50

her looks and the fact

34:52

that she liked me and wanted to talk to me

34:54

and spend time with me. And

34:58

based on the family that I

35:00

had going on, my family of origin,

35:04

I had put like way too

35:06

much hopes and dreams on this

35:09

girl of being kind

35:13

of like a lifeboat. No, no,

35:16

I mean, I'm just trying to figure out, I

35:18

mean, you're severely traumatized. You have two brutal, vicious

35:21

parents. You're still trapped for another half decade

35:23

at the home. And I'm just trying to

35:25

figure out what kind of meaningful and

35:29

positive relationship you could get involved in. Yeah.

35:35

Anybody that acknowledges your existence

35:37

and... No, no, no, I get this

35:39

need and looks and all of that. It's just, I thought you

35:42

were saying sort of a deeper meaningful or, you know,

35:44

there was positive aspects to the relationship. And I'm not

35:46

saying there weren't any, but it would be pretty tough

35:48

to square with how messed up

35:50

your home life was. Yeah. The

35:53

one of the things that I

35:55

believe I was very much pair

35:57

bonding with her at the time is we were both...

36:00

staunch virgins and nothing

36:02

but kissing for over two years. So

36:04

the level of just I'm with you

36:10

because I'm here for you, not the

36:14

sex or the pleasure that gratitude...

36:17

Okay, but did she know that your home life

36:19

was messed up? Yeah.

36:25

Okay. And what were her

36:27

thoughts about that? Not

36:30

much because she had similar stuff going

36:32

on with her parents. I would assume

36:34

so, right? Okay. Yeah. So

36:36

it was not a sort of deep and connected

36:39

relationship in that you could really

36:41

sort of talk honestly about your own experiences and so

36:43

on, but you were both kind of avoidant about the

36:45

home stuff? Yeah. And

36:48

in certain situations I could,

36:50

I had decent verbal IQ

36:53

and cognition, like

36:57

interpersonally, like with your buddies and

36:59

stuff like that. But anything

37:01

that's like where

37:07

the stakes get raised, right? Like with your

37:09

parents being able to communicate with them or

37:12

with romantic

37:14

interests. I

37:16

was so damaged

37:21

from being neglected

37:23

by my parents that when I

37:26

would get into anything that would

37:28

trigger real important emotion or

37:30

substance for my future,

37:38

it's like I didn't have the language

37:41

to be able to express myself. And

37:43

I was aware of it in real

37:45

time too. I saw

37:48

the corruption going on around me

37:50

and I felt powerless during

37:53

the moment, but yet I was aware of it

37:55

at the same time, which was like, how

37:58

come I'm smart enough? I'm

38:01

a great conversationalist and I'm decent

38:03

with vocabulary. How come when I

38:05

get into these situations, it's like

38:08

it was just gridlock. I

38:10

can't express myself, I

38:13

can't, and I don't

38:15

know if that makes sense. No,

38:19

I think I understand. I think I understand.

38:21

And so why did that relationship peter at

38:24

or end? I

38:27

had used her as in

38:30

my opinion, being hard on myself, I had

38:32

used her as an emotional crutch too

38:35

much in place of

38:38

like a

38:40

nurturing parent or not

38:44

really taking enough leadership

38:46

over the situation and just being kind

38:48

of like in

38:50

a weak and not

38:54

masculine enough position

38:58

in my life at 16. Okay.

39:00

So I need a favor from you, if

39:03

you don't mind. You're

39:05

giving me some... I know, I'm guilty. No, no, no,

39:07

it's fine. You're giving me some excellent

39:10

narrative. Right. Now,

39:15

so everything that you're telling me, none of this

39:18

is a criticism, of course, right? I'm just pointing

39:20

it at. So you're

39:22

giving me sort of very obviously

39:24

brilliant and refined information

39:27

about the narrative of your life. Right.

39:31

So while I used her as an

39:33

emotional sop, I was not

39:35

masculine. Like this is all... I

39:38

didn't take her out on dates enough. No,

39:41

no, but that's... And

39:46

the reason I'm pushing back on a narrative and we'll

39:48

go on with your childhood in a sec, but just

39:51

the reason why I have to push back on narrative

39:53

is two reasons. One, the

39:56

narrative you have is not working. Right

40:01

so you're telling me you're not telling me what happened in

40:03

your life you're telling me the

40:05

themes and and messages

40:07

and morals and and explanations and

40:09

but not what actually happened right.

40:12

Yeah i'm dissociating or not well

40:15

so there's two things about that and

40:17

there's nothing wrong with what you're doing it's just a

40:19

minor tweak that i would prefer and you

40:21

know it may not even be right it could just be

40:23

a please indulge the big chatty forehead kind of thing but.

40:27

Number one is that the one

40:29

thing i know about your narrative is it's not gotten you where

40:31

you want to get to. If

40:34

you tell me your narrative you

40:36

tell me everything that isn't working.

40:40

And no facts. So

40:45

so so that sound of the number one problem

40:47

and number two is that you're right is totally

40:49

dissociated because when you don't tell me the events.

40:52

But you tell me the narrative the narrative keeps

40:54

you at an emotional distance from your event because

40:56

i have not had for

40:59

me i have an it's tough because we're just

41:01

listening right and talking but i

41:03

haven't had. Experience

41:06

a shred of emotional connection from you. I'm

41:09

concerned that the narratives are a buffer by which you

41:12

keep the feelings at bay. And

41:14

you can explain your life to everyone but

41:16

who feels they can genuinely connect with you. Right.

41:20

Bullseye. Bullseye.

41:25

Why did your relationship with the girl and what happened.

41:31

I was. Not

41:35

connecting with her nope nope

41:37

nope that's what happened you're right

41:39

you're right. Well.

41:50

No of course i ask why and

41:52

that's an invitation she will show you

41:54

can say something about narrative. No

41:56

i didn't take her out on dates she got mad

41:58

at me i said this she. said that, like that

42:00

there's going to be, there can be a sort of

42:03

causality, but I still need to know kind of

42:05

what happened. Yeah. The emotions

42:07

are in the event. This is awesome. The dissociation

42:09

often is in the narrative, right? Right.

42:12

Well, she, she ran into

42:14

a guy that she was

42:16

more attracted to than me

42:18

and, and

42:21

immediately left me for him. And

42:24

wow. Okay. I'm sorry about that. Yeah.

42:27

And then

42:34

she went on like a late

42:36

teenage girl sex rampage with like a

42:38

bunch of guys. And

42:41

she was 16. Yeah.

42:45

So she would only kiss you

42:48

or you guys would only kiss each other

42:50

for two years. And then she went and

42:52

slept with everything. Yep.

42:55

And I, I was kind of, I, yes.

42:57

And this is, I've been aware. Wait, wait, wait.

43:00

Your first love, right? So you're rushing now you're rushing

43:02

into more explanations, right? Was

43:06

this your first love? This was your first love. Oh,

43:08

big time. Yeah. Big time. So

43:12

she then, her

43:14

mom, her mom loved me too. She gave her

43:16

daughter a hard time when she broke up with

43:18

me. Like, what are you doing? Well,

43:23

that shows that her mom has a certain

43:25

problem with judgment too, not because you're a terrible guy, of course. Right.

43:29

But were you a fit

43:34

and moral and mentally healthy partner in

43:36

your early to mid teens? Well, no. So

43:42

her mother looked at your surface

43:44

charm, which is considerable, right? And I'm not saying there's

43:46

no value in that. I mean, there's nothing wrong with

43:48

the little charisma. And charm. And I think that stuff's

43:50

all fine. But

43:53

her mother would have looked at you and not seen

43:55

the pain. Right.

44:00

I mean, you grew up with death threats showering

44:02

down on you from Zeus. And

44:07

a fear of being disassembled like some

44:10

Greek God villain, right? I mean,

44:12

and a mother who's, you

44:15

know, mentally crashing and drugged

44:17

and right. I mean, you

44:19

grew up in a monster home.

44:22

My dad was so intimidating when

44:24

I've seen glimpses of

44:27

horror movie character, it was like

44:29

Freddy Krueger or Jason

44:31

Voorhees from Friday the 13th. My

44:34

dad would cut through those fuckers like a

44:36

hot night. He would, I, they are not

44:38

scary at all compared to what he was

44:41

capable of. It's always

44:43

like a, but capable of, but

44:46

he didn't hit as far as. Yeah.

44:48

As far as like, uh,

44:51

psychological terror. But

44:53

you do you still view your father as a

44:55

big man? No. Okay. Yeah.

44:59

Because I mean, honestly, death, threatening

45:01

five year olds is not my definition of strength at all. That's like, no,

45:03

no. Just

45:06

psychological tear. Yeah. No,

45:09

from, from, from a kid's standpoint, he's bigger than the sky,

45:11

right? Yeah. But

45:15

if you look at it, if you, if

45:17

you look at a 250 pound guy issuing

45:20

regular death threats to a five year old,

45:23

you see a very pitiful weak,

45:28

paralyzed, out of

45:31

control toddler. Miscontemptable

45:38

behavior to the nth degree to

45:40

bully children when you're 10 times

45:43

their size is, I mean, it's beyond

45:46

weak. I

45:48

bet you he was all kinds of nice. If a cop

45:50

pulled over, pulled him over. Oh,

45:52

yeah. And the grace that he

45:54

gave his employees that I had bare witness to. And

46:00

the level of control that he had

46:02

over his charm and tenderness with them.

46:04

Yeah. So he was nice to people.

46:06

He could take advantage of and then

46:08

his kids, he was a real, uh,

46:10

you know, so being a tough guy with a five year old

46:12

is not being a tough guy, right? Obviously. I mean, we know

46:15

that, right? I'm just saying that this is really pitiful. Oh

46:18

yeah. I don't mean tough. I just meant psychological

46:20

terror. That's it. No,

46:22

no, I get it. But being sort of,

46:24

uh, very aggressive and, and, and bullying and

46:26

so on only with the five year olds

46:28

and never with anyone else is really the

46:31

definition of, of pathetic. Cucked

46:33

weakness. Oh, he would,

46:35

oh, he would, he would go against other

46:37

men, not cops, but like other men. Like

46:40

he, he, uh,

46:43

he was not afraid of any, like

46:45

essentially any comfort.

46:47

He was the most confrontational guy I've ever met

46:49

in my life, but not with anyone who had

46:51

power over him. Fair. I

46:54

mean, if I'm wrong, I mean, I'd want

46:56

to make sure I understand this correctly. Yeah.

46:59

I mean, he wouldn't, he wouldn't roll over on

47:02

cops either. Like he would give push back

47:04

to cops sometimes too. Like he was cunning

47:07

in that respect, but he'd also like, he's

47:10

just, he just, he lived

47:12

for confrontation. He loves confrontation. It

47:14

was like, it

47:21

was like, oh yeah. Yeah. Okay.

47:26

Now that's a fair correction. I appreciate that. All right. Not

47:28

fair. I mean, I want to be, want to be as

47:30

accurate as possible. Okay. So

47:32

what happened leading up to your

47:35

girlfriend at 16 running

47:37

off with another guy? What

47:40

happened? Can you be more specific? Sure.

47:42

So you've been dating, uh, the relationship

47:44

was, was it progressing or was it

47:47

mostly just stagnant or, or circular? Circular.

47:51

And then she had asked to take a break. And

47:54

then I was like, I didn't have healthy levels

47:57

of assertion. And I was just like, oh yeah.

47:59

You know. So, do

48:01

you know when she asked to take a break, was

48:03

that because she was interested in another guy? I

48:06

didn't know that at the time, but obviously, yeah,

48:08

I found out later. Okay, so

48:10

what was

48:14

missing for her in

48:16

your relationship? I

48:19

don't know. I didn't abuse her enough because

48:21

the guy she went with, I had gotten

48:23

back in touch with her like a year

48:25

later and the story she told me about

48:27

this guy threatening

48:29

her with like death

48:32

threats and like, oh

48:34

God, I was just like, what are you doing?

48:36

You know, what? She graduated from the son of

48:38

the bully to the bully, right? Yeah.

48:42

Okay. Okay. I

48:44

like adored this girl. I was like, total

48:46

simp. Like, oh, I want to marry you

48:48

and have babies. And I was totally- Hang

48:50

on, hang on, hang on. Why is that

48:52

a simp? You

48:55

know, just- I mean, no, no, no, clearly

48:58

expressing desire is not

49:01

being a simp, right? I mean, being a

49:03

simp is- Yeah, she hadn't really-

49:05

It's giving resources, time, and attention to a

49:08

woman where there's no future. That's

49:10

a simp. Yeah. She hadn't

49:12

really earned that level of like commitment

49:14

from me to be fair. Why?

49:17

What was missing for her in her? Um,

49:23

just- I

49:26

was always the one chasing her from

49:29

the entire time. Well,

49:33

you weren't just chasing her because you got her, right?

49:37

Yeah, but even then she made it,

49:39

she, you know, just there, it wasn't-

49:41

it wasn't close enough to

49:43

equal levels of attraction. She had just moved from

49:45

out of state to the state that I lived

49:48

in at the time that we

49:50

had met. And I was kind

49:52

of aware, like she had no friends and that

49:55

like, oh man, is like, am I in this

49:57

relationship with her? Because she like really likes me

49:59

or- just because it's like the only option she

50:01

has. I mean, she was a beautiful girl, but

50:05

there was just always this question in

50:07

my head, like, do you really want

50:09

to be with me, or is this

50:11

just temporary? So

50:16

she was, how much more

50:18

attractive than you? Like 20 percent, 10

50:20

percent? Oh, no. No, no. I'm

50:23

really good looking too. We were even.

50:28

Okay, maybe you were a status symbol?

50:33

Yeah. Okay.

50:42

Okay. So

50:44

you had this semiplatonic relationship, and then

50:46

she, did she

50:48

get attracted to another guy, or

50:51

another guy was just more forceful

50:53

with her? I don't mean violent

50:55

necessarily, but just like? I

50:58

don't know. That's a great question. I don't know. But

51:00

he was definitely like a forceful character

51:03

from what she told me, so. Okay.

51:10

Got it. Got it. All right. So

51:13

then she jumpship from you. So she says, I'm

51:15

going to take a break, and

51:17

you said, okay. And then how long was it between

51:19

then and her being with the other guy? Instantly.

51:26

Like next day? Yeah.

51:29

She might have been doing it even before she told

51:32

me, you know, been talking to him. You know how

51:34

girls are. They got the next lifeboat ready ahead of

51:36

time. Men do it too sometimes. Okay.

51:39

True. Okay. So,

51:41

and then, and then this was

51:43

the guy who she

51:46

gave her virginity to, and then it just got ugly.

51:48

Is that right? Yes, sir.

51:50

Yeah. Okay. Got it. And

51:55

what was your emotional state over the course of

51:57

this process? So

52:00

man i

52:04

was overwhelmed like young

52:06

man you like young man

52:08

that go through like that kind of.

52:15

Situation really don't have the

52:18

brain development yet to process it.

52:21

Can you i could easily see how so

52:23

many of them just spiral out of

52:25

control into madness cuz they don't they're

52:27

not getting any coping mechanisms or

52:30

guidance from their parents. And

52:33

instead of like self destruction

52:35

through like substance abuse or i

52:37

don't know i was

52:39

so charged up with like anger

52:41

and. And

52:44

helplessness that i went into like

52:47

combat sports and

52:51

wait training like a demon just

52:53

to have a positive outlet just to

52:56

tire myself out so much to take

52:58

the pain away and i had done

53:00

that from sixteen

53:03

seventeen until i was twenty one.

53:08

And just just was

53:10

i was just it just crushed me

53:13

until i was like man i was like still

53:16

still bent out of shape about it i was like

53:18

twenty one twenty two. Right

53:21

okay. And

53:24

of course you're remaining in the

53:26

school and so you can see

53:28

like you said how long did

53:30

it last this relationship with the guy she left you for.

53:35

Nine months. And then

53:37

she went to a stream

53:39

of other men right. Yeah

53:41

okay. And

53:44

then i was propositioning

53:46

her cuz she was reaching out to

53:48

me to maybe get back together with

53:50

her and. I'm

53:55

hanging out with her one night. At

53:58

this park. And

54:02

it's a beautiful night out. It's low

54:04

humidity. The wind is blowing

54:08

and she's on this swing and I'm

54:10

sitting on this bench and we're talking and

54:14

I'm like 18 years old, I'm still a

54:16

virgin. And out of nowhere, she just asks

54:18

me, do you wanna have sex? And

54:21

I said, and this is like the woman that I wanted

54:24

to, Mary and be

54:26

the mother of my kids. And I'm just

54:28

trying to figure out where her head's at.

54:30

And I go, without hesitation, no, because

54:32

you don't love me. So what would

54:34

be the point? And I

54:36

had been obsessed and

54:39

infatuated with her for, I

54:41

don't know, like the last four or five years. And it

54:43

was everything, you know, a

54:45

horny 18 year old young guy

54:47

wants is like, nobody's

54:50

around in this park. I

54:54

could take it right now, but all I wanted- Oh, she wants

54:56

sex with you in the park? Yeah.

55:03

And I'm like, you

55:05

know, just trying to get back to some level

55:08

of pair bonding and connection with her. And when

55:10

she asked me that, I was just like, oh

55:12

man, this was bad. And

55:16

it's also, it's a bit of a revenge

55:18

thing. It's a bit of a curse on her because

55:21

I think, again, if I miss my guess,

55:23

I miss my guess. But I think that when you

55:25

say, you don't love me, so

55:27

I don't want to have sex with you, she's saying

55:29

that you're giving her the curse that all the men,

55:32

all the boys she'd had sex with, we're just using

55:34

her. That's

55:36

fair. I was just

55:38

thinking about just being selfless and caring

55:40

about her. And

55:44

like wanting to get back to that feeling

55:47

of connection was on my mind, but subconsciously,

55:49

yeah, that all checks out. Yeah, yeah, okay.

55:52

I didn't feel any pettiness ever like

55:55

towards her. I just wanted to help

55:58

her. And I've really tried. to avoid

56:00

taking the petty road most of

56:02

my life because it just doesn't, I don't want

56:04

that. Sorry,

56:08

you tried to avoid taking the petty road because you

56:10

don't want it. Yeah,

56:13

like just revenge

56:16

or anything, like you had mentioned,

56:18

like I said that because

56:20

I wasn't thinking about all the other

56:22

guys. I was just thinking about

56:24

me and her and that

56:26

we hadn't gotten back to the level

56:29

of connection. Sorry,

56:32

I'm sure I'm missing something and

56:34

apologize if I'm astray. I'm

56:36

not sure what you mean by you say I've

56:39

tried to avoid taking

56:42

the petty route. I

56:45

mean, the feelings arise within us,

56:47

right? And

56:50

we wrangle and we manage and we surf

56:52

and we negotiate with the feelings that arise

56:55

within us. And

56:58

pattiness is a very

57:00

helpful emotion or

57:02

it's a very helpful experience. So

57:06

pattiness is saying that

57:08

small things, I mean, I think the purpose, like

57:10

why do we have pattiness, right? I

57:13

mean, everything that is evolved in us has some

57:15

value, right, otherwise it wouldn't be here, right? So

57:18

what's the value of pattiness?

57:28

To distinguish what is truly petty

57:31

and disqualify it? I

57:34

mean, but that still doesn't say

57:36

why petty, oh, I see pattiness is there

57:38

to reject pattiness. Okay,

57:40

so let's go back to your parents when they met, right?

57:44

So your father would

57:46

have shown signs of anger early

57:48

on, right, rage.

57:51

Right, totally. Right, so there's

57:54

a sort of meme among women,

57:56

like how do you test for a guy's temper? Well,

57:59

the guy says, I want to go

58:01

eat at this restaurant and you say, well, I'd

58:03

actually rather eat at some other restaurant. Like

58:05

you name some other restaurant, right? And

58:08

you see how he handles that

58:13

difference of opinion, which

58:15

is of course, it's a reasonable test, right?

58:22

So, sure. So if the guy gets kind of

58:24

cold and fine, you can go to some other

58:26

restaurant, right? And the guy gets kind of, he

58:28

was not going to start screaming at you right

58:30

away, right? He gets kind of cold and, and

58:33

or whatever. He's like, yeah, fine. I guess we can go to

58:35

this other restaurant, you know, and he's just kind of punishes you

58:37

with drawn or whatever, right? Now

58:39

for a woman, if you were to say, uh, well,

58:42

I'm breaking up with you, right? Because

58:46

you don't have room in your heart

58:49

for somebody else's different opinions. Now,

58:51

of course, the guy would

58:53

say, you're breaking up with me because, wait,

58:57

I said, we could go to your other restaurant,

58:59

blah, blah, blah. Like he would try to make

59:01

her feel that her reasons for breaking up with

59:03

him were petty. And

59:07

you could say, okay, so the guy was kind of cold

59:09

when you wanted a different restaurant and maybe you'd be going

59:11

out for a week or two or whatever, right? And

59:15

he would say, well, that's really, really petty. And part of

59:17

her would say, oh gosh, you know, maybe it is really

59:19

petty for me to break up with a guy just because

59:22

he's kind of cold when I want to go to a different

59:24

restaurant. It's petty, right? But

59:26

oh my God, would it have saved decades

59:29

of misery, right? Right.

59:32

So pettiness is like this early warning sign

59:35

that something might be awry. And

59:40

the reason I'm scanning for this kind of stuff is

59:43

your issue is pair bonding, right? But if

59:45

you disable your pettiness, you disable

59:47

your early warning system and

59:51

then you're going across a

59:53

minefield with no metal detector.

59:55

So you don't want to go across the minefield with no

59:57

metal detector, right? So

1:00:00

I'm, I'm trying to sort of figure out this

1:00:02

slicing and dicing that you have. Well,

1:00:04

the pettiness is bad, right? Well, why?

1:00:08

I mean, we have it sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes

1:00:10

you, you absolutely have to channel

1:00:13

into that and, and, and call a spade

1:00:15

a spade and avoid the, you know, the

1:00:17

suffering if you didn't have a metal detector

1:00:19

in a minefield at the

1:00:21

time, the signs are subtle and

1:00:23

that, and the people who make decisions based

1:00:26

on early signs are often called petty. Okay.

1:00:29

Right. So

1:00:34

the early signs are

1:00:36

important. Right.

1:00:40

And that's why I was sort of asking what happened

1:00:42

with your relationship with your, your

1:00:44

girlfriend. Right. So amid to you,

1:00:46

since you've been a long-term listener, I can cut to the

1:00:48

chase at this part, the primary

1:00:50

reason that you wouldn't be pair bonded

1:00:53

yet is a lack of self-trust. Now,

1:00:56

if there's a lack of self-trust, the

1:01:01

question is, is, is why? And

1:01:03

if you say, well, I'm

1:01:05

slicing and dicing my emotional life into the, well,

1:01:07

this is good and this is bad, right? I

1:01:11

mean, the word petty is an abusive

1:01:13

word for subtle. Right.

1:01:21

Right. So for instance, in

1:01:23

a great movie, Oh,

1:01:25

it's a book obviously. And then a movie room with a

1:01:27

view, right? This woman is going to get married to the

1:01:30

wrong guy and he's kind of selfish and, and

1:01:32

so on, right. And she

1:01:35

says, come

1:01:37

and play tennis. We

1:01:39

need a fourth. And he

1:01:44

says, no. Right.

1:01:48

And in a very smarmy way, right. And

1:01:50

then she breaks off her engagement and

1:01:52

the line is right. There's a scene opens

1:01:54

the line is because I wouldn't play tennis

1:01:57

with Freddie. This

1:01:59

incredulous. that

1:02:02

she would break off her engagement with him because

1:02:05

he would not join their tennis game. So

1:02:11

this incredulity, which is to say, your

1:02:14

perception of subtlety is

1:02:19

petty. Well,

1:02:21

no, she's right. It would have

1:02:23

been a bad marriage. Because

1:02:25

I wouldn't play tennis with Freddie. Why would you

1:02:27

break up? Do you know what I mean? Because

1:02:29

she's less like, no, this is the smarmy superior way

1:02:31

in which you said, you know, well, you've

1:02:33

often remarked that some people are only good for sitting

1:02:36

in libraries. Well, I thoroughly confess to being one of

1:02:38

those people, you know, something like that. And

1:02:42

that smarmy superior way in which he

1:02:44

just won't do something that she wants

1:02:46

to do that would be helpful for her.

1:02:49

You say, well, because I wouldn't play tennis with

1:02:52

Freddie. And it's a wild moment because her,

1:02:54

I mean, obviously she's had some help from the

1:02:56

guy who really wants her, but it's

1:03:00

interesting. And when we make a big

1:03:02

life decision, we're often asked to give

1:03:04

big evidence, right? But

1:03:11

often, like if we

1:03:13

say, I'm not going to date this person, or,

1:03:15

you know, maybe I'm not going to continue this

1:03:18

relationship, people say, well,

1:03:20

why? Right? And

1:03:22

we do, we have to give a big reason. I

1:03:25

think we can look for smaller reasons, because if

1:03:27

we can't look for those smaller reasons that are

1:03:29

indicative of larger patterns, then

1:03:32

we kind of have to wait for disaster. Like,

1:03:34

you know, the typical story of men who don't want

1:03:37

to go to doctors, right? You know,

1:03:39

they've had a stomach pain for like three months,

1:03:41

right? And then, you know, then they finally, whatever,

1:03:43

go to the doctor or whatever, and the doctor's

1:03:45

like, man, you got a tumor. Like, why didn't

1:03:47

you come? Do you know what I mean? It's

1:03:49

like, well, because the first week, you know, it's

1:03:51

just a small pain. I

1:03:55

didn't want to be petty. It's like, no, it's just it's

1:03:57

a subtle indication that something is. is

1:04:00

wrong. And that

1:04:03

subtlety is important to navigate in life. You

1:04:06

know, like radar, radar is there

1:04:08

before you could see the planes, right? I,

1:04:10

and, and I, I think this, I grew,

1:04:13

I use all this in my life. Um,

1:04:16

what I meant by petty, when you, like

1:04:18

you said, did you say that to get

1:04:20

revenge on her, that the other men didn't

1:04:23

love her? Maybe instead

1:04:25

of petty, I, I'm not using the accurate

1:04:29

word, but it's like, I

1:04:31

didn't want to be

1:04:33

vindictive or, or, hang

1:04:36

on, hang on. Let's go with vindictive. Why

1:04:39

wouldn't you want to be vindictive? I'm,

1:04:42

I'm happy to hear the case. Um,

1:04:50

because what,

1:04:52

what do we really need here? If, if there,

1:04:54

if we're gonna, if there's any possibility of getting

1:04:57

this back to like a

1:04:59

healthy functional relationship,

1:05:02

we need understanding and

1:05:05

yes, there is. Okay, but hang on,

1:05:07

hang on, hang on. Yeah, I see where you're going.

1:05:09

So she'd broken up with you for, uh, for what, two years?

1:05:14

A year. She'd broken up with you for a year. She was

1:05:17

what, seven months with this guy. And then she said there were

1:05:19

a bunch of other guys. Or was that later? That

1:05:23

was a little bit later, but maybe

1:05:26

a little bit during the between two.

1:05:28

Yeah. See where you're going. You're good.

1:05:30

Okay. So, so she

1:05:32

lied to you. She didn't say I'm unhappy in

1:05:35

our relationship. Let's see what we can do to

1:05:37

fix it. She just lied

1:05:39

to you saying I want to break. She didn't

1:05:41

tell you I'm interested in another guy. She gets

1:05:43

together with another guy right away, not even

1:05:46

giving you the grace period, which means she's,

1:05:48

you know, very selfish and callous towards your

1:05:50

feelings. Right. Right. Which

1:05:53

will make you angry. Nobody likes

1:05:55

to be lied to and

1:05:57

have people and, and also by the by. It's

1:06:01

pretty fucking callous towards your entire reputation.

1:06:04

Yeah. Right? Because, oh yeah, you,

1:06:06

you guys like two years in like early

1:06:09

high school. I mean, that's like 20 years

1:06:11

of marriage. Yes,

1:06:14

sir. Right. So, so she,

1:06:17

she dumps you for the dirt bag

1:06:19

the next day. I mean, what

1:06:21

does that do to your reputation? It's

1:06:23

especially like 20 years of marriage when

1:06:25

you're not even fooling around with the

1:06:27

girl at all. And you're just like

1:06:30

having a pure, you know, untainted

1:06:36

relationship. Well, I

1:06:38

don't know about pure and untainted and

1:06:41

all of that. That's very holy roller.

1:06:43

As far as I can, as far as sex,

1:06:45

as far as sexuality. Well, I know, but that's

1:06:47

say that sexuality is tainting and right, whatever. Right.

1:06:50

So that's, that's a whole other thing, which we

1:06:52

can get to this, this like monk-like purity has

1:06:54

within it a disdain for sexuality. Sexuality. And I'm

1:06:56

not saying you should have been sexually active with

1:06:58

her, but the fact that you

1:07:00

would hold it as a, an uncomplicated virtue,

1:07:04

which is not, not

1:07:06

necessarily the case in my opinion.

1:07:08

But so, so this woman broke

1:07:11

your heart, this girl, sorry, she

1:07:13

broke your heart, went for a

1:07:15

dirt bag and destroyed your reputation

1:07:17

and you got so hurt

1:07:20

by this. It was like half a decade before

1:07:22

you recovered. Right. Yeah. So

1:07:25

what would be wrong with

1:07:28

feelings of vengeance in

1:07:30

that situation? I'm not saying that you would act on

1:07:32

it necessarily, but what's wrong with like,

1:07:34

I don't want to be vengeful. It's like, well, you

1:07:36

are, are you on? You know, I mean, like,

1:07:38

wouldn't you accept what you feeling? Yeah.

1:07:43

I feel vengeful. Right.

1:07:46

But I, uh, I wanted to,

1:07:48

I wanted to, uh, focus on

1:07:50

a solution more than anything or

1:07:53

you're saying that the word, that that

1:07:55

vengefulness can't be part of the solution. Right.

1:07:59

Yeah. True. And again,

1:08:01

I'm not talking about acting in on it

1:08:03

in any violent, obviously, or

1:08:05

aggressive way, but having the feelings that

1:08:07

you so you're having, you're judging your

1:08:09

feelings like, well this feeling I'm going

1:08:12

to give a positive label, but

1:08:14

this feeling I'm going to give it a negative label

1:08:16

and that's unacceptable and I can't feel that and that's

1:08:18

not productive. And it's like, who

1:08:20

gave you God's right to slice and dice

1:08:22

your entire atomic heart? You're

1:08:26

good, man. And

1:08:29

I hear this with all the call-ins too, like I'm

1:08:31

a really good listener and you

1:08:33

think I'd, you think, yeah. So

1:08:36

what's wrong? Well, of course, okay,

1:08:38

we all know what's wrong with vengeance, right? Vengeance

1:08:41

is being like your dad, right? And being

1:08:43

like your dad is bad and therefore you

1:08:45

can't have these feelings of aggression, right?

1:08:49

Oh, I do sometimes I allow

1:08:51

myself, like, I don't

1:08:53

hold back if somebody's got it coming at

1:08:57

all. So

1:09:00

vengeance isn't bad intrinsically? No.

1:09:04

Okay. It could

1:09:07

be righteous. The person's got it

1:09:09

coming to them totally. Okay, so the woman who, sorry,

1:09:11

the girl, she was 16, right? So

1:09:13

the girl who broke your heart and slept with

1:09:16

other guys and dumped you and turned around the next

1:09:18

day with the dirtbag and so on. If

1:09:21

you were to say to her something that would

1:09:23

hurt her, but was true, which

1:09:25

is the guys you're sleeping with

1:09:27

are just using you and they don't love you.

1:09:30

But that's true, right? Very

1:09:32

true. So you're taking a statement

1:09:34

that is true and in fact helpful. She

1:09:39

needs to know that. I mean, is it better if she knows that? Always.

1:09:42

Okay. So let's say

1:09:45

that you said what you said in

1:09:47

order to get across to her the

1:09:50

truth that men were just

1:09:53

using her for sex. And

1:09:56

let's say vengeance was your motivation. Like you

1:09:58

just wanted to hurt her. right? But,

1:10:00

but in your desire to

1:10:02

hurt her, you got across to something to her

1:10:05

that was both true and helpful.

1:10:08

What would I say right now? No, no, no, no. What

1:10:10

you did say. Do

1:10:13

you want to have sex? No. Why

1:10:16

not? Because you

1:10:20

don't love me. What would be the point? Now

1:10:22

that is communicating to her. I mean, slightly indirectly,

1:10:24

but it's fairly clear that

1:10:27

the men, the boys who were sleeping with her are

1:10:29

just using her for sex and don't care about

1:10:31

her. Right,

1:10:34

so, so let's say you get that across to

1:10:36

her and let's say part of the motive is

1:10:38

you, you angry with her and you, you kind

1:10:40

of want to get this across, right? But

1:10:44

it does get an important truth across to her. Let's say

1:10:46

it comes from pettiness and vengeance or whatever labels we want

1:10:49

to put on it. It still does get an important truth

1:10:51

across to her that she's being used for sex and the

1:10:53

men don't love her and she doesn't love them and

1:10:56

she's maybe using them for whatever. I mean,

1:10:59

who knows, right? Probably self, it's probably a

1:11:01

self-humiliation ritual, but but

1:11:03

there's no love involved and all of that, right? And

1:11:06

you're also saying to her, you gave up a

1:11:08

guy who

1:11:11

didn't use you for sex, for guys who did.

1:11:15

Right? There's a lot of sort of complicated, you

1:11:17

know, it's like you zip the file and you send it across

1:11:20

email and you unzip it. It's like 300 books, right? And

1:11:23

so there's a lot that's compressed into what you

1:11:25

said to the girl when

1:11:28

you guys were 17 or so. 18,

1:11:32

sorry, 18. Right. So

1:11:36

you're saying you gave up a guy who won't use

1:11:38

you for sex in order for guys who pump and

1:11:41

dump, right? Right. So

1:11:43

it's also part of look what you missed out

1:11:45

on. In

1:11:48

the hopes that she would see that value and

1:11:50

say, oh my gosh, fall into your arms. I'm

1:11:52

so sorry. I've done terrible things. You always treated

1:11:54

me with respect and I've been trailing after these

1:11:57

guys who just use and abuse me. But

1:12:01

she didn't do that, right? No.

1:12:03

What did she do? She just, she

1:12:05

doubled down. Like, you know, yeah. She

1:12:09

doubled down and she kept, she kept choosing guys

1:12:12

like that. No, but what did she, what did

1:12:14

she say in that moment? Oh,

1:12:16

she didn't say anything. She went silent, kind of

1:12:18

lowered her head and she kept swinging on

1:12:20

the swing and just ignored

1:12:22

me. And then? Didn't

1:12:24

say, didn't have any response. And

1:12:27

then she had driven me there

1:12:29

to the park in her car and

1:12:32

drove me back to my car and I

1:12:34

went home and it

1:12:36

was like one of the last times I ever talked or

1:12:38

saw her. Right. And then she

1:12:40

doubled down. Yeah. Okay.

1:12:43

Which also broke your heart a little

1:12:45

again because you were reaching out ahead, right?

1:12:49

Saying, is there any truth that you're capable of? Yes,

1:12:52

exactly. Okay. So

1:12:55

it wasn't just 16 to 21. It was

1:12:57

the 18 to 21

1:12:59

when you tried again and then she

1:13:02

trashed out more, right? Right.

1:13:05

Right. Okay. Then I assumed

1:13:07

that you felt angry with the guys who were using

1:13:10

her. For sure.

1:13:13

Right. I

1:13:17

was angry at my parents too. Like, why

1:13:19

don't I have the language to be able

1:13:21

to negotiate this better or understand what's going

1:13:23

on or deescalate things

1:13:26

or compromise or

1:13:28

like, why? Like

1:13:31

I have such a good verbal

1:13:34

ability, but when I get into

1:13:36

these tense situations, it's just that

1:13:39

feeling of helplessness in childhood, like,

1:13:41

Oh, I can't assert anything. You know? So

1:13:45

you mean with this, with

1:13:48

this woman, I guess at this

1:13:50

18 that you want it to be more eloquent in

1:13:53

your conversation with her, but your

1:13:55

parents had that not be the case because

1:13:57

of the way they raised you. Yeah.

1:14:00

Okay. And of course,

1:14:02

I mean, I assume, you know, right? You know why you

1:14:04

can't be direct. Because

1:14:09

when abused kids experience

1:14:11

directness from abusive parents, it always

1:14:13

comes with a punishment attached to

1:14:15

it. No,

1:14:17

I mean, that's true, but

1:14:19

that because you're not an abusive

1:14:21

parents, that would be something you would escape, right?

1:14:24

It's because to be direct with

1:14:26

violent parents is to risk death.

1:14:30

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like if you were to say

1:14:32

to your dad, you're terrifying, you're violent, there are

1:14:34

times when I hate you, whatever. Like if you

1:14:36

would just have that kind of directness, assuming that

1:14:39

that's roughly true. I

1:14:41

mean, what would happen if you were direct with your father? Oh,

1:14:44

sure. Everything you just said. I

1:14:46

mean, you know, that there's He never, he

1:14:49

never, he never apologized

1:14:51

one time in my life. I didn't learn

1:14:53

healthy apologies from him. I learned it from

1:14:55

you and some

1:14:57

other philosophers. Right. So

1:15:01

you know that in bars, if there's

1:15:03

a belligerent guy, you

1:15:06

know that the recommendation is don't make

1:15:08

eye contact. You

1:15:12

make eye contact with a belligerent guy. What's

1:15:14

he going to do? What

1:15:17

are you looking at? He's

1:15:19

going to pick on you. Escalate. Yeah, it's

1:15:21

going to escalate. So you're not even supposed to

1:15:23

look like they become like, like a

1:15:25

Medusa, right? Don't look directly at the crazy

1:15:28

guy, right? Because he'll So,

1:15:30

and this is in prison too, right? Why do people shuffle

1:15:33

around with their heads down? Because they don't want to make

1:15:35

accidental eye contact that's going to escalate.

1:15:37

So you have to become so indirect, you can't even

1:15:39

look them in the eyes. You

1:15:41

know, it's funny, many, many years ago, I was like, man,

1:15:45

what color are my mother's eyes? And

1:15:50

I didn't know. Because

1:15:53

I couldn't look at her directly. Because

1:16:00

Abusive people have a terrible

1:16:03

conscience, and if you give

1:16:05

them eye contact, then they

1:16:07

humanize you for a moment, which rouses their

1:16:09

conscience, because now you are quote, making them

1:16:11

feel bad, you have to suffer, you have

1:16:14

to pay. Like

1:16:16

you can't even give them eye contact often. And

1:16:19

you're supposed to be there. Sorry, go ahead. Because

1:16:23

they're fighting back their guilty conscience that

1:16:25

if they were truly morally confronted or

1:16:28

they had no escape or chance to

1:16:30

escalate, if they had to face

1:16:33

their immorality

1:16:35

and corruption, they

1:16:37

would rather hurl themselves off the nearest

1:16:39

cliff than answer for

1:16:42

what they've done. Yeah, dehumanization becomes

1:16:44

a survival strategy for

1:16:46

the relentlessly cruel. Like,

1:16:48

they have to dehumanize their enemies or

1:16:51

their victims, so to speak. They have

1:16:53

to dehumanize their victims, because if they

1:16:55

humanize their victims, their conscience comes roaring

1:16:57

up. And if you do enough wrong,

1:16:59

your conscience is not a guide or

1:17:02

a coach, but a murderer and

1:17:04

a predator. It's

1:17:07

just proliferated the culture too. As a

1:17:09

business owner with hundreds of customers, 99%

1:17:12

of them women. Oh,

1:17:15

this is your dad? No, me. Oh,

1:17:17

you. Asking a... Yeah, just

1:17:19

asking a direct business-related question

1:17:22

from some of these very

1:17:24

traumatized, poor women. It's

1:17:27

like a language that is lost. Yeah,

1:17:30

that directness really is. And also, the

1:17:33

other language that gets lost when you're

1:17:35

around abusers is, okay, how does this benefit

1:17:37

me? Because

1:17:40

everything is there for the

1:17:43

short-term benefit of the

1:17:45

abuser. And you can't say

1:17:47

to yourself, how does this benefit me? Because

1:17:51

that's selfish. So

1:17:53

normal human impulses are

1:17:57

coded in pejorative labels to

1:17:59

power. paralyze their protective

1:18:02

mechanisms. So,

1:18:05

subtlety becomes pettiness. Just

1:18:08

anger becomes vengeance, you know, vengeful,

1:18:10

petty and vengeful, and having self-interest

1:18:12

become selfish and bad. These are

1:18:14

all just words that are used

1:18:16

to paralyze the

1:18:18

defenses against aggressors. We

1:18:23

can see these pejoratives all over the place

1:18:25

in society, and people just throw these pejoratives

1:18:27

around. Like society is founded on verbal abuse

1:18:29

now, right? Well,

1:18:32

why is society founded on verbal abuse? Because that

1:18:35

generally is the weapon of women, and women run

1:18:37

childhoods in the modern world, right?

1:18:40

So, yeah, we have, I'm just by the by, right? I

1:18:43

mean, and listen, verbal abuse is

1:18:45

better than, necessarily, outright violence, so I guess

1:18:47

there's some sort of progress there. But

1:18:52

for you to examine your own self-interest

1:18:54

to accept and work with

1:18:57

the subtlety of your instincts, and

1:18:59

to be assertive would all feel, I think,

1:19:01

vaguely suicidal, especially because you did have a

1:19:03

directly motorist parent. And

1:19:09

you had a mother who screamed at the top of her lungs to

1:19:12

broadcast to the entire household that

1:19:14

she was only and forever going to think of herself

1:19:16

and never anybody else. You

1:19:20

know, why did my mother scream in the middle of the

1:19:22

night, I hate these effing children? That's

1:19:25

a sign. This was the sort

1:19:27

of, in a sense, like the traditional view would be

1:19:29

the devil who controlled her, who she'd

1:19:31

let in and fed, was

1:19:34

warning us that he

1:19:37

was never going to let her go. And

1:19:44

she was never going to get free. And

1:19:50

your parents did, as far as I understand it, they did

1:19:52

not free themselves from all this, right? Hi,

1:19:55

Stefan. Yo. A

1:20:00

lightning strike i turned off my wi-fi and

1:20:02

now i'm just on cellular i apologize for

1:20:05

the you know it's what's kind

1:20:07

of funny about that. That's

1:20:10

a we were just talking about the use

1:20:12

and thunder guards and that's so funny.

1:20:16

And here we are right with the

1:20:19

confrontation of the boss battle and you

1:20:21

your your entire internet gets taken out by

1:20:24

lightning that's pretty wild. And

1:20:26

it's funny too because i was looking at like my

1:20:28

recorder stopped cuz i didn't realize that we dropped

1:20:30

or anything i didn't get that scopes and but

1:20:32

no no no biggie nobody just tell me what

1:20:34

what you remember me talking about and i'll see

1:20:37

if i can. You are you

1:20:39

are such a professional you don't miss

1:20:41

a b you just keep on

1:20:43

rolling so yeah what do you the last

1:20:45

thing i. That

1:20:48

pettiness and. Yeah

1:20:52

i think i think i think i

1:20:54

recall you're on a you're you're

1:20:56

on a heater yeah so yeah i mean

1:20:58

so. For

1:21:01

you to express

1:21:03

feelings of vengeance would have been suicidal as a

1:21:05

kid right i mean you're dead outright so you

1:21:08

know you're right so you can't express vengeance and

1:21:11

you can't have any

1:21:13

subtlety. Because

1:21:15

you'll view that as as pettiness right or

1:21:17

you'll be blamed as

1:21:19

being petty so when. When

1:21:22

we detect someone who's

1:21:24

malevolent or untrustworthy or

1:21:27

immoral amoral or

1:21:30

self when we detect that kind of

1:21:32

stuff it's early warning signs and then

1:21:35

what people do is they

1:21:37

say. You're

1:21:39

being petty right and

1:21:41

and they will have incredulity that

1:21:43

we would make important

1:21:45

decisions based on such in quote

1:21:47

incomplete tiny information right. Which

1:21:50

of course is the case right i mean so

1:21:53

if if there's a deer

1:21:55

i zebra right zebra in

1:21:57

africa and zebra thinks she

1:21:59

smells a lion. Right. Well,

1:22:02

what does the lion want? If the lion could whisper

1:22:04

that, Oh, it's nothing. It's probably just an old path.

1:22:07

You know, maybe there's some scat out here, but

1:22:09

that's nothing. Don't be, don't be ridiculous. It's no

1:22:11

need to run. Come on. Right. That's

1:22:14

hysterical, right? You're overreacting. You're right. So, so

1:22:17

the predators always want to discount our initial

1:22:19

instincts, but you know what happens. They, they

1:22:21

stick their head up. Now they don't want

1:22:23

to run unnecessarily, but

1:22:25

they also don't want to stick around if there's a lion.

1:22:27

So they become hyper alert and look for the very next

1:22:29

sign. And then when the next sign comes

1:22:32

along, they both, right. And

1:22:35

so that level of caution is what keeps the zebra

1:22:37

alive. But of course, if the lion could talk to

1:22:39

the zebra, it would try and talk it out of

1:22:41

its initial perception so the line could get closer and

1:22:43

eat its ass off. Right. Right.

1:22:48

So if you have

1:22:50

discounted your, some of

1:22:53

your emotional apparatus, because

1:22:56

it's judged negatively, in

1:22:58

other words, if you have

1:23:00

associated your emotional self-defenses with

1:23:03

your father's aggression and abuse,

1:23:06

then you will, to some

1:23:08

degree, sail through life without particular

1:23:11

defenses. Now, if you

1:23:13

think about people who are immunocompromised, right?

1:23:15

Like their immune system is down a

1:23:17

lower for some reason. Well,

1:23:20

they have to avoid any

1:23:22

risky activities, right? Big

1:23:25

time. Now, if you have blunted

1:23:27

some of your early warning systems

1:23:31

for a variety of reasons, then

1:23:35

falling in love, which is a risky

1:23:37

endeavor or attachment dating

1:23:40

is a risky endeavor, you're going to be

1:23:43

the boy in the bubble because you can't go to the

1:23:45

creek. Does that make sense? Yes.

1:23:48

So when was the last time you felt that

1:23:51

you fell in love? Not

1:23:55

since high school. Right.

1:24:00

And that's why I was sort of trying to figure out the why

1:24:02

of the breakup, right? So it's been what,

1:24:05

close to 20 years since you fell in love, right? Yeah.

1:24:09

The hell are you doing? Why would you let

1:24:11

this little witch completely wall off your heart? Well,

1:24:16

my dad and

1:24:18

my parents were, uh, it

1:24:21

got really bad in my family in my

1:24:24

early twenties. And what do you mean?

1:24:29

I was about to tell you. Okay. Sorry. I just want to make

1:24:31

sure you weren't going on and all of that.

1:24:33

So, but what happened? That's right. I don't mind no

1:24:35

narrative, but what actually happened? Yeah.

1:24:37

Nobody hangs on your every word like

1:24:40

Stefan. It's amazing. Usually that's what I

1:24:42

do in my conversations. And,

1:24:44

uh, I love it. I just want you to listen to yourself as

1:24:46

well as you listen to others and we'll be, we'll be set. All

1:24:49

right. So what happened in your family? Do you have any point? So,

1:24:54

so I

1:24:57

got, uh, I was experiencing

1:24:59

suicide. I had a suicidal depression, like

1:25:01

around 16 with the breakup from,

1:25:04

uh, yeah,

1:25:06

but it was more news.

1:25:09

No more with my dad, like

1:25:11

having to go get my

1:25:13

old report cards, like the

1:25:15

thought crossed my mind. Like, Oh, if

1:25:17

I just hung myself, then I wouldn't have to experience his fury

1:25:20

and I'll have the problem solved. Cause

1:25:23

it was that bad. And

1:25:28

then I moved out of my parents'

1:25:30

house at 21. I got my own

1:25:32

place and

1:25:34

I had stopped doing my sports because

1:25:36

I had a bad injury and

1:25:38

I thought it was irresponsible to be doing the sport

1:25:41

that I can't make a living with. And I need

1:25:43

to figure something else out to get ready to provide

1:25:46

for a family that this is

1:25:48

just too risky. What I was

1:25:50

doing and, um, I

1:25:54

got really depressed at 22 and

1:25:57

went on antidepressants for like. nine

1:26:01

months, 12 months, and

1:26:04

hated it every second of it, but it

1:26:06

was just fighting off suicidality,

1:26:08

like every minute of every single day. And it was

1:26:10

the hardest thing I've ever been through in my life.

1:26:14

Compared to the breakup, the breakup was almost like

1:26:16

a walk in the park. But this happened after,

1:26:18

I'm not saying because of, but this happened after

1:26:21

the breakup? Yeah,

1:26:23

yeah, at 22. And

1:26:29

all my family was essentially on antidepressants. Sorry,

1:26:32

my apologies. So

1:26:36

report cards are gone by this point,

1:26:38

right? Or is it university stuff? I

1:26:43

tried a little bit of community college, but I

1:26:45

just, I couldn't do it. No,

1:26:47

that's fine. But so what at 22 do

1:26:50

you think started the suicidality? I

1:26:52

know you'd said it'd been constant since the breakup,

1:26:54

but it must've escalated. I

1:26:59

was living on my own. I was

1:27:01

very isolated and didn't have, this

1:27:05

was around 2020, like

1:27:11

2010. So

1:27:16

I'm living on my own and I'm isolated.

1:27:21

I'm working for my dad and I'm just

1:27:23

not feeling any chance at

1:27:26

like economic prosperity.

1:27:29

Still don't follow. Living on your own

1:27:31

is better than living with your parents, isn't it? Yeah,

1:27:36

it is. So that's a plus. Of course. I

1:27:38

don't know what you mean by isolated. I

1:27:40

was living by myself and... Yeah,

1:27:43

you keep saying that like it explains something. I've

1:27:45

lived by myself. I didn't feel isolated. I enjoyed it.

1:27:48

I enjoy living with my wife, but I enjoyed living

1:27:50

on my own. So I'm not trying to say that

1:27:52

mine is the template, but it doesn't follow that. Living

1:27:56

on your own means isolation, means

1:27:58

suicidality. Right.

1:28:02

Right. Pardon me for repeating myself.

1:28:04

I was just trying to process

1:28:06

through it and reconnect with memories

1:28:08

from about 15 years

1:28:10

ago and give you

1:28:13

an honest feedback. I was coming

1:28:19

to the realization that like my

1:28:21

dad, like there was no hope

1:28:24

of like ever fixing the

1:28:29

relationship was what I was

1:28:31

really messed up about. What do you think

1:28:33

happened? Like that I was completely... What do you think happened

1:28:35

that gave you those thoughts? I

1:28:38

mean, it was accurate, right? Your thoughts were accurate,

1:28:40

but was there anything in particular or a slow

1:28:42

accumulation or some big thing or? Slow

1:28:46

accumulation. And what were the kinds

1:28:48

of things that gave you that accumulation? Do you think?

1:28:52

Him just not wanting to talk

1:28:54

to me or care

1:28:58

about me at all. And why did

1:29:00

you work for your dad? He

1:29:07

had me beat. Like I,

1:29:09

whatever he told anybody like in the

1:29:11

family to do, and even me at

1:29:13

that age, like I, he

1:29:15

owned me. Like it was the,

1:29:17

like the epitome of like slave

1:29:21

parent dynamic. Like

1:29:23

I just, I was so

1:29:25

intimidated by him. So he's starting to

1:29:27

throw up this a lot of narrative.

1:29:30

So he said, you're going to work for

1:29:32

me kid. And you're like, okay. Yeah.

1:29:38

Okay. And when did

1:29:40

that, did you work through him throughout like

1:29:43

your teenage years or? 17

1:29:46

is when I started. And

1:29:50

were you given any advantages

1:29:53

in the business environment because he was your

1:29:55

dad? No,

1:29:58

he made it clear that I was... I'm

1:30:01

not going to get any special

1:30:03

treatment at all. And if anything,

1:30:05

all the other employees knew too,

1:30:09

they could take advantage of that. And

1:30:11

it was like a self-humiliation ritual that

1:30:14

I stayed there that long. Okay. Just

1:30:17

learned helplessness. It's just

1:30:19

a ridiculous level

1:30:21

of dude, snap out of it, get yourself out

1:30:23

of here. But- And when did

1:30:25

you leave that employee? When

1:30:29

I was 28. Oh,

1:30:32

well, so you did 11 years under your debt. Yeah. And

1:30:37

what's the field, the general economic field that

1:30:39

you were working in? If

1:30:44

you want to say it, you don't want to say it. It's fine. Wholesale

1:30:48

printing. Commercial wide format. Okay,

1:30:51

right. So, I mean, skilled

1:30:54

manual labor to some degree, right? At the

1:30:56

beginning level. Okay. Yeah.

1:31:01

And when I was depressed around 22

1:31:03

and like really fighting for my life,

1:31:12

I was driving with him during the middle

1:31:14

of the day to go to

1:31:16

some appointment or something

1:31:19

I can't remember for the life of me what it was. It

1:31:21

was either work related or maybe we were going out to

1:31:25

lunch. Like

1:31:28

the one time he would go to lunch with me like once a year,

1:31:30

once every two, I can't recall,

1:31:32

but he, I'm in the passenger's seat

1:31:34

and he's driving and he says,

1:31:38

Hey buddy, you know, I know, you know, you've

1:31:40

really been struggling with like this suicidality feeling that way.

1:31:44

And, you know, I really

1:31:46

feel bad for you. But

1:31:49

if you really feel like

1:31:51

you want it, like you need to kill yourself, I hate to say it,

1:31:54

man, but you should probably just go ahead and do it. Yeah,

1:32:01

that's that's that's shocking

1:32:04

and appalling. So

1:32:06

he's basically from that moment, a K Y S, but

1:32:08

not the opposite of that, right? It's like, yeah, you

1:32:10

know, if you're struggling this much, maybe it's the better

1:32:12

way out, right? Right.

1:32:17

And once he said that I just

1:32:19

got it clear my head, like,

1:32:21

oh, you're like a traitor. Yeah. Right.

1:32:27

And that really broke

1:32:30

my heart into a million pieces after the

1:32:33

breakup with the girl. And then hearing that

1:32:35

from my dad and I'm 22, I, I,

1:32:37

I hate,

1:32:39

I hate the public schools. I hate college.

1:32:43

Um, how is, how are all

1:32:45

the, how is this life? Like what the, what

1:32:47

the hell is going on? Like there's

1:32:49

a war going on in the middle East. All

1:32:52

my friends from high school got hooked

1:32:55

on opioids and went

1:32:57

to rehab or jail or both. I

1:32:59

somehow managed to

1:33:02

slip by, uh, and

1:33:04

make it into weightlifting and

1:33:06

combat sports and just

1:33:09

mostly smoke and weed until I was 21

1:33:11

and quit that. And then

1:33:14

my dad tells me this right to my face,

1:33:16

like a traitor. And

1:33:18

I'm my heart's broken and I'm

1:33:21

22 now and I can buy

1:33:23

alcohol and I just mourn my dad's

1:33:25

death for like the next three

1:33:28

or four years. I'm like constantly drinking

1:33:30

and crying at night, feeling terrible while

1:33:32

still working for him. I

1:33:35

went to a therapist that my

1:33:37

parents used to help prevent them from getting

1:33:39

divorced when they first got married, who was

1:33:41

just like a total liar

1:33:44

and could just give the

1:33:47

bare minimum amount of empathy and listening

1:33:49

that he would keep getting hired. And

1:33:52

I eventually stopped drinking around

1:33:54

like 25, 26 and I'm listening

1:33:57

to you around. Every

1:34:01

single day when I was 22 and 23, like 320

1:34:03

days a year, and

1:34:06

I scaled it down every year until I was

1:34:09

about 26, just

1:34:12

by marking it on a calendar

1:34:15

and keeping account of it and

1:34:17

consciously trying to pay attention

1:34:19

until the point where I didn't have the

1:34:21

urge for it anymore. And

1:34:23

I saw you pop up on the Joe

1:34:25

Rogan podcast for the first time, and it

1:34:28

was like a guardian angel's voice. I can

1:34:30

still remember over 10 years ago

1:34:32

when you did that. And this thing that

1:34:34

you said that just stabbed

1:34:37

me in my heart as far

1:34:39

as like, I have to follow this guy,

1:34:41

like this is the truth. You said to

1:34:43

Joe, you asked Joe, do

1:34:47

you know the two things that prove like, and forgive

1:34:50

me if I don't remember it precisely, but

1:34:52

it was something to the effect of, do

1:34:54

you know the two things, Joe, that can

1:34:56

predict the healthiest outcomes for children? And he

1:34:59

said, no. And you said the

1:35:01

presence of the father in the home and

1:35:03

free access to our play in

1:35:05

nature. And something

1:35:08

even like that simple, and just

1:35:10

the way that you said it and being

1:35:12

able to just pick up that like, you're the

1:35:15

real deal, I was hooked.

1:35:18

And I was

1:35:21

still in a lot of pain and I didn't

1:35:23

know, like I had this like shitty therapist, but

1:35:25

I'm trying to pull myself out of like two

1:35:27

heartbreaks on top of each other. And

1:35:30

then you asked me like a couple

1:35:32

minutes ago, like what have you been doing when you're in

1:35:34

your mid 30s? I got a business going when I was

1:35:36

28. No, I just been dating, why does that solve

1:35:38

it, go on. Yeah,

1:35:41

and just

1:35:43

been terrified of the culture around me, not

1:35:47

being, which

1:35:49

is the point of this call, trusting myself,

1:35:52

right? That I

1:35:54

wasn't prepared enough. And I just

1:35:57

did it with

1:36:00

my own. want to make a mistake and

1:36:02

marry the wrong woman and repeat my childhood

1:36:04

onto my kids or, or marry the wrong

1:36:06

woman. And I've been dating like a maniac

1:36:08

for like the last several years.

1:36:11

And, um, I mean, I'm even got a date

1:36:13

tonight and, um, that's

1:36:17

what I've been doing. Right.

1:36:21

So your father says maybe you should kill yourself and

1:36:23

you decide to start drinking yourself to death. Yeah,

1:36:27

exactly. And so then

1:36:30

after this, you spend another six years working with

1:36:32

your dad, working for your dad and then what

1:36:36

gets you out of that? My

1:36:40

mom who was in the dog grooming

1:36:42

industry had noticed that I had a

1:36:44

fondness for pocket knives, not

1:36:47

like a, a knife, like not like

1:36:49

a weird knife guy, but

1:36:51

I was the only person in the family that

1:36:53

always carried a pocket knife. I

1:36:55

worked with my hands in this manual labor

1:36:57

skilled job and she said, Hey,

1:37:00

there's this guy. He has this, um,

1:37:03

he has this mobile sharpening business and he

1:37:05

drives around and he sharpens all of our

1:37:07

beauty tools. Is that something you'd like to

1:37:09

do? And at first I

1:37:12

was hesitant, but I showed some healthy curiosity

1:37:14

and she, I got hooked up

1:37:17

with, with this opportunity or

1:37:19

around, uh, it almost happened when I was

1:37:21

24 with one of the sharpeners, but that

1:37:24

was a bad business deal. And then fast

1:37:26

forward four years later, I, I got in

1:37:28

touch with another guy. And

1:37:30

as soon as I got that opportunity, I've been

1:37:33

a hundred percent in, in

1:37:35

that business since January, 2017. Okay.

1:37:40

Got it. And

1:37:43

did you date in your twenties? I

1:37:47

did, but it was a constant,

1:37:49

like, um,

1:37:52

lust, not delaying, um,

1:37:55

sex, hooking up too quick and then

1:37:57

being, you know, disgusted by the girl.

1:37:59

and just repeating that

1:38:02

mistake and not actually like, I

1:38:04

was so dissociated from what I had gone

1:38:06

through that to call what I was doing

1:38:08

dating would be like an insult to dating.

1:38:10

What was the longest relationship you had in

1:38:12

your 20s? Two

1:38:16

months. Two months, okay. And how many women do you think

1:38:18

you slept within your 20s? I'd

1:38:22

rather not say. Okay. And

1:38:25

did that put- But I

1:38:27

stopped having casual sex completely like four

1:38:29

or five years ago. Oh, so this

1:38:32

went into your 30s, right? Right,

1:38:36

like 30, 31. Got

1:38:38

it. And would you have like

1:38:40

a date a week, two dates a week, a date a month?

1:38:42

Well, how did that go? Oh,

1:38:46

just it was sporadic. There was no

1:38:48

a date a week. I could go

1:38:51

six months without having a date or

1:38:53

even longer sometimes. And did

1:38:55

you meet these women mostly over the internet or otherwise?

1:38:59

Both, but a lot of them over the internet, but I

1:39:01

did ask some girls out in person. Oh,

1:39:05

I guess you're a traveling knife guy, right? Okay.

1:39:11

And then what was it that happened

1:39:13

in your turning 30, 31 that you

1:39:16

ended the casual sex stuff? It

1:39:20

had been accumulating in my conscience, even

1:39:22

while I was participating all through my

1:39:24

20s, but I was

1:39:27

so dissociated. I wasn't listening to my

1:39:29

conscience enough that this is wrong. What

1:39:32

would you say about your conscience? So

1:39:36

your conscience is saying maybe you should stop this and how

1:39:38

would you reframe that in your head? Like don't be approved

1:39:40

or like what was it that you used to wave your

1:39:42

conscience away? I

1:39:50

don't even know if there was a phrase, if

1:39:52

it was just raw dissociation. So

1:39:54

no, but you said you were feeling

1:39:56

uneasy over your 20s about sleeping

1:39:59

around? Yeah. So,

1:40:02

you felt the unease and what

1:40:05

would you do with the unease? Because

1:40:08

if you were really dissociating, wouldn't even feel the

1:40:11

unease, right? So you feel the unease and what

1:40:13

do you do with it? Bury

1:40:18

it down and give into my lesser impulses, I

1:40:21

suppose. Yes, but bury it down based on what,

1:40:23

right? So you have, because earlier, like I

1:40:25

was sort of saying that you would have feelings of

1:40:27

anger and you'd say, well, I don't want to be

1:40:29

vengeful or, you know, you'd have feelings of subtle danger

1:40:31

and you'd say, well, I don't want to be petty.

1:40:33

Right? So there's a language

1:40:35

that is associated with dismissing our feelings

1:40:39

that usually comes from the abusers. So

1:40:42

what would you say about the unease that you had?

1:40:47

I guess, did you identify the unease as

1:40:49

being associated with sleeping around? Yes.

1:40:54

So, what, that

1:40:56

there's a language that we have that we use

1:40:58

to dismiss our feelings because the feelings are organic

1:41:00

and they can only be opposed by the inorganic,

1:41:02

which is language, right? So

1:41:04

what would you say about your conscious? Can

1:41:07

you say, can you repeat that, the language

1:41:09

organic, the feeling? Can you say that one

1:41:11

more time? Yeah. So the

1:41:13

emotions are organic, right? They come from our biology,

1:41:15

right? And

1:41:18

language is inorganic. It's conceptual. It's

1:41:20

in our head, right? Right.

1:41:24

So in the battle between the body

1:41:26

and the brain, the brain wields language

1:41:30

to dismiss the organic, right? So the

1:41:32

artificial and the inorganic, which doesn't mean

1:41:34

false, right? Language is valid, but it's

1:41:36

not organic. It's not part of our

1:41:39

body in the way that our emotions are.

1:41:41

So we wave away the body with,

1:41:46

language is dead thought, right? Every word that

1:41:48

we use, almost every word we use is

1:41:50

invented by people long dead, right? So language

1:41:53

is dead thought, which is one of the reasons why

1:41:55

it's hard to drag society forward with language, because language

1:41:57

is a bunch of dead thought. from

1:42:00

people from hundreds of years ago, usually a

1:42:03

thousand sometimes. So

1:42:05

yeah, we, we wave away life

1:42:07

with dead thought and that's talking

1:42:10

herself out of feelings. To

1:42:13

answer, yes. And to answer your question,

1:42:15

I probably, I probably told myself nihilism,

1:42:19

like nothing, nothing matters. Like

1:42:21

your life doesn't matter. Like my parents'

1:42:23

abusive voice in my head, like what's

1:42:26

one more casual sexual

1:42:28

encounter, like, Oh, you're hurting

1:42:30

yourself. You know, you're, you

1:42:32

know, you don't really matter. Um,

1:42:35

what, what difference does it make anyways?

1:42:37

Because you don't even matter to your

1:42:39

parents. Nobody, you know, you've, um,

1:42:41

maybe just self-erasure.

1:42:43

Yeah. I told myself. Yeah, yeah, casual sex is

1:42:45

self-erasure, right? Because self is

1:42:47

not just the body, right? Otherwise we would

1:42:50

be completely interchangeable as I guess we are

1:42:52

to the rulers of mankind, right? But so,

1:42:54

so self is not just the body. So

1:42:56

when you treat your body just like meat,

1:42:59

then you're saying I don't exist. Right.

1:43:03

So, so your body can be alive if your brain is

1:43:05

dead, right? They hook you up to the right machines, right?

1:43:08

So you can be brain dead. And so you're gone, right?

1:43:10

And I've, I don't know if you've been around this sort

1:43:12

of situation, but you know, one of my best friends from

1:43:14

my youth, his mother had

1:43:16

a terrible stroke and, and she

1:43:19

was in hospital and they said her brain is gone

1:43:21

and he had to make the decision to unplug her

1:43:23

body because her body could have stayed alive for whatever.

1:43:26

Who knows? Right. Months or years. So

1:43:29

our identity is our inner minds and it's

1:43:31

supported and interwoven with the body and the

1:43:33

instincts of a part of us as well.

1:43:37

So if you're treating your body like a piece of meat,

1:43:41

then you're saying that you as an identity,

1:43:43

as a personality don't exist and all that

1:43:45

matters is the physical lusts and the biological

1:43:47

copy and paste of reproduction, right? The

1:43:49

act of sex. Right. Right. Okay.

1:43:53

So it's a form of self-erasure. So it's tied in with

1:43:55

you might as well not be here, which is what your

1:43:57

father was saying. It's like, okay, well, I'll, I'm treating myself

1:43:59

as a piece of meat because that's all I am. I

1:44:02

don't deserve any better. I'm not, you know. So

1:44:04

to refrain from that would be an act of self-affirmation, and then that happened at

1:44:06

30 or 31, right? And was that an accumulation

1:44:08

or was that one bad experience? No, it wasn't one bad. It

1:44:12

was an accumulation. I had really done a huge service

1:44:14

for myself by starting my business as far

1:44:16

as giving me a

1:44:20

lot of money. I had a lot of money. I

1:44:22

had a lot of money. I had a lot of money. I had

1:44:24

a lot of money. I had a lot of money. I had a

1:44:26

lot of money. I had a lot of money. I had a lot

1:44:28

of money. And it was giving me hope

1:44:30

for the first time for

1:44:32

a family and for a future that there was

1:44:34

like light out of the tunnel of

1:44:37

what I had gone through in my twenties. And

1:44:40

I started to really pay closer

1:44:42

attention to how I was disassociating

1:44:45

and make a conscious effort to listen

1:44:47

to my, to

1:44:49

listen to my inner self. And sorry,

1:44:51

I can't remember exactly where the Joe Rogan stuff was.

1:44:54

I was on three times, I think. But

1:44:57

when did you first start listening? Was it 12 years

1:44:59

ago or something like that? Like

1:45:03

11 years ago, I believe. Got

1:45:06

it. Got it. Okay. So

1:45:10

you then have a bit of

1:45:12

an awakening. You stopped the casual sex and what

1:45:14

happens then? I

1:45:19

got more into philosophy

1:45:22

and got rid of, I defood my parents and

1:45:25

I found friends in

1:45:28

an adjacent philosophical community that

1:45:31

were like-minded and just started

1:45:33

dating like a madman going to singles

1:45:38

events, asking girls out

1:45:40

at the grocery store,

1:45:42

at churches, at church

1:45:44

single events, joining

1:45:46

matchmaking services. I got engaged

1:45:49

to a girl that was

1:45:52

unfortunately had gotten the COVID-vax and I

1:45:55

had found out too late and canceled

1:45:57

that. It just really wasn't even. the

1:46:00

right fit, kind of similar to your

1:46:03

experience of almost marrying the wrong woman

1:46:05

is what I was going

1:46:07

through. And

1:46:10

I had gotten out of that engagement last

1:46:12

summer and I've just been... And sorry, how

1:46:14

long was that relationship? Eight

1:46:17

months. Oh, wow. So you

1:46:20

went from dating to engaged and close

1:46:22

to marriage in eight months, right? And

1:46:25

how old was she? She

1:46:29

was in her mid-20s.

1:46:33

And with regards to the VAX, is

1:46:36

it the mindset behind getting the

1:46:38

VAX or with the physical effects of the VAX

1:46:40

or something else or both? Okay.

1:46:43

And had she had hidden that from you?

1:46:46

Is that right? No,

1:46:49

she hadn't hidden. I had probably

1:46:52

not been director assertive enough in

1:46:54

asking her. It

1:47:00

was so hard to come by even a

1:47:02

decent enough girl nowadays that you

1:47:06

can... It's

1:47:10

pretty brutal, I'm sure, in the dating market

1:47:12

that I

1:47:16

wasn't assertive enough and lost

1:47:18

eight months. And did she have...

1:47:21

We don't have to talk about her in any detail, but

1:47:23

I'm just curious if she herself had had any negative effects

1:47:25

from the VAX that

1:47:29

she knew of. Not

1:47:32

that she knew of. And

1:47:34

that was last year, was it? Yes, sir. Okay.

1:47:38

So dating like mad, I guess if you're beyond the

1:47:40

casual sex stuff, that just means looking for compatibility and

1:47:42

so on, right? Yeah.

1:47:46

Looking for virtue. A

1:47:49

virtuous woman. And how many women

1:47:53

wanted to continue that you didn't want to continue?

1:47:56

Like in other words, they would say, let's keep

1:47:58

going and you'd be like, no, something's not. right

1:48:00

or you end it. Probably

1:48:18

less than like, probably

1:48:21

less than five or 10% of them because

1:48:24

I just

1:48:27

started getting way more, direct

1:48:30

with my assertiveness and standards and

1:48:32

what I'm all about. And so,

1:48:38

I was doing the majority of the

1:48:41

disqualifying. Okay, no, I get that. But

1:48:44

how many women, if

1:48:48

any, if any. If you'd say,

1:48:50

I don't think this is right, she'd say,

1:48:52

no, it is right and here's why. And

1:48:55

now you need to listen to me. I'm

1:48:57

also qualifying. Here's where I think you qualify.

1:48:59

I think there's some incompatibility. Let's set down

1:49:01

and work this out. Oh,

1:49:06

I haven't, I haven't had that conversation. No,

1:49:08

no, that's being on the receiving. Specifically or

1:49:10

something. Right, right. But I haven't been engaged

1:49:12

in that, gotten it to that

1:49:14

level at all. No, no, you, sorry. You wouldn't get

1:49:17

it to that level. That would be the woman's choice.

1:49:21

Right. I haven't experienced

1:49:23

that from a woman, to answer your question.

1:49:25

So you can't arouse in

1:49:28

a woman that

1:49:30

level of commitment where she's just

1:49:32

going to say, no,

1:49:35

I don't accept the, I don't mean stalk of stuff. I mean, no,

1:49:38

that's like, let's, let's

1:49:40

work it out. Right. Let's see where the gaps are.

1:49:42

Let's see what we can do to close them off.

1:49:44

Right. We're both under 30. So we're both adults, you

1:49:46

know, like this, this, just waiting for

1:49:48

the right key and the magic, right lock isn't working.

1:49:51

It hasn't worked for you. It certainly hasn't worked for

1:49:53

me. So let's figure out, you know, we'll draw the

1:49:55

diagrams. We'll make the lists. We'll figure out where

1:49:58

our compatibilities are. We'll figure out. Whether

1:50:00

there's anything that is not negotiable and

1:50:02

will negotiate what can be negotiated, but

1:50:04

let's, you know, like you're such a

1:50:06

great guy. I'm going to fight for

1:50:08

you. Right.

1:50:12

Yeah. Most women are very

1:50:14

flighty and they've got

1:50:16

their finger on the trigger and they're,

1:50:18

they're just as they're still

1:50:20

ready to disqualify as well. That

1:50:23

it's a really delicate dance of,

1:50:26

of, of, um, trying

1:50:29

to get to that stage of compromise.

1:50:34

Let's work it out. Let's draw the diagram.

1:50:37

Well, it's all women for you, isn't it? Because you

1:50:39

said you haven't experienced a woman who's going to fight

1:50:41

for you. Good

1:50:44

point. So for you, all

1:50:47

women are

1:50:50

commitment phobic. Women won't fight for you

1:50:53

or women don't fight for anyone. No,

1:51:00

not at all. Just, uh, not

1:51:03

one that I've come across yet. Let's

1:51:06

make it personal. Right. So

1:51:12

if you can't close a sale and you

1:51:15

close a sale because the customer wants to buy it, right? Right.

1:51:19

So if the customer doesn't want to buy,

1:51:23

why is that, why is that happening? Uh,

1:51:30

failure on the salesman's part to close the

1:51:32

deal. Well, sure.

1:51:35

But you

1:51:37

can't sell a meal to somebody who's already full, right? So

1:51:40

it's not just the salesman's failure to close

1:51:42

the deal. It's the

1:51:45

compatibility of the product to the customer's

1:51:47

desires. Right. Sure.

1:51:50

You can't sell a book to an illiterate person, right? Right.

1:51:55

So it's either a product, it's either a problem with the product or

1:51:57

the pitch, right? Right.

1:52:01

Now, you're a charismatic guy, your language skills

1:52:04

are fantastic, you've got a lot of experience

1:52:06

with women, so it's not the pitch, right?

1:52:12

It could be. No, it's not the pitch. You're

1:52:15

a smoothie, right? You know how to talk to women, you've

1:52:17

had a lot of experience with women, so

1:52:19

it's not the pitch. If

1:52:23

you say so, I'll follow it. No, listen,

1:52:25

if I'm wrong, I'm certainly happy to hear it. You've

1:52:28

slept with a lot of women, so you know how to

1:52:30

pitch yourself to women, right? You

1:52:33

go on a lot of dates, so you know how to approach

1:52:35

women and pitch yourself, right? So let me

1:52:37

put it to you this way. So if you're in

1:52:39

the grocery store and there's a

1:52:41

free product sample, right? Some

1:52:44

piece of cheese on a cracker

1:52:46

or something like that, right? So

1:52:49

you can get women to taste the cheese

1:52:51

and cracker, right? You

1:52:54

can get women to talk with you, to go on dates with you, to

1:52:56

sleep with you if you want, right? You can get

1:52:59

the customer to sample the product,

1:53:01

right? And you can do that however

1:53:03

many times, dozens or hundreds of times, right?

1:53:05

So you've got, you can get the

1:53:07

woman to sample the product, right? You

1:53:11

just can't get her to buy the product. So

1:53:15

that's not a problem with the pitch, right? Try

1:53:19

these cheese and crackers. Oh, I'd love to, right? It's

1:53:22

a problem with the product. It's the problem with the product, right?

1:53:24

So that's what we have to get to, right? Because

1:53:27

if the product isn't right, only

1:53:30

the weakest people will buy it. Right?

1:53:33

I had this story, I don't know, some like

1:53:35

last year or something about, about buying

1:53:38

a bunch of ruts in Morocco, which I

1:53:40

didn't need, right? So

1:53:47

the problem is with the product and

1:53:51

it's easy to blame the market, right? So you're

1:53:53

blaming the market. You're saying women are flighting. Now

1:54:00

I have dated 20 years plus,

1:54:02

so whatever. But so I can't

1:54:04

change the market. I

1:54:06

can only change the products, right? Or

1:54:09

encourage that. Let's go, yeah. That's

1:54:11

why I'm here. So why are women

1:54:14

not fighting for you? Oh,

1:54:18

a lot of them I'm noticing they're so associated

1:54:21

and- Back to the women. Frankly. Yeah,

1:54:24

you're blaming the customer again. Oh,

1:54:27

okay. Why are they not? You're right,

1:54:29

you're right, you're right. Thank you. And this is

1:54:31

what this is a habit. And again, like everyone tells me

1:54:33

other women are blah, blah, blah, the dating is blah, blah.

1:54:35

I said, okay, I can't do anything about that. I

1:54:38

can't. No, you're, no. But

1:54:40

the best thing you can do is work on the

1:54:42

product. But because if you

1:54:44

blame the market, you're helpless. Amen. Yep.

1:54:48

And then there's nothing to talk about. And I'm just like, well, I don't know. Good luck,

1:54:51

man. But I don't think,

1:54:53

and listen, I had women who wouldn't commit to me. I

1:54:55

had women that I couldn't commit

1:54:58

to. So it's

1:55:00

not like I've never experienced this. It's not

1:55:02

like life has changed massively to that degree.

1:55:05

Particularly if you go into places like churches, oh, I guess the

1:55:07

churches have changed a little bit too. But

1:55:10

we at least need to figure out if there's

1:55:12

a problem with the product. There's been some massive

1:55:14

changes in 20 years. There's been some massive changes.

1:55:16

Yes, but not in human nature. Yeah,

1:55:20

okay. There have been massive changes. And the other

1:55:22

thing too, the other thing too is that you

1:55:24

called me. And you know

1:55:26

I've been married for 20 plus years, right?

1:55:30

So you called me, and so calling me

1:55:32

is, by

1:55:34

calling me just as a whole, right? By

1:55:36

calling me, you can't play the you

1:55:38

don't date card. Right,

1:55:41

so you're calling me for relationship advice, knowing

1:55:44

that I haven't dated in over 20 years. So

1:55:47

you can't then say, well, Steph, it's

1:55:49

the market. Because if it's the market, you wouldn't

1:55:51

call me, right? So you're calling me because

1:55:54

part of you thinks it's not just the market, and

1:55:56

it's not. I

1:56:03

mean, I'm not saying your friends all

1:56:05

have perfect relationships, but you did say earlier in the

1:56:07

call that your friends are

1:56:10

getting married. Yep.

1:56:13

Now, maybe it's, I'm sure it's not perfect, but

1:56:16

it's not because there are women out there just too

1:56:18

flighty, right? Yeah,

1:56:20

yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is possible

1:56:22

to pull it off. So what's

1:56:26

wrong with the product? Why are women

1:56:28

not fighting for you? Oh

1:56:31