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WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Tanya Mosley

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with Fresh Air Weekend. Today

0:51

Yo-Yo Ma, perhaps the most revered

0:53

cellist in America, brings his cello

0:55

to play for us. Among

0:58

the things he's known for are his

1:00

recordings of the Bach solo cello suites,

1:02

which he recorded three times over the

1:04

years. He learned the first one when

1:06

he was four. And I'm 68. That

1:10

means I've been trying to get this right for 64

1:12

years. Also

1:15

we hear from actor and director Griffin Dunn.

1:18

His breakout roles were in the 1981

1:21

comedy An American Werewolf in London and

1:23

the 85 Martin Scorsese

1:25

directed movie After Hours. He's

1:28

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1:30

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or situations. Prices vary based on how

3:01

you buy. This

3:03

is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley.

3:05

Terry has the first interview, so I'll

3:07

let her introduce it. My

3:09

guest is Yo-Yo Ma, along with

3:11

his cello, which he'll be playing. He

3:14

is the most famous contemporary cellist and

3:16

perhaps the most revered in the U.S.

3:19

His best-known recordings are of the Bach Solo

3:21

Cello Suites, which he has recorded three times

3:23

in 1983, 1997, and 2018. He's performed with

3:25

orchestras around the

3:31

world, but lots of people who

3:33

pay no attention to classical music

3:35

know Yo-Yo Ma because he's performed

3:37

in so many different settings. He's

3:40

played American folk and bluegrass music, and

3:42

he's played music from around the world

3:44

with the Silk Road Ensemble, which he

3:46

founded. He appeared on Mr.

3:49

Rogers' Neighborhood, Sesame Street, and The

3:51

Simpsons. On the first

3:53

anniversary of 9-11, At the ceremony held

3:55

at Ground Zero, he performed one of

3:57

the Bach's cello suites. Currently

4:00

he played at the Memorial for the

4:02

Seven Aid. Workers from world central. Kitchen

4:04

who were feeding people trapped in

4:06

Gaza. He. Started playing shallow

4:08

at age four and by the

4:10

time he was seven, he performed

4:13

at an event attended by President

4:15

Kennedy and former President Dwight Eisenhower.

4:17

Were Yo Yo Ma was introduced

4:19

by Leonard Bernstein. And

4:21

twenty eleven, you receive the Presidential

4:23

Medal of Freedom from Obama. That's

4:25

one of the many honors he's

4:27

received, including nineteen. Grammys. His

4:30

latest album is called Beethoven for

4:32

School. I spoke with

4:34

Yo Yo Ma earlier this month at

4:37

an event held at W H Y

4:39

Wife were fresh air is produced when

4:41

you receive W H. Why? Why's annual

4:44

Lifelong. Learning all. The

4:51

only honor greater than having Yoyo

4:53

my here tonight as having Yoyo

4:55

Mark with his cello here tonight

4:58

so I'm absolutely thrilled about Whoa.

5:00

Whoa. I want you

5:02

to introduce your child to us because

5:04

it's it's from the seventeen hundreds. This

5:06

chose older than the United States of

5:08

America. Will turn The first

5:10

thing I want to tell you said the

5:13

chose name is Petunia. It has a name.

5:16

And and the reason it's name

5:18

Petunias? Because I was playing in

5:21

Salt Lake City, Utah probably about

5:23

twenty five years ago and high

5:25

school student whose names are still

5:28

remembers Brittany asked me does your

5:30

towel have a name or says

5:32

no but I'll play you piece

5:35

of music and if you can

5:37

think of a name. Maybe

5:39

I'll keep it as I played a

5:42

piece of music she said. Petunia.

5:45

Isis. That's it. And

5:48

the name is stuck. You

5:50

are quite a child. Prodigy you are

5:52

performing for Presidents current and

5:54

former. By the time he was seven,

5:56

Kennedy and Eisenhower tie that. route or

5:59

so yeah And, you

6:01

know, Leonard Bernstein came and heard

6:04

you, right? So

6:06

I'm wondering, when you're young

6:09

and people are making such

6:11

an amazing fuss over you,

6:13

like you're so extraordinary, do

6:16

you risk becoming a

6:18

praise junkie? Do you know, because

6:20

you get so much of it and

6:22

that's maybe your measure of your worth

6:24

in the world. But

6:27

music isn't always about getting

6:29

praises, it's about finding like

6:32

your voice within the music. And I'm wondering,

6:34

some people can't make the transition, I think,

6:37

some prodigies never find

6:39

what's unique about their playing because

6:41

what was unique was that they

6:43

were young and gifted. Now,

6:45

what's interesting about two-year-olds

6:47

and three-year-olds, they are

6:50

the center of their world. Right.

6:53

And if you get a lot of attention, of

6:55

course you want more attention, but

6:57

I think as I was

7:00

growing up, my

7:02

wife and I have friends that

7:04

say, yo yo,

7:08

you know, you and your wife, you

7:10

aspire towards normalcy.

7:17

Now, that's interesting because, you know,

7:20

kids are really smart. They know,

7:23

no matter what you say, you go

7:25

to a class, they figure out whatever

7:27

hierarchy there is, who's smart, who's athletic,

7:30

who does this, and who's, you know,

7:32

who's a bully and who's like, you

7:34

know, on a fast track. And

7:38

they figure all of this out.

7:41

And I think

7:43

we all have this aspiration to

7:48

both belong and

7:50

to feel

7:53

special. Right, very

7:55

true. All of us. So

7:57

I didn't feel that I was particularly special because I didn't.

8:00

and play with a lot of friends

8:02

as a young person. And

8:05

I never thought I was that

8:08

special. A lot of people paid attention

8:10

to me and said, you're this and

8:12

you're that. And I wasn't

8:15

sure that that meant

8:17

anything or was true or whatever, but

8:19

I was trying to figure things out. I

8:22

was actually very confused. About

8:24

what? About everything. I'm an immigrant.

8:26

I was born in Paris. My

8:28

parents were Chinese. And

8:31

guess what? When we moved

8:33

from France to America, our

8:36

French friends would say, Tocqueville,

8:38

why you go to America? This is

8:41

the greatest country in the world. You

8:43

know? And

8:46

once we arrived in America, you know, like Americans,

8:48

this is of course the greatest country in the

8:51

world. You've arrived! And

8:53

my parents would say, well, you know, there's

8:55

Chinese culture, you know, ancient culture. This is

8:58

so great. And I was

9:00

wondering, you know, then why are we

9:02

in America? So

9:05

I was very confused because people would say,

9:07

choose, you must be one or the

9:09

other, whatever. And I

9:11

thought, why? Why

9:13

do I need to choose? Because, you know,

9:16

I love croissants. Do I have to give

9:18

up croissants for Wonder Bread? You know,

9:21

I don't mind rice either, but I love

9:23

potatoes too. You know, it's like, do

9:25

we need to make a choice on everything?

9:29

So when... When

9:34

you were young and performing, were you

9:36

nervous about it? And did you

9:38

ever feel like, don't

9:41

take this the wrong way. But

9:44

did you ever feel like you were like

9:46

a trained seal? Or do you know what

9:48

I mean? Like, here's the kid and he's

9:50

gonna perform for you. This is an amazing

9:52

act because he's a kid. Because it's almost

9:54

freakish to be that talented and you're that

9:56

young and to be able to memorize and

9:58

play such complicated music. Well, that's

10:00

assuming that you're doing

10:02

a comparative thing. I didn't particularly

10:05

know what I was doing

10:07

was, you know, good, bad,

10:09

ugly, or whatever. I

10:11

just did things. Now, yes,

10:14

there's the part of me from

10:17

two, not one, but two

10:20

tiger parents. We all

10:22

have tiger parents, you know, Asian

10:24

household. And that,

10:27

you know, I had to do, well,

10:30

I had to listen

10:33

to them. There's

10:35

not much dialogue. There's

10:37

a lot of monologue, right? You do this, you're

10:39

a good boy, you're going to do this, and

10:41

this is the right thing to do. And

10:44

I had a father who was an

10:46

incredibly gifted teacher. And

10:49

he was a professor in China, a professor of

10:51

music. He studied in children's

10:53

orchestra in New York. And he was

10:55

just a really brilliant teacher, but irrefable.

10:58

And I had a mother

11:01

who loved music, who was a

11:03

singer, who actually loved

11:06

to be moved by music. So

11:08

I had both the head and

11:10

heart sort of thing from either

11:12

parent. And

11:14

I think there was a lot of emphasis on

11:18

trying to get things right

11:20

consistently. So I had fantastic

11:23

training. I had fantastic ear

11:25

training. But

11:28

did I know why

11:30

I was doing something or

11:33

what it was about? I

11:35

think it was after I went away to summer

11:38

camp, and

11:41

especially to college, where

11:45

whatever I was doing and that I

11:48

was passionate about was

11:50

matched easily by my

11:53

peer group being interested in

11:55

their passions. And suddenly the world

11:58

opened up. kind of

12:00

like a uni world,

12:03

sort of hot house atmosphere

12:05

kind of world, opened

12:07

up to sort of my, gosh,

12:10

all this stuff. Did

12:13

you have a chance to be a child when you were a child?

12:16

Because you must have spent so much time practicing.

12:18

I am living my best childhood right now.

12:28

One of the things I find really

12:31

amazing about your life

12:33

story is that you

12:35

were so disciplined as a child, I mean,

12:37

because you were learning so much stuff. I'm

12:40

still disciplined. But

12:43

you went through this period of actually

12:45

rebelling. I'm still rebelling.

12:48

Are you? Yes.

12:50

And of course, I'm rebelling against

12:53

people doing things and not knowing why

12:56

they're doing it. I'm

12:58

rebelling against people saying, this is the

13:01

only way to go. I'm

13:03

rebelling against people saying, this

13:05

is right and this is

13:07

wrong without ever explaining why.

13:11

Yes. But when you were rebelling in

13:13

school, you were

13:15

cutting classes. Yes. In

13:18

Juilliard, you were sneaking up between

13:20

orchestra breaks to get alcohol.

13:22

Absolutely. And got really drunk

13:24

and went to the emergency

13:27

room once. Absolutely. And

13:30

my father had to check me out of the hospital

13:32

because I was 15 years old. You

13:35

had a fake ID. Yes. He

13:38

could not have been very happy about that. No.

13:41

He gave up drinking because, you know, guilt,

13:43

shame, all of that stuff. And your father

13:45

gave up drinking because you were a bad example? Yes,

13:48

because my mother said, you know, see, you're

13:50

a bad example for your son. It

13:55

was horrible. Were you punished? Well,

13:57

the shame and guilt was like, you

13:59

know. If that's not punishment

14:01

enough, it's like, you know, my father's only

14:04

joy, you know, was a glass of wine.

14:06

And he gave that up. Yeah, right? You

14:09

see, I see everybody...

14:11

So, was there

14:13

a point where you weren't sure whether you

14:15

really wanted to play music or whether that

14:17

was just your father's idea? Well, let's put it this

14:19

way. I loved

14:22

music. I think

14:24

after I went and started playing chamber music

14:26

with friends at the Alexander

14:29

Schneider's sort of

14:32

Christmas string seminar, which is now known

14:34

as the string seminar, 10

14:37

days around the holidays where you just

14:39

are playing chamber music

14:41

and playing, meeting, you know,

14:43

15, 16, 17-year-olds, that's

14:46

my version of fun. I

14:49

wanted to become a, you

14:51

know, to join the Juilliard Quartet and

14:54

play cello and be with friends. That

14:56

was my goal. Did I want to be, you

14:59

know, a cellist? Did

15:03

I want to do that? Yes.

15:06

But you know what really inspired me

15:08

most was when I was nine, I

15:10

read a book by

15:12

Pablo Casals. And

15:16

he said in his book

15:18

that I am a human

15:20

being first, I'm a musician

15:22

second, and I'm a

15:25

cellist third. And now,

15:27

coming from my background and reading

15:29

this from my hero, I

15:32

thought, that man I like.

15:35

How did that compare to the message you were getting from your

15:38

father? Well, it was the opposite. It

15:40

was the reverse, right? But you're

15:43

a cellist for... Yeah, yeah. And

15:45

the right order for

15:47

me always, always,

15:51

is you're a human being first, and

15:54

then you are a member

15:56

of that sector of musician second.

16:00

And last, I'm a cellist.

16:04

We're listening to the interview Terry

16:06

recently recorded with cellist Yo-Yo Ma

16:08

at an event held at WHYY,

16:10

where Fresh Air is produced. We'll

16:12

hear more of the interview after a break. I'm

16:15

Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

16:18

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podcasts, only from NPR. Was

17:26

there a piece where you felt like

17:28

you really found your voice as an

17:30

individual? You

17:33

know, as Yo-Yo Ma, as opposed

17:36

to just like, you know, somebody who's

17:38

incredibly talented, but this was your voice,

17:40

your unique voice? That's

17:43

a very interesting question. It implies

17:46

that we all

17:49

have a consistent

17:52

one voice. I

17:54

dare say that all

17:56

of us of a

17:58

certain age. have multiple

18:01

forces. I think that's

18:04

really literally true. You think that's true? Yeah, I think

18:06

it's literally true. Because we were talking earlier about what

18:09

you, Terry, and I, Yo-Yo, try to do

18:12

is to make

18:15

sure that at every stage

18:17

in life that we

18:19

acknowledge that stage and

18:21

not try and pretend we're another

18:24

stage, except for me, I'm still living my childhood,

18:26

but that's different. That's

18:29

an exception. But

18:31

I would say that this

18:33

music... This

19:04

is a sonata by Schubert. When I was

19:06

10, I was mesmerized

19:09

by Schubert. And one of the things

19:11

about Schubert that

19:14

was amazing to me, and I think it

19:16

appealed to me as a 10-year-old, was

19:19

that in the

19:21

happiest moments, there's sadness.

19:26

And in the saddest moments, there's a glimmer of light.

19:31

And I think it's

19:33

the gray, but

19:35

it's not constant gray. And

19:39

I think that's a lot of life. And

19:42

I think as an

19:44

immigrant, you're always aware of

19:47

being able to be on the inside and the

19:49

outside multiple times.

19:52

How does the piece you just played relate to that? It

19:55

has that poignancy,

19:57

it has that wishful quality.

20:00

And you're yearning for something

20:02

and it could be towards

20:04

one way or another

20:06

and whatever. But I can

20:09

tell you something else, when I was 19,

20:11

in college

20:13

they had an orchestra and I was asked to

20:15

learn a piece of music that

20:18

at first I

20:20

was terrified or didn't even

20:22

like but I was incredibly

20:25

attracted to it. And

20:28

this piece of music I'll play a little bit

20:31

of it. Oh

20:59

I love that. You

21:19

love that huh? I love the

21:22

turmoil of it. So

21:26

this was sort

21:28

of in a way going

21:30

to the dark side. And

21:35

it's a piece that was

21:37

written at the

21:39

height of the Cold War, Shostakovich,

21:44

you know, social realism

21:46

depicting literally

21:48

that very thing

21:50

in society. And

21:53

it's funny how we

21:56

get so naturally

21:58

into certain music. like that, Schubert

22:00

I loved as a 10, 12

22:03

year old. But

22:05

for the Shostakovich, I was important

22:07

in the Soviet Union. I

22:09

did eventually visit the Berlin Wall and

22:12

saw all what people went through to

22:14

cross the Berlin Wall with all the

22:16

flowers placed every 50 yards for somebody

22:18

who tried it, didn't make it. But

22:22

it was through reading a book about

22:26

Shostakovich, who I

22:28

think devoted his life to

22:31

advocating for the voices of people

22:34

that were part

22:36

of that system. And

22:40

what is interesting is code.

22:43

Everybody knew

22:46

in Russia, in the Soviet Union,

22:48

knew what that music

22:51

was about. And

22:54

it's harder to censor notes

22:57

than words. But

23:00

the messages are absolutely

23:02

clear. Once

23:04

I understood that that was

23:06

the kind of advocacy, it's

23:09

no longer about my voice, but

23:12

it's about my advocacy

23:15

for the voices of people that

23:18

didn't have the voices anymore. I

23:21

want to end by paraphrasing something that

23:23

you've said. And I think this was

23:25

in reference to recording

23:28

the Bach cello solo

23:31

pieces three separate times. And

23:34

you said that your approach was, this

23:37

might not be perfect, it might not be

23:39

the best performance, but

23:42

it's the best I can do in this

23:44

moment of my life. And

23:46

I find something really beautiful in that

23:48

because it expresses the commitment of doing

23:51

your best in

23:53

that moment. But it also has a kind of

23:55

forgiving attitude that like, it's not going to be

23:57

perfect, but it's the best I can do right

23:59

now. and that's going to be good enough.

24:03

I think that's a beautiful approach

24:06

to things, to the music, and

24:08

maybe to life. I

24:10

think, to me,

24:13

that's been my

24:16

experience of

24:18

your approach over the

24:20

last 40 years. Oh, please.

24:24

Thank you. No, seriously. Because I

24:27

was going to ask you, how do

24:29

you deal with burnout? How does anybody

24:31

who does things for four decades avoid

24:36

the trap of saying, OK,

24:38

I'm caught in a rut?

24:40

How do you rejuvenate,

24:43

regenerate, and

24:46

constantly be curious

24:48

and active and do your best? I

24:51

try and forgive myself

24:54

because I don't want to

24:56

be neurotic. I

24:59

also don't want to

25:01

fall under the spell of

25:04

what I call an industrial

25:06

aesthetic, which is

25:08

your way

25:10

of saying perfection. What

25:14

do we do in industry? You

25:16

make a million copies of something

25:18

with the least amount of error.

25:21

So here's a million copies. Maybe it's six

25:23

out of a million bad. I

25:27

can't play a million concerts and make

25:29

half six bomb concerts. That's

25:33

an unreasonable thing to ask of

25:35

a human being. What

25:38

allows me to not be paralyzed

25:41

is to just say, I'm

25:44

doing my best. And if it

25:46

doesn't work, you know.

25:50

You know my intention is

25:52

to do the best. You

25:55

were so wonderful tonight. You are so

25:57

wonderful. I love you.

26:00

I love you Terry. I love you. I

26:02

love you. You're a hero. Terry's

26:07

conversation with Yo-Yo Ma was

26:09

recorded on stage at WHYY

26:11

when he was presented with

26:13

WHYY's annual Long Long Learning Award.

26:19

As the son of writer and television

26:21

producer Dominic Dunn, Griffin Dunn grew

26:23

up in the center of old Hollywood. His

26:26

father's lavish parties made for countless stories

26:28

about the rich and famous. Sean

26:30

Connery saved him from drowning when he was eight.

26:33

His first babysitter was Elizabeth Montgomery, the

26:35

actor who played Samantha in Bewitched, and

26:38

he shared one of his first apartments with

26:40

one of his best friends, Carrie Fisher. But

26:43

at the heart of Griffin's new memoir,

26:45

The Friday Afternoon Club, is

26:47

also the story of tragedy and how the

26:49

Dunn family overcame it. A

26:52

mental illness, addiction, a closeted father,

26:54

and the death of Griffin's sister,

26:56

Dominique, who was killed by an

26:59

ex-boyfriend in 1982 when she was 22 years old. Griffin

27:03

Dunn began working in Hollywood as an actor. His

27:06

breakout roles were in the 1981 comedy

27:08

An American Werewolf in London and the

27:10

1985 Martin Scorsese-directed

27:13

movie After Hours, which Griffin

27:15

co-produced. His

27:17

most recent work includes roles in This

27:20

Is Us, Succession, and The Girls on

27:22

the Bus. Griffin Dunn is

27:24

also a director. In 2017, he

27:27

directed the Netflix documentary The Center

27:29

Will Not Hold about his aunt

27:31

Joan Didion. And Griffin Dunn,

27:33

welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you. Yes.

27:36

You know, Griffin, this memoir is as

27:38

much about you as it is about

27:40

the famous people who make up your

27:43

life and your family. And the stories

27:45

are both hilarious and at times pretty

27:48

dark. And I'll say even

27:50

the dark points, though, that you write about,

27:53

some of them you write with a tinge of humor. I'm

27:56

just wondering, had you been cataloging these

27:59

stories? knowing that you wanted

28:01

to write a book like this? I

28:04

certainly have. I'd hear myself

28:06

be telling stories to friends over dinner,

28:09

and at a certain point I started to

28:11

think, that was a pretty good story, I'm going to make

28:13

a note of that. And I would

28:16

just let them pile up with, I'd be

28:18

a decade or so away from beginning a

28:20

book, but it was in the back of

28:22

my mind. And they weren't just stories

28:24

about me and my misfortunes that

28:26

were usually always funny, but

28:29

also about my grandparents and

28:31

great-grandparents, who also led

28:33

incredible lives, filled with scandal and

28:36

infidelity and a lot of humor as

28:38

well. I want to have

28:41

you read an excerpt from the book

28:43

about who you were from a very

28:45

young age. If

28:48

hero worship were a disease, my

28:50

case would have been terminal. By

28:53

the third grade I had so many idols,

28:55

I couldn't keep up with which fantasies went

28:57

with which actor or pop star I imagined

28:59

was my friend. My

29:01

walls were covered with cutouts of The Beatles,

29:04

whose first album I played incessantly in front

29:06

of the mirror, air-guitaring and singing

29:09

the chorus as if I were the

29:11

adored fifth member of the band. The

29:14

actor I worshipped was Sean Connery, though

29:17

I only knew him as 007. The

29:19

day he came to a pool party at our

29:21

house, I was starstruck. I couldn't

29:24

believe James Bond was doing laps in

29:26

our pool, and was just

29:28

as surprised to see on his head a

29:30

large bald spot which must have been covered

29:32

with a toupee for the movies. In

29:35

an effort to impress 007, I

29:38

jumped in the deep end before I had

29:40

mastered a decent doggy paddle and

29:42

sank like a stone. I

29:45

saw the reflections of people smoking and

29:47

drinking from below, like

29:49

an underwater Hockney painting, oblivious

29:51

to my effort to reach the service. I

29:53

was certain I would drown and

29:56

not be found until Tuesday when the pool man

29:58

came. Suddenly... in

30:00

one swift motion. A hand

30:02

lifted me by the butt and placed me

30:04

at the pool's edge. A

30:07

wee bit early for the defense, honey,"

30:09

said James Bond. When

30:11

he pulled you up from the pool and said that to

30:14

you, were you aware right in that moment that it

30:16

was Sean Connery that it pulled you out? Yeah,

30:18

absolutely. He was one of the very few

30:20

people of the extraordinary filmmakers

30:22

and actors that came to

30:25

Armhouse, I was completely

30:27

aware of Sean Connery

30:29

as 007 and as a heroic figure

30:33

of which I took very literally and

30:36

at my young age really thought he could be with

30:39

all those beautiful women and capture

30:41

all those bad guys. Your dad was

30:43

this TV executive and for a big part

30:46

of your life, you guys were living in

30:48

Beverly Hills and so he held all these

30:50

parties as you mentioned. That's why Sean Connery

30:53

was at your house. How would you

30:55

describe these parties? They

30:58

were all different kinds of parties. Sometimes

31:01

people would come over in black

31:03

tie and there'd only be

31:05

about 16 people in

31:08

black tie with a little orchestra

31:10

my father hired, a little

31:12

string quartet to play and

31:14

they would sit around a long dinner table

31:18

and talk very, very loud and

31:20

we would be at some point

31:23

before the adults got too drunk, we would

31:25

be brought downstairs, my brother, sister and I,

31:28

in matching bathrobes and

31:30

pajamas and my

31:32

sister and a little Victorian

31:35

bonnet on her head, a night

31:37

calf and we'd come in and

31:40

all the adults would go ooh and ah and

31:43

aren't they adorable? My

31:45

brother and I would bow good night

31:47

and my sister would curtsy and

31:50

they would all clap and think that was

31:52

delightful and then quite a few years

31:54

later I ended up working with Dennis Hopper who

31:56

was at that time quite young and a guest

31:58

in our home. well before he

32:01

did Easy Rider. And

32:03

we were working together, and he

32:06

sort of stared off and said,

32:09

"'Yeah, I was at your parents' house. "'When

32:12

you kids came downstairs, "'I

32:14

thought that was the saddest thing I ever saw.'"

32:17

Oh. How did you interpret that?

32:19

What do you think he meant by it? I

32:21

think he was right. I mean, my

32:24

father was, you know,

32:26

before he became really into himself

32:28

and the man that we know, he

32:31

was a very kind of

32:33

skittish person whose priority

32:35

is about having famous people

32:37

to his home and,

32:39

you know, giving parties. And, you

32:41

know, he would keep scrapbooks of the pictures he

32:43

took of all the famous people who came to

32:46

the house, and the telegrams, the accepting his dinner

32:48

parties. And I look

32:50

back on it, and it was kind of embarrassing.

32:53

If you're just joining us, my guest is Griffin

32:55

Dunn. He's written a new

32:57

book called, "'The Friday Afternoon Club,' a

33:00

memoir about his life and famous

33:02

family who dealt with significant traumas,

33:05

mental illness, addiction, a closeted father,

33:08

and the killing of his sister. We'll

33:10

continue our conversation after a short break. I'm

33:12

Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

33:16

Support for NPR and the following

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34:08

NPR's Through Line. The ancient peoples

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that tie much of the world to

34:12

a common lineage and how

34:14

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white supremacy. Find

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NPR's Through Line wherever you get

34:21

your podcasts. I

34:25

want to ask you a little bit

34:27

about your mom because your mother, Ellen

34:29

Dunn was in her later life, known

34:32

as an activist after your sister

34:35

was killed. She founded the organization

34:37

Justice for Homicide Victims. There's this

34:39

moment that you write

34:41

about that I wanted to

34:43

just ask you about that like maybe speaks

34:45

to your relationship with your mom, where in

34:48

the announcement of your parents divorce, they

34:50

sat you and your brother and sister

34:52

down. And because your mom said, I'm

34:55

leaving you. And so we have to

34:57

tell the kids, sat all of you down.

34:59

And after the announcement was made, the

35:02

kids are crying. You put your hands over

35:04

your face. You're kind of

35:07

crying, but then you look out of

35:09

your fingers and you can, you

35:11

and your mom's eyes lock.

35:14

Yeah, I was thinking that's a significant

35:16

moment for you. Yeah, it is. Um,

35:20

what did it represent? What did, what was that

35:22

unspoken thing you all were saying to each other?

35:25

It was a kind of relief. Um,

35:28

there was a certain tyranny and a, and a, and a,

35:30

he, he would lose his temper a lot at that point

35:32

in his life. And it was

35:35

exhausting. And being the

35:37

oldest, um, I could just, I was

35:39

empathetic to my mother. I could just

35:42

feel her drift further and further away.

35:45

And, um, and, and

35:48

then away from the family. And it was,

35:50

it was kind of startling to me that

35:52

I was losing a connection with her. I've

35:55

always understood my mother. I've always, she didn't,

35:58

she was sometimes particularly toward the end of her life.

36:00

few words. Because she

36:02

suffered from MS. She suffered from MS. She

36:04

could not talk anymore. And this

36:06

is before she was diagnosed but soon would be

36:10

would be soon after. And I

36:14

just I felt terrible that

36:16

my brother and sister were crying that I felt

36:18

terrible about myself that I didn't feel anything. I

36:21

felt this kind of relief and

36:23

and I felt guilty about the relief

36:25

so I pretended to cry and it

36:28

covered my eyes and as

36:30

you said through one slat of my fingers

36:32

I saw my mother whose hands was also

36:35

you know covering her eyes and grief and tears

36:38

and I saw both of us

36:40

saw each other's totally dry eyes

36:43

and we both knew we were faking

36:45

it. You spent

36:47

a lot of time thinking about your parents

36:50

marriage of course your

36:53

mother's choice to marry him divorce him. Also

36:56

your dad's closeted homosexuality which

36:59

you actually didn't confirm until his deathbed even

37:01

though there were signs there. One of his

37:03

first productions was the

37:06

1970 film The Boys in the Band which

37:08

is one of the earliest movies centering queer

37:11

characters. Does

37:13

it seem obvious to you looking back when you

37:15

put it all together? Oh completely

37:19

and you know in the years since I've even

37:22

since his passing it had I think a fairly

37:25

robust gay

37:27

life that was that

37:29

was remain closeted. Did

37:32

your mom know when they were married? I don't know

37:34

the moment that she knew I just

37:36

know that after

37:39

the divorce I

37:42

became her drinking partner. Now

37:44

I was not drinking although she'd give me

37:46

a little glass of wine maybe

37:48

I was now in my early teens but

37:51

she would drink to excess enough to sort

37:53

of over-chair with a young kid with her son

37:57

and it was then that

38:01

she told me, you know, that this trip

38:03

that I remember so fondly with

38:05

my dad and this other guy who

38:07

came with us who I thought was hilarious, who

38:10

reminded me of one

38:12

of the characters, a character I

38:14

like very much in Flipper, the

38:16

older brother. Mom was

38:19

a little bombed and over-shared that

38:21

that guy was my dad's lover. Now

38:25

my reaction wasn't shocked.

38:27

I actually was honored

38:30

that I was thought of as

38:32

being so grown-up as to be

38:34

invited in. I was just wondering how your sexuality,

38:39

your understanding of your sexuality, was

38:42

also impacted by your father's repression

38:44

of his orientation. And I say

38:46

that because you hint at it.

38:48

Well, I had been deflowered when I was 13

38:50

by a girl who was 16 and always had

38:52

these girlfriends.

38:56

And at the time I had a

38:58

girlfriend who I eventually married as

39:00

a teenager as

39:03

well, into Yawana, but that's another story.

39:06

And dad always left his apartment

39:08

unlocked and I walked in on him

39:11

with a guy who turned out to be, you know,

39:13

his boyfriend, lover. And dad freaked out that

39:16

I saw and it was so clear what

39:18

happened, what was going on. The

39:20

guy didn't even have a shirt on and he

39:22

said, oh, this man is my valet. I've hired

39:24

him. You almost wanted to laugh out loud. You

39:27

know, we got out on the street and this

39:29

girl could be quite cruel at

39:31

times too. And we both saw

39:33

the same thing and she said, so your

39:35

dad is gay. Well, he's

39:38

gay. I wonder if

39:40

that means you're gay. Now

39:43

that was like a virus that

39:46

went in my head. I mean, I actually, you

39:48

know, I was 17 or 18. I thought, you know, I

39:54

thought it was hereditary. I thought, you

39:56

know, and I didn't know. I hadn't

39:58

really thought about... my own sexuality

40:02

as that being a preference. But

40:04

I felt I had to find out because

40:07

it scared me so much. And by

40:09

the way, my mother had lots of

40:12

gay friends. And there

40:14

was a gay general who produced Patton,

40:16

the movie Patton, and he taught me

40:18

how to salute. And I found

40:20

out at an early age that his

40:22

practical husband was

40:24

a publicist and they lived

40:27

in houses next to each other. I knew

40:29

that story when I was 11 or 12.

40:32

It didn't make any impression on me. I

40:34

didn't find that unusual. I just

40:36

didn't think it would literally

40:38

the way I thought this would touch me if

40:40

I'd been touched by it. And so

40:43

I went over and kind

40:45

of had uncomfortable,

40:57

weird, you know, sort of sex with the

40:59

valet when my father was out of town. And

41:03

the guy said to me, he said,

41:06

Griffin, I got to

41:08

tell you, you don't have what it

41:10

takes to be a homo. And

41:14

I went, okay, I found out. Okay. I think

41:17

I'm okay. That's something else though, you

41:19

know, to say I'm going to try

41:21

it to actually confirm for

41:24

myself or not whether I am.

41:27

You know, when

41:29

I got to that part in the book, I went, God,

41:31

I really did that. I

41:34

can't believe I did that. My young self really did

41:36

that. I kind of admired it. And

41:38

then when I wrote it down and it

41:40

was, you know, I would send my editor,

41:42

John Burnham Schwartz, these, you know, clumps of

41:44

pages as I went along. And I remember he went, wow,

41:48

you really said that. I actually

41:53

want to talk about your sister Dominique

41:55

for a moment. I should tell the

41:57

audience your sister was strangled by her

42:00

ex-boyfriend John Sweeney. He was

42:02

a sous chef who had been showing

42:04

obsessive behavior towards your sister. He strangled

42:07

her and she

42:10

survived for five days before you all made

42:12

the decision to take her off life support.

42:15

There's this one moment where you write about when you

42:17

arrived at the hospital before she

42:19

died there were photographers waiting outside and

42:21

they were following your family. They were

42:23

writing stories about her relationship and

42:26

I wondered if you saw fame differently after

42:29

experiencing that part of fame.

42:33

What it changed was things I hadn't thought

42:36

of before was something as simple

42:39

as Halloween. She

42:42

was attacked

42:45

on Halloween Eve and

42:51

we arrived on Halloween from New

42:53

York. My brother, father

42:55

and I, my brother and I were in

42:57

the cab going through our neighborhood

43:00

and all these children were all dressed up and

43:02

they were covered in blood and someone had hatchets

43:04

in their heads and ghosts and

43:07

all this obsession with death and violence

43:09

and I

43:12

just looked at these kids having the

43:14

time of their lives but

43:17

violence had never touched

43:20

their lives and I

43:24

kind of remember wishing it never would and

43:27

I just

43:29

thought I'm never

43:31

gonna put on a Halloween costume again and have

43:36

it. Who

43:38

was Dominique? What role does she fill in

43:41

your family? Well being

43:43

the only girl

43:45

and the youngest she

43:47

was by far the favorite of

43:51

my parents and my brother and I

43:53

you know just We

43:57

were old enough to remember her coming back from

43:59

the hospital. My mother

44:01

had lost. Two. Girls

44:03

before. Oh and I was in

44:05

the car with her when she

44:07

miscarriages little boy. A

44:10

She was fully pregnant but bleeding and she

44:12

drove herself with me in the passenger seats,

44:14

which I remember that was another for trying

44:16

of i'm a relation to my mother. That

44:18

was another hugely bonding moment for us even

44:21

though I was only about four years old.

44:24

And she said you're very brave Griffin when

44:26

she left me in the car as she

44:28

was taken in and apes and I waited

44:30

for my father and then she lost another

44:33

girl. So when she came into our lives

44:35

it was like oh my God And and

44:37

and my Mom first thing she was I

44:39

can't believe I finally got a little girl

44:41

says I finally got a daughter and. Pounds.

44:49

And so we were. Are you know some

44:51

any? Was she the lie to our lives

44:54

and up. In

44:56

Seattle. You know

44:58

she grew up she's quite hold

45:00

posse little thing and my decoder

45:02

little Miss Muffet and and see

45:04

you know loved animals eggs you

45:06

know just from the get go

45:08

and up my brother and I

45:10

would just like compete to do

45:12

things for and. She. Knew.

45:16

My father was gay long before. We

45:19

would find out and she never told

45:22

us she was. That was like between

45:24

in my my dad knew that she

45:26

knew because. His.

45:29

Get a relationship with a friend

45:31

of hers for twenty something years

45:33

and which we never knew. I

45:36

never knew until Dad was on

45:38

his deathbed. Ss. And.

45:42

And when she decided to become an actress.

45:45

I was. In New York doing

45:47

everything but being an actor and being

45:49

rejected and you know, on the border

45:51

of being a better guy. She says

45:53

you want to be an actress and

45:55

went oh god.and Tommy don't do that

45:57

And. I think about. Week

46:00

or two later. She. Auditioned

46:02

one of her very first auditions

46:04

for a Tv movie called diary

46:06

of a Teenage Hitchhiker. And

46:09

see played the teenage hitchhiker.

46:11

she was number one in

46:13

the closet. And

46:15

of she was off and

46:17

running. It's also.

46:19

Like you were reluctant acted out

46:21

as you actually turned down a

46:24

lot of roles following after hours

46:26

while we sat reluctance about. I

46:30

think I had a complicated relationship

46:32

with success and certainly with same

46:35

as with same. One

46:37

it brought back all that kind of. The.

46:40

Importance of. Being. Famous

46:42

was when I was. Brought up in

46:44

the house like you know, the way

46:46

people talked about celebrities like there were

46:48

like celebrities and then everybody over a

46:50

bunch of nobody's But there was also.

46:53

The. Came with it a great

46:55

deal of attention. Like unwarranted attention.

46:58

Was it or into self sabotage? Because

47:00

I mean still offered some really powerful

47:02

wells like sex, lies and videotape. He I

47:04

don't I. Now I was. I mean, you've. Decided

47:06

to do roles like. A

47:09

talking penis. Guy know or you won't

47:12

get as the zigzag what to get into

47:14

his I just felt kind of lost. I

47:16

felt lost about my decisions and still every

47:18

actor. At. Some point usually

47:20

early in their careers the they

47:22

think the entire world is. Waiting

47:25

to see what decision you make

47:27

next Palms and that you know

47:29

is as it will cause great

47:32

controversy and affect the economy. If

47:34

you know you take a crappy

47:36

jobs and or do a movie

47:39

that's a flop so it paralyzes

47:41

lot of people. And

47:43

I was particular paralyzed with that.

47:45

I felt much more comfortable producing

47:47

movies that I had developed the

47:49

story with and that I knew

47:51

where it was going. Still a

47:53

news, A good movie. There was

47:55

a set attracting top directors and

47:57

top actors on. That. Said it.

48:00

They knew I was doing really good works

48:02

When I was my decision making about being

48:04

an actor said just involve me. I wouldn't

48:06

so good at that gonna decisions. He

48:09

produced a documentary about years. Yeah.

48:11

I challenge Twenty Seventeen about her life

48:14

and career. It's called Joan Didion. The

48:16

center will not hold and I want

48:18

to play a clip from it.

48:20

It's the two of you are. You're

48:23

looking at old photographs, And you

48:25

remind your. I. Joan about the time

48:27

when are you in your brother

48:29

Alex first met her as children.

48:32

After. Your uncle married her. Let's listen

48:34

General meeting me for the versa. Maybe.

48:37

It was in for she's been and. Here's

48:40

my. Take. Five

48:43

year old memory or mean you. Were.

48:46

As a pool. Alex. I

48:49

had matching swim trunks where

48:51

his these sites like bicycle

48:53

paths with gold buckles on

48:55

it. And.

48:58

Us. We. Were. Ah

49:00

you know this is how this is rarely

49:02

your time and are matching. Fading

49:07

says and. Everybody is very

49:09

excited about you and John coming over. Most.

49:12

Cunning. Nervous. And was telling

49:14

us about in Oregon of each on supplies. A

49:17

meeting you. And. Us.

49:20

John. says

49:22

a. Person's.

49:24

Is a little. As. Out on some

49:27

token. out of there. And.

49:29

I looked down and one ball

49:31

as comes out of the seem

49:33

that was broken in those places

49:35

bathing suit. And

49:38

Dad and John and I

49:40

think my mom roaring with

49:42

laughter and I was Scarlets

49:44

I was so embarrassed. And

49:46

you're the only one that

49:48

unless. You really? You

49:50

just kept right on the knowing society

49:53

with a totally straight face. I

49:56

was always loved you for that is

49:58

a. That

50:01

was my guest Griffin. You might

50:03

smile just remembering that. Yeah, it's

50:05

such an intimate moment. You and your

50:08

aunt, you're sitting side by side together.

50:11

I was also thinking about, I mean, why

50:13

this moment is forever cemented in

50:15

your mind. What was it about

50:17

that moment of meeting and the

50:19

way Joan reacted to that embarrassing

50:21

situation that sticks with you? Because

50:25

it became emblematic of the kind of person she's

50:27

known for as a writer. But in my mind,

50:29

at that time, having never

50:32

read her, she was

50:34

a person who didn't go with

50:39

the crowd, did

50:42

not join the laughter of adults

50:44

toward a little boy. She

50:49

saw it differently. And

50:54

she looked at me through these big sunglasses,

50:57

and she was not that much taller than me

50:59

either. And I felt this unbelievable

51:02

connection. And she seemed the subtext

51:04

between us was like going, I'm

51:07

not with those guys. Well,

51:09

Griffin, thank you for allowing us into your

51:11

family's life and your story. Thanks

51:14

so much. Griffin Dunn's

51:16

new book is The Friday Afternoon

51:18

Club, a family memoir. Fresh

51:29

Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden.

51:31

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our

51:34

technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our

51:37

interviews and reviews are produced

51:39

and edited by Amy Salat,

51:41

Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann

51:44

Marie Baldonado, Sam Brigger, Lauren

51:46

Krenzel, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yaukundi,

51:48

and Joel Wolfram. Our digital

51:50

media producer is Molly Seavey-Nesper.

51:53

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more at rosettastone.com. David

52:36

Lynch's films explore dark themes,

52:38

but in a rare interview on

52:40

Wildcard this week, he says

52:42

he's remarkably content and you

52:44

can be too. We're supposed to be like

52:46

little dogs with our tail just wagging and

52:48

being happy. Little smiles on our face all

52:50

day long. This is the way it's supposed

52:52

to be. I'm Rachel Martin. Join us

52:55

on NPR's Wildcard podcast, the

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game where cards control the

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conversation.