0:00

Support for NPR and the

0:02

following message come from Bombas.

0:05

Bombas makes absurdly soft socks,

0:07

underwear, and t-shirts. And for

0:09

every item you purchase, Bombas

0:11

donates another to someone facing

0:13

homelessness. Get 20% off your

0:15

first purchase at bombas.com/NPR and

0:17

use code NPR. This

0:20

is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My

0:23

guest, Colson Whitehead, won Pulitzer Prizes

0:25

for two consecutive novels. The

0:27

first Pulitzer was for the Underground

0:29

Railroad, an allegory about race in

0:31

America told through the stories of

0:33

an escaped slave and a slave

0:36

catcher. It was adapted into an

0:38

Amazon series. The second Pulitzer

0:40

was for the Nickel Boys, based on

0:42

the true story of a state reform

0:44

school for boys in which the boys

0:46

were physically abused and dozens died. A

0:49

film adaptation starring Anjanu Ellis Taylor and

0:51

Daveed Diggs is expected to be released

0:54

in October. After

0:56

writing about those grim subjects, Whitehead

0:58

started writing crime novels, said in

1:00

Harlem. These novels gave

1:02

him the chance to write snappy

1:04

dialogue laced with witty observations while

1:07

writing about class and race, as

1:09

well as crime and corruption at

1:11

every level from petty criminals to

1:13

cops, city politicians, and Harlem's black

1:15

elite. Harlem Shuffle, the

1:17

first novel in his projected Harlem trilogy,

1:19

was set in the 60s. The

1:22

following novel, Crook Manifesto, takes

1:24

place from 1971 to 76. It

1:28

was published last summer and came out in paperback

1:30

this week. Crook Manifesto

1:32

brings back the main character,

1:34

Ray Carney, the owner of

1:36

a furniture store on 125th

1:38

Street in Harlem, who takes

1:40

pride in upgrading his customers'

1:42

living rooms with comfortable, quality

1:44

sofas and recliners. But

1:46

it's the money he's earned fencing stolen

1:49

goods that's enabled him to move from

1:51

a cramped apartment to the home he

1:53

owns on Harlem's Strivers Row. But

1:55

fencing got him deeper into crime than he was

1:58

prepared for. In the opening of Crook Manifesto, He's

2:01

been retired from crime for four years, but

2:04

when his daughter insists that she needs

2:06

tickets to the Jackson Five concert, but

2:08

he learns they're sold out, he goes

2:10

to the person he's confident can get

2:12

him a pair, a corrupt white cop.

2:15

By asking for a favor, Carney is

2:17

forced to perform one in return, which

2:19

leads him to become the unwitting accomplice

2:22

to a murder. The novel's

2:24

characters include a leader of the

2:26

revolutionary group, the Black Liberation Army,

2:28

the producer of a Black Spoitation

2:30

film, and a groundbreaking comic that

2:32

seems to be based on Richard

2:34

Pryor. Sirens from

2:36

police cars and fire trucks are the

2:38

background noise throughout the book. We

2:41

recorded our interview last summer when Crook

2:43

Manifesto was first published. Colson

2:46

Whitehead, welcome back to Fresh Air. It's so great to

2:48

have you back again, and I'm so glad you wrote

2:50

a sequel to Harlem

2:53

Shuffle because it's really such an

2:55

enjoyable series. I

2:58

want to start by asking you to read a

3:00

section from the first chapter

3:03

of the book. Just to set it up, why

3:05

don't you explain the scene? Set the scene for us.

3:08

Sure. It's the opening of the book, 1971, and

3:12

Ray Carney, our furniture

3:14

store owner slash part-time

3:16

fence, is having

3:18

a normal day of business, which means there's a lot of

3:20

noise and crazy activity outside

3:22

on 125th Street in Harlem. He

3:26

has a sales assistant named Larry,

3:29

who is trying to reel in a customer named

3:31

Mr. Foster. Another

3:34

siren. Business, orderly

3:37

business, unfolded inside the walls

3:39

of Carney's furniture, but out on the

3:41

street it was Harlem rules. Rowdy,

3:45

unpredictable, more trifling than

3:47

a loser uncle. The

3:49

sirens zipped up and down the

3:51

abs as regularly as subway trains,

3:53

all hours, per calamity's

3:55

timetable. If not the

3:58

cops on the mayhem mission, then an

4:00

ambulance... ambulance, racing to unwind fate. A

4:03

fire engine speeding to a vacant tenement

4:05

before the blaze ate the whole block,

4:08

or en route to a six-story building

4:10

kerosene for the insurance, a

4:12

dozen families inside. Carney's

4:15

father had torched a building or two in his

4:17

day. It paid the rent. This

4:20

was a radio car siren. Carney

4:23

joined Larry and Charlie Foster at the window.

4:25

On the other side

4:27

of 125th, two white officers hassled

4:29

a young man in a dark

4:31

denim jacket and red-flared trousers. Their

4:34

vehicle beached on the sidewalk. The

4:37

cops pushed him up against the window

4:39

of Hutchins tobacco, known for its cigarettes

4:41

without tax stamps, and for its vermin

4:43

problem. The

4:46

125th Street foot traffic bent around this

4:48

obstruction in the stream. Most

4:50

did not stop. Nothing special

4:52

about a roust. If not

4:54

here, somewhere else. But

4:56

the manhunt had people edgy and off

4:59

their routines. They lingered and

5:01

muttered to one another, sassing and heckling

5:03

the policemen, even as they remained at

5:05

a distance that testified to their fear.

5:09

The taller cop swept the man's feet

5:11

apart and patted the inside of his legs.

5:14

What'd he do, Carney said? They

5:17

pulled up, tackled him like he robbed the

5:19

bank, Larry said. Acting

5:21

crazy, Charlie Foster said, looking for

5:23

those Black Panthers. Black

5:26

Liberation Army, Larry said. Same

5:29

thing. Carney

5:31

didn't want to interrupt when there was a

5:33

fish on the line, but the disagreement between

5:35

the Panthers and the offshoot Black Liberation Army

5:38

was about more than names. The

5:40

philosophical dispute encompassed the temperament of

5:42

the street, law enforcement's

5:44

current posture vis-a-vis Harlem, and

5:46

all the sirens stepped

5:49

back, and maybe it

5:51

contained everything. That's

5:54

Colson Whitehead reading from his new

5:57

novel, Crook Manifesto. interesting

6:00

that you get in like the Panthers

6:02

versus the Black Liberation Army, like by

6:04

page nine. And

6:07

the impression I get, you know, from that

6:09

passage is that the Panthers

6:11

and the BLA, they're making headlines, but

6:13

to the people in Harlem and the

6:16

people who work at Ray

6:18

Carney's store and to Ray Carney himself, it's

6:21

confusing what the difference is. And their

6:24

revolutionary politics isn't meaning

6:26

very much to the people in

6:29

Ray's world. Yeah, I

6:31

mean, it's 1970, 1971, and there's this rift

6:34

in the Black Panther Party. How do

6:36

we actually get things done? Can

6:38

we work within the American

6:40

system or do we want revolution?

6:43

And so the Black Liberation Army

6:45

has splintered off. They're

6:47

robbing banks. Allegedly, they're taking

6:50

credit for shooting at policemen.

6:53

And there's a manhunt

6:55

sort of disturbing the rhythm

6:58

of people's lives. What's going on? Where are

7:00

all these policemen sort of cruising around our

7:03

neighborhood even more than usual? And

7:05

it's in this moment of rupture

7:07

that I pick up Carney's

7:09

story a couple of years after the first book,

7:11

Harlem Shuffle, and he has to

7:13

navigate this mess. Why did you want to

7:15

pick it up there? I

7:18

have a system where the first book would

7:20

be about the 60s and the second about

7:22

the 70s. And I'm

7:24

trying to find moments of

7:26

opportunity for storytelling. Let's

7:29

speak to Carney's dilemma in this world.

7:33

What's next for him? Which way is he going to jump? The

7:35

same way the Panthers are at this moment of

7:38

inflection. Where's the city

7:40

going? Crime is at an all-time

7:42

high. We're looking down at

7:44

a fiscal crisis that's coming down the

7:46

pike. So New York is in

7:48

this place of change as well. And

7:50

so I picked 1971, 1973, and 1976 because each offers

7:56

a different sort of opportunity to drop

7:58

Carney. and his supporting

8:01

cast in a different place. The

8:04

Black Liberation Army in your novel

8:07

is in with some corrupt cops in

8:10

terms of expropriating

8:14

money from businesses and banks. So

8:18

were they together in the real

8:20

world, the members of the Black

8:22

Liberation Party and corrupt cops who

8:25

were willing to steal money or get

8:28

payoffs in order to do what they wanted to

8:31

do? Well, they're incredibly corrupt

8:33

cops in New York in 1971. It's

8:36

the year of the NAP commission, a

8:38

big police corruption investigation that

8:40

people might have heard of through Serpico.

8:43

Is there a documented link between

8:46

police in real life and the Black Liberation

8:48

Army? I invented it. I

8:50

think at different points in the lives

8:53

of different cities like New York and Los Angeles, you

8:55

do get that sort of more direct collusion. The

8:58

crime in this book, that

9:00

Detective Munson, the sort of white corrupt

9:02

cop, is engaged in is invented, as

9:04

far as I know. Do

9:06

you feel like you're smearing the BLA by doing that? I

9:11

think they're

9:13

sort of cagey about what they were up

9:15

to in the early 70s, even still, even

9:18

after some of them have fled

9:20

to Cuba or serve their prison

9:22

sentences. So

9:25

I'll let them sort of speak to themselves. Ray

9:29

Carney's son asked him about the difference

9:31

between the BLA and the Panthers. The

9:35

father says, well, the Panthers are about

9:38

reform and the Black Liberation Army is

9:40

about revolution. It's kind of the difference

9:42

between the sofas and the

9:44

recliners that I sell on the store and

9:47

the Castro convertible, which was a

9:49

revolution. The Castro convertible was, I

9:51

think, the first couch that

9:53

converted to a bed. The

9:55

father says, Castro convertible, you open

9:57

it up and poof. your

10:00

living room is a bedroom, it's a revolution.

10:03

I think like, what a hilarious way

10:05

of explaining it. He's always bringing things

10:07

back to furniture, you know, and I think that's

10:10

one of the fun things about the book is

10:12

that he's not

10:14

your typical criminal, everything is filtered through his

10:17

work, his needs, his

10:20

idea of what an upstanding member of the

10:22

community is, and definitely if he's

10:24

looking for a metaphor, it's going to be drawn

10:26

from his showroom, and that's something that

10:28

repeats a lot and is the filter

10:31

for his world. The way he gets

10:33

back into crime is that his daughter says,

10:36

you promised you'd get me tickets to the Jackson

10:38

Five, but there are no tickets left, and she

10:40

says, but you promised. So

10:42

even though they're sold out, he knows that Munson,

10:45

this corrupt white cop,

10:48

knows how to get things that

10:51

are ungettable. So he leans on

10:53

Munson to get the tickets, but

10:55

in return, Munson wants

10:57

him to fence some jewels,

11:00

like $200,000 worth of jewels, and that's what gets

11:02

Carnian over his head. He's

11:11

retired, and I think

11:13

one of the tropes of this kind

11:15

of story is that when the criminal retires, forces

11:18

conspire to bring him back in. In this

11:20

case, it's the Jackson Five, who

11:22

are at the height of their early fame.

11:25

They're going on tour with the Commodores, playing

11:27

Madison Square Garden, and like any good father, Carney

11:30

wants to get those tickets for

11:33

his daughter, and then of course,

11:35

complications ensue, and he's caught up

11:37

in this nap commission hysteria,

11:39

the Black Liberation Army's criminal

11:42

shenanigans, and we

11:45

take it from there. Clothes

11:48

figure prominently in the new book. This

11:50

is after all the 1970s, the era

11:52

of big collars and big hair, and

11:55

jumpsuits, and the color

11:57

orange, and you write the...

12:00

flamboyant quotient in Harlem was at

12:02

a record high. The line between

12:04

the stylish and the pimpified was

12:07

unstable, ill-defined. The men

12:09

on the corner were pimps, no doubt.

12:11

And then – so talk

12:13

about that line between, you know, what pimps

12:15

were wearing and what everybody was wearing. Well,

12:19

I mean, I think, you know, that stereotypical

12:21

image of a pimp was actually real if

12:23

you, you know, go back and look at

12:25

photographs of

12:27

people in the lifestyle. Anything

12:30

that was crazy and outrageous

12:32

that teenagers and hip young

12:34

20-somethings were wearing was

12:36

taken to synthetic

12:38

fabric extremes in pimp style.

12:41

So I am trying to recreate

12:45

an early 1970s that I recognize. You know, I

12:49

think when I was five or six and look at pictures

12:51

of me when I was five or six, I

12:53

really think, what was I wearing? Like,

12:55

the colors are so crazy. It

12:58

seems like such an otherworldly costume.

13:01

And of course, you know, the pimps took it

13:03

to a different extreme. I

13:05

find myself in trying to recreate

13:07

the 60s and 70s, finding different ways to bring

13:10

the reader in. I think the

13:12

reader remembers that period of

13:14

time and their own excesses and

13:17

hopefully they're, you know, painting themselves in

13:20

these different scenes. I

13:22

was glad you worked in Blaxploitation films of

13:25

the period and one of the characters is making

13:28

one and one of the small

13:31

time criminals becomes the security guard.

13:33

So you had to figure

13:35

out what was the plot going to be

13:37

for the Blaxploitation film that you were creating.

13:39

So talk about doing that. Well,

13:42

yeah, there are different

13:44

strands of Blaxploitation films.

13:46

There's the criminal. There's

13:49

the shaft-like private

13:52

detective. And there's a whole genre

13:54

of secret agents, black secret

13:56

agents who can

13:59

take down the... the area in

14:01

industrialist, but also talk the language

14:03

of the street. And my protagonist,

14:07

Nefertiti TNT falls

14:10

into this last category. There were

14:12

different kinds of black exploitation

14:15

crime stories. There were private

14:17

eyes like Schaft. There were

14:19

criminals on the rise, as

14:21

in Superfly and Black Caesar.

14:24

And then there were black

14:26

secret agents who could karate-chop

14:28

German industrialists with

14:30

Nazi sympathies, and also talk the language

14:32

of the street and save the community

14:34

center. So the hero

14:36

of my black exploitation film in

14:38

this book is Nefertiti Jones,

14:40

Nefertiti TNT, and she works

14:43

within a system, which sort

14:45

of nods to our earlier talk

14:48

about reform. But is also fighting

14:50

for revolution. She's a

14:52

black sleeper agent in the

14:54

white power structure. And so that theme of

14:57

reform and revolution sort of swims through different

14:59

parts of the book and the black exploitation

15:02

movie within the book. What are

15:04

some of the films you watched again or watched

15:06

for the first time to get in the spirit?

15:09

I mentioned Black Caesar, which is a

15:12

crime lord's rise. Blackula

15:14

was very important to me as a

15:16

young kid. There were a lot of

15:19

films with black actors growing up. And so

15:21

I gravitated as a seven- and eight-year-old

15:24

to a lot of black exploitation films. And I remember Blackula

15:27

with his incredible

15:29

afro, his incredibly stylish

15:33

digs, biting the necks

15:35

of young LA unfortunates.

15:40

A lot of the stuff doesn't hold up. I

15:42

think I sort of adored it as

15:45

a distorted reflection of black life. When I was

15:47

a kid, lacking other depictions

15:49

in my 20s, I thought that I found

15:51

it very campy and I loved watching

15:53

all the black exploitation. And then

15:55

I had to figure out what I could use for

15:57

my book. I

16:01

find that maybe it's older,

16:03

but a lot of pleasure is gone. Or

16:07

there's so many other black actors, writers

16:09

doing great work that I didn't have

16:11

to keep all my hopes upon this

16:15

early 70s run of black exploitation fair.

16:18

So give us an example of what made

16:20

you cringe in Blackula or any of the

16:22

other films that you watched for the book.

16:25

I think anytime they bring

16:28

in a, like, save in a community center

16:30

from the white industrialist, I mean, there's a

16:32

whole thing about... Cleopatra

16:35

Jones is a famous black exploitation movie

16:39

with a high-kicking kung

16:41

fu secret agent

16:43

who works for an unnamed government

16:45

organization. And

16:47

she moonlights taking

16:50

down supervillains and then goes and

16:52

works in the...and sort of

16:54

pitches in at the local community center. And

16:57

there's this need to

16:59

represent sort of black

17:02

consciousness and positive

17:04

ideals and wedge

17:06

them into this

17:08

exploitation frame. The idea

17:10

of these kind of film is to get

17:12

people into the seats, to give people

17:15

a reason to cheer, to see

17:17

black people be up white people. And

17:20

then there's also this kind of social impulse

17:23

that they feel the need to insert.

17:26

And it ends up being very

17:28

sort of absurd and ridiculous in

17:31

a way that, you know, I once found sort

17:33

of amusing, but now it just sort of seems, you

17:35

know, a bit sad. Let the

17:37

exploitation be exploitation. Let the

17:40

politics live on their

17:42

own in a separate sphere. But then

17:44

trying to be everything for people

17:46

who are just trying to forget their cares on

17:49

a Saturday evening, it gets

17:51

a bit too complicated. Part

17:54

of the black exploitation section of the film is set

17:56

in Greenwich Village. And

17:59

there's a black comic. performing at

18:01

a club there, who I think is

18:03

modeled a little bit on Richard Pryor. Yeah,

18:06

Richard Pryor was important

18:08

to me growing up, you know, sort of cultural commentary.

18:10

And at this period, 1973,

18:12

he's already sort

18:14

of broken away from his

18:16

square persona in the early 60s, doing

18:19

this kind of straight Bill Cosby

18:21

stuff, and has really

18:23

broken through and has come up

18:25

with his fiery, bombastic persona. And

18:28

he's about to break into the

18:30

national consciousness. His concerts

18:33

are starting to blow up. But

18:36

he is doing exploitation movies, like

18:38

The Mack at this time. And

18:40

we catch him at this

18:42

moment where he's uncontrolled and

18:45

has all his promise. But, you know,

18:48

looking back from our contemporary

18:50

perch, we see him flaming out literally, you

18:53

know, six years later. So

18:55

I wanted to put him in there. I wanted

18:57

to sort of tackle Black Genius. A

19:00

lot of the figures in the book are corrupted. The

19:03

crooked policemen, various politicians,

19:05

and then Richard Pryor. He

19:08

has this

19:10

moment of promise and possibility, and

19:12

his own demons do him in, like so many other characters

19:14

in the book. What did he mean to you when

19:16

you were growing up? You

19:19

know, a favorite activity in my house

19:21

was watching HBO, whether it

19:23

was George Carlin or Richard Pryor. And

19:25

both of these guys would veer between

19:28

the tragic and the

19:30

absurd, you know, from minute

19:32

to minute, their bits would rove over

19:35

the human condition and, you

19:37

know, turn between these different extremes.

19:41

Definitely in my book, I think there's a lot of, a

19:44

lot of terribleness on display about the human

19:46

condition, and also I think a lot of

19:48

humor and a lot of human

19:50

absurdity as well. So I'm trying

19:52

to tackle with those extremes of the

19:54

human experience in my work,

19:57

and then people like Richard Pryor and Michael

20:00

and George Carlin were the first

20:02

people to articulate that for me when I was

20:04

like 10 or 11 and watching their concert films

20:06

with my parents. Well,

20:08

let's take another short break here and then

20:10

we'll talk some more. If you're just joining

20:12

us, my guest is Colton Whitehead. His new novel,

20:14

Crook Manifesto, is a sequel to his novel,

20:16

Harlem Shuffle. Harlem Shuffle was

20:19

set in Harlem in the 60s and

20:21

Crook Manifesto is set in Harlem in

20:23

the 70s. We'll be

20:25

right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross

20:27

and this is Fresh Air. The

20:31

following message comes from NPR sponsor, Saatva.

20:33

Founder and CEO, Ron Rudson, is on

20:36

a mission to bring quality sleep to

20:38

more people. Health and

20:40

wellness are so tied to quality sleep and

20:42

I'm trying to tell everyone, look, you have

20:44

to treat sleep like an activity because

20:47

I believe sleep is the most

20:49

important thing in your life. To

20:52

learn more, go

20:54

to saa.tva.com/npr. Good

20:58

for NPR and the following

21:00

message comes from Bombus. Bombus

21:02

makes absurdly soft socks, underwear

21:04

and t-shirts. And for every

21:06

item you purchase, Bombus donates

21:08

another to someone facing homelessness.

21:10

Get 20% off your first

21:12

purchase at bombus.com/npr and use

21:14

code NTR. This

21:17

message comes from NPR sponsor, Bells

21:19

Brewery. Bells have been brewing their

21:21

flagship two-hearted IPA with a devotion

21:23

to craft for nearly 30 years.

21:27

Standards for the ingredients that go

21:29

into the brew are ridiculously high.

21:31

In fact, when it comes to

21:33

selecting hops, there's no middle ground.

21:35

It's either graded in A plus

21:37

or, well, they're happy

21:40

to let the other breweries

21:42

use it. Bells two-hearted IPA,

21:44

Bells Brewery, Comstock, Michigan. Please

21:46

drink responsibly. Hey

21:50

there, it's Anne-Marie Baldonado with a

21:52

special preview of our latest Fresh

21:54

Air Plus bonus episode. Yeah,

21:57

I'm constantly looking for anachronistically.

22:00

Intriguing faces in the Canadian

22:02

director. Guy Madden had his biggest

22:04

movie premiere yet as this year's

22:07

Cannes Film Festival. We'll have somebody

22:09

to a few of his fresh air

22:11

and as he was only on fresh

22:13

our plan. Learn more and join for

22:16

yourself at plus side and be are

22:18

sad wards. Let's.

22:20

Get back to my interview with

22:22

Colson Whitehead. His latest novel, A

22:24

Crook Manifesto is a crime novel

22:26

set in Harlem and the years

22:29

nineteen seventy one to seventy six.

22:31

It's out in paperback. The Sweet:

22:33

the main character a carny on

22:35

the furniture store that specializes in

22:37

constable recliners and so says but

22:39

is also a sense laundering and

22:42

selling stolen goods like expensive jewelry

22:44

and he keeps getting pushed deeper

22:46

into crime is part of the

22:48

underworld that includes corrupt cops, black

22:50

revolutionaries, City politicians and professional criminals.

22:52

One of the characters on the

22:54

novel takes a job as the

22:56

security for a blaxploitation film. Quick

22:59

Manifesto is the second and White

23:01

has projected trilogy of Harlem novels.

23:03

The first Harlem A Shuffle was

23:05

set in the sixties. The third

23:07

will be set in the eighties.

23:10

Whitehead. One back to back pulitzers

23:12

for his novels The Underground Railroad and

23:14

The Nickel Boys. Your

23:16

novel ends in Nineteen Seventy Six

23:18

before hip hop makes it onto

23:21

the radio. So I'm assuming that

23:23

hip hop raffle make it into.

23:25

Your third book and your trilogy which will.

23:27

Be set in the eighties. Yeah

23:29

me neither are kept coming up with different. Keepers.

23:32

An adventurous for Carney and so the

23:34

first book or himself with the game

23:36

three different Stories Does books or three

23:39

different stories and I'm working on figure

23:41

out how he fits into the eighties.

23:43

Corny is a real square so we'll

23:45

see him. I yelled Africa Mamata at

23:48

the really assists wrong sound system extravaganzas.

23:51

By the still connection, you're writing this

23:54

book during. The. Pandemic. most

23:57

a new york and the streets were

23:59

empty that first year before we sort of opened

24:01

up again. And I was

24:03

writing about a time in New York history where

24:06

the city was under siege in

24:08

the 1970s. But at that time, you know,

24:11

artists are making new forms of

24:13

art, and that's hip-hop, that's

24:16

punk, early bits of

24:18

disco, New York salsa. And

24:20

so I felt like part of this tradition

24:22

of artists that work in the city. Things

24:25

are terrible outside, but maybe we can make something

24:27

new. And so hip-hop

24:29

is on the horizon. I don't think

24:31

Carney will be breakdancing, but

24:34

I'm sure maybe his son or

24:36

daughter might attend something. Is

24:38

that a motivation for you that things are really terrible

24:40

outside, but maybe you could make something new? I

24:44

got a second wind of work because I

24:46

couldn't go anywhere. And so usually I stopped

24:48

work around three or four. But

24:51

during the pandemic, I had a second shift from

24:53

four to seven. And it

24:56

was just a very productive time. I was

24:58

so enthralled with

25:01

the work and Carney's story. So

25:03

it kept me

25:05

going. And I think we all found different

25:08

ways to sustain ourselves during

25:10

the early part of this

25:12

pandemic. It was a way for me to make sense

25:14

of my day, I'm

25:17

with my family, we have

25:20

food, what else can sustain me? And

25:22

it was work. So

25:24

let's talk furniture for a minute. Since Ray Carney, your

25:26

main character, owns a furniture store. What's

25:28

some of the differences between the 60s furniture

25:30

that he sells in Harlem Shuffle and the

25:33

70s furniture that he sells in Crook Manifesto?

25:35

I think it's like kind of the cusp

25:37

between the 60s and 70s when fiberglass chairs

25:40

come in, those molded fiberglass

25:42

chairs that were often like orange.

25:45

Yeah, when we go to Martin

25:47

Green's apartment, the

25:49

hipster jewel broker, he's definitely

25:51

outfitted his place with cool

25:54

hi-fi stereo and the

25:56

kind of plastic furniture From

25:58

Europe. Honey, you know try

26:01

to sell it but it's not really

26:03

making a down with his Harlem clientele

26:05

and home shuffle. We get the standards.

26:07

Set. Aids, sleek lines

26:09

in the couches, a

26:12

boomerang coffee tables. There's

26:14

this idea of. sixties.

26:18

Optimism New Camelot, my things and

26:20

by the new are the furniture.

26:22

In the seventies we get is

26:24

more to Reebok. c. Plus.

26:26

Designs on Earth Colors on

26:29

sir we remember that brown

26:31

mustard, dark green couches. The

26:34

carpeting gets difference the otherwise

26:36

the conversation tents. In

26:40

our living rooms or some people living rooms. At

26:42

Organization Pet. Yes it's

26:45

like else was hurt as I'm

26:47

a sunken them room. And.

26:49

And sitting arranged race or of

26:51

on the floor ah. You.

26:53

Might have a fondue pot on that on

26:55

the coffee table in the center. It

26:59

was a thing, apparently. It's

27:02

a conservative oven and our house, but

27:04

I'm the conversation take with a thing.

27:07

Okay, so and did you start collecting seventies

27:09

furniture to read the book? Like where do

27:12

you go to see it Or Dejesus let

27:14

them Books. Sometimes he I

27:16

try to get into character and

27:19

sometimes I'm faking it or duffy.

27:21

My affinity is with yesterday's and

27:23

sixty's midcentury modern furniture. I did

27:26

not go out and. Populate.

27:29

My home with. Boxy,

27:32

Or it's own furniture. But.

27:35

I love looking at the at the catalogues

27:37

in A and I hopefully recreate of them.

27:40

faithfully in the books in

27:42

a see these people and

27:44

with white cable turtlenecks drinking

27:46

hot chocolate on this very

27:48

price of fuzzy touts she

27:50

very warm and inviting and

27:52

i'm ah even at the

27:54

streets in harlem are going

27:56

sort of crazy isn't come

27:58

into these furniture and buy,

28:02

assemble your cozy oasis. Well,

28:06

let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining

28:08

us, my guest is Colson Whitehead. His new

28:10

novel is called Crook Manifesto. We'll be right

28:12

back. This is Fresh Air. I'm

28:15

Rachel Martin. After hosting Morning Edition for

28:17

years, I know that the news can wear

28:19

you this. So we made

28:21

a new podcast called Wild Card. We're

28:23

a special deck of cards and a

28:26

whole bunch of fascinating guests. Help us

28:28

sort out what makes life meaningful. It's

28:30

part game show, part existential deep dive,

28:32

and it is seriously fun. Join me

28:35

on Wild Card, wherever you get your

28:37

podcasts, only from NPR. A

28:39

former president found guilty while running for reelection.

28:41

For a story this big, one podcast is

28:43

not enough. Here at NPR, we've got you

28:45

covered from every angle. You can get the

28:47

news as it happens and legal analysis on

28:50

the podcast Trump's Trials. And for all the

28:52

latest on what it means for the 2024

28:55

election, head on over to the NPR

28:57

Politics Podcast. Find Trump's Trials and the

28:59

NPR Politics Podcast, wherever you get your

29:02

podcasts. NPR Plus is a

29:04

new way to support public media and

29:06

get more from your favorite NPR podcasts

29:08

like Fresh Air. Sometimes I'll actually preface

29:10

the question with, if it makes you

29:13

too uncomfortable to talk about, if it's

29:15

too personal, just tell me. Here's the

29:17

question. For behind the scenes content, bonus

29:19

episodes, and more, sign up at plus.NPR.org.

29:24

Since the Panthers and the Black Liberation

29:26

Army figure into your novel,

29:29

what was your introduction to them?

29:32

Yeah, I mean, I think probably in a

29:35

very cheesy way, like on bad TV

29:38

shows, like Good Times or The

29:41

White Shadow, I think, you know,

29:43

I was coming of age in the late 70s and

29:46

consuming TV and movies. And

29:49

that was like, you know, plenty

29:52

of time for the revolutionary

29:54

fervor, black

29:56

national thought of late 60s, early 70s

29:58

to trickle into you know, pop culture.

30:01

So it's somebody on a sitcom and

30:03

their daishiki-clad uncle,

30:05

who's very militant, and

30:08

walking into this very sort of bourgeois household.

30:11

So it's just to pop culture. And

30:14

obviously, the history

30:16

of the Black Panther Party was not being taught

30:18

in my high school, I think I assume most

30:21

high schools. And now it's,

30:23

you know, I think illegal to teach

30:25

black history in certain states

30:27

and cities. So it wasn't

30:29

a college I, you know, got sort of more grounding on some

30:32

of the real arguments and what different aspects of

30:34

the civil rights movement actually meant and

30:36

what they did. Was your family

30:38

involved in any aspect of the civil

30:41

rights or post civil

30:43

rights era? Yeah,

30:45

I love hearing the story

30:48

about my mom and dad going to

30:50

the march on Washington. They weren't

30:53

activists, they were people

30:55

trying to raise their family in incredibly racist

30:58

country, and finding their

31:01

own way of changing things, changing the status

31:03

quo, which was, you know, I think family

31:05

and their business. So

31:08

growing up seeing the

31:10

Panthers, as described

31:13

in sitcoms, or the White Shadow,

31:16

did you not take them seriously? Or

31:18

did they seem foolish

31:20

because of their portrayal on sitcoms?

31:22

Was that your first impression? Well, no, I think

31:25

there's this, you know, they were holy. The rift

31:28

that I describe in Harlem shuffle between

31:30

people who are more revolutionary oriented

31:33

versus reformist was not

31:35

part of that sort of pop cultural depictions.

31:38

But in the way that my

31:40

parents would talk about that time, my friends' parents,

31:42

it was very serious,

31:44

it was deadly serious, no

31:46

matter what you thought

31:48

they ended up achieving, or

31:51

what their legacy was in 1982, 1984, and 1985. They were,

31:53

you know, these holy warriors. You

31:58

said in an interview that you retreated

32:00

into pop culture in part to

32:03

escape your father's alcohol-fueled rages.

32:06

Can you talk about that a little bit? Is that too personal?

32:10

It is a bit personal, but

32:13

I think being able to close my

32:15

door and retreat into these imaginary worlds,

32:17

whether I was seven years old or

32:19

eight years old, and

32:22

think about what the war against the empire

32:24

would be like if I was in it, or

32:27

Star Trek, or Spider-Man,

32:30

or even trying to outrun

32:33

zombies and I living dead. I think

32:36

the imaginary worlds of all these different

32:38

writers I adored provided

32:42

escape, the same way that people

32:45

have always found

32:49

release and escape, and

32:54

nurturing in storytelling

32:56

and fantasy. One

32:59

of your novels, Sag Harbor, is inspired

33:01

by the summers you spent in Sag

33:03

Harbor. Can you describe Sag Harbor and

33:05

its significance in your life? Sag

33:09

Harbor is a town on the east end of Long

33:11

Island, sort

33:14

of better known as the Hamptons. There's

33:17

a town in that Hampton's constellation called

33:19

Sag Harbor is an old whaling town.

33:22

There's a longstanding black

33:25

and Native American neighborhood about

33:27

a few quarters of a

33:29

mile outside town. Black folks

33:32

from New Jersey and New

33:34

York started vacationing there in the

33:36

30s and 40s. This

33:38

little community sprouted it up by

33:40

word of mouth. My family started

33:42

going there in the 40s. I spent

33:45

all my summers there until I went

33:47

to college. I was this neat

33:50

little community

33:53

nestled in this improbable place.

33:56

There are other places like it. I hear people

33:59

talk about reminded them of their

34:01

childhood in Michigan, another sort of black

34:03

town, black beach

34:06

community, or in Baltimore.

34:08

And I had to

34:10

sort of shake up my writing

34:12

career. I had to find a new way of telling

34:14

stories. And so I picked this

34:17

really autobiographical story to tell

34:19

about growing up in the 1980s and

34:23

changed how I

34:25

approached characters and writing. So it's not only

34:28

a place that sort of formed

34:30

my identity in many different ways, but also

34:32

who I am as a writer in

34:35

the last 15 years. And

34:37

in the novel, the main character has a brother who's,

34:39

I don't know, like 10 months

34:41

apart in age, something like that.

34:44

And so it's as if they were twins when

34:47

they're very young and they go their separate ways.

34:49

Did you have a sibling who was that close

34:51

in age to you? Yeah, my

34:53

brother who passed away

34:55

a couple of years ago. I'm sorry to hear that. We

34:58

were 10 months apart and everyone thought

35:00

that we were twins because we were a

35:03

little unit, sort of inseparable. And

35:07

part of the book is capturing the

35:09

beauty of that twin hood. And then

35:12

also the separation that happened when we

35:14

became teenagers and we had to sort

35:16

of find our different paths in

35:18

high school and in the world. So

35:20

I'm right about that time, but also a time in

35:23

my life that was very,

35:25

very formative. Did

35:28

you like having somebody, like having a brother who was so

35:30

close in age to you that people thought you were twins?

35:34

You know, now, yeah, we sort

35:36

of, we broke up in

35:39

high school, but it was a very,

35:41

very special thing. You know,

35:43

we did everything together, whether it

35:45

was reading Fangoria magazine and

35:48

reading out part

35:51

of John Carpenter's interview about the escape

35:53

from New York and the fog or

35:55

in the movie Halloween Or

35:57

renting David Cronenberg movies. By

36:00

the harmful from Crazy Eddie's which was

36:03

an electronic store and the in New

36:05

York City. so yes I mean it

36:07

was yeah I hope I got I

36:10

did some justice and getting him and

36:12

into the books and and selling our

36:14

story. Was your breath of

36:17

acrimonious? Yeah, I

36:19

mean it was just it

36:21

was it. You know, in

36:23

high school I think I'm

36:25

the burden of being a

36:27

a semi respectable T C

36:29

major. Was. A

36:31

bit much for us in I think we we each had

36:33

to find out around. Different. Way of being

36:36

out in the world. So I'm no, no,

36:38

we are a close bond. never as close

36:40

as we were before the high stakes game

36:42

a few but he started. Did

36:45

your brother's death make you think about your

36:47

own mortality? I'm.

36:51

My brother yo was and us or a

36:53

bad health for for many years. And.

36:57

Deftly and the Nickel Boys

36:59

and and home Cephalon is

37:01

trying to figure out. That.

37:05

Relationship. To.

37:07

Put those novels have young.

37:11

Black. Men who have are very

37:13

close and ago in different directions.

37:15

One person makes an hour when

37:18

person. Does not make

37:20

it out when person finds a way

37:22

the world and and one than any

37:24

other doesn't And so even though those

37:26

books aren't necessarily see mammoth area or

37:28

by the apple element in those to

37:30

call relationships in I was doubly trying

37:32

to figure out ah they got me

37:35

to go my brother and how we

37:37

ended up. Splitting. Apart

37:39

after being twins. So

37:41

well we've been talking about the seventies. Has your

37:43

head really been in the eighties As you working

37:45

on that new novel now. I'm

37:49

trying to figure out what of the

37:51

eighties will work for. Carney.

37:53

And his gang. So. New

37:56

York has come out of a fiscal

37:58

crisis. Ah, Wall Street's booming again. and

38:01

we're getting that boom

38:04

and bust action

38:06

in terms of the city's fortune and

38:08

Carney's fortune mirroring each other. So what

38:11

do I use from the glitzy 80s?

38:14

Donald Trump? No. I'm not going to be

38:16

foul on my book with Donald

38:18

Trump. He's

38:21

not going to read it. If he's not in it, he's not going

38:23

to read it. You've just lost one reader. So

38:30

yeah, so is New York in 1981 fruitful territory? 1984, 1986, 87. New

38:32

York does find its footing financially.

38:40

And then in the

38:43

late 80s, the age crisis, the crack

38:45

epidemic is sort of waiting to

38:48

spoil the party again. And that's

38:51

definitely the city I know. It's going through

38:56

a bad period, being laid

38:58

low, and then trying to figure out how to

39:00

come back from it. So I'm trying to figure

39:02

out what moments in the 80s

39:04

New York will serve the story and also are interesting to me.

39:06

I sort of

39:09

found my identity in alternative music,

39:12

college radio, as we used to

39:14

call it. Carney

39:16

is probably not hanging out with CBGBs. He's

39:18

probably not doing the things I used to

39:20

do. So I have to figure out what

39:22

a 50-something Carney is going

39:25

to seek out and

39:27

interact with. Just one more

39:29

thing. I know

39:31

that you've said that when

39:33

you walk around outside, you often

39:35

have like an expressionless face or

39:38

you look sad because you're thinking. And

39:40

I think people ask you like what's wrong? Sure.

39:44

Yeah. That always just happened

39:46

to me when I was growing up. People would come up

39:48

and say, oh, honey, what's wrong? Are

39:51

you lost? What's your reaction when

39:53

people do that to you? Do they still?

39:57

Yeah. I'd say, you know, I was thinking about death

39:59

or something. I

40:02

wish I'd thought of that. I'll

40:06

remember that the next time if somebody does that to

40:09

me. Yeah, there you go. Colson,

40:11

thank you so much. Sure, sure. Take

40:13

care. Thanks a lot.

40:15

Colson Whitehead's latest novel, Crook Manifesto, has

40:17

just been published in paperback. We spoke

40:20

last summer when it was first published.

40:22

After we take a short break, rock

40:25

critic Ken Tucker will review Blackgrass, the

40:27

new recording by Jerry Williams, the R&B

40:29

soul and funk artist who performs under

40:32

the name Swamp Dog. Blackgrass

40:34

is a country album. Ken says it's one

40:36

of the best country albums of the year.

40:39

This is fresh air. On

40:41

this week's episode of Wild Card,

40:44

musician and producer Jack Antonoff says

40:46

growing older can help soften our

40:48

insecurities. I love when you get

40:50

to that point, but some of the things that bother you

40:52

about yourself or you become almost like bored and angry about

40:54

it. I'm Rachel

40:57

Martin. Listen to NPR's new podcast,

40:59

Wild Card, the game where cards control

41:01

the conversation. When

41:05

the economic news gets to be a bit

41:07

much. Listen to the indicator

41:09

from Planet Money. We're here for you,

41:11

like your friends, trying to figure out

41:13

all the most confusing parts. One

41:16

story, one idea every day, all

41:18

in 10 minutes or less. The

41:20

indicator from Planet Money, your friendly

41:23

economic sidekick. From NPR. Bridgerton

41:26

is back and the Netflix series

41:28

is as gossipy and over the

41:30

top as ever. I love the

41:32

dialogue as ridiculous as it is

41:34

sometimes. Same. So

41:36

ridiculous. We're talking about the

41:38

romance and the clothes and the nudity

41:41

and obviously the queen's hair. Listen

41:43

to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from NPR. Jerry

41:49

Williams Jr. began his career in

41:51

the 1960s, writing songs and producing

41:53

acts such as Patti LaBelle and

41:56

Gene Pitney. In 1970,

41:58

he released an explosive. wildly

42:00

unique album called Total Destruction

42:02

to Your Mind and

42:04

started performing under the name Swamp Dog.

42:07

Now, more than 20 albums later,

42:09

at the age of 81, he's

42:11

just released a country album called

42:13

Blackgrass, the title's appointed joke about

42:15

a black artist recording bluegrass music.

42:18

Rock critic Ken Tucker says that this is

42:20

the work of an artist who knows no

42:22

musical boundaries. Swamp Dog

42:24

begins his new album with

42:28

Mess Under That

42:31

Dress, a bluegrass rave-up

42:53

showcasing banjo, fiddle, and

42:55

mandolin. The album

42:58

is called Blackgrass and carries the

43:00

subtitle From West Virginia to 125th

43:02

Street, that is, from the south

43:05

to the north, from the country to

43:07

the city, Swamp Dog gets around. Arriving

43:10

just a couple of months after

43:12

Beyonce's Cowboy Carter reopens some territory

43:14

for black artists reclaiming country music,

43:17

so does Swamp Dog demonstrate that

43:19

in his long career in R&B,

43:21

soul, and funk, country is

43:23

another road he's traveled. They

44:00

ain't gonna tell you

44:02

twice If you want to live

44:04

that life Become

44:07

an ugly man's wife That's

44:13

Ugly Man's Wife, a funny country ramble

44:16

that's all the more amusing if you

44:18

also hear it as an answer record

44:20

to Jimmy Soul's 1963 number one hit,

44:22

If You Want to Be Happy, with

44:24

its chorus of, Get an Ugly Girl to Marry

44:27

You. Like Mess

44:29

Under That Dress, Ugly Man's Wife

44:31

is so lively you might not

44:33

even notice the delightfully lewd double

44:35

entendres sprinkled throughout the lyrics. Swamp

44:38

Dog has always been a raucous body

44:40

artist, but one who's

44:42

also capable of beautiful, sincere sadness

44:45

as he demonstrates here on Songs

44:47

to Sing. If songs

44:50

to sing I have

44:52

a choice Oh,

44:58

and the whole world, if

45:01

you're my boy I'll

45:05

sing about a people that

45:09

want to be free I'll

45:14

sing about a generation that'll

45:18

help it to be I'll

45:23

sing about a change that's

45:27

just about to come I'll

45:32

sing about equality for

45:36

everyone Oh, and the whole

45:38

world, if you're my boy I'll sing about equality for everyone

45:43

Oh, and the whole world, if you're my boy I'll

45:45

sing about equality for everyone up

46:00

industry expectations of what his music

46:02

ought to sound like. As

46:05

he said recently, this is my way of

46:07

letting people know that I'm not just a soul

46:09

singer or whatever they think I am. I'm

46:11

so much more. Indeed

46:13

he is. Here's his

46:15

cover of a song by Floyd Tillman,

46:18

one of the great honky-tonk songwriters of

46:20

all time, author of classic tunes such

46:22

as Slippin' Around and Drivin' Nails in

46:24

My Coffin. Swamp

46:27

Dog finds a kindred spirit in

46:29

Tillman's Gotta Have My Baby Back.

46:57

Can't sleep, can't

47:01

eat, because

47:04

I've lost my sweet

47:08

baby sweet. I

47:10

just gotta, I just

47:13

gotta, gotta have

47:15

my baby back.

47:28

There's a lot of range on this

47:30

album including a track called Murder Ballad,

47:32

a spoken word composition about a serial

47:35

killer sung in the first person with

47:37

chilling conviction. Blackgrass

47:40

features the musicianship of bluegrass stars

47:42

such as Nome Pecalney on Banjo

47:44

and Sierra Hull on Mandolin. Singers

47:47

Margot Price and Jenny Lewis each sing on

47:50

a couple of songs. I

48:00

gave you my heart. You

48:14

gave me my love. You

48:16

gave me your love. You

48:21

gave me your love.

48:23

You gave me your

48:26

love. You

48:28

gave me your love. This album

48:31

is released on Oldboy Records, founded by

48:33

John Prine, a good friend of Jerry

48:35

Williams, and who appeared on

48:37

Swamp Dog's 2020 album Sorry You Couldn't

48:39

Make It. In

48:41

a different world, the 81-year-old Swamp

48:43

Dog would be getting Lifetime Achievement

48:45

Awards and going viral on TikTok

48:47

videos with people dancing to catchy

48:49

snippets of his music. At

48:52

the very least, let's now acknowledge that he's

48:54

made one of the best country albums of

48:56

the year. Ken Tucker

48:59

reviewed Swamp Dog's new album

49:01

called Blackgrass. Tomorrow on

49:03

Fresh Air, we'll talk with Ronan Farrow about

49:05

how his reporting on the MeToo movement led

49:08

to the criminal case against Donald Trump. Farrow

49:11

unearthed details of the National

49:13

Enquirer's practice of paying for

49:15

damaging stories about Trump and

49:17

then burying those stories. That

49:20

gave prosecutors a felony case against Trump.

49:23

I hope you'll join us. Our

49:25

co-host is Tanya Moseley. I'm Terry Gray.

49:49

Thanks for watching. I'd

50:00

love to keep you home. What

50:04

do you say? Shuffle

50:30

is your backstage pass to Northeast

50:32

Ohio's independent music scene. The

50:34

region birds Devo and the Black Keys, and

50:36

the area is still home to artists making

50:39

music in a mexic mix of genres. I'm

50:42

your host, Amanda Rabinowitz. Discover

50:44

independent music. Be inspired by the

50:46

personal stories. Listen to the

50:48

Shuffle podcast from the NPR Network and

50:50

IdeaStream Public Media. Do you wish

50:52

stories could unfold over three hours rather

50:54

than three minutes? Are you tired

50:56

of doomscrolling, trying to find

50:59

humanity, or maybe a deeper understanding of

51:01

why the world is the way it

51:03

is? Listen to Embedded,

51:06

NPR's original documentary series. Find

51:09

us wherever you get your podcasts.