20:00

debate that Donald Trump has

20:02

participated in since 2016, he

20:04

doesn't really listen to these rules, right? He

20:07

comes on stage and he's ready to

20:09

brawl, even in debates where he's more

20:12

controlled. And so we'll see

20:14

how this plays out. But

20:16

CNN has said that they're going to do everything

20:18

they can to make this a civil conversation. And

20:21

the muted microphones, I think, is one of the

20:23

big X factors of this debate. Our

20:26

guest today is Shane Goldmacher, a

20:28

correspondent with The New York Times

20:30

covering the presidential campaign. We'll

20:33

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yourself at whyy.org/fresh

22:35

air. I

22:38

think I heard someone say, tonight will

22:40

be a test of Biden's ability to

22:42

show stamina, and for Trump, it will

22:44

be a test of whether he can

22:46

control himself. On

22:48

those two points, how

22:50

have the two been preparing themselves in

22:52

that regard? I think

22:54

the preparations that they've undergone have been

22:57

about as different as their visions

22:59

for the country. Joe Biden is

23:01

and has been holed

23:03

up at Camp David for basically

23:06

a week with many of his top

23:08

advisors heading into the debate, rehearsing,

23:11

practicing, and eventually

23:13

doing full-blown mock sessions with one

23:15

of his attorneys, Bob Bauer, who

23:17

played Trump four years ago, playing

23:19

Trump again. In real

23:21

practices, basically, they want to rehearse

23:24

what it will be like to

23:26

face Donald Trump, what it will

23:28

feel like to have a debate for

23:30

90 minutes, and rehearse every

23:32

possible question. You know, I've

23:34

talked to people who've done these preparations before for

23:36

Biden and for others, and they say,

23:38

look, you can start to break this down. It's

23:41

90 minutes, and it's about five

23:43

minutes per topic, per question. There's

23:45

a certain number of questions you know that they're

23:48

going to ask, and you can prepare

23:50

for most of them, right? There will be a question

23:53

about January 6th and

23:56

its fallout, and potentially the issues

23:58

around pardons. There will be questions

24:00

about the economy and inflation. There'll

24:02

be questions about Israel. There'll be

24:04

questions about Ukraine. There'll be questions

24:06

about immigration and the border. And

24:08

so on each of those topics, the Biden

24:11

team has, and I don't know the specific

24:13

way they've prepared for specific topics, but you

24:15

can you can assess that they will

24:17

have prepared a set of answers and

24:19

how to prepare for them. And

24:21

what are the best things to focus on? Now

24:24

Trump has been preparing too. He has

24:27

actually made reference to watching videos of

24:29

the past debates. And he's been engaging

24:31

in more what his team likes to

24:34

call policy discussions with senior advisors, with

24:36

senators like Marco Rubio and J.D. Vance,

24:38

who have been on his potential vice

24:40

presidential pick lists. He's been

24:43

practicing lines and rehearsing,

24:47

reviewing records of what he did as president

24:49

and what Joe Biden did as president and

24:51

how to frame those things up. But it's

24:53

a less structured setup than Joe

24:56

Biden. Trump has forever avoided

24:58

the kind of traditional let's set up two

25:01

podiums and have the lights look like the

25:03

stage will look. He prefers

25:05

to sit around and discuss these topics in sort

25:07

of a brainstorm session. And he has been doing

25:09

a fair amount of that. And

25:12

he also does, you know, his team likes to say

25:14

he does rallies and events. And

25:17

the thing about Donald Trump is nothing

25:19

that he's preparing for really stays hidden for

25:22

very long. So if you want a preview

25:24

of what Donald Trump's going to say, it's

25:26

pretty informative to watch his rally in Philadelphia

25:28

last week. It's informative to watch his interviews

25:30

in recent days. You know, he

25:32

doesn't prepare for a line and not use it.

25:35

Biden has been preparing for these lines and

25:37

notably been out of the public eye. So

25:39

there's a guarantee he won't say

25:41

it out loud until the debate comes. Trump,

25:44

on the other hand, has been more more open in the last

25:46

few days. And you can begin to glean some of the

25:48

things that they want to talk about and

25:51

how they want to talk about them. Shane,

25:54

how much of Trump's criminal record do

25:56

you expect Biden to bring up or

25:59

the moderate? to bring up

26:01

tonight. I can't imagine it's

26:03

not one of the earlier

26:05

topics in this debate, both

26:07

because of how historic it

26:09

is that Donald Trump is

26:12

facing a sentencing days before

26:14

he formally becomes the nominee next

26:16

month, but also because

26:18

it's a relevant fact for

26:20

voters. And in fact,

26:22

I think both candidates in some ways

26:25

want to talk about it, but for

26:27

months, the Biden campaign had been virtually

26:29

silent on the legal

26:31

challenges around Donald Trump because Donald

26:34

Trump had called these political prosecutions,

26:36

because he had accused without any

26:38

evidence Joe Biden of being behind

26:40

the Manhattan district attorney indictment

26:43

and trial. The Biden

26:45

campaign didn't want to fuel those by commenting on it,

26:48

but that all changed pretty dramatically

26:51

shortly after the verdict came in. The

26:54

Biden campaign has now been running a television ad

26:56

across the country, talking about

26:58

how Trump is a convicted

27:00

felon. The name of the

27:02

ad itself, I think, is actually pretty revealing. They

27:04

call the ad character matters. They

27:06

want to use this conviction not just

27:09

to say that Donald Trump is

27:12

not a good person and will be

27:14

a bad president. They want to use

27:16

the conviction to make a broader argument

27:18

that Donald Trump is running

27:20

for president for himself, to protect

27:22

himself from his own legal jeopardy,

27:25

and that Joe Biden is running for

27:27

president for the broader public. That's

27:30

one of the key messages that the

27:32

Biden campaign has centered on ahead of this

27:34

debate. And for Trump,

27:37

he wants to use both his

27:39

conviction and the other cases to

27:41

argue that the

27:43

Democrats writ large have weaponized

27:46

the legal system against him. The

27:50

only reason he's facing these charges in Georgia and

27:52

New York are because he's running for president

27:54

and that they had wanted to confine him

27:56

in court during the trial, and

27:58

they want to slow him down in this case. race. Again,

28:01

there is no evidence that the president

28:03

and the White House have had any

28:05

involvement in the cases in Georgia and

28:07

New York, or even in the special

28:09

counsel's case, which is part of the

28:11

attorney general's office, but an independent part.

28:15

But that is a central argument that Trump has

28:17

made, and it has resonated for many, many Republicans,

28:19

as you saw from those campaign

28:21

contributions that flooded in. People

28:23

believe that Donald Trump is

28:25

being targeted. His supporters believe

28:27

that he's being targeted for

28:29

political reasons. You

28:32

know, you mentioned how Donald Trump was

28:34

in Detroit really trying to

28:36

gain support from black voters in particular.

28:39

And we know in the last election

28:41

cycle, there was this big emphasis on

28:43

reaching out to nonwhite voters. I

28:46

mean, some have said to a fault

28:48

because there seemed to be an overemphasis

28:50

on identity versus issues that everyone cares

28:52

about, like inflation and the cost of

28:54

living. What are you

28:56

seeing this time around, particularly with

28:59

Biden? And how do the candidates

29:01

actually differ? How do their approaches

29:04

to nonwhite voters, not just black

29:06

voters, but also Latina voters, how

29:09

do their approaches differ? I

29:11

think the approaches are very different. You

29:14

can decide whether you think that this is a strength

29:17

or a weakness for the

29:19

president heading into this election. But

29:21

the Biden campaign sees their path

29:23

to victory as

29:25

bringing back people who have

29:27

historically voted for Democrats. That's

29:30

younger voters. That's

29:32

black voters. It's Latina voters, all

29:34

of whom have questions about

29:36

the president or frustrations about the direction of

29:38

the country. And so they've

29:40

gone about pretty methodically

29:43

trying to find ways to reach and appeal

29:45

to those voters and to sell them either

29:47

on Biden's record or to scare them

29:49

about what a second Trump term would

29:51

be. Trump is

29:53

sort of campaigning for all

29:55

of these folks in a way that he often

29:58

does, which is he talks about his polling. and

30:01

then tries to make it a reality.

30:03

He talks about, I'm winning the most

30:05

African-American votes in a history, and

30:07

there are polls that suggest that

30:10

he has made inroads, but there

30:12

hasn't been the same kind of

30:14

blocking and tackling and messaging at

30:16

a community level. Instead, it's

30:18

sort of an attempt to win

30:20

over voters by

30:22

telling them that he's winning them over, by

30:25

showing up in the communities and surrounding himself

30:27

by people who are from those

30:29

communities, by going to the Bronx and

30:31

having a black rapper come up on

30:33

stage, by traveling to Philadelphia and being

30:35

accompanied by people from the community that

30:37

he's trying to make an appeal to.

30:41

What he's not necessarily done is

30:43

design a specific message

30:45

for those communities. He's making the

30:48

argument that he

30:50

is better for them because of who he is. I

30:53

wanna get into the strategy for both

30:55

of them for tonight, but CNN is

30:57

also not gonna fact check, right? What

30:59

is the reasoning behind that? You

31:02

know, it's not clear what they're going to do.

31:04

Their political director said to one of

31:06

my colleagues at the New York Times this week that

31:09

a live debate isn't an ideal

31:11

place for fact checking. We

31:13

will see, I think it's really one

31:15

of the unanswered questions, and you've seen

31:17

both the Trump and the Biden team

31:19

publicly and privately lobbying for what they

31:22

want. The Trump team's been pretty clear.

31:24

They wanna hands-off approach from

31:26

the CNN moderators.

31:28

And in fact, they've been saying pretty publicly that

31:31

they think that this debate they're participating, but as

31:34

Trump has accused many things of, of

31:36

being rigged, that it's a three to

31:38

one contest because he accuses these veteran

31:40

journalists of being not neutral

31:43

parties, even though he's agreed to this debate. On

31:46

the flip side, you know, Joe Biden

31:48

has said pretty explicitly, in fact, he said

31:50

in one of his debates four years ago,

31:52

he can't spend all his time fact checking

31:55

what Donald Trump says, because it will prevent

31:57

him from delivering his own message. And so

31:59

the Biden team, and the president have in

32:01

the past hoped that the moderators

32:04

will step in and correct something

32:06

that's incorrect. For instance, when they have

32:08

a debate about what happened in 2020,

32:12

the Biden operation is certainly hopeful that

32:15

the moderators will present the outcome as

32:17

not in doubt, despite the fact that

32:19

Trump has continued to raise questions about

32:21

whether he actually lost. And

32:24

it remains to be seen how CNN exactly

32:26

will handle this. But

32:28

it is definitely one of the questions in

32:30

the storylines to watch going into the evening

32:32

is what role do the moderators play in

32:35

policing the truth on the debate stage? Let's

32:38

take a short break. If you're just joining

32:40

us, my guest is Shane Goldmacher, correspondent with

32:42

the New York Times covering the presidential campaign.

32:45

We'll continue our conversation after a short break.

32:48

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for free. Go to warbyparker.com/covered. Age

34:01

is also a factor that we

34:03

keep hearing time and time around. Perception

34:05

and their

34:07

competence as well as their character

34:10

is going to be something that

34:12

everyone is watching tonight. Biden

34:14

and Trump are the oldest candidates to ever compete

34:16

in a presidential race. What

34:19

additional things will you be looking out for that

34:21

we haven't talked about? I mean

34:23

I think that the overarching question

34:26

of the debate is how

34:28

does Joe Biden perform. People

34:31

have a pretty good sense of who

34:33

both these candidates are. They have a pretty good

34:35

sense of how they've been as president. What

34:38

voters haven't seen is Joe Biden

34:40

on stage for 90 minutes. Most

34:42

people see snippets of the president. Maybe

34:45

they tuned into the State of the Union

34:47

and they saw a pretty energetic president and

34:49

you got pretty positive reviews. This

34:51

is a very different format. And

34:54

look, the age question is

34:57

just an overarching one for this race.

35:00

It's one of those rare issues that cuts

35:02

across the parties that a broad

35:04

swath of Democrats also think that

35:06

Joe Biden is too old to

35:09

be president. And the question is,

35:11

can he bring them back into the

35:13

fold and quiet their

35:15

concerns or make them more

35:17

concerned about Donald Trump than they are about his

35:19

age? A win for Joe Biden

35:22

on the age question is voters looking at

35:24

both candidates and saying either of these two

35:26

guys would be the oldest president in American

35:28

history. And that's true. But

35:31

polling for months and months have

35:33

showed that the age question has

35:35

reverberated almost exclusively around the current

35:38

president and that the clips

35:40

of him walking and the clips of him

35:42

stumbling have been so aggressively circulated

35:45

and smartly circulated among

35:47

Republicans to

35:50

shape the image of this old

35:52

man who's serving as president. And

35:54

look, the reality is I rewatched the

35:57

debates from 2020. Joe Biden looks

35:59

older. I rewatched his announcement when

36:01

he announced in 2024 from

36:04

his announcement when he ran in 2020. He

36:07

looks older. The truth is

36:09

the presidency tends to age almost everyone.

36:11

And he's already the oldest president in

36:13

American history. It

36:16

also is an opportunity for Joe Biden.

36:18

It's an opportunity that if he stands for 90

36:20

minutes and holds

36:22

his own and presents himself as

36:24

a robust leader, he

36:27

could quiet some of those concerns. But

36:29

right now, about 70% of the country

36:33

think that Joe Biden's too old. And

36:35

that's a big chunk of people who think you're too

36:37

old that you're gonna need to win over and still

36:39

vote for you to win in November.

36:43

And I think that that's why this debate is so important.

36:46

This is one of the best opportunities

36:48

he has to put an image of

36:50

himself for all of those

36:52

voters that he isn't too old, but that he's

36:54

more than capable of doing the job. The

36:57

New York Times actually ran this feature not

37:00

too long ago about how

37:03

these clips of Biden on social

37:05

media looking disoriented or frail were

37:07

taken out of context. So

37:09

that's a piece of news reporting that takes a

37:11

look at it. But when we

37:13

talk about what's already, if the horse has

37:16

already left the barn, how much does that

37:18

even impact the way that people perceive it

37:20

now that it's already out there? Yeah,

37:23

I mean, I think that there's no question that

37:26

manipulatively edited clips are

37:29

circulated to make Joe Biden look worse

37:32

on a regular basis. It's

37:35

also true that

37:37

there are real clips that show

37:39

Joe Biden looking older. And

37:41

there was a moment last year when he tripped

37:44

on a stage over a sandbag that really

37:47

drew widespread attention. And I

37:49

heard from voters across the country, they

37:51

had seen this and it raised concerns for

37:53

them. There's

37:55

issues around, one

37:58

of the videos that that story, and the story

38:00

included was from his trip to Europe and whether

38:03

he was looking at a skydiver or not. And

38:05

it does look like he's just meandering off, but

38:07

he's actually going and greeting one of the people

38:09

who just did skydiving.

38:11

And the angle of that particular

38:13

shot didn't show it and it looks like Joe

38:15

Biden is meandering. I think it's

38:18

a fine line between what is perception and

38:20

reality in terms of these things. And

38:23

yes, I think that in a moment

38:25

where we all are flipping and scrolling

38:27

and swiping through so much content, so

38:29

much of the time, that those short

38:32

clips, they do stick and people do

38:34

see them and they are

38:36

important. And there's a reason that they circulate

38:38

them in that way. There are also

38:40

clips of Donald Trump misspeaking.

38:43

And you mentioned this earlier, right? He

38:45

gives long meandering, hard to follow answers.

38:47

I've sat through his rallies and sort

38:49

of lost track of what he's talking

38:51

about for a few minutes at a

38:53

time. And he

38:56

is not presenting everything in the

38:58

most sharp and coherent and cohesive way.

39:01

That said, voters don't seem to

39:03

perceive him in the

39:05

same way they perceive Joe Biden around the issue

39:07

of age. And

39:10

the Biden campaign itself, while that's

39:12

been a frustration, that's not how they've

39:15

attacked Trump either. They've attacked

39:17

Trump on policies

39:19

that he snapped after the

39:21

2020 election, that

39:24

his second term would be far more

39:26

radical than his first term was, that

39:28

he threatens democracy itself, that he wouldn't

39:30

accept the outcome of a future election, that

39:32

he would be a dictator on

39:35

day one, which is something that Trump has said

39:37

about how he would take his approach to

39:39

the border and some other issues. So

39:41

the Biden campaign itself has, through their

39:44

actions showed, their focus

39:46

is on what Trump would do should

39:49

he win election. And I think

39:51

that the Trump campaign is really focused on

39:53

who Joe Biden would be and raising questions

39:55

about the president himself and

39:58

his capabilities. Shane Goh. Thank

40:00

you so much. Thanks for having me. Shane

40:04

Goldmacher is a correspondent with the New York Times,

40:06

covering the presidential campaign. Coming

40:09

up, rock critic Ken Tucker revisits Steely

40:11

Dan's 1974 album, Pretzel

40:14

Logic, on its 50th anniversary.

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at jackson.com. Jackson is

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short for Jackson Financial Incorporated. Jackson

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National Life Insurance Company, Lansing. Rock

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critic Ken Tucker has noticed that

41:21

there are a number of significant

41:23

albums that are celebrating their 50th

41:25

anniversary. And he's decided to devote

41:27

a summer series to celebrating a wide

41:30

variety of them. First up

41:32

is Steely Dan's Pretzel Logic. Released

41:34

in 1974, it was the band's third album, one

41:38

that yielded a big hit single, Ricky

41:41

Don't Lose That Number. For

41:43

reasons he's about to explain, Ken

41:45

thinks Pretzel Logic is Steely Dan's best

41:47

album. Here's their song, Any

41:50

Major Dude Will Tell You. ["Any

41:53

Major Dude Will Tell

41:55

You"] I've

42:02

never seen you looking so bad my Pokemon

42:08

You tell me that your super fine

42:10

mind has come undone Any

42:13

major dude with half a heart surely

42:16

will tell you my friend Any

42:19

minor world that breaks apart falls

42:21

together again When

42:25

the demon is at your door in

42:28

the morning it won't be there no

42:31

more Any major

42:33

dude will tell you Any

42:38

major dude will tell you Coolly

42:43

detached, ironic and arch, Steely

42:45

Dan has always stood apart

42:47

from their contemporaries. The

42:50

songs written by singer-keyboardist Donald

42:52

Fagan and guitarist bassist Walter

42:54

Becker didn't sound like what was

42:56

popular at the time. This was

42:58

not heroic rock and roll in the manner

43:00

of Rod Stewart or Bad Company. Steely

43:03

Dan's music of profound uneasiness

43:06

erased any trace of macho

43:08

egotism. And that's another reason it

43:10

continues to sound as fresh and inviting as

43:12

it does. He's

43:19

left to a poor man cause

43:21

he's got to kill for every

43:23

thrill the best he can. Everywhere

43:28

around me I see

43:30

jealousy in mayhem because

43:33

no man have a loud peace

43:36

of mind to carry them. Well

43:40

I don't really care if

43:42

it's wrong or if it's right But

43:45

until my shit comes

43:48

in I'll live night

43:50

by night In

44:00

1974, Pretzel Logic found Steely Dan

44:02

at a crossroads. Their

44:04

first two albums had done what Fagan and Becker had

44:06

set out to do, establish the

44:08

band as a viable business proposition.

44:12

Having proved they could make hits, such as

44:14

Reelin in the Years and Do It Again,

44:16

they were able to take more creative control

44:18

of their career. Fagan and

44:20

Becker would no longer need to answer

44:22

to record company bosses about their obtuse

44:24

lyrics or justify their

44:26

intricate arrangements. With

44:28

Pretzel Logic, they began a new quest for

44:31

studio perfectionism that would carry on through the

44:33

rest of the act's existence. That's

44:59

the album's title song, a blues tune

45:02

that says trying to become

45:05

a star is a fool's

45:22

errand. In retrospect, you

45:25

can hear the song as a statement of goals.

45:28

Instead of trying to, quote, sound just

45:30

like a record on the phonograph, the

45:32

touring that's mentioned is what Becker and Fagan

45:35

wanted to stop doing. After

45:37

this album, Steely Dan wouldn't perform in

45:39

public again for decades. Indeed,

45:42

after Pretzel Logic, there was

45:44

no Steely Dan band. It

45:47

was just Fagan and Becker as

45:49

creatures of the recording studio, employing

45:51

an endless variety of esteemed session

45:54

musicians to execute their tricky compositions.

46:00

We hear you're

46:02

leaving, that's okay

46:14

I thought our little wild time had

46:17

just begun I

46:23

guess you kind of scared

46:25

yourself, you turn and run

46:30

But if you have a change

46:33

of heart, Ricky

46:36

don't lose that number

46:39

You don't want to

46:41

call nobody else Send

46:45

it off in a letter to

46:48

yourself Ricky

46:53

don't lose that number

46:56

It's the only one you

46:58

want You might

47:01

use it if you feel

47:03

better When you get home

47:08

Becker and Fagan's ceaseless pursuit

47:10

of pristine perfection would, in

47:12

later years, sometimes result in

47:14

bloodless sterility. Yes, I'm

47:17

thinking of you, 1980 album Gaucho. But

47:21

on Pretzel Logic, they were just insecure

47:23

enough to make sure they included a

47:25

radio-friendly single. Ricky don't lose

47:28

that number, peaked at number four. While

47:30

showcasing a range they would never

47:32

display again. The

47:34

song With a Gun is a Steely Dan

47:36

version of a Western, more Roy Rogers than

47:39

the Wild Bunch. Through

47:41

With Buzz is the shortest song

47:43

they ever recorded and contains the

47:45

ultimate Steely Dan sad hipster couplet,

47:48

quote, You know I'm cool, yes

47:50

I feel all right, except when I'm in my

47:52

room and it's late at night. Two

47:55

cuts touch on Becker and Fagan's love of

47:57

jazz. one

48:00

of the rare Dan songs whose lyric

48:02

is straightforward. It's a salute

48:04

to the saxophone great Charlie Parker. And

48:07

E St. Louis Tootaloo is a cover of a

48:09

jaunty 1920s instrumental by

48:12

Duke Ellington. The

48:52

cover of Pretzel Logic is a black

48:54

and white photograph of a pretzel vendor,

48:56

snapped in New York City's Central Park

48:58

on a cold slushy winter day. In

49:01

the Pretzel Logic context of this album,

49:04

that harsh image is a perfect analog

49:06

for the paradox of Steely Dan. They

49:09

were hitmakers who acted like obscure cult

49:12

artists. Others of

49:14

crowd pleasing pleasure with songs about

49:16

joyless obsessions. What

49:18

an unlikely great album. Rock

49:22

critic Ken Tucker. Steely Dan's

49:24

album Pretzel Logic was released 50

49:26

years ago. Susan

49:28

Nakundi directed today's show. With

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