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at capella.edu. This

0:14

is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Forty

0:16

acres and a mule is often referred

0:19

to as the broken promise of reparations

0:21

the U.S. government made to the formerly

0:23

enslaved. Well, a new investigative

0:25

series by the Center for Public Integrity,

0:28

Mother Jones and Reveal, finds that while

0:30

it was assumed 40 acres was only

0:32

promised to newly freed black people, the

0:35

government did indeed give land to more

0:37

than 1,200 formerly enslaved

0:39

men and women, only to take

0:41

the land back after their former

0:44

enslavers protested. The Center

0:46

for Public Integrity made this

0:48

discovery by analyzing recently digitized

0:50

records from the Reconstruction-era Freedmen's

0:52

Bureau. As part of their

0:55

two-year investigation, journalists tracked down the titles

0:57

of hundreds of properties in South Carolina

0:59

and Georgia. Some of the

1:02

land taken back is now gated majority white

1:04

communities, with values as much as 2.5 million.

1:08

This three-part series, which is

1:10

featured in this week's Mother Jones and

1:12

the Public Radio Show and Podcast, Reveal,

1:15

explores how this land loss deprived

1:17

formerly enslaved men and women of

1:19

building intergenerational wealth. The

1:22

lead journalist on the project is

1:24

senior investigative reporter Alexia Fernandez-Campbell with

1:26

the Center for Public Integrity. She

1:29

covers labor and inequality. And

1:31

Alexia, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much.

1:33

I'm glad to be here. Yes,

1:36

so what you and your colleagues have

1:38

done is really a big undertaking. Your

1:40

reporting, it offers the largest

1:42

collection of land titles from the 40

1:44

Acres Program to ever be analyzed and

1:46

published. And before we get into

1:48

your findings, I think we should start off

1:51

by having you first explain what the Freedmen's

1:53

Bureau promised in 1865 to

1:56

newly freed black Americans. Yeah,

1:58

so it's really interesting because The promise was

2:00

actually before the creation of the Freedmen's

2:03

Bureau. It was a general of the

2:05

army, General William Sherman, who

2:07

made the promise. And he

2:09

basically was marching to Savannah. They were

2:11

about to capture Savannah with the Union

2:13

army. And when he got

2:15

there, he was told to meet with the black

2:17

ministers and figure out what do we do, what

2:20

do the newly emancipated people want? And

2:22

so he met with black ministers and they

2:24

said, we want land. That's what we need.

2:26

And we need to be left alone. And

2:29

so that's when he issued special orders 15

2:31

that set aside basically the coast of Georgia,

2:33

South Carolina and North Florida to be settled

2:35

by newly emancipated people. And then

2:38

the Freedmen's Bureau was created by Congress

2:40

and by Lincoln and they were supposed

2:42

to help freed people all

2:44

over the South to adjust

2:47

to society, to help them with

2:49

like schooling, with medical care and

2:51

with finding jobs. And

2:53

the Freedmen's Bureau in Georgia and South

2:55

Carolina was specifically, you know, had

2:57

the task of making sure they got their land, their

3:00

40 acres on the land that was set aside to

3:02

them. And just to note, there

3:04

was not a promise of a mule, but some

3:07

people did receive them. Yeah, it's like a big

3:09

misconception. I don't know how that, you know, was

3:11

included, but some people did get mules, but it

3:13

wasn't actually part of like the policy. This

3:16

two year investigation, because it's two years, right?

3:19

Yeah. It began with you guys researching

3:21

another story. During that research, you stumbled

3:23

upon this old crumbled slip of paper.

3:25

What was it that you found? Yes,

3:28

I was looking for a different story. And then

3:30

I was someone had suggested that I look at

3:32

the Freedmen's Bureau records at the National

3:35

Archives. And then I was looking at these documents

3:37

and it was it was just such

3:39

a striking image that I looked

3:41

really closely. And it said,

3:43

Fergus Wilson, under the order of special order

3:45

15, has selected 40 acres on Sapelo

3:48

Island, Georgia. No one

3:50

is to interfere with him. He has the right to

3:52

possess and hold this land until

3:55

further authority from Congress. That's

3:58

not word for word, but that's basically what it said. And

4:00

at the time I didn't realize what special order 15 was, but

4:03

the 40 acres, I started looking

4:05

at all the other documents in the files, there

4:07

were lots of land titles with the same language,

4:09

but a lot of people had 40 acres. Not

4:12

everyone, there were some who had 15, 20. And

4:16

the 40 acres is kind of what stood out to

4:18

me and also just the appearance of these land titles,

4:20

they seemed significant. So then I Googled special orders 15

4:23

and I was like, oh my God, this is the

4:25

40 acres program, which I didn't know. Yeah,

4:27

so this took you on a journey along

4:30

with your colleagues to then

4:32

research this even more. You

4:34

all look through 1.8 million

4:37

records created by

4:39

this bureau of refugees, freedmen

4:41

and abandoned lands. These records

4:43

have only recently been digitized.

4:46

Yeah, it's been such a long process

4:48

for these documents to be made easily

4:51

accessible to the public because before

4:53

these documents were basically in boxes at

4:55

the National Archives Research Center in DC.

4:58

And many historians have come out and looked at them,

5:00

but you have to know exactly what you're looking for

5:02

because they're not just gonna let you loose on

5:05

all 1.8 million documents. So you have to

5:07

know what to ask for. And then like you said, there

5:09

were like nearly 1.8 million documents

5:12

that people have to look through. And

5:14

the hand rate, let me tell you this handwriting

5:16

of most of these records is nearly impossible to

5:18

read. So 1.8 million

5:21

records you all look through, you

5:23

found just over a thousand titles.

5:26

And I was wondering if

5:28

this indicates that this issue of these

5:31

titles then being given back to former enslavers

5:33

only impacted a small percentage of black American

5:36

land owners or were there black people who

5:38

received their land and then were able to

5:40

keep it? Yeah, that's

5:42

a really good question. And just to be clear, so we

5:44

found about 150, like the physical

5:47

land titles, but we also found logs,

5:49

registers with names of people who

5:51

got, I guess about 1,250 people who got those land

5:53

titles. So

5:55

I guess it's like where the Friedman Spear agents would

5:57

be like, I issued a land title to so and

5:59

so. former

8:00

enslavers got their land back. All the historians and books

8:02

we read about this say that no

8:04

one was able to keep their land, but I can't say

8:06

for sure that maybe there wasn't one or two who maybe

8:08

was able to buy it from their former

8:10

enslaver. That wasn't something that was happening. People

8:13

were selling some of their land to newly

8:15

free people because they just couldn't afford to

8:17

keep it anymore. This wasn't, of

8:19

course, a peaceful back and forth. What were some

8:21

of the ways the land was taken back? We

8:24

saw that, for example, in Georgia, there

8:27

was a militia called the Ogichi

8:29

Home Guard that Friedman had created. They

8:32

had their 40 acres. They were planting rice, which

8:34

is what they had been doing before the war.

8:37

But now they had their own land and they were planting

8:39

rice. They were selling it in Savannah. Many

8:41

of them had been there for a year when

8:43

they find out that the land is being returned.

8:45

To their former enslavers. Yeah, to their former enslavers.

8:49

We read about this. It was called the

8:51

Ogichi Insurrection. This militia because they

8:53

had created it to protect themselves. There was a lot

8:55

of violence, as you can imagine, against the

8:58

newly freed people from white landowners and just

9:00

white people in the South in general who

9:02

were not happy with how things turned out.

9:04

So they had this militia to

9:06

protect themselves. But then when they

9:08

found out that that was happening and when the landowners were coming

9:10

back and trying to tell them, hey, you have to work for

9:12

us or you have to get out of here. And so they

9:14

revolted. They were armed. A lot of people

9:16

were injured. I don't think anyone was killed in that. But the Freedmen's

9:19

Bureau had to send in the army. I'm

9:21

not sure it's unclear how many people in the

9:23

army came. All we know is that

9:25

the army was sent in to put down the

9:27

revolt and it did. And some of the freedmen ended up

9:29

in jail. You

9:31

mentioned these letters that the former

9:34

enslavers would send to lawmakers. There

9:36

was a lot of legislative back

9:38

and forth in opposition to President

9:41

Andrew Johnson, who took over after

9:43

Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. In

9:45

the end, the favor was on the side

9:48

of the former slaveholders. As you mentioned, you

9:50

found no evidence that a formerly

9:52

enslaved person that received land was

9:55

able to keep their land after

9:57

a former slaveholder petition enslaved

14:00

people who have these land titles. So they

14:02

resisted. And the landowners would be like, no,

14:04

we got pardoned by Johnson, we need to

14:06

get our land back. And like the Freedmen's

14:08

Bureau resisted for the longest time until

14:11

finally Johnson was like, no, you got to give them the land

14:13

back. And eventually they did. But

14:15

that's why we saw, you know, some people were

14:17

on that land for just six months. Others

14:19

were able to stay for a year and a

14:22

half. Like on Skidaway Island, there

14:24

were some of the last people to get kicked off.

14:26

You know, they knew that there was a black

14:29

independent community that had, you know, was thriving there.

14:31

And they were part of like creating

14:33

that and helping that, making that happen. And they didn't

14:35

want to see, to see

14:37

it all get destroyed, especially when they had made

14:39

those promises. So they held off

14:41

as long as they could. Eventually a lot of them

14:43

were forced to resign and new Freedmen's Bureau agents were

14:45

put in charge. And eventually, yeah,

14:47

that land was given back. So I would say

14:50

some people held onto it for about a year

14:52

and a half. And

14:54

how long did the Freedmen's Bureau stay

14:57

in existence until it dissolved? Because you

14:59

mentioned how they were just about in

15:01

every state in the South. Yeah, it

15:04

didn't last very long. I don't know the exact number of

15:06

years, but I don't think it was beyond 10 years total.

15:08

I think it might have been less. But

15:11

what I do know is that we also saw

15:13

letters of Freedmen's Bureau agents begging members of Congress

15:15

to please keep it

15:17

going longer. There were so many

15:20

sad letters of like agents being like, please,

15:22

the black Americans here, they need us to

15:24

stay here because we're the only protection they

15:26

have from the violent white

15:28

mobs. We're the ones who mediate

15:30

between them and the landowners or

15:32

their, because at that point many

15:35

of them were now working for

15:37

the former slaveholders. We mediate labor

15:39

disputes. We take records

15:41

of violence against Freedmen. We kind

15:43

of, we're their protection here

15:45

and you cannot get rid of us because it's gonna be

15:47

chaos. And it was some of the- Who are the people

15:49

who made up the Freedmen's Bureaus? Oh,

15:52

they were all like former army officers, part of the

15:54

Union Army. So instead of asking

15:56

them any questions, could they get an somewhat

15:58

playoffs too? his

22:00

great-great granddaughter or one of them. Her name

22:02

is Mila Rios. She's like, I bet you

22:04

it's because he was a teenager and he

22:06

didn't have a family. Because

22:09

I've noticed that a lot of the people who

22:11

had families, because on the register where it says

22:13

how much people got, the bigger

22:15

the family, the more likely you are to

22:17

get 40 acres. So I think that's why

22:19

he only got four acres in Grove Hill.

22:22

What's the story behind his land being taken away?

22:25

Yeah, so what we know is that he was

22:27

there on Grove Hill for about a year and

22:29

a half. And from what

22:31

we know of what was going on at that time,

22:33

the people who got land, they were harvesting rice. So

22:36

more than likely he was doing the same

22:38

thing. Around 1867, I

22:41

believe, he suddenly in Savannah, so a

22:43

year and a half later, which was

22:46

basically by that time the land had been

22:48

restored to his former slave owner, William Habersham,

22:50

who was one of the guys writing letters.

22:53

William Habersham, he was, if you're

22:55

from Georgia, you probably know about the Habersham family. At the

22:57

time they were very influential, very

22:59

wealthy from all the rice plantations, also

23:02

from import, export business

23:04

they had with England. So

23:06

they were one of the wealthiest families in Georgia at

23:08

the time. And there's

23:11

even a street named after the Habershams in Savannah.

23:13

So he was one of the people writing letters. He

23:16

even had someone contact his

23:18

US Senator in New York

23:20

and tell him about his case to please help

23:22

him speed up the pardon process so he could

23:24

get his land back. So we found

23:26

all these letters, all these attempts

23:29

for William Habersham to get his land on

23:31

Grove Hill back. Meanwhile, Pompey's

23:34

on the land, probably farming

23:36

it, harvesting rice. And then

23:39

suddenly in 1867, a few

23:41

months after William Habersham was pardoned and got

23:43

his land back, suddenly Pompey's in Savannah. So

23:46

we found out he got married to another freed

23:48

woman from South Carolina and he's working as a

23:51

carpenter. He registered to

23:53

vote. He opened a bank

23:55

account with the Freedmen's Bureau. So he basically

23:57

starts from zero after having lost that land.

28:00

and very much basically like a bubble

28:03

from the rest of the world. And it's only like

28:05

a 20 minute drive to downtown Savannah. So it's

28:07

really hard to describe. It was kind of jarring, you

28:10

know, knowing that history, knowing that so many

28:12

people got land titles on

28:14

plantations that are now part of this

28:16

community and not seeing any sign.

28:20

Can you describe these

28:22

areas before the land

28:24

was taken back? What

28:26

they were able to build, what they were

28:28

able to create and how long that time

28:31

frame was in these different areas?

28:34

Yeah, so of course, as you know,

28:36

the people who are really creating the

28:38

value of this land were the enslaved

28:40

people. They were the ones who had

28:42

the expertise in harvesting rice and harvesting

28:44

cotton and doing the work on the

28:46

land, building the structures, building homes on

28:49

this plantation. So they were the ones who

28:51

knew what to do. And they essentially

28:53

were doing the exact same thing, but they

28:56

were doing it for themselves, for their own

28:58

profits, for their families. So we found like

29:00

a range of scenarios

29:02

and not all of them were like, you

29:05

know, idyllic utopias like Skidaway Island. What

29:07

we did find was that people who

29:09

were on the sea islands where

29:11

they were isolated from the mainland and white

29:13

people couldn't come and and basically

29:16

like sabotage what they were doing. They

29:18

had more success in building communities. And so

29:20

there were schools on many of these islands

29:23

communities. They were farming for themselves. They were

29:25

selling what they harvested

29:27

in Savannah. But on the mainland,

29:29

like we found

29:31

a lot of reports of violence against

29:33

people, freedmen who were on

29:35

their 40 acres from white. It

29:38

would just say that what we found was just letters,

29:41

for example, Freedmen's Bureau agents

29:43

saying there's been a lot of violence and the

29:45

courts here are not convicting. The juries are not

29:47

convicting. And no one is being held accountable for

29:49

the murders. So I would say

29:52

that it was like kind of like a contrast between

29:54

those who were could be easily attacked

29:56

by white mobs or who

29:59

did not like. And

32:00

he spoke with reporter April Simpson.

32:02

Let's listen. Do descendants

32:04

of Jim Hutchinson, like you, should

32:07

they get reparations? Should you get reparations?

32:10

Like, what do you think about that? So

32:15

if you look at the totality, 400 years

32:19

of being in this country, the

32:22

Middle Passage, free

32:24

labor, Jim Crow,

32:27

civil rights, yes,

32:31

you know, I think there

32:33

should be some type of reparations. What

32:36

that is, I can't tell you, and

32:39

I'm not smart enough to know how to fix it. I

32:42

don't know how to fix it. You

32:45

know, even today, a lot of people don't even want

32:47

to acknowledge. And if

32:49

they do acknowledge it, they downplay. That

32:54

was the Center for Public Integrity

32:57

journalist April Simpson interviewing Greg Estesves,

32:59

the descendant of an enslaved man

33:01

who was given land on Edistel

33:03

Island. Estesves sits

33:05

on the side of, yes,

33:08

there should be reparations paid to descendants

33:10

of the enslaved. Why

33:12

do you think the how and the argument for

33:15

reparations is such a hard question to answer

33:17

for the people that you spoke with? Because as

33:19

you note, our government

33:21

does have a history of redress. You

33:24

delve into this in your article. Yes.

33:28

So, you know,

33:30

the government has given reparations to

33:32

people. So it's definitely a possible

33:34

to the Japanese Americans who were

33:37

imprisoned during the war, they

33:39

got reparations. So it's not an

33:41

idea that is just so fantastical. I

33:44

think the issue here is that there's just so

33:46

many different opinions on what that

33:48

would look like, because this is so much more

33:50

complex in one moment, like when

33:53

the Japanese Americans were imprisoned during

33:55

one moment in history. This

33:57

is something that spans, like Greg said,

33:59

like hundreds of years slavery. But then

34:01

there was Jim Crow in the South.

34:03

There was redlining all over the country

34:05

that prevented people, black Americans, from being

34:08

able to purchase homes in

34:10

desirable neighborhoods. And so

34:12

there's just so many different elements that

34:15

are a result of our history of,

34:17

you know, enslaving people that people

34:19

just have different ideas of what it needs to be.

34:22

For example, we know one expert who thinks every

34:24

single black person living in the United States should

34:27

get, I think, a million dollars. I think that

34:29

was his calculation on what would have basically

34:32

40 acres meant financially

34:34

for people alive today, their descendants. But he thinks

34:36

that every single black person, and there are other

34:38

people who are like, well, no, if you weren't

34:40

a descendant, you have to prove that you're a

34:42

descendant of someone who was slaved in the US.

34:45

Not that you were the descendant of someone enslaved

34:47

in another country in the Americas. So

34:49

there's different ideas of who should get

34:51

it. And then there's ideas of how

34:53

much money it should be, and then

34:55

should it be specific to

34:58

specific moments. who

35:00

are giving reparation, not a lot, but there are few, giving

35:03

reparations for specific policies that

35:05

their communities implemented that prevented

35:08

black people from either owning homes or for

35:10

taking their land. So then there's

35:12

very specific local initiatives. So there's a lot of

35:15

debate about whether it should be a federal thing,

35:17

whether it should be a state thing, local thing,

35:19

and who's entitled to it. So I would say

35:21

that's why it's become so complicated, but I would

35:23

say that the majority of black Americans now, I

35:26

think there have been surveys showing

35:28

do support some form of reparations. It's

35:30

just a matter of the details.

35:33

And then there's the other side of it where

35:36

some people think that it's just been

35:38

too long, that that's in the rear

35:40

view mirror and so much progress has

35:42

happened. And in that way, reparations

35:45

has come with progress. Your

35:48

colleague, Reveal Producer Nadia Hamden,

35:50

interviewed Jenks Michael, and he's

35:52

the descendant of Isaac Jenkins

35:54

Michael, a plantation owner who

35:57

not only enslaved Greg Estes' great, great,

35:59

great, great. Thank

40:01

you so much for having me. Alexia

40:04

Fernandez-Campbell is an investigative reporter who's

40:06

part of a team of journalists

40:08

with the Center for Public Integrity

40:10

in collaboration with Reveal, the Center

40:13

for Investigative Reporting, and Mother Jones.

40:16

The name of their three-part series is 40

40:18

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40:23

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41:54

in 1990 starring Harrison Ford.

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Now it's being remade as an eight-part mini

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series by Apple's