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0:18

This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Hip-hop

0:21

is being celebrated this month in honor of

0:23

its 50th anniversary. My guests

0:25

are two music journalists who love hip-hop,

0:27

cover it for NPR music, have written

0:30

extensively about it for most of their adult

0:32

lives, and grew up with it. But

0:34

they're also not afraid to call out hip-hop

0:36

when they see misogyny, homophobia, or

0:39

transphobia. Rodney Carmichael

0:41

and Sydney Madden host the NPR Hip-Hop

0:43

podcast, Louder Than a Riot. Here's

0:46

how they describe this season.

0:48

And from NPR music, this is

0:50

Louder Than a Riot. Where we confront the

0:52

double standard that's become the standard. On

0:55

every episode this season, we tackle

0:57

one unwritten rule of hip-hop that affects the most

1:00

marginalized among us and holds the

1:02

entire culture back.

1:03

And one that a new generation of rap

1:05

refuses to stand for.

1:09

This season, they're highlighting the stories

1:11

of female, gay, and queer rappers

1:13

who were daring enough to be themselves in

1:15

spite of all the pressure to conform to the standards

1:18

set by the straight, often hyper-masculine

1:20

men who have dominated rap for most of its

1:22

history. In the first season, Louder

1:25

Than a Riot investigated the connection between

1:27

hip-hop and mass incarceration. Or

1:30

as they put it, the collision of rhyme

1:32

and punishment in America.

1:34

Unfortunately, Louder Than a Riot was one of

1:36

the shows NPR eliminated during its

1:39

recent round of budget cuts. So

1:41

the current second season is also the

1:43

final one.

1:45

Sydney Madden, Rodney Carmichael, welcome to

1:47

Fresh Air. I've really enjoyed your podcast,

1:49

and it's a pleasure to have you on the show. I'm

1:52

sorry that the show was

1:54

canceled,

1:55

but at least you got two really good seasons out of it.

1:58

Oh, thanks so much, Terri. We're definitely glad to be here. glad

2:00

to be here. Appreciate even

2:02

knowing you've been listening. So that's great. I

2:04

know we're definitely honored to be here. And we're

2:07

proud of the two seasons that got us here. So

2:09

thank you so much. What's

2:11

the hip hop track that first got

2:13

you really excited about hip hop?

2:16

Oh, man. I

2:18

have a standard answer to that. It's

2:22

a track that's still probably celebrated today.

2:25

You probably heard it a lot this month if

2:27

you were tuned into hip hop 50 celebrations.

2:30

It's not the first hip hop song I

2:33

ever heard. But it's the first

2:35

song that showed me that hip hop

2:38

could be more than just partying,

2:41

for instance. And it's

2:43

the song by

2:44

Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5, The

2:47

Message. I love this track

2:49

so much. It's so well-written.

2:52

And of course, Milly Milled

2:54

is doing the rapping. But Duke Booty actually wrote

2:57

the lyric.

2:57

And it's

2:59

so good because it shows everything that's

3:01

going on outside, making

3:04

the rapper wonder how he keeps him going

3:06

under. And it

3:09

shows both anger,

3:13

social commentary,

3:14

and vulnerability at the same time.

3:17

Because he's

3:19

trying to prevent himself from going

3:21

under and saying, don't push me because I'm

3:23

close to the edge. It's

3:26

just so well done. And the rapping is so

3:28

good on it.

3:29

And you know, Terry, if I can say, that's still

3:32

my favorite kind of rap song. That's

3:34

a whole lane of rap

3:36

that continues. If

3:39

you look at trap,

3:40

trap music is very much that

3:42

lane.

3:43

Quote, unquote, gangster rap in the

3:45

90s was very much that lane. All

3:48

of my favorite rappers, a lot

3:50

of them talked about struggle and

3:52

overcoming. And

3:55

insurmountable odds, all

3:57

of that stuff. That's hip hop.

3:59

It's fine, it's you know. I'm really glad you chose

4:02

this. Let's hear a little bit of it.

4:30

Broken

4:33

glass everywhere. People pissin'

4:36

on the stage, you know they just don't care. I can't

4:38

take the smell, can't take the noise. Got no

4:40

money to move out, I guess I got no choice.

4:42

Racks in the front, room, road is in the back.

4:45

Junkies in the alley with the baseball bat.

4:47

I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far.

4:49

Cause a man with a touch-up repossessed my car.

4:52

Don't push me, cause I'm

4:54

close to the edge. I'm

4:57

tryin' not to lose

5:00

my head. Ha ha ha ha. It's

5:02

like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I

5:04

keep from going under. Standing

5:07

on the front stoop, hanging out the window. And

5:09

Sydney, is there a track for you that you listened

5:12

to early on that really

5:14

kind of made you fall in love with the music?

5:17

And I realize you're younger than Rodney, so you

5:19

were kind of surrounded by it.

5:21

Yeah. And that's probably

5:23

the first music you heard. Yeah.

5:27

But nevertheless, just something that was really formative

5:29

for you.

5:30

I do vividly remember going

5:33

to the supermarket and being allowed

5:35

to buy the miseducation of Lauryn Hill

5:38

CD with my allowance and

5:41

playing it back to back over and over.

5:44

But you know, stopping on certain songs

5:46

and I feel like Lost Ones was

5:48

really one of those songs for me. It

5:51

just talked about, similar to Rodney, the

5:54

tension, the

5:56

fleeting nihilism, the diary.

5:59

aspect to it and really just

6:02

putting to words so much of the swelling emotions

6:05

I felt coming up but never knew

6:07

how to describe or never had the vocabulary

6:09

of for myself.

6:11

All right, let's hear it.

7:00

Okay, so that was the track chosen

7:02

by Sydney Madden as one of the formative

7:04

tracks that she

7:14

loved in hip-hop. So

7:17

why did you decide to do a season critical

7:19

of hyper-masculinity and misogyny in

7:21

hip-hop? Well coming off the first

7:23

season where, as you said Terry,

7:25

it was all about the collision of rhyme and punishment

7:28

in America, we still wanted

7:30

to examine that unique

7:33

and complicated relationship. And

7:35

so what we did is we shifted our lens

7:37

to look inward at hip-hop on

7:40

the eve of what would be its 50th birthday

7:43

and reconcile some of the

7:45

inequalities that hip-hop has not

7:48

pushed against but actually embodied

7:51

in becoming this behemoth of

7:53

industry and culture. And

7:56

where we're at right now with who's

7:58

running hip-hop, where the barramis is at with

8:00

hip-hop. We talk about it a little bit

8:02

in the second season like the girls and the gays are running things

8:05

like they are the culture crusaders

8:08

at this point when you think about who

8:11

is creating trends who's starting

8:13

talking points who's ending and deading

8:16

old tropes and old archetypes and

8:19

we wanted to spotlight not

8:21

only those people but kind

8:23

of examine everything

8:26

that has come before that they need

8:28

to be pushing against in the first place.

8:29

Rodney were you

8:32

reluctant at all to take

8:35

on this theme or these

8:37

themes during this season

8:39

thinking you'd get a lot of pushback from

8:41

from hip-hop fans for criticizing

8:44

aspects of hip-hop? Definitely

8:47

not. I think that Sydney and I were

8:50

very much on the same page about season

8:53

two and the theme and you know

8:55

both season one and season two were very much about

8:58

us taking the temperature of the culture

9:00

in that moment

9:01

and when we looked around and saw

9:04

what was happening and what was going on within

9:06

hip-hop at that time it was

9:09

like you know

9:10

the story subject and theme

9:13

for this season was basically being

9:15

served to us so it

9:17

was well past due but

9:20

also right on time you know and

9:22

I'm speaking specifically about Megan

9:24

Thee Stallion and Tory

9:26

Lanez. That case

9:29

you know interestingly enough just been

9:31

resolved in the last few

9:33

weeks.

9:34

Tory Lanez got sentenced to 10

9:37

years.

9:38

Now when we were conceptualizing

9:41

this season the trial hadn't

9:43

even started yet you know but the

9:46

culture hip-hop culture specifically

9:48

was reacting really strongly

9:51

to to what happened and

9:54

Megan Thee Stallion honestly was just taking

9:56

a lot of flack a lot

9:58

of heat and I mean a lot of

9:59

a lot of the themes that we cover

10:02

in this season

10:03

were happening in real time. And

10:06

the case for people that aren't familiar was

10:09

a case of Tori Lane shooting, making

10:11

a stallion after they had been

10:13

at

10:15

a house party in the Hollywood Hills

10:18

one night. And she

10:20

didn't come forward immediately and when she did,

10:23

a lot of people didn't believe her. Exactly.

10:25

Or even stories that, oh, she shot herself. Yeah.

10:28

Yeah. It was, wow. Yeah.

10:30

But finally it came to trial and

10:32

he was sentenced. I want

10:35

to talk with you about one of the first women who

10:37

in hip hop, who you devote an episode

10:39

to early in the season and

10:41

that's Shah Rock.

10:43

And she was in the group, The

10:45

Funky Four Plus One, she was the plus one.

10:48

And they're really early in the history

10:50

of rap. Their first recording is 1980

10:53

on Sugar Hill Records. Sugar Hill was like

10:55

the first hip hop label.

10:58

And before we talk about what happened

11:00

to her, let's hear some music. So

11:02

this is, that's the joint. And we'll pick

11:04

up on the part where she's

11:05

rapping. She's the joint.

11:08

Do it up y'all. Do, do it up. Shah

11:10

Rock is gonna show you how you get real rock. I'm

11:12

Shah Rock. And I kept, we stopped for

11:15

all the fly guys. I would hit the top. Well

11:17

I can do it for the ones go weak and strong.

11:19

And I can do it for the ones that are right or wrong. Well

11:21

I missed it and they call them best classified.

11:24

I could be a nurse and I'm qualified

11:26

to talk about respect. I won't neglect

11:28

my strategy. It's for you to see. So

11:30

don't turn away by what I say. Cause

11:33

I'm on, I'm bad when I'm talking to you. Therefore

11:36

fly covers sugar to it too. The part of people

11:38

in the place is just for you. Just to get down.

11:41

Get, get, get on down. I'm the plus one more

11:43

and I'm going down. She's the best female

11:45

in this hip town. And everybody know

11:47

that I'm golden brown and you know. She's

11:50

the joint. I'm a poor young lady with 95,000.

11:53

So that was the funky four plus one.

11:55

With Shah Rock being the plus one.

11:58

So they're the first group, the first hip.

11:59

group on Saturday Night Live. She's the

12:02

first, I think she's the first like recorded

12:04

hip-hop female.

12:07

Why was she

12:09

basically shut out? Well

12:12

one of the big things that that ends up

12:14

happening to Shiroc that

12:17

just kind of shows how different

12:19

the times are now versus then

12:21

is really at the

12:24

height of the

12:26

Funky Forest success, Shiroc

12:28

gets pregnant and

12:31

the height of

12:33

success for them is being the first hip-hop

12:35

group to appear on Saturday Night

12:37

Live. You know they have this

12:40

really big performance, a

12:42

lot of you know a lot of their peers

12:44

at the time are upset because

12:46

they feel like they should have been the group that was

12:48

chosen to you know do this

12:51

big thing, bring hip-hop to the masses on

12:53

Saturday Night Live. The

12:55

Funky Forest was picked specifically

12:58

because

12:59

Shiroc was in the group you know

13:01

this was the night that Debbie

13:03

Harry was hosting

13:05

the show and she was

13:07

familiar with the Funky Forest

13:10

and really liked them because they were young

13:12

and fresh and they had Shiroc

13:14

you know and she wanted to spotlight

13:17

them

13:17

and Shiroc

13:20

is pregnant at the time of the performance which

13:22

a lot of people in hip-hop

13:25

you know don't find out till years

13:27

later. I mean we talked to DMC

13:30

and Run DMC for this episode

13:32

he's a huge fan of Shiroc. He

13:34

didn't know until we told him during the

13:36

interview that Shiroc was pregnant at that time

13:39

you know so she was hiding it at

13:41

the time because she felt

13:43

like it would in some way

13:45

shape or form be construed

13:48

as detrimental to their

13:51

success and everything they were doing and

13:53

when she told him after the show that's

13:55

what happened you know her group

13:57

members did not support her

14:00

did not hold her down. And the

14:02

sentiment pretty much was, man,

14:05

we're on the cusp here and you're

14:08

messing this up right now. So there

14:10

were lots of factors that went

14:12

into the group splitting up. But

14:15

her treatment by her group members,

14:18

by hip hop culture at that time, was

14:20

really a huge part

14:23

of what ended up happening and why

14:25

her name has not rang out

14:28

to me that it should have, based

14:31

on her being this pioneering

14:33

first woman MC.

14:35

And compare that to how pregnancy is treated

14:37

now. Exactly. Hip

14:40

hop artists show off their baby bump. It's

14:42

a big thing that they're really proud of that they

14:45

show in various ways.

14:48

It's the theme now. It's

14:50

not taboo anymore. No, which is

14:52

great. One

14:55

of the stories that you did was about how the

14:57

Me Too movement basically

14:59

passed by hip hop. And to illustrate

15:01

that, you tell the story of Kim Osorio,

15:04

who was like the first female editor

15:06

in chief of The Source, which was

15:08

for her time, the Bible of the hip hop movement.

15:11

They sponsored their own awards, which were very

15:13

important awards in the world of hip hop.

15:16

Hip hop and she came forward and accused the magazines

15:18

owners of harassing her and discriminating

15:21

against her because of her gender. And

15:24

she sued the magazine and her former bosses

15:27

for gender discrimination, sexual

15:29

harassment, hostile work environment, retaliation,

15:32

and defamation. But in 2006, when it came to

15:34

trial, the

15:37

claims of hostile environment or being a victim

15:40

of sexual harassment and gender discrimination

15:42

were dismissed. But

15:45

the owners were

15:47

found guilty of defaming her in

15:50

interviews after they fired her and

15:53

they were convicted of firing her

15:55

in retaliation.

15:57

So what are your thoughts? on

16:00

the Me Too movement having

16:02

passed by hip-hop. First of all, what

16:04

do you mean by that?

16:06

Well, it was really important for

16:08

us to investigate and

16:10

revisit this case because when

16:12

it was actually going down in the early 2000s,

16:14

the big headline news from

16:16

this case was more so that Kim Osari

16:19

herself as the former editor-in-chief was

16:22

getting a little too close and personal with

16:24

rappers. So it was kind of

16:27

residually defaming

16:29

her in the midst of her claiming that

16:32

this place that she worked that was considered the hip-hop

16:34

Bible at the time was an unsafe

16:36

place for women. And

16:38

when we say the Me Too movement

16:41

missed hip-hop, this is

16:43

a case that really predates the Me

16:45

Too movement if we're thinking about the

16:49

social shift that happened with the, quote

16:51

unquote, Me Too movement in 2015. And

16:53

it could have been a moment that actually

16:57

theoretically started off the Me

16:59

Too movement knowing how influential

17:01

hip-hop was in the early 2000s. And

17:04

the reason she was not successful on the

17:06

claims of workplace

17:08

harassment was around the severe

17:10

and pervasive standard that was just

17:12

recently done away within the state of New York.

17:16

And she presented, her and her

17:18

lawyers presented all these examples

17:21

of unsafe,

17:25

unsavory, disgusting,

17:27

icky types of moments

17:30

and events that happened in the workplace. But

17:32

overall, we're talking about pornography

17:34

being

17:37

hung up on the walls.

17:39

We're talking about men's only

17:42

meetings where women were not

17:44

allowed. One of

17:46

the former owners of the magazine would

17:48

go around and touch female staffers

17:50

very inappropriately, touch bra

17:52

straps, gift people Victoria's Secret

17:55

underwear for holiday parties.

17:58

And oh, sorry. Mario even claims

18:00

that one of the owners kind

18:03

of cornered her in an elevator one

18:05

night and said, we could be the king and the queen of the

18:07

source. Come on, what are you doing? And

18:09

really pressed her on that. And

18:12

the other owner, he was aware

18:14

of all these behaviors and this culture that

18:16

was being set

18:19

and being allowed to rock in the

18:21

magazine in the office, and

18:23

he didn't really do anything to stop

18:26

it. So after

18:28

the trial, once we get to the Me Too

18:30

movement

18:31

years later, do you think the Me Too

18:33

movement had an impact on hip-hop

18:35

culture

18:36

and on women's ability to speak up?

18:39

I don't think it did, and

18:41

I don't think it really has. I

18:43

mean, there have been many examples

18:46

in the hip-hop space and in the hip-hop music

18:48

space and the hip-hop culture

18:50

space where women

18:53

have come forward, people have come forward,

18:55

and it hasn't really made

18:58

a seismic shift in how black

19:01

women and people presenting as black women

19:03

or anybody else who is not

19:06

in the majority, who is not a cis-hat black man,

19:09

is treated in these spaces. There's

19:12

examples of people like Drew

19:14

Dixon who told her entire

19:16

story of harassment and abuse at

19:18

the hands of Russell Simmons, and other

19:20

women have come out and speaking out

19:22

against Russell Simmons, and it hasn't made any

19:25

seismic type of shift. And

19:27

it's not a one-to-one comparison. It's

19:32

not workplace violence, but

19:34

it is a comparable

19:36

example to look at how

19:38

Megan Thee Stallion was disbelieved

19:42

by a lot of heavy hitters in hip-hop,

19:44

was ridiculed, was made fun of, was residually

19:47

harassed for years later,

19:49

even after being shot at by someone

19:51

who she

19:53

thought

19:55

was her friend, another person in the hip-hop

19:57

world.

19:59

just goes to show you that

20:02

even with the pendulum swings

20:04

of influence and

20:07

like cash flow, fluidity,

20:10

and just popularity of

20:12

black women, black femmes, and

20:15

anyone else, anyone trans

20:18

in this space who's making waves

20:20

culturally, the idea

20:22

that they are still not believed and respected

20:25

is very much present.

20:27

Well, let me reintroduce you here because

20:29

it's time for another break. If you're just joining us,

20:31

my guests are Sydney Madden and Rodney Carmichael,

20:34

hosts of the NPR Hip Hop Podcast,

20:36

Louder Than a Riot. We'll be right back

20:38

after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and

20:40

this is Fresh Air. The world

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of podcasts can feel overwhelming. We'll

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let you in on the easiest way to find

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to pop culture to music and everything

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in between, you'll find a selection

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slash freshair. You'll hear from us soon.

21:48

Now, back to the show. Let's

21:50

get back to my interview with Rodney Carmichael and

21:52

Sydney Madden, hosts of the NPR

21:54

hip-hop podcast, Louder Than a Riot.

21:57

The current season is about misogyny, homophobia,

21:59

and- transphobia in hip-hop and

22:02

the new generation of performers who are not standing

22:04

for that. The first season was about the

22:06

intersection of hip-hop and mass incarceration.

22:10

The title of the series, Louder Than a Riot,

22:12

is a reference to Martin Luther King's quote,

22:14

a riot is the language of the unheard.

22:18

So

22:21

I want to talk with you about your own lives in

22:23

hip-hop and how the music influenced you.

22:26

So we have a whole episode about how you were influenced

22:28

by the hyper-masculinity

22:31

and misogyny in an era of hip-hop

22:33

when you were growing up. What

22:35

was the image of masculinity you

22:38

got from the music that you most loved?

22:41

Well you know in a lot of ways

22:44

it was nuanced, especially in the beginning.

22:46

I'm talking mid-80s on

22:49

up from Big Daddy Kane

22:52

and Rock M to Jazzy

22:54

Jeff and the Fresh Prince who

22:56

were definitely an early favorite of mine. For

22:59

every LL Cool J you

23:01

had, there was an

23:04

MC Hammer, which he

23:07

got a lot of flack at the time for his

23:09

pop leanings.

23:11

He liked to dance and I was growing

23:13

up in Atlanta and dance was very much

23:15

a part of our hip-hop culture down here.

23:18

So I mean if you were a young black

23:20

man growing up in the 90s and

23:22

you were receiving these messages of

23:25

black men being an endangered species

23:27

and this war on drugs, which

23:30

we now understand was really a war

23:32

on black people,

23:33

the mass incarceration era is kind of

23:35

getting ramped up. There

23:39

was an intensity, the crack

23:41

era, there was an intensity around

23:44

how you present yourself

23:46

as a man and the music was reflecting

23:49

that as well. A lot of my

23:51

favorite rappers were hyper,

23:54

hyper masculine and

23:57

it was something that I fed

23:59

off of. because in a lot of ways it

24:01

felt like it was something that I needed to

24:03

be as well. What's the image

24:06

of hyper masculinity that you're describing?

24:08

What goes along with that? I mean, NWA

24:11

comes to mind.

24:12

Luke and early

24:14

two live crew come to mind. You

24:17

know, there was hypersexual

24:19

music. NWA

24:22

obviously, they pretty much pioneer what

24:25

becomes known as gangster rap to

24:27

some, a reality rap to others, but

24:29

very much street. And...

24:32

Two live crew, who you mentioned, they have a

24:35

song that's basically about gang rape,

24:37

kind of glorifying it. Yeah,

24:40

yeah, they had a song that I can't

24:42

say the title of on air, but

24:45

in a lot of ways, I think it does

24:47

kind of introduce you depending on your age

24:49

at the time. I was really young

24:52

when this came out. It kind

24:54

of introduces you to rape

24:56

culture. You know what I mean? And

25:00

I guess maybe not introduces, but it

25:02

makes it very casual

25:04

in terms of how

25:06

you think about

25:08

sex, especially if you haven't had

25:10

it yet. You know, and everything that you're consuming

25:12

at that point in time is kind of teaching

25:15

you and schooling you. And,

25:17

you know, even if you had great parents at

25:19

home, it's really hard

25:22

to not be swayed by what you're, you

25:24

know, you're internalizing your culture, you're internalizing

25:27

the music. And, you know, that was definitely

25:29

one of the things that I was hearing.

25:31

How did it actually shape your behavior? Did

25:34

it shape your behavior? You know, listening

25:36

to

25:37

lyrics by hyper-masculine rappers,

25:40

you know, or people posing as hyper-masculine

25:42

and rapping about guns and drugs and

25:44

women and sex. And so

25:47

did that shape your behavior as well as just,

25:50

you know, fantasies and,

25:52

you know, having those lyrics live in your

25:54

head. I mean, I think

25:56

it made me, it made me check

25:58

my sensitivity. which

26:01

is probably the first thing that happens, right?

26:03

You just start to, you

26:05

start to learn how to guard or

26:08

hold up a guard or mask your own

26:10

sensitivity. And vulnerability.

26:14

And vulnerability, yeah. Especially,

26:17

well, both really with other men,

26:20

but most definitely with women

26:22

as well.

26:24

You know, women that you're interested in,

26:27

women that you might have tender

26:29

feelings for. But, you know,

26:32

you might feel like it's not necessarily cool

26:35

to express that too much, you

26:37

know, or be too open or vulnerable about

26:40

that. You know, you learn how

26:42

to pose and mask a little bit,

26:44

or at least you try to. Cindy,

26:47

what about you? You grew up with a lot

26:49

of the same music.

26:50

How did it affect your idea of what it meant to be female?

26:54

Yeah, there were messages

26:56

of overt objectification, but there

26:58

were also messages of being the

27:01

weirdo and being successful at it. So I'm thinking

27:03

like, you know, yeah, I grew up

27:05

on Trina, but I also grew up on Lauryn

27:07

Hill, and I also grew up on Missy Elliott,

27:10

which if you say those three names, you

27:13

could think of like completely divergent messages

27:15

and divergent paths of what those women

27:17

represent in hip hop. But to me, it was

27:20

like I was on shuffle and I was listening to all

27:22

those messages at the same time. So

27:25

it's hard to say that I had one succinct

27:28

and loud message about

27:32

what being a black woman

27:34

was courtesy of hip hop, because

27:37

I had all this variety

27:40

and all this. Well, you had women rappers, women

27:42

were coming forward,

27:44

women were

27:45

popular. So Rodney, you

27:48

talk in your very personal episode

27:50

about how being a father

27:52

made you hear hip hop

27:54

differently.

27:55

You wanted your son to love it

27:58

like you did, but you didn't want the songs to be like that. to

28:00

form his image of what it meant to be

28:02

a man. And

28:04

when he was three years old, you played him a

28:06

biggie track. So

28:09

the track that you mentioned that you played him in the episode

28:12

is Everyday Struggle. So I

28:14

wanna play just a little bit of that. And,

28:16

okay. So

28:19

we're gonna play the beginning. So

28:21

we'll hear the chorus.

28:24

Right. I

28:26

don't wanna live no more. Sometimes I hear

28:29

death knocking at my front door. I'm

28:31

living every day like a hustle. Another drug,

28:33

a juggle. Another day, another struggle.

28:35

Right. I don't wanna live no more.

28:38

Sometimes I hear death knocking at my front door.

28:40

I'm living every day like a hustle. Another

28:43

drug, a juggle. Another day, another

28:45

struggle. Right. I know how it feel

28:47

to wake up messed up. Pocket stroke

28:49

is hell, another rock to sell. People

28:52

look at you like you's the use. I'm selling drugs

28:54

to all the losers. Mad Buddha abuser.

28:56

But they don't know about your stress-filled days. Baby

28:59

on the way, mad bills of pain. That's

29:01

why you drink tangerine. So you can reminisce

29:03

and wish you wasn't living so devilish.

29:06

So that

29:08

is in fact a really catchy, biggy

29:10

track. Why did you wanna

29:12

choose that track to play for your son?

29:15

Because in addition to the fact that

29:17

the track has a lot to do with dealing

29:20

drugs and having guns and stuff, it's

29:23

like in part about

29:25

death, sometimes feeling like death

29:27

is knocking at your door, which is a complicated

29:30

concept for a three-year-old who

29:32

probably doesn't know what death is yet. So

29:34

can you talk about the experience of playing that for your

29:36

son and what you wished for and what you didn't

29:38

wish for when you played it?

29:41

Well, it started out much more

29:43

innocently than that. My

29:46

wife bought him a biggy t-shirt, it's

29:49

a picture of his first album

29:52

cover, Biggie's

29:54

debut album cover, which for anybody

29:57

familiar knows, it's a picture of a baby.

29:59

It's supposed to be. a likeness of Biggie.

30:01

It's a baby with an afro and a diaper,

30:03

you know, ready to die is the album

30:06

title. And I couldn't

30:08

have my son walking around representing Biggie

30:11

in this t-shirt without having any clue

30:13

or idea what he was wearing.

30:15

So I started playing him

30:17

Juicy, which is the

30:19

big commercial single off

30:22

of that album.

30:23

Very different kind of song. It's, you

30:26

know, it's Biggie kind of projecting

30:28

himself into success, which obviously

30:31

he ended up attaining

30:32

before he died. And,

30:35

you know, it's that kind of rapper's fantasy

30:37

of, you know, I'm a millionaire and I made

30:39

it and I moved my family out of the projects,

30:42

et cetera, et cetera, gloss and glamour.

30:44

But right after Biggie,

30:47

the next song

30:48

in the track list is

30:50

Everyday Struggle. I don't know, there's

30:52

something about the sample,

30:54

you know, it's very catchy, you hear

30:56

the melody playing

30:58

and yeah, he just grew to like it. Obviously he doesn't

31:01

know what it's about,

31:02

although he always asks me what it's

31:04

about.

31:05

Yeah, so funny to think of a three year old wanting

31:08

to sing I Don't Wanna Live No More. Sometimes

31:10

I hear it definitely looking up my door. That's a lot.

31:12

He doesn't know the lyrics, he does

31:14

not sing a line. Right, right. But

31:17

I think part of that is why

31:20

I wanted to do an episode like this because

31:22

I kind of, I know that I want to be armed

31:25

with the conversations

31:26

to be able to have with him about

31:29

how to process

31:32

and ingest and still have a respect for

31:35

and enjoy this culture and this

31:37

music that I love.

31:39

And a lot of these topics

31:41

are very adult topics, but

31:44

I think that it's better to start

31:47

as a father thinking about that earlier

31:49

than later. I mean, hip hop has

31:51

given me a lot of things, like Sydney was saying.

31:54

The gangster thing was one element, but it also

31:56

gave me a love for being weird

31:58

and being open.

31:59

and you know, De La Soul and a

32:02

tribe called Quest and groups like that

32:04

were my favorite too. And I want

32:06

him to develop a relationship with the

32:08

range of that experience

32:11

as well because it's the range of black

32:13

folks experience in this country.

32:15

You know, and talking about raising a son and

32:17

wanting him to love hip hop as much as you

32:19

do, but wanting him to, you know, think

32:22

about the lyrics and all of that. You

32:24

talk about how, you know, hip hop heads obsess

32:26

over their daughters and protecting their daughters.

32:29

And you say when it comes to baby girls, the patriarchy

32:32

don't play. Meanwhile, the

32:34

same people raise their sons to,

32:36

you know, be as bad as old dad is

32:38

what you say. So can

32:40

you talk about trying to grapple with that as a father,

32:43

you know? Yeah, that double standard, man. That's

32:46

what the season is about. I mean, so

32:49

my son is four now and

32:51

that's still his favorite song. I'm really

32:54

trying to expose him to more rap. He wants

32:56

to hear B.I.G. every day. It's

32:58

like, what have I created? But

33:00

my wife and I had a daughter last year.

33:02

And yeah, it was during the time

33:04

of making this episode and this season. And

33:07

so it was impossible

33:09

to not think about the way that fathers,

33:13

you know, even hip hop fathers, there's so

33:15

many songs I could think about where, you

33:17

know, we're being doting dads

33:19

when we think about our daughter and

33:22

wanting to protect them from this and

33:24

wanting to make sure we don't expose them

33:26

to that. And really,

33:29

in a lot of ways, a lot of the things

33:31

that we're doing with our sons

33:34

is replicating and is gonna

33:37

continue to replicate the mistreatment and

33:39

marginalization of women and other

33:41

folks, queer folks especially.

33:43

So I really felt like in terms of

33:46

thinking about

33:47

what can my contribution to this

33:49

be as, you know, a

33:52

guy in hip hop for a long time.

33:54

I've been a hip hop writer for a

33:56

long time. I'm the co-host

33:58

of this podcast.

33:59

the answer to me was pretty

34:02

plain. It was like

34:04

thinking about

34:05

what it is that I'm giving

34:08

and gifting to the next generation, you

34:11

know? And I think the best way to do that is

34:13

by focusing more on my

34:15

son and making sure that

34:18

I don't, you know, replicate all

34:20

of the

34:21

kind of built-in misogyny and sexism

34:25

that kind of comes with the culture

34:27

and with, you know, culture at large, because it's not

34:29

just hip hop, obviously, like you said

34:31

earlier. No, most certainly not. Yeah,

34:34

so that was kind of the inspiration

34:36

for that episode, for sure. Okay,

34:40

let's take another break here, and then there's other things

34:42

I want to talk with you about. If you're just joining

34:44

us, my guest is Rodney Carmichael and

34:47

Sydney Madden, hosts of the NPR Hip Hop

34:49

Podcast, Louder Than a Riot. We'll

34:51

be right back after a short break. This is Fresh

34:54

Air.

34:54

This message comes from NPR sponsor, Carvana.

34:57

Carvana has made it easy to sell your

34:59

car. Just enter your license plate or

35:01

VIN, answer a few questions, and they'll

35:03

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it's good for up to seven days. Visit carvana.com

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to get an instant offer today.

35:11

I'd like to end by asking you to choose

35:14

a current or recent recording

35:17

that you love, a hip hop recording that you love,

35:19

that makes you really excited about the present

35:22

and future of hip hop. Sydney,

35:25

you want to start?

35:26

Yes, okay. So

35:28

as we said earlier, the girlies

35:31

are really running things in rap right now. The precursors

35:33

to everything influential, everything popping. And

35:37

one of my favorite tracks that's come out in

35:40

the last year, I think it actually came out last

35:42

fall, is Tomorrow Too, which

35:44

is by the Memphis rapper,

35:47

Glorilla, with a feature

35:49

from Cardi B. So first of all, Cardi

35:51

B has been on a legendary

35:54

feature run right now in the

35:56

last few years. And this Memphis

35:59

and Bronx mashup.

35:59

is just such a great

36:02

calling card for cross-cultural

36:05

collaborations and showing

36:07

where it can be catapulted to.

36:10

It works so beautifully. The beat

36:12

is sparse. It has this sinister

36:14

piano to it. It's quotable.

36:17

It's aspirational. And

36:19

it's a whole mantra. I mean, I don't

36:22

care about my credit score. I could be up tomorrow, okay? I

36:24

don't care what you say about me today. The sun is gonna shine

36:26

tomorrow. I'm good, you know? It's

36:28

one of those songs that you cannot

36:30

be mad at after listening to. And

36:33

it's heavy in my rotation and

36:35

it will be forever. All right, let's hear

36:37

it.

36:58

And we all look good. She said she my

37:00

opp, but I don't know her. I had to look her up. I

37:02

know that I'm rich, but I can't help it. I'm hurt

37:04

as fuck. I've been on these b****s next

37:06

so long, sometimes I'm a fuckin' star. I can put

37:09

you in my bed. You might wish me death tomorrow.

37:12

Be on d*** today, sing every word of up tomorrow. That's

37:15

still got cases open. Keep your mouth shut

37:17

tomorrow. Play with me today, then get some

37:19

sleep.

37:19

You know it's up tomorrow. Okay,

37:21

so that was Sydney Madden's pick for a song that's

37:23

making her excited about the

37:25

present and future of hip-hop. Rodney

37:27

Carmichael, your turn. Can you choose something

37:29

for us?

37:30

Yeah, so I'm gonna pick a song from

37:33

an album that dropped earlier in August.

37:35

It's by the artist No Name, and

37:37

the name of the song is Namesake.

37:40

And I like this song because

37:43

she is calling out everybody, including

37:46

herself, in terms of how

37:49

they are active participants

37:51

in capitalism. And when I say everybody,

37:54

I'm talking about some of the top names in the business,

37:57

you know, from Jay-Z and

37:59

Beyond. Beyonce and Rihanna, Kendrick

38:02

Lamar. And like I said, she name

38:04

checks herself too

38:06

for performing at Coachella.

38:08

But the thing about this song that

38:10

I really like is it shows that

38:12

hip hop

38:14

can still be a counter-cultural force,

38:17

you know? Because

38:19

it takes a lot to be an artist of

38:21

no names, caliber,

38:22

and to go against

38:25

some of the biggest names in the industry.

38:28

And really going against the industry and calling the industry

38:31

out while you're in the

38:33

industry. That's a hard

38:35

challenge. And it really, to me, it resonates

38:38

with a lot of the spirit of

38:40

what hip hop

38:41

was in its infancy

38:43

when it really felt like this revolutionary

38:46

art form. Well,

38:48

let's go out with that. So before

38:50

we do, I want to thank you both. Rodney

38:52

Carmichael, Sydney Madden, thank you so much

38:54

for joining us. And thank you for the podcast,

38:57

Louder Than a Riot. Thanks

38:59

so much, Terry. We really appreciate

39:01

it. So Rodney Carmichael and

39:03

Sydney Madden host the

39:06

NPR hip hop podcast Louder

39:08

Than a Riot. And here's No Name.

39:10

Yo, I never need no man. I got a little bit

39:13

of love and a couple of friends pitching me rolling up the

39:15

wood. And that's how I'm sitting. Yo, I never

39:17

need no, no, no. Yo, I never need no

39:20

man. I got a little bit of love and a couple of friends

39:22

pitching me rolling up the wood. And that's how I'm sitting.

39:24

Yo, I never need no, no, no. No

39:26

name, where's

39:26

your cane? We can stand in the rain, maintain a

39:28

good life. We can fly, play, tame, same day. The air

39:31

strikes, strike down our rain. I ran into the

39:33

house with a blunt in my hand. Let's smoke. I don't

39:35

want to see death no more. Let's fight. They got the

39:37

devil hiding in plain sight. That's you, that's me. The

39:39

whole world is culpable. Why I can place and see

39:41

flow to both the most.

39:42

I don't really get it. Y'all ain't really with it. I eat

39:44

the rich. That's Namesake from No Name's

39:47

new album, Sundial. Rodney

39:49

Carmichael and Sydney Madden host the

39:51

NPR hip hop podcast Louder Than

39:53

a Riot. We have more hip

39:55

hop interviews coming up before this 50th

39:57

anniversary month ends.

39:59

This Wednesday we plan to feature an interview with Justin

40:02

Tinsley, author of a new book about Biggie

40:04

Smalls. Next Monday, through

40:07

Labor Day, we're doing a History of Hip

40:09

Hop series featuring interviews from

40:11

our archive with several foundational

40:13

hip hop artists, including Grandmaster

40:16

Flash, Melly Mel, Ice-T, Darryl

40:18

McDaniels of Run-DMC,

40:20

Queen Latifah, De La Soul, The Beastie

40:22

Boys, Andre 3000, Questlove,

40:25

Jay-Z, and more.

40:27

Before we take a short break, our rock critic

40:29

Ken Tucker will review a new album by the

40:31

group Bush Tetris, which is fronted

40:34

by two women. That was pretty rare when

40:36

the band was founded in 1979.

40:39

This is Fresh Air.

40:40

This message comes from NPR sponsor, Carvana.

40:43

Carvana has made it easy to sell your

40:45

car. Just enter your license plate or

40:47

VIN, answer a few questions, and they'll

40:49

give you a real offer in seconds, and

40:51

it's good for up to seven days. Visit carvana.com

40:54

to get an instant offer today.

40:57

Bush Tetris is a rock band that formed

40:59

in 1979 in New York City at the height of the punk

41:03

era. It was the rare band to be led

41:05

by two women, Pat Place and Cynthia

41:07

Slay. The band was known for its

41:09

abrasive yet danceable sound.

41:11

Now the group has released a new album called

41:14

They Live in My Head,

41:15

and rock critic Ken Tucker says it's as inventive

41:18

and vital as anything the Bush Tetris

41:20

have ever made.

41:53

In the 1970s music scene that gave

41:55

birth to this band, Bush Tetris were

41:57

outsiders among outsiders.

41:59

The Tetras were part of the so-called

42:02

no wave scene in New York City, a

42:04

reaction to the punk and new wave bands

42:07

that, rather amazingly, some

42:09

found not loud or chaotic enough.

42:12

Guitarist Pat Place, who'd been a member of

42:14

the ultimate no wave outfit James Chance

42:16

and the Contortions, formed Bush

42:19

Tetras as a deafening but danceable

42:21

alternative. The Tetras' trademark

42:23

song was its glorious complaint about

42:25

obnoxious men called Too Many

42:28

Creeps.

42:32

I just don't wanna go

42:35

out in the streets no more

42:39

I just don't wanna go

42:42

out in the streets no more Because

42:46

these people they give me,

42:48

they give me the creeps anymore Because

42:53

these people they give me, they

42:55

give me the creeps anymore

43:00

Bush Tetras never had much commercial success,

43:02

but they enjoyed enough of a following to continue

43:05

releasing singles and EPs here and

43:07

there, playing in various configurations,

43:10

all of them organized around Pat Place, singer

43:12

Cynthia Slay and drummer Dee Pop.

43:16

Pop died in 2021 at the age of 65.

43:19

They Live in My Head is only Bush

43:22

Tetras' fourth full-length album. Producer

43:25

Steve Shelley, long-time member of

43:27

second generation noise band Sonic

43:29

Youth, is playing drums. The

43:32

band members are in their late 60s and early

43:34

70s, and this album is haunted

43:36

by the past. That's one meaning of

43:38

the phrase, They Live in My Head, Memories,

43:42

People Who've Passed Away. The

43:44

title song starts off with an unusual

43:46

quietness that ramps up quickly

43:49

in sound and fury.

43:56

They Live in My Head

44:01

When they enter my dreams,

44:05

life is

44:08

not all that

44:10

it seems And

44:13

you, you're

44:17

the type of guy That

44:22

thinks he's got everything

44:25

But you don't

44:27

have someone like

44:30

me When

44:34

they live in my head, they enter

44:37

my dreams Life is not all that it seems

44:40

When they live in my head,

44:42

they enter my dreams Life is not all that

44:45

it seems Life is not all

44:48

that it seems Life is

44:52

not all that it seems

45:00

But I

45:03

I came to this album with modest expectations.

45:07

The Tetras had already had their moment of rediscovery

45:09

a couple of years ago with the release

45:11

of a career-spanning box set called Rhythm

45:14

and Paranoia, The Best of Bush Tetras. For

45:17

most bands, what follows after that are one

45:19

or two nostalgia-laced reunions

45:22

to squeeze a bit more cash out of the remaining renewed

45:24

interest. Thus, the energy and force

45:27

of They Live in My Head, its urgency

45:29

to get some

45:30

things said and make some different

45:32

sounds, was a very pleasant surprise. At

45:35

this point, I'm

45:38

inclined to think that it's the best, most sustained work the

45:40

Tetras have ever done. I've

45:43

been born into the night

45:46

Bathed in warm moonlight Borrowed

45:53

with a sense of break-

46:01

So strange

46:03

that things have come to this So

46:08

strange that

46:10

things have come to this In

46:12

the midst of constant itch

46:15

We must resist their contolits

46:18

They've come to this That's

46:31

so strange on which Cynthia Slay sings

46:34

How many times can we repeat

46:36

the past? Well, turns out you can do it a number

46:38

of times In different ways

46:41

and make it all matter As Bush

46:43

Tetras are doing now

46:45

Ken Tucker reviewed They Live in My Head by Bush

46:47

Tetras Tomorrow

46:50

on Fresh Air, my girl,

46:54

Drew Gilpin Faust Her new memoir

46:56

is about growing up in Virginia's Shenandoah

46:58

Valley where she was groomed to be a proper

47:00

Southern lady, which she resisted

47:03

every step of the way. Her grandmother

47:05

identified with the Confederacy. Faust

47:08

rebelled against the norms of racism and gender inequality

47:10

she grew

47:11

up with and became a student activist and

47:13

a civil rights and education activist.

47:16

She was a member of the United States' Democratic

47:18

Party. She's written several books about the Civil War.

47:22

I hope you'll join us. Our

47:24

interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy

47:26

Salat, Phyllis

47:28

Myers, Sam Brigger,

47:29

Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman,

47:31

Ann Marie Bildonado, Theresa Madden, Lea

47:34

Challenor, Seth Kelly, and Susan Yacunde. Our

47:37

digital media producer is Molly Seavey-Nesper.

47:40

Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our

47:43

co-host, Susan Yacunde, is a director of the show. I'm

47:46

Terri Gross.