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WHY's fresh air, and

0:24

its commitment to sharing ideas and

0:26

encouraging meaningful conversation. This

0:28

is fresh air. I'm Terry Gross.

0:31

My guess, Mark Maron, has a new HBO

0:33

comedy special called from bleak to

0:35

Dark'. And if the title isn't enough

0:37

of a clue about the tone of the show, here's

0:39

how it starts. I

0:41

don't

0:41

wanna be negative, but I

0:44

don't think anything's ever gonna get better

0:46

ever again. I

0:52

won't bump anybody out, but I think this is pretty

0:54

much the way it's gonna be for however

0:56

long it takes us to polish his planet off.

1:00

There's a lot of bleak subjects Maron deals

1:02

with like climate change, threats from

1:04

the far right, antisemitism, and

1:07

his toxic relationship with his father who

1:09

now has dementia. The darkest

1:11

part of his life has been the death of his girlfriend,

1:13

the TV and movie director, Lynn Shelton,

1:16

before becoming a couple They'd worked together.

1:18

She directed episodes of his series Maron,

1:21

the series he co starred in Glow, and

1:23

the movie sort of trust. She

1:25

died in twenty twenty unexpectedly of

1:27

a previously undiagnosed case of

1:29

acute myeloid leukemia. From

1:32

bleak to dark as Maryann's fifth comedy

1:34

special, his first for HBO. He's

1:36

famous as a comic, but in the past few years,

1:39

he's been acting in more movies, MTV,

1:41

including Glow, where he played the coach

1:43

of a women's wrestling team, Joker,

1:45

where he was the producer of a late night show

1:48

hosted by Robert DeNiro's character,

1:50

and respect, playing Jerry Wexler,

1:52

the famous Atlantic Records producer who

1:54

helped Aritha translate her sound

1:56

and style into solo music hits. And

1:59

now, Maron co starring in the film

2:01

to Leslie as the manager of a

2:03

motel who helps a woman addicted

2:06

to alcohol. Maron

2:08

podcast WTF is the first one

2:10

on one podcast episode inducted

2:12

into America's national recording registry.

2:16

Dark', welcome back to Fresh Air. It is so good to

2:18

talk with you again, and I have to start by saying

2:20

I really love your

2:21

special.

2:22

Well, it's good to talk to you too, Terry. It's been

2:24

a while. It seems to me that

2:26

was not an easy special to

2:29

do. I mean, what's the old expression comedy?

2:31

Is tragedy plus time? So

2:34

when and why did you start thinking it's

2:36

time to turn the worst thing that's ever happened

2:38

to you, the death of Lynn Shelton, into

2:41

something you wanted to talk about in

2:43

a comedy show. Did you feel like if

2:45

you didn't talk about it, you'd be hiding

2:48

an essential thing about who you are now?

2:52

Yeah. Of course. It was already

2:54

public, and and I already addressed

2:56

it on my podcast in a very painful broadcast

2:58

that I chose to do days after

3:00

she passed away, you know, just out of respect

3:02

for what we do and out of respect for her.

3:04

And and and it was kinda

3:07

crazy. So if you listen to my podcast

3:09

and and you were put through that

3:11

raw uncontrollable grief

3:14

that I chose to make public, you

3:17

knew what was going on. And and then

3:19

over time, Yeah.

3:21

I mean, I felt like it would be wrong.

3:24

I mean, I because there was part of me that wanted

3:26

to share the experience, of

3:28

grief or my my

3:30

feelings that I had within grief

3:33

because I thought it would help people. I I wasn't

3:36

it really was something more selfless than

3:38

I think I'd done. I think there is not

3:40

a very broader public cultural dialogue

3:43

around grief. And around loss. And

3:46

it's something that everyone's going to deal with.

3:48

Everyone is going to deal with

3:49

it. You said that when things get

3:51

hard, you go mystical. What have you done

3:54

to get through this period? You're not religious. You've

3:56

been sober since two thousand nine, so you can't have

3:58

a shot or glass of wine or cocaine.

4:01

And during much of the past two years,

4:04

you couldn't even socialize and see friends

4:07

because of the COVID lockdown.

4:09

So what helped you get

4:11

through the initial

4:14

period of

4:14

grief? The the rawest period

4:17

of grief? What did you turn to you? Well,

4:19

it was so isolating because, you

4:21

know, sadly, you know,

4:24

her and I weren't together long enough publicly

4:28

or or in our in our relationship.

4:30

We've known each other for years, but as

4:33

as partners to I didn't know

4:35

her family, really. You

4:38

know, I'd met them at film festivals once or

4:40

twice, a couple of them but but didn't know

4:42

them. There was no relationship there. And it was

4:44

just I mean, what

4:46

I was managing when that

4:48

happened is, like, if I hadn't asked

4:51

her, you know, I I they were

4:53

taking her away, you know, in the

4:55

ambulance when she she collapsed,

4:58

after really a very quick it

5:00

was not even it was like a week of of,

5:03

you know, extreme extreme

5:05

flu symptoms. And and when they

5:07

were taking her away, I said, you know, give me your

5:09

phone, and she said, like, I need my phone. And I said, well,

5:11

give me the code. And I don't know why, but I

5:14

she gave me the code. And and if she

5:16

hadn't done that, I don't know what would have

5:18

happened. I mean, they because she was unconscious

5:20

by the time she got to the hospital and she was fighting

5:22

for her life the rest of that day, and I

5:24

had to get on the phone with an

5:26

intensive care nurse and say,

5:28

well, here's the code, you know, get me

5:30

some shout ins because I don't know

5:33

her people. And when she went into the hospital,

5:35

she listed me as the point of contact, because she didn't

5:37

think she was gonna, you know, die. But

5:40

I felt it necessary to have her her family

5:42

really to to take the lead in in handling

5:45

a lot of this stuff. So initially,

5:48

leading up to her passing was just

5:50

devastating. And then my brother came out

5:53

And, you know, he

5:55

stayed for, like, two weeks, and we had to, you know,

5:57

go through her stuff. So that was devastating

6:00

but oddly engaging and and somewhat

6:02

distracting in the midst of, you know,

6:05

just being shattered and and crying,

6:07

you know, all the time and on and off.

6:09

And then we also had some sort of shiva

6:12

experience happening like the next day

6:14

after she passed, Mikayla Watkins had

6:16

put together like a Zoom thing where people

6:18

it was almost too soon in a way and very

6:20

awkward. And and, you know, it was there

6:23

that I started to feel a certain insecurity

6:25

around my relationship with her because there were people

6:27

that have known her for decades. She has you

6:29

know, AAA husband and a son

6:31

and all these old friends. And I just felt

6:33

like, you know, like, I'm I'm just like, I

6:35

don't I didn't I didn't have that long with her, and

6:37

and I'm the guy that she died with and it felt

6:39

like a horrible weight and

6:42

it just added to the

6:44

sadness and and but

6:47

but ultimately, what

6:50

helped me in isolation and

6:52

helped me deal with things? Is that my

6:54

community reached out in a way that I never

6:56

thought because it was public. And

6:59

I got, you know, I got phone calls from so

7:01

many people that, you know,

7:03

I barely knew you know,

7:05

in in in comedy

7:07

and and show business and and

7:09

everybody really, you

7:11

know, reached out. They sent food some

7:14

people kind of came over

7:16

despite the COVID and, you know, some of

7:18

my, you know, I remember that Alison Brie

7:20

from from Glow, she came over and and

7:23

she, you know, we it was

7:25

it was a weird time because, you know,

7:27

there there was this sense that even hugging

7:29

was somehow life threatening, you know. Yeah.

7:32

And also, I I got into the habit of

7:34

doing these Instagram lives every day

7:36

where where I felt a a need to have

7:38

an audience or to engage because there was no

7:40

way there's no one I couldn't I was

7:42

alone over here. So that became

7:44

sort of essential and peculiar because

7:47

I was doing basically some version of

7:49

a morning show from my

7:51

porch every day. Sometimes

7:54

'From an hour and a half a day, I would

7:56

have, you know, five, six hundred live

7:58

viewers and, you know, we would play music. I

8:00

would be angry. I'd talk about politics. I'd

8:02

talk about grief. You know, I would, you know,

8:05

we you know, play records and, you know, play

8:07

with the cats. And and it I think

8:09

it worked two ways and it also was

8:12

the beginning of the

8:14

process of understanding showing

8:16

up for other people without knowing it. Is that

8:18

know, it is the middle. No one was going out, and I

8:20

had this strange audience of other

8:23

people who were alone in their homes. And

8:25

they they became sort of regulars,

8:28

and they they became very

8:29

grateful, and it became a community. And

8:32

that sort of, like, in a lot of ways,

8:34

you know, got

8:34

me through oddly. Did

8:36

you do things to try to, like,

8:39

send to yourself or calm yourself that

8:41

you'd previously been dismissive of?

8:43

Sure. I I tried meditating. I got

8:45

into routines around

8:48

that. Ultimately,

8:50

it was just it was about sort of staying

8:52

busy and staying engaged and talking to

8:54

people, you know, like my my buddy Sam

8:56

Lipson, you know, with him and I established this

8:58

sort of daily phone call and

9:01

it was sort of a beautiful thing, you know, right from

9:03

the beginning, like, soon after

9:05

she passed him and I would talk on the

9:07

phone every night, you know, 'From, like, at least

9:09

an hour, you know, to keep that connection.

9:11

And I had I had other friends that I

9:13

was in touch

9:14

with, but, you know, Sam really stepped up and and

9:16

we still we still do it really, not as often,

9:18

but pretty frequently. So

9:21

you live alone. And

9:23

you've you've lived alone a long time. And

9:25

I I know even during part of your relationship

9:27

with with Lynn before before

9:30

she passed that you were sometimes living

9:32

alone but being gather most of the time,

9:34

but you had your own

9:35

places. Are you good at being alone?

9:38

Do

9:38

you love it? Yeah. Uh-huh. Talk to

9:40

me little bit about that. About what

9:42

the value is for you of being alone

9:45

and what your need is to connect with people

9:47

and and how you balance all that. I

9:49

I don't know, but to, you know, I've just

9:52

been so fortunate in not having children.

9:54

And and so fortunate in

9:57

in in somehow turning my career

10:00

around at some point that I'm I'm I'm relatively

10:02

financially secure. And also

10:05

I've been through enough relationships and through

10:07

enough things to to kind of know myself,

10:09

you know, pretty well at this point. I imagine,

10:11

though, that yeah.

10:14

Who knows would have happened with Lynn and

10:16

I. But it was really the first time in my life I

10:18

had sort of relaxed into,

10:20

you know, what was an age appropriate relationship,

10:23

was a relationship based on respect and attraction

10:25

and and caring. And and,

10:27

you know, when she was here, she was spending

10:29

a lot of time here because it was the pandemic, and

10:31

it was nice to have a sort of

10:33

home base I imagine

10:36

that her and I in my fantasy

10:38

or or what I thought at the time that I'd really

10:40

found, you know, someone to

10:43

spend spend the rest of my life with. But

10:45

but who knows? So but

10:48

but for me, like, people ask me why

10:50

don't you get a a personal assistant? I'm like, Well,

10:53

what would I do with my life? I

10:55

mean, I I like going the

10:57

post office. I like going the record store.

10:59

I'll shop at two or three supermarkets a

11:01

day. Sometimes I'll book, you know, for hours,

11:04

just for myself or or for the

11:06

the woman I'm seeing now. I like

11:08

doing little things around the house. I

11:11

play guitar, I listen to records. All

11:13

I know, and and then I'm interviewing people

11:15

for the podcast is that by the end of any

11:17

day, I feel like I've had

11:19

a pretty full day by myself and

11:22

a pretty satisfying day generally by

11:24

myself. I just engage

11:27

with life. I like running errands. I

11:29

like going on hikes. don't know. It

11:31

doesn't it feels totally

11:33

satisfying. So I don't

11:35

know what that means about me. I can't,

11:37

you know, present myself as some

11:40

emotional wizard or some psychologically

11:43

stable person in

11:45

terms of relationships. But

11:47

I I just I

11:50

do a joke. Did I do it? I don't

11:52

think did it in the special where I say, look,

11:54

I know, you know, I'm self centered

11:56

person. I know I'm I'm over sensitive.

11:58

I'm a little paranoid. I'm not great at intimacy.

12:01

I know I can I'm prone to anger sometimes.

12:04

I know all these things about myself. I don't know

12:06

why I would need someone in my house telling me

12:08

them every couple of days. So

12:11

So you dropped in that answer, that you feel lucky

12:14

that you didn't have children. And

12:16

in your special, you talk about not having children

12:18

and that you never really wanted them and you say,

12:21

if you have kids, I can't begin to

12:23

tell you how great it would be if

12:26

you didn't. And I thought that

12:28

was really funny. But I was wondering when you wrote

12:30

that, did you think, like, I'm going to lose every

12:32

parent in my audience if I say

12:34

this? No, because

12:36

I I really believe, as I said,

12:38

I think, in the next line or two, that that

12:40

paradigm is sort of shifting in

12:43

that the people that don't

12:45

have kids. We're sort of looked at as sad,

12:47

you know, freakish people. But now, I can't

12:50

imagine what it would be like to have kids and try

12:52

to you know, give them any advice to

12:54

navigate this world that you know, most adults

12:56

don't even understand. And I don't I

12:58

I just I find that

13:01

it must be difficult and it must be

13:03

difficult every day. And and for

13:05

me, when I say that, I think it gets

13:07

a good laugh. I don't think I'm losing an audience.

13:09

I think that every parent, I

13:12

would say, probably eighty or ninety percent of

13:14

them really need relief from

13:17

parenting. And the fantasy of not having

13:19

kids on any given day is probably, you

13:21

know, pretty exciting and exciting prospect.

13:24

Not a possibility any longer, but

13:26

an exciting idea to to to have

13:28

a moment of of

13:29

reprieve with. When

13:31

you look at your friends who do have kids, what

13:33

do you think you may be missing out on?

13:36

If anything. I think that

13:38

there is something that, you

13:40

know, stifles my emotional growth because

13:42

I don't have kids. And I

13:44

think that there's something about the selflessness

13:47

necessary and the type of love

13:49

that's available there that I'll never experience.

13:52

But I have sort of

13:54

a difficult time experiencing love with humans

13:57

in general. And so So,

14:00

like, I'm still kind of, like, trying to let

14:03

myself, you know, love in a way

14:05

just just to have a relationship. But

14:08

I I'm so terrified of it

14:10

and guarded in certain

14:11

ways. I mean, the the people that really get the best

14:13

of me are are audiences that I walk away

14:15

from.

14:15

Yeah. But that's that's crazy. You

14:17

know, like, because you're so intimate with audiences,

14:19

you reveal so much about yourself. But

14:21

it sounds like you have trouble doing that in real

14:24

life with somebody who you're actually

14:26

trying to be intimate

14:27

with. Trying to have an intimate relationship with.

14:29

You know, it's Dark'. And I do it with guests

14:31

too. It's like, really, if I didn't do the podcast

14:34

or comedy, I would have very little emotional

14:36

life.

14:38

So that yeah. Why why does it need

14:40

to be mediated

14:42

through you know, like a microphone

14:44

or or a

14:45

stage. That's one way to look at it. That

14:47

that it's the mediation. That's the benefit.

14:49

I I don't know. The benefit might be they leave.

14:52

So so I'm not sure

14:54

I'm not I'm not sure it's the public nature

14:56

of the expressing vulnerability, but that like,

14:59

okay, nice nice meeting you

15:01

people. I'm gonna go. Yeah.

15:03

Kinda like nice meeting you and don't really

15:05

know know who you are and you don't really

15:07

know who I am. Exactly. And we don't really have access

15:09

to each

15:09

other. That's right. This has been great. Good

15:12

night. Yeah. Yeah. Good night. I'm glad you

15:14

got so much out of that. I'm gonna go spend the other

15:16

twenty three hours of my day. But

15:19

But no, look, man. I mean, I

15:22

I'm I I am sort of getting

15:24

older and and something is giving

15:26

way and and I am trying to

15:29

to be a little more able

15:34

to allow myself to be

15:36

open and vulnerable. But I, you know, there's

15:38

a problem because I don't have yeah.

15:41

I grew up with with very

15:43

faulty emotional boundaries So

15:45

I couldn't keep anybody out. And, you know, and

15:47

my sense of self was threatened, you

15:50

know, for most of my life, you know, either

15:52

by, you know, my parents' needs or

15:54

or the relationship that I got into that were

15:56

destructive. So it's I really had

15:58

a shutdown at some point

16:00

in a fairly conscious way. And

16:03

now that sort of giving away and certainly

16:05

losing somebody you love in

16:09

the way that I did and that was really a different

16:11

type of love for me is kind of, you

16:13

know, force something open.

16:18

I don't know what exactly it

16:20

is, but you certainly look at life differently

16:22

when somebody passes like

16:25

that and and does so tragically.

16:28

And and and you realize how, like, impermanent

16:30

things When somebody die suddenly

16:33

and unexpectedly, you're you're totally

16:35

unprepared for it, So

16:37

did you make changes in your life after

16:39

thinking about how

16:42

how vulnerable people are and how

16:45

fragile life is and how impermanent? Sure.

16:49

I I think a a lot more about,

16:52

you know,

16:53

random ways I can die. Oh,

16:55

that's helpful. Yeah. Yeah.

16:58

Congratulations. That's just what you need. I

17:00

just really is already paranoid. Yeah.

17:03

I needed to grow like that, Terry. I needed to

17:05

really expand my imagination. So

17:07

every moment awake

17:10

is terrifying. Well,

17:13

I I think certainly coming through

17:15

it and and living

17:17

with the grief I do

17:20

believe that I'd like to find some joy.

17:22

I've I've really put a lot more thought

17:24

into, you know, stopping the compulsive

17:26

nature of how I work to live

17:29

in a way that's present and and has

17:31

some happiness in it because I don't know

17:33

that I I ever really did that.

17:35

So in that way, I think

17:38

that it makes me little more open

17:40

and little more available for

17:42

for some joy if if

17:44

if I'm capable of it. Because

17:46

Lynn was like like Lynn was

17:48

just exuded a sort

17:51

of positivity and joy and

17:53

was so charismatic. And

17:55

and and so kind of like all

17:58

about, you know, just living

18:00

and and showing up

18:03

and just excited, and she was

18:05

such a great laffer, you know.

18:07

And the fact that,

18:09

like, she loved me

18:11

because I didn't believe it for a long time. You know,

18:13

I really fought it. I fought her on that.

18:16

And but she

18:18

kind of persisted and and broke

18:20

me down and and I finally accepted

18:22

it. But I don't

18:24

think I'd be doing some of the stuff I'm doing

18:27

without her and my life. And and it

18:29

just so so happens that that some

18:31

of those things are are some of the things that

18:33

are you know, kind of, you

18:36

know, bringing me joy now. And I and I don't

18:38

think I would have felt confident to do

18:40

them without without her in my

18:42

life. What

18:42

kind of things are bringing you joy?

18:45

Well, you know, playing music

18:47

Yeah. Because you're performing now with your band.

18:49

Yeah. Didn't used to perform. I

18:51

was terrified of it and it was it made

18:53

me feel very vulnerable. But, like, I I got

18:55

some guys together. Jimmy Vovino plays with me

18:58

sometimes. Ned Brower Jonathan

19:00

Schwartzill, you know, these guys who

19:03

Flanagan over at Largo hooked me up with,

19:05

and and we, you know, we do shows there. You know, we've

19:07

done several shows where I kinda play

19:09

covers and sing, and and these guys

19:12

are are great musicians. And and it's just

19:14

I don't know. You know, it's made a big difference in my

19:16

life, but like Lynn, was

19:18

always telling me to play. We used to sing

19:20

together her and I sometimes, and we were

19:22

gonna do it more. And and

19:25

she loved it when I I used to sit in, like,

19:27

my friend Dean Delray used to do a evening

19:29

of ACDC once a year and I and

19:31

I would go jam. But she always was like, you gotta

19:33

play you gotta play more. And and, you

19:35

know, and now I'm doing it, and I really think it was

19:37

her belief and and her pushing me

19:40

to make me feel confident. And it's the same with acting,

19:42

you know. I I don't think that I

19:46

would have been as,

19:48

you know, I I don't think I would have had the courage

19:50

to do the acting in the way that I'm doing it.

19:53

Without Lynn's belief

19:55

in me. And even comedy, I mean, you know, Terry,

19:57

she directed the the two specials

19:59

before this one. And

20:02

you know, I trusted her implicitly with with

20:04

everything, you you know, I fought her sometimes as

20:07

a as a director because I'm a baby. But

20:10

but, you

20:10

know, she you know, she directed and

20:13

and informed n

20:15

times fund and and too

20:17

real, which were the two Netflix

20:20

specials before this HBO special.

20:23

Mark Marron's new HBO comedy special

20:25

bleak to dark is streaming on

20:28

HBO

20:28

Max. The show's theme music is performed

20:30

by Mark's band with Mark on guitar.

20:33

Here it is.

20:57

After a break, I'll be back with Mark Maron,

20:59

and Kent Tucker will review the new volume

21:01

of Columbia Records official release

21:04

of Bob Dillon bootleg recording. I'm

21:07

Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

21:12

This message comes from NPR sponsor,

21:15

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21:49

planet money, we think explaining economics

21:52

explains the world. That's why

21:54

we've broken down the price of gallon of gas,

21:56

started a music label and brought an

21:58

old superhero back to life. Listen

22:01

now to the Planet Money podcast from NPR.

22:07

Let's get back to my interview with Mark Maron.

22:09

His new HBO comedy special is

22:11

called Dark' Marron from bleak to

22:13

dark. It's streaming on HBO Max.

22:16

Maron has also been doing stand up comedy

22:18

for decades, but he's also now becoming

22:20

known for his acting. He played a version

22:22

of himself in the series, Maron, Co

22:24

starred in the series Glow as the coach of a

22:26

women's wrestling team. In Joker,

22:28

he played the producer of a late night TV

22:31

show hosted by Daenero's character In

22:33

the aretha biopic respect, he played

22:35

Jerry Wexler, and now he co stars

22:38

into Leslie. His new special

22:40

is very funny about very dark things,

22:42

climate change, supremism, anti

22:44

semitism, his toxic relationship with

22:46

his father, and the death of his girlfriend,

22:49

Lynn Shelton, in the spring of twenty twenty.

22:52

So I wanna talk with you about being Jewish but

22:54

not religious, and you have a really funny

22:56

bit about being Jewish in

22:58

your comedy show that I wanna play.

23:02

I guess I should make it clear that we have found

23:04

recently that there is actually something

23:06

that brings most people

23:07

together. It's anti Semitism. And

23:12

yeah.

23:14

And I'm saying that as a Jew. And as

23:17

it's you, I'm saying that we will

23:19

replace you. It's

23:28

It's happening. We're all part of it. We're doing

23:30

it. We're all doing our bit. You

23:33

you there's an app now we can replace you with.

23:36

And it's a commission thing. And how we get a

23:38

certain kickback

23:40

for the number of you replaced. I

23:43

talked to my brother last week, he replaced, like, seventy

23:45

six last week. And

23:47

every quarter, we get a check from global

23:50

control HQ. It's

23:52

got the cool logo with the planet and

23:54

the star David,

23:56

gold. Leaf around it, signed

23:58

by George Soros. It's

24:02

kinda cool. It's almost framable, but we

24:04

cash him. So And

24:08

I don't know. Like, I'm I'm not religious. I'm a

24:10

Jew. So And

24:17

there's a difference between Jews and Christians. Obviously, I

24:19

mean, I think if the relationship with God is different

24:21

if you look at the the the

24:23

testament, the old testament, it seemed like the

24:25

relationship with Jews in God was basically

24:28

what?

24:30

What what do you want me to do? Now.

24:36

Alright. Alright. Don't yell. Don't yell.

24:41

I love that. think that is so funny.

24:44

And I gotta be honest with you, Terry. I think I've been

24:46

doing some version of

24:48

these jokes since I've been doing comedy

24:50

and and since it's so

24:53

weird to me because for years, I

24:55

didn't even identify as a Jew on stage because

24:57

I didn't think there was a way to do it that wasn't

25:00

stereotyping. That, you know, all I

25:02

could see is, you know, like, you know,

25:04

like you know, like, Jacky Mason sort

25:06

like, a Jew when he goes on vacation, just

25:08

needs a place to sit up, you know. So

25:10

it's, like, I can't do that. And I can't but

25:12

all my heroes were were were those guys,

25:15

not him particularly, but Jewish comics.

25:17

And then at some point, it just became about,

25:21

you know, going over the top with

25:23

what non Jews believed conspiratorily

25:26

Jews were up to. So this theme and

25:28

even in end times fun, it's always sort of

25:30

been there because I think it's important

25:32

to identify especially

25:36

in the face of of antisemitism being

25:39

normalized culturally as

25:41

something that just exists among

25:44

us and that's

25:45

that. So I get

25:47

I get aggravated. And everybody's

25:50

upset. Like, you don't have to be Jewish about

25:52

Jews will not replace us. I mean,

25:54

it's just part of a larger trend

25:56

of, like, the normalizing of hatred

25:59

and racism and sexism

26:03

Yeah. Did your parents talk to you about anti

26:05

Semitism and were you dismissive because

26:07

you didn't necessarily see any around

26:09

you? Well, I think, you know, it was

26:11

always sort of drilled

26:14

in. I mean, I did go to Hebrew

26:16

School. We were conservative Jews. I was

26:18

BarMets foot. And we did,

26:20

you know, we were shown those movies

26:23

of, you know, piles of hair and

26:25

and

26:26

Of a pile of some kits. Yeah. Yeah. So

26:30

it was it was it's always been in

26:32

there. And and the the few times that I'd

26:34

encountered it was usually at a

26:36

a non Jewish summer camp. Where

26:39

we all had to bring AAA

26:41

patent boots and were assigned a horse

26:43

and a

26:43

gun. So I

26:46

have that part of my Jewish

26:48

You were a sign of a horse and a gun? Yeah.

26:51

Well, they were shooting. We we learned I I can

26:53

I know how to work a a shotgun shell loader,

26:55

and I can shoot at twenty two pretty good?

26:58

I grew up around guns because New Mexico,

27:00

they they kinda came with the territory. But, yeah, I

27:02

did go to a camp where you had to you had

27:05

to bring the Stetson, you had to bring boots,

27:07

and you were assigned horse, and you were gonna

27:09

shoot guns, and tie flies, and

27:11

fish for trout. Yeah. I I did

27:13

that. A brush ranch baby.

27:15

Brush ranch. How did it feel?

27:18

Fine. But I also went to a Jewish

27:20

camp and I also went to a music camp. I I've always

27:22

lived in these two worlds, Terry. Like, I

27:24

I went to that camp one summer, and then

27:26

I went to a tennis camp. And my parents just

27:29

wanted us out of the house. They're they would send us

27:31

to two camps in a summer. But I've always

27:33

had these two parts of me.

27:35

Well, you know, you and I were in the same

27:38

episode of finding your roots

27:39

the Henry Lewis Gates PBS show in

27:42

which they trace your ancestry through the help

27:44

of your DNA and also through these great

27:46

genealogical experts, they

27:48

do a lot of deep research. And this

27:50

was basically, like, finding your roots due

27:53

edition. Yeah. Exactly. It

27:55

was Yumi and Jeff Goldblum and the

27:57

the theme of the show was it was

27:59

called Beyond the Pale and it referred

28:01

to the Pale of Settlement, which was basically

28:03

the really large ghetto during the Russian

28:06

Empire in which Jews were allowed to live. And

28:08

it included parts of what is now like Belarus

28:10

and Ukraine and Poland. And

28:12

that's where all of our grandparents were

28:14

from. Yeah. Me and Jeff Goldman.

28:16

Yeah. And

28:17

Rachel, I mean

28:18

Yeah. They

28:19

were able to track he said they were able to track

28:21

my paternal lineage back further

28:23

than they ever got into the pellet settlement.

28:26

And I I found your lineage, like, so interesting

28:28

because on one side, your

28:30

your great great grandfather worked in,

28:32

like, the oil business. And I'm thinking of the

28:34

oil business. It was an oil business.

28:37

So apparently, like peasants which

28:40

probably included Jews were

28:43

allowed to do things like slip

28:45

the oil in in wagons or

28:47

something. And the oil then was used to

28:49

let grease wagon wheels. It

28:51

was in Galizia.

28:53

Yeah. Yeah. And then on the other side

28:55

of your family, it sounds like your great grandfather was

28:57

something of a a scoundrel or

29:00

Yeah. And

29:00

and what was it in South Carolina or something?

29:02

South Carolina. Yeah. Yeah. And so

29:05

he was in business with his son and his

29:07

son sued him, and one the

29:09

sun won fifty thousand dollars. And then there were about,

29:11

like, a dozen other lawsuits against your great

29:13

great grandfather for things like horse

29:15

lebri and selling

29:18

liquor illegally. And

29:21

I I wonder what it was like for you to find

29:23

out that you had

29:23

a, quote, colorful past.

29:27

To me, like, it it it kind of filled in

29:29

the gaps around my father's bipolar

29:31

behavior. I'm like, oh, this

29:33

is where he got it. From his great, great

29:35

grandfather on his mother's side, you know.

29:38

Because it seemed like the the behavior, you

29:40

know, it wasn't like he was running around robbing bank.

29:42

But it all seemed like stuff that could happen

29:44

in a manic episode. So

29:46

I I decided to frame it that way.

29:48

Oh, yeah. I refer to

29:51

it in the

29:51

special, you know, that that my my

29:53

void started in the heart of

29:55

it. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well,

29:57

the idea is that, you you know, if you have

29:59

an emotional void where your where your heart

30:01

should be able pass down, you

30:03

know, through generations and I say my void,

30:06

you can track your void on twenty three and me.

30:08

I found out that my void began

30:10

in the in the chest of a tailor's wife in

30:12

Belarus in the eighteen

30:13

hundreds. It's a ninety nine point nine percent

30:15

Ashkenazi void

30:17

We've all

30:17

been sitting in it for an hour. Yeah. And

30:20

Ashkenazi is a branch of of

30:22

of Jews. Yeah. So yeah.

30:24

Yeah. No. No. That that was great. Okay. I need

30:26

to reintroduce you again. So here

30:28

it comes. My guest is Mark Maron, and his new

30:30

HBO comedy special is called bleak

30:33

to

30:33

dark. We'll be right back. This is fresh

30:35

air. This message comes from NPR

30:37

sponsor, Carvana. Carvana has

30:39

purchased over a million vehicles from

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or download the app to learn more.

30:55

At Planet Money, we think explaining economics

30:58

explains the world. That's why

31:00

we've broken down the price of a gallon of gas,

31:02

started a music label and brought an

31:04

old superhero back to life. Listen

31:06

now to the Planet Money podcast from NPR.

31:13

There's a story that you tell. In

31:17

oh, that actually, this was in one of our interviews

31:19

years

31:19

ago. I think

31:20

it was in the two thousand interview. What you

31:22

were telling a story on stage, a funny story

31:24

about somebody who seemed to have a very

31:26

unfortunate job. It was a miniature golf

31:29

TV show, and he was like -- Oh, yeah. -- the

31:31

host of it, you were thinking, like, how how awful

31:33

is this? Not even, like, golf. It's, like, miniature

31:36

golf. Yeah. And you and you make a joke about

31:38

who how he probably one home wanted to

31:40

kill

31:40

himself. Yeah. And somebody ran up

31:42

and tackled you on stage.

31:44

Yeah. And then was waiting for you afterwards

31:47

after the show and basically threatening

31:49

to beat you up. And what

31:51

you did was you put your arm around him,

31:54

took him aside, and

31:55

said, let's talk. And

31:57

you did. You talked. And you

31:59

resolved it. You asked him what was

32:01

so upsetting. He told you his brother had just

32:04

recently ended his life

32:06

by suicide. You told him

32:08

how upset you were to hear that.

32:11

He apologized to you, and you ended as,

32:13

like, to human beings being able to talk

32:15

it out. And I'm thinking with

32:17

all with, like, comics

32:20

being tackled on stage now, but also

32:23

just being canceled on Twitter. Like,

32:25

you can't take somebody on Twitter aside

32:27

and have a nice talk with them and resolve

32:29

it as like human to human. Somebody

32:32

cancels you on Twitter and then everybody retweets

32:34

it and suddenly everybody's canceling you

32:37

without any real human

32:39

interaction. So I

32:41

don't know. That's just my lead in into

32:43

wanting to get some of your thoughts about

32:46

cancellation and some of your friends being

32:48

canceled.

32:49

Yeah. I look,

32:51

I I don't it's scary ultimately,

32:55

especially you know, on Twitter,

32:57

you you know, if someone digs

32:59

up an old joke and it's taken out of

33:01

context --

33:02

Mhmm. -- and and some insanity

33:05

is created around it. Like,

33:07

look, I know that I'm saying a

33:09

lot of heavy stuff, you know, about,

33:12

you know, Christianity, about

33:14

whatever, the climate, but ultimately,

33:17

they're jokes. I think around

33:19

those tweets especially that

33:21

if someone does a joke, that is

33:24

insensitive to to trans

33:26

people or to gay people or to

33:29

race, that you have to

33:31

assume that the comedian was being

33:33

insensitive, but is not necessarily

33:36

a Nazi or someone who is,

33:38

you know, trying to to start

33:40

problems and they should be able

33:42

to speak their piece. And I've I've seen things

33:45

get out of control like that, and and

33:47

they don't get an opportunity to speak their piece.

33:49

But also, when you do say

33:51

things, there are consequences and

33:53

and there are reactions, public

33:55

reactions that can pick up momentum. And

33:58

sometimes you have to factor in

33:59

that, the fact of that

34:02

when, you know, you you say things.

34:05

Do you find yourself thinking about past

34:07

material that you wouldn't

34:09

say no because the culture

34:11

has changed, the language has changed,

34:14

you've changed? Yes. Absolutely.

34:17

And and I don't think

34:18

that that that there's anything wrong with that. No.

34:21

It's good to change. I mean, it's good to change

34:23

when you look back and think, like, I should I don't

34:25

believe that anymore. I don't think that

34:26

anymore. Yeah. Well, it's it's like it's just

34:28

it's not even a belief or think. It's like,

34:31

you know, jokes or jokes. And there was a time

34:33

in my life where I was of the

34:35

belief that you should be able to joke

34:37

about anything and you should do it. And

34:39

it doesn't matter how shocking it is.

34:42

This is our job is to push this envelope.

34:44

I've been in that zone when I

34:46

was a younger comic. And I made, you

34:48

know, I I would say definitely insensitive

34:51

jokes, but I I also thought there was

34:53

some craft to them. But there are certainly

34:56

jokes that

34:58

I grew to learn. Like, I have

35:00

been in my past I've

35:02

been called out by

35:05

by people who saw me it shows

35:07

'From doing an Asian

35:10

voice that

35:12

was not me it was me doing somebody

35:14

doing it who I had an experience with in

35:16

a cab, but her point in

35:18

the email was that you're still getting

35:21

the laugh from that

35:22

voice. So it it's still in

35:24

it's still wrong. I

35:26

have been called out for a trans

35:29

joke years ago before any of

35:31

this stuff

35:32

that was, I was told, was insensitive

35:34

in which I believed and I stopped doing it.

35:36

I had been called out by

35:39

someone. These are usually through emails of people who

35:41

see me as shows 'From exploring the

35:43

r word in

35:45

an in an earnest way. And

35:47

I was schooled on that, that it's not,

35:49

you know, it's not about the people

35:51

who are mentally challenged or intellectually challenged

35:53

or whatever the correct word

35:56

is now. It's really about everyone who

35:58

loves that person and everyone in that family

36:00

that when you say the r word,

36:02

it hurts all the people. Who

36:05

have someone in

36:07

their life who has those challenges.

36:10

So, you know, I have taken the risks

36:12

and I have honored the

36:15

the feedback. And I have I those were

36:17

the consequences. Is that that is the dialogue.

36:20

You should rethink

36:20

this. And I did, and I stopped doing it.

36:24

So I I have one more question for you, and it's

36:26

kinda heavy and kinda personal, but

36:28

it's in the spirit of your new

36:31

comedy show on HBO from

36:33

bleak to Dark'. So this is dark. When

36:37

when your girlfriend, the director

36:39

Lynn Shelton, was

36:41

taken to the hospital. And

36:44

you didn't know she was dying, but

36:46

she was. She certainly

36:48

didn't know it either. And then

36:50

you got the call from the hospital saying, get

36:52

over here right away. We're taking her off the

36:55

life support machines. And

36:57

of course, by the time you got there, she

37:00

was already gone. And they

37:02

they said, one, you know, why don't you go in with her

37:04

and you can spend a few minutes with her,

37:06

so so you did.

37:09

And I'm wondering if the

37:11

image of her face after

37:15

after she had passed stays

37:17

with you And if

37:19

you

37:21

if you're glad you have that image, I don't

37:23

mean glad, but, you know, if it's a good thing

37:25

that you have that image or if that image haunts

37:27

you,

37:30

Yeah. I, you know, yeah, I talked

37:32

about that pretty specifically in

37:34

the special and So the doctor

37:36

was offering me this opportunity. And

37:38

it was like, there was no way was

37:40

gonna get there in time. It wasn't

37:43

about being there for when she

37:45

passed. It was just about him

37:47

offering me the opportunity to to

37:49

see her, you know. And it seemed like

37:51

when he offered me that opportunity, he knew that she

37:53

was gonna be gone. But

37:56

I I don't I don't go there

37:58

really when I think

38:00

about her

38:03

passing. I I do not regret

38:05

going down there and and having an opportunity

38:08

to get that type of closure and

38:11

and say goodbye in that way. But

38:15

usually when I think about that

38:17

day and the day before, I just

38:21

you know, it it really becomes

38:23

about, you know,

38:26

did did I show up for her enough? You

38:30

know, who was I, you know, that week?

38:32

You know? You know? Because I

38:34

just hope

38:36

that I was showing up for

38:37

her in

38:39

a in a caring way Yeah.

38:44

Mark, I I really it's so good to talk with

38:46

you again, and I'm really grateful for your

38:48

comedy special. It really

38:51

made me laugh a lot and that felt really good.

38:53

But it also is really very

38:57

thoughtful very reflective and

39:00

emotional and to do all of that at

39:02

the same time is a balancing act

39:04

that is really hard to

39:05

achieve, but you did it. So thank you for that.

39:08

You're welcome, and thank you for talking to me.

39:11

I I really appreciate it, and I have

39:14

nothing but love and respect for

39:15

you, Terry. Oh, that's how I feel about you.

39:17

I'm so grateful for our microphone rep

39:19

-- Okay. -- relationship

39:22

mediated by microphones, but -- Yeah. -- really

39:24

important to me.

39:26

Oh, good. Okay. Yes.

39:28

Mark Marron's new comedy special bleak

39:31

to dark is streaming on HBO

39:33

Max. After we take a short

39:35

break, Ken Tucker will review the new

39:38

seventeenth volume of Dylan's bootleg

39:40

recordings released by Columbia Records.

39:43

This is fresh air.

39:45

Columbia Records has released volume

39:47

seventeen of its official Bob

39:49

Dillon bootleg series This

39:51

one is titled Fragrance Time

39:54

Out of Mine Sessions nineteen ninety

39:56

six to nineteen ninety seven, and it

39:58

provides an extensive new look at one

40:00

of Dylan's most acclaimed albums, The

40:02

Grammy winning time out of mind.

40:04

Rock Credit Ken Tucker says, this package

40:07

of five CDs offers a wealth

40:09

of new ways to experience McDillon's

40:11

most moving music.

40:25

Some of us turn off the lights

40:27

and we live in

40:31

the moonlight shooting by.

40:36

Some of us scared us into

40:40

the dark. Debbie

40:43

with the engines flying.

40:48

When time out of mine was released in nineteen

40:50

ninety seven. It was Bob Dillon's first

40:52

album of original material in seven

40:54

years. He'd just turned fifty

40:56

six and had survived a serious heart

40:59

problem health scare. In

41:01

interviews, Dylan and producer Daniel

41:03

Landois admitted to a long, often

41:05

contentious recording process that

41:07

took place in California and Florida.

41:11

By the time the collection won album of the

41:13

year at the nineteen ninety eight Grammy's,

41:15

the narrative around time out of mind

41:17

had

41:17

gelled. Here was Dylan's

41:20

comeback, his don't count him out

41:22

resurgence.

41:25

If it's different the way, we

41:27

won't be alive. Your

41:30

days are numbered. So

41:32

am I Tired

41:35

is filling up. Which other

41:37

enemy screen? Well, I'm

41:39

not still left,

41:41

Trish. See,

41:43

there's just a joke about games

41:46

to play. Patching

41:48

all everybody gotta get away.

41:52

That was me. It's in the country. They

41:54

were getting themselves.

42:03

That's Mississippi, a song that was left

42:05

off time out of mind. It eventually

42:07

appeared on two thousand one's love and theft

42:09

in a tame b movie western

42:11

version. Here, however,

42:14

with the organ of AUGY Myers and the slide

42:16

guitar of Cindy Cash Dollar greasing

42:18

the melody, it's a slinky roadhouse

42:20

blues. This collection

42:23

fragments contains five disks including

42:25

a remix of the original album and

42:27

many outtakes and alternate versions.

42:30

There's one disc devoted to live performances.

42:33

Some of these are very rough. On

42:36

one or two, you can overhear people in the

42:38

audience talking to each other. You

42:40

can also hear Dylan really enjoying

42:42

being on his so called never ending

42:44

tour, hurling himself into these

42:47

performances. The

42:49

version of Till I fell in love with you

42:51

recorded in Buenocera's Argentina

42:53

in nineteen ninety eight is raw

42:55

and funny. Very rock and rolly

42:57

with a great instrumental section in

43:00

its center. Day.

44:39

The more you listen to Dylan working changes

44:41

on what were then fresh new songs for

44:43

him, The old way of hearing time

44:45

out of mind falls away. This

44:48

isn't about Dylan and Landois trying

44:50

for a comeback or a hit or a Grammy

44:52

Award, I mean, it is,

44:54

it probably was, but who cares

44:56

about any of that now? The

44:58

songs outlast and exceed their

45:00

initial framework.

45:03

Time out of mind is an album about effort,

45:05

about work, about trying hard,

45:08

laboring to be understood, and to be loved.

45:11

In song after song, Dylan is walking

45:13

down a dirt road trying to get to a lover,

45:16

but she's a million miles away.

45:19

Or he's twenty miles out of town

45:21

in cold irons bound, but he's

45:23

not giving up. He's

45:25

transfixed by earthly love even as

45:27

he's trying to get to heaven. He's

45:30

sick of being in love, but he's helplessly enthralled

45:32

to it. He has a long talk with

45:35

waitress in a roadside diner that only

45:37

convinces him he has to continue to try.

45:40

And so he keeps on in a song

45:42

that didn't make the album, Dark' into

45:44

the city.

45:46

Soundflex, I've fallen. On

45:51

my head, I

46:04

haven't hit you. And

46:08

I seen you in mind. Everything

46:13

can hear me now. That's

46:17

your time. Once

46:21

I had a minute ago,

46:23

she did me wrong. I'm

46:25

closer to the city of Us. The

46:30

atmosphere Dylan in Lanhua achieved

46:33

remains eerie and vital. A

46:35

rhythm that skeletons might dance to in

46:37

a graveyard using a few discarded

46:39

bones for percussion. Dylan,

46:42

with his crypt keeper rasp, has

46:44

the last laugh.

46:46

Kent Tucker reviewed fragments, time

46:48

out of mine sessions the Bob Dillon

46:50

bootleg series. Our technical

46:52

director and engineer, Asadu Benfeng.

46:55

They are challenger directed today's show.

46:57

I'm Terry Gross.