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1:05

This is Fresh Air. I'm Terri Gross.

1:07

Stephen Sondheim's 1981 musical,

1:10

Merrily We Roll Along, closed after

1:12

only 16 performances.

1:15

Since then, it's developed a cult

1:17

following, and now it's a Broadway

1:19

hit with seven Tony nominations, including

1:21

Best Revival of a Musical. The

1:24

person behind this new production is

1:26

my guest, first-time director Maria Friedman.

1:29

She's nominated for a Tony, as are

1:32

the three leads, Jonathan Graff, who's also

1:34

with us, Daniel Radcliffe, and

1:36

Lindsay Mendez. This

1:38

is Friedman's directorial debut.

1:40

She's also an Olivier

1:42

Award-winning actress. She

1:45

worked closely with Stephen Sondheim. She co-starred

1:47

in a London revival of Merrily in

1:49

the mid-90s under

1:51

Sondheim's direction. She also

1:53

had leading roles in British productions of

1:55

the Sondheim musicals Passion, Sunday in the

1:58

Park with George, and Sweeney Todd. She

2:00

became good friends with Sondheim and he became

2:03

the godfather of one of her children. Jonathan

2:06

Graf was nominated for a Tony for

2:08

his performance in Hamilton as King George

2:10

III and for his

2:12

performance in Spring Awakening. He's

2:14

also known for his performances in

2:17

movies and TV shows including Frozen,

2:19

Mindhunter, Looking and Glee. People

2:22

sometimes complain that Sondheim doesn't

2:24

write hummable melodies, which isn't

2:26

true, but it's particularly

2:28

not true of the songs in

2:30

Merrily, as you'll hear when we

2:32

play excerpts from the new cast

2:34

recording. The story begins with three old friends.

2:37

Jonathan Graf plays Frank, a

2:40

composer turned film producer. Daniel

2:42

Radcliffe plays Charlie, a lyricist and

2:44

playwright, who wrote songs with Frank

2:46

and thinks Frank abandoned his calling

2:48

as a composer to make money

2:51

as a crowd-pleasing movie producer. Lindsay

2:54

Mendes plays Mary, a best-selling novelist

2:56

turned theatre critic, who's become bitter

2:58

and drinks way too much. Charlie

3:01

and Mary feel abandoned by

3:03

Frank. The story spans 20

3:05

years starting in 1976. Each

3:08

scene goes further back in time until 1957

3:10

when the friends first meet. Let's

3:15

start with Jonathan Graf singing Old Friends

3:17

from the new cast recording. Hey,

3:22

old friend, are you

3:24

okay? Old

3:26

friend, what do you say?

3:29

Old friend, are

3:32

we or are

3:34

we unique? Time

3:36

goes by, everything

3:38

else keeps changing.

3:42

You and I, we

3:45

get continued next week.

3:49

Most friends feed or

3:51

they don't make the

3:53

grade. New ones are quick,

3:56

leave, made, and in a

3:59

pinch, sure. That

4:04

was old

4:07

friends from the new

4:12

revival of Stephen Sondheim's

4:14

Merrily We Roll Along.

4:24

Jonathan Graf, Maria Friedman, congratulations

4:27

on the show. Congratulations on

4:29

your Tony nominations. I love

4:31

this revival so much. I'm

4:34

so happy to have you on the

4:36

show. Thank you. We're happy to be

4:38

here. Sondheim songs often have a different

4:40

meaning than you'd think out of context.

4:43

And this is sung after a fight

4:45

between Jonathan's character, the composer, Franklin Shepherd,

4:47

and Daniel Radcliffe's character, the lyricist,

4:50

Shirley Kringus, after their

4:52

collaboration keeps getting putting

4:54

on hold because the composer has

4:56

become a successful film producer and isn't

4:59

writing music. And the

5:01

lyricist is really frustrated because he

5:03

thinks that the composer is

5:05

a genius and he's not fulfilling his

5:07

true worth. It's also

5:09

very syncopated this song. And I

5:12

always think of Merrily as Sondheim's

5:14

syncopated musical. So many of these

5:16

songs are syncopated. And

5:18

Maria, I'm wondering if he ever talked to you

5:21

about that. No, he'd

5:23

always talk character and story. And that's

5:25

what drove him to write

5:27

in the rhythms that he did for different

5:29

people. It's a very, very

5:32

good question, by the way, that you

5:34

notice that it's quite

5:36

spiky. And it becomes

5:39

more rhapsodic and luscious as

5:41

we walk backwards towards the

5:43

hope. And there

5:45

was a point where they really have a row. And

5:48

finally, an argument, I think you call it, I call

5:50

it a row in England. And

5:53

the syncopation is about the edginess of the

5:55

way they feel. It's not just there as

5:57

a kind of add on, it's driven by

5:59

the narrative. So Jonathan, what

6:01

was it like for you to sing that

6:03

song? And maybe you could clap out or

6:05

sing out or point out the syncopation in

6:08

it. Is this in

6:10

the melody? In the melody, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

6:13

In the opening line. Hey, old

6:16

friend, are you okay, old

6:19

friend? One of my favorite ones, one of my favorite

6:21

parts though is when

6:24

I say, most

6:26

friends fade or they don't

6:28

make the great new ones

6:30

are quickly made. The

6:34

spaces are so delicious to play

6:37

in the writing of the music.

6:40

And Maria oftentimes in rehearsal would talk

6:42

with us about how the

6:45

pauses are just as

6:47

if not more important than the notes,

6:49

that the pauses in between the notes

6:52

and understanding the life

6:54

that happens in those pauses

6:56

are so major. And

6:58

in that song, there's a kind

7:01

of, because the character of Frank

7:04

is trying to persuade, trying

7:06

to manage

7:09

Charlie's spikiness, there's almost like a

7:12

playfulness I find in the pauses,

7:14

particularly in that one line where

7:17

I'm waiting for him to break.

7:19

I'm waiting for him to melt

7:22

a little bit. And that tension is so

7:24

fun to play. The original 1981 production

7:27

of Merrily We Roll Along was a big flop.

7:29

It closed after, I think, 16 performances.

7:33

Maria, you were close friends with Sondheim.

7:35

You became close friends. So

7:38

why did you want to do

7:40

a production, a new revival

7:42

of Merrily knowing that previous

7:45

attempts also failed? And

7:48

I don't think they were necessarily artistic failures. I've

7:50

seen a few productions that I thought were great.

7:53

Had they tried to diagnose why

7:55

the show had never succeeded before?

7:57

Yeah. And what was the diagnosis? Well,

7:59

I never know. knew what their diagnosis was,

8:01

what they put in this show. So

8:03

they didn't discuss that with me. I'll

8:05

tell you one thing they were absolutely

8:07

adamant about is that we didn't ever

8:10

refer back to the old version, that

8:12

this was the version they wanted done,

8:14

that they themselves had rejected

8:16

the old version that they had written. So

8:19

which was deeply painful for them,

8:21

but they were starting afresh. You

8:24

know, a couple of people have taken

8:26

bits from the old one. That was

8:28

just an absolute no-go with Steve. He

8:30

did not want his other version ever

8:33

done again. This is

8:35

the first commercially successful production

8:37

of Merrily. In

8:40

the show, when the characters have

8:42

the first successful production, they're

8:44

standing outside the door listening

8:47

for the applause. And when they hear the

8:49

applause, they're saying, it's a hit, it's a

8:51

hit. So who

8:53

are you on opening night on

8:55

Broadway for this show? And I'm also

8:57

wondering, like, if you all went somewhere

9:00

afterwards and sang it's a hit. Well,

9:08

I was in the auditorium.

9:11

I can't tell you how much I missed

9:13

Steve that night. Because for

9:18

me, this has been a love letter to him from

9:20

day one. Not that

9:22

he wanted the love letter, may I say, he

9:24

was to say, for God's sake, don't do it for me, do it for you.

9:26

And I'll come and see it. And if I like

9:29

it, I'll let you know. And if I don't

9:31

trust me, I'll let you know. But I

9:33

went into this, if it any

9:35

way sounds arrogant, then I've

9:38

not made myself clear. I

9:40

was really calm on opening night. I sat

9:42

in the auditorium. I did

9:44

a lot of people watching around the

9:46

applause and I watched a

9:48

whole audience sitting at the front of their seats.

9:51

I heard an opening night that was quiet, sort

9:53

of, I don't know, it felt like

9:56

the whole room was pushing as

9:58

one towards the story. I felt

10:01

totally relaxed because I've been with

10:03

this show now on and

10:05

off for 30 something years And

10:08

it was what I everything I wanted

10:10

on that stage There it

10:12

was Jonathan were you listening

10:14

carefully to the applause to see which way it

10:16

was gonna go? so

10:18

funny you ask that because Like

10:21

Maria funnily enough the success

10:24

you could hear in the silence you

10:26

could it's absolutely like Jonathan It's

10:29

in the silence. Yes in

10:31

the breathing as one When

10:33

they heard things that they collected

10:35

those moments a bit like

10:37

a sleuth. They're going backwards that You

10:40

just hit a whole This

10:43

one. Yeah, there's some lines that happen

10:46

Two hours and 40 minutes into

10:48

an evening after an audience one

10:51

line that has been laid out One

10:54

line that takes over the course of

10:56

maybe three seconds to say and

10:59

now you've had a whole show a whole intermission and

11:02

This it reappears several of these lines

11:04

reappear at the very end and

11:06

then you feel those land It's

11:09

like whoa this these people are

11:11

really Listening and picking

11:14

up that that detail

11:16

that he that starts with his

11:18

writing. It's it feels Incredible

11:21

to be inside of those moments. Are

11:24

you talking about lines in the song our time?

11:27

Yes, I'm thinking about a specific

11:29

dialogue line. It's just after The

11:38

line comes after Mayor

11:41

the character of Mary this is in the first scene

11:43

which is Chronologically the end of

11:45

their story, but it's the first thing that the

11:47

audience is seeing and and Mary

11:49

who's the dearest

11:52

friend of Frank leaves and It's

11:55

it's like It's

11:58

like his heart walks out the door And

12:01

just after that happens, this

12:03

young, sort of like

12:05

what would be the young version of Charlie, this young

12:08

writer says, how do I get to be you? Devastating

12:12

line, that's a devastating line. And Frank

12:14

says to this young man, don't just

12:17

write what you know, pointing to his

12:19

head, write what you

12:21

know, touching his heart. And

12:24

some nights that line gets a bit of a laugh

12:26

because maybe it's a bit of a douchey thing to

12:28

say. And

12:31

it's called upon again at the

12:34

end of the show and the very final

12:36

scene, Charlie

12:38

says it to Frank and

12:41

it starts everything. It starts their

12:44

collaboration, it starts their love story,

12:46

it starts just, it's

12:49

the beginning of everything. And it's just

12:51

thrown away. Yeah. He says, you really like

12:53

what I wrote? Yeah. He says,

12:55

yeah. What's it? You write what you know, you

12:57

write what you know. Oh, that's it. And that's

12:59

two hours, including an interval

13:02

later. And the whole audience

13:04

just go, oh, you

13:08

just feel the pain. There's

13:10

just many, many moments like that that

13:13

start collecting. Jonathan, how could you

13:15

tear up after

13:17

having done so many performances

13:19

of this? How is it

13:21

that it's still so emotional for you? It's

13:25

such a good question. I

13:29

think that they wrote something

13:31

really personal. Steven Sondheim

13:33

and George first feels

13:35

like just here, let me take my heart

13:37

out of my body and just place it

13:40

at your feet. It feels

13:42

like that is in the energy of the writing. And

13:45

then Maria came in and asked us

13:47

all to do that. They

13:51

did it. They had the bravery to do it.

13:53

And so everything actually is a word that comes

13:55

up a lot in the music and in the

13:58

script. This word,

14:00

everything. everything. And in a

14:02

kind of cosmic sense, Maria

14:05

gave us the the gift of

14:08

inviting all of us that

14:11

our mission should we choose to accept it to

14:14

give everything. And I mean,

14:16

we've including off Broadway, we've done this over

14:18

300 times, instead of it getting rote

14:22

or instead of it getting

14:25

stale, it just goes

14:27

deeper and deeper and deeper.

14:31

Yeah, yeah, it is. There's

14:33

another thing though, what I find really

14:35

interesting, both as a performer

14:37

and watching people like Jonathan, is

14:40

that we have one tool that is

14:42

is our very, very best friend as

14:45

an actor, and that's staying present. The

14:47

greatest actors are present. They're not doing

14:49

yesterday's show, or a plan in their

14:51

head. And because we change

14:54

and the audience change, you know, we have

14:56

different days, we're tired, we've had our argument,

14:58

we've fallen in love, whatever it is, whatever

15:00

it is, our life is running in town

15:02

in you know, in alongside

15:04

the play, that if

15:06

you ask gills enough, and

15:10

open enough, as

15:12

a performer, the person in

15:14

front of you will be changing slightly

15:16

every day. And when an

15:18

actor presents you with something different, you

15:21

can do two things, you can resent

15:23

it because it takes you away from what you

15:25

plan to do, or you go with

15:27

it, and it makes you richer and deeper. And

15:30

hopefully, ultimately, they come back to

15:33

something that you need and want that

15:35

it's a conversation is

15:37

a constant conversation. And I don't

15:40

know if that's right, Jonathan, that I

15:42

see you every day, every time I

15:44

pop in and see you, it's it

15:47

feels fresh, because it's now, it's today.

15:50

Jonathan, you mentioned that the word everything,

15:53

that you are encouraged to

15:55

give everything, and the word

15:57

everything is mentioned in the song Our

15:59

Time. time. So I'd

16:02

like to play that. And just to set the scene,

16:04

this is on the rooftop of an

16:07

apartment building that both Charlie and Frank

16:09

are living in. Charlie has

16:11

been listening to Frank's music,

16:13

like through the walls, and

16:15

he had given Frank a

16:17

copy of his play to

16:20

read. And they both really admire each

16:22

other's work. And Frank

16:25

has this idea, we should collaborate. You write

16:27

words and I write music, we should be

16:29

a team. And it

16:31

seems like a new world, because

16:34

they're on the verge of a new career,

16:36

it's a new generation, it's a new time,

16:38

it's a new world, and

16:41

he sings our time. And

16:43

there's such sadness when we hear it in

16:45

the audience, because we all know how

16:47

things have turned out, the

16:50

compromises, the disappointments,

16:53

the anger between the two of them,

16:55

the frustrations. So anything

16:57

you want to add to that, Jonathan?

17:00

I thought you said it up beautifully. Yeah, I'm going to

17:02

write it down in the top of your head. And

17:06

I should also mention, you know,

17:08

we know that that Frank has

17:10

lost friends and

17:12

family, because he stopped

17:15

paying attention to them to devote all of his

17:17

time to his career, and to

17:19

his success. So let's hear

17:22

Jonathan Graf sing your time.

17:32

Something is stirring, shifting

17:34

ground, it's just the

17:36

game. Edges

17:40

are blurring all around,

17:43

and yesterday is done. the

18:00

names in tomorrow's papers

18:03

up to us man to show them.

18:12

It's our time, breathe

18:15

it in, worlds

18:17

to change and worlds to

18:19

win. Our turn

18:21

coming through, me and you,

18:23

me and you. When

18:31

you sing that, what are you thinking about?

18:34

I know you're thinking about being frank, but

18:36

what do you connect it to in your

18:39

own life? Because he's thinking about, you know,

18:41

it's our time, the generation's different, but there's

18:43

this line, and yesterday is done. Can

18:46

you talk a little bit of, is it too emotional? No,

18:48

no, it's okay. It's great

18:50

that you bring up that line too, because that

18:52

is also the first line of the entire show.

18:55

Yesterday is done. And

18:58

I'll say that the special gift

19:01

of being an

19:03

actor inside of this piece,

19:05

one of the many special

19:07

gifts, is

19:09

that because the

19:12

show goes backwards, it

19:15

forces the actor to be

19:18

ultra present, because unlike most

19:21

shows where you build over

19:23

an arc of an evening, you start at the

19:25

beginning and go to the end, and

19:27

you carry with you the whole show for

19:31

the final moment. In

19:33

this, you start at

19:35

the end, and you spend

19:37

the show shedding your life until

19:40

we're at the purest version, which is

19:43

on the rooftop singing our time. And

19:45

yesterday is done. To hear

19:48

that at the top of the show and

19:50

to start performing is such a reminder

19:52

every day for me to be present.

19:55

And when I've made my way through the story,

19:57

and I get to the end of the show,

20:00

get to the end, I feel like I

20:02

am 18 years old. I

20:05

feel full of hope. It's

20:10

funny because it makes me emotional in when

20:13

I think about it as an adult, but when I'm

20:15

inside of it, I really feel like I'm 18. And

20:17

then at the same time, I feel

20:19

like I'm talking to Daniel Radcliffe. And

20:23

there are moments when I feel like

20:25

there is no character

20:27

there. It is, of course, Frank and Charlie,

20:29

but then we're trying to tell the story.

20:32

That's the most important thing. But at the

20:34

exact same moment, I'm saying

20:36

these things to Dan

20:38

into his eyes and looking

20:41

out at this audience on Broadway, like

20:43

40 plus years later,

20:45

on the edge of

20:47

their seats at this show, and it feels

20:49

like anything is possible. It's like the

20:52

most inspiring, poignant,

20:55

life-affirming, exciting

20:58

vibration to be inside of. My

21:02

guests are Jonathan Groff, who's nominated for

21:04

a Tony for his starring role in

21:06

the Broadway revival of Sondheim's musical, Merrily

21:08

We Roll Along, and Maria

21:11

Friedman, who's nominated for directing the show.

21:13

We'll talk more after a break. I'm

21:16

Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air. This

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I'm constantly looking for

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23:13

Jonathan, you're tearing up talking about some of

23:15

these songs and what they mean to you,

23:18

but you can't really do that on stage

23:20

because you have to be in the moment.

23:24

How does that work? How do you

23:26

get your voice out? I know when

23:28

I cry, my voice just kind of

23:30

whivers and it's hard to speak. It's

23:34

interesting. Right before we started rehearsals,

23:37

I was obsessively listening to the music, became

23:39

obsessed with the score, and I

23:42

was trying to know the music before the first

23:44

day of rehearsal because the music is not changing

23:46

because this is a revival of a famous

23:49

Sennheim show. And I would

23:51

get to learning our time

23:53

and I would just weep. And

23:56

I was like, okay, I guess once I'm in rehearsal,

23:58

I'll start the weeping

24:00

and we'll be able to sing the song. And

24:02

then our first day of staging this song on

24:04

the show, sat there with Maria

24:06

and Dan and Lindsay, and we're just all

24:08

weeping. And we're just, we're

24:11

crying. I don't know, we're mourning the

24:13

inner child. We're at the dreams, all

24:15

of it. And it wasn't

24:17

really until we had the audience there that

24:20

I could actually pull

24:22

myself together. Because

24:25

understanding, okay, this is a story that

24:27

we're telling for an audience. And what

24:30

Maria, especially in the intimacy of the

24:33

off-Broadway experience at New York Theatre Workshop, where

24:35

we were for three months before

24:37

moving to Broadway and the audience is really in

24:39

your lap. And that,

24:41

for me, brings up a lot

24:43

of self-conscious feelings. And

24:46

Maria helped me by saying,

24:49

the ideas that you're articulating

24:52

are more important than you're feeling embarrassed

24:54

that the audience is so close to

24:56

you. Say what they

24:58

wrote. You have to send these

25:00

ideas into the audience and

25:03

out into the street outside. And so

25:05

connecting to the importance of

25:08

telling the story and communicating the

25:11

ideas was essential in

25:13

getting me over that

25:15

kind of crying that makes it unable

25:18

to speak. And

25:20

so I still feel quite emotional when

25:22

I'm singing it and tears do come.

25:25

But the necessity and the need

25:27

to articulate the thoughts and the

25:29

ideas that take over. The same

25:32

thing. I don't know about you. I

25:34

have cried probably almost as much

25:37

over joy and beauty

25:39

and possibility. So

25:42

I say use it. You know, if it

25:44

comes because you're excited and you're sitting with

25:46

your best friend and it's possible, I

25:48

know I have welled up and teared up

25:50

with pure joy and hope many

25:53

times, a beautiful sunset, a moment where

25:55

I'm sharing ecstasy with friends.

25:58

I don't mean that in the end. chemical sense,

26:00

I mean in this. But that

26:03

will make me cry. So if

26:05

that's what Jonathan feels when he's

26:07

feeling those things, let it

26:09

happen. Why not? Maria, how did you cast Jonathan

26:11

and the role of Frank? By

26:14

meeting him, we talked on

26:16

a Zoom. And then I

26:18

took him to Steve Sondheim's house, who

26:21

had already passed away. Because

26:23

I wanted Steve to be, I don't

26:25

know, somehow part of the decision. I

26:29

wanted Steve to meet Jonathan properly.

26:31

And we sat and we talked in his

26:33

house for ages.

26:37

And then Jonathan

26:39

drove me to my hotel.

26:41

And I got out the car just

26:44

going, well, that's that then. It

26:46

did mean that we all had to wait an enormous amount

26:48

of time for him. But I would do that 10 times

26:51

over. How did you cast Daniel

26:53

Radcliffe? Did you have any idea

26:55

that he sang? Yes, I knew

26:57

he sang. He'd

27:00

come to see the show in London

27:02

and had photographs with the cast. And

27:04

I remember thinking, if I was

27:07

Daniel, and I was watching that show, and I was

27:09

watching that part, I think, that's

27:11

my part. Because I mean, he is

27:13

Charlie, he's just a walk. I mean,

27:15

he's that kind of brilliance and

27:17

anyway, he's Charlie. And then

27:19

lists arrived. And he was on the

27:22

list. And

27:25

he's with my agent. And so I

27:27

think that we just done availabilities on

27:30

a across a, you know, a

27:32

range of people. And my agent

27:34

called me saying, we've

27:36

just had an availability on Daniel.

27:39

And I just thought, well, that's that. That

27:43

means he, you know, the fact they'd called

27:45

me meant that

27:48

there was a big possibility he was at

27:50

least interested. And then I think I

27:52

was auditioned. I mean, I had to go meet him a

27:54

couple of times to see whether he would get on with

27:56

me. And He. He's

28:00

a proper, true, brilliant,

28:02

brilliant actor. so we

28:05

immediately. So so have. A character in

28:07

the detail and things that he will.

28:09

It was concerned about and asked me

28:11

as many questions I asked him and

28:13

them and that was that. We. Need

28:15

to take a short break here if

28:18

we just joining us were talking about

28:20

the Broadway revival of Narrowly We Roll

28:22

Along. It's now nominated for seven Tony

28:25

Awards, including best revival of a musical

28:27

my guess or two of the nominees

28:29

Jonathan Groff, the show star and Mario

28:32

Friedman, the director. Will. Be back

28:34

after a short break. This is fresh

28:36

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28:38

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28:40

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28:42

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28:46

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28:50

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Wherever you get your podcast. On

29:02

this week's episode of Wildcard Musician

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29:07

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29:09

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29:11

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29:17

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29:25

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29:28

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29:45

Maria You played Mary. I'm one

29:47

of the three leads in the

29:49

shown. In the

29:51

mid nineties and this is the

29:53

time when Sondheim was rewriting at

29:55

as you were rehearsing it, and

29:57

how does he a direct you?

30:00

He wasn't directing the show, but I'm sure

30:02

he was making suggestions to know puke, He

30:04

was directing the said he wanted to rest. Of

30:07

his like literally or or and I

30:09

mean he's He's a great collaborator so

30:11

he wouldn't step on toes as the

30:14

staging That the staging is only part.

30:16

Of directing. So how

30:18

did he do after you in that

30:21

character? And could you compare that to?

30:23

Hell you directed it. I'm

30:25

Lynn Lindsay Mendez who plays marry

30:27

in the new Revival. There's a.

30:29

Kind. Of reference about Steve which

30:31

he hated. And

30:34

so. They. Have The

30:36

puppies School and I was

30:38

being made to saying like

30:40

it was Charlie. Like.

30:42

Down. Because it was

30:45

a princess in that sort. So as

30:47

I saw the what recites. Anywhere he

30:49

came into the restroom. And he says looked

30:51

at the Musical director. In terms of. What?

30:53

Why she's singing down there. They said

30:55

when it's in the schools that I

30:57

rights of people I don't write an

30:59

idea. So up it went buses and

31:01

suddenly it was. Guess what in my

31:03

case and I had been saying to

31:06

them he won't mind that they will

31:08

It is coming. In at school repeating. The

31:10

same. So that was the first thing

31:12

I tore up the it's got to

31:14

be in this case So and an

31:17

actor arise with me and it's out

31:19

there. It returns the key, we make

31:21

it sit them. Second thing is it's

31:23

all about the details so is as

31:26

a youth skimmed pause to saw or

31:28

an idea was subtext hit a he

31:30

would sit cross legged looking into my

31:33

eyes may be to put away and

31:35

just going. note. The bodies

31:37

and comes as no, not not fat. What

31:39

are you doing? What are you thinking and

31:42

then he would fill you. Or.

31:44

Make you feel up yourself with

31:46

your ideas is what we talk

31:48

about the pauses the bits in

31:51

between the connective tissue this allow.

31:53

To just be

31:55

fool. With that part, that is

31:57

one thing. The other thing is I. I.

32:00

Played have incredibly wilde the

32:02

first scene where she's. Drunk

32:04

and isi screening and throwing things

32:07

and falling on the floor and

32:09

everything. It was pretty,

32:11

was pretty face and always different

32:13

so I would every single day

32:15

do something. Different so that the cost

32:17

would jump out of their skin. I got

32:19

somebody else. Them. Whatever he said to

32:22

me I'm really worried about is

32:24

this. Comes to he says he sees. Them.

32:28

As sessions over the years I was

32:31

so happy because I thought oh my

32:33

god maybe this is like a premonition.

32:35

I'm gonna be one of these crazy

32:37

angry banshees alcoholic, who ever. But because

32:40

he said that, I promise you I

32:42

kept an eye on myself because it

32:44

like in real life. Yeah. Because.

32:46

It was easy for me. To me

32:48

that was, I didn't have a. That.

32:51

Kind of safety valve I see a

32:53

lot of actors have. it. Was it.

32:55

Was. Or all out a

32:58

real. Letting out your bottled up anger

33:00

I think prose I'd at less what

33:02

he said to me said there's some

33:04

massive policies, it's angry Maria and I

33:07

always thought of myself as playful and

33:09

funny and good to be around. but

33:11

then I kind of. I realized because

33:13

that is the acts or I am.

33:15

I don't say yesterday's done on bringing

33:17

it all with me so is all

33:19

available is all available. That stuff and

33:22

I had a very complicated Charles's so

33:24

all those things that were on process

33:26

find their way into the corners of.

33:28

What I do as a performer

33:30

so I hope that something that

33:32

I was given to him is

33:34

kind of to be mindful that

33:36

this a separation between acting and

33:39

you'll realize make sure that you're

33:41

not bleeding the to into one

33:43

another that they are at is

33:45

a technical requirements that that mustn't.

33:47

Cost you so much. That it makes

33:49

you sick because it could do. When

33:51

you asked, do that much. Can. you

33:53

think of an example one sondheim

33:55

was sitting down looking into your

33:58

eyes and said nope I

34:01

can tell you a story when I

34:03

was doing Sunday in the Park with George, where

34:08

I had cried when

34:12

I was playing the Old Marie,

34:14

and it's a beautiful song called

34:16

Children and Art, and

34:18

I had got over-emotional

34:22

about part

34:26

of that, this

34:30

little old lady's idea

34:32

about her grandson's art, and

34:35

he came flying

34:37

in my dressing room,

34:40

absolutely raging, saying, what

34:42

was that? And I was like, oh, I thought I'd

34:44

been quite good that night. And he just said,

34:49

it's not for you to cry, it's for the

34:52

audience to cry. Now, that I know goes against

34:54

what I'm saying, but you have to choose

34:56

when you cry. And I just

34:58

become sort of sentimental with the kind

35:00

of beauty of the music, and it

35:02

wasn't specific enough. And he loved me

35:05

being specific. And I'd kind of given

35:07

it a kind of glow of sentimentality.

35:10

And he was just like fuming

35:13

with me. I remember just sitting there shaking.

35:15

It's the first time he's ever really crossed

35:17

with me, just thinking, oh. And

35:21

Jonathan and I share an exact same thing,

35:23

is that he came in into

35:25

the rehearsal room, and he gave me

35:29

everybody many, many notes in Sunday in the Park

35:31

with George. And I had about 21 different

35:33

notes where he said, when you do this, do that,

35:35

when you do that, do that. I

35:37

just nodded, nodded, nodded. And he flew into my

35:40

dressing room that evening. And

35:42

he said, I was ready to be really mad

35:44

at you. Because I thought,

35:46

who is this arrogant girl without her

35:48

notebook and her pencil? She

35:51

didn't write down one thing I said,

35:53

and then you did them all. And

35:55

it's exactly the same. And that's where

35:57

our friendship started there at that point.

36:01

Speaking of Sondheim, as

36:03

we've discussed, Merrily is

36:07

told in like reverse chronological order.

36:10

It starts with the present when

36:12

expectations have not been fulfilled

36:15

and it ends when they're

36:17

like 20 years younger when

36:20

expectations are so high and they're so

36:22

excited and so fresh and the world

36:24

is so new to them. And

36:28

several songs are re-prized but often the second

36:30

time around when they're younger, the song has

36:32

a much more optimistic flair than the first

36:35

time around that we heard the song and

36:37

that's particularly true of

36:39

a song called Not a Day Goes By.

36:42

And the first time we hear it, Frank's

36:45

wife is singing it

36:48

while they're in the middle of this

36:50

very acrimonious divorce. And

36:52

the second time we hear it is

36:55

at their wedding, like years

36:57

earlier. And one of the

36:59

times I interviewed Sondheim, I asked him

37:01

about that song and about writing things

37:04

in reverse chronological order. So before we

37:06

hear both versions of that song, I'd

37:08

like to play what Sondheim had to

37:10

say about it. So

37:12

here's Sondheim talking about writing the

37:14

song in reverse chronological order. Well,

37:17

I wrote the whole score knowing that it was going to go

37:19

backwards in time and I thought what does

37:21

that imply? Well, it implies that something

37:23

that you and I sing today, 20 years

37:26

from now, will have a different meaning to

37:28

both of us. It doesn't have to be

37:30

that we get divorced, maybe it'll be memories

37:32

of something. But everything that happens

37:34

at a given time in your life

37:36

has echoes and resonances afterwards,

37:38

what I would call like reprises

37:40

really of thoughts of

37:43

moments in your life that happen in different

37:45

contexts. So I thought if

37:47

I'm going to write the show that goes backwards

37:49

in time, we'll start with the reprises. That is

37:51

to say, start with the variation on

37:54

the theme and then go back to the theme. And

37:56

that's what happens here. It happens with a lot of other songs

37:58

on the show too. But this

38:00

one very specifically with the lyric because

38:03

it applies to two very distinct and

38:06

distinctly defined situations, one a divorce

38:08

and one a, when they got

38:10

married. So you're taking two

38:12

high spots of their lives, their

38:14

marriage and their divorce. I

38:16

did that throughout the show. I still began,

38:19

as I always do, writing the score from

38:21

the first song on, but knowing, always

38:23

making notes as to how I would use it later

38:25

in the show. So I never

38:27

wrote blind, so to speak. I wrote knowing,

38:30

okay, this will be useful when

38:32

this, because we had plotted out the show and

38:35

we knew what was going to happen in the second act. In

38:37

other words, we knew what had happened in the past. And

38:40

so, yeah, so I was writing to that kind of plot.

38:43

Okay, that was Stephen Sondheim on Fresh Air.

38:45

So let's hear that song, Not a Day

38:47

Goes By. The first version

38:49

we'll hear is Katie Rose

38:52

Clark singing it when Beth

38:54

and Frank are divorcing. And

38:57

it's a very acrimonious divorce. And the

38:59

second version is when they're getting married

39:02

and she's just expressing her love for

39:04

him and Frank, my

39:06

guest, Jonathan Graff, duets with

39:08

her. So here we go. Two

39:10

versions of Not a Day Goes By from Narrowly

39:12

We Roll Alone. Not

39:15

a day goes by. Not

39:21

a single day. But

39:26

you're somewhere a part of

39:28

my life. And

39:31

it looks like you'll stay

39:33

as the days go

39:36

by. I

39:40

keep thinking, leave

39:42

it in. Where's

39:44

the day I'll have started

39:47

forgetting? But

39:49

I just go on thinking

39:52

and sweating and cursing and

39:54

crying and clothing and reaching

39:57

and waiting and begging and...

40:00

Oh, oh,

40:02

not a day of

40:07

life, not a blessed

40:09

day. Not

40:16

a day goes

40:18

by, not

40:21

a single day. But

40:27

you're somewhere a part

40:29

of my life, and

40:31

it looks like you'll stay

40:35

as the days go by. I

40:40

keep thinking when does

40:42

it end?

40:45

That it can't get much

40:47

better, much longer, but

40:50

it only gets better

40:52

and stronger and deeper

40:54

and nearer. And deeper

40:57

and clearer and clearer and

40:59

clearer. And deeper

41:01

and clearer and clearer.

41:03

And deeper and clearer.

41:08

That was two versions of Not a Day

41:10

Goes By from the new cast recording of

41:12

Merrily We Roll Along. We'll talk

41:14

with the show's star, Jonathan Graf, and

41:16

the director, Maria Friedman. After

41:18

a short break, this is Fresh Air. The

41:46

Embedded Podcast brings you eye-opening reporting.

41:49

There's something that hasn't been disclosed

41:51

yet. Immersive journalism. I could smell the

41:53

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I can't protect you. We

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are NPR's home for documentary storytelling.

42:05

Find embedded wherever you get your podcasts.

42:10

When the economic news gets to be a

42:12

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42:14

Indicator from Planet Money. We're here for

42:16

you, like your friends, trying to figure

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42:21

story, one idea, every day, all

42:23

in 10 minutes or less. The

42:26

Indicator from Planet Money, your friendly

42:28

economic sidekick. From NPR. Maria,

42:31

another question for you about Sondheim.

42:34

He became the godfather of one

42:36

of your children. What did

42:39

that mean in your life and in his life and your

42:41

child's life? Huge amount. And

42:43

my other child's mentor along with, I mean, he

42:45

mentored a lot of young writers. It

42:48

meant everything. I

42:51

asked him after

42:53

I'd had a big health scare.

42:58

We were walking along Covent Garden.

43:00

We always held hands or, you

43:02

know, we just like just walking.

43:05

He loved walking the streets of London. And

43:08

he when I got diagnosed, he said, I'm taking

43:10

you to the hospital. I mean, he was, you

43:13

know, he was very much. You

43:17

know, he was he was he was a great friend. Those

43:20

of us lucky enough. I

43:22

don't want to own him. That's the thing. I've

43:25

seen a lot of people come out of the woodwork who claim

43:27

him as great friends. So I

43:29

don't want to own him. What it meant to me

43:31

was everything. I asked him

43:33

whether he would be, you know,

43:36

godfather to either one of my

43:38

children. Toby was

43:41

the one he'd known longest. So he

43:44

said, Toby, but I will. I

43:46

really wanted to make sure that if I wasn't around, they

43:49

had this sort of, you know, of

43:52

contact with the man that meant so much to

43:54

me in my life. So

43:56

that's how that happened. To

44:00

be the guy father of one of your

44:02

children? Afraid that you might not be a

44:04

very little yeah. And

44:07

he was very happy to accept he had a choice. Really

44:09

to discuss a certain set of as I.

44:14

Said it's never is. Air was

44:16

lovely Rate really really lovely. yep

44:19

outrageous of meat was but. He

44:22

he was happy was happy he was happy.

44:24

Dance and a question for you. Lot.

44:26

Of people know you from Hamilton

44:29

where you are King George and

44:31

so amazon a such an ensemble

44:33

cast but you're always onstage alone

44:35

like you're the king, your the

44:37

British one and everybody in the

44:39

it is fighting like the Revolutionary

44:41

war. they want to be done

44:44

with you and so in this

44:46

great ensemble show like. You're.

44:48

Alone on stage singing your

44:50

King George stuff whereas and

44:52

merrily your the central figure

44:54

in an ensemble cast your

44:56

the seeker that everybody else

44:58

revolves around. Is

45:00

so it seems so difference to me. Can

45:02

you just can't compare those two experiences? When

45:06

I said yes to to

45:08

signing on to Hamilton's for

45:10

a year. I.

45:13

Said yes of course because

45:15

I loved. The. Nine minutes

45:17

that I got to be

45:19

on states as King George.

45:22

But. Really, the yes was

45:25

to. Be

45:27

inside of sad, brilliant material

45:29

a times a week. Cedar

45:31

for me is is. It's.

45:35

it's almost religious in that's what

45:37

of the you know they say

45:39

you are what you repeatedly do

45:41

and when you're doing a show

45:43

you show up to the cedar

45:46

eight times a week and you

45:48

and you repeat the same words

45:50

over and over again and so

45:52

i'd i'd take it really seriously

45:54

what i wear your fortune have

45:56

to be in the position where

45:59

i can in certain ways choose

46:01

the things that I get to spend the

46:04

eight show a week, the material that I

46:07

get to spend doing that.

46:09

And with Hamilton, I would

46:11

stand in the king costume in the

46:13

box and I would peek through the

46:15

curtain and I would watch the entire show. Performing

46:19

wise, it's so much more difficult

46:22

for me to do those

46:24

nine minutes than it is to

46:26

play Frank because to come out cold

46:29

and sing and leave and

46:32

like you said, Terry, not interact with

46:34

anyone is not

46:37

my personal dream of

46:39

acting. I love interacting

46:41

while acting. With

46:43

Merrily, getting to

46:46

hear this incredible material and get

46:48

to have this incredible material inside

46:50

of my body eight times a

46:53

week is literally life

46:55

changing. Like the cells in your

46:57

body, the music, the vibration, I

46:59

feel like I'm 18 when the show

47:03

is over and to

47:05

be inside of something where

47:07

you can play everything, like the

47:10

therapy. Can you imagine the therapy of

47:12

that that we get every night to

47:15

scream and show every

47:18

dark repressed corner

47:20

of myself and then

47:22

lean into the joy? I

47:24

mean, it really is. It

47:26

is the gift of gifts. Thank

47:30

you both so much and thank you for

47:32

this production. I just enjoyed it so much.

47:35

Congratulations and good luck at the Tonys.

47:37

The show is nominated for seven of

47:39

them, including for each of you. So,

47:41

I wish you the best. Thank

47:43

you so much. It's been a real pleasure. Thank

47:46

you for the great questions and the great time. Maria

47:49

Friedman directed the current Broadway revival

47:52

of Sondheim's Merrily We Roll Along,

47:54

Jonathan Groff stars in the role of

47:57

Frank. The revival is nominated for seven

47:59

Tonys. including ones for Friedman

48:01

and Graf. Merrily runs

48:03

through July 7th. Tomorrow

48:06

on Fresh Air, MSNBC host

48:08

Ali Velshi will talk about

48:10

his ancestors migrations from a

48:13

village in India through South

48:15

Africa, Kenya, and Canada. One

48:18

of the figures in the story is

48:20

Mahatma Gandhi, who knew Velshi's grandfather and

48:22

had a powerful influence on the family.

48:25

Velshi's new book is called Small Acts

48:27

of Courage, a hope you'll join us. To

48:30

keep up with what's on the show and

48:32

get highlights of our interviews, follow us on

48:34

Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh

48:44

Air's executive producer is Danny

48:46

Miller, our technical director and

48:48

engineer is Argy Benson. Our

48:50

interviews and reviews are produced

48:52

and edited by Amy Salat,

48:54

Phyllis Myers, Henry Boldonado, Sam

48:56

Brigger, Lauren Krenzel, Teresa Madden,

48:58

Thay O'Chaliner, Susan Yakundi, and

49:00

Joel Wolfram. Our digital

49:02

media producer is Molly Seavey Nester.

49:05

Roberta Shorrock directs the show.

49:07

Your co-host is Tanya Mosley.

49:10

I'm Terry Gross. Thank

49:29

you. Thank

49:58

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