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0:39

Welcome. To Gender Bill A.

0:41

Podcast where we hopefully get a

0:43

little bit closer to understanding what

0:45

the hell gender is. I'm your

0:47

host and resident gender detective Chocolate.

0:49

So. Everyone.

0:59

Happy Robin hanging in there there's you're gonna

1:01

show. I was so excited! To share my

1:03

recent conversation with the one and only saw my

1:06

to mama be Sol My Do has been a

1:08

great friend of mine for almost a decade now

1:10

and over that time it has been honestly such.

1:12

A tree and a joy to watch

1:14

him grow and flourish both creatively. And

1:16

gender Li We first spoke with

1:18

Element to in the podcast three

1:21

years ago and a lot has

1:23

changed in his life since then.

1:25

So today on the show we

1:27

talk about grad school, complicated top

1:29

surgery feelings and Salma is high

1:31

concept. Drag persona: Barracuda.

1:34

Cervix. Really gone wrong about

1:36

it. so it veers into. The.

1:38

Vulgar, the perverse, and it just

1:41

hasn't quite figured out how to

1:43

deal with sexy. We also talk

1:45

about the pros and cons of

1:47

making earnest and vulnerable work. And

1:49

how that relates to sell my to

1:51

his first solo exhibition which explores the

1:53

experience of becoming his father's son after

1:56

his father's death. My. Relationship

1:58

to hair. That's changing

2:00

based on how I change. after a point

2:02

where he would have been able to acknowledge

2:05

that change the for we get to that.

2:07

Just a quick reminder. Armored Star is still

2:09

stocked with Palestinian and Chancellor their designs with

2:11

got three of those available to the end

2:14

of the month and then we also have

2:16

our train flag designs. A ton of the

2:18

i ask me to restock them and then

2:20

you did not buy them so I'm not

2:23

very far them again and probably will at

2:25

some point but never while. So if you

2:27

want to train slide shirt or mug sticker.

2:30

Slogan. Got that? Now it's at

2:32

the.l I saw us marines. And.

2:35

Now it's time for this leak. Engender.

2:43

Cel. Last. League without a

2:46

five star Apple pie capture view. Thank you

2:48

so much for five stars. Really appreciate it

2:50

And then the text of the review. Sad.

2:52

I am begging someone to talk about how

2:55

Tsh genders every single person on a binary

2:57

and will miss gender you during Pat Downs.

3:00

And I guess the way to get me to

3:03

zoc muslim thing as requested in a five star

3:05

reveals that to be clear we have talked about

3:07

this in the pad we haven't fact that senate

3:09

to this he can gendered segments about this very

3:11

topic previously the to be fair the first one

3:14

was way back in early twenty twenty and I

3:16

am always insists same at yelled don't dig into

3:18

the archives the you know and that's on me

3:20

will do it again. But

3:22

yes, two years ago or busted as

3:25

the animatronic have a president promise of

3:27

the Tsk would phase out there terrible

3:29

gendered body scanners and replace them with

3:31

gender neutral body scanners. And while I

3:33

have seen those new neutral body scanners

3:35

in my recent travels, many airports still

3:37

have what amounts of penis detection machines

3:39

that you have to go through in

3:41

order to get on your flights. But

3:44

here's the thing. This is the podcast

3:46

for drancy balls that we know. There's

3:48

really no the for trans you have penises.

3:50

That he has a scanner or a

3:52

sort of guaranteed groping checkpoints. In fact,

3:54

several different transcends have done comedies. That's

3:56

about the topic I have seen them.

3:59

We also know. the here they ate

4:01

incentive like dilate areas and then not know

4:03

what they. Are which leads to some really

4:05

fun And while that are. And

4:07

of course we know that that he has

4:10

a dick. The Texans services serve no demonstrable.

4:12

Public good at door do the

4:14

security checkpoints writ large because as

4:16

he discussed previously on the segments

4:18

that he has a was created

4:20

in November two thousand and then

4:23

for the explicit purpose of performing

4:25

security theater. Not providing actual. Security.

4:27

Just tricking the public into thinking that

4:29

the government was doing literally anything to

4:32

prevent Nine Eleven to the Prequels besides

4:34

starting various wars in the Middle East

4:36

And most of you probably remember that

4:38

in place of Teen At the T

4:40

as they made headlines for failing. To

4:42

stop Ninety five percent of

4:45

the weapons inspectors. Attempted to

4:47

sneak through the airport screening seasons as

4:49

part of their regular auditing program. Ninety

4:51

five percent at that rate, I genuinely

4:54

assume the only way they have any

4:56

weapons was because those bags also contains

4:58

like a candle or a burrito or

5:00

souvenir bottle opener from the airports, which

5:03

are all real reasons that my bags

5:05

have been flagged to the last year.

5:08

Anyway, I don't know what I can add

5:10

to this that has not already been said

5:12

by me on the So as well as

5:14

by other trans people for the last twenty

5:16

two years. As I guess I will just

5:19

tell you another silly little sorry for my

5:21

own experiences I did last time. but here's

5:23

a different one. A year or two ago

5:25

I was flying out of pediatrics. I was

5:27

wearing a girl pool assert. And a

5:29

masks and made Sas got flagged by

5:32

the body scanner so someone had to

5:34

pat me down. So. Course the ts

5:36

a man and that he has a woman just stood

5:38

there looking at each other trying to figure out who's

5:40

about me down and finally that he has a man

5:42

said. How do you.

5:45

Identify. And.

5:48

The thing about me. Is that I'm three

5:50

annoying and of assist person ask

5:52

my gender. I typically will not

5:54

give them a straight answer so.

5:56

Instead. I said, you know,

5:59

are you. Do it and he has

6:01

like. Ah so ah pat you

6:03

down and i said look there's nothing

6:05

up there if that's what you're asking

6:07

and then he laughed and he patted

6:09

me down and has he was doing

6:11

a he said the just that is

6:13

used because you have really nice eyes

6:16

and also your shirt says girl law

6:18

that. So.

6:23

He ends owl if you like

6:25

me own. Several items have merged

6:27

from the now defunct band Girl

6:29

Pool. Otherwise, the most common

6:32

solution for trans people as to get to

6:34

as a pretax are you give the government

6:36

seventy eight dollars and they send you through

6:38

a metal detector in said. This.

6:40

Is Ben this week in gender.

6:49

We've. Got a they mail message for you today

6:51

they melt or of course little messages some listeners

6:53

and is a link and the show not for

6:55

you to submit your own. This message as from

6:57

Max Burns you acts and it says are you

6:59

looking for a new website or logo for your

7:01

small business. Or nonprofit max for and they

7:03

clear Transat binary web and logo designer

7:05

based out of North Carolina who specializes

7:08

in making. Accessible and affordable web sites

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and logos mention that you heard them

7:12

on gender appeal and Max will give

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you ten percent off your first project.

7:16

Together, learn more at Max Burns You

7:18

acts.com. Okay, One

7:20

click add them will go to the interview. Here we go.

7:24

Believe it or not, am a pretty

7:26

private person. I don't like to share

7:28

intimate details of people. I just may.

7:30

I certainly don't want strangers to be

7:32

able to look at my home address

7:34

or my family member's name. Is there

7:37

any other personal info? really? And that's

7:39

why I continue to. You Delete mean,

7:41

Delete Me routinely scans hundreds of data

7:43

broker web sites to make sure that

7:45

very personal information is not easily available

7:47

online. Delete Me can also scrub and

7:49

so tied to did names and other

7:51

aliases. You can join today at dwindling

7:53

me.com fast gender reveal. and use the

7:55

code twenty to twenty percent asked higher

7:57

order and is tucked twenty or twenty

7:59

one off and join the lead meter

8:01

crowd, Ashjinder of Yale. Salamatou

8:14

Amababi is a trans Nigerian

8:16

American chef and multimedia artist

8:18

working in food, film, photography,

8:20

sculpture, and installation. His

8:22

work focuses on the intersection of

8:24

food and art while centering community

8:26

activism, African diasporic culinary traditions, and

8:29

black queer and trans liberation. Amababi

8:31

is the founder and director of

8:33

Blackface, a culinary event celebrating black

8:35

artists and writers. The

8:46

way we always start the show is by asking

8:48

in terms of gender, how do you describe yourself?

8:52

I should have expected this

8:55

question. I

8:58

describe myself as trans. Totally.

9:01

Anything new in your gender since we last

9:03

spoke, which for context was almost exactly three

9:05

years ago? Oh my

9:07

god. On the podcast. You and

9:09

I have spoken. Yeah. On

9:11

the public record. I

9:14

had top surgery. I started

9:17

taking testosterone. So

9:20

yeah, those are definitely new developments in

9:22

the last three years. Okay.

9:24

Beyond gender, what sort of new in

9:26

your life since we last spoke three

9:29

years ago that people might want to know? Yeah,

9:31

I moved to the Bay

9:33

Area. I started grad

9:40

school. Oh, I started

9:42

performing as a drag

9:44

performer. I had my

9:47

first museum solo show.

9:49

Feels like a big update. Great.

9:51

These are all things I'm going to ask

9:53

you follow up questions about. Let's go down

9:55

the list. You're in grad school. Why are

9:57

you Choosing to do this

9:59

program? What are you hoping? Till explore

10:01

or learn and get out of it? For.

10:04

I'm in grad school for art

10:06

practice and so a lot. of

10:08

that came from. Making

10:11

work with black fees

10:13

and making Merc that

10:15

was very community centered

10:17

and also kind of

10:19

being in this constant

10:21

cycle of. Production.

10:23

And event production. So I came

10:25

to the Bay Area for residency

10:28

and and I had all of

10:30

the studio time and it's a

10:32

cell. Really good to be back

10:35

and a space where I just

10:37

got to like. Make.

10:39

And create things and over

10:41

home and site as they

10:43

haven't. Abandoned community

10:45

centered work time base

10:47

work or social practice

10:50

by. Any means. But I

10:52

do feel like it's really exciting

10:54

to also be in a space

10:56

where I get to make things

10:59

and half a studio, practice and

11:01

up felt really really. Special and

11:04

also getting. To have input. So

11:06

even though it's it's have a

11:08

hard to have input sometimes. Or

11:10

it's hard to have this

11:13

kind of concentrated time of

11:15

constant employed and constant to

11:17

six deep deep thinking. In

11:19

and digging around in her mind.

11:22

Hung up. Also the thing that

11:24

I wanted to know about what

11:26

I came to grad school for

11:28

medical from the part about rascal

11:30

was really really difficult feat. Are

11:32

you hop of this work at

11:34

all this like deep and turtle

11:36

proper thing happen a. High.

11:42

Stress and a long. Time time

11:44

Restriction. You. Work ah

11:46

in. So many different. Mediums,

11:49

And I was wondering do you feel

11:51

like they're seems that hi all of

11:53

your different work. Together.

11:56

I think the themes that times together

11:58

but I'm doing have pursued thought. I

12:02

don't know I I just I feel

12:04

like a person with a lot of

12:06

interests and I haven't really figured. Out

12:08

a way to kind of package.

12:11

Those things and

12:13

I've. Gotten kind of

12:15

bored with the. Idea.

12:17

That I should have. Do not

12:19

saying that you're saying that I

12:22

should have to know. It often

12:24

makes me feel very chaotic to

12:26

be pulled and these different directions

12:28

and I often imagine like what

12:30

my neighbors saying as I'm rushing

12:32

like huge catering trades into my

12:34

car and then the next day

12:36

I have a full drag outfit

12:38

made on the side of but

12:40

I'm rushing to my car and

12:42

then the next say I'm covered

12:44

completely and blue paint because the

12:47

her. During a violent boca heard

12:49

drag my birch see it out

12:51

look like the third eye his

12:54

face to vector spaces. I was

12:56

hooked. kind of embracing For me

12:58

is is about gender. It does

13:01

relate to gender because I just

13:03

think of myself as a as

13:05

a house for many different beings

13:08

and they all are employed So

13:10

sometimes. They

13:12

all have dogs. They have all

13:15

different routes. they have different outfit.

13:17

They have different likes and dislikes

13:20

and they're all trying to make.

13:23

Him. And bustle their home. And

13:26

that you know sometimes chaos. Ensues

13:28

and via of that sets

13:30

of parents I'd pick up

13:32

a spell live in the

13:34

same house? Oh my God.

13:36

Speaking of ledge, tell about

13:38

Barracuda. Barracuda is one of

13:40

the people who lives in

13:42

the house. so yeah that

13:44

one of the being a

13:46

it is a. Drag.

13:49

Monster And Barracuda

13:52

is really. Known

13:55

for. Pulling. Things

13:57

out of it's body and putting

13:59

sitting pretty. The body at length.

14:01

Of surprise ending. The

14:04

idea behind it and sped

14:07

it's kind of this amalgamation

14:09

or com police and oh.

14:12

Crowdsourced. Desires and

14:15

that is kind of

14:17

experiencing a glitch. so.

14:20

The. Idea is that it's from a

14:22

different reality and at sort of

14:24

learned about. What? Humans

14:26

like kind of a chronic

14:29

people pleaser. Also had have

14:31

learned what humans like from

14:33

Instagram tic toc, Google thirst,

14:36

so fitness, popular threads and

14:38

then of kind of trying

14:40

to. Be. Those things

14:42

by Civics really gone wrong

14:44

about it so it veers

14:46

into the vulgar of a

14:48

perverse and it says haven't

14:50

quite figured out how to

14:52

deal with sexy so it's

14:54

us sort of goes into

14:56

overthrow. Of

14:59

a battery idea Record Birch Good

15:01

A does does everything at one

15:04

hundred fifty percent to the point

15:06

where it doesn't really make for

15:08

them city more. As he said

15:10

something about pulling things. Out of

15:12

it's body. What are some things

15:14

that's been pulled out and even

15:16

now? Ah well. There's one performance

15:19

from where I made this. Code.

15:22

That's all blonde hair, you know?

15:24

Like Barracuda learned that people really

15:26

have a thing for blonde hair.

15:29

Success is. for

15:31

rape of coat out of all blonde

15:34

hair along with the. Blonde.

15:36

Wig and than has abroad

15:38

made a blonde hair and

15:40

a song made a blonde

15:43

hair and then it pulls

15:45

The. Blonde, bring it out of

15:47

it's boot that has a butt

15:49

plug attached and then puts the

15:52

butt plug and onstage and then

15:54

a kind of has this long

15:56

blond tail and then the end

15:58

of the performance it paul. The

16:00

blonde breed out of it's current

16:02

and that kind of like the

16:04

others reveal so you know it's

16:07

like oh you love blondes was

16:09

is. What

16:11

about? This is a. Sus

16:15

Law. As the gender podcast I

16:17

have to ask. Why? Relationship

16:19

does. Barracuda is sort

16:22

of gender and express

16:24

which seems really informed

16:26

by. What? It thinks other

16:28

people whine. How. Does not relate

16:30

to your own gender and presentation

16:33

as it's evolved. Yeah. I

16:35

think the. the

16:37

for Barracuda emerged came into

16:40

my life that I kind

16:42

of had this crisis. Every

16:44

time I went out which

16:47

was trying to figure out.

16:50

Who. In the house. Was

16:52

being the loudest. And

16:55

wanted to dress the body

16:57

that day. And

17:00

now I feel

17:02

like. Barracuda.

17:05

Has its time, minutes, space

17:07

and it knows that. And

17:09

definitely if I don't get

17:11

to do. A show for

17:13

a month? I can feel.

17:16

The Barracuda as sleeps in of

17:18

rearing to get out and to

17:20

express itself so it is very

17:22

much an outlet for that you

17:24

know. He'll hair.

17:28

Issue though. ah as oh

17:30

hey, you know, The.

17:33

Outside of persona at which very

17:35

much lives inside of me and

17:37

I think that the more than

17:39

I am able to. Really?

17:42

Celebrate them and honor

17:44

them! And. Give them space to

17:46

express themselves though less it

17:48

feels like they are fighting

17:51

with each other or kind

17:53

of competing with each other

17:55

to be heard. And.

17:57

I really feel. I

17:59

said. The ones. That.

18:02

I often felt. The Blake.

18:04

I was not using a singular they,

18:06

but I was using a plural they.

18:08

I feel like whoa. There are a

18:11

lot of. Spirit. Bernard.

18:14

Existing. Inside this form

18:16

and drive made it

18:18

also so. God Barracuda

18:20

has. Has its time

18:22

and space to express itself and

18:25

so that awesome puts less pressure

18:27

on the day to day before

18:29

pay. Yeah, I'd now. Feels like

18:32

I can kind of just get

18:34

dressed in the morning. it? it

18:36

doesn't really matter that much because

18:39

I'm not trying to figure out.

18:42

How. To express. All.

18:44

Of these things. Accurately, I just

18:46

I hadn't given them their

18:49

stayed a given them their

18:51

face to adverse to Mrs.

18:53

Fields More harmonious now. yeah.

18:55

As. You mentioned you recently had

18:57

your first solo museums how called

19:00

signed as L and and my

19:02

understanding is that it's so much

19:04

about. Your. Father and and

19:06

masculinity. I do feel like

19:08

you learned anything about. Your.

19:11

Own masculinity or just masculine d as a

19:13

concept or at large like while you're working

19:15

on. That. Exhibition. I'm

19:18

still figuring. Out! what the fuck Masculinity

19:20

is totally. I mean I have no

19:22

idea how. I was just hoping maybe

19:25

you and second at all and would

19:27

tell me by that's an understandable and.

19:31

Yeah, I still have no idea,

19:33

and I think that that's a

19:36

little bit. What it's

19:38

about as is thinking about

19:40

late. Fees. Possible.

19:43

Realities and creating the

19:45

space. For speculation around what

19:47

relationships could have been or how

19:50

they could have changed. And I

19:52

think that being someone's kid is

19:54

really interesting because we talk about

19:57

it in such a gendered way.

19:59

Ah, So that kind of

20:01

this. Move. Is man

20:04

entered being someone saw. Is.

20:06

Directly about that. Languages

20:08

about what you. Are

20:10

to someone how? But. Also

20:13

based. On how you identify

20:15

and I think that my

20:17

dad no longer living. Is

20:20

It was just really interesting to think

20:22

about how. My relationship

20:24

to Ham is changing

20:26

based on how I

20:28

change. After. A point

20:31

where he would have been able

20:33

to acknowledge that change I'm so

20:35

there's some Greece or not, but

20:37

then also thinking about. How.

20:40

Does one become a son? And

20:42

what does that whole them? What

20:45

does that mean? And. Where.

20:47

Did I come up with my

20:49

ideas around one Masculinity is and

20:52

what it is and are And

20:54

so. A lot of it stemmed from

20:56

just this footage that I had found

20:58

out. My. Dad and I

21:00

dare say in i think I

21:02

was maybe. Two or

21:04

three. and I'm trying to mirror

21:07

of my dad's movements. and he's

21:09

wearing the Slammer Com Boom sweatpants

21:12

dark for sweatpants and I when

21:14

I saw that footage, it felt

21:16

really emotional for a lot of

21:19

reasons, but also because I really

21:21

recognized my cells. In my

21:23

Dad but also had never felt

21:25

like I wanted to be him

21:27

or become him ever. In My life.

21:30

And so that seeing that this thing was

21:32

sort of happening and. Also. Thinking about

21:34

how I had sought a

21:36

bow. What? Type of body.

21:38

I wanted to have to. And

21:41

then thinking about you know and

21:43

in having top surgery. I.

21:47

Had. A lot of

21:49

trouble. thinking. About flatness in

21:51

relation to myself and also in

21:53

relation to what I thought was

21:55

sort of oh masculine chest for

21:57

me or with that made sense.

22:00

For me, just. Didn't feel

22:02

play. It. Could be

22:04

fly and then looking back at

22:06

the his foot is and seen

22:09

my dad's body and. My brother's

22:11

body my Volga of course you

22:13

spot that because that's what their

22:15

bodies look plate and so also

22:17

kind of wonder anger meditating on.

22:20

There were all of these messages

22:22

and mirroring that was happening that

22:24

I wasn't fully aware of. He

22:26

know and so in this video

22:29

I'm very consciously mirroring what might

22:31

that is doing and just thinking

22:33

about were all of that comes

22:35

from and where the. The

22:38

conscious decisions. And what are

22:40

the unconscious? The seasons. And often

22:42

times. I'm. Making work a bow, Things.

22:45

That still unresolved for me

22:47

are things that I have

22:49

a lot of questions about

22:51

and. Is also thinking about

22:53

how. My. Dad kind of

22:56

lives in my body through

22:58

the way that I carry

23:00

myself, She the way that

23:02

I move. And. Also

23:04

a at least a little

23:06

bit and how I've. Chosen

23:09

to transition. Something.

23:11

The I have experienced having.

23:14

A father who passed

23:16

away. I. increasingly.

23:18

Have a hard time not. Read.

23:21

Pawning him into something easier

23:23

than it was. And

23:25

I feel like. So.

23:27

Much. Of. My

23:30

explorations and. What?

23:32

A relationship with my dad might

23:34

look like now he were alive.

23:37

Is like so a historical in

23:39

a way because I'm like realistically.

23:43

Can't just with wouldn't be working at

23:45

all. Ah, and because. He

23:47

didn't pass away. It's. Easier for

23:49

me to like, forget all of the rough

23:52

edges and just sort of think about what

23:54

it would be like to have. A.

23:56

Dad that I wanted to have that

23:58

I'm imagining. Ah, So as

24:00

someone who's making work. About.

24:03

Your died, How do you

24:05

avoid? Making. Up a new

24:07

version of your.that would be more convenient. or

24:09

do you not avoid it may be that's

24:11

like part of the work in itself is.

24:14

Reinvesting. Something. Fuck.

24:17

What a great place to. Do

24:23

you know this is why the thing? the

24:25

big bugs. Five

24:28

dollars a month. And.

24:31

Honestly, You get Interview Be a

24:33

diary An interview Me. Every morning Me:

24:35

why are you like it would

24:37

be helpful Especially Fairfax. Oh. No,

24:40

that's that's actually exactly what it's

24:42

about. You know is actually

24:44

late. This. Space.

24:47

Oh, kind of miss remembering

24:49

things for you know, and

24:51

thinking about how memory functions

24:53

and and how. In a

24:56

way like that footage that I. Have.

24:59

I don't have that as a memory.

25:01

You know I have that as. Footage.

25:03

Which then becomes a memory because

25:06

I've watched that footage though many

25:08

times and send me that's kind

25:10

of late. Became. This

25:13

late in, such

25:15

heavy. Heavy and. Dark

25:18

memories of my childhood.

25:21

And have a lot of positive

25:23

memories of my dad and and

25:25

I don't really know actually. What

25:28

our relationship would be like. Now.

25:31

But. A. Lot of

25:34

how I got through

25:36

a really tough childhood

25:38

was through. This. Association.

25:42

And through creating an

25:44

imaginary. Worlds there I was

25:46

able to exist. In

25:49

simultaneously. To

25:51

existing in you know of really

25:53

a tough environment. So.

25:56

When I think about. My.

25:59

Own memory The I'm sure that.

26:01

It's since Herbert this thread

26:03

still a fit fit that

26:05

at since the so murky

26:08

and so six snow. And.

26:11

Kind of them in a place

26:13

where I think that. That

26:15

the museum might actually

26:17

be the best thing.

26:19

For me. And so

26:21

the if kind of moving

26:23

back and forth between the

26:25

real in the surreal are

26:27

the real and the imagine.

26:29

And and thinking about. How

26:32

we kind of build. Retroactively, her

26:34

build our. Own.

26:37

Backgrounds or own memories for ourselves. And

26:39

I think that that's actually a really.

26:42

Exciting space to be. An and

26:44

and so for my thesis. I'm

26:46

working a lot with performing artists

26:48

and and so for that piece

26:50

in the museum. There's also. This

26:52

video projection where I was

26:54

working way. Black. Trans

26:56

and non binary performers.

26:59

Who. Then looked at that dance

27:02

and then created their own

27:04

performance. Wearing. The same. White

27:06

talk to him sweatpants arm

27:08

and so there's this way

27:11

which is being translated and

27:13

read translated and then also

27:15

becomes a section and I

27:17

think said. That to me

27:20

is like a really exciting space that

27:22

be in a. Secluded. Can

27:24

be really good to do that. Because

27:26

yes, some of us don't have

27:29

that many. Great memories to

27:31

build up though, but we can kind

27:33

of. I. Think you're allowed to make.

27:35

Things. Up. Vague.

27:38

I think you kind of have to

27:40

make things up because if I didn't

27:42

make up. A. Future for

27:45

myself and imagine

27:47

something. Better than the things

27:49

that I was experiencing at any

27:51

given time. I just wouldn't be

27:54

here. I've. Had to do that

27:56

my whole life and and so think that this

27:58

is a place where I'm. To

28:00

flee doing that and work. Is.

28:03

Talking about. The

28:05

people who. Who

28:07

don't have? A beautiful history

28:10

to reflect on and kind of.

28:12

That. We can speculate a beautiful

28:15

history, or we can imagine

28:17

a beautiful history or a

28:19

beautiful future and fill in

28:21

the spaces. There.

28:23

Are empty with something that we

28:26

want to be there. So.

28:29

This whole congress a sign. Is

28:32

reminding me how uncomfortable I got

28:34

when I try to do sincere

28:37

were. Ah, and

28:39

and I feel like that's something

28:41

that you're very good. I like

28:43

your work is. Generally extremely

28:45

since you're not that it can have like

28:47

play fall elements in moments and against are

28:50

two things like they're queued are a lot

28:52

more playful by it's a lot of your

28:54

work is a pretty sincere. Is.

28:56

Awesome things! I. Comes naturally to

28:58

you. Or is that something that you

29:00

have to also kind of work? that

29:03

that allowing that vulnerability to happen. Now

29:05

I wanna see so many questions about

29:07

why is a difficult to make work

29:09

that still sincere. I think

29:12

it's a combination of two things and

29:14

one is that it's not anyone's business

29:16

and that's the main one. Is.

29:18

It's like I don't want

29:20

to tell you my actual

29:23

feelings. those are mine And

29:25

similarly, Having air sealing

29:27

witnessed by someone who is

29:29

going to. Take. It

29:31

in bad faith or is who who

29:34

is going to just not understand their

29:36

on a fundamental love law? I is

29:38

not appealing to me like it's nice

29:40

to share something with someone where you

29:42

know like oh you know you had

29:44

a similar experiences may resonate with you

29:46

but it's like putting out in the

29:49

world. Is like wow.

29:51

Is. This doesn't resonate with you actually don't

29:54

wanna hear what you have to say about

29:56

I if you know. If it's

29:58

I don't know. Wow.

30:00

I think I'm used to being messengers

30:02

said and I don't really feel the

30:05

need to like invite that. In

30:07

my life about anything that matters. Whereas.

30:10

Or so and misunderstands a joke. I'm like, what

30:12

as you know, Who gets the said? I

30:14

don't know them because I like people

30:17

are people can be really city and

30:19

I think that. For. Me it's

30:21

kind of like that. like maybe the

30:23

opposite or it's the same thing, but

30:26

an opposite. the opposite. Method Zero is

30:28

like yeah, I feel like people can

30:30

be really city, but I feel like

30:32

it's super hard to be city when

30:35

you know that someone says. That.

30:37

They're not bowl sitting You hear

30:39

know they're really like. This.

30:42

Is Real. This is the real

30:44

honest truth of what I'm experiencing.

30:47

And sometimes I actually feel

30:49

like. Like. I need to

30:51

do the opposite because especially

30:53

in school I'm just like

30:55

I think I'm and away

30:57

so afraid of people's criticism.

31:00

That I make. The.

31:03

Most. Of

31:06

it's. Overly involved, deep

31:08

looking for a couple

31:10

sit the fuck. With

31:13

we can add have any

31:15

Dogs are particularly healthy of.

31:18

Fruits either insists. Yeah, so I'm

31:20

I'm actually trying to reel it

31:22

in a little bit because they

31:25

think the. Is sometimes

31:27

that happens where I look at my work

31:29

and I'm like damn, why is the so

31:31

sad when you. Such.

31:35

As a have heard a lot of semester and for

31:37

of work to think of numbers. Have. Really didn't

31:39

mean to make this that sad. But

31:41

it's so sad. Yeah, so

31:43

other know if excel so.

31:46

Probably. That's a big part of it is. says.

31:49

Being like while. If

31:51

I'm going to make something

31:53

and. People. Are going

31:55

to. Say. Things are

31:58

you know, be hard. Sir

32:00

Do whatever I lisa

32:03

want to. Feel. Like

32:05

I'm saying something that. Is. Like the most

32:07

on as so people are like.

32:10

That. Sucks. I'm like wow. Yeah

32:12

I've name is Ben. it's offer.

32:14

You just. Yeah. Wow

32:18

at the last gender real life so we'd

32:21

like to french rato about the Fire Island

32:23

Darling basin were much a people. Went to

32:25

Bear Island Target time and she mentioned ceiling

32:27

that the media covering the of and it

32:30

was trying to make it into something that

32:32

was like necessary and historic and she was

32:34

like actually what kind of like trying to

32:36

have a good time. And.

32:39

Before we talked this time I as

32:41

as he defines. You. Know other

32:44

interviews with you in case there's anything

32:46

about your life that I missed by

32:48

to sort of being your friend Ambient

32:50

Li and so many of the interviews

32:52

were like all about blocks east and

32:54

like twenty twenty twenty twenty One and

32:56

Ice I was wondering is. Annie.

32:58

Of what I just said about France thing like

33:00

resonated with you and the coverage of your work.

33:03

Oh yeah yeah, it

33:05

feels like if you

33:07

google me. You think they're

33:09

after. Twenty. Twenty I

33:12

stopped making. Up

33:15

Words: is the wilds

33:18

actually buy it? Isn't

33:21

surprising at this point and I

33:23

feel kind of like a yeah

33:25

a really. Just felt like I'm

33:28

actually just like one summer of

33:30

people really really really giving us

33:32

it and then. Not.

33:35

And. Or even know if this is a. The or question.

33:38

I guess when I'm asking is like. Do.

33:41

You feel like people's incredible

33:43

need right now to be

33:45

like. Look. At this

33:47

power farm black trans person doing

33:50

and poor since. I.

33:54

Desire. Every like overshadow the

33:56

actual message or. Actual

33:58

intense. The your work because

34:01

I guess what I'm saying here also is

34:03

what I noticed in a lot of interviews

34:05

is that it was all kind of the

34:07

same questions and the questions were like. You.

34:10

Know how did you know you wanted

34:12

to make things for black people? How do

34:14

you combined food and art? Why did they

34:17

feel important to do this? And I

34:19

didn't see a lot of questions about like.

34:21

Ingredients. Or sourcing or plating.

34:24

or Sudan sex. or like anything

34:26

about that. It was all kind

34:28

of like. What? His identity

34:30

have to do with us and I think that

34:32

identity is really important and the work that you

34:34

and ideal. But. I also think you're

34:36

like doing other things like making our

34:39

and food and I'm like not really

34:41

seeing that being discussed as from my

34:43

you know from the outside from just

34:46

googling. So yeah I guess I just

34:48

curious if you feel like people are

34:50

an ever overlooking your intent behind things

34:52

in their urge to like attempt to

34:55

see you tmt I'm here during that

34:57

time definitely. Very strange feeling to

34:59

be a soft and have so many

35:01

people write about your work with our

35:03

Ebert. Trying. Your food. Assistance

35:07

with a strange thing. I'm

35:09

where I'm a really good

35:11

serve your secret no specific.

35:16

I make food for black people

35:18

a hand also I suspect because

35:20

and also it's good sort allow

35:22

affects. And I actually like. The

35:24

weird thing is that it being good. Matters.

35:27

So. Much because the

35:30

point of it isn't

35:32

actually they. Were

35:34

like giving people who is you

35:36

know is we're giving people who

35:38

that is made with a lot

35:40

of care and a lot of

35:43

love and a lot of songs

35:45

and that their concepts around every

35:47

single aspect of these diseases. And

35:49

a seal. Like. Some

35:52

things of Death My sisters

35:54

in the last thirty three

35:56

years. Mostly the people just don't

35:58

really interview me sick before. Oh well

36:00

I said if I am I going to. Stay.

36:04

You know when they do is feels

36:07

like. More about. The things

36:09

that I am making and less about

36:11

the fact that I'm making them for

36:13

black people. Things have changed. A lot

36:15

and I don't know that people are.

36:18

Thinking about things and a different way.

36:20

I think it's also just like that.

36:22

like the heat of the moment has

36:24

passed. For a lot of people. So.

36:27

They're not. Focusing

36:30

on on those same as.

36:39

Mentioned you had top surgery.

36:41

The whole thing seems like

36:43

kind of an ordeal and

36:45

none of the or deal

36:47

it's your fault obviously by

36:49

a sense. People. Every

36:52

day or have his hop surgery

36:54

you have any advice for other

36:56

people embarking on the top surgery

36:58

journey. Things that you. Think.

37:00

Other people should now. Yeah, it really

37:02

was. It wasn't or a deal.

37:05

I mean, I'm excited to get

37:07

to the point where. We're.

37:09

thinking. Maybe more

37:11

creatively about the things that we

37:14

want. And I think that

37:16

that's happening more. and now by

37:18

the thing is that a lot

37:20

of. Surgeons. I

37:22

think and. I'm. Sure people

37:25

have things to say about this,

37:27

but I feel like a lot

37:29

of surgeons, how's. In

37:31

their mind, the way that. Many

37:33

people might want their top surgery to

37:35

go and to look. And

37:37

some surgeons you may have

37:39

to be really specific and

37:41

I think it's really helpful

37:43

to have a person go

37:45

with you. Ah, or think

37:47

it's helpful to have things

37:49

written down that you want

37:51

and things. That. You don't want and

37:54

you can also share images of things that

37:56

you don't want. Be like, hey, I don't

37:58

like the wave of those folks. I

38:00

have a surgeon who. Had

38:03

me down for over a

38:05

different type of surgery up

38:07

until the day that I

38:09

was having surgery and. That.

38:12

This the scary thing and it's a

38:14

hard space at the end and I

38:16

have a hard time talking about it

38:18

because I think. Since.

38:20

There's so much anti

38:22

trans bowl said. It

38:25

feels like. The. Only

38:27

narrative that can exist as that.

38:29

like. We. Feel really.

38:32

Lucky to have. These

38:35

resources and a happy

38:37

surgeries available. And

38:39

that is true. And

38:41

it's also true that.

38:43

There. Are still issues. You

38:45

know there are still issues

38:48

with care. They're still his

38:50

shoes with how black people

38:52

are treated in the medical

38:54

for those things are not

38:56

like automatically are raised. Because.

39:00

We're receiving gender affirming

39:02

care at Like not

39:04

the great equalizer so

39:06

so says. To be billie

39:09

fierce and how you're advocating

39:11

for yourself and ask for

39:13

help from people? Ask for

39:15

advice. There are some really

39:17

amazing. Groups. And forums

39:20

out there there have been

39:22

super helpful and. You've.

39:24

Been an amazing resource for me. I

39:27

think gender reveal is an incredible. Resource

39:29

Truly truly. And to be

39:31

able to like. Talk with

39:33

people about things that feel

39:36

hard. I follow super

39:38

disappointed with like my first

39:40

surgery. And I was having. Really,

39:43

really tough time. Like some

39:45

of the heaviest stance ever.

39:48

But. I also have people who I was

39:51

able to reach out to like you. And

39:53

I'm and I had other friends who

39:55

were able to talk with me and

39:57

told me that things were gonna be

39:59

okay. And. Things are okay, Yes,

40:02

I need to get

40:04

a revision. Suspicion Flake

40:06

Mistakes. Were made and

40:09

also not everyone loves

40:11

their surgery. And that's

40:13

ok. You know, like it's okay to

40:16

be one of the people who. Did.

40:18

Not have. This moment of like

40:20

a. Truly. Life affirming

40:23

Brazil and I think we

40:25

have to be able to

40:27

hold those narratives as well.

40:29

And. It's really

40:31

hard when. Flake.

40:34

The. Only narrative that we can

40:36

hold us one of gender euphoria

40:39

for it's like leave deserves to

40:41

have access to these resources. We

40:43

deserve the have access to gender

40:45

affirming care. And also

40:48

people may feel disappointed.

40:50

And there will be soccer

40:52

and we have to be

40:54

able to hold people's experience

40:57

as well. Right will?

40:59

because when I heard from you. Is

41:01

not like wow I wish I never had

41:03

top surgery and had my head spot wedding

41:05

hearing from you as i wish that the

41:08

quality of care that I received was butter

41:10

which are to really different things and I

41:12

think you know when. There's. All

41:14

this talk about like regret among friends,

41:16

the sand and surgery and how we

41:19

have to be really on message that

41:21

no one has ever regretted transitioning. Like.

41:23

You're saying it does. Seem. Like

41:26

it's taking away our rights to

41:28

not be happy with it. But

41:30

I would argue there's a huge

41:32

difference between regret parentheses wish you

41:34

know that this had never happened,

41:36

and regret parentheses wish that. People.

41:38

Would get it together. Ended up doing

41:40

the medical racism and stop being on

41:43

their dogs. You know good and the

41:45

reason why so many sargent or lot

41:47

to be about at their jobs is

41:49

because trans people have that pressure to

41:51

accept whatever their kids and right and

41:54

so if we had more space to

41:56

demand better this would happen less often

41:58

because people would be highly hannibal friend

42:00

at work in a more real way

42:03

I think. And you know looking back

42:05

through. The. Archives as trans

42:07

surgery is like that's been true the

42:09

whole time. You know sense the ads

42:11

and says that an apostate at all

42:14

was the situation where people who received

42:16

care felt like they couldn't criticize the

42:18

city care they were receiving because they

42:20

need to be great for and. Honestly,

42:23

In that way, it almost ties back to what you're saying

42:25

about. Black see them being like it's not this

42:27

that we're giving them food, were giving them beautiful failed. It's

42:29

like. We. Should just get surgery. she

42:32

get a beautiful surgery. Yeah this is.

42:35

Exactly yeah I feel even now

42:37

talking about it. I feel sometimes

42:39

a little bit. Guilty like

42:41

conceal it. I shouldn't say

42:44

lake yeah, I wasn't. Happy.

42:46

With my first

42:48

results and also

42:50

I am so.

42:53

So. Happy that I had

42:55

have searched for a pic of

42:57

and so exactly exactly what you're

42:59

saying and other regret is not

43:01

at all about having the surgery.

43:04

I would do it again effect

43:06

since it's it's and will have

43:08

to do it again one more

43:10

time. Ah with. By,

43:13

you know? and and it's

43:15

Ceos Lake. You know, like

43:17

I don't wanna be the

43:19

party pooper, but I. Also.

43:22

Would love for years. Tell

43:25

us all to be

43:28

receiving than highest does

43:30

greatest. Quality of care. Possible.

43:33

And yeah, That's what

43:35

I hope for when I want. Not

43:38

know I love to whisper network about

43:40

surgeons because that's the only way you're

43:42

gonna get and so regime is like

43:45

Reddit and your friends being like up

43:47

her.ones wilde oprah.when actually listens to you

43:49

you know like or else he gonna

43:51

go anyway if anything else that you

43:53

wanted to talk about today that we

43:55

haven't talked about anything in your mind's

43:58

eye kind. Of Cilic revisiting. In

44:01

our last interview. Because I

44:03

think that I hadn't. Maybe

44:05

they talk to my family about

44:07

being trans Fats trail and actually

44:09

kind of badly which was interesting

44:12

and I think the one I

44:14

did the last interview I thought

44:16

that people would most the. Sith.

44:19

Find it irritating. And.

44:21

Then when I did talk to

44:24

some people my family about having

44:26

surgery, the people got really mad

44:28

and I'm sure. That many

44:30

people have had that experience.

44:33

But. I was kind

44:35

of expecting sadness or grieve, but

44:37

I wasn't expecting people to be

44:39

angry with me. For some reason

44:41

people are really attached to Tip.

44:44

Like family members who he didn't even

44:46

think. Knew. About your to

44:48

speak about your debts cared about

44:50

your services. Early

44:52

they had a whole fan accounts for

44:55

your to. Okay,

45:01

The. Way we always on the cell is

45:03

basking in your ideal world. What?

45:05

What the future of gender? Look.

45:08

Like. Think say.

45:11

We're authors, Out

45:13

here. With or genders.

45:16

Living. They

45:18

be that we have an understanding

45:20

with each other. Around.

45:24

What? We see all gender to be.

45:26

And that doesn't mean like

45:29

a universal definition, but his

45:31

fleet fascinating to me that

45:33

in all these like conversations

45:36

on. I have a

45:38

lot of our the language, like

45:40

anti trans language, a lot of

45:42

the people using that language of

45:45

little really know where. Being.

45:47

Trances or gender is

45:49

And so I. Think

45:51

that. I guess

45:54

I wonder maybe that's the thing

45:56

as I don't know that I

45:58

have a specific hope, but I

46:01

wonder what would happen. If

46:03

we were to gain

46:06

or gather a. Collective

46:09

understanding. Of

46:11

how we want to talk

46:13

about. Gender. What?

46:16

I really hope. For is

46:18

for people's safety

46:20

and freedom. Like.

46:23

The freedom to. Express

46:25

yourself without fear that. Feels

46:28

like it feels like such

46:30

so cheesy answer to say.

46:32

but I think more and

46:34

more. The. More places that

46:36

I go and I can see all.

46:39

When. I feel safe and one, I

46:41

feel unsafe. In my body.

46:44

In the way that I dress,

46:46

I just. Want that feeling

46:48

of safety all the time

46:50

to solve an I want

46:53

that feeling of safety all

46:55

the time for everyone else.

46:57

And. I don't know. I think

46:59

that my own. Futures are being

47:01

constantly worry imagined, like

47:03

the things that I

47:06

wanna constantly sustain and

47:08

growing over time. But

47:10

I also really hope

47:12

for a fee for

47:14

the space to. Fantasize

47:18

about. Sutured.

47:20

Centers. And

47:22

foreign says expression.

47:25

They. Go well beyond. What

47:27

you see around you. And.

47:35

Ah, What? They. Thought.

47:38

They could be com. I feel

47:40

like. That. of the process

47:42

is happening within me and a

47:44

feels very exciting. And

47:47

also sometimes scary, but. There.

47:55

Has been ago for this is like

47:57

a time or learn something sweet. In

48:00

our community you can find hello much

48:02

on Instagram at Solomont, her Mother, the

48:04

and that box.we are also it and

48:07

scram in the Gender facts are facts

48:09

com where with that transcripts of every

48:11

episode and you can also join us

48:13

as history on.com/gender were as a thanks

48:15

for supporting the So you will find

48:18

you up for our bonus podcast and

48:20

conceal a weekly behind the scenes me.

48:23

This episode was produced and edited by as he

48:25

was a good men and buy me a sec

48:27

west side i let out by Iran and line.

48:30

For theme song if a pregnant or

48:32

cylinder additional music by our friends at.

48:35

Will be back next week. More feeling.

48:37

About. The

48:55

I also. People

49:02

love to know as they

49:04

were really do and it's

49:06

some who assisted by us

49:08

feel like for you specifically

49:11

somehow and attract people not

49:13

asking and then me just.

49:15

Every person who does that

49:18

becomes my enemy. Personally Required

49:20

reading lists.