0:00

Just. A quick note before we start

0:02

the shower: This episode is structurally similar,

0:04

but tonally extremely different than what we

0:06

usually put out into the world. If

0:08

you are brand new to gender reveal,

0:10

I really, really encourage you to start

0:12

with the different episode like. Pretty.

0:14

Much any other episode we have list of

0:17

recommendations that Jenner podcast are com such starter

0:19

packs or you can just back up a

0:21

couple weeks to like Shane or Lucy or

0:23

cautious or whatever jumps out ago. Okay,

0:25

here's the show. Welcome

0:42

to Gender Reveal a podcast where we

0:44

hopefully get a little bit closer to

0:46

understanding. What The hell? Gender is

0:48

I'm your host and Rest

0:50

and Gender Detective Tuck Woodstock.

1:01

Heavy. When. Help. Ya hanging in

1:03

there? This. Week and is my. Honor to share

1:05

my conversation with Full of Francis which is

1:07

or credit on December fourth of last year.

1:10

You. Might be familiar with full as illegal

1:12

or space fashion designer, model and actress

1:14

or as one of the most visible

1:16

and publicly out trans women in all

1:18

of Nigeria. I. Have been

1:20

trying for a month or figure out how to

1:23

stay the next sentence in a normal way and

1:25

ultimately there is no good way to see this.

1:27

That. Shortly after interview follow isn't

1:30

a tragic is shocking accident in

1:32

which she drowned at a beach

1:34

and Lagos. And. Before

1:36

we go any further, I just want to really

1:39

emphasize follow very much wanted to live. She was

1:41

planning to live a long and joyous life and

1:43

I would very much like you to live long

1:45

a joyous life. So if you are struggling. With

1:48

he know the looming. Specter

1:50

Of Death that Hunter saw. The sheer amount of loss

1:52

and suffering we've all been hearing about every day for

1:54

the last several months and beyond. I.

1:57

See you. Get. At. And

1:59

I want to encourage the reach out to people in your

2:01

life because the most important thing we can do right

2:03

now israeli to support each other. Regarding.

2:06

Today's episode, we are clearly still releasing the

2:08

interview. It's not really important to me that

2:10

as many people as possible that to learn

2:12

about for last and specifically learn about her

2:14

In her own words, So. In

2:17

this episode Full A talks about the stay

2:19

of chance rates in Nigeria both now and

2:21

historically. Just The tells us about during some

2:23

of the first balls and Legos, creating her

2:25

own queer fashion line and walking in like

2:28

this fashion week despite the Loki blacklisted for

2:30

being trans which is obviously a conical hard

2:32

to pull that off. When we first scheduled

2:34

this interview we spoke with full about ways

2:37

that she could record her side of the

2:39

conversations. We have better audio. When it came

2:41

time to record those methods weren't available. so

2:43

the audio we have her. This interview is

2:46

Zoom Audio. That was beamed halfway around

2:48

the world. Because of this and because

2:50

full, I have a habit of talking

2:52

very fast which obviously I deeply really

2:54

to This audio can be difficult to

2:56

parse at times if you are someone

2:58

who is struggling with it. The good

3:00

news is that we have a full

3:02

transcript available for you at Gender podcast.com/listen

3:04

We will also linked to a Innocence.

3:07

By. The way I'd had all the ads out

3:09

of this episode because they felt totally inappropriate. But

3:11

I do wanna let you know really quickly we

3:13

have a bunch of really find limited edition try

3:16

and the of having in a snack March in

3:18

the shop for this month only. That helps us

3:20

raise money for a mutual aid fund. You can

3:22

find that as always at better ally such junk

3:25

March. And. Now. It's.

3:27

Time for this week and gender. This.

3:36

Week. We just wanna take this opportunity

3:38

to share a couple of brief tributes

3:40

to follow me by her friends. The.

3:43

first clip is a tick tock that was

3:45

that together by the journalists since desmond it

3:47

features the voices of several lgbtq nigerians he

3:49

knew fuller we will post a link in

3:52

the show notes to the video i recommend

3:54

you watch it because the video part of

3:56

the video is great and also their subtitles

3:59

see need them In the

4:01

meantime, here's the idea. Fala

4:03

inspired me the most in the way that she

4:05

lived her life. She lived so

4:07

authentically, visibly and loudly. Saying how

4:10

I lived the way she did

4:13

just exists. That's the

4:15

fact that trans people

4:18

have it bad in Nigeria. It's

4:20

made me want to live freely

4:23

too, and I did, and I do. The first

4:25

thing I reached out to when I wanted to

4:27

start transitioning, like medically transitioning, was

4:29

Fala, and she was the only

4:31

person to actually be transitioning. She

4:33

was always there for trans and

4:35

unvinary people in Nigeria, and she

4:37

had those activities where she made

4:39

sure that trans and

4:42

unvinary people found safety, had

4:44

a sense of family.

4:46

It was always a great thing to

4:49

have a counter reference all the time,

4:51

and have someone whose life could be

4:53

referred to. What do you think about

4:55

living openly and proudly as oneself? Fala

4:58

was mother. Fala is

5:01

mother. Fala invited me to my

5:03

first book, and to

5:05

think Fala did doing what she was doing,

5:07

I didn't even know Fala had that in

5:09

her, you know, to host the book, and

5:11

the way that she did, as if she was born to it.

5:14

I don't know how to say this, but like her

5:16

being here, is literally the

5:18

only thing I'm asking for. This

5:29

second clip is by a friend of the

5:32

show, Ok Timmolaian. Timmy gave us his

5:34

blessing to release this interview with Fala in the first place, which

5:36

was really important for us to actually talk

5:38

to one of Fala's friends and community members

5:40

and make sure it was ok that this

5:42

existed in the world. Timmy

5:44

also was generous enough to send us these

5:47

words for Fala. My

5:50

dear Fala Francis, it's

5:53

been months since I departed. I

5:57

know life hasn't been the same, now it's

5:59

same. been a lot

6:03

but all because you know here and

6:06

it has to move on without you let

6:09

us hope you are in a good space rest

6:12

in being that girl that you are

6:14

you would always be

6:16

love this

6:28

is Ben this week in

6:30

gender okay

6:37

I'm gonna be honest I hate to do a tense which I'm

6:39

just gonna read this like full of write it for us fulla

6:49

Francis is an openly trans woman living

6:51

in Nigeria she came into

6:53

the Legos fashion scene in 2015 where

6:55

she started her activism through fashion she's

6:57

also a fashion designer content creator and

7:00

actor she's the first trans woman

7:02

to walk the runway at the Legos fashion week

7:14

the way we always start the show is

7:16

by asking in terms of gender how do

7:19

you describe yourself I

7:21

am a society trans woman my son us a

7:23

she had a day game perfect

7:26

I was wondering what messages

7:29

about gender and gender

7:31

roles you grew up with

7:33

like what did the culture around you sort of

7:35

tell you about the opportunities of gender that you

7:38

had or didn't have I grew

7:40

up in Nigeria and Nigeria is very patriarchal

7:43

I mean everyone in the world is very

7:45

patriarchal like especially manger our

7:47

culture is very emotional man

7:50

at the age of the family man

7:52

after the most successful man to fix

7:54

everything you know men men men thought

7:56

about men and women are always like

7:58

the country so I'm That is kind of like

8:01

what I grew up around. And you

8:03

know, like, why is the father

8:05

at the end of his family when the

8:08

mother is essentially the one that basically makes

8:10

everything work? This is where I grew up

8:12

around, yeah. Yeah. Do

8:14

you remember the first time that you heard about

8:18

trans people or even met a

8:20

trans person? Oh my God, this

8:22

is, I've never been asked this person for this, this

8:24

is very good. The first time I

8:26

ever heard of a trans person,

8:28

I think was in university, which

8:30

is insane. And

8:33

this was like, I think about 10 years ago, I

8:36

was watching a pageant show

8:38

online and I think a trans person

8:40

was part of the contest and it

8:42

was such a big deal. Like it cost like

8:44

such a big controversy at the time. And

8:47

it was that moment I knew, okay, I

8:50

finally have like a word to describe

8:52

who I am. Even though I didn't

8:54

even start like transitioning at the time, but at that time

8:56

I just knew that. I did

8:58

not identify as the gender I was assigned at work.

9:01

Yeah. When you were coming out,

9:04

did you have other trans

9:06

people in your life that could like support you and

9:08

help you in that? Or were you sort of trying

9:10

to figure that out on your own? I

9:13

had absolutely no trans friends, no

9:15

trans person, no trans person, even

9:17

in this country, like look

9:19

up to or even draw any inspiration from.

9:22

Looking at trans people in

9:24

other countries with a huge

9:26

role in my transition, I

9:29

just felt like, yeah, they kind of like were

9:31

the people I was looking up to. But as far

9:33

as like, yeah, in Nigeria or

9:35

in Africa, I had no one, no

9:38

one even on the media, I would say,

9:40

not talk of like anyone actually, no personality.

9:43

It's also the reason why I became like really,

9:45

very, very visible just so I become like the

9:47

point of contact with trans people in Nigeria. Yeah.

9:51

Yeah, we get a lot of questions from

9:53

people all over who are like, I'm

9:55

trans, but I don't know how to build trans

9:58

community in the place. where I live, like

10:00

I don't know how to find other trans people. So

10:03

is that, I know that

10:05

you posted a lot of TikToks about your

10:07

life. Is that the main way that you met

10:09

other trans people and made that community? Oh,

10:12

absolutely. Absolutely. Well, after I started

10:14

becoming very visible and I posted

10:16

my TikToks, so many trans people

10:18

say original to me on various social media

10:20

platforms, or even through mutual friends,

10:22

like, oh, you know, my trans person, I

10:24

just started my journey because I don't know

10:27

what to do about this, you know, our

10:29

social agenda after me here. So

10:31

I was basically like, you know, tossed into

10:33

like activism and I felt like I was helping other

10:35

trans people, like, you know, basically just

10:37

helping each other out. And now we have like

10:39

a huge community now that we, you know, we

10:41

draw inspiration from each other and we are very,

10:43

very visible because like my, my,

10:45

also my ultimate is that I don't want trans

10:47

people to live in the shadow. Like it's hard to be able to

10:50

live in the shadow, but if you want to be visible, you

10:52

have the right to be visible and to stop asking much of it

10:54

as you want. Right. So

10:57

you organized these events now under the

10:59

name Dolls activities. Yeah. And

11:01

something I love that you've talked about is like

11:03

not wanting them to feel like charity events,

11:06

which I think is so important.

11:08

Exactly. So can you talk more

11:10

about how you make sure it doesn't feel like charity? I

11:12

mean, there's nothing wrong with LPC for and everything, but like,

11:14

it's like, we already are aware of our solution and we

11:16

know that we are basically at the bottom of the chain

11:19

of society. So we don't want

11:21

to get reminded of that at any

11:23

transfer course event or any kind

11:25

of forum or activity was forever.

11:28

So the first event I did

11:30

for Dolls activities was actually a

11:32

girl dinner. I call it a girl dinner. So

11:36

I just like a little dinner at my

11:38

place. I invited like a bunch of like trans

11:40

and non-binary people and we just like, you know,

11:42

add drinks and add the spaghetti and

11:45

pasta. And it was really cute. And

11:48

I thought I was like, okay, I love

11:50

like, like, making money more like us here.

11:52

And I respect like people, my friends, our

11:54

lives, I like to support and

11:57

I'm doing this clothing and

11:59

all that. that transferred to Miami. And

12:02

I partner with another queer

12:04

organization in Nigeria that could

12:06

light up and support and

12:08

bring the event to life. So we

12:11

put our act together and decided to

12:13

like make it not look like a charity.

12:15

In a sense that we know it's gonna

12:17

be a close drive and a food drive,

12:19

but we're gonna make it look like, okay,

12:22

you can shop from different stations for food

12:24

and clothing and just like, you know, have

12:26

fun. So it was just like, everyone

12:29

coming together and having fun.

12:31

So it was not even a thing of less

12:33

privileged trans people or to get trans people,

12:36

like different kind of trans people where they're

12:38

like different from different social

12:40

economy. And everyone felt free to like, you know, pick

12:43

a clothing or two because we make sure and

12:45

everything that we do make sure we are able

12:47

to create them and went through them and make

12:49

sure they wear good shape

12:52

and color and condition. Yeah, I love

12:54

that idea of reframing it as,

12:57

oh, we're shopping. You're like putting

12:59

it in our bag. I would literally put

13:01

a bag back, thanks for shopping though. I

13:04

love that. You also

13:07

organized balls. And

13:10

I love seeing, I saw some videos

13:12

and some photos. It looks so fun.

13:14

Had you been to balls before you

13:16

started organizing them? Oh, yes, I

13:18

asked. Initially, like prior to like

13:20

2018, I did not even know they

13:22

were both Manchurias, you know, or they were like very

13:25

underground balls. And I found that there

13:27

were so many balls today. They were

13:29

extremely underground. They were really

13:31

amazing. And then it was at the time I

13:33

saw Paris is burning and I'm like, wow, I

13:36

cannot believe I actually got experiences in Nigeria. And

13:38

it just got me like thinking like, oh, I

13:40

would love to like do this before I invite

13:42

more people because the ones I attended were like

13:44

very super people in my attendance. I

13:47

wanted like more people to experience what I

13:49

experienced. And so I partnered

13:51

with someone. So this was 2002.

13:55

That was the first of all I organized.

13:58

Some great pride month. We're called pride in the community. And

14:01

we did it again and everyone loved it

14:03

and attended and they were like, oh

14:05

my god, let's do another one soon. And the plan

14:07

initially was to only do inside

14:09

one for last year. Halloween, we did another

14:11

one again and people attended and people really

14:13

loved it. And

14:16

so it just became bigger and bigger

14:18

than this year. I hosted two balls

14:20

and one for pride in

14:22

Lagos and another one called 40 Years on the

14:25

Ball, which was like really big, really special. It

14:27

was almost like very

14:29

mainstream. We invited different

14:32

queer people from different walks of life

14:34

and we told them this is going

14:36

to be expensive just for everyone's use

14:38

space. And we made sure they were

14:40

changing rooms are really good for people that don't

14:42

want to wear their costume or their outfit from

14:45

their houses so they don't get harassed by police

14:47

or anyone that can come to the

14:49

venue and change their outfit and walk any

14:51

category they would like to walk in. We

14:54

just made sure it's a place where

14:56

everyone felt welcome and it was for

14:58

the agenda identity to

15:00

show additional expression and we were able to achieve

15:02

that. It was really beautiful and we're going to

15:04

do another one next year. You

15:07

alluded to the safety and not

15:09

getting arrested. Can you talk

15:12

through the different

15:14

anti-LGBTQ laws in Nigeria

15:16

that might get in

15:19

the way of this queer organizing that you're

15:21

doing? Absolutely. So

15:23

the law that criminalizes queer people

15:25

here in Nigeria is called the

15:27

Same Sex Microvision Act. It

15:30

existed since 2014 and basically there

15:32

are different sectors of the law

15:34

that criminalizes queer people but there

15:36

are not specific fields or laws

15:38

that criminalizes trans people. But

15:41

what the authorities do is that they

15:43

weaponize this law through against trans people

15:45

and gender nonconforming

15:47

people because they don't recognize that

15:49

there are other agendas other than

15:52

male-female. So that's the problem. What

16:01

about low? Now I'll be repealed. Like

16:04

you we couldn't have quit graduates before

16:06

Dallas like against the law would that

16:09

such magnitude now for like because like

16:11

a splash of the like attracts like

16:13

online said official from. Not be

16:16

some states individuals. So.

16:18

We just make sure we. Try

16:20

as much as it's and flew in

16:22

from other credible of the effects of

16:24

i got refused to were defined as

16:26

having an official data collection of defend

16:28

himself and like know the law and

16:30

like know that be got on last

16:32

weekend if he were so yeah. When.

16:35

You're talking to other people. About.

16:39

Coming. Out potentially I in

16:41

Aj I do you has.

16:44

Advice for them as I'll how

16:46

to see season in those situations

16:49

about like how public to the.

16:52

Also other and course you wouldn't do that where I

16:54

want to do that. You can look up to be

16:56

friends or if russia from temple. Hydrogen.

16:58

Powered was authored a similar. bathrooms are

17:00

baber different you know I'm It's easier

17:02

for a transfer from year. To.

17:05

Find themselves like you know, got you

17:07

got transition them indicate a wish from

17:09

the a hobby because the most. Issue

17:11

years. That way a trafficking is likely to

17:13

find is that I would definitely a know.

17:16

Sometimes your family, some people get on, your

17:18

neighbors are like the game for you know

17:20

Delete. Rak, another sect extreme. A

17:22

villager method. Or. Even like

17:24

to mature them out of your houses and I

17:26

we have because he doesn't. So many cases of.

17:29

Owners. Know for the conflict or began and jack

17:31

the my advice to trust by the way in. Which.

17:33

Has offered. May show eat be right.

17:36

With. Fisher, I know, That from Tommy Hilfiger. but I

17:38

like I come out. But. Like well you're

17:41

ready for com out You know anyone visibility

17:43

than up from. The Alpha Alpha

17:45

Dog out yourself in all your you've

17:47

got exemption for your chances. They. Don't.

17:50

Feel bad you all. And. You

17:52

want disability cause significant that is on cause you

17:54

know So i mean i don't see my was

17:56

share of like. Just. Will be and

17:58

I just like extreme course. A backlash

18:01

for my disability. I would advise

18:03

anyone. Into this that the really

18:05

wants to. I

18:07

will you add the first. Openly tenth

18:09

person to walk in Lagos fashioned way

18:11

game as Slayer and I have heard

18:14

that story. but can you tell a

18:16

story to our listeners? Yeah

18:18

of last year initially was just as a

18:20

joke I say that was it wants you

18:22

to have a hurry both about like I'm

18:24

I'm appalled at the gym with Zelda see

18:26

that would be a runway model and avoids

18:29

I'll actually got a shot at the long

18:31

sudden just like one of the privacy. Or

18:33

whatnot. Then. Last year I think

18:36

I presidency for called walking about like thought

18:38

we must get off said what's the what

18:40

the runway public especially women who said oh

18:42

go for it i think issue of i

18:44

think it is it's been great and then

18:46

my friend for my friends that. Awful.

18:49

Idea is you wanna do this in a really good

18:51

just like walked by we I did. You put your

18:53

mind that book on anything. We can actually

18:55

be canal, but you know what? pasture? And.

18:57

Bad A A.on was much. Advisory

19:00

give usually during October. And.

19:03

Then must select which is either to

19:05

regulate the look of and over gonna

19:07

get invited by little question that eleven

19:09

happened. He wouldn't have a classical out

19:11

never get it because. I'm. A chance

19:13

that I was television got lucky and

19:15

designers individually block average and should read.

19:18

And. The ones that in know either those the

19:20

official be get out what i love comic of

19:22

it or my posts. And. Advocates

19:24

was recovered you about September

19:27

I got little know. That

19:29

one is that your family. Or

19:31

friends and said okay. Have you worked

19:33

for me or my show up so bad

19:35

and ugly? Like I said, I went to.

19:37

"The be seen and feel a great elder

19:40

against I", said I found out with my

19:42

bike, "Yeah, what the Pacific, whatever get food

19:44

I wish for" Do. So got

19:47

cancelled and I'm like What?

19:49

I do some crazy that and a few

19:51

days before the league office area as well

19:53

and have been done a little. he said

19:55

it outside the next year. Then I

19:57

went to the negotiating. A sudden chp.

20:00

I'd like to shop for their. And I'm

20:02

acknowledge of which which are forgot the. Circuit.

20:04

Design Alice at the end of are not the

20:06

I am familiar with. Like it. Would.

20:09

Make. Me work was inserted official. What

20:11

about? The I went on the

20:13

Cato. Look at all the divine as an iso to define

20:15

as on that you know. Is that

20:17

I'm I'm yeah, I'm from Yeah yeah, Florida.

20:20

With that, it's a very good amateur live

20:22

there were broken up with Monica of yeah.

20:24

Those. Are for both of them and with the

20:27

lack of our, the Bush reply that's a lot

20:29

of me and I'm like, "Wow, okay and difficult

20:31

are high up" The whenever agrees everybody

20:33

will add new the old you know you mean by

20:35

that will had little hotter I shall become like my

20:37

wasn't. Invited know I.

20:40

Was very fucking sad and I was

20:42

Richard I've got. I've never been busted.

20:44

I was sure I would get so

20:46

much side. I feel like you know,

20:49

Just the other night as the do like why does

20:51

this year I do was just so many people would

20:53

have you know what we can be there. By by

20:55

Yeah yeah, give up either dollars in

20:57

that area. And yeah,

21:00

And you and Hannah a background in fashion

21:02

the for this and before you came out.

21:04

So then when you came out

21:06

his hands I. Did.

21:09

I changed the way

21:11

that you approached. Ah,

21:13

the fashion industry in a way. That it treated

21:15

Jill I'm i assume a change the

21:17

way to to jail. Awful. actually exaggerated.

21:20

You that needs and the way I approach.

21:22

Fashion industry. I mean look what

21:24

I what I wasn't part of the reason why like

21:26

I kinda like as. From. Relationship with like

21:28

about the bad as well. I think that was

21:30

in the fashion industry and whatnot. But. When

21:33

I side with Conrad very vocal about my

21:35

age and guiding the are transmit. Old a

21:37

game like cricket like a rookie

21:39

because of comedy if that's rich

21:42

Now though, our visitors or that.

21:44

Employed by of a theocracy by I was

21:46

black he set of was the early from

21:48

a lack of this late. As

21:50

what it. Was

21:54

like I. phone call is a we were both of

21:56

them will be anathema yeah i don't think you guys

21:59

best buy And yeah,

22:01

and also at some point, this

22:03

time, some of them, not everyone, like some of the people

22:05

that work in fashion, for like, gravity team, want to work

22:07

me, this industry, Nigeria

22:10

is very superstitious. It's very

22:12

elusive. So I would say

22:14

like, when I say like, got me like,

22:16

more like, international recognition for my work, have to

22:18

be to myself, a lot of people wanted to

22:20

feel cool, I guess, if I try to get after

22:22

data, to be after data with me. So they

22:25

find like, inviting me for talk, and like, not including

22:27

your time in self, but I just make

22:29

sure like, I pick and choose the

22:31

kind of stuff I go for and make

22:33

sure like, I discern the kind

22:35

of people I am around in the

22:37

fashion industry, because like, so many people are not

22:39

doing it for the right reasons, you know. So

22:43

I took a major step back even though I came

22:45

out, I get like, lots of invitation

22:47

for self, but just make sure I don't go

22:49

for everything because if it doesn't like, go with

22:52

what I believe in, I shouldn't

22:54

be there. Also, if it's going to be talked

22:56

for me, I shouldn't be there. And so many

22:58

of these people are also like, very about

23:00

like, using like, trans and non-binary to do the

23:02

stuff that I used to do the media stuff.

23:04

So it's just, yeah. I

23:07

was reading that during

23:10

the NSARS protests, you were making

23:13

clothing like, for those protests, I was

23:15

wondering what the relationship

23:17

is for you between like,

23:19

your fashion and activism. Yes.

23:23

So my clothing line is

23:25

very accurate and he shared

23:27

what the he shared. During

23:30

the NSARS protests, I just

23:32

like sort of like, what can, what can I,

23:34

you know, support, just like, lend

23:36

a little end. And I was like, okay, you know what, let's bring

23:39

shares that says, Quail Lives Matter. And

23:41

because if I don't mind, Matthew, they're

23:44

not better, especially they had trans and

23:46

twilight matter and like, you know, got me at

23:48

the protest run by these other people. So like,

23:50

oh, we tried to try to shun them. I'm

23:52

like, you know, from that. So I decided to

23:55

bring the shares that said

23:57

Quail Lives Matter and gave it to them and I

23:59

couple of. That would get back to

24:01

where the following day. And then pass

24:03

out came along and my brothers who

24:05

a very i mean it's by a

24:07

corporation for very very queer as shit

24:09

that. They. Ask me about it

24:11

for now, which as the everywhere one about

24:14

bestselling shirts. And. You

24:16

know, I haven't russia back before within.

24:18

the something to suspend was got. The.

24:20

I s e m on

24:23

for my wagon. Very very

24:25

mysterious for everyone was for

24:27

Enron before your. Vision

24:30

for Gender Nonconforming is what everyone?

24:33

What? Is very much. I'm

24:35

aware of what. Do. You

24:38

have. Plans. for

24:40

future. Projects. That

24:42

I we sat there might be another fashion

24:44

line you're working on or something else that

24:46

we saw you tags as just wondering what

24:49

you have next in the fashion pipeline. Oh

24:51

yes yes yes of I'm currently working on

24:53

a new clothing line with me. Very. Average

24:56

on Francisco. Bay but he some kind

24:58

of a month that. I'm actually taking

25:00

back the clock right now, so I. Can also

25:02

lead to learn basic technique myself so

25:04

I cannot. The let's look at this

25:06

as a lot of you know what

25:09

I'm talking about. so what does that

25:11

grade or and and also daughter biggest

25:13

too much in the work we're currently

25:15

like looking for like Mcdonalds for Translate

25:17

Walk On I'm going to save our

25:19

thought That became a lot of. Drunk

25:22

people that you know of accommodation. Were.

25:24

Also like agree on event coming up.

25:27

Or. Much for thrive your disability.

25:29

But we have so much new plan and looking

25:32

on Dad and. The. That close or

25:34

whatever on admit. You've.

25:36

Also I saw done some some

25:38

acting recently. How did you to

25:41

into acting? Didn't

25:43

know for. Because I'm

25:46

frankly like him. because at.

25:48

My. Front us lawn about he thought well

25:50

as I can reclaim. As you said, I got

25:52

like I think you're. Good at offbeat. I've used

25:55

his little wanted to gather at for the rest

25:57

of them allowed me to the i Love You

25:59

select yeah. I asked him to be one of my friends

26:02

and she was like, okay, I'll let you know

26:04

if I ever asked a road artist. You're not

26:06

like supposed to know problems. And then

26:08

like, she just like sent me a speech and

26:10

said, okay, I think

26:12

I found a road artist with you. And I'm

26:14

like, okay, no problem. And it was a short film and

26:17

we shot it within a day and

26:20

there were just such good directors that

26:22

I just felt really comfortable. And I,

26:25

this is actually one of the

26:27

film's festival like recently. And it's

26:29

just amazing that the first film I did is one of something.

26:32

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Are

26:34

you playing trans roles

26:36

or just roles for women generally

26:39

when you're acting? So now

26:41

I've played two different roles now and they

26:43

are both trans roles. But

26:46

I'm definitely open to like, you know, playing

26:48

a women role, non binary

26:51

role. Definitely open

26:53

to that. But I think as

26:55

a trans person, I'm very used to

26:57

acting. So

26:59

it's very much my safe comfort. Yeah,

27:06

definitely. Well,

27:08

I have a silly question for you. I

27:10

saw on Twitter that you were into and

27:12

just like that. So speaking of

27:15

film, which section of

27:17

the city character would you be? Do

27:19

you think? Oh, I've

27:22

never felt a role. I would say I would

27:25

be Harry Bradshaw. Yeah,

27:30

the main character of course. The

27:32

main character. But

27:37

now, I think I'll be, some of

27:39

the brown woman. She's

27:41

just very fabulous. I love her. Yeah,

27:44

yeah, totally. I

27:46

read somewhere you have a degree in,

27:48

is it international relations? Is that right?

27:51

Yes, I drew. I was

27:53

gonna say, is that a field,

27:55

if you weren't busy doing all

27:57

of this fashion and modeling and

27:59

all. and acting and all of these

28:01

creative things. Is that something that you're still

28:04

interested in or what made you pursue that?

28:06

Absolutely, I'm super much interested in

28:08

it. I would love to try

28:11

applying for different roles in

28:14

this field, but unfortunately your work comes down

28:16

to like, I had a trans session and

28:18

it was like, I do not experience this

28:20

field even though I've had like a few for

28:22

a long time. But of course I've not been

28:24

trying to be able to work and like, get

28:27

any form of experience in international relations to not

28:29

be able to use it but I definitely will

28:31

be open to work with, or use my degree

28:33

because having a stable income is something

28:35

that I very much need for, you

28:38

know. It is what it is. Yeah.

28:40

Yeah. What's it like in

28:42

Nigeria trying to access gender

28:44

affirming healthcare and legal transition?

28:47

Initially when I started transitioning, when I started

28:49

my journey, I had to like, get

28:52

my gender-affirming care shifting from

28:54

the U.S. Actually I had friends that

28:56

would help me decide and like get their

28:58

ear. I still

29:01

do. But like now, we've been able to

29:03

like, you know, look for ways

29:05

that we can like, use like, bridge the

29:08

gap because getting them shifting

29:10

from the U.S. is very

29:12

expensive to access just in what it's meant to

29:15

shipping and everything. So what we do now is

29:17

just like, to share knowledge and ensure that like,

29:19

we are doctors that are also queer that, you

29:21

know, that's what's been saying and

29:23

medications to us and it don't work

29:26

as quickly as it was, I would probably

29:28

be forced from the U.S. or

29:30

other countries for, you know, to join me

29:32

and we, yeah, it makes it work. Is

29:35

there a way to

29:37

change your gender legally

29:39

in Nigeria? Not at all.

29:42

Right. At all. Okay. Yeah.

29:44

So how, how often does that like

29:46

affect your life and your ability

29:48

to just sort of like, move through the world

29:50

safely? It's affected me

29:52

immensely, not being able

29:54

to travel at all, you know,

29:57

and due to this and even

29:59

just. like traveling in the country

30:01

and taking flight, it's insane. Just

30:06

because, not talk about travel internationally. Because

30:11

the same issue I go to is the same issue like

30:14

so many times if I know also go

30:16

through. Because it's very hard even trying

30:18

to change something as we do ask

30:20

like your agenda on your passport and talk

30:22

of your name. Especially if you

30:24

have already gotten a passport before you

30:26

charge your phone. So it's extremely

30:28

hard. And it's something I'm also going to personally.

30:31

It's not something that I feel like you know what, this

30:34

old thing is just so, maybe I'm just like, I'm

30:36

just going to sit down. Or I'm going to say

30:38

I'm possible ready to take whatever

30:40

trauma that comes traveling out

30:43

of the country. Then I'll do

30:45

it. So yeah. Well,

30:49

I think we touched on this a little bit.

30:51

Do you have advice for people living in parts

30:53

of the US or

30:57

other countries where being

30:59

trans is being more and more criminalized?

31:01

Do you have any advice as someone

31:03

who has had to live through all

31:06

of these laws against queer

31:08

and trans people in Nigeria? Yeah, like

31:10

I said before, just make

31:12

sure you in

31:16

a safe environment just try. Because it's

31:18

very difficult because I don't even know

31:20

what's safe environment even at this point.

31:22

Nowhere to choose this year because you basically

31:24

have to have a certain level of privilege

31:26

to be able to afford a level

31:29

of safety because everything is

31:31

very monitoring because nothing works. I

31:34

believe nothing works here. But what I'll just say

31:36

is that just reach out to

31:38

people that you think have contributed from journey that

31:41

you're currently going through. And ask them

31:43

to advise, ask them to briefly. It can't

31:45

be deep. Our day

31:47

we're able to get help. Don't

31:50

be shy. Don't

31:52

feel uncomfortable. We talk of many channels, queer

31:55

people as you can. You also have a

31:57

lot of queer organizations either in

31:59

Europe, trans people. We have a chance to

32:01

make sure that those activities are really good with

32:03

time to redirect trans people

32:05

to other organizations that

32:07

focus more on these

32:09

kind of issues that anyone is facing aside

32:12

like mental health, preparing housing. There are

32:14

so many organizations here that are to create people.

32:18

Just notice that you do not owe

32:20

anyone disability. And also

32:22

another thing is that trans

32:25

people go through and gender

32:27

dysphoria a lot. The

32:29

math is one of our biggest issues. Just

32:32

know that you are valid in your

32:34

gender identity irrespective of your

32:36

expression. You don't owe anyone masculinity or

32:38

femininity. You can just keep it deep.

32:42

And don't ask to get on gender-affinity

32:44

as you're valid at the trans person.

32:46

Because not everyone has access to a

32:49

disability perspective. It is a religious and

32:51

LKSH. That's

32:54

just my major advice. Just

32:58

work on your own time. A

33:02

lot of times when I'm talking to cis people

33:04

here in the US, they'll ask

33:06

me if I think things

33:09

are getting better or worse for trans people

33:11

here. And I think

33:15

it's both at the same time. I

33:17

think in some ways it's getting a lot worse. And in

33:20

other ways it's getting better. Is that how

33:22

you feel? What is it like in Nigeria?

33:25

Absolutely. By the time I trans

33:27

people, there were no trans people

33:29

that reached out. I knew.

33:32

But after I became more visible, I realised there

33:34

were too many trans people. But they

33:36

were just there. They were not visible. They were

33:38

living their life in cis people. They didn't want

33:40

any problems for themselves.

33:42

But after they became very, very visible, I

33:44

would say, I think, a lot of

33:47

trans people also became very visible. And

33:49

this disability is still much too uncut. So

33:53

many more harassment, so many more

33:55

transphobia, a lot of things. So

33:57

the good I would say is that there's

33:59

so much. I can name like, some

34:02

of my ed, I can name about 10 trans people

34:04

that I know. I did not know

34:06

that before, I did not know any trans people before, but personally,

34:08

I see I do not know if it's 15 trans people, if

34:10

it's not. So that is the

34:12

good. But the bad is that with

34:14

this disability, it comes more issues, but

34:16

that issue about like, a

34:18

trans person was like, they went out to meet

34:20

someone and do it. It turns out that the

34:22

person was trans, like, ambushed them and the person

34:25

was trans, like, recording the case. All these things,

34:27

same cases. You know, in one case, it's about

34:29

like, social media harassment. I mean, in

34:31

my own case, my video went viral online

34:33

and like, my neighborhood, and like, we're threatening

34:35

and giving them dead sex. So

34:38

these are the bad things that are occurring.

34:40

But honestly, the bad, I'm

34:42

not actually serving trans people and queer people

34:44

in general. We are just pushing back against

34:46

the law and like against whatever.

34:49

And honestly, it's beautiful to see like, everyone is

34:51

like, observing the consequences of these are just like,

34:53

trans people that I understand

34:55

the fact that it's here. Yeah,

34:58

I just thinking about

35:01

the homophobia and transphobia in

35:04

Nigeria, I know that a lot of it

35:06

comes from religion. And

35:09

I read this this writer's

35:11

article once that said Nigeria

35:13

is a deeply religious country

35:15

where many reject homosexuality as

35:17

a corrupting Western import. But

35:19

I was just like, is it Christianity

35:21

also a Western import? Thank

35:24

you. I

35:27

guess I was just wondering, like, how

35:29

recent is this like level of homophobia

35:31

and transphobia? Like, was there a time

35:33

if we go far back enough that

35:35

like, this wasn't happening? So

35:38

first of all, first of all, Korean

35:40

has always been very African, like, the

35:43

biggest problem as Africans is like, the

35:45

Aji archive. That's our biggest issue.

35:47

Like, there are literally very

35:49

few trans people being archive.

35:52

But there are people that existed

35:54

like, like, like, you know, they

35:56

were African, they were prominent

36:00

is the royal houses

36:02

that they would perform. They were gender non-conforming,

36:05

they would perform for the royal people, for

36:07

the king, and everyone loved them. There have

36:09

been cases whereby we were screaming, it's

36:11

whereby they were kings that would take

36:13

gender non-conforming as

36:15

like their concubine. So,

36:18

Quelling has always existed. I would say

36:20

it was after religion came to

36:22

Africa, like brainwashed Africans, and

36:25

we got stuck with that way of life, and now

36:27

it's very very hard for Africans to accept

36:29

that Quelling is existed before Christianity. And

36:31

plus, Africans are just very inappropriate, like any part

36:33

of the world, because I need Christianity. There are

36:36

so many people that are still Quelling, but if

36:38

you think about it, it's rather like, you know,

36:40

the Quelling, you're in your room, you're closer, but

36:42

like don't talk about this, you know. My

36:45

parents told me that, in my dad's work,

36:47

I'm not just gay in peace, and

36:50

I'm like, what does that mean? I'm

36:52

not gay. So yeah, it's the

36:54

same thing with like so many people. We

36:56

have lost politicians here that find the same

36:58

view that are also Quelling, like that's what

37:01

we think that, you know, different

37:03

cases. Yeah, so it's just

37:05

inappropriate. I

37:08

just wanted to ask, I know you've done a

37:10

lot of interviews with people

37:13

who are very well

37:15

intentioned, but I heard like one

37:17

person in an interview ask you

37:19

like, can men be trans? So

37:21

it's like a pretty 101 level

37:24

discussion of transness. Is there

37:26

anything that you

37:29

have wanted to talk about publicly

37:32

about being trans in Nigeria that you feel like

37:34

you haven't, or just being trans in general, that

37:36

you feel like you haven't gotten to talk about

37:39

publicly because of the sort of 101 level?

37:42

Or do you feel like we covered everything? Oh,

37:45

I've been able to talk about everything. I do not hold

37:47

back from my opinions when it comes

37:49

to transness at all. I have

37:51

done so, I've done a lot of like

37:53

panel discussions where I make sure that very,

37:55

very trans, because I look at the

37:58

organizers who are like, oh, I just can't see. I'm

38:00

like exactly thank you. So

38:03

I make sure I amplify voice

38:05

of transit because we get lost

38:07

within the issues, the community

38:09

of faces over here.

38:11

And my old thing is that we

38:14

are here, the trans community, trans

38:16

and non-binary people actually are always at

38:18

the forefront of any queer liberation. So

38:20

our issues should be at the forefront,

38:23

not always the last two. So

38:26

I make sure I talk about everything trans and

38:28

non-binary people. Also, trans

38:31

people have no access

38:33

to LCA period. We can't go through

38:35

regular obstacles because I remember one

38:38

of my trans students, I went to

38:40

apply the obstacles and she was basically put out of the

38:42

clinic because they were like, why are you afraid?

38:46

Imagine being put out just because you're just going

38:48

through a common checkup. I've

38:51

not been to the obstacle to check myself in

38:53

over three years. I'm worried about

38:55

that because I want to make sure I'm in good

38:57

health. I don't want to kind of put myself on

38:59

me. But I'm thinking I'm putting myself

39:01

on because I don't want to get out

39:03

of the clinic for all the obstacles. So

39:06

issues like this, or even issues like as far as

39:08

like how things, I ask my first friends to

39:13

put their names down for my accommodations because

39:15

I can't use my name. So

39:17

yeah, different cases like that. Yeah,

39:20

it's so wild. It even

39:22

happens. I

39:24

lived in a state where there was

39:27

a law that said you couldn't discriminate

39:29

against trans people at the doctor,

39:31

but they don't follow the law. So they'll still do

39:33

the same thing. Well, they'll kick you out for being

39:35

trans and there's still nothing you can do except for

39:37

say, well, that's not the law. And they're like, we

39:39

don't care. You

39:41

don't care. They don't care. They

39:43

still say we're like I was saying as well. There

39:46

are no specific laws that criminalize trans people here. Right.

39:49

Yeah. Yeah. All right.

39:52

Well, the way we always end

39:54

the show is by asking in

39:56

your ideal world, what would the

39:58

future of gender look like? In

40:01

my ideal world, the future of gender

40:03

is going to be so diverse.

40:06

Everyone can just be who

40:08

you are without having to explain who you

40:10

are to anyone. You can just exist and

40:13

just be like, yeah, this is my

40:15

pronoun. Okay, this is my pronoun. Just keep it

40:17

moving. Not any major question

40:19

or any major thing like, oh my God,

40:21

you're so brave. Oh my God, you're just, we are

40:23

just completely people. If

40:26

one more person tells me I'm brave, I'm going to lose

40:28

it. I'm just a

40:30

girl. So

40:33

that's like what my ideal future for

40:35

trans, for the world would look like.

40:38

If you're an heterosexual person,

40:40

just be heterosexual, just be your thing. We'll

40:43

support you if you're, if you're bi,

40:45

good for you. Whatever

40:48

you want to aspire, I just know

40:50

that gender is not binary. Gender is

40:52

diverse. We as humans are diverse. We

40:55

do not think the same way as straights and

40:57

not seeing as to why would you think gender

41:00

of all things will be binary?

41:03

Even though like intersex people exist, you know,

41:05

all these different variations of people.

41:07

So yeah, that would be like

41:10

my ideal future. Just for everyone to live

41:12

their life and see where anyone doesn't have

41:14

to come out to their parents or to anyone. You can

41:16

just think we do. That's

41:24

going to do it for this week's show. You

41:26

can find archives of Fola's life and

41:28

work on TikTok at

41:30

FolaFrancis and on Instagram at FolaFrancis

41:33

and TheFolaFrancis. We

41:35

are at genderpodcast.com where we've got transcripts

41:38

of every episode, including this one. You

41:41

can also go to patreon.com/gender to sign up

41:43

for our bonus podcast and our weekly behind

41:45

the scenes newsletters. This episode

41:47

was produced and edited by Ozzie Luna Skidman and

41:49

by Mimi Chukwudstok. Special

41:51

thanks this week to Timmy, Affie, MJ and

41:53

Liza for helping us navigate how best to go about

41:55

this. Our logo

41:57

is by Ira M. Lye. The

42:00

song is by Breakmaster Cylinder, additional

42:02

music by our friends at Blue Dot Sessions.

42:05

We'll be back next week with more feelings

42:08

about Cylinder. That's been

42:10

Power, Paula Professor.