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not understanding what the hell? Gender

1:01

Adams I'm your host and resident.

1:03

Shudder Detective Tuck Woodstock. Among

1:05

the. Hey.

1:13

Everyone hope you've all been hanging in

1:16

there. There's. The gonna show. I am

1:18

pleased to share our conversation with Lives Farm

1:20

Jones you might know lives from her organizing

1:22

and advocacy work i google or her past

1:25

efforts to get kiwi. Farms taken down,

1:27

Or. Maybe you know her as the creator

1:29

of the Coworker Solidarity Find, which has

1:31

provided support for striking and unionizing workers

1:34

at Netflix, Starbucks, Amazon, and more. In.

1:37

This episode live and as the and I

1:39

talk about the solidarity find and loses years

1:41

at google. We. Also, talk about ways

1:43

that tech people can use their tech person privilege

1:45

to support trans people and whether it's safe to

1:47

plan your organizing efforts and Google docs you should

1:50

use the tools are most effective. You rather than

1:52

hampering your own efforts in order to kind of

1:54

have this purity of know, we're not going to

1:56

use Google or Amazon. Chortling. Once.

1:58

Again, we recorded this than. You want? My radiator was

2:01

yelling at me as healthy hear that in the background.

2:03

Sorry. About that. But. Before we get

2:05

to the I decided to let you

2:07

know we have two great new designs

2:09

and armored shop and honor of Trans

2:11

day of staying in and having they

2:13

snack which of course will be on

2:15

March Thirty first. One design is basically

2:17

a bunch of hot trans people eating

2:19

snacks. The other is a giraffe with

2:21

popsicle. I assume the draft Avast trends

2:23

were not. I also restocked some of

2:25

our Trans and Palestine Solidarity items so

2:27

that's all at the.allies As Gender March

2:29

and proceeds either go to Palestinian Aid

2:31

or our Mutual Aid Find depending on

2:33

which designs you by. If you

2:36

go to them or start, you don't see

2:38

anything in there, are you only see a

2:40

couple of listing. That is because T Spring

2:43

is a terrible website that we absolutely need

2:45

to stop using. In the meantime, for this

2:47

month, try clearing your cookies or using a

2:49

different browser or refreshing the storm tomorrow. I

2:52

don't know, it's so annoying. I'm sorry, but.

2:54

If you wanna give it a shot. That. The

2:56

allies last sentiments. And

2:59

now. It's. Time for this week! Engender.

3:08

How can there be honest? I once

3:11

again using the this week and gender

3:13

segments to really just to sort of

3:15

an extended housekeeping announcement. And why am

3:17

I doing this? Because say it with

3:19

me, all the news is bad, but

3:21

this is fine thought I got the

3:23

sense that. You.

3:26

May have heard me dropping not

3:28

so subtle hints that lasted. Subscribed

3:30

to the Hang Up Podcast. If

3:32

not, does it's kind to the

3:34

Hang Up Pod that to the

3:36

podcast me by my friends the

3:38

Kia and Caitlin. It is a

3:40

queer reality dating so a cast

3:42

and something I really appreciate about

3:44

this show is not only is

3:47

that a queer dating so but

3:49

it also acknowledges the reality of

3:51

clear dating and dating and general

3:53

by which I mean they are

3:55

not trying. To match you up with

3:57

someone who you will then go on to

3:59

marry minutes. The end of the

4:01

end of time they're really just trying

4:03

to find someone who you will ask

4:06

out on a date. Navy is is

4:08

and then what will happen. Who can

4:10

say? And so I'd is really appreciate

4:13

their being safe. For non monogamy, they're

4:15

being space for complicated relationship dynamics of

4:17

various kinds. The way the show works

4:20

is that every season there is one

4:22

star of February. it's not mine and

4:24

the star is matched with a handful

4:27

of contestants and the star goes on

4:29

a series. As phone dates with the

4:31

intestines and after every episode they have to

4:33

quote hang up on one of the contestants

4:35

until they finally narrow it down to one

4:38

person and then there's the big twist that

4:40

I will not while for you even though

4:42

I think it's explained that like. The

4:45

very first episode immediately for whatever you can

4:47

subscribe and find out what the twist. Is.

4:50

Anyway, Season one is out now.

4:52

you can listen to it and I'll

4:55

the height of places he's into will

4:57

be out very soon and I've heard

4:59

a bunch of behind the scenes info

5:01

about that season. It sounds very good.

5:03

Between those two seasons, however, they have

5:05

released one Fossil Bones episode that was

5:07

recorded live in front of an audience

5:09

of other podcasts Errors in Brooklyn a

5:12

few weeks ago and the premise of

5:14

this episode is that it's kind of

5:16

the entire season, but condensed into forty

5:18

minutes. So the way it was recorded.

5:20

Is that there was a star on

5:22

one side of the Korean and then

5:25

for contestants on the other side and

5:27

then the audience can see everyone that

5:29

that and had can't see the sar

5:31

and my first guy and there was

5:33

a time of work going into this

5:35

out to make sure that the ceramic

5:37

interested in seats other even dislike thumping

5:39

around in the hallway before the south.

5:41

I bring this up because. Can.

5:44

You guess who the star

5:46

was? Totally totally totally totally

5:48

totally saw. Ah, maybe you're

5:51

subscribed to hang out if

5:53

you want to hear me

5:55

be an absolute dumb ass

5:57

on a stage in Brooklyn.

6:00

Ah, there is a funny twist at

6:03

the advice I isn't as a real

6:05

fast and I will not spoil our

6:07

something that I is so funny about

6:09

this episode as because there's forty minutes

6:11

for me to make various rounds of

6:13

elimination, there is virtually no time for

6:15

me to learn anything about any one

6:17

like at no point to I know

6:19

like how old these people are, where

6:21

they live i learn that was a

6:23

dancer later and every shocking. ah. There's

6:25

also absolutely no contacts for them to

6:27

learn anything about me literally at all.

6:29

not even a little bit. Which I

6:31

think really affects be a twist

6:33

at the end of it. Anyway,

6:35

I decided to recommend you check

6:38

out the show in general and

6:40

also if you're just dying for

6:42

yeah more it's really really silly.

6:44

Tuck would suck contact. I normally

6:46

review every like podcast that I've

6:48

been on before. I recommend that

6:50

y'all listen to me on another

6:52

so I will listen to that

6:54

so to see if I said

6:57

something very stupid. but here I

6:59

am too confident I absolutely silicon

7:01

a sensibilities. Events and I tried to

7:03

listen to an advance and I just couldn't

7:05

I couldn't do it I could make myth

7:07

of do it but I know with great

7:09

at a great time and that sort of

7:12

behind the scenes I'll tell you is that

7:14

after the so are almost all of us

7:16

hung out for like an hour to to

7:18

sort of process that it was like to

7:20

reject each other on stage. be like by

7:22

the way numbers with Riyadh and models for

7:25

bad your theme. incredibly grail of how follow

7:27

each other on Instagram and I thought that

7:29

was really nice sort of reality. So after

7:31

care and I wish that for all

7:33

people who are in move kind of

7:35

a very specific position. So.

7:38

Let. Me close by saying ah that

7:41

there should be more clear reality

7:43

dating shows and I have enough

7:45

insight and behind the scenes of

7:47

this to say that one of

7:49

the main reasons why there aren't

7:51

more good at queer reality shows

7:53

are Law that one season of

7:56

our he the one that aren't

7:58

we talking about is because. They

8:00

still will mostly only let three

8:02

people queer reality shows into The

8:04

three people are passing out ideas

8:06

of what they think other straight

8:08

people want to see. queer people

8:11

do and we are just never

8:13

going to have like. Exceptional.

8:15

And de lis as. Reality. Show

8:18

content for queer people and less

8:20

it's being made by and for

8:22

queer people as well as about

8:24

where people. It is not going

8:26

to be a good show if

8:28

it is need to be educational

8:30

to he says had audience so

8:32

subscribes hangar listen wherever you get

8:35

your podcasts and in the meantime.

8:37

Here's this episode of Gender. Feel. This.

8:40

Is Ben. This week. Engender.

8:49

We've. Got a they mail message he

8:51

today they males are little messages from

8:54

listeners. There is a link in the

8:56

show up for years to meet your

8:58

own. This access it it's from Renton

9:01

Dove Lark and it says described as

9:03

sounding like quote wrapping Trauma in Sunlight

9:05

Rand of Likes new album Boundary Push

9:07

is a collection of cathartic plunder phonic

9:10

pop songs which rework samples from contemporary

9:12

Christian music creating transcendent, affirming thoughts about

9:14

surviving are present. Dystopia written for fruity

9:16

trans people who cry while dancing alone

9:19

in their bedroom. Available now

9:21

at random large.bang camp.com that is

9:23

ran with the W like the

9:25

bird. And. The does like the bird

9:28

and lark like the bird. Okay,

9:30

when were quick add them look at the interview. Here

9:32

we go. Believe

9:34

it or not, I'm a pretty private person.

9:36

I don't like to share intimate details with

9:39

people, I just may. I certainly don't want

9:41

strangers to be able to look at my

9:43

home address or my family member's name. Is

9:45

there any other personal info? really? And that's

9:48

why I continue to use Delete Me. Delete

9:50

Me routinely scans hundreds of data broker web

9:52

sites to make sure that my personal information

9:54

is not easily available online. Delete Me can

9:57

also scrub info tied to dead names and

9:59

other aliases. You can doing

10:01

today at dwindling me.com/gender Reveal and

10:03

use the code tucked. That

10:08

is twenty. Directly.

10:23

Linked funds and as a developer advocate,

10:25

labor and ethics organizer and site reliability

10:28

and of days he is currently the

10:30

fields as low as Honeycomb and at

10:32

night she was entranced. Justice activists I'm

10:35

an Impact as soon as the Vancouver

10:37

Bc with her wife alley partners and

10:39

it's annoying at Goldman from for mixed

10:41

and in Sydney, New South Wales. The.

10:56

Wally Oil set the show as by asking and

10:58

terms of gender how do you describe yourself. I

11:00

use she her pronounce and I

11:03

am a proud out trends woman.

11:05

So I've been out since two

11:07

thousand and three Witches and that

11:09

turn it he in trans years

11:11

and see I i a binary

11:13

as far as I know you

11:16

know obviously people's evolution is an

11:18

understanding of the gender change over

11:20

time. That as you know consistently

11:22

I am loving that is that

11:24

is who I am. Perfect.

11:27

Yeah, I am. Inches said you

11:29

coming out more than twenty years

11:31

ago? I guys at the remember.

11:34

The. First time that you may other trans

11:36

people like in your realize. Oh

11:39

goodness. So I was born in

11:41

Nineteen Eighty Seven on side you

11:44

can imagine in two thousand and

11:46

three I was sixteen years old

11:48

and know just slightly died. read

11:50

a little bit. About trends the

11:53

ball on mine. this and. I was

11:55

like hey, wait a second like I might

11:57

be trends. I eventually came out to some

11:59

people online. And I do not weep on

12:01

my real life on my biological parents did not

12:03

take it so well. And the interesting

12:05

thing that saved my God, your life. Is I'm

12:07

serious a group of mostly asian

12:09

trans woman or but you know

12:12

we have course had some token

12:14

white representation on spurt we had

12:16

a group that with called the

12:18

joy Luck club and that group

12:20

or asian friends woman to hook

12:22

me and and mentored me when

12:24

I was like seventeen eighteen and

12:26

night sneak away from my biological

12:28

parents to go and and meet

12:30

up with them and rights you

12:32

notice have community to really like

12:34

see like was connected to people

12:36

sales. Moses experienced meeting others

12:38

and people in real life was

12:40

hanging out with this group of

12:43

other isn't rental and and they

12:45

were. In Lightsaber. Unfortunately,

12:47

one of the founding members of that

12:49

group past when the past five years

12:51

or so, but she was a our

12:54

software engineer at Apple on Melody Bless.

12:56

I think that Melody was a phenomenon.

12:58

Shoes She was incredible. Ill. It

13:01

was a bunch of software dick Street primarily

13:03

because we knew how to use the Internet

13:05

back then, right? Like that's that's how we

13:07

met up with each other. So you know

13:09

ice. This is why I and ironically can

13:11

say the Internet saved my life. Yeah, absolutely.

13:14

Well. You know, Internet Job Tech jobs

13:17

Coding jobs is. In a one

13:19

as bad thighs stereotypical trans girl jobs,

13:21

right? Maybe the only one because you

13:23

health insurance. You think that. It's

13:25

up there in the top five because so

13:27

many. Chance you will meet online or

13:30

what do you think contributes to that? Yeah.

13:32

There's certainly a selection bias, right? like

13:34

the set of friends people that make

13:36

it that survive. Tend. To

13:39

be the ones that all birds were

13:41

working. And software a sounder way toward

13:43

software the kinds, right? My tax instance:

13:45

nudity connecting to people about his instance

13:47

i'm no should in the ability to

13:50

or net income to get health insurance

13:52

in Er. Tech companies have some the

13:54

first to offer trans inclusive health care

13:56

coverage. So yeah, I don't think it's

13:58

that you know. I got a trend.

14:01

people are overrepresented and care for. you

14:03

know twenty four good at tax rate

14:05

like it's just this is the industry

14:07

in which you're most likely to survive

14:09

and the as a trans person and

14:11

I would love for a future world

14:13

in which you know you see plenty

14:15

of out there are trans folks who

14:18

portray these are like year plumbers, electricians

14:20

and Syria of and breached as but

14:22

like that's not the world that we

14:24

exist in today and the other phenomenon

14:26

I think also is yes there is

14:28

discrimination in the tech world. The also.

14:31

You don't have to interact with clients

14:33

in person for the most part, and

14:36

that was a huge advantage in the

14:38

early two thousand was that Saddam is

14:40

less overtly transposing. I would say that

14:43

you know people in the in the

14:45

nineties. two thousand and six you would

14:47

get fired from at the end him

14:49

out at work on you know there's

14:52

obviously a famous thrive when Conway right

14:54

Bias I I I think you know

14:56

in general. Was more accepting

14:58

of trans folks than other professions that

15:00

were more has market Murphy singer and

15:03

players were like but. Now

15:05

that you're trends right now.

15:08

totally. Do you have advice

15:10

for other trans people who are thinking about

15:12

going into Attackers? Who are you know in

15:14

early stages of their career right now. Yeah.

15:17

So this is actually one of the

15:19

reasons. Why I backed a company called

15:21

Career Karma is that I was seeing

15:23

this problem of a lot of people

15:25

looking to get a check for from

15:27

under represented backgrounds were like know hey

15:29

this is an environment of some try

15:32

and make the barrier it seems like

15:34

it might be lower than I thought.

15:36

like you know I as I could

15:38

actually make some money here more than

15:40

I am currently making and then you're

15:42

getting fleeced by these and scrupulous boot

15:44

camps and leaving a Career Karma was

15:47

founded. Do It! started by a couple

15:49

of. I think black and latino

15:51

guys and their ambition was to

15:53

make friends the system of a

15:55

boot camps. Like to publish actual

15:57

real reviews of boot camp sucks.

16:00

Or could learn what they are

16:02

getting into so. I had to

16:04

just he will like go check out Career

16:06

Karma. You're interested in joining the boot camp.

16:08

Lights don't get sucked into gear. Promises about

16:10

you know we buried six percent least and

16:13

reader whenever right like it's you know three

16:15

months, six months of your life. It's like

16:17

a lot of money and tuition money that's

16:19

either owed and conditionally or consistently upon you

16:21

finding employment like make sure that you find

16:23

something that is is going to give you

16:26

the right headlights. I do think that good

16:28

chance of place on as the sadly that

16:30

is much more affordable and much less expensive

16:32

than college but as much. Less regulated and

16:34

college even for profit college which is

16:36

it's own board sales see I I

16:38

I did you know just. Make.

16:41

Sure that you know you're getting into

16:43

that but there is a much more

16:45

wealth his pathway then the days when

16:47

I first got into into taxes are

16:50

paying it was seeking of earlier courier

16:52

you has been. Doing. A

16:54

lot of organizing work. In addition

16:56

to your other work for a long time

16:58

and the i didn't know his.was something that

17:00

you felt like you and very intentionally. Created.

17:04

As a role for yourself or whether you

17:06

felt like it was something that you just

17:08

fell into or were like pushed into. you

17:10

know how intentional was that work? Oh, I

17:12

completely fallen. activists And a chance. So here's

17:15

a size two thousand eight. You know, I

17:17

was the starry eyed person who's by oh

17:19

my God. I got any the little despite not

17:21

having a college degree and being a college. Dropout rate

17:23

like oh my god This is awesome. Might. You know

17:25

we're going to change the world. We're gonna, you

17:27

know, make the world's information universally. Accessible and

17:29

useful. And

17:32

then be kind of cold hard. reality

17:34

hits that Google was actually doing some

17:36

evil, wasn't doing no evil. So Two

17:38

Thousand Eight, it's y'all Remember was the

17:40

year of property in California and the

17:42

Was founder. Sad, You know we're in

17:44

favor of are these families like you

17:46

know we're We're encouraging people to vote

17:49

no on eight. And.

17:51

You know the even when you see brass and you know

17:53

the google founders advise you not to vote no on it.

17:56

But. Google took money

17:58

from the Yes Honey campaign Substance. Com.

18:00

And. They had a dedicated account rep to

18:03

help the Us on. A campaign maximize

18:05

their impact. For revenue spent like

18:07

the millions of dollars in pour it

18:09

into the Just Non Profit campaign and

18:11

saying things that you know we would

18:14

regard is a homophobic or friends other

18:16

today you know right? Make Protect California

18:18

families from the gates right? So. That

18:21

was a moment of shop for me

18:23

realizing that you know to google homophobes

18:25

Money is is is money belt villas

18:27

take it involves help homophobes. So since

18:29

we the employees found out about the

18:32

sales rep allocated to the pro probably

18:34

campaign there was a like phone and

18:36

I just what know where it he

18:38

had died out that has there was

18:40

no organization there is no ability to

18:42

have a sustained campaign so a couple

18:44

your pass and then it's i know

18:47

energy that nine beginning of twenty times

18:49

and the was about to launch. To

18:51

Be I too Plus Project which

18:53

is I tools answer to Facebook

18:55

and they had made design decisions

18:57

to try to replicate what they

18:59

viewed as making Facebook successful in

19:01

one of those elements was a

19:03

real names. And

19:06

there I was just renting them have to

19:08

my mates and I are see I'm in

19:10

the Cambridge office are being like a like

19:12

this policy sucks and you know didn't they

19:14

consider that this is gonna hunt trans people

19:16

in this is gonna hurt sex workers, Mrs

19:18

gonna hit crook teachers and therapists and Obama

19:21

lots. And other were like yeah you know

19:23

thing is that right? and. I

19:25

was thinking to myself. This

19:28

is gonna sit there and go nowhere. This is

19:30

gonna be like the property thing where to dine

19:32

with his like there was no structure around it.

19:34

like you know no one's gonna hear about a

19:36

conversation and employees are having in in a random

19:38

my receipts handle. What? If

19:40

we wrote an open letter to the leadership

19:42

of the schemes and like he like know

19:44

we're going assume good faith. but have you

19:47

considered the impacts that your policies going to

19:49

on the specific groups of people? I offered

19:51

up of of these documents and shirted Nyasi

19:53

channel those rest again. And

19:55

google lox cross because we immediately hit cities

19:57

will who were all opening a document one.

20:00

The edited it and admins so we saw

20:02

some of these issues and then a couple

20:04

days later on right before is about to

20:06

hit the sunburns you to the leadership team

20:08

hopes of do of us people came to

20:10

me and realized I don't amazing and I

20:13

swung Simon into it's my was liquid and

20:15

there's no place to sign names to that.

20:17

This is literally just a way less agreement

20:19

says like you know what in ways that

20:21

we can make it better than okay thought.

20:24

So the petition and kind of group organizing

20:26

as that was an afterthought, straight tragic and

20:28

be right. But as a fellow. End of

20:30

this on that and if they suddenly two

20:32

thousand people out as at the time you

20:34

google says yes were some companies to the

20:36

people with India will find their names this

20:38

letter and said like we don't want to

20:40

the latter romance policy. And

20:42

what was interesting was that. Leadership lessons

20:44

but they said we cannot communicate with

20:47

two thousand people like you need to

20:49

what elect to choose by the at

20:51

like a group of you know, six

20:53

to twelve people that we can actually

20:55

interact with right? that contains mediate the

20:57

torches and pitchforks. So

20:59

that's the story of how I became almost

21:01

Sig union rep right? Like was was his

21:04

idea I was working with. People might like

21:06

it. It also hope that I had sort

21:08

of our in management who was similarly right.

21:10

I see this problem. I recognize that you

21:12

have legitimate grievances, but I. Don't want to

21:15

deal with two thousand angry people who are renting

21:17

at me and my team with ten you

21:19

like help resolve the dispute. So I was doing

21:21

that but primarily oriented around how to admit he

21:23

was. Products that are might make you know

21:25

when it's going to make the company more much.

21:29

And the company did not recently the gets near that

21:31

time. Passes. Liver.

21:34

Other people who are organizing at the same

21:36

time but around things that would cost the

21:38

company money. In particular, Heritage

21:40

like they are. Food is a

21:43

new really awesome person. Here

21:45

the time was a fellow safe, reliable

21:47

engineer and she published a spreadsheet of

21:49

Like People Salaries. I. Think of share

21:51

my salary internally. and

21:54

see was his were actually be

21:56

against into some actually push out

21:58

of the company but sizes. When

22:00

did not approve of her doing that

22:02

play as much slower. I think that

22:04

it is not fair to say that

22:06

you at the time who was wholly

22:08

welcoming organising activity only welcome into certain

22:10

kinds of organizing activity. And they are.

22:12

I have to recognize that privilege. So.

22:15

There are some principals work at

22:17

Google who has invited me to

22:19

talk with their coworkers and I

22:21

always get a lot of questions

22:23

from both this and trans people

22:25

that are like what can we.

22:28

Do for trans people from our positions

22:30

as relative privilege and you know I

22:32

have my little answers but I assume

22:34

you also get this castle and I'm

22:37

just curious. Like how you answer at.

22:39

Oh do I have answers? That question,

22:41

Are you think the primaries are

22:44

things that we. Can Do is

22:46

just not make life works for

22:48

transit. These large technology conglomerates hold

22:51

a lot of power over the

22:53

world and when that tower is

22:55

used to abuse trans people is

22:58

deeply deeply troubling to me. Whether

23:00

it be I've you know trends,

23:02

phobic and Skyn run that kind

23:04

of shit, that overton window towards

23:07

becoming friends who being accepted right

23:09

arm, whether we see instances on

23:11

social media being used to bully

23:14

him, threatened trans people. That.

23:16

Really unfortunate case. Several days ago, a

23:18

non binary trans school child was beaten

23:20

to death or after at their school,

23:22

was riveted by lumps of ten. right?

23:25

I think that's the primary way

23:28

is stop your company from harming.

23:30

Are being complicit in the harm

23:32

as trans people tires. The number

23:34

one thing that I'd ask you

23:36

to do. Organize internally. Get these

23:38

policies teams get your to be

23:40

actual like responsibility and content moderation.

23:43

And then I think finally earned to

23:45

give is a powerful on useful thing

23:47

is applied appropriately like you know can

23:50

I. Earn money in a way

23:52

that doesn't directly harm principle. Obviously, you know you

23:54

shouldn't be like going out on in blood money

23:56

him and trying to repair the damage caused. But

23:58

like you know, assuming that. Earned money

24:00

through the tech sector threat. Like putting

24:02

that to work to help trans people

24:05

in ways that are directed by Twenty

24:07

Bowl for trans people. Com just you

24:09

know thinking about what's the most effective

24:11

way. Lights and you'll It's assists and

24:13

in some cases that may be a

24:15

five, one C three but you get

24:17

a tax write off for in other

24:19

cases it might be political activism organizing

24:21

are dirt political donations right? There's kind

24:24

of the bass spectrum of ways to

24:26

economically top disadvantage trans people. We.

24:28

Actually brands and on the show earlier this season and

24:30

she was talking about how and I can see of

24:32

money as to give away as much as you possibly

24:34

can right now and I think that so many people

24:37

have a hard time without because we are all said

24:39

this like capitalists scarcity message and you're one of the

24:41

only people I see who is. Really?

24:43

actively. Doing. The

24:45

work to give large parsons of your

24:47

money away and I was wondering if.

24:50

You. Know what it is about

24:52

you that has been able to counteract

24:54

these messages and like allowed you to

24:56

give so much of this money away.

24:58

So the catalyst for me was the

25:00

Twenty sixteen presidential election relic. I was

25:03

like holy shit twenty four in danger

25:05

and I was like holy shit i

25:07

cannot feel com for like making this

25:09

amount of money and she of not

25:11

give you know. I

25:13

thousand dollars You thousand dollars to know

25:15

that dollars to helping trend sequel which

25:17

get passports with get documentation before like

25:19

the door slams shut on accidentally slip.

25:22

Trump. Administration Brooks the ability to get

25:24

seen Center Markers Rights said I was

25:26

in the first for a that my

25:28

spouse and I said into this farmers

25:30

activism and philanthropy. Some of this work

25:32

let us towards working with the National

25:34

Center for Tension or Quality Flight like

25:36

some of this work let us to

25:38

working with trends left lifeline and you

25:40

know over the course of time that

25:42

organization is becoming much more effective organization

25:44

them via organization and grew too quickly

25:46

and embezzled money totally basically for us

25:48

ill is in a seem impact or

25:50

dollars hydrant with been really really. Involved in

25:52

their three with it's not as dollars to us

25:54

relic it's the stories of how the work that

25:57

we did weather at the Mcg is policy work.

25:59

Whether it be. The money that

26:01

that one's life point has given people this

26:03

user Id documents related. That.

26:05

Makes a huge difference in people's

26:07

lives. Anger. In. Of my starts in

26:10

Iraq are big fans of this. Idea of You

26:12

know, so we find ways to get some

26:14

one hundred dollars that they don't wind up

26:16

you know, are being evicted from their apartment

26:18

and having a thousand dollars be do right

26:20

like that sign is a thing that we're

26:23

thinking that should you skill this outright, that's

26:25

how do we do this effectively with organizations

26:27

that are funded by more than just stops

26:29

relics that does not be a death sentence

26:31

upon. A single or

26:33

individual fry like this? This has to be

26:36

at some Unity funded efforts right? I think

26:38

that's thing as the the main thing that

26:40

we're working towards. I think

26:42

the other angle that you're asking about his

26:44

you know, how did we feel comfortable giving

26:46

away large sums, hundred and and then yesterday?

26:49

He wants to know when is enough Like

26:51

what is enough for you to control in,

26:53

Live on and then are you know? Can

26:55

you give away anything beyond that right? like

26:57

that? I think is is the key thing,

27:00

but I recognize as the thing that our

27:02

lives and people do not reach and that

27:04

is really really unfortunate. I wish were a

27:06

world in which trans people hadn't just as

27:08

much wealth and that were just as it

27:11

didn't seem. Distribution. Of economic status as

27:13

opposed to trends you're being socio

27:15

economically. Disadvantaged yeah I have

27:17

found that. When. I'm

27:19

talking til. Most. says

27:21

people and or most taxi

27:24

paw. They. Don't really have an

27:26

awareness of how little money the average

27:28

Tams person has and the fact that

27:30

like the average trans worker, Only.

27:32

Makes like sixty percent of the average says my

27:35

car and not only people that actually can find

27:37

work and the unemployment rates also higher in do

27:39

you feel like there's that disconnect for you with

27:41

coworkers? were they just like really don't understand the

27:43

level of the need? I mean like any coworkers

27:45

or for any time I'm not trying to like

27:47

make you call out of a person right now.

27:50

Oh God I am so so. So

27:52

fortunate that be startup that I work at

27:54

now we're something like twenty years to be

27:56

percent clear. It's. Fucking awesome. I'd

27:59

love it. On the

28:01

yes. You're right, it can

28:03

be a challenge and at the end of

28:05

the day for that you know you and

28:08

your colleagues are there to do works right.

28:10

like not necessarily to talk about trans rights.

28:12

ah I think. Definitely a really tricky balance

28:14

though it's to strike I think in general

28:16

I don't think it's on and trans people

28:19

who are vulnerable when in in their workplaces

28:21

to. To. Educators, his colleagues and I

28:23

still don't think it's that's a reasonable last.

28:26

I'm. Interested you. You said that you work

28:28

at this company. That's like very clear. Also

28:31

very try and from demand an absence

28:33

of color. obviously that is just an

28:35

objective good to do. You feel like

28:38

there's any way that that has noticed

28:40

li affected anything about the way the

28:42

company operates. I. Don't have that can

28:44

be like accommodation structure linguistic. Hiring

28:46

is a set of a lot. Easier

28:49

like We have so many

28:51

qualified candidates, right? It turns

28:53

out. That on people who

28:55

are members, dissidents, minorities, We.

28:57

Talk to each other about our workplaces.

29:00

So it turns out that he knows

29:02

he got in an instant. Some very,

29:04

very qualified people who really, really want

29:06

to market the Reflux are very selective

29:08

about what workplaces that they're willing to

29:10

consider. Right in That I would argue.

29:13

There. Isn't a lowering the bar? There

29:15

is a raising of the bar litter.

29:17

Parts to be with Caliber is amply

29:20

town and we are tracks right wing.

29:22

I think that's a huge advantage. May

29:24

I think? beyond that you know we've

29:26

I am. So. My company

29:29

hi some weird sentimentally a big data

29:31

company right we analyze data from software

29:33

developer systems in give Salford offers better

29:36

to lean to interrupt that they didn't

29:38

make their systems. So I think that

29:40

any design practices really really enhanced by

29:42

having a diverse and represent new set

29:45

of backgrounds are of the people working

29:47

minded as as the acceptable they reach

29:49

up to an interview. I. Decent

29:52

that you get better outcomes with regards

29:54

you a more usable products and is

29:56

more inclusive. I think the end of

29:58

the day though we have. To prove

30:00

that we succeed as a business right like

30:02

that, you know our mission is not diversity.

30:04

Our mission is building a successful business and

30:07

if we do that, you know along the

30:09

way we'll prove that that the favor see

30:11

has been helpful to us. I.

30:14

Wanted to. Hop around

30:16

a little that I can. You just

30:18

tell us what their coworkers solidarity fund

30:21

as and how it works. I wanna

30:23

make sure we we get to this

30:25

today. Oh yeah, absolutely. So I'm in

30:27

Twenty eight Seen a couple of Giant

30:30

The Oscars rocks Google first year as

30:32

Project Maiden in which it was revealed

30:34

that Google Ways I'm working with the

30:37

Us Department Defense to build Serbian Ai,

30:39

surveillance technology and Blacks like data centers

30:41

for the Us Department attempts to aid

30:44

in what they claim was only. Going

30:46

to be aerial surveillance and you know

30:48

their of the a human and whoop

30:50

to pull the trigger. Pets like nine

30:52

really uncomfortable and also selling Know you

30:54

know if I don't have access to

30:56

inspector classified data center that we're building

30:58

for you that you're not you know

31:00

using a I to automate pulling the

31:03

trigger separate maven happened. Then project Dragons

31:05

Like happened in which us was a

31:07

collaborating with the People's Republic of China

31:09

to build a not only censored version

31:11

of the search engine that would lie

31:13

to you about air quality. Result in

31:15

Beijing could also be would turn over

31:17

the results of searching for a person's

31:19

mobile phone number two and sorts of

31:21

they conducted without due process or a

31:23

warrant right? Honestly that latter part was

31:25

was given more friendly. Keep. On

31:28

Channel Smart, they understand that this results

31:30

are censored. That's not the issue. The

31:32

issue is turning over people data without

31:34

their consent. That's scary, not ethically. Okay,

31:37

so the fact that Google pulled these

31:39

you know to secret projects in a

31:41

row product maybe projects Dragonfly. There was

31:43

huge uproar and employees revolted and leadership

31:46

did not listen to them on. and

31:48

we're really really saw us on these

31:50

demands don't Number one. Number two was

31:53

the Google Evans walk out. right? That

31:55

happen. Also, in in twenty again. I

31:57

wear. It was revealed back double paid

31:59

Md. The been from unlike eighty

32:01

ninety million dollars to finally meet after

32:03

he was found. By. The

32:06

board tours are sexually harassed

32:08

subordinates. Now. The

32:10

real with wake up call for employees set

32:12

the bar perhaps their own that like employees

32:14

like we're on our own, we need to

32:16

organize like this is existing. structures were working

32:18

for things that we didn't know about arm

32:20

and that we need it more formal mechanisms

32:22

to ensure that the was going to be

32:24

absurd. So.

32:27

In the wake of all of that. I. Proposed

32:29

a strike on for the one place because

32:31

I heard from a lot of my colleagues

32:33

that know. They're comfortable, of course you

32:36

know, turning up to the author to new showing

32:38

up to a protest for an hour lunch. But.

32:40

That it's akin to a sustained industrial

32:42

action or for came to the company's

32:44

further retaliating. Next people as the company

32:46

I'm actually did against the Go Women's

32:48

Walk Out organizers, we're not prepared to

32:50

resist that kind of union busting fact.

32:52

You know previously the approach or been

32:54

okay like in our representatives will pass

32:57

it out and was not working anymore.

32:59

We worked in heard some he to

33:01

build more worker power so that spark

33:03

need proposing a strike on for Alphabet

33:05

Workers and I ducked legends for something

33:07

like a hundred thousand dollars in the

33:09

span of my two weeks. And.

33:11

Then I said, i'll match that one for one

33:14

Right Then I'm on. I'm saying, you know, enough

33:16

is enough Amber towel Like I'm tired. I don't

33:18

think what I'm doing is working for me anymore

33:20

And they're on a boat and carry on the

33:22

spider google. So I resigned in January of nineteen.

33:26

And Air Google paid me a severance of

33:28

nine. Get out the nose runway are they?

33:30

they can out some of my in advance

33:32

of my softbrands. Was. Some.

33:37

Of my softbrands early was ninety thousand

33:39

dollars, right? I think that speaks to

33:41

the extent to which Google employees precisely

33:44

those were previously rewarded for their organizing

33:46

efforts, right? That is not typical.

33:48

Must have been placed my like bus on

33:50

break so ninety thousand dollars and I was

33:52

like okay great I will take this my

33:54

that I've gotten to do Glad when you

33:56

put it to immediate work creating something of

33:58

solidarity or strike mind. And. Then

34:00

we ran into a couple dishes on we

34:02

had to think about what they're appropriate. Legal

34:05

vehicle was for delivering defines how they react

34:07

to the youth saying have good governance the

34:09

kinds after the trend pipeline fiasco you know

34:11

you can understand why I'd share about good

34:13

governance and being involved in the mesmer where

34:15

my money is going. So. We

34:17

ran is hop was hurdles rate

34:19

like we looked at. can we

34:21

use the vehicles that unions traditionally

34:23

used to distribute? Strike once a

34:25

final one sees fine labor conditions.

34:28

It turns out you cannot

34:30

do that. The ties we

34:32

wanted to be inclusive of

34:35

people, sub contractors and a

34:37

pregnancy fight because of lobbying

34:39

by the auto industry. It

34:41

from cover employees have multiple

34:43

different companies. In three

34:45

states and Us area. Or

34:48

it can be nationwide for one it one

34:50

single employee or record. It's not be

34:53

both things you couldn't tell you know

34:55

Google employees and sub contractors in all

34:57

fifty states and I. Believe.

34:59

Deeply and class solidarity. I know that

35:01

Google subcontractors summers the worst treated workers

35:03

at in the Google conglomerate, right? So

35:05

that's how we want to say okay,

35:07

we know this work. Are you know

35:10

actively doing labor organizing has actively discriminating

35:12

money for the benefit of mutual benefit

35:14

of of workers like this is not

35:16

either One C Three material. It's not

35:18

five When see materials to leave on

35:20

it for eating, be braver when see

35:22

former coworker solidarity when. And

35:25

over the course of best importance he would

35:27

pledge that hundred thousand dollars. In the course

35:29

of talking other donors we realize that we

35:31

were really Houston are some as if we

35:33

said this is only for Google workers and

35:35

will support Vector some to make a broader

35:37

tax sector. On so

35:39

he must apply Led Attack Worker Solidarity Fund

35:42

I believe in twenty twenty at something here

35:44

to get off the ground. And

35:47

get we We basically are now

35:49

working towards. you know we've. Made.

35:52

Grants to workers are paid at

35:54

netflix, workers organizing at Apple, and

35:56

also non tech sector ops assaults

35:58

organising Starbucks approach. About creating

36:00

a similar are organizing French finance

36:03

folks at Amazon I. we are

36:05

very crucial toward helping some of

36:07

the people started be Amazon labor

36:09

union. I said a of yoga

36:11

helps get off the ground the

36:13

trees we stopped and pretended to

36:15

be retaliation that they experience from

36:17

Amazon from being as damaging as

36:19

it would have otherwise been necessary.

36:22

Time be coworker solidarity and Vitamin

36:24

C for clear a mutual aid

36:26

organization where the a misuse have

36:28

workers were making a little. Bit

36:30

more money are a little bit more

36:32

comfortable giving money to backstop workers who

36:35

are struggling. Little bit more and really

36:37

could use a twenty five hundred dollar

36:39

sides and to cover the rent or

36:41

to cover i bind cab ride home

36:44

after a late night protests right? Like

36:46

all these things are permissible, uses the

36:48

clothes we validate that people are actually

36:51

doing the organizing work. And

36:53

we trust that the know the best way to use

36:55

as sites. Ah, delay.

36:58

Athletic. Club thing ah lol happening at

37:00

all of them again. You've. Experienced

37:02

really horrendous and now as tag

37:04

that harassment and doc thing online.

37:07

I. Would love to hear what privacy tips

37:09

you have rather trans people are people are

37:12

hi doc singer as as as the answer

37:14

with a lot of the things I've a

37:16

portfolio company for that one of my portfolio

37:18

companies is on top hobby and hauled off

37:21

these business model is to. Create.

37:23

Anti Harassment as a. Form

37:27

of employee insurance right back the

37:29

same way that you would buy

37:31

health insurance covers for your employees

37:33

that anyone who is in the

37:36

line at their job placed exciting

37:38

dressed that they should receive coverage

37:40

to to cover that rest of

37:42

mitigating and sat rest on so

37:44

tall Poppy is led by the

37:47

very wonderful Iraq and Li and

37:49

arrogantly are are phenomenal banners amazed

37:51

and of create this idea that

37:53

in players should be responsible for

37:56

and employers and. Also, individuals who are

37:58

privately willing to pay rent it's ten. Can

38:00

receive biggest kind of. Benefits of.

38:03

Hardening, Their profiles in advance of having

38:05

crisis response available to them in the

38:07

event that. An employee experiences

38:09

severe harassment. I just like you do their

38:12

job or not but as their job right?

38:14

Now. We've covered in place. you have these

38:17

domestic violence restocking situations. Rail it. It's similar

38:19

to the gate program I gave me a

38:21

P program. You might have access to

38:23

therapy, might have access to financial counseling you

38:25

might have access to. You know, basic legal

38:28

consulting fees are things that well heeled companies

38:30

should be, funding for their employees and

38:32

acting a collective. Isaacs? it's not A The

38:34

person who gets harass has to be reasoned

38:37

with. The class. At

38:39

is this is broader and spread across

38:41

more employees knowing that statistically at least

38:43

one employee is going to get a

38:45

huge amount of now he wanted this

38:47

and that he knows the employer's going

38:49

to benefit by not having that employers

38:51

like disrupted. Sir Paul Hobby is a

38:53

new update. Enterprise Service or also Tall

38:55

Poppy puts out a lot of really

38:57

fantastic guides. As two hundred and yourself

38:59

and interest mans, you know how I

39:01

need to get my manager or succeed

39:03

about. You know what's going on or

39:05

these are all resources that Tall Poppy

39:07

can help with. And for the

39:09

are people who are not commonwealth ah among

39:11

us I'm so happy as a com not

39:14

fraser brain to you know someone who is

39:16

exists in their field or otherwise it is

39:18

you know someone who is a tree was

39:20

rushed and to everyone else is trying to

39:22

cut because you know because because they're like

39:25

i'm jealous of that person right. In

39:28

a trans people we are fabulous. I was

39:30

a freight and I think the and that's

39:32

why we attract a lot of hatred house

39:34

a house there that self. Again,

39:37

So in addition to you

39:39

doc saying targeted harassment, that

39:41

genre of things to worry

39:43

about on the internet. Either

39:46

other. Internet related

39:48

or tech Really concerns that you think

39:50

trans people said have on their radar

39:52

that maybe we're not talking about or

39:55

thinking about in mass generally. I

39:57

think broadly every transfer.

40:00

The know a trans person sex worker in

40:02

the same way. As you know there's a

40:04

story have of every tenth person at a

40:06

trans person cat. Border of right. I think

40:08

we need to think about how we're. Address

40:11

this issue of sex work being

40:13

deemed criminal because it's impacting the

40:15

livelihoods of so many members of

40:17

our community. So I think that's

40:19

the main lobby thing, but I

40:21

brushed nice. It's going be really

40:23

challenging what the republican controlled congress

40:25

with the prospect of a republican

40:28

president and twenty twenty four rightly.

40:31

So. Yes,

40:33

I do think everything is sex related

40:36

legislation. Things that we should be aware

40:38

of that we need to reverse the

40:40

damage of as soon as we can

40:42

and I'm I think that we need

40:45

to make sure that we are protecting

40:47

and uplifting sex workers And that means

40:49

that as soon as we can and

40:51

do the damage that far since Sl

40:53

done to work to those communities there

40:56

the better Right that when we're criminalizing

40:58

sex work when we are criminalizing platform

41:00

set have sex workers right? That makes

41:02

it very. Very difficult to act for

41:04

those people to turn the wedding or

41:06

at least for it forces them into

41:08

more precarious situation in terms of like

41:11

finding fine for they otherwise might not.

41:13

So I think that thing as the

41:15

number one thing obsessed and legislation related

41:17

piece of activism that we can be

41:19

doing when the local conditions are right

41:21

that is now is not the time

41:23

knowing that you or see some huge

41:25

backlash against friends you being able to

41:27

use the fucking lives if we we

41:29

can't use the loo like you know

41:31

and Republicans are legislating against bad and

41:33

legislating. Against trends we've been able to exist

41:35

in schools are like. Yes

41:37

it is. Now that we need to

41:39

fight that battle and we need to

41:41

eventually win an award for From Fossil

41:44

The when we we have to say

41:46

oh we've forgotten about Awesome Sastre Absolutely!

41:48

And are they? Do you have anything

41:50

they wanted to ask. Fi. Last

41:52

question. I. Do have one

41:54

question and I don't know if you'll have an. Answer to this

41:56

but I was thinking about it when you were

41:58

talking about lake. Organizing at Google

42:01

Crashing Google Docs. I

42:04

guess I'm just curious. Like a someone

42:06

who has worked at Google and has

42:08

criticisms of the company but then also

42:10

obviously so many organizers use a lot

42:12

of these tools. Just

42:14

like if you have any thoughts about

42:16

how to think about like the tech

42:19

tools that were using to organize, knowing

42:21

that so many of them are controlled

42:23

by companies that might be doing awful

42:25

things or. Trying. To use them

42:27

again. The stuff in some cases. So.

42:30

I think fundamentally it would destroy

42:32

Googles business model if they ever

42:34

used to their technology to spy

42:36

on people who are working against

42:38

Google arm and regular damage or

42:40

their enterprise trusts right? like you

42:42

would certainly be worried about if

42:44

you are competing with Google hours

42:46

of having into your Google knocks

42:48

used against you right with you

42:50

know, for long time at least.

42:53

My understanding is that see Smoke

42:55

use Google docs right? like while

42:57

simultaneously competing with with whom the

42:59

social networking. Three so it's not to let

43:01

hum he know Obviously don't use Google I com

43:03

email for things you don't want. Google next up.com

43:05

The We'd We'd. Like. Is

43:08

your some other kind of activists to

43:10

is not employed by the Ago and

43:12

is organizing amphibole? I really don't think

43:14

you should have to worry about losing

43:16

to the left Organized for it with

43:18

obviously you said no for like anything

43:21

that's genuinely genuinely sensitive but like. Yeah,

43:24

that was far more to lose by

43:26

trying around in user data and Google.

43:28

In my experience and my experience of

43:30

the boss I know at the book

43:32

or so working there on the premise

43:34

Engineering teams in the other engineering and

43:36

the security engineering teams like there are

43:39

very robust safeguards to prevent an executive

43:41

from the answer will from deciding that

43:43

they wants to breeds bridge google lox

43:45

like that that is not a realistic

43:47

threat model. if the government isn't your

43:49

for i'm all right like then know

43:51

reminder whether it's cooler weather the notion

43:53

like that's not face really you need

43:55

to be using fully decentralized are mechanisms

43:58

of organizing. It boils down to. Are.

44:00

You going to be more likely compromised

44:02

by a mole within your organizing group?

44:05

My. Like it's much more break reasonable. Think

44:07

about humans are threat models and against the

44:09

thing to think about you know, google esoteric

44:12

leader sightings. All right, Everything one of their

44:14

privacy controls and you being the target of

44:16

that's right. Like it's maybe they will be

44:18

Eigen Rothys and five years and years of

44:20

school from truly evil. But like at the

44:22

moment, there are a lot of. Keep.

44:25

What the law Who are before working

44:27

to prevent inside arrest him to prevent

44:29

tampering and like the European Commission would

44:31

have a field day with Google if

44:33

they ever get this right. If they

44:35

used as a know their their access

44:37

to people's documents you to them steal

44:39

from them rights So. Be.

44:41

Realistic about drugs so bright lights you

44:43

are more likely to a compromise if

44:45

you don't have second bachelor set up

44:47

by someone just in your password and

44:50

lodging in his you spray artwork he

44:52

lives in the event that than you

44:54

are you know get some Richmond's a

44:56

double servers that expect again. If

44:58

you are working at a company, do

45:00

not use company resources or for organising.

45:02

yes I company relic. That is a

45:05

cardinal and very clear rule. Like beyond:

45:07

Act like a haven't seen any of

45:09

the Google workers call for a boycott

45:11

of Google and I have no practically

45:13

how how easy that would be do

45:16

so. I. Think that

45:18

you should use the tools or lose deceptive

45:20

you rather than hampered your own efforts in

45:22

order to kind of have the security of

45:24

no, I'm not going to use Google or

45:26

Amazon Chortling, right? Up

45:28

my answer your question or the as

45:30

is very long as there's no yet

45:33

itself because the an appeal. The security

45:35

and privacy engineering answers always and yeah,

45:37

no I think that's that's very reassuring

45:39

actually. So thank you for setting that.

45:41

Yeah. Bottom line, you actually care about

45:44

it. Pretty insane on disappearing messages. You're

45:46

allowed to do that and not subject

45:48

to litigation crumble com of. The

45:51

way we always and the south is by

45:53

asking. In. Your ideal world. What

45:55

would the future of gender look

45:57

like? Oh boy. Be

46:00

sure of gender. I aspire

46:02

to a future where

46:05

people can express their

46:07

gender without your retribution

46:09

and in which there

46:11

is the fully representative.

46:14

Said. As you know, professions and

46:16

prayers in and com site among friends

46:18

people just same way that there are

46:20

among to see. That's the thing that

46:22

I that I was for. I am

46:24

profoundly incurred in this idea of not

46:27

pulling the latter up after me on

46:29

and therefore I aspire to a more

46:31

prosperous future of work for everyone, but

46:33

especially to equalize a lot of the.

46:36

Disadvantages that have held trans people and

46:38

especially trashy both most once intersection our

46:40

these are that has held us back.

46:48

asgonnadoitfortheseeksoutyoucanfindlivesatlivesthegray.comalliesthetoatcreycomyoucanfindusoncthreeonashedgearoundaccomplicegenderaswaytogetaccesstoourweeklynewsletterandonmyphoneishipath.wearealsooninstagramandgenderpodcastthatcomorwiththattranscriptsoreveryepisodeandbunchmorearemarchoffhisoutfitarealliedforcesundermarcholmertisavailableonlytotheendofmarch.proceedsgotoourmutualaidfindsanforces.

47:18

And he and really suffering. Did

47:20

episode with season edited by as

47:22

a list and then and by

47:24

was or logo is by Iran

47:26

lie or theme song is they

47:28

pick master cylinder additional music by

47:30

our friend up with that person.

47:32

Will be back next week with

47:34

more feelings about gender free Palestine.

47:48

I. Will say I am now in a lawsuit against the

47:50

City of Portland where they. Were. Like can you hand

47:52

over your text messages from the time and I

47:54

was like know they burned baby. I can't give

47:56

you anything. sorry about. That.