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five casino! Hello

1:00

everyone and welcome to George Conway Explains It All.

1:02

To me, I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of The Bullwork

1:04

and because I'm not a lawyer, I've asked my

1:06

good friend George Conway to explain the legal news

1:08

to me. He's from the Society for the Rule

1:11

of Law where a lot of our friends are.

1:13

Hey, great live show last week. Almost

1:15

sold out six and a half. I think they loved

1:17

it. You, you were out of control,

1:19

man. Of course I'm always out of control. It

1:22

was super fun, didn't you think? It was fun, it was fun. You

1:24

like seeing that Bullwork crowd like there? I liked

1:26

using the word spank. You did, you were,

1:29

you know. I mean,

1:31

how often do you get to, in an important

1:33

legal discussion, get to use the word spank? Sure.

1:35

I could see how that was a thrill for

1:37

you. For me, I felt

1:39

like I was in like a religious venue and

1:42

I felt like I was maybe offending, if not

1:44

my God, someone's God. But, you know,

1:46

it's cool. I think

1:48

it's the magazine gods. And some of

1:50

the magazines are for reading, not for spanking. Speaking

1:52

of funny things that George Conway

1:55

does, so I saw that you put up

1:57

your own billboard. I did. I can just

1:59

see you having a. good time. This

2:01

was a very good time and

2:03

I was interviewed by local Palm

2:05

Beach media this morning. Yeah. And

2:08

I'm gonna actually talk about it. Everyone needs hobby. Billboards

2:11

are great and basically, whoops, sorry. And

2:13

here's what the billboard says. You

2:17

too could buy one of these hats not

2:19

covered in soda or George could

2:21

spill soda on it for you.

2:23

I will charge extra. Last thing

2:25

before we get to actual legal news.

2:27

Mm-hmm. Nikki Haley endorsed Trump yesterday. I'm

2:29

taking this hard. Yeah, you are

2:32

taking it hard. I noticed that. I don't

2:34

know if you had any thoughts about it you'd like to share? Not

2:38

any that you probably not bleep.

2:40

But look, I mean, deep

2:42

down I knew she was gonna do this.

2:44

I just knew like if you ask me

2:47

is she gonna do this? Yes. But the

2:50

optimist in me hoped that she would not.

2:53

But the her boundless

2:56

cravenness just reared

2:59

its ugly head again. And it's quite

3:01

amazing because, you know, I

3:04

understand what Tim

3:06

Scott is doing better

3:08

than I understand what Nikki Haley has

3:10

done. Tim Scott has

3:13

made his decision. He wants

3:15

to be vice president of the United

3:17

States or a cabinet member or something

3:19

and he's willing to basically degrade himself

3:23

to the ends of the earth in

3:25

order to achieve that goal. And,

3:27

you know, maybe there is some, you

3:31

know, moral reasoning behind it. One

3:34

day Donald Trump may choke on

3:36

a cheeseburger and he will be president and

3:38

he will not be as bad as

3:40

Donald Trump. Which I believe it would not be as

3:42

bad as Donald Trump. Sure. I mean nobody

3:45

could be as bad as Donald Trump. So on

3:47

that theory, you know,

3:49

I could see it makes

3:52

sense what he's doing because he's at least

3:54

he has a goal and is a logical

3:56

progression to achieving that goal even though it

3:59

involves a lot of level of self degradation that most

4:01

of us, at least you

4:03

and I could never tolerate. Nikki

4:08

managed to degrade herself to

4:11

before, during the administration, before the

4:13

last couple of months of the

4:16

campaign and now and

4:18

then at the same time completely

4:21

threw away the benefits, the

4:23

possible benefits of that degradation

4:26

by telling the truth about the guy for a couple

4:28

of months. So

4:31

I don't understand the logic

4:33

behind it. Maybe

4:35

there's some kind of a long game that

4:37

she's playing that she thinks that she

4:40

can't get the support of Republican voters in 2028

4:42

or 2032 when she'll still be relatively young without

4:50

saying that she voted for Trump however unenthusiastically

4:53

and she can't get

4:55

the support of people

4:57

who oppose Trump without speaking

4:59

out against Trump. But

5:05

it just strikes me as she's pissing

5:07

everybody off and I don't really

5:10

think there's an upside to what she has done.

5:12

Her better course would have been just

5:15

to do what

5:17

she did the last couple of months of the campaign

5:19

where she redeemed herself a little bit and then just

5:22

basically go into hiding for the next four years. Or

5:25

lead a movement to have a

5:27

resurgence of the Republican Party that I think

5:29

she thinks exists. I don't think it exists.

5:31

But look, I can't follow

5:34

it. I get what you're saying strategically. I

5:36

can't help it. I think that's

5:39

not a moral judgment. The moral judgment

5:41

is it's appalling. The moral judgment is

5:43

it's appalling. I sort of can't play

5:45

their four-dimensional chess with them because it's

5:47

also Craven. The thing is, for me,

5:50

I'm going to get off the Nikki Haley roller

5:53

coaster and I'm going to learn a lesson from

5:55

this because I have allowed myself,

5:57

with Nikki Haley specifically, to

5:59

get off the Mystic yeah, I'm in

6:01

money. This is the moment. She's gonna I

6:03

worked I tried to help help her in the primary

6:05

I mean, you know, she when she was doing

6:08

my theory about people is if they come around and

6:10

do the right thing Praise

6:12

them for it instead of slapping them for what they've done

6:14

in the past. Yes I

6:16

don't know whether that rule I think

6:18

I will make an exception for the

6:20

next wishy washy Flip-flop that Nikki Haley

6:22

does and just gonna ignore it. I

6:24

think that's right We're gonna take a break here too and

6:26

pay some bills So before we move on I want to

6:29

say that this show is sponsored by better help, you

6:31

know, I Am hurting

6:33

after this Nikki Haley news, even

6:36

though I knew it was a strong possibility Her

6:39

announcement she was gonna vote for Trump. It's put me a

6:41

little on edge And I'm

6:43

sure this news is not gonna be the only trigger

6:45

that riles me up before November That's

6:47

why a safe space like therapy is a great place

6:49

to get all of the stress in your life out of

6:52

your system Rather than to keep them bottled up inside

6:54

George. You don't keep them bottled up inside, right? I

6:56

don't keep anything Is

6:58

this your therapy? Do you feel like we're doing therapy here?

7:00

Is this a good outlet? I have a

7:02

couch Yeah, I lie down on

7:04

the couch and I you know when people like

7:06

Nikki Haley give me a headache Yeah, but you

7:08

know, I mean you can have a couch and

7:10

you can talk to your therapist beer. That's right

7:12

Better health good strategy, right if any of

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7:39

George. Okay, let's get to this

7:41

New York election interference We're getting

7:43

closer to the verdict in New

7:45

York case The prosecution

7:47

and the defense of both rested next week

7:49

will be closing arguments and jury instructions from

7:51

the judge and then it goes to

7:53

the jury so Trump didn't testify

7:55

you surprised about that. No I

7:59

mean Disappointed obviously I

8:02

was trying to persuade him not to

8:04

listen to his lawyers Even his even

8:07

though his lawyers were giving

8:09

him very sound advice But you know I

8:11

my view of it that was I think

8:13

I expressed it last week is he doesn't

8:15

listen to his lawyers anyway So if he's

8:17

listening to his lawyers, he's not really doing

8:19

it because he values their legal advice. He's

8:21

doing it because he's chicken So

8:24

he was chicken and he failed

8:26

to testify and he loves to stand out there

8:28

in the hallway and make

8:30

his unchallenged remarks that include

8:32

things like The

8:34

temperature in the courtroom is really

8:36

easy Is

8:39

it as cold as he know and in

8:41

fact there is a reporter from law 360

8:43

which is basically a a legal

8:48

Publication that lawyers read about cases that you when you

8:50

want to read about big cases in the southern district

8:52

of New York Or in the state courts in New

8:54

York and This

8:56

fellow Frank Runyon brought in a

8:58

thermometer to the courtroom and You

9:01

know you get readings like 72 74 75 sometimes it's down right

9:03

balmy It

9:07

was balmy if anything I could see

9:09

a gentleman like him wearing a suit

9:11

and Carrying

9:14

with his stature Being

9:17

a little overheated instead of being cold

9:20

interesting. So I it was utterly

9:22

mystifying to me and then there were the the

9:25

Compulsory lies that he kept telling about

9:28

how essentially it was a gulag

9:30

out on the streets that no one

9:32

could approach Which was a completely false

9:36

You could walk up and down the streets.

9:38

There are obviously lots of those barricade those

9:40

bicycle type barricade Yeah, they have a New

9:42

York But there was nothing to prevented you

9:44

from walking up and down either side of

9:46

the street or gathering in

9:48

the central plaza directly across from

9:50

the courthouse and in fact,

9:52

they were like, you know, no Ten

9:55

or fifteen Trump supporters there at

9:57

one point and there was room

9:59

for hundreds more But they didn't

10:01

bother themselves. They didn't disturb themselves to actually

10:03

show up all these people Maybe you could

10:05

have gotten a third of a subway car

10:09

I don't know if you let the Republicans in Congress. They

10:11

probably all would have showed up I

10:13

think at some point I think at some point there

10:15

might have been more Republicans in Congress there than than

10:17

actual like Trumpers,

10:20

I mean, you know regular Trumpers All right

10:22

So the prosecution called 20 witnesses during the

10:24

trial including David pecker stormy Daniels hope Hicks

10:27

We all talked about them in earlier episodes

10:29

the key witness for the prosecution was Michael

10:31

Cohen Michael Cohen Which we talked about a

10:34

little bit in the live show But after

10:36

the live show the team spent about three days cross

10:38

examining Cohen. So how did he do on cross? He

10:41

did very well You know,

10:43

I think the object of the

10:45

cross of Cohen was to point out

10:47

all the different things He has lied

10:49

about and done wrong his life The

10:52

the problem it didn't strike me as

10:54

particularly effective. I attended one full day

10:57

of his cross They didn't strike me

10:59

as particularly effective because it was already

11:01

brought out on The

11:03

direct examination in a very matter-of-fact

11:05

way and he owned everything and

11:08

a lot of the false You know

11:10

the the bad behavior he had engaged

11:12

in he had engaged in on behalf

11:14

of the defendant so it

11:17

really there wasn't much effect

11:19

to it and the

11:22

only moment and the other

11:24

thing about the cross examination is and I'm

11:26

surprised because I was told that Todd

11:29

blanche the lawyer conducting it was was a

11:31

very good lawyer I

11:35

Guess by some standards he is he was a

11:37

former assistant United States Attorney a lot of people

11:40

I know no Know

11:42

him who they practiced with him in the

11:44

Southern District US Attorney's office But

11:46

something sometimes about prop one thing about prosecutors

11:49

is they don't really know how to cross-examine

11:51

witnesses And the reason is is

11:53

because they're the ones always put on putting on

11:56

the direct case with the witnesses that

11:58

are cooperating with the government And

12:01

then the defense usually does not

12:03

put on the defendant and usually

12:05

does not put on a case

12:07

and usually just argues reasonable doubts.

12:10

So they never really get the opportunity

12:12

to learn how to cross-examine witnesses, which

12:14

is surprising because people go into prosecutor's

12:16

offices to get experience and trial experience

12:19

and that whatnot. And actually it

12:21

turns out if you work from a big law firm,

12:23

a big corporate law firm where you barely ever see

12:25

the inside of the court, you

12:28

actually can learn how to cross-examine witnesses better because

12:30

you take these long depositions and

12:32

you get to play with basically how to

12:34

ask questions of various people. But

12:36

anyway, his cross-examination was terrible for a

12:39

number of reasons. First of all, he doesn't really know how

12:41

to ask questions. I

12:43

mean, one of the rules of

12:45

cross-examination is you ask simple, short questions

12:47

that are yes and no. The longer

12:49

the question is, the more the witness

12:51

can fence with you. His

12:53

questions weren't that good. The other thing is cross-examinations

12:58

ought to be, and the famous Irving

13:00

Younger who taught trial practice in

13:03

New York always made this point. Cross-examination

13:06

has to be quick in a lot of ways.

13:08

It has to be make your point,

13:11

repeat your point, make the next

13:13

point, repeat your point. You don't go

13:15

over everything under the sun. That's

13:17

what the direct examination is for. You want

13:19

to leave the jury with – you

13:22

want to take shots at the witness that

13:25

the jury is going to remember, and the

13:27

faster you do that, the better and the

13:29

more repetitive. You can pick five

13:31

things you want to establish. The witness is

13:33

a liar. The witness did this. The witness

13:35

– five

13:38

things about the witness and his

13:40

testimony and him as a person.

13:44

But you want to do it in a fashion where

13:46

you just ask 10 or 15 questions that are repetitive

13:48

and just – so you drill the point home. His

13:52

cross-examination was unbelievably

13:54

meandering. It

13:56

was oddly structured because there was one point that

13:59

was not that good. that he actually

14:01

made apart from the you know that saying

14:03

you pled guilty of this and you lied

14:05

about that and which is all fine but

14:07

he did it in a meandering disorganized way

14:09

the one point that he actually had I

14:12

mean the problem with the other problem with the crop is that

14:14

it didn't actually deal with Cohen's testimony

14:16

it dealt with everything else he had done

14:19

in his life but it didn't really for

14:21

the most part with this exception I'm about

14:23

to get to go to challenging what he

14:25

testified in this case about the charges in

14:28

this case and about what Donald Trump did

14:30

except for this one thing which he did

14:32

on the second day of cross just

14:35

before lunch and it was almost random

14:38

it was a cross examination about

14:40

a phone call that

14:46

Michael Cohen had made to Keith Schiller

14:48

who was Trump's bodyguard yeah and so

14:51

what happened was on direct Cohen

14:53

said oh yeah I talked to Trump and the

14:56

way I got to Trump on this day I

14:58

think it was October 24 2016

15:01

was I called Keith Schiller sometimes I'd call

15:03

Schiller because I'd know Schiller was with Trump

15:06

and I spoke to Trump I

15:08

remember speaking to Trump and I and that

15:10

phone call on the record here though of

15:13

the Schiller was was a conversation with Trump

15:16

and then what what the

15:18

defense did on cross was very

15:21

effective actually it was the one

15:23

point they actually scored with

15:26

with against Cohen and again it was

15:28

right before lunch on the second day I think

15:30

it was and they

15:32

had they

15:35

had a record of texts

15:38

between Cohen and Schiller

15:40

that showed that Cohen

15:43

had been texting Schiller about

15:45

some harassing emails or

15:47

text or something that he had been receiving

15:49

from some teenager I mean doesn't

15:52

matter what it was but it was just he was complaining

15:54

about it he wanted to talk to the FBI and Schiller

15:56

was the security guy so he says what do I do

15:58

about this and then right

16:00

just before that phone call was

16:02

made, Schiller says, call

16:04

me. And then the

16:07

phone call occurs and we put the timeline

16:10

together and then there's a something after the

16:12

phone call, you know, um, a couple of minutes

16:15

later that related to that same topic that didn't

16:17

have anything to do with Trump. So

16:19

that was the big aha moment for the

16:21

defense. They said, aha, you

16:23

didn't talk to Trump. You talked to Schiller. You

16:25

didn't want talking about Stormy Daniels. You

16:28

were talking about this, this 14 year old girl.

16:30

You wanted to report to the FBI. Aha.

16:33

And Cohen was, you know, thrown off by

16:35

that. And he was thrown off

16:37

by that because it came as a surprise to him.

16:39

I think the prosecution somehow missed that

16:41

when they prepped him and

16:44

he was trying to figure out like, what the hell,

16:46

where did this come from? And I

16:48

think he ended up, you know, he ended up

16:50

giving some kind of mealy-mouthed answers and then said,

16:52

well, I could have, I think I probably talked

16:55

to both of them, which is entirely

16:57

possible, even though it was a very short conversation.

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five, casino. And so he did,

18:03

you know, it did call into

18:05

question whether or not maybe he

18:07

was over-reconstructing his recollection. On

18:09

the other hand, his demeanor was

18:12

to, was

18:14

like he really wanted, you could see he was concerned

18:17

about it because he really wanted to give accurate

18:19

testimony. So to my mind, I would

18:21

have argued just on the matter alone, it's like

18:23

you saw his reaction. Maybe that

18:25

he talked to both, maybe his

18:27

recollection wasn't perfect on that one,

18:29

but look at all the other

18:31

evidence. And he wasn't

18:34

trying to bluster his way to that. He was trying to get it right

18:37

by focusing on the records. And

18:41

then I thought, okay, that

18:43

wasn't great. There was a lunch

18:45

break right after that. And I said, you

18:47

know, that's not great, but I didn't think

18:49

it was such a big moment by itself,

18:51

although the lawyer, the

18:55

defense lawyer was screaming about it,

18:58

like, and you lied, and you

19:00

lied, you know, like top of his lungs

19:02

in the jurors' right, looking like, whoa.

19:05

And, you know, I thought that was a little overdone.

19:08

I think the most effective way to do that

19:10

is to basically do it low-key and said, you

19:12

were wrong, weren't you? You didn't

19:14

talk to Trump. You talked to Schiller. You didn't

19:16

say that on your direct examination, correct? You didn't

19:18

talk about calling Schiller because he

19:20

had texted you, right? You got that wrong,

19:22

right? And you could just

19:24

do that very effectively. But anyway, they

19:27

did score points. And then

19:29

I thought, you know, as I was out

19:31

to lunch, I said, this could be worrisome and problematic

19:33

for the prosecution if they have a few more of

19:35

these, also on the phone records. And

19:38

so the afternoon, I was like, oh, boy, let's

19:40

see this. This is juicy. Let's see what else

19:42

they got. They had nothing. They

19:45

had these, it was just, it was

19:47

a more rambling cross-examination. Like how many

19:49

times did Maggie Haberman write a story

19:52

about you? Like,

19:54

who cares? It was really,

19:56

and it was just bad cross-examination. And then,

20:00

The redirect came and

20:02

the prosecution did a fabulous

20:05

job with Cohen on redirect.

20:07

And the other thing about Cohen, remember,

20:09

is he never lost his cool. They

20:11

wanted him to lose his cool. He

20:14

was and Cohen was portrayed going in as

20:16

this kind of a wild man. They even

20:19

played some tapes of him being a wild

20:21

man on his podcast, but Cohen kept his

20:23

cool and was very

20:25

credible looking. And then anyway, so

20:27

the redirect, the prosecution had

20:30

something really good up its sleeve. They

20:33

had C-SPAN footage of

20:36

that exact moment at 8 o'clock

20:38

on the evening of October 24th.

20:42

They had C-SPAN footage of Schiller next

20:45

to Trump at a rally, making

20:49

clear that it could have easily happened.

20:51

That made perfect sense that

20:53

Schiller, they could have had even a call

20:55

Schiller and said, oh, is the boss there? Here, let me

20:57

talk to you. Hey, boss, Stormy's

20:59

all taken care of or something, whatever the conversation was

21:01

supposed to be. And that, I

21:03

think, just took the winds out

21:06

of the sails of the defense. And

21:08

then the next thing that happened, so

21:11

Cohen wasn't, you know, they scored a

21:13

few points on Cohen, but I think

21:15

Cohen was a very, very effective witness.

21:17

And the thing that they had done,

21:19

as I've mentioned in our prior discussions,

21:21

is that they had pre-corroborated Cohen. I

21:24

mean, Cohen's story is basically a story,

21:26

his direct examination, which was walking through

21:28

the paper trail. Everything he

21:30

said made sense as he

21:32

explained it. There was no other credible

21:35

story that explains the

21:37

sequence of transactions and the sequence

21:39

of phone calls and the sequence,

21:42

and in particular, Alan Weisselberg's handwritten

21:45

notes where he basically figures out how

21:47

he's going to pay back Cohen by

21:49

grossing him up and pretending it's income,

21:52

which was just completely fraudulent. So,

21:56

I thought after Cohen was gone, I

21:58

thought the prosecution really had basically... gotten

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23:52

So then the prosecution rested

23:56

and the question was okay what

23:59

the defense is the... fences turned put up a

24:01

case and the real question was obviously whether Trump

24:03

would testify but the first they

24:05

put on a paralegal to get

24:08

some documents in and then the

24:10

one substantive witness they ended up calling

24:12

not Trump was this fellow named Bob

24:15

Costello who was the reason

24:19

why they called him I think was happened is

24:21

that this guy had testified on

24:23

the hill before one of the crazy

24:25

house committees and made a big

24:28

deal about how Cohen was a liar and it

24:30

got a lot of play on Fox News and

24:32

then people on Fox News for about a week

24:34

and a half were clamoring you gotta call this

24:36

guy he's the kill shot witness and

24:38

I think Trump fell for that and

24:41

what happened was it was apparently reportedly

24:43

a debate on the Trump team is

24:45

the rather or not to call Costello

24:49

but you know if it if Fox News

24:51

says he called Costello what do you think

24:53

the boss is gonna say sure kill shot

24:56

kill shot right kill shot witness

24:58

this guy's gonna kill him because he says

25:00

you know and the story was that this

25:02

fellow tried to get

25:05

Michael to hire him

25:07

as his lawyer after

25:09

the US Attorney's

25:11

Office and the FBI executed

25:14

a search warrant on Michael's home and offices in 2018

25:16

and so there's a lot of back-and-forth

25:20

about that and the

25:23

upshot of the testimony that the defense

25:25

was going to elicit and did elicit

25:27

from Costello was that oh

25:29

Michael Cohen told me that he didn't have anything

25:31

on Donald Trump that there was Donald Trump had

25:34

done nothing wrong and they had no no evidence

25:36

of that bad behavior by Donald

25:38

Trump stuff like that and but this is what

25:40

work you know he this

25:43

is before Cohen realized he had to tell the

25:45

truth and try to get out of any plea

25:47

guilty and whatnot so I you know

25:49

we really should have been a limited value any but they

25:51

thought this just shows he was telling

25:53

the truth then and Costello

25:59

was absolutely absolutely the

26:01

worst witness imaginable, both

26:04

stylistically, behaviorally,

26:07

and substantively.

26:12

On the direct examination, oh, on

26:15

the cross-examination, he testifies the way

26:17

he testifies on direct examination brought

26:19

out by the defense. And

26:21

then on cross-examination, no, actually,

26:25

no, it was a direct examination, the

26:29

defense lawyer started asking a

26:31

bunch of objectionable questions. The

26:33

prosecution objected, and

26:36

Justice Mershon sustained the

26:39

objections. And

26:41

at one point, the

26:43

witness said, geez, you

26:46

know, remarking about what the judge had just

26:49

done. And

26:52

then the judge said, excuse me.

26:56

And then he basically started staring

26:58

down the judge. And

27:00

at that point, the judge got really, really

27:02

mad. And he

27:05

excused the jury so that he

27:07

could chastise the lawyer, I mean,

27:09

the witness. And

27:11

the witness was apparently giving him a dirty look.

27:13

I didn't see it. I wasn't in

27:16

the courtroom at that moment. And

27:18

then he basically threw the press out because he wanted

27:20

to just basically ream the guy, and he

27:22

didn't want to do it in front of the press because he

27:24

thought the guy was probably performing for the press. But actually, I

27:27

think he was performing for Donald Trump because he wants to be,

27:29

you know. Chief

27:31

of staff. Yeah, he'll probably

27:33

run DOJ. Yeah, yeah, the

27:35

head of the newly created

27:37

Department of Gulag. So

27:41

he basically tells the guy, you are in

27:43

contempt. You are in act behaving consummation. You

27:46

are acting contemptuously of this court. And I

27:48

will not have that. And

27:50

if it continues, I'm going to shh. I'm going

27:52

to take you off the stand,

27:55

and I'm going to strike your testimony. Do

27:57

you understand that? He said to the Trump

27:59

lawyers. They said, okay, yes

28:01

sir, yes sir. And so they came back.

28:03

So he was just terrible. And one

28:05

of the things that the people in the courtroom

28:08

noticed when this bad behavior was occurring in front

28:10

of the jury before the jury was

28:12

taken out was the jurors

28:14

were just appalled. And one of the

28:16

things that happens in trials is the jurors love the judges.

28:19

Because the judges are always, you know, they're

28:22

the ones that they're giving guidance to the

28:24

jury and they're showing respect for the jury.

28:27

And it's never a

28:29

good idea to get the judge mad

28:32

at you in front of the jury

28:34

because then the jurors draw negative inferences

28:36

against you and your client. And

28:38

if you're a witness who's clearly, you

28:41

know, being called on one side to

28:43

bolster one side, it doesn't reflect well

28:45

on the client, they call them. So

28:48

anyway, the cross-examination continued to

28:50

the next day and was ended

28:53

and then, no, the direct

28:55

examination, and then the

28:58

prosecution did a cross. And it was really the

29:00

only cross, substantive cross-examination, the prosecution had an opportunity

29:02

to do the entire case because this was the

29:05

only substantive witness to the defense called. And

29:08

Susan Hoffinger, the prosecutor, just

29:10

did a magnificent job.

29:12

It literally was a, you

29:14

know, you could show, if you had

29:16

a video of it, it would be perfect to show

29:18

in a trial practice class in the law school. She

29:21

just went through these emails

29:23

of Costello. Costello

29:26

was a thug, basically. He was trying

29:29

to get, he was, it was clear

29:31

from his emails, he's trying to get

29:34

Cohen to stay on

29:36

the side of Donald Trump. It was,

29:38

these were mob-like emails. Like,

29:40

oh, we can keep him quiet and

29:42

things like that. And

29:45

the overwhelming impression that you got

29:47

was, here was a guy who

29:49

wasn't really seeking to

29:51

help Michael Cohen, but

29:54

he was seeking to, he was really

29:56

acting on behalf of Donald Trump to

29:58

squelch the testimony, the harm. test

30:00

of harmful and truthful testimony of a

30:02

potential witness against them and the it

30:06

just so backfired against the defense I

30:09

mean it I cannot it

30:11

cannot be understated how damaging that had to have

30:14

been to the defense and

30:16

so that's how the trial and that's how the trial

30:18

basically ended on as far as testimony is concerned so

30:20

now we've got you know they arrested

30:22

we've got closing

30:25

arguments and then a verdict

30:27

yeah no what happens next is and then it

30:29

is that the they will closing

30:31

arguments on Tuesday and then one of the

30:33

most important moments that people forget about a

30:36

couple lawyer from Everett is the

30:39

judge will spend an hour giving

30:41

the jury the charge where he

30:43

basically explains what the

30:45

law is that the jury is supposed

30:48

to apply and basically

30:51

directions on how to decide

30:53

you know what on what basis to

30:55

decide the case and what you know and

30:58

how that connects to the jury verdict

31:00

sheet and those instructions

31:02

are very very important because there are

31:04

some very important questions

31:07

of law that get

31:09

resolved because the judge

31:11

is the arbiter of what the

31:13

law is and the jury is the arbiter what

31:15

the fact are but the law

31:17

makes a difference and so they've you know

31:19

it we were going to see that charge

31:21

or going to see in what ways it's

31:23

helpful to the prosecution in what ways it's

31:25

helpful to defense and you

31:28

know the wording of a charge can

31:30

determine a verdict and it

31:32

also can determine whether or not a verdict

31:36

of conviction is reversed on appeal it's

31:38

a very very tricky thing that the judge has

31:40

to do and that's also very important so what's

31:42

going to happen that's going to be read to

31:44

the jury either at the

31:46

end of the day Tuesday or the first thing

31:48

Wednesday the court is going to sit Wednesday for

31:51

the first time because you know they're trying to

31:53

get this verdict in and

31:55

then by Wednesday morning either late

31:57

in the morning or first thing

32:00

the jury will be deliberating whether

32:02

or not to find

32:05

that Donald Trump is a criminal. And

32:07

how long do you expect it to take

32:09

to get a verdict? You know, it's

32:12

impossible to predict because you just don't know, you

32:14

know, it's 12 people in a room discussing

32:17

things that they think are important and

32:19

it depends on their

32:22

perceptions and it depends on

32:24

their personalities. It depends

32:26

on, you know, how discussions can among large

32:29

groups of people they can

32:31

go sideways, they can be very fast,

32:33

they really, and you can have

32:35

the same group of 12 people one week and the

32:37

same group of 12 people the next week. It

32:39

could be a completely different kind of discussion depending

32:41

on what, you know, whether somebody is tired or

32:43

got off the wrong side of the bed. It's

32:45

just, you just don't know. It's very, very, it's

32:48

a very human process. That

32:50

said, I would bet

32:52

that, you know, Friday afternoon is

32:55

when you get a lot of verdicts because

32:57

it's like, okay, we don't want to

32:59

come back on Monday and we've done this for two

33:01

and a half days. Do you think it could be

33:03

next Friday? I think, yes, I think it could be

33:05

Thursday or Friday. Yeah, um, you know, I think that

33:07

week, yeah, my, you know, if I had to put

33:09

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34:15

you know, again, that's just, that's

34:17

just, I mean, the

34:19

first jury trial I ever sat through

34:21

as a lawyer, as a practicing lawyer,

34:23

the jury got the case on

34:25

Thursday, and you know, at five o'clock on Friday, sure

34:28

enough, they came in with a verdict. So

34:31

you have been foolish on the prosecution

34:33

this whole time. Yeah. Felt like they have

34:35

done their job, done a good job. And

34:38

so do you expect this jury to come back and find him

34:40

guilty? I do. But I

34:42

mean, you know, I look, but with the qualification

34:44

that you just don't know what happens

34:46

with juries, you don't know, you can have a

34:48

couple of whole, I think if I had to,

34:51

if I had to lay percentage odds, which is

34:53

just a foolish thing to do, I would say

34:55

it's probably 70% or 80% likelihood of conviction and

34:58

a 20 to 30%, maybe even less than that,

35:08

chance of a hung jury, actually

35:10

probably less than that, and a

35:12

very small sliver of a pure

35:15

acquittal. I just don't see that happening. And you

35:17

have to remember too, there are just different

35:19

ways you could slice it. They could find

35:21

guilty, find him guilty on some counts and

35:23

not others. I'm not sure what the dividing

35:25

line would be, maybe one dividing line would

35:27

be for the counts

35:30

that involved the checks that were signed on

35:33

his personal account by him. That could be,

35:35

you know, I could see somebody saying,

35:37

well, I'll conduct them on that, the rest, I don't know.

35:40

But that's all speculation. But I think, you

35:43

know, I don't think, I

35:45

don't think the prosecution, I think the prosecution

35:47

did what it had to do. And

35:51

the only dent

35:53

they ever made on Cohen was that

35:57

One issue about that one phone call, but it's

35:59

a sliver. Weber of the testimony

36:01

and evidence against Trump and

36:03

I think the T. Redirect.

36:07

Hum. Of Cohen men. Diffuse.

36:10

That. But pay in up at the

36:12

I. that's that's my thoughts on. My

36:15

unbiased on his fists but that that's pussy

36:17

so has the thing about. that's the thing

36:19

about trials Aziz, you never know and take

36:22

a lot of incoming right now from people.

36:24

Kind of is not reporters pre writing their

36:26

stories about what happens if there's a conviction

36:28

and how does it impact. Voters.

36:30

As you know, we've been asking about the trial

36:32

and are releasing. I'm not. I don't really look

36:34

at it and that those terms. I don't know

36:37

that it really is gonna matter that much. Devoted,

36:39

but you're the expert on that. I think people

36:41

have made up their minds already about him. What's

36:43

interesting is that when we asked one, the focus

36:45

groups are not really following the. Trial Mary mostly.

36:47

And the ones who are pretty confused actually.

36:50

A There's a woman who said something that

36:52

I thought was a lost art ever. I

36:54

think some of because they can't see it.

36:57

As. The filter through the media's she was saying

36:59

when I turn on Fox News I think the

37:01

cases gonna get thrown out worse and when I

37:03

turn on a B C I think Trump's going

37:05

to jail for in like I just so know

37:07

what to believe and so I think that. A.

37:10

Conviction. Here's my overall take is

37:12

an open. A conviction hurt sam

37:14

on the margins, but in an election

37:17

it's gonna be decided on the margins

37:19

times. It matters. I. Do think

37:21

if he is acquitted it helps him a

37:23

great. Deal the a lot of probably will

37:25

make ah he will make a out of

37:27

it in an asian and visit will actually

37:29

evil that will allow him to to pursue

37:31

his i'm a persecuted. Complete.

37:33

Total Exoneration. And yes, they were to

37:35

get me. I don't understand. That the

37:38

the hung jury saying. Do

37:40

they just retry it? Would ya? The hoses

37:42

is a hung if if the jury hangs.

37:45

And the jury doesn't have to hang on

37:47

every count they could base a weekend victims

37:49

and downs hang on tend to be any

37:51

combination. got it? And quinones for I mean

37:54

anything could happen. But

37:56

the the the prosecution has the

37:58

ability to retry. Any. Anything

38:01

that the jury doesn't reach a verdict

38:03

on? Yeah, Okay, Well

38:06

and an orgy out. The question is whether you

38:08

know whether it's worth doing that. That depends on

38:10

how many charges there are and if it's retried,

38:12

I don't know that will be retried. At.

38:14

Any time. A. Seattle before the election

38:16

is hard to say. Ah, Okay

38:18

George as always, thanks for signing the legal.

38:21

Nice to meet. Don't forget to hit subscribe.

38:23

Leave us a review in your podcast that

38:25

email us at Ask George at a bulwark

38:27

that com and we will see you guys

38:29

next week! Five will go

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