0:00

Darling, I was on a vacation

0:02

recently and stayed at an Airbnb, and

0:05

then I realized that while

0:07

I was away, my empty house

0:09

could be making money, honey. If

0:12

you're someone like me that is busy and

0:14

not home all the time, your home could

0:17

be an Airbnb, and it's actually pretty simple

0:19

to get started. Even if you don't have

0:21

a whole house, you could start with just

0:24

a spare room. Personally, I really

0:26

enjoy staying at Airbnb's. I really do. I

0:28

love a good Airbnb. Who is that? Come

0:30

back, British U. And it really is a

0:32

great way to support local economy and support

0:34

local people. So Airbnb is fabulous. And

0:36

I know I was doing my British voice earlier, but we

0:39

love Airbnb. So think about what

0:41

you could do with some extra cash. Whether you're

0:43

looking to treat yourself to something nice, like a

0:45

shopping spree or a spa day, or start a

0:47

whole side hustle, Airbnb can help you be that

0:50

person. Your home

0:52

might be worth more than

0:54

you think. Find out how

0:57

much at airbnb.com/host. Darling, I

0:59

was on a vacation recently and stayed at

1:02

an Airbnb. And then I

1:04

realized that while I was away,

1:06

my empty house could be

1:08

making money, honey. If

1:11

you're someone like me that is busy

1:13

and not home all the time, your

1:15

home could be an Airbnb. And

1:17

it's actually pretty simple to get started. Even if

1:19

you don't have a whole house, you could start

1:22

with just a spare room. Personally, I

1:24

really enjoy staying at Airbnb. I

1:26

really do. I love a good Airbnb. Who is

1:29

that? Come back, British U. And it really is

1:31

a great way to support local economy and support

1:33

local people. So Airbnb is fabulous. And I

1:35

know I was doing my British voice earlier, but we

1:37

love Airbnb. So think about what

1:39

you could do with some extra cash. Whether you're

1:41

looking to treat yourself to something nice, like a

1:44

shopping spree or a spa day, or start a

1:46

whole side hustle, Airbnb can help you be that

1:49

person. Your home

1:51

might be worth more than

1:53

you think. Find out how

1:55

much at airbnb.com/host. He

2:02

curious people. I'm Jonathan Venice and

2:04

welcome back to getting serious. You

2:07

guys. I. Have.

2:09

A Special updates I suppose him A

2:11

literally my name's Wayne last night's I

2:13

will talk about that one more time

2:15

in our interview with Our Guess Today.

2:17

But just the you know, A

2:19

little bit say twain. I. Asked

2:21

her literal career advice. She. Made

2:23

me cry last night. I. Have a

2:25

it a good way. I love Zinnia.

2:28

You're a goddess. End you slay. Sidebar:

2:31

Language. Linguistics. What's it

2:33

all about? How Alec.

2:36

Through. My career and really through

2:39

my life. I've. I. Love

2:41

language. I love vocabulary word.

2:43

I. I love a

2:45

moto. In fact in fifth grade I

2:47

literally started a moto company were like

2:49

I made a list of words that

2:51

were like freezes the i invented like

2:53

I have always and in this other

2:55

could make lacerated like arrival fucking moto

2:57

company and then art teacher miss Rescue

2:59

who also is the one who got

3:02

me obsessive finland ah because she was

3:04

like finish the shut down our company's

3:06

she's that was causing too much faith

3:08

in the class so our our motto

3:10

company got shut down but. I'd

3:12

be been such a public figure and. I'm

3:15

a writer, I'm a comedian A and

3:17

also just suddenly I'm interested in language

3:19

and had to have a lot of

3:21

conversations around language and how it's perceived

3:24

and how it comes across. And generally

3:26

I want to use language better. I

3:28

want to be more curious about how

3:30

it's a new language better missouri really

3:32

curious about like. How. Language

3:34

of the ball to how it's changed and

3:36

like. How are languages police?

3:38

both like in real life and on

3:40

social like media? And if there's a

3:42

difference to talk about this and so

3:44

much more. And you guys just like.

3:47

This one of our like I just it's giving me like. Just

3:50

this episode is so fucking good. You guys

3:52

to talk about this. We're bringing And and

3:54

Curzon. To ask: how can we

3:56

use our language more effectively. Let's.

3:58

Find out more about he incurs

4:00

on his the Dean of Literature,

4:02

Science and the Earth at the

4:04

University of Michigan where she also

4:06

teaches courses on the history of

4:08

English English grammar, language and gender

4:10

and the dynamics of conversations. She's

4:12

a train linguists in history and

4:14

of the English language. protect talk

4:16

at you and called what makes

4:18

the word real has over two

4:20

million views on the national Ted

4:23

site see earn her be a

4:25

Linguistics from Yale University and her

4:27

Phd in English Language and Literature

4:29

from the University. Of Michigan. Oh

4:31

My. God. Her credentials are so

4:33

major and I definitely midnight last

4:35

night. Oh My. God. A. Her.

4:37

Book says who are kind or fun

4:39

or usage guide for everyone who cares

4:41

about words. Just came out on March

4:43

twenty six. And walk into

4:46

the show how are you? I'm great

4:48

and I am delighted to be here.

4:50

Thank you so much for inviting me

4:52

to join you in! Some of my

4:54

favorite people in the universe have been

4:57

named an like my assistant oil have

4:59

so much as name is an my

5:01

grandma's name was an i Love Ends

5:03

so. Thank. You for coming

5:05

to you Birch searing you are expertise

5:07

with us am because you're really doing

5:10

it just and are in for we're

5:12

talking about. Your tenure

5:14

which is just like. Stunning.

5:16

Like you've done so many cool things

5:18

and you're a linguist. Make. When.

5:21

Did you realize that you wanted to be a linguist

5:23

For you? Like. Young are you

5:25

like in school? Like when were you mining?

5:27

Like how are you minding your own business

5:29

and then like the linguistics bug Just gotcha.

5:33

Jonathan I love starting

5:35

with this question because.

5:38

I went to college as a math. Major.

5:42

i didn't know what linguistics was

5:44

i of course went to college

5:46

before the internet i'm old enough

5:48

that that is this true and

5:51

i knew there was something out

5:53

there called linguistics i was a

5:55

really massey kid i liked martha

5:57

was good at math I

6:00

was also interested in languages, and I

6:02

liked languages. So I went to college

6:04

as a math major, and I took an

6:06

introductory linguistics course just to figure out

6:08

what it was. And I would

6:11

guess some of our listeners are also like, well,

6:13

Anne, what is it? So

6:16

it's the scientific or systematic

6:18

study of language in

6:21

general, or languages specifically. And

6:24

that course was interesting enough

6:27

that I thought, well, I'll take a second course.

6:29

And my sophomore year in college, I took a

6:31

course called the History of

6:33

the English Language, and it changed

6:35

my life. I loved it. This

6:39

professor, whose name was Marie Boroff,

6:42

knew the answer to questions that I

6:44

hadn't realized I wanted to know the

6:46

answer to, but... Oh, like tell us

6:48

one, tell us one. So

6:52

when was double negation standard in

6:54

the English language? Why is

6:56

kernel spelled with an L and

6:58

pronounced with an R? You

7:01

can answer that question if you

7:03

study the history of English. And I fell

7:06

in love, and I became a

7:08

linguistics major. And here I am 35

7:10

years later, still

7:13

studying the history of English. We've learned a

7:15

lot on the pod about things that ended

7:17

up having, this is a little bit of

7:19

a right term, but I'm just curious, especially

7:21

with where we are just

7:24

currently in the world. Yeah.

7:27

Like the history of the calorie, the

7:29

BMI, a lot of these things

7:31

have so much racism and

7:33

there's eugenics folded into it, which

7:35

is really intense, things

7:37

that you wouldn't even know, but it's

7:39

racism and the misogyny and the patriarchy,

7:41

it really seeped its way into all

7:44

up in this culture. How does

7:46

that history interplay into linguistics? Does

7:49

the linguistic academic community talk about

7:51

this? Is there a spectrum there

7:53

where people are like, oh,

7:55

get off that stuff. Like let's just talk about double

7:57

negatives and participles. And then is

7:59

there other? people they're like, no, we really need

8:01

to reckon with some of the ways

8:03

that like language was used to like, enforce

8:06

like class or perception or like how someone

8:08

is like received because if they didn't, you

8:10

know, get enough education and then they weren't

8:12

like, seen as like

8:15

deserving of respect or whatever. That was

8:17

a lot. I'm sorry. Oh, but

8:19

it is such an important

8:21

question. And the two pieces

8:24

that you said, is it one or the

8:26

other? And I would say actually, they're closely

8:28

linked together. And the

8:30

fact that language

8:32

matters for those fundamental

8:35

social questions is why

8:37

I stayed in the field. And it

8:39

was in graduate school that I had an advisor

8:42

who helped me see how linguistics

8:45

matters for real people in

8:47

real time in real educational

8:49

systems, because

8:52

we judge people

8:54

and discriminate against people based on

8:56

their language. So

8:58

the stakes are high. Language

9:01

is also a key part

9:03

of who we are. Sometimes people

9:05

will say, language is just like clothes, you can

9:07

put it on or take it off. And, and

9:10

I say, no, language is part

9:12

of our identity. It's part of

9:14

the communities in which we grew

9:16

up, and then the communities with

9:18

which we identify.

9:21

So it's a big part of us. And

9:23

when people criticize our language, it

9:25

can feel very personal because they're

9:28

criticizing a really foundational part of

9:31

our identities. That also just my intrusive

9:33

thought went into they

9:35

them pronouns, because that's such a genderqueer

9:38

person, like, I didn't really get

9:41

exposed to that language or under but I

9:43

mean, this was a feeling and an identity

9:45

that I'd always had. But then when I

9:47

met a look then I really

9:49

understood that's a good friend of mine. We

9:52

did an episode on this podcast and like a for

9:55

the show on Netflix. But Once

9:57

I learned the language, I was like, Wow. These

10:00

are the words that I been like

10:02

searching for describe how I experienced gender.

10:04

At my experience of gender and being

10:06

able to tell the difference between. Sachs.

10:09

Engender like. That's.

10:12

A huge thing bit. I think no

10:14

one's arguing or in biology. although we

10:16

kind of our because intersex people aren't

10:18

really ever factored into the conversation like

10:20

where they said beats. Because even biologically

10:22

like it's you know we know that

10:24

it's not fully of such a cut

10:27

and dry mary, even though there's like

10:29

a. You. Know there is more

10:31

of a majority but is still is like a

10:33

drum that. What about the

10:35

them pronouns and singular us like what can

10:38

I say that did you see that like

10:40

clipper that British lady it's like on that

10:42

British new so so and she was all

10:44

like refusing to use they them pronouns with

10:47

that like cool journalist and so I just

10:49

my views acts in sydney not say you

10:51

have we ever done they them pronoun for

10:53

a singular can you school that lady or

10:56

or wyatt. Oh. I have

10:58

such strong feelings on this I would

11:00

love to see if. I

11:03

had spent. For. Better

11:05

or worse, pretty much my entire

11:07

career thinking about pronouns and thinking

11:09

about singular day. So thank you

11:11

for asking. I'm gonna climb right

11:13

up until my soapbox. let me

11:15

get it up or yeah, nice.

11:17

Here we go. Yes, I'm

11:21

gonna start with the fact that

11:23

we have to have two different

11:25

uses a singular day that I

11:28

think are worth distinguishing. One is

11:30

really old and this is what

11:32

I would call center neutral. Singular.

11:35

They this would be they and

11:37

something like a teacher said learn

11:39

their students' names. Were.

11:41

Were talking about any teacher. This

11:43

is a teacher whose gender is

11:46

irrelevant to this conversation. A teacher

11:48

said learn their students' names or.

11:51

Someone. Who knows where they're going.

11:54

Rights. As someone, it's clearly singular.

11:56

Who knows where they are going?

12:00

Now a lotta people think that's new

12:02

and. I'm here to say as

12:04

a historian of the English language,

12:06

it is hundreds and hundreds of

12:08

years old. We have evidence back

12:10

to the thirteen hundred, Fourteen hundreds

12:12

of singular they. Said

12:15

that one even though in the

12:17

eighteenth century grammarians decided to say

12:19

it was wrong. It's

12:22

never. it's not wrong, it's and so

12:24

here I'll do a little schooling to

12:26

people will say to me and they

12:28

had not be singular. And

12:31

I say but it is and they say

12:33

but it can't be of I say but

12:35

it is Quit is not a very interesting

12:37

arguments to have but if you listen to

12:39

the way we speak. And. This is

12:41

true of: American, English, British, English, Australian, English.

12:44

The list goes on. They

12:46

is singular because we can say someone who

12:48

knows where they're going to give us directions.

12:52

The and then they'll say but a pronoun. Can't

12:54

be singular and plural at the same

12:56

time. With

12:58

is a really funny arguments make about

13:01

English because we already have a pronoun

13:03

that is singular and plural at the

13:05

same time, which is, and that is

13:07

you. Yes, So you.

13:10

Use. To be only plural. Say

13:13

you had us a plural pronoun. For.

13:16

The second person and you had dow.

13:19

As a singular pronoun. And

13:21

then in the Renaissance or to the time. A

13:23

Shakespeare thou starts to fall out

13:25

of use as a singular. Obviously,

13:28

there's still a few communities in

13:30

the world that use our, but

13:32

most of us don't and you

13:34

took over the singular function. Said

13:37

that you have you are one

13:39

person. Or. You.

13:41

Are. Lots. Of people

13:43

and. Notice that it kept the plural

13:46

are. But. You are can

13:48

be singular now of course, some of

13:50

them. What you and I know is

13:52

that people have also develop new plural

13:54

variants. I. Don't know what yours

13:56

is for? I really wish that I

13:58

was a Y'all speaker. I do. They

14:00

are, so it's not part of my

14:02

grammar. I grew up outside the seas.

14:05

I can't pull it off with any

14:07

legitimacy. I really wish I could. I

14:09

use you all, which is a subtle

14:11

difference, but I can pull that off.

14:13

In Pittsburgh. people use. yeah, Yeah,

14:17

I live in Texas, I totally see ya, But I've

14:19

been single for like a long time because they come

14:21

from like. West. Central Illinois

14:23

like on the Mississippi River. Select people

14:25

do. Say. Y'all I feel

14:27

like or at least they did at camp. Somewhere.

14:30

I heard at oh. Absolutely all over

14:32

the falls. All over the

14:34

South you have y'all in African American

14:36

in this many speakers will use your

14:38

of it's a great pronoun so so

14:40

in any case, we go back. You

14:42

can be both singular and plural, so

14:45

when people say to me they cannot

14:47

be both singular and plural I say

14:49

well, that is not a very persuasive

14:51

argument because a ten and. More.

14:53

Importantly, it already is.

14:56

It. Already is particular burrow. So we've

14:58

been having this argument and and what

15:00

I try to help people see is

15:03

the argument is really. It's.

15:05

Not canopy. Singular, the question

15:07

has been are we allowed to

15:09

write it down Because we say

15:12

it. And there's no good

15:14

reason we can't read it down. So you

15:16

have that singular day and then more recently

15:18

and this is relatively recent. We have non

15:21

binary. They. Said this is

15:23

singular, they. For people whose pronoun

15:25

is not he or seats

15:27

who don't identify with in

15:29

that binaries and they is

15:31

there. Pronoun: And I think

15:33

it's really important you sometimes hear

15:36

people call it a preferred pronouns.

15:38

And I think it's much better to say it's.

15:40

People's pronoun. It's not that

15:43

they prefer it. In

15:45

the way one could say like i

15:47

prefer see no see is my pronoun.

15:49

They is other people's pronouns, so I

15:52

think that that's a a helpful distinction

15:54

for people to have on that. The

15:57

non binary day. He. Is

15:59

a real the important development. For.

16:01

People who need a pronouns that

16:04

is not he and it's not

16:06

see and it expresses their identity.

16:08

It's true to their identity and

16:10

sometimes people will say to me.

16:13

I don't think I should have to use

16:15

they as a singular pronoun and. My

16:17

responses. It is fundamentally

16:19

an. Issue of respect that

16:21

respecting people is respecting their

16:24

names. And respecting

16:26

their pronouns. ah, In.

16:34

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Plus. The

18:39

Grammarians? When did

18:41

the... Who the fuck are they?

18:43

Were they like the literal grammar police? When

18:46

did they come about? Were they like... Were

18:48

they like in the... When were they? You

18:53

ask the best questions. Who are

18:55

these grammarians? And I

18:57

wish more people asked this question

18:59

and it's why I titled the

19:02

book, Irreverently, Says Who, that

19:04

we should be asking this question more

19:07

often when someone says double negatives

19:09

are illogical or

19:11

someone says they can't be singular.

19:14

We are allowed to ask the question, who

19:16

said that? And do I have to

19:19

believe that person? So

19:21

these grammarians in English, we

19:24

start to see the earliest grammars

19:26

in the 18th century-ish. That's when

19:28

they become popular. It is

19:31

a lot about class mobility. So

19:34

these grammars are a way

19:36

for people to quote-unquote

19:38

refine their English. And

19:41

this is when we're seeing the rise of the

19:44

middle class. Oh wait, when was this again? I think

19:46

my brain paused. So this is 1700. Wait, so the rise

19:49

of the middle class happened in the 1700s? 1700s to 1800s,

19:51

we're seeing the rise of the middle class

19:55

and we see these grammars come out.

19:58

So if we look at something like... singular

20:00

they, the earliest grammars that

20:02

talk about this are in the mid 18th century,

20:04

so mid 1700s. And

20:08

one of the really early ones is a grammar

20:10

by Anne Fisher, it's by a woman. And

20:12

she has this rule

20:14

in the book that says, the

20:17

masculine encompasses the feminine. So

20:19

in case you were wondering, John, the

20:22

masculine encompasses the feminine. And then she says,

20:25

for this reason, he

20:27

can be used for everyone. And

20:29

this gets picked up in this

20:31

grammar 1795, this grammarian named Lindley

20:35

Murray, he was an American. He

20:37

published this grammar called English Grammar,

20:39

a very, very creative

20:41

title. And it went

20:43

through dozens and dozens of editions, it

20:45

was highly influential. And in that grammar,

20:48

he takes a sentence with a

20:50

singular they. And that's important

20:53

because it means that Lindley Murray knew that

20:55

that's what people were saying, and

20:58

writing down. So he took that sentence

21:00

and he crosses out the they. And

21:03

he puts he and for 200 years,

21:06

we were stuck with this rule

21:08

that the correct singular

21:11

gender neutral pronoun was he.

21:13

And I'm old enough

21:15

that I grew up with that rule in

21:17

elementary schools, junior high school was that I

21:20

was supposed to write, a

21:22

teacher should learn his students names.

21:25

And that covered all teachers,

21:28

even though I will say, even at

21:30

a young age, it was quite clear to me that it

21:32

did not include me. The

21:34

first time we see them like talked

21:36

about is like the 1700s, or

21:39

did they exist like before that? Well, so

21:41

there have been grammarians for a long time.

21:43

And the question is what kinds

21:45

of books they were writing. So a

21:47

lot of the early grammars were designed

21:50

to help people learn a second language.

21:53

And we still use grammars that way. So you may

21:55

have a Latin grammar or a

21:57

German grammar to help you learn. a

22:00

language that is not the one that you grew up with.

22:03

What we see starting in the 1700s is these grammars

22:07

that really are usage guides.

22:09

They're not designed to help

22:11

you learn English. They're designed

22:13

to help you, quote-unquote, refine

22:16

your English so that you will

22:18

write and speak in particular ways

22:20

that are seen as better

22:23

or more educated, more civilized,

22:25

more educated, more correct, more

22:27

refined than other varieties. These

22:29

grammars are written to native

22:32

speakers of the language to

22:35

say, you need to improve

22:38

your language.

22:42

What is so powerful about these grammars

22:44

is that they naturalize the

22:46

sense that whatever variety they put out

22:48

there as the good or

22:50

the best use of English, what

22:52

has happened is that's been naturalized, that

22:55

that's just good English and that all

22:57

the rest of the kinds of English

22:59

that most of us speak most of

23:01

the time are somehow not

23:03

as good or even

23:06

wrong. A lot of kids in

23:08

school are told that they talk

23:10

wrong. I think that

23:12

that is devastating. If

23:15

you want to silence a kid, tell

23:18

them that they talk wrong, that their grammar

23:20

is bad. You're not

23:22

only telling them that they

23:25

talk wrong, but that their

23:27

mom talks wrong, their family,

23:29

their community. It's really powerful.

23:32

And I want to say as a linguist, it's

23:34

also ill-informed and

23:36

not accurate. They're

23:39

not wrong. They may be speaking a

23:41

variety that is not the standardized variety,

23:43

but it's a systematic variety. How has

23:45

all of this affected our society? What

23:47

do these

23:49

standardized, formalized rules say?

23:52

And what's their effect been on

23:54

culture and really America?

23:58

So many important questions packed in. there. Sorry.

24:02

No, it's cool. I love it. I

24:04

really do. And let's start with education because I

24:06

think it is really at the core of this.

24:10

And if I had a magic wand and I

24:12

could change something, it would be how we teach

24:14

language in school because

24:18

kids are curious about language because

24:20

I actually think humans in general are curious

24:23

about language. And in the

24:25

book, I talk about that every one of us

24:27

has an inner wordy in our head. And

24:30

this is the part of us that

24:32

loves language. And

24:34

it's clear from your questions. You're curious about

24:36

language. You enjoy it. People like to

24:38

play with language. They like to make up slang.

24:41

We know right now people are playing

24:44

Wordle and spelling bee and they rap.

24:47

We play. We love language.

24:50

Poetry. Poetry. It's fun. It's

24:52

beautiful. And when you can play with

24:54

it, we

24:56

should be nurturing that in school. And

24:59

what we should be doing, even

25:02

as early as elementary school, if you

25:04

think about elementary education, kids

25:06

are learning a tiny bit of chemistry,

25:08

a tiny bit

25:10

of biology, some geology.

25:13

Even if we don't call it physics, they're starting

25:15

to learn about things that are

25:18

physical. Gravity. Gravity.

25:21

They're learning some math. And then with

25:23

language, we start

25:25

with this very prescriptive

25:27

place, these rules that have been handed

25:29

down for generations as if that's

25:32

what it means to study language. But

25:34

no, we should start with how

25:36

does language work? Where do

25:39

dialects come from? Why do people in

25:41

Texas speak differently from people in Michigan?

25:44

How do they speak differently? Help

25:46

kids answer the questions about

25:49

how language actually works, including,

25:51

for example, who

25:53

wrote the dictionaries that you're using?

25:57

I was never allowed to ask

25:59

that question. I didn't even know that was

26:01

a question. Did you know that was a question? No,

26:03

who didn't? I ate those suckers. I asked too many

26:05

before, so we gotta, stay on your

26:07

train of thought. Yeah, no, we're gonna go there

26:10

because if you think about early childhood

26:12

in your classroom, there are dictionaries, and

26:14

now online there are dictionaries. So quote

26:17

unquote, what does a word mean?

26:19

And people say, go look it

26:21

up in the dictionary as if

26:23

there is only one, when of

26:26

course, there are many, many published

26:28

by different publishers with different editors

26:30

and different philosophies. And

26:32

we should be able to ask who

26:34

wrote that, when was it published, because

26:37

also language changes, and so it might

26:39

not be up to date. And my

26:41

Shania Twain brain, I literally, cause

26:45

I was like, when you first started seeing this,

26:47

I was like, well, really a dictionary just is

26:49

like, it's like how it's spelled, but then it's

26:51

the description, like the

26:53

description of what the word means

26:55

that's so important and like

26:57

how it's supposed to be used. Exactly,

27:00

and that dictionaries are an

27:02

amazing resource. The people who

27:04

write them are highly trained.

27:07

They are also human beings with human

27:09

bias. And so we can think

27:12

about the ways in which historically,

27:14

for example, they defined marriage.

27:17

And now many dictionary editors

27:19

have revised that definition because

27:22

they're trying to capture the way

27:24

the word is being used. And

27:27

it's, people often go

27:29

to dictionaries to find out, what

27:31

does that word mean? What does it really

27:33

mean? Or they'll say, is it really a

27:35

word by which they use it in a

27:37

dictionary? And of course there are many words

27:40

that are words. A word is a

27:42

set of sounds that

27:44

you and I can use to communicate to

27:46

each other with a shared meaning. And if it's new,

27:48

it might not be in a dictionary yet, but

27:50

it's still a word. But so

27:52

people go to find quote unquote, the

27:54

answers. If you talk to dictionary

27:57

editors, and I actually am friends with dictionary editors, so

27:59

I get to talk. to them all the time,

28:01

they will say, we are just

28:03

trying to keep up with all of you. That

28:06

you keep changing the language, words mean

28:09

different things. We are tracking you all.

28:11

We're tracking the writing and the speech

28:13

that is being produced. And

28:15

then as something changes, we're trying to

28:17

update our dictionaries so that

28:20

we can keep up with the way

28:22

language is changing. And we can

28:24

take a word like peruse.

28:27

Is that a word that you use,

28:29

the verb peruse? Yes. So what does

28:31

it mean for you? Go like do

28:33

a light look about the thing. Okay,

28:36

love that. That is the way almost everyone

28:38

uses it. One or

28:40

two generations back, it actually

28:42

meant to read carefully or to

28:45

pour over. What? And

28:47

if you go into most dictionaries, the first

28:50

definition will be to read

28:52

carefully or to pour over. And

28:54

then for example, in the American

28:56

Heritage Dictionary, they have the second

28:58

definition and they preface it with

29:01

usage problem. And

29:03

then they have skim or

29:05

scan. My mind is blown.

29:15

Hey, it's Jonathan Van Ness. Americans

29:17

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29:19

State defends your freedom to live as

29:21

yourself and believe as you choose, so

29:24

long as you don't harm others. Core

29:27

freedoms like abortion rights, marriage

29:29

equality, public education, and even

29:31

American democracy itself, rest

29:34

upon the wall of separation between

29:36

church and state. Christian nationalists

29:38

are attacking these freedoms seeking to

29:40

force us all to live by

29:42

their narrow beliefs. Americans

29:45

United is fighting back. Freedom

29:48

without favor and equality

29:50

without exception. Learn more

29:53

about AU at au.org/curious.

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Taylor Brands. I

31:06

always used to refer

31:08

to things as like, she, she, she,

31:10

like, like a shampoo, like anything, like

31:13

anything could be a she. Then

31:15

I had some people tell me how like, really

31:17

it's a little bit like, it's

31:19

giving a little bit like patriarchal if you dig into it

31:21

a little deeper, because it's like, like, why can't it be

31:24

a he? Why isn't it funny if the shampoo is a

31:26

he? Why does it have to be a she? That's

31:28

like into this idea of like being

31:31

hysterical, being, you know, these like, it

31:33

just, there's misogyny in that. And I

31:35

don't want to be misogynistic. So I

31:38

sometimes it still slips out, but I like, I try

31:40

not to like gender inanimate

31:42

objects. And then another thing was, is

31:45

it like, and you mentioned AAV

31:47

or AAV earlier, I

31:49

think before I understood

31:51

like our history, like

31:53

a lot of things. And

31:56

I've been called out on this on tech talk, like lots

31:58

of times that like, you know, the

32:00

way that like white queer men, and then

32:03

I'm like, I'm not binary, but whatever sign,

32:05

um, will co-opt this language that was really

32:07

created by black women, but that has caused

32:09

me to like, have to do

32:12

work around myself. And I noticed that like,

32:14

I would kind of like code switch. Like I

32:16

would like talk differently if I was like with

32:18

this person or that person. And so then I

32:20

was like, Oh, maybe I don't really like this.

32:23

That actually kind of makes me feel cringy now

32:25

that I understand like more things. So it's like

32:27

our language does evolve with what we know. And

32:29

that's okay. But I think it can

32:31

trigger so much of this, like, am I a bad person?

32:33

Like, am I, like, it's just the

32:35

guilt and the shame. So even, I think it's such

32:37

an eye brain. It makes me want to cry, but

32:40

why do we, cause like, cause it did, it just

32:42

like totally touched my like shame about the way that

32:44

you come across like, and why does

32:46

this happen? I, again,

32:49

your openness to the

32:52

feedback about language is

32:55

inspiring and really important that

32:58

you're telling stories in which you're saying, you

33:00

know, and someone said this to me and

33:02

I rethought something about the way

33:04

I was speaking. And that

33:07

is exactly the interaction that I

33:09

hope we can have, which is that

33:13

we can be thoughtful speakers and

33:15

open to people saying, you know,

33:18

that language that you're used to using

33:21

is worth rethinking and that we

33:23

can be not defensive about that. The

33:25

other side of that is that we can

33:27

be generous listeners. And so when someone says

33:30

something that rubs us the wrong way,

33:32

we're like, uh, that we

33:34

give them the benefit of the doubt and say, now,

33:36

occasionally there are times where we don't give someone the

33:38

benefit of the doubt. We're like, I know you use

33:40

that language to harm, but that in a

33:42

lot of instances where we say, I don't

33:45

think that person meant harm and

33:47

I'm going to say something in a generous

33:49

way to say, you know,

33:51

here's how I heard that. Here's

33:54

what it felt like. But

33:57

The emotions run so high here, I Think

33:59

because. This is

34:01

about power. It's. Fundamentally,

34:04

their power is about the

34:06

power to say what is

34:08

acceptable and not acceptable was

34:10

harmful and not harmful. And

34:13

historically there have been some

34:15

groups. That. Have been socially

34:17

powerful and able to say this is the

34:19

right language and this is the wrong language

34:21

and everybody else has had to be very

34:24

careful about their language and we can think

34:26

of all the ways in which. Women

34:29

and Black. Speakers and have

34:31

had to be incredibly careful about

34:34

the words they use because the

34:36

consequences can be dire if you

34:38

use. The wrong words and one of the

34:40

things. That we're seeing in this movement that

34:42

people often called Political Correctness or Pcs. And

34:45

I know I can see this. but I'm

34:47

using scare quotes because people use that in

34:49

a whole range of ways. But what we're

34:51

seeing is that. Groups.

34:53

That have been historically marginalized.

34:57

Are. Getting the microphone and

34:59

are able to say.

35:01

That language. Is.

35:03

Offensive to us and we asking

35:06

you to use different language. And

35:08

sometimes he'll say to meet with this is new and

35:10

i'm like. Some other language

35:12

has been. Offensive for a long

35:14

time. It's just that people weren't

35:17

empowered. To. Get to say.

35:19

That. Language offensive. And

35:21

were at a moment where we

35:24

have more groups with microphones who

35:26

can say we're asking you to

35:28

rethink that uses and the key

35:30

is gonna be that for the

35:32

speakers who historically have been powerful.

35:35

Who. Haven't had to rethink their language because

35:37

they can say whatever they want, because

35:39

they. Are powerful. What I hope is

35:42

that they can adopt the attitude

35:44

jonathan that you've had which is to

35:46

listen when someone says i'm ask you

35:48

to rethink that. To. Be

35:51

open to that feedback and

35:53

say. Do I want to

35:55

use language that someone else is telling me

35:57

as offensive? Or. Is it worth.

36:00

rethinking. But I think the

36:02

emotions are high because what

36:04

I will have people say is, why do I

36:06

have to be so careful? And part of my

36:08

response is, you know, other speakers

36:11

have been careful the whole time.

36:14

I think generosity in the

36:16

space is really important and

36:18

giving people some grace. So

36:21

one of the ways I've found helpful to think about this

36:23

is that both intention

36:25

and reception matter. And

36:28

I think sometimes people want only one of them

36:30

to matter. They want to say, I didn't mean

36:32

it to be offensive, and therefore it doesn't

36:34

matter that you found it offensive. And

36:36

that's not the way language works. Or

36:39

people want to say, I heard that as

36:41

offensive. And so it doesn't matter if you

36:43

didn't mean it that way. It was

36:46

offensive and you're wrong. And they

36:48

both matter. And I think this is where we

36:50

can be generous, which is to recognize

36:52

people's intention. It does matter. But for

36:55

those of us as speakers, even if we

36:58

didn't intend it that way, to be open

37:00

to someone saying, well, this is how I heard it. And

37:02

then, and I think this is what you're describing, making

37:05

a decision of, okay,

37:09

I hear you and actually I think it's worth

37:11

changing. Or I hear you, but

37:13

actually I really don't mean it that way.

37:15

And I've appropriated it. And I'm

37:17

using it in a positive sense. And I'm going to

37:19

own that. But that we take

37:21

both of those seriously as we make

37:24

decisions. Decisions with lots

37:26

of data and input

37:29

about how to achieve

37:31

what we want to achieve. I didn't realize that this was

37:33

going to kind of turn into therapy, but I'm just going

37:35

to do a full send. Because

37:38

there's also a large history around, we

37:41

talked about pronouns as being gendered, but then

37:43

there's also a lot of perception on how

37:46

you come across with the language that you

37:48

speak. You're femme, you're butch, you're this. And

37:51

I wrote down earlier like, like,

37:53

I say like so much, I

37:55

can't help it. I've tried to,

37:57

I don't know I

38:00

don't know if it's my ADHD and I don't say that

38:02

lightly because I do have ADHD. I

38:05

don't know if it's the processor. I don't know if it's

38:07

a coping thing.

38:11

I try to slow down. I try not to say it,

38:13

but I kind of can't help it. And

38:17

then there's just the clearness of my voice. I've

38:20

never been able to... I do

38:22

jokes about how I can't sound straight. And

38:24

my impression of a straight

38:26

man is so funny because it's not

38:28

in my register. I

38:31

wish I could find it, but I just can't.

38:35

There's a field of study

38:37

here that is really important

38:39

around language and gender and

38:41

language and sexuality, around people's

38:43

expectations based on people's

38:46

gender and people's sexuality and what

38:48

it means to break those expectations.

38:52

So you're absolutely right

38:54

that when we break those expectations,

38:56

and there was a lot of work

38:58

early on that worked within the male-female

39:01

binary on this, sort of assuming heterosexuality and

39:03

that sort of thing, but that

39:06

women's speech was often read as

39:08

not powerful and not

39:11

assertive. And that was a way to be feminine.

39:13

And so there was this movement called

39:15

assertiveness training where women were trained to,

39:17

quote unquote, speak like straight men. And

39:21

when women do that, it goes

39:23

really badly. And

39:26

we know the B word that people

39:28

use when women speak

39:30

that way, that we

39:33

are all navigating this

39:35

complex web of expectations

39:38

about how different

39:40

groups speak, which are based on

39:42

stereotypes and all those sorts of things.

39:45

And we're navigating our way through that

39:47

as we're making decisions about how to get

39:49

done what we're trying to get done. Like

39:51

we're all trying to get stuff done. And

39:54

the question is how, with this audience,

39:56

given the expectations that I'm managing with

39:59

my identity, How am

40:01

I going to get that done? And

40:03

it is complicated terrain. And I was thinking

40:06

about that also as you

40:08

were talking about the ways in which some

40:10

words are getting appropriated or identity

40:12

terms shift. This is

40:15

really complicated territory. And I will hear

40:17

people say, you know,

40:19

I hear your message, Ann, that I should

40:21

be sensitive and thoughtful and I should listen

40:23

to the feedback and I want to be,

40:25

but I feel like things change

40:28

really fast. And, you

40:30

know, I was supposed to use this term and now I'm

40:32

supposed to use this term and how am I supposed to

40:34

keep up? And I

40:36

think you and I can both get that, that there

40:38

are some parts of the language that move fast. And

40:41

this is where I think we're

40:43

all in it together is to say, we

40:46

try to keep up. I actually don't think

40:48

it's too much to ask. If

40:50

you care about being respectful, you try to keep up.

40:53

But it also for me is about the generosity

40:56

is to recognize that it is fast

40:58

moving and complicated territory and people may

41:00

not always get it right when

41:03

they are well intentioned and

41:05

to give people again, give them some

41:07

grace. Yes, clean. It's the grace. It's

41:10

hard to come by these days. It is. It

41:12

is. Okay. Also,

41:15

what about swear words? We're

41:17

coming into home base. What

41:22

is the history of swear words? What does it mean? How

41:24

do they evolve? Oh, swear words, such an

41:26

interesting category of words. So the first thing to

41:28

say is that I'm going to call them taboo

41:31

words to start with because there are lots of

41:33

them. Swear words

41:35

are one category of them, but

41:37

we have taboo words around taboo

41:40

topics for many people. So death,

41:44

sex, particular body parts that

41:46

are seen as intimate. There are words that

41:48

people see as taboo. There

41:51

are epithets, the horrible things that

41:53

we say about other people, which

41:55

are taboo words. And then

41:57

there are swear words, curse words. Well,

42:01

I think one important message is

42:03

that all of these words fundamentally

42:05

show the power of language. That

42:08

there are words that we see as

42:10

so powerful that we either

42:13

don't say them or we're very, very

42:15

careful about saying them because

42:17

we know that they can be explosive.

42:20

So whenever somebody says, it's just words, I'm

42:23

like, it's almost never just

42:25

words. Words are really powerful. They're

42:28

part of our identity. They're how we respect

42:30

other people. There's a lot going on in

42:32

this space. But what's also

42:34

interesting about taboo words or swear words

42:37

is that in the name taboo words, there's

42:39

a suggestion that we can't say them. But of

42:42

course, we do say them a lot.

42:47

That when you do studies of how often people

42:49

swear, and it depends on what you count as

42:51

a swear word, but people

42:54

swear a good amount because swearing, it

42:57

can be offensive and a lot of people just

42:59

stop there. But it can also be funny. It

43:03

can be intimate. And I think

43:05

about this because, for example, when I'm at

43:07

work, I don't swear

43:09

for the most part. It's not

43:11

the identity I have at work. Yeah, I don't either. I

43:14

keep it pretty... Yeah. I'm

43:18

kidding, Ann. All I do is fucking

43:20

cuss everywhere I go. I'm like, I

43:22

got to get it the fuck together. I

43:25

want to be more like you, honey. Well,

43:27

no. I mean, it's just that in

43:30

the environment I work in, in the university, it's not the

43:32

way that I perform my identity in

43:34

that space. So for me,

43:36

it's a signal of intimacy with

43:38

my friends and with my family

43:40

that I can let that guard

43:42

down and I can curse.

43:45

And I actually remember I was teaching this

43:47

in a graduate course at one point and

43:49

one of my graduate students said, I really

43:51

remember when I came to graduate school, I

43:53

was being super careful and I never curse

43:55

because actually I do curse a lot and

43:57

I didn't. And then I remember when I

43:59

felt... But I knew people well enough

44:02

that I could stop kind of performing

44:04

graduate student and I could be myself

44:06

and I could curse where I crossed

44:08

the cursing line. But I

44:11

thought it was just great. What

44:13

did you think about that trend? Did you see that trend

44:15

when the parents were letting their little kid go into the

44:17

bathroom with the phone and they'd be like, you're allowed to

44:19

cuss and say whatever words you went to in this bathroom

44:21

only. Just come out when you're, did

44:23

you see that? It was like everywhere on the internet. I

44:26

did not. But on the internet a couple months

44:28

ago, if you put on

44:30

TikTok, kids cussing, it probably

44:32

will come up. But these little toddlers would

44:35

be like, okay. And then the parent would leave the

44:37

bathroom with the phones recording. The kid would be like,

44:39

shit, fuck, bitch, damn, goddamn it.

44:42

Fuck, shit, fuck, goddamn.

44:46

These kids were hilarious. But

44:48

what is that? Does that

44:50

just mean kids are so perceptive

44:52

and get it so young? So

44:55

that's one thing. Yes, exactly. That they

44:57

sense that these words are powerful and

45:00

they pick up on them and then

45:02

they will say them and they get a

45:04

response from adults. So the kid says it and

45:06

they get a very strong response from adults. The

45:09

other thing that it's worth saying about swear

45:11

words is that they

45:13

seem to, we have a physical

45:15

response to them and

45:18

they actually seem to do some work. So they've

45:20

done these studies where they ask

45:22

college undergraduates because that's who they test

45:24

to hold their arm in a bucket

45:26

of ice water. And

45:29

the students who are allowed to curse actually

45:31

can keep their arm in the ice

45:34

water longer that it seems to release

45:36

the pain in some way. And we

45:38

can all imagine that. If

45:40

you stub your toe or something, what comes

45:42

out of your mouth at that moment? It

45:46

is usually not the word the. Yeah.

45:49

It's like, oh, that was, yeah, no, it's yeah, you're

45:51

definitely cussing. My Shania

45:53

brain took us all over the

45:55

place on this episode, which I think was part of the magic,

45:58

but really what we've talked about. is like

46:02

the policing of language

46:04

a little bit. Who gets to say what, how

46:06

does language evolve? So

46:08

I love the idea of

46:11

like a caretaker of language rather than a

46:13

gatekeeper of language. So how can we be

46:15

caretakers and not gatekeepers

46:18

with our language? I really appreciate

46:20

you bringing that up because it is

46:22

one of the fundamental messages I want

46:25

to get across, which is

46:27

to redefine what it means to

46:29

care deeply about language. Because

46:32

I think what has happened is

46:34

that there's a sense

46:36

that the people who care deeply are the

46:38

people who police other people's language and who

46:40

have a sense that there's one right way

46:42

and lots of wrong ways and that

46:46

the best caretakers are the people who

46:48

are enforcing those rules. And

46:50

I don't think that's right. I think

46:52

that caretaking of the language

46:54

is about understanding how it works. And

46:57

a couple of important things to understand is that

46:59

the language is always changing. It

47:01

is just a natural part of language. And

47:04

a second important thing to understand is that

47:07

the diversity of language is part of the

47:09

diversity of us. That

47:11

we are a diverse community of speakers

47:13

and we are going to speak in

47:15

a diverse set of ways. And

47:17

that is a rich and wonderful thing. And

47:20

we need to embrace that diversity. And

47:23

the third thing is that what

47:25

we learned is right and wrong

47:28

is actually not nearly as stable as

47:30

we think it is. And so to be

47:33

a caretaker is to understand those things and

47:36

then to observe the language around you

47:38

and think, what is

47:40

happening and how can I

47:42

use the language effectively? So one of the analogies I

47:44

came up with as I was writing the book, which

47:47

was really fun, was could we

47:49

adopt, first of all, the mindset

47:51

of a birder or a

47:53

birdwatcher, which is that

47:55

we see and hear things that are novel to

47:58

us. Maybe it's new. Maybe it's from a. variety

48:00

of the language and that

48:02

our response is to be curious, is

48:05

to say what is going

48:07

on over there? Where does that come from?

48:09

How does it work? Who says that? As

48:12

opposed to what I think is sometimes people's

48:14

reaction which is kill it, which is not

48:17

a very good attitude for a birder. So

48:20

there's that way of coming at

48:22

language and then to realize

48:24

that the goal is actually to

48:26

be effective speakers and writers. And

48:30

that we are speakers and writers in a

48:32

whole range of context. And

48:34

that one way of speaking and

48:36

writing is not going to be effective in all

48:38

those contexts. So to think about rather

48:41

than what's right and what's wrong, that

48:43

we do much better to think about

48:45

in this context with this audience given

48:48

my purpose, what is

48:51

the most effective way to use the language?

48:53

And that is going to vary

48:55

depending on all of those factors. And

48:57

that is being an informed,

49:00

careful, engaged speaker and writer

49:02

of the language. And really

49:05

it's like when I was saying like sometimes

49:07

I get feedback where it's like too strong.

49:09

It's like it's like it's giving me Goldilocks.

49:12

Like not too strong, not

49:14

too like soft,

49:16

like just kind of learning

49:19

how to be an arbiter of

49:21

the language in the way that we... that's

49:23

like most effective. Literally what you said.

49:25

It's efficacious language, hunty. And it means

49:27

that when we do it that way, and

49:30

this is of course the subtitle book,

49:32

first of all it's more fun because

49:34

we get to be curious. And

49:36

it is also kinder. It is

49:38

a more generous way to

49:41

approach other people and their

49:43

language. Yeah, I know. I

49:45

feel like that actually that was such a strong end.

49:47

And I think where language is going next is going

49:49

to be in our part two about like our eras

49:51

tour. Yeah, I mean that's that's giving eras tour. I

49:53

love you so hard not to like go right into

49:55

the L word on our first meeting, but like Ann,

49:57

it's not your fault. They have such a...

50:00

and hit me hard. Well, you

50:02

ask, your questions are

50:04

so spot on. That was

50:06

a gorgeous place to end, but then I keep thinking

50:08

of one more, but maybe this will be the last

50:10

one, but we'll see based off of your response. The

50:14

Tortured Poets Department, Taylor Swift,

50:17

linguist like, honey,

50:19

like she's giving us linguistics. Have

50:21

you listened to it? I

50:24

have not. So this will not be the best

50:26

place to end, but I'm going to go listen to it. I'll

50:29

tell you something right now. I'd

50:31

rather burn my whole life down

50:33

than listen to one more second

50:35

of all your bitch in the

50:37

morning. That's like, it's

50:39

one of my favorite lyrics from this album. I'm

50:41

sorry. I don't sing like her.

50:44

Um, you don't want to hear me sing at all

50:46

ever. And you got to like

50:48

get into some, the Tortured Poets Department. I just

50:50

think as a linguist you

50:52

and also Ariana Grande, I just feel like

50:54

both of these artists would

50:57

really, you would love how

50:59

they are using linguistics up in their music.

51:01

It is so fucking

51:04

genius. I can't stand it. And I know

51:06

this about both of them and I have been a little

51:09

distracted. Why? Because

51:11

you're just like a Dean of like a

51:13

major college in the middle of like a

51:15

gigantic political upheaval that we haven't seen since

51:17

like the seventies or something. I

51:19

can hardly wait to go do that. So

51:22

I'm going to do that this weekend. With

51:24

like a little bath soak. With a little

51:27

bath soak with some Tortured Poets Department. That's

51:29

what I'm going to do as I take

51:31

a long bath. And also that'll be good

51:33

for you to become a Swifty in preparation

51:35

for our next interview because then you'll really

51:37

vibe with like the eras, like the

51:40

eras, um, like analogy or metaphor. This

51:42

will make my niece very happy because

51:44

she's a total Swifty and she has

51:46

been wanting me to get on board

51:48

here and I'm absolutely willing to get

51:50

on board. I just haven't had time

51:52

to get on board. So I'm going

51:54

to make it. We got

51:56

to get, yeah, I've got to clear a little space of time for

51:58

Taylor. I know that you. do have your

52:01

hands, like supporting the community

52:03

through it. Come

52:05

on. And well, we got to have you back for part

52:07

two. We're going on a history tour and thank you so

52:10

much for coming on, getting curious. We appreciate you so much.

52:12

Oh, thank you. This was such

52:15

fun. If you were as riveted as

52:17

I was in that episode, please

52:19

get Ann's book. It is so

52:22

fascinating. It's

52:24

available wherever you get your books. Again, it's

52:26

called Says Who? A Kinder, Funner Usage Guide

52:28

for Everyone Who Cares About Words. You

52:31

guys get the book, Support Ann's Work. We're

52:33

obsessed. Did

52:35

we learn how I can be more effective with language?

52:39

Yes. And no. Because

52:42

I didn't stop talking so much and we're definitely going to

52:44

have to have Ann come back for a second episode. It

52:46

wasn't because she didn't answer it effectively. It's because I

52:49

was so excited by everything that she said. I didn't let

52:51

her finish like half the questions.

52:54

But I do think I a little

52:56

bit have learned how to be more effective with language.

53:00

And I think this is the other thing. How

53:03

I've become less effective with

53:05

language and why I've gotten more scared of

53:07

language, I think, is because when

53:09

our language is criticized, it can

53:12

be so personal and that

53:14

can be tough and painful and it touches the shame and

53:18

the guilt. So I thought that was really interesting, but

53:20

there's a lot more that I found interesting. The

53:23

idea of being a caretaker of language

53:25

versus a gatekeeper of language, I thought

53:27

was interesting. Also because, and

53:30

I think Ann's work so much speaks to

53:33

respecting someone's POV and

53:36

being a generous listener, as she

53:38

was saying. I thought

53:40

that was fascinating that when you go

53:42

back hundreds of years, there's

53:44

evidence of them being a singular,

53:47

all the way back to Shakespeare times. And then

53:50

every kid who learns language reinvents it with

53:52

the peruse, that

53:56

was everything. And also What's

53:58

going on in our brains. These are language

54:01

also made. Tic toc an Instagram

54:03

algorithm recently started showing me like.

54:06

What I now know is a Spanish

54:08

linguists because they're like. Don't.

54:10

Have order your copy like this. Order it like

54:12

this to sound like more like in the the

54:14

Spanish speaker to die within like played out to

54:17

narrow on. Cafe is like can I have a

54:19

coffee it's within. This guy was like that sounds

54:21

super like how and in this weekend Christmas Aids

54:23

is that they would. Sell. Me on

54:25

cafe for for war or like. Cafe.

54:27

Pop of or and it's just like more

54:29

like natural sounding So of a while we

54:31

love you so much these recommend getting curious

54:33

as to go take a shower. I'm. And

54:36

ghosts in a tween and go in for gone of he

54:38

will have. You been

54:40

listening to? Getting Serious with Me. It's on

54:43

at the Center, Learn more about this week's

54:45

guess in their areas ecstasy and the episode

54:47

description and follow us on Instagram. As serious

54:49

as a Vn you can touch with your

54:51

every Wednesday and make sure to tune in

54:54

every Monday for episodes. A Pretty serious it's

54:56

we love with our podcast on Often Beauty

54:58

get into it. Still can't get enough. Any

55:00

want to go little spicy with us? He

55:02

can subscribe to Access Serious an Apple podcast

55:04

for commercial free listening and or. Subscription only

55:07

So as Cbn who were talking sex

55:09

really says had a really different ever

55:11

thought my mind that was our theme

55:13

Music is Free Bike Lane at think

55:15

you so much to her for letting

55:17

us use that are editor an engineer

55:19

as Nathaniel with we're Getting series of

55:22

Free By Me Christmas Were and Julie

55:24

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