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1:44

Welcome back to Girlboss Radio. I'm your host

1:46

Avery. This is the last episode of the

1:48

season, but we will be back very soon

1:50

after a short summer hiatus. I

1:52

couldn't think of a more perfect guest to

1:54

end things off with than multi-hyphenate Cammie Crawford.

1:57

She has quite the CV. She's a producer

1:59

and creator. host of MTV's Cap-ish,

2:01

Are You The One? and X on

2:03

the Beach, a sports illustrated swimsuit model,

2:06

and the former Miss Teen USA 2010.

2:08

She also has her very own relationship

2:10

advice podcast called Relationship. Cammie originally wanted

2:12

to be a dermatologist but quickly pivoted

2:15

to communications after taking biology in college

2:17

and hating it. She did local red

2:19

carpet interviews and sent her rail to

2:22

different news stations. She even moved to

2:24

New York and modeled while trying to

2:26

land TV hosting work that never came.

2:29

Things changed in 2018 when someone in

2:31

casting for Cap-ish reached out to see if

2:33

she'd be interested in guest hosting with Nev

2:35

Shulman. She was a natural and landed a

2:38

spot as a full-time host. And today I'm

2:40

joined with Liz, Girlboss's general manager, to chat

2:42

about the episode. We were chatting

2:45

a little bit before we started recording so I wanted

2:47

to hit the record button and get your thoughts on

2:49

this conversation because it seems like it really affected you

2:51

emotionally after it was over. Yeah,

2:53

so I've never had this experience before. Now

2:56

we're wrapping up season three and this

2:58

is the first conversation that I left and

3:00

had a bit of a breakdown. Afterwards

3:02

I was moved during the

3:04

conversation and felt so inspired but

3:06

then also found myself reflecting on

3:08

a lot of my own career

3:10

decisions as of late. And

3:13

Cammie really helped me.

3:15

I'm kind of struggling even to say

3:18

it now to realize that I've been

3:20

underselling myself and almost not believing in

3:22

myself as much as I have in

3:24

the past. There was an energy about

3:27

her that I recognized that I've lost

3:29

along the way. I don't know when

3:31

I lost it but I had a

3:33

really emotional moment afterwards. I cried for

3:35

an hour to my partner and was

3:37

like, I need to get my power

3:39

back. I've lost it. I do

3:41

want to say that the title of this episode

3:44

is probably going to be something along the lines

3:46

of operating from a baseline of delusion. And that's

3:48

a phrase that's directly a quote from Cammie. That's

3:50

what she said about her career. She's like, I

3:52

always like to operate from a baseline of delusion.

3:54

And maybe when you say you've lost your power,

3:56

you've been underselling yourself, you've stopped doing that. You've

3:58

stopped believing it that you're wild. eldest and biggest

4:00

dreams and goals are possible. Cami wanted to go to Los

4:02

Angeles. She wanted to go straight to the top. And her

4:05

dad said, are you sure that you don't want to just

4:07

try out some local news stations in Ohio first? And Cami

4:09

was like, f that. No, I don't want to be in

4:11

Ohio. I want to be where E-Network is. I want to

4:13

be where MTV is. I want to put myself in front

4:16

of those opportunities. And I think it's a great reminder to

4:18

not make yourself small. Well, that's the

4:20

thing. Yeah, I live in a small town

4:22

north of Toronto. And I live here because

4:24

I was heavily influenced by my parents to

4:26

live here. And it hit something in me.

4:28

I'm in the process of selling my house

4:31

and figuring out where I'm going to

4:33

be going next. And yeah, I was really overwhelmed

4:35

by how Cami has

4:38

been continuously putting herself in front of opportunities

4:40

that she wants for herself. And I know

4:42

that I'm not doing that. I'm almost like

4:44

actively not doing that. And I just was

4:46

like, how do I do that? Why am

4:49

I not doing that? And I was really,

4:51

I had like a really emotional post

4:53

conversation experience. And what I

4:55

loved about the conversation is that it was

4:57

inspiring. I wasn't sad. I

5:00

was feeling so moved and so energized

5:02

that I was overwhelmed by emotion

5:04

as soon as the conversation ended. Yeah,

5:06

it's interesting that you bring up how your parents kind

5:08

of encouraged you to buy a house at the same

5:11

time that you grow up. And I think parents mean

5:13

well, but they always want the best for their children.

5:15

But sometimes they're like protecting them from bad things happening.

5:17

But when they're protecting them, they also end up limiting

5:19

their scope and what they could see for themselves. When

5:22

I was in high school and I was looking at

5:24

what I would be doing for university, I jumped really

5:26

small. I just wanted to go to a school locally.

5:28

I'll commute to university and keep living at home because

5:30

again, my parents wanted to protect me from taking on

5:32

extra debt. And that's really, really good. I'm really grateful.

5:35

But what that also did is it immediately before

5:37

I even turned 18 limited my possibilities instead of

5:39

thinking, oh, I could go into this industrial design

5:41

program or get this business degree. It was like,

5:44

what are the options that are within a 30 minute

5:46

train ride? And that immediately taught me that you don't

5:48

dream big, you don't go after things. Luckily I course

5:50

corrected at some point. I actually dropped out of university.

5:53

I don't have a university degree. So that's how that

5:55

worked out for me in terms of dreaming small. And

5:57

now I have a really great career that I'm grateful

5:59

for. but I still think it's small. I still tell

6:01

myself, no, I could never move to New York. I could

6:03

never do this or that thing. I think it's so much

6:05

easier to actually think small than think big a lot of

6:07

the time. Yeah, and I think it's so

6:10

easy to allow people that you love and

6:12

care about, that you know that love and care

6:14

about you, to influence you in ways that could

6:16

genuinely, and I'm not saying this lately, ruin your

6:18

life. And they're not coming from that perspective.

6:20

They don't want to ruin your life, but

6:22

they're not thinking about the things that you

6:24

want, only you know in your heart and in

6:26

your soul what it is that you want and

6:29

what you're working towards. And I feel like I've

6:31

been continuously taking advice over the last couple

6:33

of years from people that aren't actually thinking about

6:35

what it is that I want. And I think

6:37

I'm getting further and further away from that because

6:39

I've been prioritizing the advice and thoughts and

6:42

perspectives of people that I know care

6:44

a lot about me, but don't necessarily, I

6:46

haven't been letting them in on my dreams and

6:48

goals and aspirations. Well, this

6:50

is the last intro of season three. So I'm

6:52

excited when we pick up on season four to

6:55

see if you've made any big moves and how

6:57

you reflect on this conversation. When we come back.

7:00

I'm telling you, this was a life-changing conversation for

7:02

me. I think with that, let's get into the episode.

7:07

Kami, welcome to Girl Boss Radio. I

7:09

am very excited to finally meet you.

7:12

Thank you. I'm so excited to meet you. And I

7:14

can't believe that we haven't met already considering how

7:16

many people we have in common. I

7:19

know we were just talking. We have so

7:21

many mutual connections. So you just got back

7:23

from swim week and you were

7:26

just in my feet over and over and over

7:28

again because you were hanging out with all my

7:30

friends. I love that. I love that. Then you

7:32

know that we were here. You know, we're on the

7:34

same page then. I'm just looking forward

7:36

to this conversation because I think it's just

7:39

going to be a great vibe. And as

7:41

someone who's a big fan of MTV reality

7:43

TV shows, like I was raised on T-Mom

7:45

and Catfish. I'm just like really excited

7:47

just to dive in and learn a little bit more

7:49

about your career journey behind what we

7:51

see you doing, which is a

7:53

lot. Yes. Oh my God, I love that. I

7:56

grew up on MTV too. I feel like I just grew up on television

7:58

in general. And for

8:00

someone who works in a lot of TV, I still

8:02

love watching a lot of TV, so I'm a

8:05

TV girl. So what are you watching right now? Oh,

8:07

Bridgerton, of course. Of course,

8:10

naturally. I'm very much into the love

8:12

islands. I'm into The Bachelors. I'm into

8:14

all of those things. I'm not a

8:16

big Bravo girlie, unfortunately, because I know

8:18

everybody loves it. It's just so many

8:21

characters, too many plot lines. I can't

8:23

keep up. Yeah. Yeah.

8:26

For me, I was obsessed and always, I still

8:28

am with The Challenge. And Love is Blind,

8:30

those are my two shows I have to watch.

8:33

Love, Love is Blind, that's one

8:35

of my faves. The Ultimatum, all those.

8:37

Yeah, those characters I can get into.

8:40

We're going to talk about dating a little bit later. I

8:42

got to a point in my dating journey where I was like

8:44

the only way I'm going to meet someone is if I happen

8:46

to get cast to be on Love is Blind. That was

8:48

like the only option. Stop. I have

8:50

a hard time believing that. Yeah. So

8:53

you have a really impressive journey. You won Miss

8:55

Teen USA in 2010, and

8:57

now you are a podcast host, model, co-host of

9:00

MTV's Catfish. And then also it seems like you're

9:02

doing a million other things. I don't want to

9:04

come off as corny or cheesy by saying like,

9:06

how do you do it all? But like really,

9:09

how do you do it all? Do

9:12

you know what's crazy? So many people ask

9:14

me that, and I feel like if I

9:16

take the time to actually think about it,

9:18

I will just burst into tears from both

9:20

pride for how much I've been able to

9:23

accomplish, but also exhaustion because

9:25

it is very, very tiring. I've always

9:27

been a person who I'm

9:29

not happy if I'm not doing a million

9:32

things at once. I feel like productivity

9:34

wise, I just work better when I

9:37

have a lot going on. And

9:39

when things are like slower, which you know, everybody has

9:41

a slow season, I have

9:43

too much time to think about things that

9:46

don't actually concern me or things that are

9:48

beyond my control. And I guess I just

9:50

keep going. I don't know. I just don't

9:52

stop to think about it. I just keep

9:54

it moving, keep it pushing. And have you always

9:57

been like this? What was your first job when you were

9:59

a kid? My first job, yes, I've

10:01

always been like this, first of all. Yes, I

10:04

have. My first, and it exemplified

10:06

by my first job, so my first

10:08

job was at American Apparel. I was

10:10

a sales associate, and I was 15

10:13

years old, and

10:15

in the state of Maryland where I'm from,

10:17

it was actually not legal for me to

10:19

work, but I lied in my

10:21

job interview because my best friend at the

10:23

time, she was old enough to work there, I

10:26

really wanted to work there, and I just really

10:28

wanted to work. I just wanted to start

10:30

working. I've been to college, I've got my

10:32

degree, but I have always been a doer.

10:35

I need to do things. I just wanted to have a

10:37

job, I wanted to work, I wanted to make some money,

10:40

and so I lied in my job application. I

10:42

got the job, and the first

10:44

American Apparel that was built in my

10:46

area, I helped build the shelves in

10:48

it. I was involved, very much

10:50

so, and I loved it, but my parents made

10:52

me quit because I needed to take SAT prep,

10:56

and driver's ed, I think. I

11:00

was devastated because I loved it, and I loved

11:02

the free clothes too. There's something to

11:04

be said about people that spent their first

11:06

bout in their career in retail. It's like

11:08

service, anything service-based. I spent the first five

11:11

years of my career, not my career, but

11:13

working. I worked in a small retail store,

11:15

and the things that I learned that I

11:17

still employ and my job as an entrepreneur

11:20

today, it's just wild. Yes. Oh,

11:23

they used to make us put each hanger

11:25

a pinky finger width apart, and you would

11:27

actually have to measure it out at the

11:29

end of every day. It was wild, but

11:31

I just loved it because it made me

11:33

feel like a grown-up who was contributing to

11:35

society, even though I was making eight bucks

11:37

an hour, but that was good back then.

11:39

That was good back then. I was about to say, I used

11:41

to work for 625. That's where I

11:43

started. See? It was really good.

11:45

It was really good. So when I asked you,

11:47

how do you do it all, you said that you could

11:49

either cry from exhaustion or just from

11:51

realizing how far you've come. How do

11:54

you think 15-year-old Cammy would feel about

11:56

where you are now? Oh

11:58

my God. I mean... I was

12:00

pretty intense at 15. I was

12:02

pretty intense at 20. I thought I was

12:04

supposed to be like the next Oprah at

12:07

22. So 15-year-old Kim would probably be like,

12:09

a girl, what else? Like, what's next? Like,

12:11

what else are we doing? That's it? But

12:13

no, I think I would be very, very

12:15

proud of myself for how

12:17

much I have done and just being

12:19

a self-sufficient Black

12:22

woman in this industry

12:24

who is never compromising

12:26

her integrity for the opportunities

12:28

that she's gotten. We've heard

12:30

so many horror stories over

12:32

the years, and I just

12:34

feel very proud to have

12:36

built what I have just

12:39

off of the basis of me being myself. I

12:41

didn't have to call anybody's eyes out to get

12:43

there. I just, it just was

12:45

me. And I let my light

12:47

shine and let my personality and

12:49

stance and morals be known, and

12:51

I've never had to compromise them.

12:54

Yeah. You wanted to be a

12:56

dermatologist, and you've now moved into

12:58

this media space. You're hosting this

13:00

infamous TV show. How did you

13:02

get the opportunity to join Catfish?

13:05

Well, so obviously the dermatology thing

13:07

didn't work out. That's

13:10

what I originally went to college for. I

13:12

was pre-med and on that track, and then

13:14

I was like, ah, this is not going

13:16

to work out. Switched Communications started working as

13:18

a TV host right away at 19, and

13:21

I was doing smaller segments on

13:23

local news channels. I was living in New

13:25

York. I would take a car to New Haven,

13:27

Connecticut, rent a car, drive it at like 4

13:30

a.m. getting ready and getting to set an

13:32

hour and a half away just to do

13:34

a five-minute segment and then take a nap in

13:36

the parking lot and then drive all the

13:38

way back. So I was doing that for a

13:40

while in addition to building my social

13:42

media, same as by

13:44

accident. People were wanting to know what

13:47

I was wearing, and I was talking

13:49

about it. Then I booked

13:51

a show with People magazine for a little

13:53

bit, which was really fun. It was like

13:55

a lifestyle beauty fashion show

13:57

and just posting my work,

14:00

not knowing who was following, not

14:02

knowing who was looking, hoping that

14:04

if I kept doing the work,

14:06

somebody was going to notice. And

14:08

I ended up getting an email

14:10

seven years later from the casting

14:12

department at Catfish's production company, just

14:14

being like, Hey, I've been following

14:16

you. I also didn't realize that

14:18

there were two media executives at

14:20

MTV that were following me as

14:22

well, because I say this all

14:24

the time, but like, if you're

14:26

in TV, the people who are

14:28

making the decisions don't have, I'm

14:30

a person who makes decisions at MTV in

14:33

their bio on Instagram. They don't,

14:35

they have a picture of like

14:37

a flower as their profile picture.

14:39

Like they're not really posting their

14:41

jobs like that. So you're not going

14:43

to see them for the most part, they

14:45

kind of fly under the radar and like

14:47

watch you. And so she was just like,

14:49

Hey, like I've been following you since your

14:52

pageant days. And I got

14:54

your profile recently and I was just looking at

14:56

everything you're doing. And we'd love to have you

14:58

come on and guest co-host two episodes of Catfish.

15:00

And I was like, this is not real. This

15:02

does not happen. I've been doing this for seven

15:05

years till this point. This does not happen, but

15:07

it did. And they

15:09

asked me to literally come out that

15:11

week or the week after, I believe.

15:13

And it just so happened that that

15:15

same week I was planning my move

15:17

to LA because things in New York

15:19

had just gotten really stagnant. And like

15:21

I said, I'm a person that I need to be doing

15:23

things. And I was just at a point where I

15:25

was having my quarter century life crisis. And

15:27

I was like, this is it. I'm

15:30

25. I'm not Oprah yet. I

15:32

guess all I can do now is either move to

15:34

LA or I can quit. And

15:36

those were like the options that I was weighing. And I

15:38

chose to move to LA and it

15:41

was the best decision of my life.

15:43

I literally left to film that catfish

15:45

episode, I believe on a Wednesday, came

15:47

back on Sunday on Monday morning, my

15:50

movers were at my apartment taking my stuff

15:52

to LA. Wow. Okay. We

15:54

had a conversation, I think it was

15:57

season one or two with Liv Perez

15:59

and And we talked about whether you

16:01

need to live in a big city to be

16:03

successful. And it's interesting because as you're

16:05

talking about this, it's bringing up that conversation for me.

16:08

For folks that are listening and they're like, okay, do I need

16:10

to move to LA then? If things are feeling a little bit

16:12

stagnant for me, like, is this something that's needed to accelerate your

16:14

career and move it to the next level or? This

16:17

is what I do. Okay. So don't

16:19

do what I do if it doesn't work for you. But

16:22

I like to, it's not even

16:24

that I like to, I just

16:26

automatically operate from a certain baseline

16:28

of delusion. And everything that

16:30

comes after that is like, see, I knew I

16:32

could do it. So I

16:34

told myself that I

16:37

could do anything for a year. I was like,

16:39

you can do anything for a year. I was

16:41

in a position of being able to sustain

16:44

myself to do a move in LA. I had

16:46

worked up my social media enough that I had

16:48

a moving company that would move me for free

16:50

if I just posted about it. And so I

16:52

was like, okay, great. And then while I was

16:54

also working as a TVO, so I was modeling

16:56

full time. So I was collecting all that money

16:58

to put towards my reels and my head shots

17:00

and things like that. But also

17:02

now to pay rent in a new

17:05

city and new place. I wouldn't say

17:07

necessarily that it's something that you have to

17:09

do, but for where my delusion was telling

17:11

me that I was going, I

17:13

was going to be on e-news and I needed

17:15

to be in LA to be on e-news. So

17:17

I think not necessarily that you need to be

17:19

in a big city to do it, but

17:22

if you're gonna do it, you need to put yourself

17:24

in front of it. That was a part

17:26

of that for me. So I was like, literally,

17:28

the only thing that I had to base my

17:30

LA move off of was New York is feeling

17:32

a little stagnant. E-news is in LA. And

17:35

from what I could see in the email that

17:37

the Catfish production people sent me, their offices were

17:39

based in LA too. So I was like, okay,

17:41

this is happening for me. I need to be

17:44

in LA. That was it. I didn't

17:46

have a job set up in LA. I didn't

17:48

have, I have some family out

17:50

here, but I didn't have anything

17:52

concrete in LA whatsoever. But

17:54

I had hope. I had a dream. And

17:56

I was like, this is what I'm gonna

17:59

do. I did it, but

18:01

I do remember my dad telling

18:03

me before I had made the move to

18:05

LA, he was just like, why don't you

18:07

get on a local news station and try

18:09

it out there first? Why do you have

18:11

to do this huge jump to LA? And

18:14

I was like, fuck

18:16

that. I was like, no,

18:18

I'm going. I was like, what? Why would

18:20

I go from living in New York City

18:22

to going back to Ohio to then get

18:24

to LA? No, I'm going straight to LA.

18:26

And if it doesn't work out, then it

18:28

doesn't work out. I can always come back

18:30

to New York, but like, we're not thinking

18:33

local, we're thinking big. And that's what

18:35

I did. So I'm not saying

18:37

it will work for everyone, but it

18:40

worked for me. And I feel like

18:42

if you have that level of drive

18:44

and commitment and consistency, it can definitely

18:46

work for you. You know

18:48

what, it lines up with the conversations we've

18:51

had even around manifestation. So we had Roxie

18:53

Nafusi on the podcast of the first season.

18:55

And I went in thinking, I cannot believe

18:57

we're speaking to this woman about this garbage.

18:59

I just was like, there's no fucking way

19:01

I'm going to manifest a man in a

19:03

happier life. I was like in the depths

19:05

of depression. I'm like, this isn't going to,

19:07

you know, anyway, I read her book and

19:09

I was like, okay, this she's kind of

19:11

onto something before we had the conversation. Then

19:13

I read it second time and I realized

19:15

there were so many things I had manifested

19:17

good and bad in my life by

19:20

putting myself in that situation, by putting myself

19:22

in front of it. So this isn't necessarily

19:24

true just for like physical being in this

19:26

big city or whatever. But I think that

19:28

even if you want to meet a person

19:30

that is really into hiking and fishing, maybe

19:32

you got to be spending more time on

19:35

the mountains and amongst lakes, whatever. Yeah. Put

19:37

yourself in front of it. I am

19:39

all for manifestation. I literally, once I

19:41

booked catfish full time, got a tattoo

19:43

that says speak life on it because

19:46

manifest everything would have taken too much

19:48

room, but speaking life into things,

19:50

it's in the Bible and I'm a Christian,

19:52

but I'm not super duper religious in the sense

19:54

that I don't go to church every single Sunday, but I do have

19:57

a close relationship with God. And I'm just like, okay, I'm going to

19:59

have a relationship a close relationship with

20:01

myself. And I believe that the

20:03

Bible says that there's power of life and

20:05

death in the tongue. And I feel like

20:07

no matter what you believe in, that is

20:09

a powerful statement of you do have the

20:11

power to make things happen for yourself. And

20:13

you also have the power to kill things

20:16

off that could have happened for you. But

20:18

men ain't shit. All men are

20:20

bad and all that bad negative

20:22

energy. It's really just bad manifestation.

20:24

And when we start manifesting better

20:26

things for ourselves, I'm not saying

20:28

that everything can be fixed with

20:30

speaking positively, but there's a lot

20:32

that can. Definitely. Okay. So

20:34

speaking of manifestation, speaking things into life,

20:36

you've had so many amazing opportunities coming

20:38

your way through your career. And one

20:41

thing that I've just personally selfishly want

20:43

to know from you, I'm hoping that

20:45

everyone that's listening to this conversation right

20:47

now feels the same. It's like, how

20:49

do you actually know what opportunities to

20:51

say yes to and which ones to

20:53

say no to? Mm.

20:55

So I had Joy

20:58

Taylor on my podcast recently.

21:01

She's a huge TV broadcaster

21:03

in sports. And she was

21:05

just saying that when you're working in this

21:07

job, you need to know when to say

21:09

no to that yes, because there are opportunities

21:11

that are going to come your way that

21:13

they just don't align with you and where

21:15

you're going. And there have been times in

21:17

my life where this has definitely been the

21:19

case of when I had the privilege of

21:22

being able to make a decision. Even when

21:24

I booked Catfish, like I said, my goal

21:26

when I moved to LA was to be

21:28

on E-News. That's all I ever wanted. Every

21:30

single TV host that moved to LA, everyone

21:32

wanted to be on E. And

21:34

I got the opportunity to be on E when

21:37

I first moved here. I think it was like

21:39

four months into my move, but I put myself

21:41

in position to be able to get in

21:43

front of some people at E. It's a

21:45

long story, but I got

21:48

my chance and I ended

21:50

up co-hosting on Daily Pop a few

21:52

times, which was so much fun. I

21:54

had the best time and it was literally my

21:56

dream. It wasn't a full-time job, but I was

21:58

living my life. dream. I was

22:01

like, this is it. It was

22:03

just like more confirmation that I

22:05

moved for the right reasons and everything was coming

22:07

into place. Then because I was on it so

22:10

much, the producers there were like,

22:12

we would love to have you audition for

22:14

another show that we're doing. And

22:17

I did. It was going to be

22:20

similar to like a fashion

22:22

police commentary show. And while

22:24

I love watching fashion police,

22:26

love Jonah Rivers, R.P. I

22:29

did not necessarily feel like the tone

22:31

of it aligned with me

22:34

as a person. I just never wanted to

22:36

put myself in positions where I

22:39

was trying to be this TV

22:41

host who potentially would be on red carpets

22:43

interviewing celebrities that I had just talked shit about on

22:45

a show. I just didn't feel like that was me.

22:48

And I also just, I have a lot of opinions. Not all

22:50

of them need to be said on TV.

22:53

So I was just like, I

22:55

didn't necessarily feel like it was

22:57

the show for me, but it

23:00

was an opportunity. And I was like, okay,

23:02

I'm going to say no to E. What?

23:04

Like that doesn't even make sense. I can't

23:06

even wrap my mind around that. This is

23:08

my dream. This is my dream. And at

23:10

the same exact time, I got the offer

23:13

to do catfish full time, and

23:15

I couldn't do both. It had to be one

23:17

or the other. And I chose catfish. And

23:20

it was a weird, very

23:23

weird conversation to have

23:25

with E because everybody

23:27

wants to be on E. But

23:30

this is a once in a lifetime opportunity

23:32

on catfish. I had never done

23:35

something on camera, maybe one of the top

23:37

three times in my life that I had

23:39

decided to do something that when I did

23:41

the first episode of catfish, I immediately knew

23:44

that it was for me. I immediately knew

23:46

that that was where I was meant to

23:48

be. And I felt it in my spirit. I

23:50

felt it in my soul. This is my job. This is

23:52

for me. We had a conversation

23:54

with a woman by the name of Leanne

23:56

Ford. She's a really well known interior designer.

24:00

some advice around this, and she essentially said,

24:02

say yes until you can say no. And

24:04

that was like a pretty powerful statement for

24:06

me. There's a lot of rhetoric right now

24:08

around like saying no, protecting your energy, all

24:10

this kind of stuff. But I do believe

24:12

that saying yes to all these opportunities up

24:14

until the point where you can say no

24:16

to your like dream job because something is

24:18

in more alignment with you, that makes a

24:20

lot of sense. I mean,

24:23

I built the whole first

24:25

seven years of my career off of saying

24:27

yes to everything. I said yes to everything

24:30

and I wasn't getting paid. I didn't even

24:32

care. I just was like, this is going

24:34

to help me build my reel. I'm going

24:36

to be able to put something together and

24:38

package it to send it to E. That's

24:41

all I was working for. And so yeah,

24:43

even my first opportunity on that local news

24:45

station in Connecticut, they were like, hey, can

24:47

you come tomorrow morning and bring

24:50

like four models and style them in

24:52

different looks for fall and like do

24:54

a fall fashion segment? And I was like, yeah, of

24:56

course. I'm not a stylist. I

24:59

didn't have any models. Like I

25:01

didn't have four fashion looks for

25:03

fall. I didn't have any of

25:05

that, but you know what? I

25:07

did have Facebook and a

25:09

closet full of clothes. And so I wrote

25:11

on Facebook, hey, patch and girls in

25:14

the Connecticut area in the Tri-State, does

25:16

anybody want to be my model tomorrow

25:18

morning at like literally 7 a.m.

25:20

And can you like bring a pair of

25:22

jeans maybe and like a white t-shirt? I

25:24

will style around it. I did that. And

25:27

I packed my car full of all the

25:29

stuff. I rented the rented car because nobody

25:31

has a car in New York, rented a

25:33

car, packed it full of a bunch of

25:35

stuff and just on set just started putting

25:37

stuff together. And that was my first segment

25:40

that I was able to use for my

25:42

reel. And yeah, I did that many times.

25:44

Oh, can you do a segment about? Yep.

25:46

Yep. Yeah. 100%. I'm the local

25:48

expert on that. Of course.

25:51

Yes. You've spoken about it on your

25:53

podcast, which I love the vulnerability, but

25:55

it's so funny because dating has gotten

25:57

so bad that we have women gathering

25:59

and creating Facebook groups. to protect one

26:02

another from the shenanigans of dating men,

26:04

literally city by city. We are organizing,

26:06

okay? Yep, we are organizing, beware. Yeah,

26:08

beware, we're on it, okay? So as

26:11

women behind the scenes are working to

26:13

solve the issues with dating men primarily,

26:15

and heterosexual relationships, et cetera, et cetera,

26:17

I know that you just recently got

26:20

into a relationship. Well, it's been two

26:22

years. Oh my gosh. I

26:24

just, I just, so. It feels so

26:27

reset. I keep it so on the

26:29

low that like, some people still don't

26:31

know, people still think I'm single. Yeah,

26:33

yeah. I've got a manual. Yes. But

26:36

I'm still organizing with all of you. I am organizing and

26:38

I am with you. How did you meet him?

26:41

On Raya, on a dating app. It was my first time

26:43

on a dating app. It was my first day on the

26:45

app. And that's what I'm saying. Sometimes you have to put

26:47

yourself in front of it because I had an assistant at

26:49

the time who, she was 22, I was not. And

26:53

she was like, she was just like,

26:55

you have to put yourself out there. You're not going

26:57

on any dates because you're never in town. You're always

26:59

traveling. How are you going to meet anybody? You need

27:01

to get on an app. And

27:04

I was just like, there's crazy people on apps.

27:06

There's murderers. I'm just thinking of all the negative

27:08

things that could happen. And she was like, well,

27:10

what about Raya? Like Raya is for people like

27:13

you who are in the industry and like want

27:15

to date in a safer environment. And I got

27:17

on the app and it takes a little bit

27:19

to be like accepted because they have to go

27:21

through their whole little quote unquote vetting process. But

27:24

then I got accepted and first day I'm on

27:26

there just like, this is fun. Swiping, swiping, swiping.

27:28

Everybody's no, no, no, no, no. And

27:31

then I saw my man and

27:33

it was like the universe opened up for

27:35

me. He's just off the

27:37

best. He's so great. Did you see

27:39

anyone on there that people would probably

27:41

want to date? Yes. Did you cruise

27:43

by Ben Affleck? Was he around or

27:45

then? I didn't see Ben. I

27:48

did not see Ben and I didn't see

27:50

John Mayer. Although I've heard that John Mayer

27:53

is on there. I saw like Kristen Cavallari's

27:55

ex-husband. He was like holding a fish in

27:57

his photo. I was like, this is a

27:59

choice. that was an X for me. That

28:02

was going to be a no for me. Some

28:04

athletes and stuff like that. But I

28:06

really didn't care. After I saw my

28:08

man, I was pretty much over

28:11

it, but I had to stay on it because I

28:13

had to pretend like I was keeping my options open.

28:15

Of course, of course. I wasn't, but

28:17

I made a good effort in my mind. Dating

28:20

apps fatigue is very real.

28:23

And I know that you were able to

28:25

come across your man on the first day

28:27

on the app, which is amazing. But what

28:29

advice do you have for people listening that

28:31

are busy like you, that have big growing

28:33

careers, and they're just tired of navigating these

28:35

apps? How do we stay sane? Honestly,

28:37

I feel like we got to

28:40

get off the apps as great as the

28:42

apps are to connect and meet people. I

28:44

feel like people are too comfortable with sitting

28:46

on these apps all day and, hey, good

28:48

morning. How are you? Hey, how

28:50

are you? How's your day going? Yeah,

28:52

nothing with substance. We're not going to do that all

28:55

day. I will say with my boyfriend and I, we

28:57

matched the same day and

29:00

we started messaging right away. We got on

29:02

the phone for like 45 minutes and

29:04

then we went on our first date the

29:06

next day. Intention and finding a

29:09

man who is intentional is very easy

29:11

to suss out. We shouldn't be on

29:13

the app for three weeks, chit chatting

29:15

back and forth. When is the date?

29:17

When are we getting off of here?

29:19

So that's why I say I feel

29:21

like, although I do like

29:23

the apps, I think we need to get out into the wild

29:25

more. And write your list.

29:27

I'm very much about a list,

29:29

a manifestation list of what

29:33

you want in a partner. I labeled mine what

29:35

will find me in a man because I was

29:37

very intentional. Like, I'm not looking for you. You

29:39

need to find me and this is what you're

29:41

going to be like. If you are going to

29:43

be at home on a Saturday night or yourself

29:45

a glass of wine or a poppy or whatever

29:48

you drink, sit down, light

29:50

a candle and write out your list

29:52

of every single thing that you want

29:55

in a partner. Every single thing that

29:57

I wrote on my list is

29:59

what I got. with the exception of one thing,

30:01

which is that I said that he must

30:04

love dogs. My boyfriend doesn't love dogs. He likes

30:06

dogs. He's like, our kids can get a dog,

30:09

but he's not like obsessed, which is not what

30:11

I ordered, but I got everything else. And

30:13

what was the title of this list again? What

30:16

Will Find Me in a Man. What Will Find

30:18

Me in a Man? If you're listening and you've

30:20

got your man or your partner, your girl, whoever

30:22

it may be, What Will Find Me

30:24

in a Job is another really great evolution

30:26

to this. I love this idea. Yes,

30:30

I believe in it. I believe in it.

30:32

What Will Find Me in a Home. If

30:34

you're in the home buying process, you can

30:36

get everything that you want. A strong believer in

30:38

that. So speaking of

30:41

the journey that you're on, I'm curious,

30:43

what is next for you? Oh,

30:46

well, I am in my

30:48

producer era. I very

30:50

much want to be producing my

30:52

own shows, and I've got a lot of

30:54

great ideas, and I want to see them

30:57

come to life. I think that's my next

30:59

thing. I love hosting, but I also

31:01

have this beautiful man. I want to

31:03

have a beautiful family, and I want to be able to

31:05

do projects and things that can

31:07

live on without me being at the front

31:09

of them all the time. I think that

31:11

that's like truly when I'll feel like my

31:14

career is like, OK, stamped. I've done all

31:16

the things. Some people would think that I've already

31:18

done all the things, but there's still so much

31:20

more that I want to do. So definitely

31:22

producing, definitely continuing on with my podcast, because

31:25

I absolutely love it and I love the

31:27

conversations that I'm able to have with people

31:29

and the connections that I'm able to build

31:31

with that. And then on a personal front,

31:34

your girl is trying to get married. OK,

31:36

I'm trying to get married. I'm trying to

31:38

have this wedding. I'm trying to have these

31:40

kids. I'm trying to have like three kids.

31:43

So I'm going to be busy. Yeah. And

31:45

yeah, I want to do it in that order also.

31:48

So that's like another thing. Yeah.

31:50

I'm changing things up. Changing things

31:52

up. We're going to have the bridal shower first and then

31:54

baby shower. Amazing. Well, Kami,

31:56

I think this is a great place

31:58

to end our conversation. today. Before

32:00

we wrap up, do you have any

32:03

advice for our listeners? Be

32:05

careful how you talk to yourself. Be

32:08

gentler on yourself. As someone who is a very,

32:10

I wouldn't say I'm a negative self-talker, I'm an

32:12

aggressive self-talker. So like, if I'm not doing something,

32:14

if I know I need to be out of

32:16

the bed and getting something going, I'll be like,

32:18

bitch, get up. Like, what are you doing? And

32:20

like, that's how I talk to myself. But that

32:23

to me is positive self-talk. Like,

32:25

I want everyone to talk to themselves in

32:27

the way that they would want to be

32:29

spoken to. Sometimes that's a little bit of

32:31

tough love, but like, let's remember

32:34

that we are human beings and like to

32:36

be gentle with yourself and be more loving

32:38

to yourself. Spend a little less time critiquing

32:40

yourself in the mirror and a little bit

32:43

more time complimenting yourself on the things that

32:45

you did accomplish that day. I think that

32:47

that can actually help you have a better,

32:49

brighter day and future and help you be

32:51

a little bit more productive and accomplished when

32:54

you do things that way. So I would

32:56

start there and then you can conquer the

32:58

world after that. Yeah, big yourself

33:00

up. I love that. Big yourself up. Yeah.

33:03

Okay. Cammie, where can people find you and

33:05

continue to support you? I'm on all

33:07

platforms at Cammie Crawford. And then you

33:09

might catch me on some MTV shows here

33:11

and there. I feel like they're always

33:13

changing the days, but Catfish is on, then

33:16

I'm also on Are You The One?

33:18

That one is on Paramount Plus and

33:20

then X on the Beach is on MTV.

33:22

And then the podcast, Relationship, comes on

33:24

every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts. Awesome.

33:26

Thank you so much for your time

33:28

and energy today. I really appreciate it.

33:30

Thank you. And

33:35

that's a wrap on this season of Girl

33:37

Boss Radio. We'll be on hiatus for the

33:39

next few weeks, but we'll be back very

33:41

soon. Don't worry. Leave a comment or send

33:43

me a DM on Instagram at averfrancis to

33:45

let me know what you loved about this

33:47

season and what you think we can do

33:49

better. And we cannot wait to share all

33:51

the big things we have in store for

33:53

next season. So get excited. This podcast is

33:55

produced by Liz Goober and Victoria Christie and

33:57

edited by David Domine. Until next season, keep

33:59

blooming.