0:00

the international community must prepare for

0:02

the worst. The worst is that

0:05

the RSA will attack on fashion. How

0:07

the international community can prepare for that, I

0:09

think they must provide safe

0:12

areas and safe

0:14

passage for civilians who

0:17

may flee areas of

0:19

risk. Welcome

0:23

to Global Dispatches, a podcast for

0:25

the foreign policy and global development

0:28

communities and anyone who wants a

0:30

deeper understanding of what is driving

0:32

events in the world today. I'm

0:35

your host, Mark Leon Goldberg. I

0:37

am a veteran international affairs journalist

0:39

and the editor of UN Dispatch.

0:42

Enjoy the show. Looking

0:56

for a trustworthy podcast to bring

0:58

you unfiltered viewpoints and experiences on

1:00

global health? Tune into

1:02

Global Health Matters, the podcast

1:05

that connects silos and amplifies

1:07

diverse voices to give you

1:09

a holistic picture. Each

1:11

month, Dr. Gary S. Lanyon from

1:14

the World Health Organization hosts discussions

1:16

with guests spanning former ministers of

1:19

health, award-winning journalists and authors, and

1:21

frontline public health workers. Join

1:24

listeners from across 180 countries

1:26

for an exciting season four,

1:29

launching in June. Global

1:31

Health Matters is available on Apple

1:34

Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. El

1:40

Fashir is the largest city in

1:43

Sudan's Darfur region. It

1:45

is also one of the only

1:47

cities in Darfur that has not

1:49

fallen to the paramilitary rapid support

1:52

forces in a civil war which

1:54

broke out last year. However,

1:57

at time of recording, it looks as

1:59

if an attack on al-Fasher

2:01

was imminent. The

2:03

RSF has surrounded the city and is

2:05

laying siege. The United

2:07

States, United Nations and key players

2:10

around the world are urging against

2:12

this impending attack but it is

2:14

not clear that the RSF will

2:16

be restrained. There

2:18

are deep concerns for the fate of at

2:20

least 800,000 people trapped

2:23

in al-Fasher for the fact

2:25

that the RSF is a

2:27

genocidal militia. The

2:29

RSF is the rebranded Janjaweed

2:31

militia which carried out the

2:34

Darfur genocide 20 years ago

2:37

and since a full-scale civil war broke

2:39

out in Sudan in April 2023 the

2:43

RSF has reprised many

2:45

of their genocidal tactics

2:47

of targeting non-Arab ethnicities

2:49

in Darfur for annihilation.

2:53

My guest today Mutasim Ali is

2:55

a legal advisor at the Raoul

2:57

Wallenberg Center for Human Rights. Last

3:00

week the Wallenberg Center published

3:03

a report of compiled evidence

3:05

demonstrating that genocide is ongoing

3:07

in Darfur and is being

3:10

perpetrated by the RSF against

3:12

non-Arab groups. We

3:15

discuss at length how they came to

3:17

that conclusion. Mutasim

3:19

Ali is also from al-Fasher so

3:21

we discuss the looming RSF assault

3:24

on that city and what

3:26

if anything can be done to prevent

3:28

this attack. Sudan is

3:31

the largest humanitarian crisis in

3:33

the world. This episode

3:35

is part of our ongoing

3:37

series on the atrocities in

3:39

Darfur and the civil war

3:41

in Sudan which unfortunately is

3:43

getting scant media attention at

3:46

least compared to the sheer scale

3:48

of this ongoing calamity. Please

3:51

support this effort by becoming a paying

3:53

subscriber to Global Dispatches

3:56

by visiting globaldispatches.org or upgrading

3:58

your or a

4:00

subscription in the Apple Podcasts app.

4:03

We are able to do these

4:06

kinds of episodes with such frequency

4:08

because of listener support. So

4:10

thank you. You can visit

4:13

the show notes of this episode

4:15

to find links to globaldispatches.org. Now

4:19

here is my conversation with Mutasim

4:21

Ali, legal advisor at the Raoul

4:24

Wallenberg Center for Human Rights. Thank

4:30

you. So

4:43

we are gonna be spending the

4:45

bulk of our conversation today discussing

4:47

the actions of the Rapid Support

4:49

Forces, the RSF. This is something

4:51

I've discussed a lot on the

4:53

show in the past year, but

4:55

can you just describe the conduct,

4:57

the activities of the RSF

5:00

in Darfur since

5:02

the start of this full-blown

5:05

civil war a

5:07

year ago in April? I

5:09

just wanna note that the RSF, now

5:12

that fighting the Sudanese Armed Forces,

5:15

they were actually aligned together

5:17

in the beginning of the Darfur

5:20

conflict. They were created by the

5:22

Sudanese government. They were

5:24

trained by the Sudanese Armed Forces. And

5:27

so they were working together in

5:30

committing atrocities in Darfur.

5:32

So they were partners in crime

5:34

in the early 2000s genocide. Now

5:37

the current war, the

5:39

fallout between the Rapid Support Forces

5:41

and the Sudanese Armed Forces occurred

5:44

on April 15th, 2023. There

5:48

were many reasons. Some of them say

5:50

power struggle, struggle

5:53

for more economic resources, fear

5:55

of accountability and the like.

5:58

But what is really clear. here

6:00

is that the two generals, the

6:02

commander of the Sudanese armed forces of Burhan

6:05

and Hometi, who is the commander of the

6:07

weapons support forces, his full

6:09

name is Muhammad Hamdan Dagalu. Better

6:11

known as Hometi. Yes, everybody knows

6:14

him as Hometi. And

6:16

so really the underlying crisis between

6:18

the two generals is really the

6:21

competition for power. To

6:23

the RSF's context in

6:25

the context of the current war, I

6:28

must note that the weapons support

6:30

forces, the RSF, never

6:32

cease to commit atrocities in Darfur,

6:35

even during the transitional period, especially

6:38

in Western Fall. During

6:41

the transitional period in 2019 and 2020 and 2021, the RSF

6:47

committed a series of ethnically

6:50

motivated attacks against the

6:53

misleading Western Fall. Of

6:55

course, there are many other incidents in

6:58

North Darfur in an area called

7:00

Pawila or in Kabir or in

7:02

South Darfur in Greer, but there

7:04

are many, many I can cite

7:06

a number of incidents committed by the RSF.

7:09

And so the RSF really never cease to

7:12

commit atrocities. The

7:14

significance of the current

7:16

conflict and the war between the Sudanese

7:19

armed forces and

7:21

the R forces

7:37

and therefore they became the target.

7:40

This is what they said in many

7:42

of their statements when they launched their

7:44

attack in Western Fall. And

7:46

so basically the fallout between the weapons

7:48

support forces and the Sudanese armed forces

7:51

served as an execute for the RSF

7:53

to commit more atrocities. So now they

7:56

commit atrocities really

7:58

widespread. the

8:00

guise of we're defending ourselves,

8:02

we're fighting for democracy, and

8:05

we're fighting the remnants of the old regime.

8:08

And so part of their

8:11

policy is to besiege cities

8:14

before they actually attack them. Then

8:18

they loot shops, hospitals, you

8:20

know, warehouses. And the idea

8:22

was really to weaken the

8:25

society and to make their

8:27

attack a lot more easier to prevent

8:29

any resistance. Of

8:31

course, they also commit

8:34

rape as a weapon

8:36

of war. This has been a systematic

8:39

murder of Brande since

8:41

early 2000s. Most of

8:43

the contacts that we see today are exact

8:46

same as in early 2000s. And

8:50

having covered that earlier genocide,

8:52

you know, the ostensible

8:54

reason for the first genocide

8:58

was that these groups would attack

9:00

the civilian population from which an

9:02

insurgency against the government, which was

9:04

then aligned with the RSF and

9:07

John Deweed. But

9:09

now you have the RSF attacking

9:11

the Muslim population in West Darfur

9:14

because they ostensibly believe

9:17

them to be aligned with the government who they're

9:19

fighting in this civil war.

9:23

That is precise. So we've seen

9:26

mass movement of Muslim people

9:28

from places where the RSF

9:30

have taken over. People

9:33

are kind of voting with their

9:35

feet. They're fleeing for fear of

9:37

being attacked based on their ethnicity.

9:40

What evidence have you

9:42

compiled thus far that these

9:44

attacks amount to genocide, which

9:46

is a very high

9:48

legal threshold to cross? I mean,

9:51

we've seen reports since the start

9:53

of this civil war of all

9:56

sorts of atrocities. But

9:58

what makes you certain? that

10:00

these atrocities have crossed that threshold to

10:02

genocide? The primary

10:05

source of our evidence is

10:07

the open source

10:09

information, right? And that is

10:11

purposeful because we

10:13

want to say that everything we say

10:16

it is already out there with nothing

10:18

confidential about the evidence we

10:20

cite. And so we relied

10:23

heavily on reports. Some

10:25

of the reports cover victims

10:27

testimonies especially those who fled

10:30

to Eastern Chad, Adri. And

10:33

so that's really the primary source of

10:35

our evidence. I must

10:37

also say that the

10:39

report is endorsed by

10:41

world-leading experts in the field,

10:44

lawyers, international jurists, academics,

10:47

former prosecutors, international

10:49

tribunals, former prosecutor

10:51

of the ICC and former UN

10:54

officials and the like. Very

10:56

comprehensive despite the fact that

10:58

or maybe because of the fact that

11:00

it relies on such a volume of

11:02

open source material it really is you

11:04

know indeed like a comprehensive collection of

11:08

many of the crimes that the RSF

11:10

have committed in Darfur since the start

11:13

of the conflict. But I guess I'm

11:15

wondering what makes you think that these

11:17

crimes rise to that level

11:19

of genocide? The major question that

11:21

we face in making analysis is in

11:23

order to establish the crime of genocide

11:26

really you have to prove that the

11:28

acts were committed with intent to

11:30

destroy and hold or impart a

11:33

protected group. There is quite

11:36

agreement among most

11:38

scholars and those who document the

11:40

situation in Darfur that the acts were committed

11:43

in Darfur are

11:45

ethnically motivated nature right like

11:48

basically targeting particular ethnic groups.

11:50

These are protected groups. This

11:53

was established even by the ICC

11:55

in the first ever indictment against

11:57

Bashir right. Masalid is a protected group. group.

12:01

Now we established that the Maasai-DS is

12:03

a protected group. We established

12:05

that the acts that were committed are

12:08

genocidal acts and now the major

12:10

question is whether there is actually

12:13

an intent to destroy the Maasai-DS in

12:15

the whole important part. And that's

12:17

always the most difficult part of any

12:19

genocide case. I mean you could have

12:21

lots of crimes on the ground. You

12:23

could have evidence of mass graves and

12:25

mass killing and ethnic cleansing but what

12:28

makes genocide unique is that in order to

12:30

be proven there has to be that intent

12:32

to destroy a group in a

12:34

whole or in part. So how was it

12:36

that you were able to establish

12:39

that genocidal intent? First

12:42

we referenced earlier incidents, right?

12:44

The incitement to genocide, implicit

12:47

incitement, explicit incitement and then

12:49

we compared them with recent

12:52

incitement rhetoric in West Darfur, right? Like

12:54

we're here to kill all of them,

12:56

so leave. So it's just leave. This

12:58

is the land of Arabs and that

13:00

Maasalid and killing the Maasalid boys and

13:02

so we documented that very

13:04

well. Although there

13:07

is no written policy to

13:10

say that the RSF actually

13:12

intended to kill or to

13:14

wipe out the Maasalid, the

13:17

pattern of conduct and the incitement

13:20

followed by their actions, right? The

13:22

rape and the systematic depopulation of

13:24

Maasalid and execution of Maasalid searching

13:26

them house by house made

13:29

us believe that the only reasonable inference

13:32

from all these conduct is the intent

13:35

to destroy the Maasalid in whole

13:37

or in part as investigators,

13:39

right? We are not a court of

13:41

law and therefore our

13:43

standard of proof is not like

13:46

no one would be using the court

13:48

of law, right? It's not beyond reasonable

13:50

doubt. We use with

13:52

clear and convincing evidence, right? This

13:54

is being used also in other

13:56

contexts by the ICCS

13:58

wall and therefore For based

14:01

on the evidence that we collected, there

14:03

is no way that you can infer

14:05

any other than the

14:07

intent to destroy the Mesalite group

14:09

in whole or in part. Can

14:12

you just give by way of example

14:15

any specific evidence that

14:17

you think is really kind of

14:19

conclusive to your determination? O'Four

14:31

towards Adri in Chad

14:34

and on their way to Adri,

14:36

to a few decabin, is from

14:38

Chad, there were many

14:41

RSF checkpoints and

14:44

so women with infants,

14:46

like even six months old, were

14:49

sourced to check whether they are males

14:51

or females. If they were males, then

14:53

they would be killed immediately. And

14:56

the argument is that the RSF will kill the

14:58

boys to prevent them from

15:00

being fighters in the future. And

15:03

this is sort of accusation and

15:05

mirror, right? We're speaking of

15:07

MVA, six months old, and there are many

15:10

incidents of this sort. Then

15:13

you will find evidence

15:15

of the RSF

15:18

fighters going to houses, searching

15:20

for Mesalite, just to execute

15:22

them. And

15:25

incidents of rape. As they

15:27

commit rape, they would say, this

15:29

is the land of Arabs, there will

15:32

be no Mesalite anymore and we will

15:34

execute you all. The best

15:36

option for you is to flee to Chad, for example.

15:38

And so there are really series of shocking

15:41

incidents that we

15:43

can continue to narrate, but all

15:46

indicate that the RSF actually intended

15:48

to eradicate Mesalite

15:50

from their land. And

15:52

your report makes clear, these weren't just isolated incidents.

15:54

It was a very common pattern

15:56

of behavior over the course of the year

15:58

that led to the end to

16:00

your genocide conclusion. One really

16:04

interesting thing about your report is

16:06

that while it does establish, I

16:08

think, conclusively, that RSF is committing

16:10

genocide, it also suggests

16:12

very strongly that certain

16:15

state parties to the Genocide Convention

16:17

like the United Arab Emirates and

16:19

CHAD are complicit as

16:22

well. Could you describe

16:24

how it is you concluded,

16:26

for example, that the United Arab

16:28

Emirates is also implicated in the

16:31

genocide of the mazalit by

16:33

the RSF? The

16:35

relationship between the RSF and

16:37

the United Arab Emirates goes

16:40

back to 2014 when

16:43

the RSF soldiers were

16:45

sent to Yemen to fight on behalf of

16:47

the Emiratis and Saudis, right? They were getting

16:49

a lot of financial support,

16:52

military supplies and the like. But

16:55

since the outbreak of the April 2023

16:57

war, we've been able to document

17:02

and read many other

17:04

credible reports about

17:07

the UAE's direct support

17:09

of the RSF. These

17:12

reports include UN panel

17:14

of experts on Sudan, other

17:17

open-source investigative journalists

17:19

that commented the

17:22

UAE's support through Libya,

17:25

through CHAD, through

17:27

Central African Republic, and

17:30

were able to also see that

17:32

the UAE is using CHAD as

17:35

a place to support

17:38

the RSF by building sort

17:40

of a got humanitarian

17:42

hospital in Israel and

17:44

Chad in Jorah city.

17:47

Also not just humanitarian hospital, hospital to

17:49

serve as a... It was a pretext,

17:51

right? I remember reading that report. It's

17:54

basically the UAE established

17:56

this quote-unquote hospital at an airport

17:58

in Chad. but used

18:01

the idea that they were transporting humanitarian

18:03

goods as a cover to actually transport

18:05

arms and munitions to the RSF, which

18:08

they then used to carry out their

18:10

genocide against the Muslim people. Right. And

18:13

so there was really quite

18:15

extensive evidence of

18:17

the UAE using chat

18:19

as a place to support

18:22

the RSF. And

18:25

of course we have other confidential evidence

18:27

that we have not used in our

18:29

report, but again, the UAE

18:32

support is quite well-documented, including,

18:35

as I mentioned, by the UN panel

18:37

of experts on Sudan. And

18:40

actually even the US found those

18:42

reporting as credible. It

18:44

seems at this point you have this situation where

18:47

the most powerful army in

18:49

Sudan is the RSF. They

18:52

are committing genocide against the Muslim

18:54

people and are being supported by

18:56

a very wealthy country that carries

18:58

a lot of diplomatic weight in

19:00

the UAE and the

19:03

neighboring country, Chad. Absolutely. It's

19:05

like a recipe for complete

19:07

disaster. Right. And by

19:09

the way, the UAE is support

19:11

or complicity. It's not only because

19:13

of funding military supplies to the

19:15

RSF through Chad or Central African

19:17

Republic or Libya, but also the

19:19

fact that some of the RSF

19:22

affiliated companies are based in the UAE.

19:24

For example, some of the companies that were

19:27

recently sanctioned by the US

19:29

government, by the Canadian government, by

19:31

the UK government, and by the

19:33

EU as well, to NATO

19:35

and to ADIF. And these

19:37

are basically like front companies that are

19:39

used to make money for the RSF.

19:41

Exactly. And therefore what

19:44

we're saying is that under

19:46

the genocide convention, to

19:48

which the UAE is a third party, the

19:51

UAE could have acted to prevent,

19:54

right, because it has

19:56

leverage over the RSF, right. And

19:58

it failed to do so. This is number one. And second,

20:01

it is actually also complicit

20:03

in providing funds and

20:06

arms. And there

20:08

is no chance that the

20:10

RSF could actually sustain this

20:12

long fight without having a

20:14

backing from a state like the UAE.

20:17

So, we are speaking on Thursday, May 2nd.

20:21

And by the time this episode

20:23

is released, it may be the

20:25

fact that the RSF is

20:28

attacking or has already attacked

20:30

one of the largest cities

20:32

in the region, al-Fashir. The

20:35

United States government, the UN, everyone

20:37

is saying, please do not attack

20:39

this city. This is going

20:42

to cause a humanitarian catastrophe. If

20:45

indeed the RSF does

20:47

carry out this attack

20:49

on al-Fashir, what

20:51

would you expect to happen based

20:54

on all that you know about

20:56

the RSF? So

20:58

definitely the consequences would

21:00

be more

21:03

catastrophic in terms

21:05

of numbers than what we

21:07

have seen in Al-Janaina. The

21:09

capital of West Darfur, which

21:11

RSF sacked over there last

21:13

summer? Right. And there

21:16

are a couple of reasons why I

21:19

believe that al-Fashir will be more tragic.

21:22

Al-Fashir now is home to, according to

21:24

the UN, 800,000 people. And

21:30

I'm from North Darfur al-Fashir and

21:32

I believe this number is inaccurate.

21:34

The population of Al-Fashir is way,

21:36

way bigger than this. But

21:39

let's rely on the UN numbers. There

21:42

are about 800,000 people. Most

21:44

of these people have already displaced

21:46

from other places that are captured

21:49

by the RSF. Displays

21:52

Have been displaced for more than 20

21:55

years since the first genocide, right? the

21:57

11 and IDP, the Infamous Displace Process.

22:00

The around and faster. Oh,

22:02

because of this huge number

22:05

of people either. Flasher. The.

22:07

Attack on our fashion by

22:10

the Rsf would definitely result

22:12

in more casualties. This number

22:14

one, number two. In.

22:16

As in a now capital of for stuff

22:19

for. Sale was. Perhaps.

22:21

A walkable distance to move. And.

22:24

Was seated was eg. com but his swing set.

22:27

In. Or Pfizer. There's

22:29

no possible way that people

22:31

can flee. To. Chat. And

22:34

prices in the middle of promise?

22:36

nowhere? And it

22:38

is now is so called by the

22:40

Rss. And so basically people have

22:42

no way to flee to. Adding.

22:45

To this. It is now dry

22:47

season is them. And advice

22:49

was router with. Desert land.

22:52

And. So even if people were able

22:55

to leave the city of a

22:57

faster. Probably. They wouldn't

22:59

be able to survive. The. Desert. And

23:03

therefore. And. Attack on and faster.

23:05

Would. Definitely. Be.

23:07

A lot more. Isaac. And.

23:10

It is exactly that reason

23:12

why we think I'll report

23:14

is timely. In. Loading the

23:16

international community. And people

23:19

of consists. To. Prevent.

23:21

Would. We have seen already. He

23:23

has janine and in other parts of door

23:26

for. From. Happening again in

23:28

a fight or anywhere else in.for.

23:30

The I mean this is the

23:33

same set of actors of once

23:35

again surrounding and trying to sack

23:37

as city you well documented their

23:40

intent to be genocidal. your you

23:42

said you are from El Fasher.

23:44

What are you hearing from people

23:46

in the city right now who

23:49

are essentially trap presumably some of

23:51

your your friends and family. Absolutely

23:54

speaking to. People.

23:56

They're just t. Know.

23:58

How they're doing. And how they

24:00

feel about the sufficient what are the

24:03

ways week and hub and people just

24:05

this hurt right A lot of people

24:07

as Saudi gave up a mean there

24:09

is no where they can go and

24:11

even if they are some pathways people

24:13

didn't have the means to leave and

24:16

faster and therefore people just giving up

24:18

and this a you know would wait

24:20

for all faith this and that the

24:22

first time dates and gulf fleeing for

24:24

safety of this is be a consistent

24:26

Wales live for them disorders. Part about

24:29

this is that. For a lot

24:31

of people in a fire, sure. He. Became

24:33

part of their daily a

24:36

superiors to hear gunshots and

24:38

people being cozy and there

24:41

and is. On. Forced him

24:43

to normalize something like that and therefore,

24:45

I think people, really. Willy. Nilly.

24:48

Giving up for what is to com because

24:50

they used in a see. A

24:52

way out of this. Unless. The.

24:55

International Community Act decisively.

24:58

And tend to course of history but

25:00

people they're not really hopping a lot

25:02

because in or as a commune has

25:05

already fell several times and the consists

25:07

of Door For and so. That.

25:09

Is the saddest emitter We continue to hear from

25:11

people there. Do. You suspect

25:13

that this attack will happen. You.

25:15

Know I have reason to believe that

25:17

this attack is imminent and in it

25:19

is really a matter of. When.

25:22

Not if because the aura of

25:24

is determined and I take them

25:26

by the words. They. Take and

25:28

feist of as. A military

25:30

objectives and the in circles on

25:33

they took you know the ways

25:35

nine to eleven. Villages.

25:37

with a foster. They

25:40

took one of the biggest cities in

25:42

northern of us have caused believe. This.

25:44

Is sort of a gateway to Alsace

25:46

you it's a big city and ah

25:48

for at that most of the humanitarian

25:50

aid or supplies come through Millie. And.

25:53

So everything that the aura of is

25:55

doing these days they will he indicated

25:58

there with identifies of as. About

26:00

when and then of course, in addition to that,

26:03

The. Same incitement. That.

26:05

We have or. Guess.

26:08

The. Mythology and was duffel but now

26:10

be used against as a gallon

26:12

for in north.for and these are

26:14

two other ethnic groups. the Muslim

26:16

are are not predominant in Northern

26:18

Darfur, but does Zoc our and

26:20

the For our predominant in El

26:23

Fasher. And and your concern that

26:25

you're here in the same kind

26:27

of anti Muslim rhetoric that we

26:29

heard earlier now again targeting these

26:31

other non Arab ethnic groups. Absolutely.

26:33

And these are the indications that

26:35

will make us believe that the

26:37

Rss. Is. Going T. Attack.

26:40

Us faster and less. The or

26:42

is really a big thing happens

26:45

on the international community spirit and

26:47

of course the ongoing recruitment from

26:49

all parts of Darfur. You know

26:51

the are as of now taking

26:54

control of for other states and

26:56

door for now they have the

26:58

access to a lot more resources

27:00

but also easy to is to

27:03

people and record people. And

27:05

other assays to come and join their

27:07

fighters in North Darfur. and so. There.

27:10

Is room and I'm going with

27:12

was miss our combined with deliberate

27:14

incitement against particular ethnic groups for

27:16

and the Gower case and that's

27:19

what makes us believe that the

27:21

Rss will attack and fi stuff.

27:23

And it is about when. Than.

27:25

That if. As. You

27:27

said this attack really does

27:29

seem imminent. Your It could

27:31

be that by the time

27:34

this episode is released, that

27:36

attack is ongoing. I'm wondering

27:38

though, is stopping the Rsf

27:40

from attacking El Fasher at

27:42

this point? A matter of

27:44

international diplomacy. specifically. Countries.

27:46

Like the United States more

27:48

heavily leaning on Rsf enablers

27:50

like the Uae he to

27:53

rain them in is that

27:55

the most. Perhaps. Direct

27:57

pressure points that my

27:59

for. B us have to change

28:01

their calculus at this point. Or.

28:03

Is there anything that could change their calculus? Sula.

28:06

Given the. Eminent. Thread

28:08

that. People. Are and

28:10

Fi surveys seen many. The thing

28:13

that the best. Way. To

28:15

prevent atrocities is peacekeeping mission trade.

28:17

but given the current said authors

28:20

a d to thirty thousand the

28:22

dynamic the this is unlikely and

28:24

so what does the next from

28:27

the probably wouldn't influence that has

28:29

on and Pfizer. definitely a direct

28:31

pressure on the way He given

28:33

the lovely the day you he

28:36

has over the are safe and

28:38

it's leaders this is going to

28:40

be extremely helpful again because the

28:43

Are as if relies heavily. On.

28:45

The you a you the

28:47

support second. I. Think. The.

28:50

Right price or of perhaps

28:52

even target is sizes or

28:54

even an arrest warrant. Against.

28:57

The commander of the Rsf

28:59

him as thou would definitely

29:01

influence the situation as well.

29:03

One of the reasons why

29:05

the hours of fighters continue

29:07

to commit atrocities without fear

29:09

and often time. actually Latino

29:11

broke has its on social

29:14

media platforms right? Twitter, Tic

29:16

Toc, Facebook, and like. Because

29:19

they do not fear accountability.

29:21

The. Has never been. A

29:23

transitional Just as even didn't

29:26

transitional period. And

29:28

so that revelus of impunity.

29:31

Sort. Of awarded the Rss because the

29:33

war is paying off for them they

29:35

can do They can make. More

29:37

money and therefore by targeting

29:40

the news. They. May

29:42

fear. As. So I think. Those.

29:45

Are the direct things that. People.

29:47

Can do a didn't and on some

29:49

level. But. Also, I think. That

29:52

would. Not going t hundred percent

29:55

the doors of another type of

29:57

fashion. That. definitely will inflows of

29:59

the ways and but probably

30:01

would delay the attack on alfashire. But

30:03

I do think that the international community

30:06

must prepare for the worst. And the

30:08

worst is that the RSL will attack

30:10

alfashire. How the international community

30:12

can prepare for that, I think they

30:14

must provide safe areas

30:18

and safe passage for civilians

30:20

who may flee areas

30:22

of risk. So

30:26

your answer just now, and the

30:28

report on genocide in

30:31

Darfur demands a key

30:33

question. What opportunities

30:35

exist for accountability for

30:38

war crimes that have

30:40

been committed to include

30:43

genocide? On

30:45

normal circumstances, the

30:47

most effective way to halt

30:50

perpetrators' account will be domestic

30:52

accountability mechanisms. But

30:54

this is absent in the case of

30:56

Sudan. We don't have even a functioning

30:58

government in the country. And therefore we

31:00

cannot rely on

31:03

national or domestic mechanism. And

31:06

so now we're left with few options

31:08

at the international level, and

31:10

perhaps at the regional level, at

31:12

the African Union, maybe if there

31:14

is a political will, they

31:17

can establish special tribunals, right?

31:19

It's a prosecute perpetrators. But

31:22

I also see that as

31:24

unlikely, given how some of

31:26

the African states are welcoming Hometi

31:29

and the leaders of the RSF

31:31

in South Africa, for example,

31:34

in Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Djibouti,

31:36

and the like, even

31:38

Rwanda. And therefore I think the

31:41

only way is international mechanisms.

31:43

That includes the International Criminal

31:45

Court, the ICC. And

31:48

now I know that the prosecutor general

31:50

is investigating the situation in

31:52

Darfur, especially in West

31:54

Darfur. And I hope that there

31:57

will be a West Warren sometime soon. Of course,

31:59

there are already. already seven individuals have been

32:01

indicted by the ICC before only one

32:03

person has been on trial right now,

32:05

right? Which is in a service, unfortunately,

32:08

makes a lot of people do not believe

32:10

in the international mechanisms. But this

32:12

is the only thing that we have at this point

32:14

in time. Then the second thing

32:16

this is what we rely on a

32:19

lot is the case before International Court

32:21

of Justice, the ICJ. The

32:23

ICJ, hopefully what we will do is

32:26

to bring a case against

32:28

states that we identified as

32:30

complicit in the Dafrojuna side.

32:33

But as an organization or a

32:36

private town, this would not be

32:38

able to bring case before ICJ. You need

32:40

a government. We need a government. Do you

32:42

have any governments that you think might step

32:44

up as plaintiffs in a

32:46

case against, you know,

32:48

the way the ICJ works is that

32:50

the ICJ is where countries go to

32:52

sue other countries, the countries that would

32:54

be defendants here, presumably would be the

32:56

UAE and Chad. The ICJ is not

32:59

a forum where the RSF would defend

33:01

itself because it's not a state vector.

33:03

So are there like plaintiffs in

33:05

the waiting countries that would take up the

33:07

cause? We haven't reached out to states at

33:09

this point in time, but this is going

33:11

to be one of our

33:13

missions to make sure

33:16

that the ICJ will remain irrelevant. Accountability

33:18

forum, at least for states complicit

33:21

in the genocide in Dafrojuna.

33:24

As to the RSF, of course, you know,

33:26

there is a lack

33:28

on international legal frameworks that we

33:31

cannot really prosecute entities. There's no

33:33

legal framework for that. But I

33:35

think for the RSF, we

33:37

leave that to the ICC and other

33:40

hopefully additional mechanisms. Because the

33:42

ICC, of course, does have the

33:45

capacity to prosecute

33:47

individuals, whether they're state

33:49

actors or non-state actors, as opposed to the

33:51

ICJ, which only adjudicates

33:53

disputes between states. Right.

33:56

I don't know. I heard South Africa is interested

33:58

in genocide. So maybe- can get

34:00

them on board. I think this is

34:02

an excellent idea. I was wondering whether, I

34:05

mean, you know, we would have hoped that

34:07

a country like South Africa would take a

34:10

case like this, looking at the continent, you

34:12

know, but definitely we'll pursue

34:14

every avenue to make sure that the

34:16

ICJ will remain an available

34:19

mechanism. And of course, we

34:22

definitely support the ICC in everything that

34:24

they do. And we encourage in all

34:26

the meetings that we have with governments

34:28

to support the ICC's investigations. Unfortunately,

34:30

the ICC cannot try all individuals

34:32

involved in the atrocities. We know

34:35

that thousands of people have engaged

34:37

in atrocities. The ICC may only

34:39

have capacity to try senior

34:41

leaders. But I think that

34:44

will still be important until hopefully

34:46

there will be peace in Sudan and

34:48

there will be an actual, true transitional

34:50

justice in the country to prosecute all

34:52

involved. Tosim, thank

34:54

you so much for your time

34:56

and for this valuable report. Thank

34:58

you very much, Mark. Appreciate it.

35:08

Thanks for listening to Global Dispatches. The

35:11

show is produced by me, Mark Leon

35:13

Goldberg. It is edited and

35:15

mixed by Levi Sharpe. If

35:17

you are listening on Apple podcasts, make

35:20

sure to follow the show and enable

35:22

automatic downloads to get new episodes as

35:24

soon as they're released. On

35:27

Spotify, tap the bell icon to

35:29

get a notification when we publish

35:31

new episodes. And of

35:33

course, please visit globaldispatches.org to get on

35:36

our free mailing list, get in touch

35:38

with me and access our

35:40

full archive. Thank you.