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The. Fact that I got denied. It seems

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1:29

The Parliament of the United

1:31

Kingdom has passed a controversial

1:33

new law that would enable

1:35

the government to deport asylum

1:37

seekers to Rwanda under these

1:39

so called Safety of Rwanda

1:41

bill. The Rishi Sooner government

1:43

has pledged to send migrants

1:45

in the Uk to Rwanda

1:47

where their claims of asylum

1:50

would be processed. But.

1:52

His Rwanda actually safe. My

1:54

guest today, Sally Hidden is

1:56

a journalist who has reported

1:58

extensively on my. Ration and

2:00

Refugee issues. Last month, she

2:03

was barred from Rwanda owing

2:05

to her prior reporting on

2:07

the plate of refugees who

2:09

had been sent to Rwanda

2:11

as part of a separate

2:14

but similar European Union program.

2:17

Sally. Hidden is the author

2:19

of my fourth time We Drowned,

2:21

seeking refuge on the world's deadliest

2:23

migration routes which won the prestigious

2:26

Were Well prize in our conversation

2:28

at So He he didn't discuss

2:30

as for prior reporting on refugees

2:33

and or Wanda and helps put

2:35

this new Uk bill in the

2:38

broader context of Europe's increasingly harsh

2:40

policies towards refugees and asylum seekers.

2:43

I last spoke with Sally

2:45

hid in a couple years

2:48

ago when her book came

2:50

out. I recommend checking out

2:52

that episode from the archives

2:54

and you can access that

2:56

episode and our entire archive

2:58

by going to Global dispatches.org

3:00

A subscription to Global Dispatches

3:02

will unlock that full archive

3:04

and get you other bonus

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content as well, including essays

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that I write and commission

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dispatches.org and get your paying

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subscription to support our work.

3:19

Thank you! Now here is

3:21

my conversation with Journalists Sally

3:23

Hidden. Can

3:41

use kick off by exploiting

3:43

what happened when you last

3:46

tried to enter Rwanda last

3:48

month. So. I

3:50

was saying thera lines

3:52

are on March Twenty

3:55

says. I. Had for a

3:57

did a site in France the night before

3:59

and I. I'm getting through Addis

4:01

Ababa, any Ethiopia my layover with

4:03

like six hours I think, and

4:06

eventually I was lining up to

4:08

bore in their final site to

4:10

kick Ali and. Talk. To

4:12

their friends at the desk at the

4:14

gate and so the notice that the

4:16

airline staff or or looking at my

4:19

password and shaking their heads and basically

4:21

they explained to me that there are

4:23

ones in authorities had the emailed them.

4:26

By. Two hours before and said

4:28

that I'm specifically not allowed to

4:30

board this slide. And so

4:32

you know I was confused on I said.

4:35

Why They said we don't have any

4:37

reason in each state that offered their

4:39

Rwandan authorities. So what happened at that

4:41

point was they seized my past for

4:43

it. They told me that I can't.

4:46

Stand the air for it. I have to book another

4:48

site. To. My house and us. What I

4:50

did added. That with that

4:52

just some ago logistical matter like where

4:54

did you end up buying a flight

4:56

to. I just came back to

4:58

be read and they said of favorite at the

5:00

moment. So. Did

5:03

you hear from Rwanda

5:05

and authorities about why

5:07

your entry was denied?

5:10

Yeah, I mean I tried to follow

5:12

it up with many different people. And

5:14

I was trying to think that

5:17

was it a misunderstanding? Am I

5:19

contacted even my embassy who also

5:21

try to find diet? I didn't

5:23

really get clear answers. I

5:25

had a accreditation application

5:28

pending so. A lot

5:30

of accreditation applications. Were kind of

5:32

approved within a day or two, but

5:34

some take longer. And I had

5:36

ended up for I was like saying there

5:38

with i had it appraised but that's not

5:40

unusual I got a journalist has done that

5:43

since or had done that before. So.

5:45

I was also trying to follow up on my

5:47

accreditation and see where that still be approved if

5:49

that with a priest and I would have sown

5:52

again or tried to say again and seen if

5:54

I could get in but still I haven't heard

5:56

anything about that. It has no fish that he

5:58

been denied and I didn't. Really get clear

6:00

answers on my i wasn't allowed to board

6:03

the plane. You. Know I asked someone

6:05

from immigration and they said oh you're you're

6:07

free to come but they wouldn't give me

6:09

an email or like an official documents saying

6:11

that I could. Definitely town that

6:13

I could show to the airline and they

6:15

wouldn't give me an explanation as to why

6:17

I had been allies com and so it

6:19

was very confusing and I actually didn't say

6:22

anything publicly about it for a few weeks

6:24

because I was trying to say get this

6:26

resolved. But. Eventually I. Figured.

6:29

I should probably say it. And

6:31

what is your explanation for

6:33

why it was that you

6:35

were denied entry to Rwanda

6:37

as a journalist last month.

6:40

And in my. Understanding or

6:42

my. Assumption anyway

6:45

would be.it's related to my

6:47

previous. Reporting. So I've reported. In

6:49

Rwanda three times, twenty four,

6:51

thirteen, twenty nineteen, and Twenty

6:53

Twenty, and the last few

6:55

times were focused on the

6:57

treatment of refugees. Specifically.

7:00

Who had been transferred to Rwanda?

7:02

Treat this kind of either Team

7:05

Were refugees and asylum seekers are

7:07

taken from Libya. So. Temporarily

7:09

to Rwanda and then they

7:11

transferred to other sound really

7:13

western countries and so the

7:15

last time that I went

7:17

to Rwanda I ended up

7:19

for the singer employed abide

7:21

an allegation us attempted sexual

7:23

assault by as kind of.

7:26

The. Person who was. Working.

7:28

When these camps against some minor.

7:31

Procedure. Your asylum seeker boy. So.

7:33

I was contacted by refugees in the

7:35

camp. He said that they were really

7:38

concerned that this had happened. There was

7:40

in their proper investigation, the person who

7:42

is accused was still kind of wandering

7:44

freely around the com. People. Were

7:46

quite distressed about that. They had a

7:49

list of demands that they felt would

7:51

increase their safety which included the presence

7:53

of a Un hate you are official

7:55

on the com. And. Various

7:58

other things and said we've had this. There

8:00

were four. It. But. Only after

8:02

the Rwandan fees for his had gone

8:04

public on Twitter and said that the

8:06

boy was lying about their allegation. And.

8:09

As to the report came out

8:12

there, president spokesperson posted online accusing

8:14

me of writing refugee poor and.

8:17

And. Governments. Associated

8:19

newspaper The New Times also

8:21

repeated this allegation and said

8:24

that I paddle lies. And.

8:26

So it i was also like attacked

8:28

a lot. By. Pro Government

8:31

twitter. Trolls. If you want to

8:33

call them not. In that air, at

8:35

least they were a lot of

8:37

those whose can improve. Rwanda probes,

8:39

Gamay Twitter prose that would attack

8:41

anyone who says anything untoward about

8:43

to go Mais it's kind of

8:45

worth putting that into context. Just.

8:48

Weeks here says out within twenty twenty

8:50

and I ended up like riding as

8:52

after of my book my fourth time

8:55

we Giants focuses more generally on this

8:57

scheme. It was so mansions. What?

8:59

Happened in that case. And

9:01

that chapter of the. Birth

9:03

and like mine general reporting when

9:05

he's in the legal challenge against

9:08

the Uk. Deportation. The

9:10

Out against a Home Office. That's

9:12

the context of me being denied boarding

9:14

on the plane. again. I haven't been

9:16

told. Exactly why I was denied

9:19

breeding and I I didn't expect

9:21

it like it's not that I

9:23

actually expected this happen at all.

9:25

I was wondering about my accreditation,

9:27

like whether I'd have issues around

9:29

that, but I didn't expect to

9:31

be completely denied boarding and that

9:33

seems. To be quite unusual. Via.

9:36

In In like the. Broader. Context

9:38

with timing I think is

9:40

important easier. I mean, this.

9:42

Your denial of entry into

9:44

Rwanda happens around the same

9:47

time that the Uk government

9:49

was hotly debated discussing this

9:51

Rwanda bill that recently passed

9:53

the House of Commons. And

9:56

you, it seems to me,

9:58

at least in Bro. The

10:00

stroke said this bill is

10:02

bearing the least some resemblance

10:04

to the previous scheme that

10:06

you reported on this you

10:08

Libya Rwanda deal that brought

10:10

you to Rwanda in the

10:12

first place to report on

10:14

refugee and and migration issues.

10:16

Can you just take us

10:19

back and explain. What? Is

10:21

or was that deal between Libya,

10:23

the you in Rwanda and had

10:26

a at work and what was

10:28

the kind of plate of refugees

10:30

in that situation? I

10:33

mean just the underlying like what

10:35

you're saying that they seem to be

10:37

some similarities the British government politicians you

10:39

know, the Home Office. They have references

10:42

feel when they're arguing for what they're

10:44

trying to do. And it's Da Vinci.

10:46

This isn't just about me, I'm not

10:49

like. You. Know that they're fact that

10:51

I got denied a seems like part. Of a

10:53

much broader issue. That they were just not

10:55

be proper scrutiny of the consequence of this

10:57

year. And. I'd. Probably

10:59

have the journalist who has done

11:01

the most to extensively on this

11:03

you back I don't feel that

11:06

they keep referencing and my book

11:08

a wonder where while price the

11:10

top political price in the Uk

11:12

and has attacked her again specifically

11:14

on Rwanda the treatment of refugees

11:16

there so it like as says

11:18

actually seem very significant The fact

11:20

that I with fans right before

11:22

the Uk government passed. A

11:24

law saying you know Rwanda is safe.

11:27

At least apparently. Ban. Will.

11:29

That's why I wanted to have you

11:31

on. you know of any have read

11:34

your book we we've done a whole

11:36

as desert on your your both but

11:38

the ones are the ones have you

11:40

back on was the serious timing of

11:42

your rejection from Rwanda and know what

11:45

it says about a lot of things

11:47

about press freedom in Rwanda. about this

11:49

Uk Rwanda refugee deal as well. So.

11:52

Yeah, deceive us to the on

11:54

hates us appointed deal with basically

11:56

that a lot of refugees, asylum

11:58

seekers get trapped and. Maybe a

12:00

particularly since Twenty Seven scene. when

12:02

the you started supporting interceptions of

12:04

people, I see people who were

12:06

trying to. Reach Europe, And. So

12:09

what was happening and the is

12:11

happening is that many people who outside

12:13

world dictatorships you know who wins have

12:15

a right to international protection If

12:17

they could get onto territory where they

12:20

could claim that right. We're. Getting

12:22

trapped in detention centers because when

12:24

they use of her added Libyan

12:26

post threads. Intercept. Them

12:28

see. They. Often lock

12:30

them up indefinitely and these kind of

12:33

militia run detention centers and so you

12:35

had people who were spending year is

12:37

locked up and knows the answer is

12:39

an you know no legal right to

12:41

say see they can't go home because.

12:43

Their. Own be prosecuted or a you

12:45

know they lives will be in danger

12:48

and they were close to have at

12:50

least some kind of like legal resettlement

12:52

scheme that would allow them to read

12:54

safety and so initially people were taken

12:56

because you can't. You are proper kind of. Asylum.

12:59

Process cycle of the interviews and everything

13:01

in Libya when people are locked up

13:03

in detention centers run by militia as

13:05

the in the middle of a worse

13:07

an argument with that you need. To take

13:09

them to another place where they can undergo, they kind

13:12

of. For. Asylum process and then be

13:14

resettled to the safe country. And so

13:16

initially that was nice air and then

13:18

nice Air ran out of space. Effectively

13:20

answered and Rwanda came in and said

13:23

that they would see that. On

13:25

people sided been moved there in twenty nineteen.

13:27

that was when I went. I said it's

13:29

I actually was in touch with a lot

13:31

of the people who were moves already when

13:33

they were in Libya. They. Were them

13:35

both to Rwanda on. Spent.

13:38

Generally months there before they were

13:40

moved on to other countries. And

13:43

what was their experience in

13:45

Rwanda? I mean, was it

13:47

safe for them to have

13:49

their applications processed? What?

13:51

People need to understand about the idea

13:54

of safety is safer, different types of

13:56

risks always and have any contact and

13:58

what Rwanda is it. Pre K,

14:00

you know it's a dictatorship and so they're

14:02

said in fear is that come with being

14:04

in that type environment. So might not be

14:06

that they crime on the streets, but it

14:09

might be that you're very frightened that anything

14:11

you say could be used against you at

14:13

some particular time. There were even people

14:15

who refused to go because they were so frightened

14:17

to buy it at what are they see remains

14:19

there. They. Generally. Hopes are

14:22

understood that it was going to be temporary and

14:24

that they were going to be moved on to

14:26

other places. So with difference in the Uk deal

14:28

and it I mean he continues but it's difference,

14:30

the Uk deal and that. No. One

14:33

wanted to stay there. I. Remember when

14:35

I went out the first time?

14:37

It with November twenty nineteen. And

14:39

there was a lot of fear you know

14:42

and fear of like there might be in

14:44

for mans. I was only given media accreditation

14:46

tis I was actually told by officials that

14:48

they believe that I would write said things

14:50

about them. I still wasn't given access to

14:52

the cans that are B C I had

14:54

the contacts anyway so we met elsewhere but

14:57

they were waiting for about being seen with

14:59

me and. Been. Reported Edge you

15:01

know, ensues and belief that they're in for

15:03

me is everywhere in Rwanda that they couldn't

15:05

say bad things. That was. Generally.

15:08

The fear and I think again it you know

15:10

when you have refugees are asylum seekers. a lot

15:12

of them are actually fleeing. Oppression

15:14

and repression and prosecution they're

15:17

saying like environments where they

15:19

feel. That that's the risk that

15:21

you don't have freedom of speech, for example.

15:23

And to put people back again in a

15:26

context like that, it can be very, very

15:28

difficult for them. So.

15:30

Suits. Me I look at

15:33

this. You. Rwanda

15:35

scheme and it seems to

15:37

sit part of like a

15:39

broader a pattern that we're

15:41

seeing over the last several

15:43

years in which wealthier countries

15:45

seek to kind of outsource

15:47

be processing of asylum claims

15:49

like in the U S

15:51

we had for wow this

15:54

remain in Mexico policy where

15:56

potential would be applicants would

15:58

have to stay message. Before

16:00

the he claim asylum in the

16:02

U S, the Australians had seen

16:05

for a long time this policy

16:07

of keeping people on these like

16:09

barely inhabited Pacific islands where they

16:12

would ostensibly. Support. Their

16:14

claims. When you look at this

16:16

new Uk Rwanda deal I had

16:18

you. Understand it in

16:21

the broader picture of

16:23

how the world approaches

16:25

migration and refugee issues

16:27

today. It seems that

16:29

failed policies are happening incrementally and

16:31

they get site a trailer every

16:34

time. While the privilege than chasing

16:36

some each other has said. Bringing.

16:38

Nice policies and fancy. Push that button. a

16:40

lot of it where every time. Like

16:43

minus rating has my Si Se on

16:45

the eve and what they he was

16:47

doing particularly in the Central Mediterranean. with

16:49

it again a similar you're flushing people

16:51

back to the place where they don't

16:53

have. Rights. They can't speak as

16:56

their voices will be silenced. We went

16:58

actually know what happens to them. And.

17:00

At the same time spending huge

17:03

amounts of money in ways that

17:05

I have demonstrated to my reporting

17:07

profit. Dictatorships or militias are systems

17:09

that have passed people say other.

17:11

And it's interesting to contrast that

17:13

went like some of them for

17:16

a countries will. He then said

17:18

he died last month. Standing.

17:20

On the border with Sudan. And

17:22

it's a ties and people receive or

17:24

crossing the border every day. They weren't

17:26

even checking documents. One of the

17:29

ministries tell me they have an open door

17:31

policy that they understand people saying war and

17:33

need somewhere to go. And. That

17:35

was kind of is standing for me. You

17:38

know a lot of this yes framed

17:40

as a migration crisis from the perspective

17:42

of the wealthy country that is having

17:44

people arrive. and at that acts see

17:47

the scale of crises generally in the

17:49

world right now are so huge and

17:51

when we actually look at the countries

17:53

that are suffering them for example of

17:55

Sudan where the war as I said

17:57

now more than a year it's been

17:59

cold. The biggest assessment crisis and the

18:01

world's more than ten million people defaced.

18:04

And the latest I saw a was

18:06

one point nine million that have left

18:09

the country and crossed into other countries.

18:11

And you know that scale of suffering

18:13

is really? It's hard to understand,

18:15

but it's also like we need to recognize

18:18

that when that man of suffering exists a

18:20

the Rebels are gonna touch everywhere in the

18:22

world. And one other thing that's

18:24

important I think to say about the

18:26

Sudan were specifically is that the were

18:29

assessed the wrath and separate forces paramilitary

18:31

group One of the body that. Had.

18:33

Gone To War was actually said

18:35

to have been emboldened by Edu

18:37

Anti Migration funding because they were

18:39

it charged with dieting the border

18:41

After the he started putting pressure

18:43

on you done to them. it's

18:46

that number of people who were

18:48

heading towards Euro. So

18:50

giving birth Rwanda, you're at least

18:52

to me one of the absurdities

18:54

about this U K bill. Use

18:56

your the premise Again, the Rwanda

18:58

is safe. And yes, it is

19:00

like safe from street crime. It

19:02

is a very clean and orderly

19:05

place. If you've ever been there,

19:07

it's It's kind of disturbingly so.

19:09

and it's that way because it

19:11

is this police state. there is

19:13

no press freedom, journalists have been

19:15

detained and killed, opposition leaders have

19:17

been detained and killed. and the

19:19

cynicism. Of this Uk bill

19:22

is embedded in the fact

19:24

that Rwanda is to sit

19:26

in an unfree and unsafe

19:29

place. Again, it's just

19:31

that seems so clear to me that

19:33

again, this is another example of sending

19:35

people to a place where we actually

19:37

can't properly monitored the consequences of what

19:39

happens to them like what happens to

19:41

them, it's going to be. Sell.

19:44

Said true you know communication is

19:46

officials were fewer agencies and we

19:48

know that the Rwandan government wexler

19:50

west soon pure agencies and an

19:53

ice traditionally done that. And

19:55

as another example of people's

19:57

voices been silent. Your.

20:00

Point about the fact that there

20:02

really is no credible mechanism of

20:04

monitoring the impact of these deportations

20:06

because there is no serve independent

20:08

press freedom I say is publicists

20:10

part of a reason why the

20:12

Uk your opted to partner with

20:14

Rwanda? In this instance, Yeah.

20:17

I mean as s the I guess

20:19

that's not something they said that since

20:21

state are so so why Rwanda a

20:23

sense of partner with the you take

20:25

his Rwanda has been accused of using

20:27

these types of the alice kind of

20:29

laundry edmunds internationally so that other human

20:31

rights to be Since I ever lost

20:33

faith in Rwanda and also in the

20:35

Congo. Sally. Thank you

20:37

so much for your time and for your

20:40

I'm is reporting as always. Thank you for

20:42

saving me. To

20:52

spend show with for his by

20:54

me mark me on hold Berg

20:56

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20:58

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