0:02

Deeply Feeling Kids and Sibling Dynamics

0:05

I'm asked about these two things all the

0:07

time. What do I do? My

0:10

older kid is a deeply feeling kid. They

0:12

feel things intensely. They also have

0:14

intense reactions. And I can

0:17

deal with a lot of that. But when it

0:19

comes out at one of their siblings, when they're

0:22

hurtful with their words, when they're getting in

0:24

arguments all the time, when I notice my

0:26

younger kid's confidence taking a hit, then

0:29

I feel really stuck. This week,

0:31

I'm talking to a couple about deeply feeling

0:33

kids, birth order, sibling dynamics,

0:35

all at once. Hi, welcome.

0:40

Hello. Hi. Hello.

0:43

Let's jump in. Just one of you can start. Tell me

0:46

a little bit what's on your mind. Kind

0:48

of, we often have like a top issue

0:50

that feels burning. And then if you want,

0:52

you could also add on, hey, I'd really like to

0:54

get X, Y, or Z by the

0:56

end of our conversation. So I know how to

0:58

give you something helpful. So

1:00

we've got three children, two boys

1:03

and a girl, and our eldest, who has

1:05

just turned eight, he's

1:07

like super kind and

1:09

thoughtful, very diplomatic. Never wants to

1:11

kind of rock the boat. Very

1:13

kind of socially cautious. Loves

1:16

nature, loves science, not into sport

1:18

or anything like that. I'd

1:21

say kind of gross motor skills have always been a

1:23

bit more challenging. Yeah, he's more into

1:25

sort of like the quieter reading and

1:27

those sorts of activities. And

1:29

then our middle son, so his younger brother

1:32

is the opposite. He's like really

1:34

outgoing and confident. He's a real

1:36

entertainer. He generally finds

1:39

life easy in any situation. He

1:41

loves all sports and he's willing to practice

1:43

to kind of get good at things. And

1:47

essentially, it's becoming a

1:49

bit tricky because there

1:52

are things that our middle son can

1:54

now do that the eldest is not

1:56

able to do. And so that's kind

1:58

of causing some... Difficulties at

2:01

home. I'd say it kind of feels

2:03

a little bit like a side you

2:05

to for this before. How I'm a

2:07

little bit like the battle was almost

2:09

wrong and or eldest son can be

2:11

quite main and unkind to his younger

2:13

brother. He's like. Super. Kinds

2:15

of everybody else I literally have put him with.

2:17

he's got a little sister, he's. Just

2:19

accept any patient and. Kind to as.

2:23

But. He's just really struggles to say

2:25

or do anything nice a tool for

2:27

his younger brother. And it can

2:29

Just and essentially we would like your

2:31

has a helping us I guess find

2:33

ways to support their relationships of them.

2:36

Are eldest kind of has. Enough

2:38

self confidence to not be affected by his

2:41

younger brother. As much an ulcer to protect.

2:43

Our middle son from this kind of

2:46

constant belittling that he's kind of experiencing

2:48

at home. So.

2:50

I want to say this, You know I

2:52

think I can tell from the way you

2:55

describe did this is so normal like nothing

2:57

is wrong with an older kid. When her

2:59

doing this and having kids were you say

3:01

wow It's like my kid can say nothing

3:03

nice to the other child and parents as

3:05

they like. I mean it like literally. Nothing.

3:09

Really make sense is a

3:12

siblings. Feels. Like they

3:14

represent said everything that's threatening way. It

3:16

would be like having a friend who

3:18

everywhere you're around with them it's like

3:20

they get all the attention. They get

3:22

a promotion, they get this house they

3:24

got the new card is all the

3:26

time and something I can you be

3:28

happy for your friend accepted my been

3:30

a friend. It's a sibling you're sharing,

3:33

your parents let's see, are inherently competing

3:35

for attention and love and good enough

3:37

minutes to that's have siblings unconsciously deals

3:39

I imagine someone saying to me batty

3:41

like can't you just say something nice.

3:43

And and I be like. The

3:45

guy would have them read Billie choice words, tough.

3:48

To say that. And so I

3:50

did one normalize. That's plus, I'm an

3:52

adult, seemingly with better coping skills than

3:54

your child when you have a sibling.

3:56

To does really represent. and

3:59

not only different Like brings to

4:01

life so many qualities and

4:03

so many achievements that at least a part

4:05

of you yearns for and doesn't have Yet

4:08

or maybe ever it's just really really complicated and

4:10

I'm sure for the two of you It's it's hard

4:12

for you to because you're probably managing a lot

4:14

of conflict and I think Unconsciously when we have kids

4:16

were like oh my kids are gonna be friends

4:18

and like then like oh Not

4:21

really happening not right now. I just also want

4:23

to separate what's happening today from everything that could

4:25

happen years later You didn't even mention this but

4:27

I think it happens for all of us to

4:29

me like the fast-forward Error is the number one

4:31

thing we do as a parent is right Oh,

4:33

my kids are never gonna be friends or the other

4:35

one's never gonna feel confident themselves or he's always

4:37

gonna have a brother Who's better than him and then

4:39

like they're gonna be 18 and like they're gonna be

4:42

fighting even as teenagers like and then what ends

4:44

up Happening is we intervene today based on all of

4:46

our anxiety and storytelling about the future Instead

4:48

of like just what's happening in front of us

4:50

And so I know for me and this happens

4:53

with my kids to just catching myself and having

4:55

a name for that Like oh, there's that fast-forward

4:57

error. Okay, it's not 2035. It's 2023 Right.

5:02

Okay, my kids are not 40

5:04

and you know, whatever. They're like

5:06

eight years old is really helpful

5:08

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Here's to Garanamol. Okay,

6:21

so the first thing I want to jump into, and I

6:23

think this is going to be especially helpful for the older

6:25

child who I'm just going to call Alex, is

6:28

really separating feelings from

6:31

behavior. This to me is

6:33

important across the board in parenting, but it's

6:35

especially important when we have a kid who's really,

6:37

really struggling. And it starts with

6:39

us separating those and saying, okay, what

6:41

is a feeling? What is a

6:43

behavior? And then also

6:46

layering on all feelings are important. All

6:51

feelings are good. All feelings are allowed. And

6:54

behaviors are not allowed. That's

6:56

really, really important. And you see my hands

6:58

as I'm talking, and there's something

7:01

really important to kids when you're explaining this to

7:03

visualize that, to be like, look at one of

7:05

your hands, there's feelings over here, there's behaviors over

7:07

here. There's not one feeling you're ever going to

7:09

have that we're going to tell you not to

7:12

have. There's not one feeling that's even

7:14

bad. And kids like hearing this, feelings are information. And

7:18

as we talk about with school, you don't

7:21

have to agree with all the information you learned,

7:23

but it's important to listen to information,

7:25

to learn about information. All

7:27

information is like worthy, right?

7:30

And the feelings in your body

7:32

are information. I'm just going

7:34

to pause here. Tell me like your

7:36

reaction to that. I think

7:39

because we have some feelings.

7:42

And yes, so thank you for that. That's

7:44

something we've been doing with Alex

7:47

with our oldest child. I

7:49

think his feelings are so deep that

7:51

sometimes he needs help expressing those. So

7:55

yeah, I guess it'd be helpful

7:57

if you have any tips or

7:59

suggestions. suggestions for how we can help

8:01

him voice those because he kind

8:04

of clams up as well. You know

8:06

he's having these big feelings and he's

8:08

struggling through things. But when

8:11

you ask him what's going on, it's

8:13

even a questioning that

8:15

can really make him clam up.

8:17

Okay, quiet. So one

8:19

thing is helping him to articulate those things

8:21

and express himself. But

8:23

that seems joined with the

8:26

confidence that he

8:28

gets from doing something well.

8:31

And then one of the compounding issues

8:34

I think is that so

8:36

he's at this really interesting point where

8:38

he's discovered the things that he's really

8:40

into gardening and craft and everything

8:43

you watch on TV and everyone in the

8:46

playground wants to be a superhero

8:48

or a football player. So it's really

8:50

hard for him to put down the

8:52

things that he knows he doesn't enjoy and that's

8:55

not him and to celebrate the things that is

8:57

him. Those are the

8:59

two things I think complicate things. Okay,

9:03

so yes, the foundation is really important for us to set and

9:05

it's really important to set with your kids because it's going to

9:07

be something that you can refer back to like, hey, remember when

9:09

we were talking about that difference? I would suggest talking to him

9:11

about that and he might look at you and say like, hey,

9:13

can I have a snack now or like, I don't want to talk about

9:15

this. That's fine. That's like he's just saying

9:17

I'm titrating this conversation. I'm done now. So

9:21

he feels very jealous

9:24

of his better. Okay, and

9:26

I think even in the realm of all

9:28

feelings are okay. Jealousy is one

9:30

of the hardest feelings. Like I know a lot of

9:32

families are like all feelings. Okay, like except for jealousy,

9:34

that one's kind of really difficult, right? It's really important

9:37

to normalize that jealousy is a feeling we have when

9:39

we essentially see someone else have things we want or

9:41

have things that we think we should want. And it

9:44

sounds like your middle child, like he is that kid.

9:46

Like he just like does the thing

9:48

and like he's like out there and right.

9:50

So I think he sees that and that

9:52

makes sense. One of the things just in

9:54

terms of where I'd start Is I'd

9:56

approach Alex after you have one of these. The

10:00

idea. You know air these moments. When

10:02

and you have to say anything if even given

10:04

permission while I'm talking of wanna look into your

10:06

pillow you can do that. Kind of giving kids

10:09

permission to have some distance allows them to taken

10:11

our closeness and ice. There are. Sometimes

10:13

when it's really, really

10:15

hard. To. Be pizza other brother.

10:18

It's. Really hard to be older brother and

10:20

I think there's actually a lot of those times.

10:23

And if I were you. Are. Drilled as

10:25

I am wife and I think there are

10:27

moments. What? all of that just get so

10:29

big and so high that it just comes

10:32

out in the is really not records. And

10:34

let me be clear Alex like you're good

10:36

to. We. Love you and good kids

10:38

sometimes say not funny things and I think they

10:40

understand why. And so here's some things you can

10:43

do going forward. I'm gonna have some time with

10:45

you alone at four pm. whatever works around or

10:47

one of these are going to was just going

10:49

to be us. Not only I'm gonna let you.

10:52

Have soup Want you? To

10:55

say all the not nice things

10:57

in your brain. About be.

11:00

Like all of them. I can write

11:02

that down. I can to plus and here are the

11:04

things. I'm not gonna say that you. That's.

11:06

Not nice. Ultimate say that you can't say

11:08

that and the say that I'm also not

11:10

going to say oh, The unlimited repeated

11:12

not. And the say that here's some the

11:15

things I will say back to. Her:

11:17

You. Keep doing. Any

11:20

other ones And there. it is actually really

11:23

important that you have a space. Where.

11:25

You can say these things. And

11:27

we need to do that like actually more

11:30

pro actively. I know that's kind of weird

11:32

that you're saying we bomber tablet You want

11:34

me to success. We. Want you to

11:36

say those things to? Us.

11:39

And. That is going to go hand in

11:41

hand with something else for. Me to be clear about what

11:43

that is. Just

11:45

really not gonna let. You. See

11:47

those things to pete me more and I

11:50

one explain why. I

11:52

know you might think that's for pizza benefit. Lucky

11:54

son. Hear those things. It's kind

11:56

of is that Alec think you're smart. Kids

11:58

are going to understand. I

12:00

think of actually equally if not more. For your benefit.

12:03

Because. You are a good kid and

12:05

we know at the end of the day it

12:08

doesn't end up feeling good t you. To.

12:10

Watch yourself. Say. These things

12:12

and our number one job as

12:14

your parent. Is. To keep

12:17

he says. Forget. Be modified, not

12:19

talk about be as. To keep

12:21

you safe and so we're going

12:23

to invite these comments to us

12:25

very pro actively and of you

12:27

want to get creative and you

12:29

the mean a thing you ever

12:31

said will be like wow Nine

12:33

added tenure wow allows pretty that's

12:35

pretty extreme updates and lungs. When

12:38

you're with your brother. Where

12:41

does not going to let those things and what

12:43

does that mean? Like runoff they start being said

12:45

we might have we met actually like pick you

12:47

up and carried your room and they are going

12:49

to say them to us. We might move Pete

12:51

away just so he doesn't He or them and

12:54

you don't hear yourself saying them. And so those

12:56

are the two things were. Going to do have

12:58

a more to say about that, but tell me

13:00

your reaction to that intervention. I.

13:04

Really love that because it fails. I

13:06

I think what we've kind of slipped

13:08

into eve when it's been happening is.

13:11

Saying. Him or when he say that to

13:13

him. As in a but some kind of

13:15

sulfur and then it feels like with

13:17

sort of punishing him in a way

13:19

through sort of telling him off as

13:21

isn't it becomes harder for him said

13:23

I think the approach it feels like

13:25

it's it's really protecting him and giving

13:27

him us I space. Yeah.

13:30

And is recognizing that were. Say.

13:32

I guess seeing him and understanding that

13:35

it's really hard. I mean he does

13:37

really. Struggled. Talk about and

13:39

need some of the my says with us for his

13:41

i think. Just having us say that

13:43

he's got that. Freedom that space in the up

13:46

since he still and the it's where he's not

13:48

getting in trouble. Always have an episode of Raw

13:50

think it's very freeing. Yeah.

13:52

And. I'll be bold. Okay, so this is my kid.

13:55

And they were like know mom with and

13:57

wanna say anything like I would see my.

14:00

helping like, it's

14:02

like always first swim

14:04

class. It's like so annoying.

14:06

I think you can do it in a way

14:08

that your kid kind of knows

14:11

you're not like trash talking to your

14:13

other child, but it's really almost like

14:15

a form of play in this way.

14:18

And I do think there's a lot of wisdom in

14:20

the phrase if you can't beat them, join them. In

14:22

a way, I think when kids say things, we

14:25

often come at them and like, you can't

14:27

say that instead of like, where can they

14:29

say that? To whom can they say that?

14:31

And where can they not say

14:33

that? Because if there's a force within him,

14:36

there's this force to express the feeling through

14:38

mean words. Expressing jealousy through

14:40

mean words is a way of

14:42

basically saying, I feel vulnerable and

14:45

I would rather take that vulnerability inside

14:47

me and turn it in to something

14:49

more aggressive so you feel as bad

14:51

as I feel. I would rather

14:54

transfer my vulnerability to my brother and try to make

14:56

him feel bad. So I don't have to feel bad.

14:58

The truth is adults do this all the time

15:00

too. And one

15:02

way of starting to shift

15:04

that because what we wanna get him to, it

15:06

just takes time. He'll get there and it takes

15:09

time is we want to be able

15:11

to own our own vulnerable emotions. We're able to say, we

15:13

probably don't say it to our brother at the time, but

15:15

we might pull a parent aside and say, they'd

15:18

say like, it's so annoying that he's always first, like I

15:20

hate it. I have a hard time feeling good about myself

15:23

when I'm swimming with him. That's the best it gets. I

15:26

don't think we can expect our kids to be like,

15:28

when I'm swimming with my brother who always gets first,

15:30

I'm just so proud of him. I just love him

15:32

so much. Nobody says that. The best it gets is

15:35

being able to own your own vulnerability and regulate it,

15:37

which of course is the thing that makes space

15:39

for happiness for others and

15:41

generosity and empathy and all those things,

15:44

but that just comes later. And the

15:46

first step to being able

15:48

to own your own vulnerable emotions is

15:52

actually containing the

15:54

anger and kind of envy

15:56

essentially that comes out. And by doing this,

15:58

you're saying that can live. here. And we

16:01

won't let it live here. And instead

16:04

of now these comments coming out at like

16:06

inopportune times and they probably just come out

16:08

with like explosions from his body, we

16:11

are like kind of taming

16:13

the potential volcano, which

16:16

really sets the stage for so

16:19

many other kind of higher order

16:21

regulation strategies. Maybe this

16:23

isn't something to be concerned about, but

16:25

I'm just thinking, I

16:28

guess my only reservation with it is if

16:31

he then told his younger

16:33

brother this

16:35

is what I do and that mommy and daddy want me

16:38

to say these mean things about you. And

16:41

I think this can go hand in hand with talking to

16:43

Pete and being like, first of all, what I would say

16:45

to him also time to time is like, I

16:48

know your brother loves you. I know that deep down.

16:51

And I know it's

16:53

also hard for him to have a younger brother who

16:55

does so many things so well. And I want to

16:57

be clear. That's not your fault. We love you. It's

17:00

so awesome that you do so many of these things. It

17:02

is hard for your older brother and it's not okay

17:04

for him to say mean things to you about it.

17:06

That is so not okay. Those are his feelings and

17:09

he can't put them on you in that way. And

17:11

so I want to be honest, right

17:13

now he's having a hard time. And

17:15

so we're working with him. We're going to let

17:17

him say some of those things to us, not

17:20

because they're true, but because

17:22

sometimes we have to get things

17:24

out of our body to be able to show

17:27

someone care and love and affection, which is something

17:29

you deserve from him. And so we are going

17:31

to be doing that. And we're going to be

17:33

taking even more seriously the times he says that

17:36

to you. And you'll see that the impact

17:38

is truly when we do

17:40

allow ourselves to kind of let

17:43

out seem, we don't

17:45

have that explode out of us

17:47

as often. So I actually would anticipate Pete

17:49

is going to be the biggest beneficiary of

17:52

this. And I think also, I don't know if I'll

17:54

say that, I can't believe you're letting him say this to you.

17:56

Or, you know, I would say to my kids, I am. And

17:58

look, when there's a time in your life. when you're

18:00

really having trouble with someone. I promise

18:02

you, I'll listen to all of those

18:04

things from you as well. That's something we'll do in

18:07

this family. Like you can expect me and dad, you can

18:09

expect both of us to be people that

18:12

you can always talk to and express yourself

18:14

to so that we can help

18:16

you figure out ways to

18:18

express yourself effectively to

18:21

those people. To me

18:23

that sounds brilliant because part of it

18:25

is is affirming deep

18:28

feelings that he has. And

18:30

obviously it's only when you affirm

18:32

something that you give them permission to

18:34

hold it and to explore it. So rather

18:36

than push it away and not

18:39

legitimize it, not allow it, you're

18:42

saying this is a real struggle. That

18:45

sounds fantastic. I guess

18:48

what my question would be, is

18:50

there a danger that by

18:53

legitimizing those thoughts and those

18:55

words, that becomes

18:57

the kind of narrative that they begin to spin.

18:59

And then, so I'm thinking

19:02

about Alex and how he

19:05

spends a lot of time in his head. So once

19:07

we've said it's okay for you to say these things

19:09

to us, could that develop

19:11

other behavior that is not

19:14

so positive? Look, to be honest, it's

19:16

definitely like a non-traditional approach. It's not like I often

19:18

say this and parents are like, okay, amazing, moving on.

19:20

They're like, wait, I have some concerns. To me, the

19:22

places is usually useful. And parents are like, all

19:24

the other things we're trying to do, they're like,

19:27

they're clearly not working. This thing is very powerful.

19:29

These feelings are forces. And so if they don't

19:31

have a place to go and where we teach

19:33

kids to manage them, they will just come out.

19:36

And so I think this is something

19:38

to track. And I think as parents, we

19:40

can tell when something, it's like,

19:43

oh, wait, this is like turned into something

19:45

else. And I think they should

19:47

have a time limit. I don't think it should be

19:49

there for 45 minutes just being like, yeah, like keep

19:52

going, feed the work. We hate him. We wish

19:54

he was never in our family. And you have

19:56

to say it back, you know, again, like

19:58

you don't have to join in. and all the

20:00

words, but you're kind of saying, these things need to come

20:02

out of you and we will be a container for you.

20:04

And I'd say, you could write them down, we'll

20:07

be there for five minutes. And then I think

20:09

a kind of script or line to have that's

20:11

helpful is, hey, we did this, I'll come back

20:13

tomorrow and this time is over

20:15

today and we're gonna move to something else because

20:17

I know there's actually so many things about you

20:19

that are so interesting and important that have nothing

20:22

to do with your brother. And I wanna make

20:24

sure those things get air time today. Tell me

20:26

about recess. Tell me

20:28

about the art project you were doing in

20:30

school. And then you can make that transition.

20:32

But I also think the question speaks to

20:34

something really important. The difference

20:36

between hearing and

20:39

kind of validating or trying

20:43

to understand versus

20:45

agreeing and condoning and

20:47

encouraging. I think we conflate those

20:49

two things a lot. You're

20:52

already in the space of these words. They just happen

20:54

to happen around his brother too. But you saying this

20:56

is a place I can hear you, this is a

20:58

place where you can say these things. I

21:00

think we worry that what we end up saying

21:02

to our kids is, yeah, like it's awesome to

21:04

say this, you should just talk about everyone this

21:06

way. I actually don't fear that.

21:09

I really don't. I think that kids can

21:11

hold the difference. I really, really do. And

21:13

you can even, when you present this to

21:15

him say, because look, I actually think that

21:17

one of our big jobs is gonna be

21:19

to help you feel good about yourself, which

21:22

I know we're gonna help you do. While you

21:24

have a brother who's kind of tricky to have as

21:26

a brother. And this is

21:28

where we're at right now. You have a lot of these

21:30

things that you wanna say. We're not gonna let them be

21:32

said in front of your brother for both of your sake.

21:34

And so we're gonna try to say, let's see what happens

21:36

for a week. You can make it very time bound, which

21:39

allows you to say after like, whoa, that went off the

21:41

rails. But I really don't think that's what it's gonna be.

21:47

If you've been with me for a

21:50

while, you've probably heard me mention deeply

21:52

feeling kids. And if this is the

21:54

first time you're hearing that concept, that's okay. And

21:56

I'm excited for you. These

21:58

are kids who truly. feel things

22:00

more intensely than other kids and

22:03

as a result they have meltdowns

22:05

and outbursts that are also

22:08

more intense. These are

22:10

also kids who do not respond

22:12

well to typical parenting strategies. You

22:14

offer support, you say something like

22:16

I see you're mad and

22:19

it actually makes things worse.

22:22

As kids get older things can

22:25

get harder and I'm so

22:27

excited to share that I will be hosting

22:29

a brand new live Deeply Feeling

22:32

Kid workshop tailored for

22:34

older kids. You've

22:36

asked for this for a long time and

22:38

I'm so excited to be able to deliver.

22:41

It will be held on Wednesday

22:43

February 28th at 2 p.m.

22:45

Eastern and of course it

22:48

will be recorded if you're not able to make it

22:50

live. Join Good Inside

22:53

membership to access this workshop and

22:55

the recording and every other tool

22:57

you need to parent your Deeply

23:00

Feeling Kid with confidence. There's

23:02

a link in the show notes for more or

23:04

go to goodinside.com for more information

23:07

about what you get with membership.

23:16

Okay there's a couple other things I want to share. I

23:19

would love one of you to kind of

23:21

take on the role of telling stories to

23:23

Alex about a time in your

23:25

life when you were younger when you had someone

23:27

you were really jealous of. Anything

23:29

a child feels alone in is

23:33

more likely to be acted out in behavior

23:35

because if our feelings are always seeking connection

23:37

and our experiences are seeking connection inside our

23:39

bodies well if they don't find that then

23:41

they actually have extra force and they have to come out. And

23:44

so this is a way we're kind of containing it

23:46

or giving the feelings that kind of home. But to

23:49

me and I'm gonna put this in quotes like did

23:51

I ever tell you about the time is just an

23:53

amazing sentence starter for every parent to have in

23:55

their toolbox. For example it might sound like this.

23:57

Did I ever tell you about the time? You

24:00

know, I played soccer as a kid. Well, my

24:02

best friend at the time was, you know,

24:05

was Raj. And Raj

24:07

was like really

24:09

nice and like really

24:11

popular and really smart and like the

24:14

best soccer player. And he was

24:16

like a good friend to me. Oh, so annoying.

24:18

Right. Like all those things. Raj. Anyway,

24:21

there was this time that

24:24

we were all out and

24:26

he said to me, hey, did you see that goal I scored? And

24:31

do you want to know what I said back? Do you

24:33

want to know what I said? And any

24:35

kid is going to be like, what'd you say? And

24:37

he'd be like, well, do you think

24:39

I said something like nice? Like, oh,

24:42

I thought that was a great goal. Do

24:44

you think I said that? And the first time

24:46

he did this, I could be like, probably. And

24:48

this is like so beautiful. Such a

24:50

powerful opportunity to be like, oh,

24:53

no. No, I didn't say

24:55

that. You want to guess again or do you want

24:57

me to tell you? I don't want somebody like tell me. Okay.

25:01

Well, what I ended up saying to him

25:03

was, oh, yeah, my

25:05

goal was basically open. Like

25:07

anyone could have scored. That's what

25:09

I said. First of all, if

25:11

nothing happens after this and just that, I promise you

25:14

it'll be the most powerful moment of your

25:16

child's day. Because what you're

25:18

actually saying to a kid, which you can't

25:20

actually say in words, you can only say

25:22

through storytelling is you're

25:24

not so bad because you see

25:26

me. And I'm like the adult you

25:28

revere because I'm her parent. And

25:30

so you inherently believe I am good and capable.

25:34

And if I essentially did the

25:36

same things you did when you

25:38

were younger, like it's proof to you

25:40

that you are also a good kid who's going to

25:42

figure this out, except you can't say that. And the

25:44

story says all of this. So

25:47

before I go further, tell me who could take that on, who could really

25:49

sell it? Or maybe you're like, that literally was my life. I

25:52

had a friend named Raj who was an amazing, perfect

25:54

person. And what do you think about that? I

25:58

think either one of us. good. And

26:01

I think that that's a really great, a great

26:03

idea. And I think he was supposed to get

26:05

that and we'll have to

26:07

have a word. Do we need, can

26:09

both of us do that? Or is it

26:12

suggested? Yeah, you totally can. You totally can. You

26:14

know, and parents will be like, but what

26:16

if I don't have the story? Am I lying to my

26:18

kid? To me, it feels like any other form of play

26:20

with our kids. Like when we say like, right

26:22

now, a dog in a car, I don't think we're

26:24

like, wait, but you know, I'm not a dog, right?

26:27

Like, it's just play, right? So I think we can

26:29

give ourselves permission. I've never medicated. Like, I don't know

26:31

if that happened. You're just telling me that story to

26:33

help me feel less alone in my plate. They never

26:35

say that they just buy it. But but there might

26:37

be if they're like, wow, that's weird. Mom told me

26:39

the same thing, you know, the same day. So just

26:41

like planet, but sure, you both can. And where this

26:44

gets to is I can't even tell you and this

26:46

is not just in my home. This is in every single

26:48

home of any family I've worked with who starts to do

26:50

this. Two things. When

26:53

one of my kids, he's older now,

26:55

but when he was younger, used to be in these

26:57

like massive tantrums and he would like throw things in

26:59

like kind of be a little destructive, it'd be like

27:01

pure containment. The only thing

27:04

that would help him get out of that moment is

27:06

if I started to say, oh, did I ever tell

27:08

you? Wait, I cannot tell you, you do not

27:10

even wanted to know and he would go, what?

27:13

What? Because I think he was in a spiral of

27:15

feeling like a bad kid. And the

27:18

idea that I could kind of match his

27:20

moment immediately, like

27:22

it started to calm him down.

27:24

It was so powerful. The second

27:26

thing is I promise you, Alex

27:28

will start to say to you, did

27:31

you ever say something like that to Raj? And

27:33

meanwhile, you have to remember the names because you'll

27:35

be like, wait, who's Raj? Right? Like my kids,

27:37

it's so interesting. Like there's so many

27:40

extensions of this. I'll be like, wait,

27:42

did you ever steal something by

27:44

accident or like take something that you knew wasn't yours,

27:46

but you really wanted or I still

27:48

remember I live in New York City, right? And

27:51

I remember when my daughter was scootering and fell

27:53

and like skinned her knee and

27:55

she literally was like, Mom, when you were

27:57

six, did you ever skin your knee scootering

27:59

down? Broadway and I was like, yes, yes,

28:01

I did. You know, because I think they're just

28:04

saying, tell me I'm not alone. And that's actually

28:06

the only thing I need. So I think that's

28:08

gonna be so powerful. And the last

28:10

idea I wanna get to, kind of as

28:12

a form of a boundary, but

28:15

I think separating your boys and activities

28:17

whenever is possible. I would not run

28:19

circles around it. Like sometimes you're like,

28:21

they're in the same soccer class and

28:23

like, if not, I have to be

28:25

here for five hours. So I'm just

28:28

gonna, you know, deal with it. But

28:30

it's really hard to expect our kid

28:32

to learn how to regulate jealousy when

28:34

they're flooded with jealousy. And

28:36

it's like, we can't learn to regulate a feeling

28:38

when we're flooded by it, right? It is kind

28:40

of like, if someone's like, I really wanna drink

28:42

less alcohol, like we're not like, cool, let's talk

28:45

about it at a bar. You're like, okay, like,

28:47

well, let's talk about it like over coffee or

28:49

something, right? So I would think about that. Like

28:51

the separation, it's not because we

28:53

want to forever have this not in

28:55

his face. Like there is just a

28:57

reality component, but while he's building up

28:59

these skills, I think as many

29:02

opportunities as you can, again, not to completely

29:04

curate his life. I don't believe in that.

29:06

But here and there in the margin, you

29:08

know what? We're gonna do soccer separately. During

29:10

Alex's play day, I'm gonna, and Pete can

29:12

actually go to his friend's house. So like

29:14

he's out of the house, right? I

29:16

would really lean into that, thinking about

29:19

it kind of like Alex

29:21

is in a training pool, learning some skills. And he

29:23

will get to the point where he can be in the

29:25

big pool and then in the ocean, but only if he

29:27

kind of works on the skills in a safer place first.

29:31

Yeah, no, that makes sense. We've actually

29:34

just literally today, actually. So

29:36

our youngest son is gonna be doing

29:38

football on a Saturday and we're

29:40

gonna take our older

29:43

boy to climbing instead. So they've got

29:45

something tightly separate. That's a

29:47

great example of that. So look, there's

29:49

obviously a million other things, but I actually

29:51

think there's, I just wanna like almost review it for my

29:53

own sake, right? So just remembering

29:55

the feelings versus behavior, he's gonna

29:58

obviously feel jealous. And that's okay.

30:00

And our goal is to help him learn

30:03

to manage and regulate jealousy, which

30:05

is actually what sets the foundation for those things

30:07

we really want in our kids, them to get

30:09

along, for them to be happy. But

30:11

if you think about the jar of emotions we all have,

30:14

the distressing ones take up space

30:17

from the kind of higher level ones,

30:19

unless we learn to regulate them. And then they almost take

30:22

up a smaller space in the jar. And then you're like,

30:24

oh, look, he

30:26

said something nice about his brother. But that

30:28

doesn't come until like the second stage. So

30:30

I think that's the foundation to think about.

30:32

I really do think there's something about this

30:34

dual strategy of inviting in the comments in

30:36

a boundaried way, and then separately,

30:39

like almost telling him, and if it happens in

30:41

front of your brother, here's what we're doing. And

30:43

I think the key there is for both of

30:45

your protection. It's actually equally as protective for him.

30:47

We forget about the kid who's out of control.

30:49

It's protective for him to kind

30:51

of separate them. Then this

30:53

kind of storytelling as a way of majorly, I

30:55

say like, de-shaming. I actually think that's gonna be

30:58

the one you lean into the most. And then

31:00

what you're already doing, which is like on the

31:02

margin, separating and thinking like he's learning these skills

31:04

in a training pool. So he can kind of

31:06

quote swim in, slightly

31:09

more advanced waters over time. Yeah,

31:11

no, that's so helpful. Thank you. You

31:14

two really like have got

31:16

this. And this is, let me just also

31:18

say like the change you're looking for, like

31:20

it's not gonna happen in five days. To

31:23

me, the change we underestimate is like, as soon

31:25

as we have like a slightly different framework or

31:27

something and like maybe a few new

31:29

things to try. I don't know if it feels this way

31:31

to you, but I often like immediately feel a little better

31:33

as a parent, even though nothing's changed. Cause like, I just

31:35

have a little more pep in my step or like

31:37

a little more hope. And I have total

31:40

conviction that this is gonna be something that you guys

31:42

make a lot of progress on. Oh,

31:45

thank you. I think the fact that we can

31:47

see what he's like with his sister and everybody

31:50

else. I know that that's

31:52

who he like really is kind of naturally.

31:55

So it's, yeah, I think it's just

31:57

giving us the tools to kind of help guide

31:59

him through those. very difficult

32:01

feeling. And I

32:04

guess we have this kind of two-pronged approach at

32:06

the moment. So one is trying to

32:09

build up his confidence in the things that

32:11

he's identified which is quite new, so

32:14

and to really celebrate those. But

32:17

then at the same time all the things

32:19

that we've discussed, it's so

32:21

hard to, we're with my

32:24

family this weekend and

32:26

my sister has four boys and

32:28

so the whole day was

32:30

orientated around football. They came in for a

32:32

drink and then it was back out to

32:34

people and they came in for cake and

32:36

there's a back out. And each

32:39

time I was longing for

32:41

the game to finish because you

32:43

just knew he was finding it so hard,

32:46

almost staring away from those moments

32:48

that could trigger some conflict and

32:51

put him in a

32:53

space where he doesn't feel confident. But

32:55

then we're trying to figure out how

32:57

we can kind of get him to be

33:00

more confident in the things that he loves.

33:02

But the challenge is that

33:04

no one celebrates that apart from us

33:06

and him. So I think

33:08

everything we've talked about is

33:11

actually critical to building Alex's confidence. I

33:13

wouldn't think about it as separate. Here's

33:15

why. To me confidence isn't feeling

33:17

like the best at something. It's feeling like

33:19

it's okay to be you even when you're

33:21

not the best at something. And

33:24

confidence is really all about our relationship with

33:26

our feelings. It's about feeling like it's okay

33:28

to be me even when I'm feeling this

33:30

way and I kind of trust my feelings

33:32

and I know this and to me the

33:34

most confident people by the time they're adults

33:36

are just able to regulate the widest ranges

33:38

of experiences. And so this is going to

33:40

sound maybe paradoxical but I actually

33:42

think a kid like Alex has

33:45

more of an opportunity, not right

33:47

away, but to build what is true confidence for the

33:49

course of his lifetime than a kid like Pete. I

33:51

worry more about kids who have like cheap wins all

33:53

the time because that's not confidence. They're actually just always

33:55

used to feeling like the best and we know how

33:57

those kids do when they're 20s to 90s. I'm

34:00

not trying to worry about Pete, don't worry, he's fine. But just

34:02

to make an argument, sometimes those kids are

34:04

like 25 and they're like, wait a second,

34:06

I'm not really good at something and not

34:08

everyone wants to be my friend. And then

34:10

there's like emptiness. And we've seen that. So

34:12

if you think about confidence in a different

34:14

way, telling him it's okay to feel jealous,

34:16

we would feel annoyed about a brother like

34:19

that too. To me, that's actually going to

34:21

do more to really build his confidence than

34:23

saying like, you're amazing at woodworking and like,

34:25

we love your wood shop stuff or whatever

34:27

he's interested in. That to me feels almost

34:30

like praise, which I actually think this

34:32

is a whole other conversation. I actually think praise

34:34

often can almost get in our way of building

34:36

confidence because it's orient stuff to be

34:38

like, what are people saying about me as opposed

34:40

to gazing in and can I learn to

34:43

trust myself? And so with the football example

34:45

with the family, what I'd say is like,

34:47

hey, I don't know about you, but I think it's

34:49

kind of annoying that like everyone just like always plays

34:51

football here. And like, there's so many other activities in

34:54

the world. And there's so many other things people could

34:56

do to have fun. And it's kind of annoying sometimes

34:58

to be in a family that like they kind of

35:00

just pick one and it's kind of the one that

35:02

like Pete likes to like extra annoying. I don't know

35:04

if you feel like that, but I kind of do

35:07

that to me is going to be confidence building for

35:09

him because he is probably feeling our way. And when

35:11

he hears you say that he's like, wait, I can

35:13

trust this feeling. It's okay to feel this feeling. My

35:15

parents aren't afraid of this feeling. They don't think I'm

35:17

a bad person for feeling this way. That's actually very

35:20

conscious and inspiring. I also think it's

35:22

amazing to find activities he really loves, but I

35:24

wouldn't separate them. To me, they're really

35:26

one in the same. And to me, the most

35:28

confidence building moments for kids come

35:30

in the hardest times. Those

35:33

kids, when we kind of manage those moments in a

35:35

way that we really do feel like we crushed it

35:37

as a parent, not because we made our kid happy,

35:39

just because we actually feel like we like got that

35:41

in that moment with them. That's going to be thing

35:44

that they like in their bodies remember when they're 20,

35:46

because they're going to be in a group of friends

35:48

talking about something and everyone like loves talking about it.

35:50

And they're going to be able to say to themselves,

35:52

like, I don't even know what these people are talking

35:55

about. Well, that's okay. I felt othered before. I felt

35:57

different before. I'm still valuable. I'm still lovable. Like, I

35:59

can I might even have the conference to say, hey, sorry,

36:01

can you slow down? I actually have no idea what you're all talking

36:03

about. Can you explain that movie to me? Which

36:05

to me is the essence of confidence. It's not necessarily

36:08

being the one in the center

36:10

of the conversation. I just

36:12

would really like bring those things together and

36:14

say this is actually all about building this

36:16

confidence. We don't have to think about

36:18

them separately. That's really helpful.

36:21

Okay, well, you two are an absolute

36:23

pleasure to talk to and I hope you

36:25

do kind of send an update on how things

36:27

are going. And so in a week, if

36:29

you want to say problem solved, I would appreciate getting

36:31

that email. Not then? It's

36:34

not a timeframe. We're looking at a week. Yeah,

36:36

yeah, a week. I said it wouldn't be tomorrow,

36:38

you know, but maybe seven days we can knock

36:40

this out. No, no, no, nothing's gonna happen in

36:42

a week. Nothing's gonna change in a week, except

36:44

you guys will actually feel sturdy and confident. And

36:46

I bet you have a couple of moments that

36:48

we have that like, I don't even know

36:50

the name for it, but I feel like we have these moments with our kids that we

36:53

know will ladder up to the big stuff. You just feel

36:55

it. I actually do predict you'll have a bunch

36:57

of those moments the next week. And I think

36:59

those moments are what matters. So I think that

37:01

will change. Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you. All

37:03

right, thank you guys so much. Thank you. Thank

37:06

you. Thank you. Thanks

37:13

for listening. To share

37:15

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37:17

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Inside with Dr. Becky is produced

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37:55

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37:57

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Good Inside team. And

38:09

one last thing before I let you go. Let's

38:12

end by placing our hands on

38:14

our hearts and reminding

38:16

ourselves, even as

38:19

I struggle and even as

38:21

I have a hard time on the

38:23

outside, I remain good

38:26

inside.