0:00

The brain will rewire itself on consistency, even

0:02

just five minutes a day, because you're just

0:04

repeating. And through repetition, that's how the brain

0:07

creates and strengthens these synapses. So you have

0:09

to make sure that you're doing it on

0:11

a regular basis. And what that means is

0:13

that eventually, motivation will wear off and you're

0:15

going to have to rely on that consistency

0:18

as well. So I always suggest people to

0:20

kind of hone in on that motivation time

0:22

when you've got it, really go for it

0:24

if you can, and set up a practice

0:27

where you're doing it on a regular basis,

0:29

because that is what's going to help create

0:31

those pathways. Anything that requires you to put

0:33

in work and effort will raise your dopamine

0:35

levels, but then sustain them over time. So

0:40

have you ever wished that you could just hit

0:43

the reset button in your life? What

0:45

if I told you that you

0:47

had the ability to rewire your

0:49

brain and fundamentally change your thoughts,

0:51

your behaviors, your habits, and ultimately

0:53

your entire existence? My

0:56

guest today is Nicole Vignola,

0:58

a neuroscientist and organizational consultant

1:00

who has made it her mission to

1:02

make neuroscience tangible for everybody. In

1:04

her groundbreaking book, Rewire, Break the

1:07

Cycle, Alter Your Thoughts, and Create

1:09

Lasting Change, Nicole provides

1:11

a really revolutionary approach to harnessing

1:13

the power of neuroplasticity, the

1:16

brain's ability to reorganize itself and

1:18

create new neural pathways. And

1:20

drawing on her expertise in neuroscience

1:22

and organizational psych, Nicole offers practical

1:24

tools and science-backed methods to help

1:27

you improve your mental health, optimize

1:30

reflexes, and reach peak mental

1:32

performance. With the BS in

1:34

neuroscience for the University of Bristol and

1:36

the MSC in organizational psychology from

1:38

the University of West England, she has

1:41

dedicated her career to empowering

1:43

individuals and organizations to unlock their

1:45

full potential. And in this conversation,

1:47

we really dive into the fascinating

1:49

world of neuroplasticity, what that actually

1:51

is and isn't. Can we

1:54

explore how you can break free from

1:56

limiting beliefs from negative thought patterns and

1:59

self-sabotaging behaviors? that have been

2:01

holding so many of us back. So

2:03

get ready to embark on a transformative

2:05

journey where you'll really learn to rewire

2:07

your brain and create lasting change, paving

2:09

a way for a life of

2:12

greater fulfillment, purpose, and possibility. So

2:14

excited to share this conversation with you. I'm

2:17

Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life

2:19

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greenlight.com/ACAST. That's greenlight.com/ACAST. Good

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bath towels, adopted

6:00

until then was sort of set in

6:02

stone. Thereabouts in the 90s, we figured

6:04

out that actually the brain is still

6:07

capable of change well into old age.

6:09

So the brain can reorganize itself, create

6:11

pathways, undo old ones, which means that

6:13

we can undo bad behaviors and habits

6:15

that we don't serve us. And we

6:18

can also carve out new pathways to

6:20

adopt habits and behaviors, maybe thought patterns

6:22

that we would like to. And the

6:24

brain does that by essentially creating new

6:26

synapses. So you have a neuron and

6:29

then on the sort of neuron,

6:31

the synapses, which are connections, and

6:33

the more one connection communicates with another

6:35

part of the brain, the stronger that

6:37

connection becomes. And if that connection doesn't

6:39

communicate, then it can weaken over time.

6:43

Is I mean, it strikes me that that there's

6:45

something really different about the brain and the other

6:47

vital organs in the body. And when you think

6:49

about the kidney or the lungs or the heart,

6:51

you don't think about an organ that has this

6:53

ability to constantly rewire itself, to

6:56

reorganize itself, to create new connections, and

6:58

then prune old ones. Is the brain

7:00

really the only primary organ in the

7:03

body that has the ability to do

7:05

this? Our peripheral nervous system

7:07

will be doing the same, which I guess is

7:09

still part of the nervous system, if you will.

7:11

So we have the central nervous system, which is

7:13

your brain and spine, and then peripheral nervous system,

7:16

which communicates nerve signals to the rest of the

7:18

body. And those can rewire as well. So what

7:21

that means is that you could have somatic connections

7:23

that are either strengthened or weakened. And what that

7:25

means is that something that may have caused you

7:27

stress in the past may be weakened over time

7:29

as well. And the way that you are triggered

7:31

by stress through the whole body could change as

7:34

well. So yeah, as far as I know, I

7:36

think it is the only organ that can change.

7:38

I mean, I know that the heart and the

7:40

liver and the kidneys do regenerate, but I don't

7:43

think they rewire and reconnect as far as I'm

7:45

aware anyway. I think when we

7:47

talk about the brain, most people think about that

7:49

organ that sits up in our head. But

7:51

I'm also hearing a lot of conversation over the

7:53

last decade or so about what

7:56

people often call the second brain or the

7:58

enteric brain, the sort of the... of

8:00

neurons that exist in our gut and

8:03

how the environment in the gut affects

8:05

that. What is the connection or

8:07

the feedback mechanism between that quote, second brain and

8:09

the brain that most of us think about when

8:11

we talk about the brain? As

8:13

far as that, it's still very understudied,

8:15

but it's a very exciting part of

8:18

neuroscience because yes, as you said, we've started

8:20

to realize that there's this whole enteric nervous

8:22

system within our gut and that the gut

8:24

microbiome has its own sort of mind

8:27

of its own in quote unquote, right?

8:29

Which is actually aiding the body and

8:31

the brain in every function. We're seeing

8:33

functions of the gut microbiome dictating mental

8:36

wellbeing, the way that we

8:38

digest, of course, serotonin production. Now, serotonin

8:40

production in the gut does not correlate

8:43

to serotonin production in the brain. That's

8:45

a big misconception. But

8:47

what serotonin in the gut may or

8:49

may not do, we're not entirely sure yet,

8:52

is help communicate information from the body to

8:54

the brain. So healthy gut

8:56

brain connection can actually improve various functions

8:58

in the brain and body. Yeah,

9:00

I know that makes a lot of sense. I

9:03

think there's a lot of potential around neuroplasticity and we're gonna go

9:05

a lot deeper into that. But my sense

9:07

is there's also a lot of hype around

9:09

it also. So one of my

9:11

curiosities is, I hear the

9:13

phrase often, well, we've learned that

9:15

the brain is neuroplastic, meaning essentially you

9:17

can just completely rewire this thing. But

9:20

is that true or are there parts

9:22

of it that are more susceptible and

9:24

then not? Can we really make

9:28

wholesale change in the brain or is

9:30

it more selective? To some

9:32

degree, there are parts of the brain

9:34

that can't change things that are hardwired,

9:36

like vision, speech, you're never going to

9:38

lose your accent, for example, in your

9:40

native accent, but you can potentially learn

9:43

a new one. Now, the way that

9:45

plasticity works is through attention. So Dr.

9:47

Michael Mursenick was one of the lead

9:49

researchers in the area and back in

9:51

the 90s, he discovered

9:53

that there had to be attention, there

9:56

had to be norepinephrine and acetylcholine present in

9:58

the brain for plasticity to change. occur. What

10:00

they did is they did a tactile

10:02

discrimination activity where individuals were recording plasticity

10:04

in the brain whilst touching a barrel

10:06

that was turning. And when they asked

10:08

them to focus on something else, there

10:10

was no plasticity. And when they asked

10:12

them to focus on what the finger

10:15

was feeling, that's when they started to

10:17

see plasticity. So what they realized is

10:19

that we have to drive attention to

10:21

the things that we want to ingrain

10:23

as adults. When we're children,

10:25

we can absorb things through, you know,

10:27

not osmosis, but you know, through our

10:29

environment, through watching our parents, that's observational

10:31

knowledge. But as adults, we have to

10:34

physically tell the brain what is and

10:36

what isn't important. So the

10:38

more attention you put into something, the

10:40

bigger the spike in norepinephrine, the spike

10:44

in acetylcholine, and then you need

10:46

repetition. So to some degree, I

10:48

mean, you know, it's arguable you can't change your

10:50

entire brain because that would require a lot of

10:52

energy and a lot of effort to do so

10:54

and a lot of attention. And we have things

10:57

that we need to do on a daily basis

10:59

like, you know, get to work and

11:01

have these wonderful conversations. So you could acquire

11:03

potentially, you know, five skills a year, maybe

11:06

it's 10 skills a year, depending on how

11:08

much effort you put in and

11:10

then depending on how much consistency you put in as well.

11:12

CB I'm curious too, you

11:14

know, it sounds like when, and you write about this

11:16

in the book actually, like when you're really young, it

11:19

seems like your brain is just so

11:21

much more capable of taking

11:23

in so much more. And as you described,

11:26

it's almost like, you know, we've

11:28

got the width of the lens of attention is

11:30

just so much broader and allows so much more

11:32

rate and the brain integrates that. Whereas

11:34

you described as an adult, it seems like

11:37

it becomes a much more sort of like, I have to do

11:39

this. Like, do you have a sense for why

11:41

that shift happens over time? JG

11:44

I would imagine that it's because, you know,

11:46

as between the ages of zero and 25,

11:49

that's the most critical developmental stage where

11:52

you learn rules of how the world

11:54

works. In theory, by

11:56

25, you should kind of know how the

11:58

world works and perhaps. skill acquisition

12:00

would have been done within your primal years. Again,

12:02

I put that in quotes and quotes. I don't

12:05

want to think that over the age of 25,

12:07

you're doomed. But

12:09

it is an amazing thing to

12:12

learn that we can rewire our

12:14

brains up until old age as

12:16

well. So they actually, there's research

12:18

to show that we're using neuroplasticity

12:20

as a therapeutic intervention for dementia

12:22

patients to help them alleviate cognitive

12:24

decline, so improve their symptoms. They

12:27

may not ever be able to fully

12:30

recover, but maybe even stave off the

12:32

neurodegeneration. Now, just a side note, when

12:34

we have neurons and we have synapses,

12:37

we don't create new neurons in the

12:39

brain. When those die off, there's no

12:41

turning back, but we can create new

12:43

synapses. And that's the premise

12:45

of neuroplasticity in terms of therapeutic

12:47

interventions for dementia is that by

12:50

keeping these synapses alive and keeping

12:52

them regenerative, they can help stave

12:54

off further decline. So just

12:56

to make sure I understand, and for our

12:58

listeners, would a sort of

13:00

a simplification of that be like the neurons are

13:02

sort of the cells of the brain? Yes. And

13:05

the synapses are these little things that connect those

13:07

cells to each other so that effectively, if a

13:09

cell is gone, it's gone in your brain. We

13:11

don't have the ability to generate that. But

13:14

whatever is left can rewire in

13:16

different ways to maybe replace or

13:18

change functions so that we can

13:20

still preserve a lot. Yes.

13:23

And you can create multiple synapses as

13:25

well. So you can increase the abundance

13:27

of the synapses too. So it's actually

13:29

synaptogenesis, scientifically correct, not

13:31

neuroplasticity would be the correct

13:34

term, synaptic plasticity. It's

13:36

just more of a mouthful for people to understand. Yeah.

13:39

I'm wondering as you're describing that, you know,

13:41

whether there's, and I have no idea if

13:43

you know this or not, whether there's research

13:45

going on these days to try and to

13:47

ask the question, is

13:49

there some modality, some new idea

13:51

or mechanism that would actually be

13:54

able to generate new neurons

13:56

themselves? There is a lot of research,

13:58

there's speculation that we can. can regenerate in

14:00

two areas of the brain. One is the

14:02

hippocampus, which has been proven in rats, but

14:05

not in humans. And the other area I

14:07

believe off the top of my head is

14:09

the ventral tigmental area, but I could be

14:11

wrong. It's a slip of

14:13

mine. But those two areas, there's

14:15

speculation that we could, and if we

14:17

can, at the moment, it's a very

14:19

minor. Does it mean that

14:21

we could induce neuroplasticity in other ways? Like,

14:23

you know, we have stem cell regeneration. Maybe

14:26

I'm not sure yet, but it's exciting. It

14:29

makes me curious about, I remember years ago

14:31

reading some research about, and you write about

14:33

this to a certain extent also, the impact

14:35

of exercise on your brain and

14:38

how, you know, through scans measuring sort

14:40

of before and after over a window

14:42

of time, it seemed like

14:44

certain areas in the brain actually grew in

14:46

size, gray matter in the brain. Actually, there

14:48

was a higher volume of that

14:50

matter. But I guess then what you're describing is

14:53

you're not necessarily growing new brain cells, but

14:55

maybe that increase in matter is

14:57

coming from, is that then

14:59

just laying down a ton of new synaptic

15:02

connections? Yes, exactly. And it's condensing them,

15:04

if you will. So the surface area

15:06

is becoming more voluminous,

15:09

like dense. Yeah, that

15:11

makes sense. So you mentioned

15:13

by about 25 or so, we tend to have our model

15:15

of the world. Like we kind of like, well, we think

15:17

we know the rules of the game. Then we

15:20

realize we know nothing and then

15:22

everything changes eventually. And

15:24

it ties into this word you

15:26

described to a certain extent, which is heuristics. Yes.

15:29

You know, these sort of mental shortcuts. Take

15:32

me a little bit deeper into what these

15:34

are and why these help us function. The

15:37

heuristics are mental shortcuts. So it's how

15:39

your brain arrives to a conclusions or

15:41

decisions in the brain without having to

15:43

think about it. So if you don't

15:45

think about how you walk into the

15:47

door and turn on the light or

15:49

open the door or make your coffee,

15:51

you just do it automatically because the

15:53

brain is trying to save energy for

15:55

more cognitively demanding tasks. If you had

15:57

to spend your time thinking about all

15:59

these things. it would take too much energy

16:01

and then you'd probably be depleted before lunchtime.

16:04

So the brain acquires a set of sort

16:06

of rules and heuristics as to how the

16:08

world works and how you operate based on

16:11

what's been ingrained, based on what's been repeated

16:13

and based on your environment as well. So

16:16

those heuristics could be good for most

16:18

people. For some people, it means that

16:21

they adopt behaviors that don't serve them

16:23

based on what they learned as a

16:25

child. So a

16:27

classic example is when individuals come

16:29

from maybe an

16:31

emotionally abusive household and then they carry

16:34

that pattern into their life, even though

16:36

they know that it's morally incorrect on

16:38

a conscious level. But the subconscious brain,

16:40

which governs the majority of our operations,

16:42

about 90% to 95%

16:44

of our processes are thought to be

16:47

subconscious. So what happens is

16:49

that they carry those same patterns, even though consciously,

16:51

5% to 10% of

16:53

their brain, they know that it's wrong,

16:56

but the patterns are still ingrained because

16:58

neurobiology doesn't really have morals. It doesn't

17:00

understand the difference between right and wrong. It just knows

17:02

what's been repeated. And if this is

17:04

the sequence of neurons that fire in

17:06

sequence to get you to a particular action

17:08

and that's what's always been repeated, that is

17:11

what the brain is going to know best. Yeah.

17:13

And the way you're describing it, I think a

17:15

lot of people would probably recognize

17:17

some of those things in themselves looking back

17:19

or maybe examining the present, but they might

17:22

think, well, okay, so this is a pattern

17:24

I have and it's a quote, behavioral thing.

17:27

But what you're describing is not just a

17:29

behavioral thing. This is a physiological thing as

17:31

well. Yes, exactly. And

17:33

it's one of the reasons why I use

17:35

the hardware analogy in the book because the

17:37

hardware is your brain, the software is

17:40

your mental health and your patterns and

17:42

habits and behaviors, but essentially you need

17:44

the hardware to be in good working

17:46

order for the software to upgrade. And

17:49

yes, it is all down to physiology

17:51

and it's all energy as well. So

17:53

every single piece of communication

17:55

is neurotransmitter release, which requires energy

17:57

to be released. So. if

20:00

you don't have the capability to really fix the

20:02

external circumstance quite yet. Is that right? Yes.

20:04

Yes, I would completely agree with that. And

20:07

I think it gives people the understanding

20:09

that they can change the trajectory of

20:11

whatever was programmed for them. Because if

20:13

you think about it, our programming is

20:15

down to our environment, socioeconomic

20:18

circumstances, religion,

20:21

and for most of the path, we should

20:23

keep on, you should hold on to those

20:25

things. But for some people, their programming wasn't

20:27

modeled very well. But then it

20:29

sort of sent them on a trajectory

20:32

of their life, which always blows my

20:34

mind when I think about that. We're

20:36

programming children, we're programming people, and

20:38

then sending them off into the world. But it's nice to

20:40

know that we can take back control of that if we

20:43

wish to. Yeah. Is

20:45

there a genetic component here that,

20:48

to a certain extent, both determines

20:51

what the opening wiring of the brain is,

20:53

and then also, how

20:55

neuroplastic any given individual's brain is

20:58

or isn't? Yes. And

21:00

that would come down to the BDNF gene.

21:02

So how much BDNF can you produce? We're

21:05

all capable of, some may

21:07

be genetically more predisposed to

21:09

having more or less. There's

21:12

so many other genetic factors at play. Anecdotally,

21:14

for example, I can tell you I

21:17

have a ComT mutation, which basically means

21:19

that ComT is an enzyme that breaks

21:21

out dopamine. And I have a, not

21:24

an abundance, what's the opposite of abundance, a

21:26

deficit in these enzymes, which means that

21:28

my brain doesn't break down dopamine as quickly as

21:31

it should. So I'm very dopaminergic,

21:33

I'm very high functioning, I can get 70

21:35

things done at once. And

21:37

that's really interesting because I don't have struggles

21:39

with motivation, but it's because of this mutation

21:41

in my genes. Oh, that's wild. Yeah,

21:43

it's interesting. So basically, the enzyme doesn't

21:46

break it down as quickly or as

21:48

much as others, so that you effectively

21:50

have more of a residual or reservoir

21:52

of dopamine that just stays in your

21:54

brain longer. And it gives you these almost

21:56

kind of like superpowers to a certain extent. Yeah, exactly.

21:59

That's fascinating. but

24:00

then it won't drop as quickly. The problem

24:02

with social media is that it's very quick, so it

24:04

can raise it open very high, but there was no

24:06

effort involved, so then it drops down really quickly, and

24:08

then you need more to feel good. So then you

24:10

go on it again and again and again, sort

24:13

of doing this to just stay above

24:15

threshold and feel normal. And

24:18

things like exercise, cold water exposure, sauna,

24:20

breath work, any, you know, working on

24:23

your goals, anything that requires you to

24:25

put in work and effort, choosing to

24:27

cook versus ordering food, or raise your

24:30

dopamine levels, but then sustain them over

24:32

time. So if you're somebody that maybe

24:34

struggles with motivation, the catch-22 is that

24:36

it's going to feel better to want to

24:38

grab your phone, and I can appreciate that,

24:40

but maybe adopting practices that are more sustainable

24:42

for the way that you operate. Yeah,

24:45

I mean, that's fascinating. You

24:47

also mentioned this other chemical, BDNF,

24:50

brain-derived neurotropic factor, which I've heard

24:52

described as sort of miracle growth

24:54

for the brain. Describe

24:56

a little bit more what this is and how it works

24:58

and why it matters for us. Yeah, so BDNF

25:00

is a molecule that is released, well,

25:02

it's a protein actually, that is released

25:04

when we are children. So when we're

25:07

learning, it's released throughout life. We can

25:09

sort of bump it, if you will,

25:11

through learning and through exercise. Now,

25:13

the interesting thing is that when we relax

25:16

and contract our muscles under tension,

25:18

we release muscle-based proteins called

25:20

myokines. And these myokines

25:22

then cross it through the blood-brain barrier

25:24

into the brain and have positive effects

25:26

on the brain. There's a wide variety

25:29

of myokines, but BDNF is one of

25:31

these. And it actually induces neuroplasticity. It

25:33

can help increase it and amplify it,

25:36

which is incredible. They've done research where

25:38

they looked at the post-mortem brains

25:40

of older individuals. And

25:43

so they looked at them under a microscope. And

25:46

basically the individuals that were

25:48

active throughout later in life, they

25:50

had more presynaptic BDNF in

25:52

the synapses versus the individuals

25:54

that didn't, which then they

25:57

correlated to higher synaptic integrity,

25:59

more cognitive. and integrity as well. Yeah,

26:01

and I love that as you described. You know,

26:03

we actually, it's not the type of thing where

26:05

it just goes away over time as you age.

26:07

There are things that you can do like through

26:10

movement, through learning, that will bring

26:12

more of this back into you and it

26:14

creates almost like this benevolent

26:16

cycle between all

26:18

of it. And we'll be right

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34:00

a snowball effect of positivity. It's

34:02

like a positive loop, if you will.

34:05

So many people like to hold on to

34:08

the negative. When you explain about this negativity

34:10

bias and you start to reframe

34:12

things, so as an example, I'll work

34:14

with a client and I'll say, what

34:16

are the small wins and the big wins of

34:18

your week? And they'll start the call by saying,

34:20

ah, well, not much. And as

34:22

we're chatting, I'll go, that's a win. And

34:24

they go, oh, yeah. And then by the

34:26

end of it, they realize it actually had

34:28

a fantastic week. They were just focusing on

34:31

the negatives. And you know, Jonathan,

34:33

if I said to you now, how many blue

34:35

things are in your environment right now? If

34:37

you had to count them. And then I said, okay, well,

34:39

how many red things were there? You're going to say, well,

34:42

I don't know. I was looking for the blue things, not

34:44

the red things. And that's how it

34:46

works with negative bias is if you say to

34:48

yourself, I'm having a bad day, you're going to

34:50

overlook all the wonderful parts of your day and

34:52

just focus on what's negative. And that

34:54

goes back to what you were talking about earlier in the conversation,

34:56

which is everything really comes down

34:58

to attention. At the end of the day, when we're

35:00

talking about the brain and then you fold in

35:02

a particular activating system. And it's like what

35:05

we tell ourselves to be attentive to, we

35:07

become attentive to. And then we stop seeing

35:09

all the other things. That's what

35:11

we're talking about here, right? Yes, exactly. Exactly.

35:13

That. It's so interesting because it

35:15

gives science to sort of like some of

35:17

the pop psychology claims or spiritual claims that

35:20

you've heard over time. It's like, no, actually,

35:22

this is important. This matters because it really

35:24

changes the way that your brain functions. And

35:26

then it changes the way that you feel

35:29

in life. Yes. You also in that sort

35:31

of phase, you introduced

35:33

this term I never heard before, creeping

35:35

normality. So take me into this. This

35:38

is fascinating. Yeah. I was trying to

35:40

explain it to my sister and then this morning I

35:42

had the perfect example for it and the notes slip

35:44

on mine. I should have written it down. I was

35:46

actually meditating and I thought I'll come back to that

35:48

later and I lost it. But creeping

35:51

normality is the notion that over time

35:53

we shift our perception of what is

35:55

normal to suit our needs.

35:58

So mainly our safety mouth.

40:01

Yeah, I'll do it with you. So double inhale through

40:03

the nose if you can. Yeah, you

40:11

feel quite chilled. Yeah,

40:13

I mean, it's amazing how quickly you

40:15

feel this sort of subtle state change.

40:17

And what's great about the physiological size is you can

40:19

do it anywhere. You can do it

40:21

in the office. You can do it just

40:23

before a meeting. You can do it just

40:25

before public speaking. I remember once that this

40:28

big talk for athletes and I was very

40:30

nervous. And I remember sort of standing behind

40:32

the stage doing the physiological side, which completely

40:34

helps you come back into a parasympathetic

40:37

state. And the reason it

40:39

does that is because we have a

40:41

mechanism in the back of our brains

40:43

that allows us to regulate our breathing

40:45

rate. And normally,

40:48

if you ever had that feeling when you're stressed and you

40:50

have sort of huffing and puffing, and

40:52

someone points it out to you, and we've

40:54

associated that with something negative, but actually, sighing

40:56

is a really positive thing. Your

40:58

brain has a mechanism that regulates

41:00

your breathing rate, your breathing response. And

41:03

you know, when you're stressed, you walk around the house

41:05

sort of huffing and puffing. That's a

41:07

good thing. That's your brain trying to regulate

41:10

your stress response and bring you back down

41:12

into a parasympathetic state. And the sign is

41:14

dumping of carbon dioxide. And

41:16

we've actually attributed up with being a negative thing,

41:19

but it's actually a positive thing, which is quite

41:21

interesting that we've done that as a society, because

41:24

I can definitely recall times where people have been

41:26

annoyed with me for sighing until I've explained to

41:28

them why I do it. And then they go, oh, that makes

41:30

so much sense. But the physiological

41:32

sigh is basically you fast tracking

41:34

that breathing mechanism. So you're consciously

41:36

activating it instead of letting your

41:38

body do it subconsciously, which is

41:40

something that you would have done

41:43

normally, subconsciously without you realizing. So

41:45

you're basically bringing in oxygen,

41:47

popping open the alveoli, which are

41:49

the oxygen sacs in your lungs,

41:51

and then dumping carbon dioxide. It's

41:54

the quickest way to bring your central nervous system

41:56

back down into a parasympathetic state. Yeah, I

41:59

love that. I'm a long-term practitioner

42:01

and believer in breath work and breath

42:03

practices because I mean, I'm

42:05

meditating for a dozen years now. I do

42:07

all sorts of other things, but breathing is

42:10

the single quickest and most reliable thing to

42:12

change my state that I've ever experienced. You

42:14

know, like my meditation practice, it takes months

42:16

or years to really start to feel like

42:18

some sort of, you know, sustained effect. But

42:20

breathing literally within seconds, you

42:22

can feel so different. And

42:24

when you learn different types of breathing, to literally

42:27

sort of dial in the state that you want to

42:29

be in, it can be so

42:31

powerful. And I love the way you describe

42:33

the relationship between breathing and actually your physiology

42:35

and your brain. One

42:37

of the things that was popped into my head as you

42:39

were sort of like describing these things too, you talked about

42:41

journaling, you talked about breathing. So I

42:43

do this exercise with two other friends. We've

42:45

been doing it literally for years, every Sunday

42:47

morning, there's a form that goes out to

42:49

all the three of us. And

42:51

it's basically like what went well last week, you know,

42:54

what were your wins? What's on

42:56

top for the week to come? What

42:58

big things do you need to get accomplished? What

43:00

else is important in your life? And then just like

43:02

what else do you need us to know? And

43:05

it's interesting because that first question, you

43:07

know, like what went well last week, basically, what were

43:09

your wins from last week? Oftentimes,

43:12

like you were describing, I'll think about the last week,

43:14

I'm like, oh man, I got nothing done. This was

43:16

a total wash of a week. It was like, I'm

43:18

so behind, you know. And then I

43:20

started writing out all the different things. And I'm like,

43:22

wait a minute. I mean,

43:24

it wasn't necessarily what I wanted to get done or what,

43:26

but there was a lot that happened, a lot of good

43:28

and a lot of movement. And as you

43:31

described, like we have this bias away from

43:33

actually owning that, you know, we're

43:35

so focused on the negative on what we didn't

43:37

do on the things that are harmful that it

43:40

seems like our brain just doesn't really give

43:43

attention or acknowledge all the good stuff at

43:45

the same time. It's like we

43:47

need these proactive mechanisms to keep reminding us,

43:49

no, this too. Yes, yes. And

43:52

the thing is, the more you practice

43:54

that, you know, you've already said that

43:56

you meditate and you breath work, you

43:58

will rewire brain to then ultimately. automatically

44:00

be able to bounce back from that negative quite

44:02

quickly, which I imagine you're able to do. I'm

44:04

able to regulate quite quickly as well. My partner

44:07

and I have a great relationship. I mean, we

44:09

had a total bicker in the car the other

44:11

day in front of our friend, which was completely

44:13

unusual for us. I got really irritable. And

44:16

just as we normally do, within five minutes, we

44:18

both looked at each other and just giggled. That was

44:20

silly. Because we're quite

44:22

good at just letting it go. And that's

44:24

the malleability of being able to rewire your

44:26

central nervous system as well, is being able

44:28

to shift from one state to another

44:30

effectively, and essentially not lingering in either

44:33

for too long, or if you want

44:35

to, yes, of course, but being able

44:37

to shift states effectively. Yeah,

44:39

no, so great. And

44:42

we'll be right back after a word from our

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your podcasts. Speaking

46:54

of shifting states, phase two of your,

46:56

the sort of three phase approach of

46:58

neuroplasticity is about shifting your narrative. So

47:00

it's not just the state, it's about changing

47:03

the story that we're telling. And it's based on this

47:05

notion that we all show up

47:07

to any given experience with a certain amount

47:09

of subconscious programming. We've been talking

47:11

a little bit about how we become, we

47:13

make that subconscious conscious, but

47:15

then there's this idea of like, once

47:18

we understand the experience and the story we've

47:20

been telling about it, how do we then

47:22

tell a different story about it that is

47:24

more constructive for us? Well,

47:27

in Rewire, there's the seven step process in the shift

47:29

your narrative. So, phase one is laying

47:31

down that groundwork. It's probably a bit heavier.

47:34

And in phase two, it starts to

47:36

shift into this narrative. And there's seven

47:38

steps. One of them is, leave your

47:40

phone alone. So there's so much

47:43

subconscious programming coming from the media

47:45

that we consume and the people

47:47

we interact with. And there's a

47:49

saying, the five people you spend your

47:51

time with are the ones you're gonna become. I don't

47:53

know if that's entirely true, but I think there's an

47:55

element of truth in there because if

47:58

you're surrounded by negative people, you're probably. adopt

48:00

those patterns of thinking and behavior. If

48:02

you're surrounded by inspiring people, you're going

48:04

to want to be inspired and inspire

48:06

other people. So we need to

48:08

be careful of what we're

48:10

allowing into our lives subconsciously and consciously

48:12

as well, because it can really impact

48:14

us. So if you're following accounts that

48:17

perhaps don't make you feel good, they're

48:19

going to trigger certain aspects of you

48:21

and highlight them on a more regular

48:23

basis. Step number

48:25

one is trying to diminish

48:28

phone use because there's so

48:30

much of our cognitive processing that

48:33

goes towards energy usage

48:35

for phone use, but then

48:37

you don't have enough energy left for yourself. So

48:39

things like meditation are fantastic because they

48:42

help you go inwards. If

48:44

we're constantly living outwards thinking, what's next? Let

48:46

me consume more content. Let me think about

48:48

the next thing. I need to send this

48:50

email. I need to do this. We

48:53

don't have time to really think about our

48:55

thoughts, internalize them, process them. And what tends

48:57

to happen is people will do that at

48:59

night lying in bed and then they're tossing

49:01

and turning and they can't sleep because we

49:03

haven't activated the default mode network, which is

49:05

responsible for internal mind wandering, which is a

49:08

part of your brain that you would access

49:10

when you're meditating. We have things

49:12

like visualization in the book as well. I don't

49:14

know why I'm saying we, it's me. I wrote

49:16

the book. You're a

49:18

co-author now. The royal we. The royal

49:20

we. The visualization is an extremely powerful

49:23

tool and helping us create a

49:25

blueprint to where we want our new

49:27

wiring to go. Because

49:29

if we haven't experienced something and perhaps we're

49:31

afraid of it, it's going to be

49:34

hard for us to really go down that route because

49:36

the brain wants to keep us safe. I'm

49:38

somebody that is more prone to

49:41

challenges and putting myself out there,

49:43

but there are many people who prefer to stay safe.

49:46

And visualization can help you create

49:48

that blueprint because we know that through thought

49:50

alone, we can start to create new synapses.

49:52

So we can start to imagine what it

49:54

would be like for us to be wherever

49:57

we want to be with this new narrative,

49:59

with these new new habits with these

50:01

new behaviors. And then it helps lay

50:03

down the pathway so that when you

50:05

then put it into action, it's already

50:07

there. You can slowly, slowly through

50:09

repetition, rewire and re-carve a new

50:11

path for yourself. Yeah, so

50:13

it's part of the idea behind visualization

50:16

then that the act of

50:19

literally visualizing the way you wanna be or the

50:21

thing you wanna do or what you wanna accomplish,

50:23

that triggers the brain in a

50:26

similar enough way to doing the

50:28

actual thing that it starts the

50:30

process of connecting these

50:32

synapses, connecting these neurons in a

50:34

way that would then make the

50:36

actual doing of the thing more easier and

50:38

more likely to unfold. Exactly,

50:40

and we've seen that through athletic

50:43

performance. So the cerebellum can actually

50:45

become strengthened through motor control by

50:47

visualizing the movement. So individuals that

50:50

then mentally rehearse and

50:52

mentally practice the movement are actually better.

50:54

I think they use golfers in the

50:56

paper that I explained. They

50:58

choose a better swing. I

51:00

don't know why I don't play golf, but they're

51:03

better at playing golf after they've

51:05

visualized the mental imagery in their

51:07

heads first. Yeah, I love that. I

51:09

remember reading a paper, this was a number of years

51:11

back now, that blew me away where

51:13

they took untrained individuals and they

51:15

split half of them into a group that worked

51:18

out, did it like a workout program, I think

51:20

it was three times a week. The

51:22

other ones, they had visualized doing that

51:24

same workout program. The people who actually

51:26

did the exercise, they documented gains in

51:28

strength and muscle size and things like

51:31

that. The people who

51:33

simply visualized doing that exact same

51:35

program had pretty significant

51:37

increases in muscle strength and even

51:39

muscle size. And it

51:42

is amazing how much the visualization can truly

51:44

affect your physiology. It's kind of like, on

51:47

the one hand, you think how is that possible,

51:49

but it is. Yeah, no, I

51:51

believe that. And I think I remember that

51:53

paper, I haven't read it recently, but I

51:55

do remember reading it at the time, which

51:58

is kind of what I remember sending. me

52:00

on a trajectory into this visualization practice

52:03

because it's yeah, completely blew

52:05

my mind as well. It's wild. Yeah.

52:07

One of the other things you talk about

52:09

under this sort of like the second phase

52:11

is the notion of the role of repetition.

52:13

Like rather than just thinking this or doing

52:15

this thing once, what happens in the brain

52:17

when we actually turn this into a practice?

52:20

Yes. The brain prefers it

52:23

will rewire itself on consistency. So

52:25

a lot of the times people will think, oh, well,

52:27

five minutes isn't enough. I'm learning to

52:29

play the guitar at the moment. Actually, I started last

52:31

October and it's even just

52:34

five minutes a day because you're just

52:36

repeating and through repetition, that's how the

52:38

brain creates and strengthens these synapses. So

52:40

you have to make sure that you're

52:42

doing it on a regular basis. And

52:45

what that means is that eventually motivation will wear

52:47

off and you're going to have to rely on

52:50

that consistency as well. So

52:52

I always suggest people to kind of hone

52:54

in on that motivation time when you've got

52:56

it, really go for it if

52:58

you can and set up a practice where you're

53:00

doing it on a regular basis because that

53:02

is what's going to help create those pathways. Yeah.

53:06

What's your take then on, so as I described,

53:08

been meditating for a long time and I've

53:10

had conversations with many, many, many people over the

53:12

years who basically, no, no, no, I'm not a

53:14

meditator. I quote, can't do that. I'm

53:17

like, I get it. I didn't come to it because

53:19

I wanted to. I came to it because there was

53:21

stuff going on and it was sort of last ditch

53:23

effort to really help me through something. And then it

53:26

just became a thing that I'd never stopped doing.

53:28

So if we take

53:30

meditation as an example, right? And people

53:32

are like, I can't sit for 20 minutes or 30 minutes

53:34

a day. Like it would just never work for me. It

53:36

sounds like part of what you're describing here is saying, well,

53:38

first just focus on developing like

53:40

the container for the behavior. So

53:43

like focus, sit for a

53:45

minute a day and because

53:47

you're like, and, but do that every

53:49

day for 30 days or 60 days

53:51

and 90 days because you're wiring your brain

53:53

to actually have the capability of doing

53:55

that. Is that right? Yes. And

53:57

also, you know, how do you know you can't do it

53:59

if you have. haven't really tried. The first time is always

54:02

going to be rubbish. It's the same as picking up a

54:04

guitar. If you don't know how to meditate, you don't know

54:06

how to play a guitar. It's not going to sound nice.

54:08

It's not going to feel nice, but over time, that's how

54:10

you get through it. That's how you get better at it.

54:13

And I love speaking to people that meditate

54:15

on a regular basis because you really understand

54:17

what it's like to feel the way that

54:19

you do when you meditate regularly. It's

54:22

something that's right there. You can access

54:24

without anything else. And that's

54:27

what I love about meditation, breath work, all

54:29

these practices that everything you need is

54:31

already within you. You just need

54:34

to cultivate this part of you

54:36

that is able to feel

54:38

the way that it can feel the best. Yeah.

54:41

I think that kind of brings us to a

54:43

certain extent to phase three also, which is like

54:46

practices, things that we can do to really boost

54:48

the positives. So now we've talked about addressing the

54:50

negative. We talked about changing the narrative that we're

54:52

doing and thinking about visualization and shifting attention. The

54:54

third element is really how do we then go

54:57

about boosting the positive? And there are different

54:59

practices that really affect our brain

55:01

and help in the rewiring process.

55:04

And because we're talking about meditation, I'm curious

55:06

what really is happening inside the brain because

55:08

I've noticed that over time,

55:11

I've become just a lot less

55:13

reactive as a person. I'll be

55:15

in a conversation which in

55:18

a prior version would have been

55:20

heated and would have been adversarial and I

55:22

would have immediately reacted in a very particular

55:24

way. And I'll be in

55:26

a conversation that has that same potential now.

55:29

But I noticed myself almost

55:31

literally zooming out and looking

55:33

down into the conversation and

55:35

asking what's really happening here?

55:37

And what would be the

55:40

healthy, constructive response here rather

55:42

than just reacting? So what's actually

55:44

happening in my brain that creates

55:46

that shift? without

56:00

automatically reacting. Because reacting

56:03

is a very quick process that's been

56:05

deeply ingrained in patterns of

56:07

behaviors that you've acquired. And

56:09

the more you do it, the easier it

56:11

gets at being reactive. But meditation

56:13

can help to slow down. It can

56:15

help you kind of see those pauses

56:17

and then make that space bigger within

56:20

your mind, if that makes any sense.

56:22

But what is actually happening on a

56:25

neuroscientific level is we have this default

56:27

mode network, which I explained to you

56:29

is your mind-wandering internal thought. Now,

56:31

the default mode network is a place

56:34

of mind-wandering creativity, but it's

56:36

also a place of rumination, depending on

56:38

the connectivity that it has with other

56:40

brain areas. Now, through

56:42

meditation, we've seen that the

56:44

amygdala shrinks in size. The

56:46

amygdala is your fear processing center

56:48

that is responsible for detecting fear

56:50

in the environment. So if

56:53

it's hyperactive, it will start to

56:55

attach importance to fear or importance

56:57

to threat more easily when it

57:00

shouldn't. So your amygdala may

57:02

have shrunk, and that means

57:04

that threatening things from

57:06

the environment are not being triggered in your brain as

57:09

easily. And that could be one part of it. The

57:12

other part is that the default mode network

57:14

can be upregulated, as I said, to either

57:16

be more creative or to be more ruminative.

57:18

But what meditation does is it helps you

57:20

kind of... The way that I explain it

57:23

is if the default mode network is like a garden

57:26

and you've allowed the weeds to grow

57:28

and you've allowed it to overgrow and

57:30

you're not tender to it because you're

57:32

constantly living outward, you're constantly busy with

57:34

something else all the time, you're not

57:36

paying attention to your thoughts, these

57:38

weeds can overgrow. But through meditation,

57:40

the way that I explain it anyway, is

57:42

that you're pulling out the weeds, you're

57:45

cultivating the garden that you want, that

57:47

it's a wonderful place that allows you

57:49

to then operate with more harmonious. You

57:52

start responding with more positivity,

57:54

with more joy, with more empathy

57:57

and abundance when this default mode

57:59

network is... cultivated to be a

58:01

positive part of your brain. Now,

58:03

that makes so much sense to me. I love

58:05

understanding a little bit better what's actually happening inside

58:07

my head that leaves to these long-term changes in

58:10

the way that you show up in the world.

58:12

We talked a bit about exercise and neuroplasticity, but

58:15

one of the other things that you speak to

58:17

is the importance of sleep and neuroplasticity.

58:19

So take me into this a bit more. Yes.

58:23

So yeah, in phase three, I talk

58:25

about growth mindset, sleep, exercise, all these

58:27

valuable tools that help you maintain the

58:29

changes that you've just made, which is

58:31

arguably the most important part of rewiring

58:33

your narrative because we want to

58:35

do the work, but then we want to make sure that

58:37

we cultivate this life for ourselves and actually change it for

58:39

the good. So you don't have to read the book

58:42

again in 10 years time or

58:44

do. That is fundamentally

58:46

the biggest optimization tool. I mean, Matthew

58:49

Walker has quoted that in his book.

58:51

He says sleep is your number one

58:53

optimization tool. And it's

58:55

because sleep forms the basis of everything.

58:58

So from waste removal in the brain.

59:00

So throughout the day, we'll have toxic

59:02

buildup. We have tower buildup, which later

59:04

in life can lead to Alzheimer's disease.

59:07

When we sleep, predominantly in deep

59:09

sleep, what the brain does is

59:11

it releases something called the glymphatic

59:13

system, which essentially releases cerebral spinal

59:15

fluid into the brain to wash

59:17

away these toxins. It's kind of

59:19

like a washing machine service for

59:21

the brain. And it only does that

59:23

at night. The other thing

59:26

is that we release testosterone during

59:28

sleep, predominantly during sleep. So men

59:30

and women will release some throughout

59:32

the day, but the majority is

59:34

released during REM sleep. So

59:36

if individuals are sleeping six hours

59:38

versus eight, they're losing an

59:40

entire cycle of REM. And

59:42

that amounts to around 10% loss of

59:45

testosterone per day. To some

59:47

people, that might not sound like a lot, but as

59:49

you accumulate over time, you have one week of bad

59:51

sleep, you have two weeks of bad sleep, then next

59:53

thing you know, you've had a year of bad sleep. That

59:56

can all sort of amalgamate to the

59:58

bigger problems. The other thing is that

1:00:01

through sleep, we regulate genes, we

1:00:03

regulate our inflammation, we can alter

1:00:05

our genes if we don't sleep

1:00:08

enough as well. They did

1:00:10

a study where they put people on six hours

1:00:12

of sleep and in one week alone, they had

1:00:14

altered 711 of their genes, which is about 3%

1:00:19

of the genome. Half of those were

1:00:21

down-regulated in a way that was impacting their immune

1:00:24

and inflammation as well, so it

1:00:26

was increasing inflammation. And the other

1:00:28

half were increasing tumor processing. So

1:00:31

they were basically turning the key

1:00:34

for tumor processing. It doesn't necessarily mean that

1:00:36

they would develop something like cancer, but it's

1:00:38

starting to sort of open the doors for

1:00:40

that to happen if the body can't then

1:00:42

cope with the autophagy throughout the day. And

1:00:45

that was really wild because I appreciate

1:00:47

that a lot of people don't sleep, but if

1:00:49

you have the ability to control it and you

1:00:51

can, to some degree, try and

1:00:54

prioritize it, I would definitely encourage

1:00:56

everyone to do that. Yeah, and you use

1:00:58

the word autophagy also just for people listening

1:01:00

that from my understanding is effectively like programmed

1:01:02

cell death when a cell becomes senescent. And

1:01:05

then these other processes kind of help wash them out of

1:01:07

us. And we don't want to disrupt that

1:01:09

because we need that to be happening

1:01:11

all day to stay healthy. Exactly. One of the things

1:01:14

I can't remember whether you wrote about this or not,

1:01:16

but I've just known for me, it's been really powerful

1:01:18

and I feel like it's really effective. My brain and

1:01:20

my state of mind is exposure

1:01:23

to nature. Yes. I'm curious what your

1:01:25

take is on this. Yes. I believe I did

1:01:27

speak about it in the book. So when

1:01:29

we are in nature, we actually

1:01:32

can shrink our amygdala as well,

1:01:34

because there's something primal about being

1:01:36

in an environment that hasn't got

1:01:38

threatening stimuli. So in the

1:01:40

city, you would have to be

1:01:42

constantly detecting information from your environment

1:01:44

and your brain, whether consciously or

1:01:46

subconsciously, is determining whether it's threatening

1:01:48

or not. If you are

1:01:51

on the go and you're doing other things, your

1:01:53

brain is still bringing in that information and still

1:01:55

processing it on a subconscious level. And

1:01:57

that's still energy that's being used. So, So

1:02:00

there's still some level of amygdala

1:02:02

activation. And if the amygdala is

1:02:04

active, it means a bit. It's

1:02:06

strengthening in connectivity. And

1:02:08

when we spend time in nature, it actually can

1:02:10

help shrink the amygdala. The other thing

1:02:12

I spoke about in the book is walking, especially

1:02:15

in nature. And walking can

1:02:17

actually help deactivate the amygdala because when

1:02:19

your eyes are moving laterally, side to

1:02:21

side, you're not consciously doing this when

1:02:24

you're walking, but the image is moving

1:02:26

past your periphery is

1:02:28

called optokinetic nystagmus. And

1:02:31

it basically just means that your eyes are

1:02:33

still to some degree moving laterally, even if

1:02:35

it's very minor. And that competes

1:02:37

for resources with the amygdala. So it

1:02:39

actually switches the amygdala off, which is

1:02:41

really, really interesting. It's a type

1:02:43

of EMDR therapy whilst walking.

1:02:46

Yeah, I never really thought about it that way, but

1:02:48

it makes perfect sense. For those who

1:02:50

aren't familiar with EMDRs, it's processing

1:02:53

therapeutic modality, where you literally move

1:02:55

your eyes in specific ways in

1:02:57

response to different stimuli. And it can

1:02:59

be stunningly effective, especially in helping

1:03:01

people process trauma. Exactly. That's fascinating that

1:03:03

you can get almost like this similar

1:03:06

effect by walking through nature. And

1:03:08

in the paper in 2018, they did the study on rats. We

1:03:12

always knew that EMDR works. So

1:03:14

EMDR stands for emotional eye

1:03:16

movement, desensitization reprocessing. So you're

1:03:18

reprocessing the information without the

1:03:21

fear attached to it. But

1:03:23

in the paper, they basically figured out how

1:03:25

EMDR works. And in the discussion, they

1:03:28

actually say that. They say, I think we just accidentally

1:03:30

figured out how EMDR works because we always knew that

1:03:32

it works. We just didn't know the mechanisms as to

1:03:34

how it did. And that was the most fascinating part

1:03:36

of the paper when I read it. Yeah,

1:03:39

that's so interesting. Well, I

1:03:41

love the notion, I mean, you shared a whole

1:03:43

bunch of ideas and everyone should dive into the

1:03:45

book because there's a ton more detail, a ton

1:03:47

more like actual strategies and tools and processes to

1:03:49

help out. But just really understanding, even

1:03:51

on a macro level, that we

1:03:54

really can rewire so much of what we thought

1:03:56

was maybe just it is what it is, really

1:03:59

focusing on you. ditching the negative and then understanding

1:04:01

how to change the narrative and then like these

1:04:03

practices and different things that we can do to

1:04:06

then take the positive and reinforce them and

1:04:08

boost them and turn them into sustaining things.

1:04:11

It's just super powerful. Yeah. So

1:04:13

it feels like a good place for us to come full

1:04:15

circle in our conversation as well. So in

1:04:17

this container of good life project, if I offer

1:04:19

up the phrase to live a good life, what

1:04:21

comes up? Okay.

1:04:24

I think to live with self

1:04:27

alignment because I think

1:04:29

there's a lot of people that will speculate on and

1:04:31

there's a lot of research that will tell you what

1:04:33

is the key to longevity. But

1:04:35

my biggest question is, can you sit with

1:04:38

yourself alone in a room? And

1:04:40

you alluded to the fact that you can, because

1:04:42

you're an avid meditator and I love that because

1:04:44

I think that that's fundamentally what's going to drive

1:04:46

our wellbeing is are you

1:04:48

constantly fighting with yourself or not? Because

1:04:50

if you're not, you can go through

1:04:52

life much easier with things being thrown

1:04:54

your way, but knowing that you are standing

1:04:56

true in your own light, in your own

1:04:58

alignment, however, where you want to phrase it.

1:05:00

And I think that that for me is

1:05:03

the basis of living a good life. Thank

1:05:06

you. Thank you. Hey,

1:05:09

before you leave, if you love this episode, say

1:05:12

that you'll also love the conversation we had

1:05:14

with Light Walk-Ins about reclaiming a

1:05:16

freer story and making big changes in

1:05:18

life. You'll find a link to Light's

1:05:20

episode in the show notes. This episode

1:05:22

of Good Life Project was produced by

1:05:25

executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me,

1:05:27

Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez,

1:05:29

Christopher Carter, Crafted Our Theme Music,

1:05:31

and special thanks to Shelly Adell for

1:05:33

her research on this episode. And

1:05:35

of course, if you haven't already done

1:05:38

so, please go ahead and follow

1:05:40

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1:05:44

interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances

1:05:46

are you did since you're still listening

1:05:49

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favor, a seven second favor and share

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it maybe on social or by text

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or by email, even just with one

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person, just copy the one person. link

1:06:00

from the app you're using and tell

1:06:02

those you know, those you love, those

1:06:04

you want to help navigate this thing

1:06:06

called life a little better so we

1:06:09

can all do it better together with

1:06:11

more ease and more joy. Tell them

1:06:13

to listen, then even invite them to

1:06:15

talk about what you've both discovered because

1:06:17

when podcasts become conversations and conversations become

1:06:19

action, that's how we all come alive

1:06:21

together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields,

1:06:24

signing off for Good Life Project.