0:00

Friendship in adulthood is not like

0:02

friendship in childhood. You cannot rely

0:04

on the same set of assumptions.

0:06

Friendship in adulthood does not happen

0:09

organically. I'm going to repeat that.

0:11

It does not happen organically. You

0:13

have to try, right? And

0:15

I think people are so afraid of rejection. But

0:18

the reality is people are less likely to reject

0:20

you than you think. Like we have this whole

0:22

culture of lonely people looking for connection, you know?

0:24

And I think sometimes we assume everybody has their

0:26

friends when, you know, the data is telling us,

0:28

no, they do not. So

0:33

friendship, it is one of those things where

0:35

we all know deep down how important it

0:37

is. And there's even a ton of research

0:39

showing it's about the most important thing when

0:41

it comes to living a good life. And

0:43

yet once we're adults all too often, those

0:46

chosen family level friends, they tend to drift

0:48

away and we get so wrapped up in

0:50

life, we kind of forget or become nervous

0:52

about trying to make new like summer camp

0:54

level friends. So we pretend, oh,

0:56

it really just doesn't matter as much as

0:59

it does. Except it does. And

1:01

we end up swirling and loneliness and

1:03

disconnection and drift and longing for deeper

1:05

bonds. We crave spaces where we

1:08

can drop our armor and be seen and

1:10

known and supported. Well, if

1:13

you want to transform how you show up

1:15

for others and invite more reciprocity and care

1:17

and belonging and love into your life, this

1:20

is the conversation for you. My

1:23

extraordinary guests are three relationship

1:25

innovators offering vital new

1:27

perspectives on community and togetherness

1:29

and friendship. First writer and

1:31

activist Mia Birdsong, whose luminous

1:34

book, How We Show Up Reclaiming

1:36

Family, Friendship, and Community, inspires

1:38

us to question assumptions and

1:41

reimagine diverse, expansive relationships beyond

1:43

the isolated nuclear family model.

1:47

Next up, we've got psychologist

1:49

Dr. Marisa Franco, whose research

1:51

bat platonic, how the science of attachment

1:53

can help you make and keep friends,

1:56

shares these revelatory insights on moving

1:58

past barriers to further your life. forge

2:00

vulnerable, fulfilling adult friendships. And

2:02

finally, you'll hear from therapist

2:04

Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford, whose

2:07

empowering sisterhood heals, the transformative

2:09

power of friendship, just

2:12

beautifully illuminates the soul nourishing magic

2:14

that unfolds when circles of black

2:16

women gather to uplift each other,

2:18

and what we can all learn

2:20

from the notion of circles. Through

2:23

vivid stories, expansive wisdom, and practical

2:25

guidance, these three change makers

2:27

believe us feeling deeply hopeful about

2:29

the power of showing up with heart for ourselves

2:32

and others. So join us

2:34

for an uplifting exploration of

2:36

how to nurture bonds of platonic love that

2:38

help us thrive. So excited

2:40

to share this conversation with you. And

2:43

one last thing, before we dive into today's conversation,

2:45

I wanna share a fun new project that I

2:47

have created for you. It's a way to feel

2:49

more alive and less alone. So

2:51

after taking a years-long hiatus from public writing,

2:53

I'm back and with a new weekly newsletter

2:56

and community called Awake at the Wheel. So

2:58

every Sunday morning in your inbox, you'll get

3:01

a new story and insight written by me,

3:03

along with a journaling and conversation prompt designed

3:06

to help you feel more alive and

3:08

less alone. And hey, even if you're

3:10

not a journaler, it'll give you something to think about

3:12

so that you can step into your week in a

3:14

more intentional way. And just on a

3:16

personal level, I am just so excited to

3:19

get back to writing in a more personal,

3:21

vulnerable, long-form way. It would mean the world

3:23

to me if you would support this

3:25

new project. So go check out the

3:27

latest stories and insights and see what this week's

3:29

writing and conversation prompt is now. I think you'll

3:31

really like it. I'll see you over

3:34

at Awake at the Wheel. Just click the link

3:36

in the show notes now. I'm Jonathan

3:38

Fields and this is The Life

3:40

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Life Project is sponsored by the

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aha in your podcast app.

6:07

That's ADHD aha with aha

6:09

spelled A-H-A. It's an

6:11

aha moment you won't miss. Hey,

6:16

so our first guest is writer and

6:19

activist, Mia Birdsong. In her conversation with

6:21

me, Mia challenges us to move beyond

6:23

the idea that family has to mean

6:25

just the traditional family structure. And

6:28

she really illuminates how for most of human

6:30

history, we lived interdependently

6:32

in extended families and tribes.

6:35

I found her perspective on why the

6:37

modern nuclear family structure leaves so many

6:40

wanting, just really deeply thought provoking, and

6:42

also inspiring. Mia

6:45

provides this expansive re-imagining of

6:47

how we can build diverse

6:49

relationships and community in ways

6:51

that nurture all of our needs. Through

6:53

vivid stories and insights, she really reveals

6:56

practical ways that we can

6:58

show up for each other and foster true

7:00

intimacy, care, and belonging in our lives. I

7:03

came away inspired to be more intentional about

7:05

strengthening the connections that matter most. Her

7:08

message just resonated deeply and I know it will for

7:10

you too. Here's Mia. Human

7:12

beings, we

7:14

are wired for connection. We cannot

7:16

survive without each other. We are

7:18

deeply interdependent and we are meant

7:20

to be in community with each

7:23

other. Even the most

7:25

like hermetic person needs

7:27

other people for something. I

7:30

completely agree, this idea of new

7:32

community and also really re-imagining when

7:35

we talk about not just community, but

7:37

family. What do we mean

7:39

by that? What do we mean by friends? What do

7:41

we mean by family? What do we mean by extended

7:43

family? You

7:45

were saying, what are the models that we

7:47

can look to right now to learn from,

7:50

which I'd love to explore a little bit. This

7:52

has really been the focus of the last chunk

7:54

of years for you. I'm

7:57

curious also, because I think...

8:00

what really step one is, is this

8:03

question, you know, like reimagining, well, what is

8:05

it that actually makes for a good family

8:07

or a good community? You know, I

8:09

have, so I ask people this

8:11

all the time, I'm like, what makes what, like,

8:14

what makes a good family? The first thing everyone

8:16

says is love. And then they talk about, you

8:18

know, people who will be there for you. They talk

8:21

about people who care about you, people who will

8:23

support you. And like,

8:27

you know, if you're trying to do something new, like,

8:29

they'll support you in that. No one ever talks about

8:31

structure. No one ever is like, what

8:34

makes a good, like a really good family is

8:36

that you have a man and a woman who

8:38

are married, and they have biological children.

8:41

No one has ever said that to

8:43

me. I think all of us fundamentally

8:45

know that it is the function of

8:47

family that is important, not the structure.

8:49

And the fact is that the kind

8:51

of insular nuclear family is a very

8:54

recent invention. The

8:57

idea that two people will

9:01

provide like all of the things that

9:03

we need from human beings that we would get it from

9:05

like one other adult, and that

9:07

two people can raise children is

9:10

just like on its face absurd. Like that's never in

9:13

human history ever been the case. We've always had

9:15

extended families, we've always had chosen family, but I

9:17

always had family with people who are like in

9:20

our tribe who we weren't necessarily biologically related to.

9:22

We have always and when

9:24

I'm talking about like 1000s of years of

9:26

human history, we've always collectively raised children. So

9:30

the nuclear family really is

9:32

this like bizarre, unnatural

9:35

anomaly. And

9:37

it is not serving us. Because,

9:39

you know, unless you

9:43

are the very small percentage of people

9:45

who has one person

9:48

in your life who can be, you know,

9:51

the person who you are romantically and

9:53

sexually attracted to, and then

9:55

like actually have good sex with the

9:57

person who you can be roommates with.

10:00

and manage a household with

10:02

and co-mingle your finances and

10:05

travel with and be your best friend

10:07

and you're confident and then if you have

10:09

kids raise kids with like that is too

10:12

many roles for two

10:15

people to fill to both fill for each other.

10:18

So you know what

10:20

I see is that a lot of folks

10:22

who are trying to do that are

10:25

deeply unhappy because they're not actually getting

10:27

their needs met and they

10:29

don't recognize and this is particularly true

10:31

of straight men and they don't really

10:33

recognize that there are other ways for

10:35

them to get some of those needs

10:37

met you know like I'm a terrible

10:39

roommate like my you know my husband

10:41

and I have lived together for like

10:43

20 years but in some

10:45

other configuration of our marriage and

10:48

in a world where housing was not so

10:50

incredibly expensive like it might be better for

10:52

us to like you know live in a

10:54

duplex and I could make my

10:56

mess upstairs and he could keep his you know

10:58

part neat downstairs. So part of it

11:01

is about reimagining but part of it is also

11:03

recognizing that we actually used to do something else.

11:05

So I think of of it as both kind

11:07

of understanding and looking

11:09

to like our ancestral

11:11

history and seeing how you

11:13

know our people did things

11:16

before and then reimagining those structures

11:18

and ways of being in relationship

11:20

with each other for a modern

11:24

life right so for what actually fits our lives.

11:27

Yeah so it's more it's really more of a questioning

11:30

of why why we're doing it the way we're

11:32

doing it when we have so much history of

11:35

doing it differently and and very

11:38

arguably experiencing our

11:40

lives in so many different

11:42

ways and levels better. Yeah

11:45

I mean it's interesting because also there's there's

11:48

this expectation that's set I think now

11:51

that you know if you

11:53

shouldn't your quote should be able to

11:55

get everything you need from this nuclear

11:57

family and you don't you know

11:59

you you're feeling lonely, you're feeling stressed, you're

12:02

feeling overwhelmed, all the different things that

12:04

pretty much everyone tends to feel at

12:06

some part of their journey in this

12:08

sort of like small tight family. If

12:11

you don't feel those, then you judge yourself

12:13

a failure. Exactly. And then you layer on

12:15

top of that, this sense of shame, which

12:17

just makes things worse. And then

12:20

I think people end up being silent about it,

12:22

right? They don't talk about it. They don't

12:24

have the conversations they need to with their

12:26

partner about like what they can actually do

12:28

for each other. And nevermind like

12:30

if you don't have a partner, right? Then what

12:33

are you supposed to do? There are all of

12:35

these ways in which our culture, our

12:38

the design of like, you know, houses

12:40

and cars and certainly

12:42

all of the like benefits that exist in

12:45

our culture are really created for

12:47

and orient us toward the

12:50

insular nuclear family. And there are hell

12:52

of single people in America who

12:54

are having to just like navigate systems that weren't

12:56

made for us and who are having

12:58

to kind of exist in a

13:00

culture that says that they're a failure,

13:02

right? That says that there's something wrong with them. And

13:05

not only is it saying that, but lots

13:07

of folks also internalize that and assume that

13:09

there's something wrong with them or feel as

13:11

if their life is incomplete because they don't

13:13

have a partner or they, you know,

13:15

used to and now they don't. One

13:18

of the stories in my book that

13:20

I love is my

13:23

friend Deanna who does not have a

13:25

romantic sexual partner, but like her and

13:27

her friend Cynthia are each other's plus

13:29

one. They talk about retirement, they

13:31

text each other every day. They

13:34

have made this friendship

13:36

that they have fill the

13:38

role that many people look to a

13:41

romantic and sexual partner for. And they

13:43

both, you know, date people and have,

13:45

you know, have had other relationships, romantic

13:48

and sexual relationships, but this friendship

13:51

between them is primary. And

13:53

I just love the model of that. And

13:55

largely like so many of the stories that

13:57

I tell in the book and the book.

14:00

because, you know, mostly stories, it's mostly

14:02

the stories that I found

14:04

that helped me understand and answer

14:06

the questions that I had about

14:08

creating family and community. They're

14:11

just these models that they're not like blueprints for us,

14:13

right? They're not like, oh, like, this is what this

14:15

person did. I'm going to go and replicate it. But

14:18

it really is about having

14:21

enough examples that allow us

14:23

to expand our understanding of

14:25

what's possible. And then

14:27

we can kind of get into our own, you know,

14:29

personal inquiry about what is it that I

14:32

actually want in my life, right? One of

14:34

the things that I learned from a bunch of

14:36

the folks who I talked to about friendship was

14:39

about kind of like getting rid of

14:41

the very narrow confines of how we

14:43

think about what a friendship is and

14:45

what it's for. And

14:48

I think about the people who I consider

14:50

close friends and like be in conversation with

14:52

them about like, what is the culture of

14:54

our friendship? Like what are the expectations we

14:56

have of each other? What can we count

14:58

on each other for? What are

15:00

the boundaries that we have? And

15:02

that's expanded the relationships I have

15:05

with those people into places that

15:07

do not fit into, you know,

15:09

kind of the American box

15:12

of what we say a friend is.

15:14

And I love the depth of those relationships.

15:17

I love the kind of intimacy that

15:19

that's created between me and folks, both

15:21

because we're like, we're actually having conversations

15:23

about our relationship, but also because we

15:26

realize like, oh, here's a thing that

15:28

we want from this relationship that is

15:30

not that we wouldn't have discovered if

15:32

we hadn't had this conversation about like, how do

15:34

we be friends? How do we be friends? Yeah,

15:37

I mean, so you're really blurring the line, you

15:39

know, so instead of, you know, okay, so here's

15:41

the Boxer family, here's the Boxer friends, here's the

15:44

Boxer acquaintance says, it's just saying, okay, so let's

15:46

throw it up against the wall. And let's fundamentally

15:48

ask the question, what do

15:50

I want and need from the relationships in

15:52

my life? What am I open to giving?

15:54

And then how do I

15:56

just construct it in a way from

15:59

like the the universe of people who are

16:01

in my orbit, that feels good,

16:03

that gives me and that gives them what

16:05

they need and whether we call that family,

16:07

whether we call it friends, who really cares

16:09

at that point? But that requires,

16:11

I mean, it really requires, especially

16:14

in a world today where you've

16:16

got this, you've got real separations,

16:18

right? You've got a lot of people who

16:20

go the traditional family route because maybe they

16:22

feel it's right for them. And very often

16:25

part of that involves pulling away from all

16:27

of those people who not long

16:29

before really did serve a lot of those

16:31

roles. And now they

16:33

become more isolated. They start to expect they get

16:36

everything from the traditional family. And then the friends

16:38

that they're moving away from feel like, OK,

16:40

so now I'm no longer part of that family,

16:44

but I'm also no longer a part of

16:46

the bigger community of people who decided that this

16:48

is the model of what family looks

16:50

like for them anymore. And now

16:52

you feel like, and society, as you mentioned,

16:56

kind of labels them to a certain extent and says, well,

16:59

you're not doing it right because you're not there yet. And

17:01

it just creates more divides. So I mean, talk

17:04

about really needing to have intentional

17:06

open, and making this a very

17:08

intentional active process. I mean, it's so important. You

17:11

can't just wait for it to happen and hope

17:13

it does. No, there's a,

17:15

I mean, you're essentially choosing

17:17

to counter our culture. And

17:19

doing that requires vigilance and

17:21

tending. So I'm a cis

17:23

woman, and I'm married to a cis

17:25

man, like I am in a nuclear

17:28

family, right? And I think the challenge

17:31

that I realized in doing this work

17:34

is that I needed to be vigilant, right?

17:36

My husband and I need to be vigilant

17:38

about making sure that we're not closing ourselves

17:40

off. So I've really had

17:42

to create a regular

17:45

practice of making sure that

17:47

I'm having conversations with my

17:49

loved ones about our relationships.

17:52

I'm checking in with people. I'm

17:55

receiving when people check in with

17:57

me. One of the most...

18:00

powerful threads

18:02

throughout the whole

18:04

book is about how

18:06

allergic we are to asking

18:08

for help and

18:11

accepting help and

18:13

how powerful it is when we get over

18:15

that. Offering

18:19

support to folks I

18:21

found is so much more powerful for

18:23

them when it's specific. Instead of people

18:26

saying, let me know if you need

18:28

anything, I have been trying

18:30

to insert myself into

18:32

people's lives, crossing this boundary that

18:35

we think of in our

18:37

friendships, and trusting

18:39

the intuition I have about what I

18:41

know about people's experience and who they

18:43

are and offering something

18:45

that I actually think would be helpful. Saying

18:48

specifically, I know

18:51

you've been doing a lot of caretaking recently, can

18:53

I make extra of what I'm

18:55

making for dinner and bring it to you, as opposed

18:57

to saying, let me know if you need anything.

19:00

I think the same has been true for me. I

19:02

have a friend who in the beginning of COVID,

19:04

she would text me and a couple of other

19:06

people and say, hey, I'm going to the grocery

19:08

store, do you need anything? I

19:11

felt my resistance to

19:13

saying yes when I

19:15

knew that I'm out

19:17

of salt. I

19:20

cannot cook without salt. If

19:22

I can get this one thing, that means I

19:25

can wait to go to the grocery store for

19:27

another week. That's actually helpful for

19:29

me. I have said yes

19:31

every time she has texted because there's always one

19:33

or two things that I could use that would

19:36

just bring ease to my life. This

19:38

last time I actually texted her and I was like, hey,

19:40

next time you go, will you get us coffee? Because I

19:42

knew we were going to be out of coffee in a

19:44

minute and I would totally go to the

19:46

store just to get coffee, but who wants to do that? So

19:50

there's a way in which kind

19:52

of creating that cycle of support,

19:55

both giving and receiving support, lets

19:57

us know each other more deeply

19:59

and create. intimacy. And

20:01

I feel so much more

20:03

held and so much

20:06

less isolated because of

20:09

the, you know, the past couple of months, the way

20:11

in which I feel like me and the people I'm

20:13

in community with have accepted

20:16

support from each other and have offered support to

20:18

each other. And like,

20:20

that's one of the things that I that I'm excited

20:22

to take outside of,

20:24

you know, COVID is just

20:26

like, allowing people being vulnerable enough, right, to

20:28

allow people to know me in that way and to

20:30

be in my life in that way, and

20:32

to encourage other people in my

20:35

life to do the same. Yeah,

20:37

I mean, it's, I mean, being vulnerable

20:39

and allowing yourself to be seen in

20:41

a vulnerable state, even if it's a

20:43

mild thing, like I need this deepens

20:46

relationships. Yeah, no, I love that. And one of

20:48

the things that also comes up in the context

20:50

of that, I think is something that you speak

20:52

to, which is this

20:54

idea of, yes, and there

20:56

are moments also when you want to have

20:58

boundaries. But at the same time, you can

21:00

negotiate ways to interact with people. I know

21:03

one of the stories that you tell, I

21:05

thought it was a really fascinating way to

21:07

approach is you talk a lot about

21:10

also family around

21:12

food and kitchens and friendships and

21:14

how that enables all sorts of different things. And

21:17

how on the one hand, it's really nice to

21:19

sometimes just have people drop by. And

21:22

then there are other times where you

21:24

would feel like really intruded on. Somebody

21:26

just swung by and we certainly live in a culture now

21:28

where nobody I know in New York

21:30

City does that. You know, yeah, somebody

21:32

just knocked on my door, even it was a friend

21:34

of mine and said, Okay, hey, let's hang out. It'd

21:36

be awkward. Yeah, it'd be awkward. I'd be kind of

21:39

annoyed. I'm like, but it's

21:41

not that I don't want to see them. It's

21:43

really there's a context and the

21:45

way that you handled saying, Okay, how

21:48

do I make this to happen the way we all feel

21:50

good and comfortable? I thought it was really fascinating. Yeah,

21:52

so I, a friend

21:54

of mine talked about the fact that she would love for

21:57

people to drop by and I was like, both

21:59

like, like, yes, that would be great. And also like,

22:01

oh, hell no. Like, I don't want people to showing up

22:03

in my doorstep. Like I because like, if I don't want

22:06

to see them, that would just feel I would be annoyed,

22:08

like you said. So I was like, I

22:10

just need to create a container for like

22:12

a window in which like people are free

22:14

to drop by. So I created this thing

22:17

called drop by dinner. And I emailed like

22:19

20 people. And it had a set of

22:21

guidelines. And the first

22:23

was, you know, I don't

22:25

know if I'm gonna remember all of them. But like, basically,

22:28

like, I'm like, I'm not cleaning my

22:30

house. I'm not preparing you a meal,

22:32

you come over, bring something to

22:35

add to, you know, the the nourishment that

22:37

we're going to have, I will give you whatever

22:39

it is that I'm going to give my

22:41

own children. But I'm not this is

22:44

not me. I'm not hosting. Right. So that was part

22:46

of the thing. I was like, you don't have to

22:48

RSVP, you can just show up, you can tell me

22:50

you're going to show up and show up, you can

22:52

tell me you're going to show up and then not

22:54

show up and not explain it to me. It's really

22:56

like we're not trying to kind of

22:59

create replicate any kind of

23:01

like party situation. I also

23:03

made it clear that they could not bring anybody with them

23:05

unless it was their kids, because I didn't want

23:07

childcare to prevent people from showing up. But I

23:09

also did not want to extend this experience to

23:12

people like that I didn't

23:14

actually feel comfortable coming by my house when

23:16

it's a mess. And then I was also

23:18

like, don't leave my house messier

23:20

than you found it. Let's like clean the dishes,

23:22

even if I tell you not to. So

23:25

I sent it out

23:27

to a handful of people. And I think

23:30

15 people showed up at the first one

23:32

and it was spectacular. I was

23:34

wearing my pajamas. I don't think I had

23:36

taken a shower that day. Everybody,

23:39

you know, brought food. Some

23:41

people had been to my house multiple times. So they

23:43

knew where everything was. And some people had never

23:46

been there before and just got support from other

23:48

people and figuring out how to feed themselves and

23:50

get what they needed. And I

23:52

would just do it every few months. And I would,

23:54

you know, give people maybe a day's notice or a

23:56

week's notice. And sometimes three

23:58

people would show up sometimes 15 people

24:00

would show up. And having

24:03

my community collide

24:06

in that way, right? The various parts

24:08

of my community collide was fantastic. The

24:10

conversations that we had were always really

24:12

beautiful. And I loved just

24:14

the experience of having my loved ones

24:16

in my home. Yeah, I love that.

24:18

I think it's... I have

24:21

a feeling that as we emerge from this space, that

24:24

people are going to start to become more

24:26

open to things like this. And I think... I

24:28

love the fact that you're sort of out

24:30

there right now, planting the seed

24:33

to reimagine models and ways to gather and

24:35

ways to define friendship and family, so that

24:37

we can start to really think about this

24:39

more intentionally. How do we want to step

24:41

back into our relationships in our world and

24:43

reimagine it and recreate it? It feels like

24:45

a good place for us to come full

24:47

circle as well. So hanging out here in

24:49

this container of the Good Life Project, if

24:51

I offer up the phrase to live a

24:53

good life, what comes up? So

24:57

many things. I

25:00

think there's both kind

25:02

of like my own personal growth

25:06

and development that feels

25:08

important to me, and that that doesn't

25:10

happen outside the context of my loved

25:12

ones and the examples they give me

25:14

and the ways they support me. And

25:16

that that doesn't happen outside the context

25:19

of the people that I feel in

25:21

solidarity with, even if I don't know them. And

25:25

that that happens in the context of not

25:27

just my kind of human relations, but all

25:29

of our relations. One of the

25:31

things that I've leaned

25:34

more heavily on in this time of

25:37

physical isolation is nature,

25:39

right? Or the other parts of nature,

25:41

because human beings are nature. I'm like, I can hug

25:44

a tree. A tree is not going to give me

25:46

a virus, right? And I'm not going to make it

25:48

sick. So there is this web

25:51

that I feel like connects me with the

25:54

people closest to me, my other relations that

25:56

are close to me, and then ultimately all of us. And

25:58

that to me kind of. being in right relationship

26:00

with all of those things feels like what it means to

26:03

live a good life. Thank

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you. Thank you. And we'll

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thank you. Thanks

29:52

so much to Mia. I love how she's

29:54

igniting a reimagining of what family and community

29:56

can be and giving us so much to

29:58

reflect on about how. we show up for each

30:00

other. Next up is

30:03

Dr. Marisa Franco. She provides

30:05

research-backed insights on transforming your

30:07

relationships with empathy and with

30:09

wisdom. She reveals how to

30:11

overcome barriers to connection and just forge

30:14

deeper bonds, which we all want and

30:16

need now. Marisa's own

30:18

journey from grief over lost friendships

30:20

to finding belonging powerfully illustrates her

30:22

advice. I found myself nodding

30:25

along as she explained just really

30:27

practical ways to initiate friendships, resolve

30:29

conflict, and show up authentically for

30:31

others. She leaves us more

30:33

hopeful about the power of platonic love

30:35

to heal isolation. Here's

30:37

Marisa. You're deep dive into

30:39

not just the air of loneliness,

30:42

but adult relationships and friendships and

30:44

platonic relationships beyond romantic. This

30:46

has become a sustained professional devotion for

30:48

you and you've gone deep into the world,

30:51

but it's also personal and a lot of it started

30:54

in a very personal way. Yeah,

30:56

I mean for me it was, you

30:59

know, especially as a woman, just receiving

31:01

all these messages around romantic

31:03

love is what makes you worthy. If you

31:05

don't have a romantic partner, you don't have

31:07

love, you're not worthy, something's wrong with you,

31:09

right? And that

31:12

made me really take when I went through

31:14

these breakups when I was younger, it made

31:16

me really take them hard and feel like

31:19

so bad and it definitely

31:21

magnified my grief. I

31:24

decided to start this wellness group with my friends

31:26

to feel better where we met up and every

31:29

week we practiced wellness. It was meditating,

31:31

it was cooking, it was doing yoga,

31:33

it was eating cupcakes, it was cooking

31:35

dinner for one another. And

31:38

it was such a potent force in my

31:40

life. Like literally it was so visceral. Every

31:42

week I had these people that loved me

31:44

who I love and it just

31:46

got to the point where I was like,

31:49

I can't deny that this is meaningful. I

31:51

can't deny that this is beautiful. I can't

31:53

deny the gravity of this form of love

31:55

in my life when I have it being

31:57

shown to me every week with these people. I

32:00

feel so safe with. And

32:02

it was for me looking around and

32:04

thinking, I've been taught that

32:06

this love doesn't matter. I've been taught

32:08

that it is cancillary, superfluous, unnecessary.

32:11

I've been taught that I

32:13

should center my life around a different

32:15

form of love. And I've felt like

32:18

I had no love in my life,

32:20

right? And how does that make

32:22

any sense when I have like all of these

32:24

people that have loved me for such a long

32:26

time? And so I just felt like,

32:29

oh my gosh, these messages that

32:31

I've received are so damaging. And

32:33

I really feel like it's just so important

32:36

for me to unlearn them. And

32:38

not just that, I think that

32:40

my experience, like the personal is

32:42

political. I think Audre Lorde says

32:44

that, that my experience reflects a

32:46

larger societal, political kind of reality,

32:48

right? That all of us have

32:50

this internalized, this internalized

32:53

hierarchy, I'll say, of relationships

32:55

with these romantic relationships at

32:58

the top. And I really began to question that hierarchy

33:02

and to want to see, to

33:04

want to give myself permission to see

33:07

friendship for a sacred relationship that it could

33:09

be. And to almost stop

33:11

compartmentalizing love in a way, right? It's

33:13

like a, it's almost like a fetishization

33:15

of love, that romantic love is like

33:18

this ideal, like this lofty ideal, right?

33:20

Nothing comes close to it. And

33:22

now obviously having been through a lot

33:25

more relationships, seeing that every

33:27

relationship is good and also has

33:30

difficulties in romantic love is beautiful,

33:32

but platonic love is also beautiful. And

33:34

there's really no reason to put our

33:36

relationships on such a hierarchy. And I

33:38

think it makes so many of us

33:40

so isolated, whether we're single or we

33:42

are in a relationship, because if you

33:44

have this hierarchy and you're in a

33:46

relationship, then you try to get all

33:48

your needs met through one person. And tons

33:50

of research finds that like, that

33:52

is a recipe for disaster. It

33:54

harms your mental health. It harms the mental

33:56

health of your spouse. So I

33:58

really wrote platonic. wanting to be

34:01

like, hey, can we take a look at this

34:03

cultural script? Can we take a look at some

34:05

of the ways that it's actively

34:07

harming us? Can we take a look at how we're

34:09

so lonely and this may be a part of it?

34:12

To me, it's like we've always had this

34:14

gold under our feet in friendship, but we've just been

34:16

taught to see it as concrete. We don't see it

34:18

glimmer and we don't see it glitter even though it's

34:21

right in front of us. I

34:23

just wanted us to all see that

34:26

platonic love can be so, so

34:28

profound. I love that

34:30

and the notion that romantic

34:32

love, finding that one person

34:34

and then demanding

34:36

from them everything you need

34:38

in every relationship at all

34:40

times. It's like when you

34:42

sort of lay it out that way, you're like, oh,

34:44

that is utterly absurd. And yet that's the ideal we

34:46

hold ourselves to. Then every rom-com

34:49

movie, every book, it's all like,

34:51

this is what we aspire to

34:53

in life. Once you hit that

34:55

magic place, you don't really need

34:57

anybody else. And the

34:59

reality is just like the complete opposite.

35:01

And like you said, often

35:03

that assumption causes so much harm to us

35:06

individually and to the relationship and to those

35:08

we might be in partnership with. It's

35:11

also just not true. It's

35:13

those other relationships. And so often, I

35:16

feel like, I'm curious whether you see this in your work, when

35:19

people, even if you're somebody who finds

35:21

that one person, you end

35:24

up jettisoning. So many

35:26

of the other truly loving, sometimes long-term,

35:28

sustained relationships from your life. And

35:32

it actually does harm to those relationships, not intentionally,

35:34

not because you want to do it. It's sort

35:36

of like part of the set of assumptions that

35:38

you say yes to when you're trying to build

35:40

with this one other person. And

35:42

yet, it's like we just

35:45

allow these other things to fall away because all of a

35:47

sudden, they're not supposed to matter as much. And

35:49

you know what? I just think

35:51

biologically, we have always needed an

35:53

entire community to feel whole. And

35:56

that's no less true now. There's actually,

35:58

you know, we talked about lonely. There's

36:00

actually three types of loneliness, only one

36:03

of which can be fulfilled by a spouse,

36:05

which is intimate loneliness, the desire for a

36:07

very close intimate relationship. There's

36:09

relational loneliness, which is desire for a

36:12

relationship that's as close as a friend. And

36:14

then collective loneliness, which is a desire for a

36:17

group that's working towards a common goal. And

36:20

there's just all these other studies, for example, that

36:22

find that when I become friends with someone, I'm

36:25

less depressed, but also my spouse

36:28

becomes less depressed. But when I

36:30

have conflict within my marriage, my

36:32

potential marriage, I'm not married, but

36:35

I experienced stress hormone release

36:37

in dysregulated ways or wacky

36:39

ways, you know, my stress hormone

36:41

release just like gets off

36:43

kilter. But not if I have quality connection

36:45

outside of that marriage. Other

36:47

studies find that for women who are

36:49

particularly tend to be more experienced with

36:51

intimate friendships, when they go through difficult

36:53

experiences in their marriage, they tend to

36:55

be more resilient to those experiences. And

36:58

then these people that focus on one

37:00

person, what we see for them in

37:02

the research is that their mental health

37:04

really ebbs and flows with the health of

37:07

their relationship. Like if their relationship is not

37:09

okay, their mental health is not okay. Whereas

37:11

these people that have those connections outside, they

37:13

can stay centered even when their relationship

37:15

is going through the natural ebbs and

37:17

flows. And that is such

37:19

a resource, right, for me to get into

37:21

conflict with my spouse and return

37:23

to them in a way where I'm centered,

37:25

I'm no longer in fight or flight mode,

37:28

because I've relied on other people to bring

37:30

me back to that centered place. And then

37:32

I'm able to address this conflict with you

37:34

in a way in which I'm listening to

37:36

you, I have the capacity to hear you,

37:38

I have the capacity to try to communicate

37:40

in a way that's not attacking or threatening

37:42

you. Like, I just think why

37:46

sometimes I think we see these two relationships

37:48

as antagonistic, like you're spending time with your

37:50

friends, you're not spending time with me, but

37:52

really they're synergistic. Like you're spending

37:54

time with your friends, we're going to have

37:56

more quality time together then. So thank

37:58

you. Yeah. And that makes so

38:00

much sense, and yet I feel like sometimes

38:02

you'll hear about people who

38:04

look at those friendships that

38:07

exist outside of a central, intimate

38:10

or romantic relationship as a, quote, threat

38:13

to the relationship. Whereas in fact, what you're laying

38:15

out is like, no, like there's science on this.

38:18

You know, and the science says, no, if

38:20

anything, you know, they're going to help support

38:22

that relationship. They're going to make it easier for you

38:24

to come back to each other, you know, like when

38:26

a move through challenging moments in

38:28

a more grounded and open space. I'm

38:31

fascinated by just how we like layer

38:33

these assumptions and expectations into relationships in

38:35

a way that culturally we're told

38:37

is the way to do it. And yet, you

38:39

know, like the data is clear as day and

38:42

it's like, no, it's actually kind of the exact

38:44

opposite. So I love the invitation that you've been

38:46

offering to really kind of like just reimagine, you

38:49

know, how we build relationships.

38:53

But also, I think it's important to note that

38:56

doing this as a grown up is

38:58

not the easiest thing. It

39:00

is harder. Like it just it is. And

39:03

there's this sociologist, Rebecca G. Adams,

39:06

and she says, like, for friendship

39:08

to happen organically, we need repeated

39:10

unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability. And

39:13

that's what we have as kids like gym,

39:15

recess, lunch, ICU every day, we have these

39:17

settings where we can let our guard down,

39:19

right? As adults, we

39:22

don't have that. Like you can think of, okay,

39:24

the one place I see people every day is

39:26

work. But am I actually

39:28

vulnerable in work? Like do I actually like share a

39:30

deep maybe you do, Jonathan, but for

39:33

most people, right, they tend to go to work

39:35

and show like a certain side of them, a

39:37

certain dimension of them, a certain

39:39

persona, you know, a lot of the time, which

39:41

is why one study find that found

39:43

that the more time we spent together at work, the less

39:45

close that we feel. So

39:47

what that means is that friendship

39:50

in adulthood is not like friendship

39:52

in childhood. You cannot rely on the

39:54

same set of assumptions. Friendship

39:57

and adulthood does not happen organically.

40:00

I'm going to repeat that. It does

40:02

not happen organically. You

40:04

have to try. There was this one

40:07

study that looked at people that

40:09

saw friendship as happening based

40:11

on luck were lonelier five

40:13

years later. Whereas those that thought

40:16

it's happening based on effort were less

40:18

lonely five years later because they

40:20

made that effort. And I think

40:23

people are so afraid of

40:25

rejection. Right. But the reality is people

40:27

are less likely to reject you than you think.

40:29

Like we have this whole culture of lonely people

40:31

looking for connection, you know, and I think sometimes

40:33

we assume everybody has their friends when you know, the

40:36

data is telling us no, they do not. And,

40:39

you know, this is based on research

40:41

on something called the liking gap where

40:43

when strangers interact, they underestimate how likely

40:45

are by the other person. Right. So

40:48

that brings me to one of my favorite

40:50

tips that tends to really resonate with

40:52

people. You know, you have to initiate, you

40:55

know, you have to contact someone and say, Hey, it's so

40:57

great to connect with you. Like I'd love to connect further.

40:59

Right. You know, you have to do that. But

41:01

the psychological thing that has to happen

41:03

is you have to start assuming

41:06

people like you like start that

41:08

practice of reminding yourself people like

41:10

me. Right. And what this

41:12

will do for you, according to this research

41:14

on something called the acceptance prophecy, that when

41:17

people are told that based on

41:19

your personality profile, we predict

41:22

that you'll go into this group and be like,

41:25

they actually become warmer and friendlier

41:27

and more open. Whereas

41:29

you will notice that when you think people

41:31

are rejecting you, how does

41:33

that impact your behaviors? Like according to

41:36

the science, people that see rejection

41:38

all the time, they tend to be

41:40

colder, they tend to be more withdrawn.

41:42

If you think you're going to be

41:44

rejected, you reject people first. Like that's

41:46

what you do. Right. And so fundamentally

41:48

how you show up is like, people

41:51

might be rejecting you when you think you're being

41:53

rejected because you actually are rejecting them in terms

41:55

of how that's affecting your behavior. So assume

41:57

people like you, and then you're going to

42:00

have to initiate. You

42:02

talk about this distinction also between

42:04

what you phrase as covert and

42:06

overt avoidance. Tease us out for

42:08

me. Yeah, so I think we

42:10

were like, I want to

42:12

make friends. People are like, okay, sign up

42:15

for that group. You know, join that meetup

42:17

group, right? And you know, I

42:19

think back to myself in college, I want to make

42:21

friends. I think I joined like some

42:23

sort of like cultural group and I went to

42:25

one meeting and nobody

42:27

talked to me. Nobody said hi to

42:30

me. And I was like, they're very

42:32

clicky hair. I'm not going to return. And how

42:36

wrong I was. This is what I would tell my

42:38

younger self, right? To make

42:40

friends, you have to overcome overt avoidance,

42:42

which means you show up, right?

42:45

Overt avoidance is I'm scared, so I'm

42:47

staying home. But you also

42:49

have to overcome covert avoidance,

42:51

which means when you

42:53

are engaged in covert avoidance, you

42:56

show up physically, but you check out

42:58

mentally. I'm on my phone. I'm

43:00

walking away from the group. I'm talking to

43:03

the one person I already know, right? Like

43:05

you're not introducing yourself. Where's overcoming

43:07

that looks like I'm at that

43:10

group in college and I'm saying, oh, hey, like I'm

43:12

Marissa. It's so good to meet you. How have you

43:14

liked being a part of this group? Tell me more

43:16

about it. Like I'd love to hear, right? It's not

43:18

just showing up. That's going to make you friends. It's

43:21

that you actually have to engage with people when

43:23

you get there. Because like, to

43:25

be honest, like making friends is really,

43:27

I used to think these are all

43:30

my college misconceptions that, oh, if

43:32

I want to make friends in college, I have

43:34

to be funny. I have to be charismatic. I

43:36

have to be, you know, smart. I have to

43:38

say something that's going to make people flock

43:40

to me, right? But what

43:42

I know now, based on the

43:44

research and lived experience is that according

43:47

to this theory called the theory of

43:49

inferred attraction, people like people that

43:51

they think like them. And

43:53

the number one thing people look for

43:55

in a friend is someone that makes

43:57

them feel loved and valued. So

44:00

being good at making a friend is

44:02

not about changing your personality, it's changing

44:05

how you treat people. It's treating them

44:07

in a kind and loving way, right?

44:10

And fundamentally anything that you do to

44:12

convey to someone that you like them,

44:14

whether that's kindness or being generous towards

44:17

them or praising them, right, is going

44:19

to make it more likely that you're

44:21

going to form friendship with them. So

44:24

even when you overcome that covert avoidance and

44:26

you say, Hey, my name's Marissa,

44:29

like, how have you enjoyed this group so far?

44:31

It's so good to meet you. You know, what

44:33

that's doing is it's conveying to someone, I'm interested

44:35

in you as a person, right? And

44:37

that's the sort of underlying mechanism that explains

44:39

why it makes us friends. Yeah,

44:42

that makes so much sense to me. One of

44:44

the other things that you really talk about the context

44:46

of adult friendship, which is the notion of conflict, you

44:49

know, which is the notion of people

44:51

are going to make mistakes, people are going to mess up,

44:53

people are just going to get angry, either like for good

44:56

reason or for no good reason at all, conflict

44:58

is going to arise. And

45:01

you know, the way that we handle that in

45:04

the context of either an emerging

45:06

or established friendship, I

45:08

think is, is so critical in

45:10

whether that deepens the friendship or just

45:13

completely blows it up. Absolutely.

45:15

Conflict is where my anxious

45:18

attachment comes up the most.

45:20

Like you said, like your body kind of

45:23

taking over and feeling like it's on fire,

45:25

like that's what happens for me over

45:27

conflict. And I

45:29

tell the story in this in the book about how literally

45:32

my best friend had done a series of

45:34

small things that I had not addressed, and

45:36

I literally could see myself starting to withdraw

45:38

from her. And I

45:40

felt kind of stuck because I started to

45:43

recognize it's not helping this

45:45

relationship for me to evolve to avoid

45:47

this conflict, because now I'm withdrawing. But

45:50

also, if I address this conflict, my

45:52

anxiously attached side is telling me it's going

45:54

to get grisly, we're going to be

45:56

attacking each other, right? It's going to

45:59

be antagonistic. And

46:01

I read this study that really

46:03

changed things for me. It's in

46:06

people that are more secure around conflict. This might

46:08

not be a revelation, but it was for me.

46:11

And it found that having open

46:14

empathic conflict is actually linked to

46:16

deeper intimacy and

46:18

that people that are good at conflict

46:20

actually are less lonely. So

46:22

I'm like, oh, these people that are, and people

46:24

that really value friendship are more likely to have

46:26

conflict with their friends, bring up conflict with their

46:28

friends. So I'm like, oh, okay.

46:31

So conflict is part of healthy

46:33

relationships, part of the healthy behavior.

46:35

Like ignoring things is actually a

46:37

dysfunctional way to show up

46:39

in your friendships again, because you're just gonna withdraw. It's

46:42

not gonna go away. So

46:45

not only did I read that study, like research

46:47

is like my spiritual advisor, I'll say. I'm like,

46:49

I'm so confused. I'm not gonna call a

46:51

mentor. I'm just gonna start Googling, just like

46:53

info all the research studies. So

46:56

the research kind of showed me that I

46:58

could learn the skills of bringing

47:01

up conflict in a way that would make

47:03

it more likely that this is gonna go

47:05

well. So it first starts with

47:07

framing the argument, which involves framing

47:10

the conflict as a sign of

47:12

love and intimacy and reconciliation. So

47:15

me saying, hey, I bring this up because like I

47:17

really want us to stay close and I don't want

47:19

anything to get between us. So I just wanna make

47:21

sure I'm bringing things up as they come

47:23

up. So that doesn't happen. I love you so much.

47:26

Sharing the I statements, like I felt

47:29

X, I felt hurt when

47:31

you didn't respond to me at that

47:33

really important moment. Perspective taking,

47:35

but I was wondering what might be going

47:37

on on your end in that

47:40

moment. This was a

47:42

big one. Jeff Simpson, he's a researcher

47:44

he told me about because he said

47:46

secure people make other people look good

47:48

in conflict because they deescalate. So

47:51

there was a time when my best friend, I

47:54

brought up this conflict. I told her,

47:56

she said this thing that kind of hurt me. And she was

47:58

like, I'm gonna feel like I'm walking on egg. shells around

48:00

you. Like I feel like I do everything wrong.

48:02

And of course I could have escalated at that

48:04

point. You know, I was a little triggered, but

48:07

instead I said, you do so many things, right.

48:09

And I'm so sorry that I haven't conveyed to

48:11

you all the things that you do, right. All

48:13

the ways that you show up so well in

48:16

this friendship. Like literally there is this thing

48:18

that I want to talk about and work

48:20

through, but like, there's nothing, there

48:23

hasn't been anything else. Like all the other times

48:25

we interact, like I've just felt so good and

48:27

so comfortable and so loved by you. And so

48:29

being able to like deescalate, like hear

48:31

them out, validate their feelings, show them

48:34

love when they're like kind of being

48:36

reactive towards you. Like it's like a

48:38

next level conflict still. And

48:41

then ask for what your needs are. Like, okay,

48:43

next time this happens, could we do XYZ? Like

48:45

how would that be for you? And

48:48

then I'm like, Oh,

48:50

this is what conflict can be.

48:53

It's like reconciliation. It's like collaboration.

48:55

It's not like a mutual

48:57

attack on one another. And the other thing

48:59

that I realized because, guys, in

49:01

one of my gripes about her, she

49:03

did not do like, it was like, I think I sent

49:06

her my book proposal and I never heard

49:08

back from her about it. And

49:11

she did respond to me. I didn't see

49:13

the email. So I realized by

49:15

not bringing up conflict, I am

49:18

holding you guilty without giving you a

49:20

trial. Right. It's like, that's really unfair

49:22

for me to not bring up this

49:25

problem. When you might've had some extenuating

49:27

circumstances or fundamentally, I might've been perceiving

49:29

things wrong, right? And that will change

49:31

how this fits with me. So it's

49:33

almost like, that's just reconcile. Let's

49:35

come to a mutual sense of reality right

49:38

now. That's going to help us emotionally be

49:40

able to move forward in this friendship. I

49:42

think so much of the conversation is really

49:44

sort of like if you zoom the ones

49:46

out, it's about really, really being

49:49

willing to just step back

49:51

into conversation relationship with other

49:53

people, be real, be

49:55

open, be vulnerable and do it in

49:57

a way that. doesn't

50:00

make you melt down in the process and

50:02

go running for the hills. Because as you

50:05

shared in the beginning of this conversation, these

50:07

relationships matter. It's

50:10

like there's, even if you

50:12

do have that one person who's a deep and

50:14

like they're your quote person, like

50:17

quoting Meredith Gray, right? That's Sandra

50:19

Oh. We

50:23

all still meet others, and

50:26

those other platonic, intimate, like deeply

50:28

loving friendships. Feels like

50:30

a good place to come full circle as well.

50:32

So in this container of good life project, if

50:35

I offer up the phrase to live a good

50:37

life, what comes up? You

50:39

must see others

50:42

and be seen. Thank

50:44

you. And we'll be

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51:56

Hi, this is Craig Robinson from Way to

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The future isn't scary,

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at ford.com. Built Ford Tough,

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Built Ford Paul. So

53:22

I love how Marissa is bringing more light

53:24

to the profound power of platonic love and

53:27

giving us so much inspiration and

53:29

practical guidance on overcoming loneliness through

53:31

friendship. And our final guest

53:33

in this spotlight conversation on friendship is

53:36

Dr. Joy Hardin-Bradford, hosted

53:38

the wildly popular podcast Therapy for Black

53:40

Girls. Through her work with

53:42

Therapy for Black Girls and her vital

53:45

new book Sisterhood Heels, Joy

53:47

really illuminates the soul nourishing magic that

53:49

happens when black women gather in circles.

53:52

With wisdom and care, she reveals how

53:54

group dynamics can strengthen bonds if you

53:56

understand them. And she shares a really

53:59

touching story. of women's meaning,

54:01

refuge, and wisdom, and growth together.

54:04

Above all, she leaves us more

54:06

hopeful about the power of prioritizing

54:08

platonic love and sisterhood

54:11

and friendship and circles and

54:13

supporting each other through life's

54:15

journey. Join us for an

54:17

inspiring and powerful exploration of

54:20

the transformative force of sisterhood. Here's Dr.

54:22

Joy. When I talk about

54:24

sisterhood, I'm specifically talking about the

54:26

relationships between black women and not

54:28

a familiar way, right? Like your

54:30

sister as your biological sister, your

54:32

adopted sister, but the sisterhood that

54:34

exists kind of simply because we

54:36

are all black women. And these

54:38

relationships that can be very close, but

54:41

also just, I see you in the grocery store, I

54:43

see you in school and there's

54:45

like a shared understanding, there's a shared

54:47

history. And my experience has

54:49

been that, that has been very healing

54:51

for black women. And we typically find

54:53

ourselves in circles. So whether it is

54:56

as a part of a knitting group

54:58

or a church group, or if it

55:00

is your more intimate friend group, it

55:02

typically happens within a circle. And those

55:04

dynamics that I just talked about that

55:06

are happening in group therapy, also

55:09

happening in our circles. And so it

55:11

felt important to talk about the

55:13

things that I've learned as a therapist and

55:15

somebody who has practiced group therapy and to

55:17

help people understand like, hey, these are some

55:19

of the same dynamics happening in your life.

55:21

And here's how we can use this to

55:23

make the relationship stronger. It's

55:26

interesting, obviously, middle-aged white male,

55:30

I step into it and what you're

55:32

describing, I can't experience, I'll never experience

55:34

in the same way, clearly. And

55:36

yet the notion of sisterhood, the

55:38

notion of circles, the fundamental

55:41

construct of coming together is

55:43

deeply resonant for me and is deeply resonant for a

55:45

lot of people. You walk through

55:47

some really interesting ideas or like guideposts

55:49

and keys, like if we're gonna come

55:52

together and do it in a healthy way,

55:54

in a functional way, in a supportive way, what

55:56

really matters? What are the important things to think

55:58

about? And what are the... dynamics

56:00

to expect to unfold. So

56:03

I'd love to walk through some of those. You introduced this

56:05

notion of sisterhood and the four S's. So

56:08

tell me about the four S's. Yeah,

56:10

so the four S's of sisterhood are the

56:12

kind of, I think, when

56:14

I think about like the guiding themes of like

56:16

what makes sisterhood so powerful and what makes it

56:18

so magical, I think, in a lot of ways.

56:20

I think about it in terms of these four

56:22

S's. So four S's are

56:24

that sisterhood allows us to be

56:26

seen. So we're not invisible to

56:29

one another, which I think is really, really

56:31

important. It allows us to soften.

56:33

But there are so many places in our lives

56:35

that we have to kind of put on this

56:37

like really heavy armor to show up. And in

56:40

sisterhood and in relationship with one another, we don't have

56:42

to do that. So it allows us to soften. It

56:44

allows us to know more about ourselves and

56:47

allows other people to kind of know

56:49

us better. So it allows us to have

56:51

a greater sense of knowing who we are.

56:54

There's a lot about us. I think

56:56

just generally we don't know. It

56:58

shows up in relationship to one another. And

57:01

so I think in engaging in deep sisterhood in

57:03

relationship with one another, we have a greater knowing

57:05

of ourselves. And then the fourth

57:07

S is that it allows us to support other

57:09

people and it allows us to be

57:12

supported. The way you're describing those

57:14

four S's, it feels like

57:16

they're each speaking to a specific pain.

57:19

If you talk about like one of the S's is being seen,

57:21

well, then the pain would be not being

57:23

seen or being invisible. To

57:26

soften, I guess the assumption under

57:28

that would be that you feel like that

57:30

outside of that circle, the safety of that

57:32

circle, that sisterhood, that you've

57:35

got to take on the persona of being hard, of

57:37

being tough, a variety of reasons

57:39

that are very valid reasons. But there's

57:41

a pain, there's a cost to that.

57:44

And that there needs to be a place where you've

57:46

got to be able to drop that to

57:49

be able to just breathe and be okay. Yeah,

57:51

I mean, if we go back to our

57:54

earlier conversation around like all of the mental

57:56

health implications of loneliness, there are some very

57:58

real mental health implications too. this

58:00

idea that we need to be tough and

58:02

strong and on all the time. It's just

58:04

not sustainable, but I think a lot of

58:07

black women find themselves in spaces where they

58:09

feel like they can't drop that armor. And

58:12

I'm arguing that with one another, we

58:14

can create those spaces where we don't have to have

58:16

that armor on all the time. It's

58:18

interesting. Also, you described that people tend

58:20

to gravitate towards certain common

58:23

roles within a group. And

58:25

you described these four, the leader, the

58:27

wallflower, firecracker, and peacemaker. Walk me

58:29

through these really quickly because clearly we have all

58:31

either been or been in a

58:34

group with people who play in those roles. Yeah. And

58:37

it's important to know that these are not like

58:39

absolute and you might find yourself kind of between

58:41

roles and different in different groups, which I think

58:43

is interesting. But the wallflower

58:45

is kind of the person in the group

58:47

who is mostly quiet and they may not

58:50

be saying a lot, but when they do

58:52

speak, like everybody pays attention because it tends

58:54

to be really impactful. The

58:56

leader of the group is kind of what a

58:58

leader you would expect is kind of the person

59:00

who takes the responsibility for organizing when y'all get

59:02

together. They probably are the person that

59:04

hosts. And like, you know, all of the details

59:07

and like the stuff that really makes a group

59:09

move, the leader typically kind of takes that on.

59:11

The firecracker is the person who kind of will

59:14

say the thing that needs to be said, but

59:16

not always in the tactful kind of ways.

59:18

But you know, again, those kinds of

59:20

things are important for like moving a group forward.

59:23

And then the peacemaker is the person where, you

59:25

know, if a couple of people in the group

59:27

are not talking, they are the one who's going

59:29

to try to bring them together. Like let's talk

59:31

this out. They're kind of the voice of reason

59:33

in a group. What you're

59:35

describing also, it's interesting because you're

59:37

taking these dynamics from sort of a controlled

59:40

group therapy and saying, like, let me share

59:42

a whole bunch of guideposts and invitations and

59:44

offerings out so that to

59:46

create sisterhoods in circles that are

59:48

functional and healthy. But

59:51

it occurs to me, like, you've got

59:53

to be relatively self-aware to

59:55

keep the dynamic healthy in

59:58

a group because if you're not not

1:00:00

aware of your own inner thoughts

1:00:02

and workings and feelings, let alone

1:00:04

the group dynamic. It's

1:00:06

hard to notice what is and isn't happening and what's

1:00:08

real and what's not real and respond to it in

1:00:10

a functional way. Isn't that the

1:00:13

importance of doing our work for

1:00:15

any relationship? Yeah, right. I think

1:00:17

that there is a level of self-awareness. Of

1:00:20

course, not everybody has, but I think to

1:00:22

make most relationships work and make them function,

1:00:24

it really does require us to be present

1:00:27

and aware of what we're bringing to the

1:00:29

table and how we get activated by certain

1:00:31

things and whether we shut down or whether

1:00:33

we go too far. I

1:00:36

think all relationships call that from us. Again,

1:00:39

the goal is not for people

1:00:41

to run their own mini-therapy groups.

1:00:44

It really is like, okay, how can you just be more

1:00:46

aware of these things and pay attention

1:00:48

to the fact that these dynamics exist

1:00:50

and use them to your advantage to

1:00:52

help everybody out? One of the

1:00:54

other things I thought was really interesting that you share

1:00:56

is important to think about, a source

1:00:58

of potential conflict. It

1:01:01

is the notion of differences

1:01:03

in values, which I thought was really

1:01:05

interesting because you could come together as

1:01:08

a group and share a lot of history.

1:01:10

But sharing history doesn't necessarily mean that you

1:01:13

see the world the same way or that

1:01:15

you share the same values. Talk

1:01:17

to me more about how this shows up. Yeah, and I

1:01:19

think that there are some things that are

1:01:21

like just differences and preferences, whether

1:01:24

you like Coke and I like Pepsi, those kinds of

1:01:26

things. But what I'm really

1:01:28

talking about is, are you fundamentally

1:01:31

opposed to who I am in the world

1:01:33

or how I show up? We saw this

1:01:35

a lot during the pandemic. I think a

1:01:37

lot of friend groups were shaken up

1:01:39

around decisions to get the vaccine or not

1:01:42

get the vaccine. Decisions to mask or

1:01:44

not mask. People who had

1:01:46

a higher risk tolerance and were still out

1:01:48

doing things and other people who had a

1:01:50

lower risk tolerance. I don't think people really

1:01:53

understood how to navigate that because in a

1:01:55

lot of ways, those kinds

1:01:57

of things had not entered friendship

1:01:59

groups. before. And so I think the

1:02:01

pandemic really gave people a chance to kind

1:02:03

of explore values and like, what does this

1:02:05

really mean? And so I think, you know,

1:02:08

sometimes we get to a place where we

1:02:10

realize like a friendship may not be able to

1:02:12

continue because we just fundamentally see

1:02:14

the world differently in a way that

1:02:16

clashes like with my humanity. And I

1:02:19

think again, the pandemic really brought that to

1:02:21

light for a lot of people. Yeah,

1:02:23

I mean, that really flows into a

1:02:26

conversation that you have around life cycles

1:02:28

with sisterhoods with circles with friendships, and

1:02:31

that some are meant to last for a long

1:02:33

time. And some are not.

1:02:35

And sometimes they end sometimes in individual

1:02:37

friendship and sometimes an entire sisterhood as

1:02:39

you know, like a circle dynamic ends,

1:02:41

maybe even after years. And there's

1:02:45

a real grief experience that happens when that

1:02:47

comes to be. Yeah, and

1:02:49

you know, I think a lot of

1:02:51

times we don't think about like the

1:02:53

grief related to a friendship because it's

1:02:55

not somebody dying, right? Like, I think

1:02:57

a lot of our society really only

1:02:59

has rituals for the death of

1:03:02

someone, but there's grief we experience because of

1:03:04

lots of different things. And so I talk

1:03:06

about this sense of disenfranchised grief, which means

1:03:08

that people don't take it as seriously when

1:03:10

you lose a friendship, because they feel like

1:03:12

oh, you have other friends or there are

1:03:15

other people. And so then you're left with

1:03:17

like this, this real sense of grief just

1:03:19

as if someone had died, but like, nobody's

1:03:21

really paying attention to it, or they're not

1:03:23

giving it the same credence. And so then

1:03:25

you're just kind of left with all of

1:03:27

these feelings, and not sure how to make

1:03:30

sense of it. And so I think when

1:03:32

that happens, it is really important to find

1:03:34

somebody who's not going to make you feel ashamed,

1:03:36

because a friendship has ended and to you know,

1:03:38

to be able to find a supportive community of

1:03:40

people who will allow you to talk through, you

1:03:42

know, for as long as you need to. they're

1:04:00

just not there anymore. Yet

1:04:02

nobody wants to be the person. Because

1:04:05

that comes up, you know? And

1:04:07

that, I think, is really dicey

1:04:09

also. How do

1:04:11

you navigate those moments? I think

1:04:14

it is really hard for us as a

1:04:16

society to say goodbyes. So

1:04:18

I talk about this in the book, but it

1:04:20

is really important to say goodbye, to

1:04:22

offer yourself some sense of closure to

1:04:24

relationships that have been important, even if

1:04:26

you know that they are not going

1:04:28

to continue. And so I

1:04:30

think the tendency, or some people's kind

1:04:32

of inclination would be to just stop

1:04:35

calling, or to just kind

1:04:37

of slowly ghost out of the picture. But

1:04:39

in talking with lots of women, that

1:04:41

kind of ghosting experience is

1:04:43

actually far more painful than

1:04:45

somebody saying, okay, we've come

1:04:48

to the end of the road. And

1:04:50

so I think if you find yourself in a

1:04:52

situation where you know you're gonna have to end

1:04:54

a friendship, it is the kindest thing for both

1:04:56

you and the person to be able to actually

1:04:59

say to them, whatever it is going

1:05:01

on, right? Like, I don't feel like we see the

1:05:03

world the same, or I feel

1:05:05

like I've been betrayed, or whatever it is that's leading

1:05:07

you to end the friendship, it's important to be able

1:05:09

to say that to the person so that they're

1:05:11

not left kind of making up their own stories

1:05:14

about what happened and what could have been different.

1:05:16

Because again, it just leaves you with all

1:05:18

these questions and wondering, what did you do

1:05:21

wrong? Did I overstep? It

1:05:23

just is a barrel of questions.

1:05:25

And it is never easy to end a

1:05:28

relationship. Nobody wants to have that awkward conversation.

1:05:30

But again, I think you owe it to

1:05:32

yourself and to this person who at one

1:05:34

point did mean a lot to you to offer

1:05:36

them some kind of resolution and letting them

1:05:39

know this is where you're standing, you're moving

1:05:41

on. Yeah, and that kind of

1:05:43

brings us, let's circle all

1:05:45

the way back around. We

1:05:48

can't talk about any relationships without

1:05:50

also talking about, how do we

1:05:52

actually start them? And I think that is

1:05:54

something that so many struggle with now. It's

1:05:56

like, how do you actually find those

1:05:58

new people in the context you're talking about? talking about

1:06:00

like how do you find new black

1:06:02

and brown women to bring into a sisterhood,

1:06:04

to bring into a circle, like more broadly,

1:06:07

how does any grown up do that?

1:06:09

Because as a kid, we're just in

1:06:11

these constructs that automatically bring us together

1:06:13

in community with people who we share

1:06:16

history or likeness with. But

1:06:18

as adults, it's almost like we now have

1:06:20

to proactively go and do these things. And

1:06:22

you speak to this in a bunch of different

1:06:25

ways in the book, but share some thoughts here

1:06:27

because I think this is not just intuitive for

1:06:29

most people. It is not. It's not. And you're

1:06:31

right. Like when we're young, like we're in class

1:06:33

with all these kids. And so these become our

1:06:35

friends, right? And you know, once you're older and

1:06:37

not in college settings or education settings, it's just

1:06:39

much more difficult. And so one thing

1:06:42

that I suggest is to pay attention to the people

1:06:44

who are kind of in the background of your life,

1:06:46

who could actually become maybe more of the

1:06:48

foreground. So is there somebody that you kind

1:06:50

of see in your Pilates class all the

1:06:52

time and y'all exchange pleasantries, but it doesn't

1:06:54

go much further? Or is there a mom

1:06:56

that you see in the carpool line that

1:06:58

you know, you're kind of friendly with, but

1:07:00

it doesn't go any further than carpool and

1:07:02

thinking about like, okay, is there an opportunity to

1:07:04

make some of those relationships a little bit more

1:07:07

formal, a little bit more intense? So can you

1:07:09

say like, Hey, do you want to grab a

1:07:11

smoothie after Pilates or like, Oh,

1:07:13

we should really grab lunch before we head to

1:07:15

the carpool line so that you can take some

1:07:17

steps to maybe get to know these people

1:07:20

a little better, but not necessarily with the expectation

1:07:22

that they're going to be like lifelong friends. You're

1:07:24

just kind of putting yourself out there to, you

1:07:26

know, kind of widen your circle of people who

1:07:29

could become close to you. Yeah. I

1:07:31

mean, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, you know,

1:07:33

the notion of also finding places where somebody

1:07:36

else has already done the work of gathering

1:07:38

the people who you want to be in

1:07:40

community with, and this is exactly what you've

1:07:42

done for years, right? With therapy for black

1:07:44

girls, with three for Thursdays, you've

1:07:47

created this incredible space. Tell me more about the

1:07:49

space and how people show up in it. Yeah,

1:07:52

so three for Thursdays is this thing

1:07:54

I started I think before the pandemic,

1:07:56

but definitely became much more intense during

1:07:58

the pandemic. But every Thursday, at 12

1:08:00

noon we jump on Zoom so people can

1:08:02

sign up for the Zoom link. It's a

1:08:05

free session to participate in and we talk

1:08:07

about some particular topic. So we may talk

1:08:09

and I typically have three points to share

1:08:11

for people. So three ways to be more

1:08:13

assertive, three things to think about as you

1:08:15

think about spring cleaning, like whatever the topic

1:08:17

is, I kind of pick random topics but

1:08:20

people can also suggest topics. And

1:08:22

I share the three points and then we

1:08:24

have conversation around you know what resonates for

1:08:26

people, how have they seen this work in their

1:08:28

own lives. But people also will

1:08:30

like give us updates off previous sessions

1:08:32

or there will be questions unrelated to

1:08:35

the topic that people will have. And

1:08:37

so it really has just become a

1:08:39

very very cool space for women to kind

1:08:41

of get together to support one another, to

1:08:43

laugh with one another, to hold each other

1:08:45

accountable. And it's just really like I think

1:08:47

a glowing example of like what sisterhood actually

1:08:49

can look like in practice because the women

1:08:52

don't necessarily know one another beyond getting together

1:08:54

every Thursday but certainly some of them have

1:08:56

gotten closer because you know they kind of

1:08:58

continue to see each other in this space.

1:09:00

And so I think it is just a

1:09:02

great example of the kinds of spaces where

1:09:05

you can find people who you know can

1:09:07

become a part of your circle. Yeah I

1:09:09

love that also because we're talking

1:09:11

about gathering through technology and

1:09:14

I think a lot of people have the, even though we've

1:09:16

all been sort of trained to be much more

1:09:18

comfortable with it over the last three years, there's

1:09:21

still a lot of resistance. I think there's a

1:09:23

lot of assumptions that maybe like that's not as

1:09:25

real and certainly it's not the same

1:09:27

as being in person with people. But

1:09:29

I think like what you've created this

1:09:31

like just stunning global community, it's

1:09:34

proof positive that really

1:09:36

deep rich powerful connections can happen in

1:09:38

the virtual space. Don't write it off.

1:09:41

Exactly yeah I do want people to

1:09:43

make sure they are paying attention to

1:09:45

being open to digital kinds of

1:09:47

connections because you're right like it may not

1:09:50

be exactly the same but I think that

1:09:52

there are some very powerful connections and very

1:09:54

great relationships that can be formed even

1:09:56

when you connect in digital spaces because

1:09:58

it really is about the consistency. consistency.

1:10:00

It's about peeling back the layers. All of

1:10:03

those things are important, and those things can

1:10:05

happen digitally. Yeah. So

1:10:07

as we start to wrap

1:10:09

our conversation, zoom in on that a little

1:10:11

bit, what's your big invitation? What's

1:10:14

your big hope for people as they start

1:10:16

to think about all the ideas that you've

1:10:18

been offering? I really want

1:10:21

people to center platonic relationships

1:10:23

in their lives and to really

1:10:25

dig deeper into how we can support one

1:10:28

another better and really show up for one

1:10:30

another, but also allow other people to show

1:10:32

up for us. Because I think a lot

1:10:34

of us find ourselves as like the go-getters,

1:10:37

kind of the one who is checking on other

1:10:39

people. But I also really think it's important for

1:10:41

us to be able to ask for help and

1:10:43

allow ourselves to be in spaces of vulnerability with

1:10:46

one another. So coming full circle,

1:10:48

I've asked you this very same question, but it's

1:10:50

a chunk of years ago now, and the world

1:10:52

has changed, and we've all changed. If

1:10:55

I offer up the phrase, to live a good life, what

1:10:57

comes up? To live a

1:10:59

good life means to be intentional

1:11:01

and purposeful about establishing meaningful connections

1:11:03

with other people. Thank

1:11:06

you. So

1:11:08

I don't know about you, but I

1:11:10

just really feel like those were a

1:11:12

lot of powerful heart-opening conversations. I'm so

1:11:14

grateful to Mia and Marissa and Joy

1:11:16

for shining a light on life-changing magic

1:11:18

of showing up with presence and care,

1:11:21

vulnerability in our relationships. Their stories

1:11:23

and insights, they have inspired me

1:11:25

to really nourish my own connections

1:11:28

with greater intention. And I

1:11:30

hope this episode left you feeling uplifted

1:11:32

and empowered to cultivate extraordinary bonds that

1:11:34

your soul just might be yearning for.

1:11:36

And if you love this episode, be

1:11:38

sure to catch the full conversations with

1:11:40

today's guests. You can find a link

1:11:42

to those episodes in the show notes.

1:11:45

This episode of Good Life Project

1:11:47

was produced by executive producers, Lindsey

1:11:49

Foxx and me, editing

1:11:52

help by Alejandro Ramirez, Christopher Carter,

1:11:54

Crafted Art Of

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1:12:48

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