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1:24

Music, radio,

1:26

podcasts. Hi guys, I'm

1:29

Rylan and I'm appearing in the Grounded

1:31

with Louis Theroux feed because I want to tell

1:33

you about my Radio 4 podcast, How

1:35

To Be A Man. Over 10 episodes,

1:38

I'm exploring what masculinity means today.

1:40

What are the problems that men are facing? How

1:43

should we educate boys? And what are

1:45

the issues around toxic masculinity? In

1:49

one interview, I speak to fashion model

1:51

David Gandy

1:52

and you're now about to hear part of the interview. Enjoy.

2:02

I'm Rylan and this is How To Be A Man from

2:05

BBC Radio 4 And I'm

2:07

here to talk about men, because

2:09

in recent years we have all seen the man in

2:11

Britain undergo radical change as

2:13

the rule book has been well and truly ripped

2:16

apart, and with yet no replacement, it's

2:18

never been a more confusing time for the male

2:21

of the species. So I'm gathering together

2:23

a range of prominent figures and celebs

2:25

who have all got their own diverse and contrasting

2:28

experiences to share on what it means

2:30

to be a man today. My guest

2:32

in this episode is a supermodel and

2:35

a fellow Essex boy, that's

2:36

right, a male supermodel who

2:39

is from glamorous Bill of Ricky just 7

2:42

miles down the road from me. He

2:44

first came into the spotlight modelling for an aftershave

2:46

campaign, wearing only

2:49

a tiny pair of wax and women trunks, which

2:51

I remember very well, that body

2:53

glistening with oil and yeah, his

2:55

pecs were ripped and shining in the sunlight. Sorry,

2:58

I got a bit distracted by that. He

3:00

is arguably the most famous male model

3:02

in the world, a world in which it's women

3:05

who earn the megabucks.

3:06

Please welcome David Gandy.

3:10

David, so nice to see you. Thanks

3:12

for having me. I mean, you are a handsome chaff,

3:14

aren't you? Well

3:17

that's very kind of you. I'm just using this podcast for dating

3:19

though. Probably not this morning, my daughter was

3:22

up virtually all night with

3:24

a bit of illness so I'm feeling a little bit worse

3:26

for wear this morning. Well you got away with it, let

3:29

me tell you. This

3:31

series is all about exploring masculinity.

3:34

How masculine are you feeling today?

3:36

Whatever the definition of masculine is and

3:38

I think that's the problem.

3:40

It's really difficult,

3:42

really really difficult. For a start, what

3:45

I just sort of said with my daughter, I was up all

3:47

night with my daughter in

3:50

bed with her, made sure she was okay, got

3:52

her up this morning, made her breakfast.

3:55

That role

3:56

as a start has changed for men. My

4:00

dad, bless him, would not

4:02

have done that. He would have been out to work and

4:04

that would have been mum's job. You know, I saw a joke

4:06

with my dad shuts a cup of door in

4:08

the kitchen and that he thinks is helpful. Dad

4:11

couldn't make toast. He

4:14

would struggle. But those rules have changed.

4:16

And I think we're the first generation of

4:18

those defining rules. My rules as I

4:20

cook, I love flowers, I dress.

4:23

Why are you rubbing it in? Why are you rubbing this in? But

4:26

I think from where you come from as well, I know you're

4:29

what I would call, a someone who lives in Essex,

4:30

a default. Because

4:34

you've shunned Essex. I haven't shunned

4:36

Essex. You've turned your back and

4:38

now you're a West boy, I'm gonna say. I

4:40

am, I am. But growing up, that stereotypical

4:43

Essex man, it genuinely was

4:46

and still is a thing. Moving out

4:48

to Essex, everyone was a lot of

4:50

people, like my parents and like my grandparents, all

4:52

started in the East End. Yeah, same. Friends

4:54

were, they were. The craze. The

4:57

craze. Come on, we're all related.

4:59

One of my friends has a picture

5:00

in his house of his dad sitting on the craze knees.

5:03

Yes. You know, we knew

5:05

who the families who were connected to East

5:07

London. You're talking to a boy from Stepney. I'm fully aware.

5:09

So yes, that masculine element

5:12

to it, whether that is masculine, you know,

5:14

again, you're defining that as that's masculine and

5:17

this is not. Growing up in Essex. What

5:20

was your childhood like? Very normal,

5:22

whatever that is. And people would describe you as normal.

5:24

And I always think, I wonder what that is. I wonder what normal,

5:27

what normality is. But they meet me and they say you're

5:29

very normal, which I, hopefully,

5:31

I mean, they're quite humble, a bit like yourself. You

5:33

speak to everyone. Oh, I don't like anyone. Don't look me in

5:35

the eye. Do not

5:38

look me directly in the eye, David. But

5:40

I know what you mean. But you know what I mean? Like, when I went

5:42

to Billy Ricky comprehensive and you

5:45

know, my weekends from the age of nine, 10,

5:47

I used to get on my bike, my roller skates, roller

5:50

skates over to my friend Anthony Parker's

5:52

house, which was four miles across town. My

5:54

dad didn't know where I was next day. So

5:57

it was very normal. Very normal. Yeah.

5:59

figures that you grew up around. So

6:02

I had a probably like so many people

6:04

with my father, my grandfather. My grandfather,

6:06

he worked at number 10. Wow.

6:08

When Margot, he was the staff at

6:10

number 10. What did he do? He was a

6:13

member of the staff. He was the prime minister. He

6:16

is the incredible story of meeting all the presidents

6:19

of the United States and he was just part of the staff

6:21

so he wasn't part of the Tories or anything else. He

6:23

was part of the Royal Marines on

6:25

D-Day. That's quite a masculine job. That's

6:27

a fairly masculine job. My grandmother

6:29

told me the story of she would never

6:31

know when my grandfather was coming off leave if he did and

6:34

then she would be in a dance hall and my

6:36

grandfather would be there in full Royal

6:38

Marine uniform and he'd never danced.

6:41

He would never dance. So my grandmother was a

6:43

really impressive dancer. He would dance with her? No.

6:46

Wow. So he just stood there and at the end

6:49

he was like Doreen, come on. Come

6:51

and Doreen were out. Yeah. He also tells me another story

6:53

when he walked out with my grandmother

6:55

once and three American soldiers.

6:58

Wolf whistled my nan and he went over and beat the

7:00

shit out of all three of them and went and come Doreen. Again,

7:02

quite a masculine thing on paper. He

7:06

was born in Poplin. He'd say like that was

7:09

what you thought. That was it.

7:11

So that was him. What about your father? My father,

7:14

again, like all my family worked their way

7:16

out. They're all kind of entrepreneurs and started their own companies.

7:19

Didn't have a father, quite impoverished background,

7:21

worked his way up. The two things my grandfather

7:23

and my father both taught me is not

7:25

about masculinity, it's about being a gentleman. It

7:28

was just you respect people. You have empathy.

7:30

You're kind to people. Yes, you need

7:32

to be strong in the right cases but

7:34

it's very much about protecting people, protecting

7:37

the people around you, being

7:39

respectful and that's what my grandfather

7:41

and

7:42

dad taught me. You open a door, you look

7:44

after people, you're a gentleman. That's what

7:46

they'd find as a gentleman. I just think that's a kind person. No,

7:48

it's just smiling at people. This is very...

7:51

I'm always smiling because I can't shut my mouth the

7:54

size of my teeth.

7:56

I do it sometimes when we're in Richmond Park and where

7:58

we live at the moment and if you smile...

7:59

with someone they smile back they're

8:02

slightly shocked by it morning in morning well

8:04

especially if it's you it's those small

8:06

little things I always believe believe me I'm quite

8:08

a grump we're

8:10

allowed to be people probably walking me in which my case he does

8:13

not do that whatsoever I want to talk to you about

8:15

appearance because I don't

8:17

know if you know but

8:18

you're a model if

8:21

I had to draw a masculine

8:23

man right that I think

8:26

would be the classic male

8:28

stereotype I would probably draw

8:30

your face I would need to draw a landscape

8:32

with a lot of paper to get this nose in there

8:35

listen you know they say big nose big half so

8:39

but genuinely I would look at you

8:41

and think you are the

8:44

classic gentleman I'm gonna use

8:46

that word masculine man that

8:49

you are that vision to me but

8:51

appearance for you hasn't always

8:53

been your thing it hasn't always been your forefront

8:56

yeah I mean it's not I think

8:58

people think I care about my

9:00

appearance more than I actually

9:02

do they just presume you're a model or your

9:04

vein that's what you know if you saw me dropping

9:07

off at the nursery run in the morning look at what I'm wearing

9:09

doing that day and I you know

9:11

it's um whatever I can chuck

9:13

on to get into the car and it doesn't really

9:16

matter so um I've never been

9:18

that defined as worrying about my

9:20

appearance and much you know people think I have this massive

9:22

wardrobe I've got stylus and glam teams

9:24

and which lots of people do they been in makeup for four

9:29

hours just for a podcast when

9:32

I came to the industry it was about the androgynous

9:35

skinny man yeah and I

9:37

was called the big guy and I wasn't even that big back then

9:40

but I thought you know it has to go in circles

9:42

and fashion does until that point to when

9:45

Dolce came to look for light

9:47

blue that

9:48

they were looking for this a Mediterranean

9:50

I suppose masculine classical

9:53

looking guy again to turn you know to completely

9:55

change industry Dolce and Gabbana I

9:57

mean that was the campaign

9:59

that really catapulted you

10:02

to this international

10:04

icon that you become. And

10:08

like you said, Dolce and Gabbana were

10:10

looking to fill a box, and the box they

10:12

were looking to fill was the masculine,

10:15

Mediterranean looking, this type

10:18

of stereotype of a guy. And

10:21

you became that man. How

10:23

did that make you feel as a man?

10:25

You sort of have to go back to

10:27

first of all, which like that campaign didn't

10:30

just happen. There was a strategy behind getting

10:32

that campaign, and it was two years before that.

10:34

And I remember I was in an industry

10:37

that was

10:38

dominated by female supermodels. So

10:40

when people say to her, well, who did you look up to?

10:42

Who was your mentor? I didn't have anyone. They

10:45

had my agency, Tandy Anson. She

10:47

was the owner of Select. Again, most of the owners

10:49

were men. She was a woman, she was a black woman. And

10:51

then had the biggest agency in the world, men's agency in the

10:53

world, still one of the biggest agencies. So if you

10:56

needed anyone to back your corner, she

10:58

was the one. So I was surrounded

11:00

by women, or still am, still work with all women

11:02

to this day. And then in the industry, if

11:05

I ever got to work with, and I worked with Chrissie

11:07

Turlant and someone else,

11:08

I actually asked them, what

11:10

do you do differently

11:11

from a point of view? And they explained, and I saw

11:13

them, they came on set, and they were professional,

11:16

and they had a few teams

11:18

around them. And there were teams of PR

11:21

and PAs and- All

11:23

the bells and whistles. Yeah, it was run as a business.

11:25

And I thought, this is what we need to do. So

11:28

one that Dolce ad came out,

11:30

and it was, you

11:31

know- I mean, your

11:34

penis was the size of like 12 floors

11:36

in Times Square, I think. I

11:39

remember that. Yeah, there was, I saw it

11:41

really, I don't ever remember being like shocked

11:44

or worried or thinking

11:46

that, you know, I was gonna be defined as something.

11:49

That was my stepping stone. Was you proud? Yeah,

11:51

because what I always wanted to, when I said to Tandy,

11:53

I was like, look, I just, I don't wanna do the catalogs.

11:56

I don't wanna do the commercial work. I don't

11:58

care if I just do one campaign.

11:59

campaign or one that leaves a legacy that just leaves

12:02

something to work with the best creatives and

12:04

that campaign was it. But that to me was just

12:07

what we had been needing to then raise

12:09

the brand and get on a level playing field

12:11

with the female models. And that's the weird thing is

12:13

when you go into that industry

12:15

and you say, well, why are we working 300

12:18

days and you've got the females who have got

12:21

exclusive contracts and they're on five times the amount

12:23

and they're working five days a year and everyone,

12:25

we can't do that. You won't do that as a

12:27

man. You won't do that in the male modeling industry. So it was

12:29

completely changing people's views. And

12:32

of course you get the, you know, people to find you as

12:34

a model, you're not very clever.

12:36

And you're going to be out in two years. We did a

12:38

sound check before we started and you counted to 10. On

12:40

my fingers. He took 10 minutes.

12:45

But that's the thing. There

12:48

was no insult and

12:50

you know, we're both from Essex. There

12:52

is still the thing of having a sense

12:54

of humor. A lot of people are lost. A lot of people

12:57

take themselves too seriously. I never

12:59

took myself too seriously. Yes I

13:01

knew I where I wanted to get to and yes I knew I was going

13:03

to have to get through a lot of stereotype

13:05

reviews. Like not that masculine. Is it

13:07

to be a male model and sit there

13:09

in your pants on a boat? Yeah. So

13:12

I then understood women

13:14

in some regards go through into other

13:16

industries of trying to because everyone was just going,

13:18

you're never going to get there. Yeah.

13:21

And you had to fight your way to the

13:23

top to get an equal terms or the level playing

13:25

fields of where the female Super Bowls were. How

13:27

did it make you feel as a man

13:30

to go into an industry where you know women

13:32

there earning five times more

13:34

money for a campaign than you are things like that. That

13:36

make you feel less of a man.

13:40

No, because they deserved it. It

13:42

was a very simple answer to that one. If

13:44

I went on set and people will not know

13:46

me to the outside world and then you're

13:49

say you with Kate Moss or Chris in Tillington. They're

13:52

gonna get out

13:55

of business ethics here. They

13:57

are going to sell millions and people are going

13:59

to engage with that.

13:59

brand because they are

14:02

in the campaign, not because I'm in the campaign.

14:05

That was a difference. And I was

14:07

never going to start saying, well,

14:10

it's unequal need quality. I should be

14:12

paid the same as Kate. Absolutely

14:14

not.

14:15

I can work my ass off to try and become

14:18

on level playing field. That's where that's what

14:20

I'll, you know, that's, that was my inspiration.

14:23

And that's why I believe in myself. If I want

14:25

to, yes, I've got to try and make it

14:27

to go in equal terms. And the point to that,

14:30

to that point was at the closing ceremony

14:32

of the Olympics,

14:33

there I was with all the female. I was the only man

14:36

there in the, among all the females, you

14:38

know, supermodels at that time. And I was like,

14:40

at, there was that point. I was like, right, I

14:42

am on now. Hopefully

14:45

equal terms. You're

14:47

listening to Rylan how to be a man from

14:50

BBC radio for

14:53

thanks so much for listening. Hopefully

14:55

that's got you interested in how to be a man. To

14:58

hear the rest of this interview, plus my conversations

15:00

with the likes of Amir Khan, Lawrence Llewelyn

15:02

Bowen and Phil Wang, just

15:04

search how to be a man on BBC

15:07

sounds. Please, I beg

15:10

you in the name of God. I need some assistance

15:12

from you. Who is worthy

15:14

of our trust? I just thought this

15:17

is very, very shady

15:19

and there's something definitely wrong about

15:21

this. He didn't believe me. I said, well, I'm

15:23

not a scammer. I'm not a bad person.

15:26

Join me, Matthew side for the latest

15:28

season of my BBC radio for podcast

15:31

sideways, seven new

15:34

stories

15:34

of seeing the world differently and the

15:36

ideas that shape our lives. I

15:39

need to figure out a way to really compensate him

15:41

and I'm going to be the scammer that I accused

15:44

him of being sideways on

15:46

BBC sounds.