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America, name of FDSE. Have

1:01

you ever wondered if there

1:03

are behaviors, personalities, and ways

1:06

of being that correlate with

1:08

success besides things like IQ

1:10

and hard work? Have

1:13

you noticed that people who do well

1:15

in life seem to all be very

1:17

different people in so many ways that

1:19

it's hard to define specifically why some

1:21

people do so well? Yet

1:23

at the same time, you can kind

1:25

of tell when someone has it, they

1:27

have a vibe of success, and when

1:30

someone doesn't have it. Well, there

1:32

is a lot to dig into here

1:34

from our relationship with fear to how

1:36

open we are to new ideas and

1:39

whether we think of others as individuals

1:41

or as tools. And in case

1:43

you're wondering, it's better to think of them as

1:45

individuals. Well, it's been a

1:47

while since we've had an interview and

1:50

I'm excited about today's show because joining

1:52

me today to explain his decades of

1:54

research into the psychology of leaders and

1:57

success is author Ryan Gottfordsen. He

1:59

has a brilliant, book called Success Mindsets

2:01

that covers the four most important

2:04

and real mindsets based on leading

2:06

psychology that contribute to success in

2:09

life, work and leadership. And

2:11

I do want to point out that

2:13

it's not based on just some ideas

2:15

he thinks are good from coaching people,

2:17

but actually peer-reviewed science and data. Though

2:20

he does, of course, coach people. And

2:22

he has some incredibly interesting stories to back

2:25

it all up, and he also has a

2:27

fantastic energy, I might add, and

2:29

a lot of enthusiasm to go with it. So

2:32

a lot of fun in this conversation, and he

2:34

definitely gave me vibes of someone with success at

2:36

what he does. We discussed

2:38

the human innate bias to assume

2:40

that we have the right mindsets

2:42

in life and how to uncover

2:44

the true reality under our sneaky

2:46

veil of illusions. We

2:48

also uncover why a growth mindset still

2:50

isn't enough to fix the other mindsets

2:53

in our life that are deficient and

2:55

how to build a more solid and

2:57

robust approach to becoming a doer. There's

3:00

a lot of actional takeaways in this

3:03

episode coming up, so stay tuned. Okay,

3:06

just as a word of warning before we get

3:08

into it, if you find yourself

3:10

wondering if Sam sounds weird and a bit

3:12

different in the interview today, well, that's because

3:15

this is a recording from one

3:17

of the older interviews in the archives, and it

3:19

felt like a very relevant thing to be bringing

3:21

back up. But at the time,

3:23

I was not perhaps as good

3:25

at speaking, but luckily, Ryan does most

3:27

of the talking. We dive

3:30

into the episode with me asking Ryan why

3:32

the mindsets that he has researched and that

3:34

we discuss in the episode are so important

3:36

in the topic of behavior change. One

3:40

of the things that I found through all this research

3:42

is that the majority of focus on leadership and largely

3:45

personal improvement is around behaviors.

3:48

How can we improve what we do?

3:51

But what I've realized is I've worked with leaders

3:53

is leadership is not about what you do.

3:56

It's who you are that really makes you effective.

3:59

And so... So as

4:01

I dove into this understanding that

4:03

leadership is about being a certain

4:05

type of person, then

4:07

I started to focus on how do we

4:09

capture that being. And

4:11

over the last seven years, I've really been

4:14

focusing on that element, which has led me

4:16

right into mindsets. Is our

4:18

mindsets are largely the mental

4:20

lenses that fuel almost all

4:22

of our processing on a day-to-day basis. And if

4:25

we can understand that, and if we can improve

4:27

the mindsets of leaders, then we can improve how

4:30

effective they are. Okay, cool.

4:32

And so you decided that

4:34

would link straight into coaching and

4:36

like writing books and things. And that's the best way

4:39

to change people. What I've

4:41

learned is through all the research

4:43

that's been done on mindsets is one

4:45

of the things that's really fascinating is

4:47

rather small interventions can

4:49

dramatically shape and improve people's mindsets.

4:52

So there's dozens of studies that

4:54

are out there that talk about

4:57

a writing two paragraphs or watching a

4:59

three minute video or going through a

5:01

15 minute training can have

5:03

some pretty significant effects on how people

5:05

think, learn, and behave weeks

5:08

and sometimes even months down the road.

5:11

And so what I primarily do in terms

5:13

of the consulting and coaching that I do

5:15

is I help leaders awaken to

5:18

the mindsets that they have. So

5:21

I help them identify what are their current mindsets

5:23

and what mindsets do they need to have in

5:25

order to become better leaders. And

5:27

so through this awakening process

5:29

that covers about half the ground that

5:31

we need to is we need to

5:33

just awaken first of all. And then

5:35

once we awaken, then we can engage

5:37

in activities that improve the specific mindsets

5:40

that they need to work on. Okay,

5:42

cool. Because it's really changing the psychology of

5:44

how people approach everything that comes in them

5:46

and like how they feel. I guess what

5:49

I'd like to know is how do you

5:51

then coach people to like really

5:53

change what they're thinking. I want to answer

5:55

the small things that you can do, but do you care if

5:57

I just give a little bit of context? Yes, please. That

6:00

should have been the first question, say. No,

6:02

you're good. No, but I think it's important

6:04

to get there, but it's important to know

6:07

why we get there. So what

6:09

research has found is that largely 90%

6:13

of our thinking, acting, feeling,

6:15

and judging is done essentially

6:17

on autopilot. It's

6:20

done through our non-conscious

6:22

automatic processes. And

6:24

we all know that autopilot only seems

6:26

to work if the instruments

6:29

work appropriately. And here's

6:31

the interesting thing. So I've got a mindset assessment, which

6:33

I'll talk about here in a little bit, but

6:36

I've had thousands of people take my

6:38

mindset assessment. And what I've found is

6:40

that 95% of people do not

6:43

have the optimal instruments to drive

6:45

their autopilot, which suggests

6:47

that most of us are,

6:50

while we're operating with our

6:52

non-conscious automatic processes, that

6:55

it's actually not as effective

6:57

as it should be. But if we

7:00

could become aware of what our non-conscious

7:02

automatic processes are and then improve them,

7:05

then we could, one, become

7:07

more conscious, or two, we

7:09

can improve our autopilot tendencies.

7:12

And so I think that there's a lot of power in

7:14

that. And here's the problem

7:17

in my mind is, and

7:19

I'll be interested in your opinion on this,

7:22

but when I go around and speak,

7:24

it seems to me that most

7:26

people have mindset, the word mindset

7:29

in their vocabulary. But

7:31

then if you were to ask them what

7:33

mindsets do you need to be, or what

7:35

mindsets do you need to have to be effective? Do

7:38

you feel like you would get any specific

7:41

answers? Yeah, because if

7:43

I run the Great Mindset podcast,

7:45

I'm pretty sure everyone would just say Great

7:47

Mindset. They've just heard it five minutes ago,

7:49

and I think if they're talking to me,

7:52

yeah, a little bit in a bad position

7:54

to really have a good scientific

7:58

data coming at me. If I

8:00

didn't mention that at all, then yeah, I don't know what

8:02

people would say. They might just

8:04

try and say a good mindset or

8:06

a positive mindset. Yeah. Yeah. That kind

8:08

of thing. Then specific

8:10

qualities about it. Yeah. Some can

8:12

do attitude and like motivating

8:15

and that kind of thing. And yeah,

8:17

that's, those are two qualities you do need, but there's

8:19

a lot of other things that you also need to

8:21

cultivate. Unfortunately, I think those are

8:23

good answers, but they're a little vague. And

8:26

so here's to me, the huge crux

8:28

of the problem. Is

8:30

that here, what I'm suggesting is

8:33

that our mindsets, which

8:35

control our non-conscious automatic processes,

8:38

essentially control everything that we do, including

8:41

our effectiveness and success, yet

8:44

we don't have a language to talk

8:46

about, we don't know what mindset Steven

8:48

focus on in your case, where you

8:50

focus on growth mindset a lot, maybe

8:53

we know growth mindset, but what else

8:55

beyond growth mindset? And so

8:57

that's where I was at a few years ago. I

8:59

found out all this research by Carol Dweck and

9:02

others on growth and fixed mindsets, and

9:04

I thought what other mindsets are out there that I

9:06

need to be aware of. And

9:08

so as I started to dive into the literature, I

9:11

found that there's pockets of mindset

9:13

research being done, some in psychology,

9:15

some in marketing, some in education,

9:17

some in management, and they're

9:20

all finding the same things, which is that

9:22

our mindsets shape our thinking,

9:24

learning, and behavior. But they

9:26

were largely not talking to each other. And

9:29

so what I've now done is

9:31

I've pulled together these different pockets

9:34

of mindsets into one framework that

9:36

allows people to truly awaken

9:38

to their mindset because what I'm doing is I'm giving

9:40

them a language and a

9:43

vocabulary that allows them to objectify

9:45

their mindsets. So what

9:47

I've come up with is there's four different

9:49

sets of mindsets. There's others that are out

9:51

there, but there's four sets of mindsets that

9:53

have been rigorously studied over the last 30

9:55

years, and all four

9:57

of these sets of mindsets range on a continuum

10:00

from negative to positive. And

10:03

so if people can

10:05

identify where they fall along this

10:07

continuum, that helps identify, okay,

10:09

where am I at now? How

10:11

is that affecting me? And also, where do

10:13

I need to go in order to improve

10:15

my processing? And so that's

10:17

where my mindset assessment kicks in is that people

10:19

can take and I share a link or whatever

10:22

in your show notes, that people

10:24

could take this mindset assessment for free, and

10:27

then they can identify what mindsets they

10:29

have along each of these continuum. So

10:32

at some point in time, whether it's now or

10:34

later, we could walk through briefly what each four

10:36

of these sets of mindsets are. That was gonna

10:38

be my next question. If you've introduced

10:40

it now, I want to hear about it. Yeah,

10:42

so the basic idea is we could

10:45

structure interventions along each of these sets

10:47

of mindsets. And we could dive into

10:49

that. But I think the first step

10:51

in the process is this awakening, awakening

10:54

to the current mindsets that we have.

10:57

So the four sets of mindsets

10:59

start, I usually start with fixed and

11:01

growth, partly because that's quite familiar. It's

11:04

also the most heavily researched of the

11:06

four sets of mindsets. And

11:08

the difference between fixed and growth is when we

11:10

have a fixed mindset, we see ourselves and others

11:13

as being unable to change our

11:15

natural talents and abilities. But

11:18

when we have a growth mindset,

11:20

we see ourselves and others as

11:22

being able to change our natural

11:24

talents, intelligence and abilities. And then

11:26

that just based upon this lens

11:29

that we're wearing, that shapes how

11:31

we interact with the world. So

11:34

for example, if we come up

11:36

on a challenge, and we

11:38

have a fixed mindset, which means that

11:40

we don't believe that we can change,

11:42

then we're gonna see that challenge is

11:44

something that we might fail at. And

11:46

we might be rather scared of that

11:48

challenge. Because if we don't believe that

11:51

we can change and we fail, then

11:53

we're left to interpret that as though we are

11:55

a failure. So those

11:57

with a fixed mindset have

11:59

a tendency see to see challenge and failure as

12:01

things to avoid, but those with a

12:04

growth mindset see challenge and failure as

12:06

opportunities to learn and grow. And based

12:08

upon just the natural lenses that

12:10

we're wearing shapes how

12:12

we see the situation, which then

12:14

correspondingly shapes how we think about it, how

12:17

we learn, and how we behave.

12:20

And so we can, this is our mindsets are these things

12:22

that cause people to see

12:24

the same exact thing, but interpret

12:27

them potentially completely differently, and that

12:29

shapes how effectively they operate. So

12:31

that's an example of the fixed and grow. Next

12:34

one is closed and open mindsets.

12:37

So when we have a closed

12:39

mindset, we are close to

12:41

the ideas and suggestions of others. When

12:43

we have an open mindset, we're open to the

12:46

ideas and suggestions of others, and we're willing to

12:48

take them seriously. I think one

12:50

of the good ways to describe that is by

12:52

the story that we tell

12:54

ourselves about our mind. So

12:57

we could come into any situation if we consider

12:59

our mind to be a bucket, how

13:01

full do we consider our bucket to be

13:04

on that particular topic that is being discussed?

13:06

If we feel like our bucket is already full,

13:09

like I already know everything, then

13:11

what happens if drops get put in the bucket?

13:13

They just fall off the side. But

13:15

if we go into the situation and we may have

13:17

a lot in our bucket, but if we're

13:20

able to see that our bucket, the

13:22

bucket is really big, even though we have a

13:24

lot in there, but it's really big, that

13:26

leaves room for taking in information.

13:29

So one of the big differences between those with

13:32

the closed mindset and those with an open mindset

13:34

is those with the closed mindset, they

13:36

primarily are focused on being seen

13:38

as being right. Thus,

13:40

they're seeking after information that supports their

13:42

point of view. But those

13:44

that have an open mindset, they're not focused

13:47

on being seen as being, they're focused on

13:49

finding truth and thinking optimally. Thus,

13:51

they want to ask questions and

13:53

even disconfirming questions. And so

13:56

again, people can see the same thing

13:58

such as somebody disagreeing

14:00

with you and somebody with

14:02

a close mindset would see that as a

14:05

threat and get defensive, whereas somebody else would

14:07

see that as, again, as an opportunity to

14:09

learn and grow and coming closer to

14:11

a better understanding of what truth is.

14:14

Yeah, so if you can really try and... Because

14:17

everyone has a bit of a natural reaction to one to

14:19

be right whenever they say something. But if you can harness

14:21

that reaction when it's like a slight annoyance, if you'd said

14:23

change that to make it feel like it's excitement when someone's

14:25

telling you you're doing something wrong, you're like, oh, cool, I

14:27

could learn something new and then it gets

14:29

really bad. But what

14:31

I just thought about as you were saying that is

14:33

close versus opens and you're more likely

14:36

to respond to people's inputs. So is

14:38

there any studies relating to introverts versus

14:40

extroverts on this? Because extroverts, when I

14:42

talk about stuff, whereas introverts

14:44

are more self-contained and happy with

14:47

their own things, it just

14:50

made me think perhaps there's a link as well, has there

14:52

been any studies on that? That

14:54

directly and that I'm aware of.

14:57

And so in the academic literature, I've

14:59

called it closed and open. In the

15:01

academic literature, they call it implementable and

15:03

deliberative mindsets. I call it closed and

15:05

open because that's much more accessible than

15:08

implementable and deliberative mindsets. Yeah.

15:11

And so in terms of these implementable and deliberative mindsets,

15:14

I haven't seen any studies that

15:17

look at personality and personalities role

15:19

on these mindsets. I

15:21

have a tendency to think about mindsets as

15:23

being different than personality in the sense

15:26

that personality is a much more

15:28

stable trait within us. We're not

15:30

very likely to go from

15:32

being an introvert to being an extrovert throughout

15:34

the course of our lives. Whereas

15:37

our mindsets are a relatively stable trait

15:39

where we are able to change our

15:41

mindsets, but then once we change them,

15:43

they're a little bit longer lasting than

15:45

let's just say our attitudes

15:48

or our moods, because those could change

15:50

fairly rapidly. Our mindsets are generally something

15:52

we carry with us for quite a

15:55

while. But again, they are something

15:57

that we can change. So I think, but

15:59

my. hunches based upon

16:01

other research on related topics

16:04

is it seems like you're probably on to

16:06

something that extroverts probably

16:09

have more of a tendency

16:11

to being close-minded than introverts.

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17:46

The great mindset is you can get better anything

17:48

in some ways. So if you do have a

17:50

close mindset, you should recognize that. If you have

17:52

a growth mindset to then force yourself to then

17:54

get an open mindset, that kind of thing. You

17:56

bring up a really good point that I found

17:58

was really interesting. So. So I

18:00

assumed when I first created

18:02

my personal mindset assessment that people could take,

18:05

I assumed that there would be a correlation

18:07

across all of the positive mindsets in the

18:09

sense of if you're high on one, you're

18:12

going to be high on all the others.

18:14

And that just isn't the case. And

18:17

I think that's the value of considering more

18:19

mindsets than just fixed and growing. As powerful

18:21

as they are and as important as they

18:23

are, what I'm finding is people

18:26

could be very growth-minded, but also be very

18:28

close-minded. Yeah, you could think that

18:30

you're, oh, good, I'm really good at things. And I'm

18:32

also really good at getting better at things because I

18:34

have a growth mindset. But I'm not

18:36

going to listen to anyone's opinion because I'm so good

18:38

at getting good at things by myself and

18:40

that's just a great mindset. So

18:43

by becoming aware of more than just

18:45

our fixed and growth mindsets, then that

18:47

allows us to, if we

18:49

have a growth mindset and a close mindset,

18:51

we're not aware of the close mindset component.

18:53

We're ultimately putting a cap on our success.

18:56

Yes, I guess on the Martin Seligman, I've

18:58

done a whole podcast on Martin Seligman and

19:00

his theories and now I can't even think

19:02

of the word that I'm trying to... Yeah,

19:04

learned optimism and learned pessimism. When you've

19:07

got yourself into, you don't know

19:09

what you don't know kind of thing and you have yourself

19:11

in these ruts. And when you are just thinking you're like

19:13

full on growth mindset, but you're just in

19:15

the rut of being close mindset to other things, you just wouldn't

19:18

even conceive of that as a problem. Yeah,

19:20

let me share a quote with you that

19:22

I love. And this comes from Shane Parrish

19:24

with Farnham Street. I don't know if you're

19:26

not familiar with his blog and podcast, but

19:29

he asked the question, are you open or

19:32

closed? Then he says, before you

19:34

smugly slap an open minded sticker on

19:36

your forehead, consider this, close

19:39

minded people would never consider that

19:41

they could actually be closed minded.

19:43

In fact, their perceived open mindedness is

19:46

what's so dangerous. Yeah. And

19:48

I don't know about you, but I really relate to this.

19:50

I think, man, 10 years ago, if you would have asked

19:52

me if I had an open or closed mindset, I would

19:54

have been completely open. I don't

19:56

see how I could have even more of an

19:58

open mindset. The one I have. But

20:00

I look back 10 years ago and I think, oh

20:03

my goodness, I was so close minded. I was so

20:05

rich in my thinking. I thought I knew it all.

20:07

And so I think that this aspect of

20:10

close and open is relatively difficult for us

20:12

to evaluate within ourselves, which is why I

20:14

think like a personal assessment can be really

20:16

valuable. Yeah, it's funny. I had a

20:18

business partner who gave me the Ray Daddio book,

20:21

12 principles. It's

20:23

a special interest. And he thought he

20:25

embodied all these principles. And

20:27

he had the most closed mindset thing ever. And

20:29

he just, he was like really smart, but

20:32

he had a ceiling on how smart he could be. Because

20:34

he just wouldn't listen to anyone. And

20:36

yeah, he thought he was full on

20:39

100% on every good quality he

20:41

possibly have, but he was so blind to how

20:43

crappy was it so many things. Interesting.

20:46

And I would say, let me give you

20:48

another plug for that Ray Daddio book principles

20:50

is I think that is the best book

20:52

out there on this idea of closed and

20:55

open mindsets. It just makes sense when he

20:57

says it and it seems, oh, this is

20:59

so common sense to have an open mindset.

21:01

But the problem is that, as I mentioned

21:04

earlier, each of the negative

21:06

mindsets are tied into fear. And

21:09

if we don't awaken to the fear that's

21:11

driving, if we have a closed mindset, our

21:13

closed mindset, then we're going to have some

21:15

problems. So some of the fears that are

21:17

associated with the closed mindset is

21:19

that we fear looking

21:21

bad in front of others. We

21:24

fear change. We fear uncertainty.

21:26

We fear not being in control.

21:29

So if those are things that

21:31

we fear, then our

21:33

natural response is to develop this

21:35

closed mindset to protect us from

21:38

experiencing the feelings that are associated with

21:40

those types of things. And

21:42

that's the great thing about Ray Daddio is he's

21:44

essentially broke down there. You shouldn't

21:47

be afraid of not

21:49

being in charge because that makes you

21:51

empowered. You shouldn't be afraid

21:53

of uncertainty because nothing is

21:55

certain in the future. You get to create

21:58

your future. And so. So that's,

22:01

I think one of the cool things

22:03

about this is that when we

22:05

start talking to people about their mindsets at

22:07

this level that we're talking about, it

22:10

becomes maybe the deepest

22:12

dive that they've ever done within

22:14

themselves in terms of introspection.

22:17

And tell people become aware of these labels.

22:20

They haven't had the tools to be able

22:22

to dive in as deeply as what they

22:25

can in terms of their introspection. So this,

22:27

when I go out and speak and I present this

22:29

to groups, usually when we

22:32

start talking through these different mindsets,

22:34

the group really clams up because

22:36

they're going inward at a level that they've

22:38

never done before. And it's really

22:40

a cool experience as a presenter to see

22:43

this because you see them dive in, they

22:45

clam up and then you bring them out

22:47

and then you say, okay, now what do

22:49

we do with this great information? And

22:52

then that's when the magic happens. Yeah,

22:54

I was thinking as you were talking, isn't what

22:57

I found really helpful is just realize

22:59

that it's not so much you personally

23:01

sometimes being wrong. Is it actually humans

23:03

are just wrong and that it's just

23:06

a human tendency to be completely bonkers

23:08

the way you appreciate things. And then

23:11

when you realize that it's not so bad to

23:13

look at yourself and be like, oh, cool.

23:15

I'm completely wrong about so many things. Yeah.

23:17

About when Darwin came up with evolution, everyone

23:19

was looking at him like it's completely bonkers

23:21

and no one to believe it or Einstein

23:23

with theory relativity. All of the top scientists

23:25

were like, you're a freaking idiot. And

23:28

they think and that's the example of a close mindset

23:31

and that's all the top people in the community and

23:33

that's just humans because of they want to be right.

23:36

And if all the best humans on the planet at

23:38

a given point in time would do that, there's probably

23:40

the same thing going on right now in your boardroom

23:42

or wherever it's not

23:45

like something you need to take personally

23:47

is, oh, it's just me being wrong.

23:49

It's the human tendency to not really think about

23:51

things logically. And then you can feel

23:53

much nicer about going on and

23:56

battling with this hard feelings that you're coming up against.

23:59

For sure. these negative mindsets are

24:01

ultimately fueled by this desire

24:03

to self-protect. The

24:05

positive mindsets are fueled by a

24:08

desire to organization advance. There's

24:10

a very big difference between operating

24:13

in self-protection mode versus organization

24:15

advance mode. And so

24:17

just, yeah, if we could be okay

24:20

and comfortable knowing that nobody's perfect, but

24:22

opens the door for us to actually

24:24

learn, grow and improve. Yeah. As

24:28

a child, is it not something you get by

24:30

default in your personality of your approach to like

24:32

risk and challenges? If you are more

24:34

likely to enjoy having risk

24:37

and being wrong about things

24:39

and being outside of your comfort zone, then

24:41

you want to have an open mindset. So

24:44

what you're doing is you're providing a great

24:46

segue to our next set of mindsets. That's

24:48

perfect. So our third of

24:50

mindsets is the difference between prevention

24:52

and promotion mindsets. So when

24:54

we have a prevention mindset, our

24:56

primary goal is to not lose.

24:59

But when we have a promotion mindset,

25:01

our primary goal is winning in gains.

25:04

And so when, to help

25:06

explain these, I'm going to use the analogy that

25:08

we're a ship captain. So for a

25:10

ship captain and we're out at sea and we have

25:13

a prevention mindset, and I know that you were just

25:15

in the North sea, so maybe you relate to this

25:17

a little bit, but when we have a

25:19

prevention mindset and we're in the middle of the sea, then

25:22

our primary goal is on not

25:24

sinking. So we don't

25:26

care what happens. We don't care where we

25:29

end up. We just don't want to

25:31

sink. And so thus we're really attuned to avoiding

25:33

problems. We don't want to take any risks.

25:35

We want to maintain the status quo. In other

25:37

words, we don't want to rock the boat. Thus

25:40

we're ultimately focused on what is urgent, which

25:43

is not stinky and not necessarily what is

25:45

important, which is actually getting to land. And

25:48

so that's somebody with a prevention

25:50

mindset, somebody with a promotion mindset is

25:54

not that they're unconcerned about sinking,

25:57

but their primary focus is on getting to

25:59

a specific destination. Thus,

26:01

they're willing to anticipate problems, they're willing

26:03

to take risks because they

26:05

know that without risk comes no

26:07

reward. Thus, they're focused on

26:09

what is important and not necessarily

26:11

what is urgent. And

26:13

the big difference between these two mindsets are

26:16

those with the prevention mindset, they

26:18

get blown about by the wind and the currents

26:20

of the sea and they end up in a

26:22

destination that they didn't choose.

26:26

Those that have a promotion mindset, they're

26:28

willing to brave the winds and

26:31

the storms of the sea in order

26:33

to get to a destination of their own

26:35

proactive design. So let me

26:37

give you, are you a soccer fan? I

26:40

like playing it. Yeah, it's

26:42

all right. So let me

26:44

just give you, this is a really interesting

26:46

study on these two mindsets. So

26:49

at the end of a soccer game, if it's tied,

26:51

then it goes to an extra 30 minutes. And

26:54

if it's tied after those 30 minutes, then we enter

26:56

a shootout, right? I'm not the biggest

26:58

soccer fan, so you can fill in any gaps for me.

27:00

But they looked at these

27:02

penalty shootouts and they found situations

27:04

where if the kicker were

27:07

to miss, their team would lose

27:09

the game. So these

27:11

are situations where they're by necessity

27:13

in a prevention mindset. But

27:15

then they also compare that to situations where

27:18

if the kicker made the penalty

27:20

shot, that they would win the

27:22

game. So by necessity, putting

27:24

them in a promotion mindset. And

27:27

here's what's fascinating about it is that those

27:29

that were in this prevention mindset, so if

27:31

they missed, they would lose the game. They

27:34

avoided facing the goalie. They

27:36

took less time to prepare and they

27:39

converted on 62% of their shots. But

27:43

the people that had a promotion mindset where

27:45

if they would make, they would win the

27:47

game, they spent much more time facing the

27:49

goalie. They took more time to

27:51

prepare and they converted on 92% of their

27:53

shots. So

27:56

a 30% difference in the conversion rate, just

27:59

on our. So research

28:01

on these two mindsets over and

28:04

over again has compellingly found that

28:06

you are going to be much

28:08

more successful, engaged, satisfied in life

28:10

if you have a promotion mindset. The

28:13

meta-analyses that have been done have found

28:15

that there's only one primary benefit to

28:17

having a prevention mindset. And it's

28:19

not an unimportant benefit, but it's only one,

28:21

and that is you have lower

28:23

safety incident rates. And

28:26

one of the big questions, in fact, I

28:28

was working, did a training with an organization

28:30

this last week, and they

28:32

had their top 30 leaders in the

28:34

organization take my mindset assessment. And

28:36

then I looked at their mindsets collectively as

28:39

a group. And what we

28:41

found is that the mindset set where

28:43

they were the worst collectively as a

28:45

group was on this prevention

28:47

versus promotion mindset. So they were

28:49

largely prevention mindsets. And

28:52

they're a customer-facing company. So

28:54

they're dealing with customers all the time. And

28:56

essentially, their focus is what we're

28:58

finding is just to not have

29:00

any problems with their customers.

29:03

But that's a very different approach than

29:06

trying to please their customers. Yeah. So

29:09

because they're just, we want to avoid problems

29:12

at all costs, that doesn't necessarily

29:14

mean that they're doing anything to

29:16

please or enhance the trust that

29:18

their customers have with them. It

29:20

just means that they just don't want any problems to

29:22

occur. And they're putting out

29:24

fires all over the place because they're

29:27

not doing the work in advance to

29:29

build the relationship with the customer such

29:31

that when something bad happens, then

29:33

the customers will need to forgive them. And

29:36

so operating in this prevention

29:38

mind and mode is one of the

29:40

things that we've revealed is really limiting

29:43

them as a company. It's disengaging

29:45

their employees and it's disengaging to their

29:47

customers. Yeah, I

29:49

think that's a whole very corporate problem

29:51

as well, isn't it? When you get big,

29:54

you have to say that you have to

29:56

go more into prevention style

29:58

mindset of doing everything. everything by

30:00

the books properly and you can't be at the tech,

30:02

move fast and break things, which is

30:04

maybe why they tech companies are getting all

30:06

the innovation and doing cool stuff these days. Yeah.

30:10

And I think that's where we talked

30:12

about Ray Dalio's book Principles. That was

30:14

so great with the open and closed

30:16

mindsets. Another great book

30:18

on many of these mindsets is a book

30:21

called Creativity Inc. by Ed Catmull, who is

30:23

the president, I think he's just now retiring.

30:25

He's been the president of Pixar Animation and

30:28

then when Disney bought out Pixar, he became

30:30

the president of Disney Animation as well. And

30:33

in his book, he essentially says, if

30:36

you aren't taking risk and

30:38

if you aren't even, in some instances,

30:40

trying to fail, then you're

30:42

not going to be creative or innovative. And

30:45

so the whole book is how do

30:47

we create this culture in which creativity

30:49

and innovation can thrive? And it's got

30:52

to be one where you're consistently seeking

30:54

after winning and gains as a part

30:56

of the game, as opposed to not losing. In

30:58

fact, he goes so far to

31:00

say that when Disney had bought out

31:02

Pixar, Disney had been

31:05

primarily operating in this

31:07

prevention mode and that it was his

31:09

job to change it to become more

31:11

promotion-like. And so it's a really

31:13

interesting case study to see the

31:15

transition or the changes that he made

31:17

within Disney Animation. And right after Disney

31:20

Animation got took over by Pixar, then

31:22

you start to see these string of

31:24

hits like Tangled and

31:26

Frozen. And because they

31:29

have changed the culture to bring out much

31:31

more innovative and creative movies than what they

31:34

had in the prior 15 years. Yeah,

31:37

I guess they had been so

31:39

successful, you can't try and do

31:41

something new and different. But when the world's

31:43

changing, if you keep on doing what was successful 10

31:45

years ago, it's suddenly a problem. Cool.

31:48

So should we move on to the final mindset then? Let's

31:51

do it. The last one is the

31:53

difference between an inward mindset and an

31:55

outward mindset. So when we have an

31:57

inward mindset, we see others as objects.

32:00

and we value them as such. We

32:02

see them as being less important than

32:04

ourselves, and we see their feelings being

32:06

less important than our feelings. But

32:08

when we have an outward mindset, we

32:11

see others as people, and we value them

32:13

as such. And so to me,

32:16

the outward mindset is very much

32:18

the servant leadership mentality, is the

32:21

people that I am leading, they're as important,

32:23

if not even more important than who I

32:25

am. Whereas the inward

32:27

mindset is, in my

32:29

visual mind, I have Captain Hook, who,

32:33

he's the leader, and he's got Smee

32:35

behind him, kind of rowing his boat.

32:37

Smee is my object that gets my

32:39

rowboat back to my main ship. I'm

32:42

not the, as Captain Hook, I'm not the

32:44

one, I shouldn't be paddling, because I'm too

32:47

important to paddle. So I've got some

32:49

objects to do that for me. And

32:51

so that's the difference between inward and

32:53

outward mindsets, how we view people. Yeah,

32:56

it sounds like quite

32:58

a funny one to conceive. Are

33:00

there some good studies around that? So

33:03

I would say the best material for

33:05

the inward and outward mindsets comes from

33:07

a small little niche consulting group called

33:09

the Arbinger Institute. And so they published

33:12

several books on the topic.

33:14

One is called Leadership and Self-Deception. Another

33:17

one is Anatomy of Peace. A

33:19

third one is called The Outward Mindsets.

33:22

And it dives into these

33:25

two mindsets and how it shapes, really

33:28

how people operate with each

33:30

other. And you can think about family

33:32

members as well as strangers. So

33:35

one example, or some of the questions that

33:37

we can ask ourselves to see

33:39

whether or not we have an inward or

33:41

an outward mindset in any given moment is just

33:44

recall maybe some instances where

33:46

you let somebody into, where you failed

33:49

to let somebody into your lane, even

33:51

though they had their blinker on. Or

33:54

what about the time when you failed to do something

33:56

kind for a family member when it would have been

33:58

easy for you to do, such as do a- the

34:00

dishes. Or what about the

34:02

time when you gave a manager or

34:04

a subordinate a fabricated excuse? I

34:06

just read a statistic last week. 82% of

34:09

employees can't trust their manager to tell

34:11

the truth. Like

34:14

it's unreal. And it's because ultimately

34:16

the employees that feel that way, they

34:19

feel like they're treated more like a

34:21

cog at work than a person.

34:24

And when we're treated like cogs, it's because the

34:26

people who are treating us that way, we feel

34:28

like they have an inward mindset as opposed to

34:30

an outward mindset. Let me give

34:32

you another example that I think is a great example of

34:34

this. There's a guy by the name of Benjamin Zander, who's

34:37

the founder and conductor of the Boston

34:40

Philharmonic Orchestra. And he's got a great

34:42

TED Talk. He's also got a fantastic

34:44

book called The Art of Possibility. But

34:48

in both his TED Talk as well as his book,

34:50

he talks about how for the

34:53

first half of his career, he

34:55

saw his musicians, not

34:57

his people, but his instruments. He

35:00

saw his job as the conductor was to get them

35:02

to play the music the way that he thought it

35:04

should be played. And he was

35:06

having this inward mindset because he saw them

35:08

as instruments. But then he

35:11

had an epiphany and he says, while

35:13

he may be the face of the CD, he

35:16

doesn't play a note. And

35:18

that led him to change his mindset

35:20

from being inward to being outward. So

35:23

rather than seeing his musicians as instruments, he

35:25

saw them as people. And

35:27

in doing so, he stopped trying

35:29

to get them to play the music the way

35:31

that he thought it should be played. He started

35:33

to get them to play the music in the

35:36

way that they were most capable of performing. So

35:38

in other words, he was now trying to bring

35:40

out their very best. And that's

35:43

just a completely different approach to

35:45

working with people. And we're going to get so much

35:47

more out of them if we're seeing

35:49

them as people and as valuable partners,

35:51

as opposed to having an inward mindset

35:54

where they're just an object there

35:56

to do our bidding. And so I think

35:58

that this is a really powerful and... In fact, when

36:01

I go into organizations and I study in

36:04

all four of these sets of mindsets,

36:06

the one set that the followers are

36:09

most sensitive to is this difference between

36:11

an inward or an outward mindset, the

36:13

degree to which they feel like they're

36:15

treated as a cog versus a person.

36:18

Wow. Cool. Yeah. That's kind of the thing that

36:20

comes up a lot in like management

36:22

books, but it is quite hard when you are,

36:24

when you're an employee and you train to do

36:27

the hard thing, learn how to do it and then employ

36:30

someone that can do this thing for you that you've

36:32

automated and come up with new things as a boss.

36:35

Yeah. It's interesting. Rather

36:37

than empowering them to work out

36:39

how to do the things they want to do,

36:42

work out how to do things. Really?

36:44

When you have this inward mindset, again,

36:46

these negative mindsets are attached to fears

36:48

that we have. So the fears that

36:50

are attached to this inward mindset is

36:52

we have a fear of losing out

36:55

to somebody else or not losing out

36:57

on opportunities. It's not being

36:59

promoted, for example. And

37:02

so we try to, again, we self

37:04

protect as opposed to organization advance. And

37:07

so this, we

37:09

want to feel valued. And if

37:11

we have insecurities about that, then

37:13

we're likely to gain value by putting

37:16

others down. And that's when we're

37:18

in that space, we have that inward mindset. Yeah.

37:21

I was thought it might be, say you're

37:23

someone's manager and you see them as a

37:25

working like incapable of doing

37:28

better work. And so you don't

37:30

empower them because you just don't think they'd be

37:32

able to do the harder, more like difficult

37:35

things. But it's also, like I

37:37

see just explained relevant, well,

37:39

related to the fact that you

37:41

almost don't want them to do good work. So it could threaten

37:43

you. Let

37:45

me give you another, I would say really

37:49

powerful example. In fact, this example is

37:51

one that I feel has changed my

37:53

life. And this basic

37:55

idea comes from Brené Brown's book,

37:58

Rising Strong. But you. think

38:00

about how do you see and maybe for

38:02

anybody who may listen to this, how

38:05

do you see a homeless person when you

38:07

pull up, you're driving along,

38:09

you come up to a street corner and there's a

38:11

homeless person standing there. How do you

38:13

see that person? Again, our mindsets

38:17

shape how we see the different

38:19

situations and we could see them in some more

38:21

negative ways and some more positive ways. And I'm

38:23

ashamed to admit this, but for much

38:25

of my life when I pull up on a street corner,

38:27

I see a homeless person, my immediate

38:30

thought, my mindsets were tuned into

38:32

thinking, what are they doing?

38:34

Why are they just wasting their time standing

38:36

here when they could walk around and go

38:39

try to find a job? And

38:41

so that's where when my mind is

38:43

cued into that, I'm rather critical of

38:45

that person standing there. I'm rather

38:48

judgmental too. But what

38:50

if we were to see that person standing there

38:53

on the corner as though they

38:55

were doing their very best, that

38:57

we're truly seeing them as a person, then

39:00

if they're doing their very best, that leads me to

39:02

ask the question, what on earth

39:04

has happened that has led them to believe that this

39:06

is the best way to live? Now

39:09

I become much more empathetic and sympathetic

39:11

to their situation and I'm much more

39:13

willing to help them. Again, our mindsets

39:16

shape our thinking, our learning and our

39:18

behavior. And so one

39:20

of the aspects of having this outward mindset

39:23

is we see other people as doing their

39:25

best. So in organizations,

39:27

it's common for people to maybe

39:30

be underperforming. What approach

39:32

does a manager take to that? Do they

39:34

take the approach of they're a

39:36

terrible employee because they're underperforming? Or

39:39

do they take the approach that

39:41

they're trying their best? So

39:43

what is it about their

39:46

environment that isn't

39:48

allowing them to succeed at their

39:50

job? Is it something about me

39:52

as a manager? Is it something

39:54

about maybe they don't have adequate

39:56

resources to function appropriately? Maybe they

39:58

have team members? that have demands

40:00

upon their time, that's not allowing them to

40:03

get to their core work functions. As a

40:05

manager, if we see our employees is doing

40:07

the best that we can, we're

40:09

going to manage and leave them much better than

40:11

if we see them as though they're not doing

40:13

the best that they can. You're going to have

40:16

a much more then growth mindset attitude to, okay,

40:18

how can I improve my skills as a manager

40:20

and empower these people to do the right things?

40:23

Exactly. Yeah, a good example I

40:25

read was like, if you're sitting in the

40:27

cinema and then like 10 minutes into the movie,

40:29

some guy comes and like walks over you and

40:31

you're like, what the hell? Who is this idiot?

40:33

Why are they so rude? Why can't they just

40:35

get to the cinema on time? Jesus Christ, they've

40:37

ruined my movie experience. What an asshole. Yeah.

40:41

Next week, you go to the cinema, but like you

40:43

got to have a call is really important and you've

40:45

got to take it. Then like the taxi gets stuck

40:48

in traffic and you get to the cinema 10

40:50

minutes late. You're like, oh God, I'm such a nice person.

40:52

I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to walk over you. Sorry,

40:54

nice person. I'm not

40:57

bad. Like obviously all these things happened in my

40:59

life and like it was just a bad scenario.

41:01

But like the other person, you can't think of the bad things that

41:04

happened to them. You think, oh, it's just an asshole. Yeah,

41:06

that's beautiful. Beautiful example. So

41:09

you can just definitely just have

41:11

the assumption that whatever someone's doing, feeling bad,

41:13

there's probably a good reason for it instead

41:15

of there's always a bad

41:17

reason for it. Yeah. Is the

41:19

lesson. Okay, cool. So

41:21

that's the general concepts of

41:23

all these mindsets. So what I

41:25

think they're all a bit isolated in

41:27

these different mindsets and you've got a bit more

41:29

of a unifying theory about them, which I really

41:32

like and buy into. What is

41:34

because of all of these mindsets, they have like scientific

41:36

studies on each individual mindset. What are those kind of

41:39

are there any meta studies where people

41:41

have done scientific analysis

41:43

of something as a

41:46

whole group? Or is it more just

41:48

tying things together and it's actually theories

41:50

at this point, which all sound. There

41:53

has been very little work to

41:55

connect these where I have seen

41:57

at least comments on.

41:59

on multiple of these mindsets

42:01

in the same article is

42:04

when we get into neuropsychology.

42:07

And when neuropsychologists start to look at

42:10

brain functioning and why it is we

42:12

do what we do, and

42:14

there's different theories that are out there to explain why

42:16

it is we do what we do, in

42:18

some of those papers, they'll reference

42:20

how these mindsets, they don't

42:23

always call them mindsets, but essentially

42:25

that's the case. And they'll say,

42:27

oh, well, Carol Dweck

42:29

found this about fixed and growth

42:31

mindsets. And Goldwitzer found this about

42:33

the deliberative and implementable mindsets. And

42:36

the regulatory focus theory, which

42:38

is this prevention versus promotion.

42:41

So they'll make brief reference

42:44

to these different citations, which

42:46

all suggest the same thing, which is

42:49

much of our operating is controlled by

42:51

our non-conscious processing. And here's some areas

42:54

of study that have demonstrated that. So

42:57

that's really the only place that I've seen these

42:59

come together. But I think it speaks

43:02

to the power of mindsets

43:05

in the sense of when they are

43:07

being cited together, it's all about the

43:09

power that they have to shape whatever

43:12

it is that we do. And

43:14

so that when researchers, cognitive psychologists

43:17

are researching, why do we operate

43:19

the way that we do? They

43:21

continually come back to these mindsets.

43:23

Cool. So at this point, I wanted

43:26

to get into the more questions that I've had to put this

43:28

into practice. What do you do to coach

43:30

people when you're actually doing a

43:32

coaching session on mindsets? What are the questions that you ask them

43:34

that get them to all close up and go all quit and

43:36

things? Yeah, I think part of

43:38

the key is to, one

43:41

of the aspects is to try to get at their

43:44

fears. And you don't just

43:46

ask them directly about their fears. But

43:49

what you do is you talk

43:51

about or ask them questions related to

43:53

why it is they

43:55

respond to certain situations in the way that they

43:58

do. So let me give you one example. came

44:00

from Ray Dalio's book principles is he talks

44:02

about a situation where Ray

44:04

had an employee that

44:06

didn't put in a purchase. So Ray

44:09

Dalio's operating Bridgewater Associates, it's a

44:11

hedge fund. An employee didn't

44:13

put in a purchase on some stocks.

44:17

And because that employee forgot to

44:19

put in the purchase, the customer

44:21

missed out on $300,000. Now, so I present leaders with situations

44:23

like this.

44:28

And I say, how do you respond to this? What

44:30

are you going to do? And

44:32

most leaders say in the situation, I

44:34

need to fire them. Like we

44:36

need to, we need to send a

44:39

signal within the organization that this type

44:41

of behavior is not acceptable. And

44:44

then I say, here's what Ray Dalio

44:46

said about the situation and what Ray

44:48

Dalio said, essentially, I'm not going to

44:50

fire you because if I fire you,

44:53

that incentivizes everybody else to cover up

44:55

their mistakes. I understand that this

44:57

was a legitimate mistake. I don't want you to

44:59

ever do it again. But at the

45:01

same time, like, I don't want to punish

45:04

you because I want other people to

45:06

be open to bring forward the

45:09

mistakes that they make. Because it's

45:11

only if we have that type of

45:13

an atmosphere, the safe environment where that

45:15

can occur, that we can really excel

45:17

when it comes to our customer service.

45:20

And so anyways, I try to

45:22

bring up situations like these that

45:24

unpack generally how they

45:26

think about things and help them to

45:28

see that they could see these situations

45:30

in a different light. And

45:32

what are the pros and cons of that? So that's one

45:34

of the things that I do. The

45:36

other things that I do, I actually

45:39

just revolve around small

45:41

incremental things that they add in

45:44

to their day to improve

45:46

their mindsets. Such as one

45:48

of the I in fact, I got it right here on

45:50

my desk as I do it every day. Have you ever

45:52

used the five minute journal? Yeah, so

45:54

this is just a small task five minutes

45:56

a day we ask, what are you grateful

45:58

for? What are three things that would happen today

46:01

that would make today amazing, some

46:03

self-affirmations. And then at the end of the day,

46:05

what were the three amazing things that happened today and

46:07

what can I learn from this? For me,

46:09

I used to have a prevention

46:12

mindset and I'd never really

46:14

realized it until I started using the

46:16

five minute journal. And

46:18

then it forced me to be much more

46:21

promotion minded. And so over time, as I've

46:23

done this, I used the five minute journal

46:25

of just a small task, five

46:27

minutes a day. I feel

46:29

like it's truly rewired my brain

46:31

to become focused on what making

46:33

progress towards my goals, as opposed

46:35

to just trying not to fail.

46:38

And so small little tools

46:40

or interventions like the five

46:42

minute journal, even watching positive

46:44

YouTube videos, anything, the

46:47

small little interventions sustained over time changes

46:50

the wiring in our brain. So depending

46:52

on the mindset that the person is

46:54

working on, we could come up with

46:56

a plan of what are some small

46:59

little interventions that you can engage in

47:01

on a regular basis that'll get you

47:03

to change your mindset over time. Yeah.

47:06

I found journaling is a huge way

47:08

to change your mindset and be more mindful. If

47:10

you just observe yourself every day, then you read

47:12

back and you start seeing the themes

47:15

of you constantly like talking about the same stuff, you're

47:17

like, crap, I'm being an idiot. Jesus, did

47:19

not really deal with this thing. And

47:21

then I did think of a good story. Have

47:24

you read the Andrew Carnegie's

47:26

autobiography? He talks about

47:28

when he was, he was given

47:30

like his first sort of job.

47:32

He was 19 years old or something. And he was

47:34

doing wage role for this train company and he had

47:36

to take a train to go to this

47:38

other town and he had like $2,000 or

47:41

something in his pocket. The most money he's ever seen in his

47:43

life. But anyway, he was on the train and then he

47:45

gets to this other town and he hasn't got the

47:47

money because it fell out his pocket and he was

47:49

like, holy crap. You're going to

47:51

be fired. He'd never get like another promotion in his life. Everything would

47:53

have been terrible. He didn't try like next 20 years in his life,

47:56

paying a back. He convinces the train manager to

47:58

go back along with train and then about like. 10

48:00

miles, he just sees the bag on the

48:02

side untouched and picks up his, oh my God.

48:04

And he realizes that even though he's smart, you

48:07

can still make massive grubs and that could have ruined

48:09

his life. And he would have never gone on to

48:11

become like Andrew Carnegie and guy

48:14

on the planet. But because of that, he realized that actually

48:16

anyone can make a huge mistake and you shouldn't

48:18

just judge someone straight away for it because of

48:20

it's so easy to do something

48:23

and you should allow people and he

48:25

always was able to because we had

48:27

such a big lesson straight early in life from that.

48:29

And you're like, yeah, that's a really cool example

48:32

because that is a great example. Wow. Yeah. And

48:34

great lesson learned there. If

48:36

you're said than done to. Yeah. It does take something

48:38

bigger that to actually realize that yourself and then be

48:40

able to do that, but it's, I'm reading his book.

48:43

It's like a real life version

48:45

of how to win friends and influence people. He just

48:47

learns all these lessons himself quite luckily when he was

48:49

young and was mindful to actually observe them. And

48:52

he just wrote that book to himself in his head

48:54

just by watching what was going on in life. And

48:57

yeah, interesting. That's great. Ah, to check

48:59

that out. Right.

49:01

That is the end of the interview

49:03

for today. And hopefully the ending didn't

49:06

come across too harsh. We

49:08

possibly recorded for one hour and 40

49:10

minutes, which was definitely too long. Although

49:13

I did really enjoy it. And I

49:15

think we gave a great overview of mindsets

49:17

and some of the subtle, but important differences

49:19

for how we can view the world and

49:22

operate within it. I'm sure

49:24

at least a few of the examples were

49:26

relatable and certainly one of the most important

49:28

things to remind yourself of is that no

49:30

one thinks they have a fixed mindset or

49:32

a closed mindset. And in fact, thinking that

49:34

you don't have these tendencies is usually a

49:36

sign that you do have them. As

49:39

always, thanks a bunch for listening to the show

49:41

and we will be nothing without you, the listener.

49:43

If you have been intrigued about me mentioning these

49:46

calls that I'm doing on Wednesday afternoons, they are

49:48

open and free to book a slot with me

49:50

to have a chat. Whoever you are, wherever you

49:52

are. And if you're intrigued about

49:54

mindsets, like we discussed in today, I can

49:57

certainly dig into that with you, for example.

50:00

anything else that takes your fancy, or if you just

50:02

feel like being an audience research case for me and

50:04

having me ask all the questions, that is fine. Then

50:07

as always, this is a podcast and a

50:09

good rating is a super, super kind way

50:11

to make me feel like I'm special. And

50:14

most importantly, do you remember that life

50:16

is too short to spend your time

50:18

simply trying to not lose at things

50:20

when you could ambitiously be taking bigger

50:22

shots? No one is going to

50:24

make you do the things you dream of other than

50:26

you. So make a plan,

50:29

work on yourself, and good luck.