0:01

NBC5 investigates viral videos showing

0:04

people how to use this

0:06

$200 device that can unlock

0:08

cars, secure gates, even doors

0:10

to private buildings. Amazon

0:13

just banned these cloning devices from its

0:15

website. It can do a lot for $200. Well

0:17

we talked to security experts. And

0:20

so naturally I just had to buy one. You

0:24

see a news broadcast saying there

0:26

is a device that is no longer

0:28

legal. So naturally you

0:30

had to pick one up. It's not

0:32

illegal. It's just there's a

0:35

discussion going on around whether it's

0:37

going to remain legal, which means

0:39

that I had to get one

0:41

before that discussion elevates into law.

0:45

You wanted to get one while the getting is

0:47

good. That makes a lot of sense. I remember

0:49

when I first heard about this, it was with

0:52

murmurs that the Flipper Zero might

0:54

not be long for this world. And I too

0:56

wanted to buy one. So I'm very excited you

0:58

did. And we make a podcast. So

1:01

the best way you could possibly learn about

1:03

it is probably interviewing someone for this show.

1:06

So when I got it, I was like, what is

1:08

this thing? How does it work? How do I use it?

1:11

Right. So I did what everybody does. And I

1:13

went to YouTube. One stop

1:15

shop. Yeah. And what did

1:17

I find on YouTube? I found

1:19

lots of content regarding the Flipper Zero,

1:21

but typically one large YouTuber, the Talking

1:25

Sasquatch or Talking Sasquatch or Sas, as I

1:27

like to call him. And

1:30

he makes predominantly Flipper Zero

1:32

content and seems to be the biggest channel. So

1:35

I did what any sane podcaster would do. Instead

1:37

of watching all of his content, I

1:40

invited him on the show to explain it

1:42

all to me in person. It

2:03

really is like the luxury of hosting a podcast,

2:05

the shortest distance between not knowing something and knowing

2:07

something. Would you please just come on my show

2:10

and explain it to me? Exactly.

2:13

So today we're joined by the Talking Sasquatch and

2:15

we're going to go through the flipper zero and

2:17

all the questions that I had about it, which

2:19

I hope you find interesting. It's a bit more

2:21

of a technical episode today as Jordan

2:25

can attest to. If that's not for you,

2:27

that's fine. I hope you enjoy some of

2:29

the other content, but stick around. It was

2:31

a pretty interesting chat. Yeah, it's a technical

2:33

conversation, but it's also a fascinating deep dive

2:35

into both what you can do

2:37

with this device, where it came from,

2:40

this kind of story of all these different

2:42

hacker tools being brought together into like kind

2:44

of more of a gadget, something between a gadget

2:46

and a platform. And

2:49

then what it means to share information on

2:51

the internet about a device that has kind

2:54

of a little bit of like a reputation behind

2:57

it. What it means to share stuff and to

2:59

have to navigate, is this okay for me to

3:01

be putting out there in the world? Is this

3:03

useful information or is this like hacker

3:06

information? It is a fascinating conversation

3:08

and Talking Sasquatch was great

3:10

to chat with. So

3:13

thanks. Thanks for coming on the show. You

3:16

know, we really appreciate you making the

3:18

time, making the time to come on

3:20

and enlighten me notably, but also, you

3:22

know, vicariously enlighten our listeners. So thanks

3:25

for having me. So

3:27

the I bought one of

3:29

these flipper zeros, I read an article that said

3:31

that they might potentially get banned. And

3:33

then that of course, triggered in me

3:35

that burning need

3:37

to immediately add to cart and buy

3:40

one. So I bought one, I

3:42

really like hadn't done any research into them. I

3:45

just knew that they were like these cool little

3:47

hacking utilities. I won't call

3:49

it a toy because it's not a toy. And

3:52

I was like, what does this thing even do? How

3:55

do I use this thing and immediately found your content

3:57

and was like, you know what, I'm just going to

3:59

fire. this Sasquatch a

4:01

message and see if he wants to come on the

4:03

show and just have a chat about these things because

4:05

you know considerably more than I probably

4:07

ever will about this device so I just thought

4:10

it'd be great to have you on. Well

4:12

yeah I definitely know how to do a few things

4:14

at this point and

4:17

it's interesting too because it's always evolving

4:19

right like every week it seems there's

4:21

a new app that comes out is

4:23

a new something like there's a paradigm

4:25

shift and like it's just really really

4:28

weird and I know all

4:30

sorts of tech is like that where

4:32

literally things go from like 50 miles

4:35

an hour to 100 miles an hour like just because

4:37

one person shows up but

4:40

there's always some cool stuff to do which

4:42

would be really good for a flipper for

4:44

me because you know there's always content there

4:46

is always you know evolving situations and stuff.

4:49

Totally totally so the just everybody knows

4:52

our guest this week talking Sasquatch has a

4:54

great YouTube channel that talks considerably

4:56

about this device as well as other

4:58

devices I see as I think your

5:01

most recent video is in regards to

5:03

a Wi-Fi

5:06

device that is not a flipper based one but

5:09

the yeah I

5:11

think a great place to start is you know kind of

5:14

what is it you know what is

5:16

this thing it's very odd looking as

5:19

a weird shape what is it

5:21

and where did it come from so like I don't

5:23

know if you if you know where it's

5:25

from I assume by some of the Russian lettering on

5:27

the soft case that I got for it that it

5:29

might be from Russia but yeah so yeah

5:33

the flipper team is I think Russian and

5:35

Ukrainian something like that the

5:37

logistics of all that I'm not particularly

5:39

well versed on but obviously it was

5:41

in Kickstarter for a few years and

5:45

it's one of those things that people were

5:47

starting to question Moses thing ever gonna actually

5:49

exist but yeah it's it's

5:51

kind of billed as a cybersecurity toy

5:54

for a number of reasons one I

5:57

mean it's fun you know you've got

5:59

little animations put that on it.

6:01

So it's got like the

6:03

very most basic virtual pet

6:06

like kind of functionality. But

6:09

underneath it is a pretty

6:11

okay Swiss Army knife of

6:14

CyberSec tools and kind of

6:17

especially for penetration testing. It's

6:20

got some pretty decent functionality. Now it's

6:22

not the best at doing virtually anything,

6:24

but the fact that one small thing

6:27

the size of you know a couple

6:29

of lighters, you

6:31

can do a whole bunch of cool stuff. Because

6:35

like most of my backgrounds in software

6:37

side of the hacking thing, I never

6:39

really got into the hardware side. A

6:41

little bit of phone freaking back in

6:43

the day, but mostly software side. And

6:46

the gist that I've gotten aside from just playing

6:48

an endless amount of snake on it, which I

6:50

have been doing and I've done pretty well at

6:52

is that this is kind of a

6:54

multi, you know,

6:57

functional platform to build out hardware

6:59

hacking things that has a bunch

7:01

of built in functionality like a

7:03

bunch of different radio receivers and

7:05

transmitters as well as infrared receivers

7:07

and transmitters and a C

7:09

receivers and transmitters. And just kind of

7:11

it seems like it's like an extensible

7:13

platform, but you kind of agree with that. Absolutely.

7:17

And what's really interesting being from

7:20

the software side is that

7:22

people are still kind of unlocking

7:24

different features or different, you know,

7:27

different things that you can do

7:29

with the flipper just through the

7:31

software. Specifically

7:33

the BLE spam. The

7:36

people finally kind of figured out that they

7:38

were able to emulate these BLE packets and

7:41

now they're using them to kind of attack

7:43

cell phones and things like that. And

7:47

it's really interesting because that functionality obviously

7:49

was there since day one. But the

7:51

idea of doing it

7:55

with a flipper and stuff like that kind of just

7:57

recently came out and it's really interesting to see. things

8:00

like that because yeah with GPIO you

8:03

can make almost anything for flipper.

8:06

I mean we've seen obviously Wi-Fi

8:08

boards but now we have GPS,

8:11

there are range extenders, antennas, boosters,

8:13

all sorts of cool stuff. I

8:15

just want to rewind a

8:17

hair there and talk about some of some

8:19

of those acronyms. BLE, so

8:22

like the is Bluetooth low

8:24

energy right? Yeah yeah, Bluetooth

8:26

low energy. So this thing

8:28

can emit Bluetooth

8:30

low energy signals? Correct.

8:33

People have then figured

8:35

out how to spam them at devices,

8:38

essentially causing the devices to lock, correct?

8:41

There's a few of them. So the

8:43

first one is basically a pairing

8:46

spam. So you can just throw

8:49

like a bunch of headphones, try to pair

8:51

with your phone over and over again and

8:53

since there are so many different headphones, all

8:55

of those headphones like on an iPhone, anytime

8:57

you pair in like a JBL or

9:00

a Jabra or anything like that, it shows

9:02

up as the actual device. All of those

9:04

devices are mapped to like an image of

9:06

it so there is

9:08

a little bit of a fail-safe so

9:11

you can't take the same device and

9:13

try to pair it over and over and over again

9:15

but you can try to pair different devices. So what

9:17

they figured out is they, yeah all you have to

9:19

do is take a, all

9:22

through the list of the devices and keep

9:24

sending it to the phone over and over

9:26

again and effectively you won't be able to

9:28

really use the phone. There is another attack

9:30

vector that they figured out which effectively starts

9:32

an audio device or something. I don't remember

9:34

the exact logistics of it but it effectively

9:37

starts what I believe is an audio device

9:40

and it will spike the GPU or the CPU

9:42

to 100% and in doing that it makes

9:47

it so that the temperature control sensor

9:50

or temperature control service won't run and

9:52

if that doesn't run then the kernel

9:54

is not getting temperature information from the

9:56

CPU and then it does

9:59

kernel panic. locks up shuts down. Weird.

10:03

Interesting. Yeah, and it's just

10:05

one of those things that I think somebody did by

10:07

accident at some point in time and they crashed their

10:09

phone, trying to figure out what else they can do

10:11

with it and they're like, wait a minute, does this work for you? Your

10:13

phone too? Yeah, it works on your

10:15

phone too? And then all of a

10:17

sudden, I'm making a video about it. Sure,

10:21

crash your own device and realize there's a

10:23

vulnerability out there. Yeah. Then

10:26

the next kind of acronym you

10:28

popped out there was GPIO, which

10:30

is the general purpose

10:32

input output pins. So there's 18 little

10:35

holes on the top of this thing

10:37

that you can essentially clip circuit boards

10:39

into, to the best of my

10:41

knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong on this. No,

10:43

that's absolutely correct. Yeah, and it delivers DC

10:46

current to them so they can be powered

10:48

boards. It has kind of, I

10:51

actually believe when I ordered it, I

10:53

ordered prototype boards, which are just blank

10:55

circuit boards that are meant for you

10:57

to build whatever you would like, clip

11:00

it in and write the code to make it work.

11:03

You've built a few of these things, haven't you? You've built

11:05

some of these boards yourself? Yeah,

11:08

so one of the things that I did when I

11:10

first started off just messing with Flipper was I didn't

11:13

buy the official wifi board, didn't know

11:15

what it did, so I didn't

11:17

really waste any money or time on it, so

11:20

I didn't get one of those. And then I

11:22

had seen, I

11:25

can't remember who was doing it at the time, but

11:27

they were just hooking up a ESP32 because,

11:30

and that's just a little, basically a

11:33

wifi board, and what's cool

11:35

about that is only four wires to it.

11:37

So you can have a set

11:39

of DuPont wires, plug in four wires,

11:41

and you can flash this thing

11:43

into a little wifi board using the

11:46

Marauder firmware by Just Call Me Coco. So

11:50

yeah, that was the first thing that I ever did, and

11:53

I'm like, oh, this is really cool. And yeah,

11:55

I mean, you could just use with a prototyping boards

11:57

or anything like that. Now I am not a hardware

11:59

person. per se, and then I've always kind

12:01

of liked it. I know how to solder

12:04

and things like that, but I'm a bicycle

12:06

mechanic by trade. I mean, I've done that

12:08

for 20-some years at this point. And

12:12

over the years, I've done some things here

12:14

and there, but yeah, I never really did

12:16

any of this stuff professionally. And that's one

12:18

of the things that's cool about Flipper is

12:21

because it brings a lot of people that

12:24

may not be in either cybersecurity

12:26

or technology or any of this

12:28

stuff. And it kind of gives

12:30

them a reason to maybe get in there. Once

12:32

you start messing with stuff, you can get more

12:34

and more complicated because after I made that first

12:36

board with the four wires, I

12:39

decided that I wanted to make a multi-board. So

12:41

I wanted to have the wifi, but I also

12:43

wanted to have NRF24 on it, which

12:46

is, that was what you

12:48

use for trying to take control over wireless

12:51

mice and keyboards on a 2.4 gigahertz like

12:54

frequency. So I wanted to add one

12:56

of those to there as well. That's

12:58

another seven wires. And at the same

13:00

time, somebody had showed me

13:02

a picture of a Helltech, the

13:07

SP32 with an OLED screen on it. And I'm like,

13:09

you know what? I want to try to

13:11

put my logo on this thing. And

13:14

I didn't even have a logo. I was, I mean,

13:17

my Discord name was talking Sasquatch because this is

13:19

the name I've used forever, literally

13:21

forever. So yeah, I

13:25

was like, all right, cool. I'm going to put a Sasquatch on it. So I spent

13:28

a lot of time and energy figuring

13:31

that out because me and Arduino IDE

13:33

and me are not best friends. The

13:37

Helltech board itself is super proprietary.

13:39

So all of their commands and

13:41

stuff are like their

13:44

own. So you can't, it

13:46

was not easy to do. I ended up spending

13:49

a lot of time begging people for help on

13:51

the Arduino Discord, but eventually we got it going.

13:53

But yeah, so that was like another board that

13:55

I made. And I just kind of kept going

13:58

from there, slightly more intricate every time. So

14:01

having something like the flipper was really

14:03

a catalyst that allowed me to try

14:05

to do some things that I never

14:08

would have tried before. And

14:11

starting off small and then working your way up,

14:13

it's kind of a good way to, again, that's a

14:16

great way to learn how to do anything. So what

14:18

you're saying is this is a gateway drug? It

14:21

really is. It really is though. If

14:24

you ask anybody who really got into it, it

14:28

really is. Especially because you can go from

14:30

there, then I started messing with firmware. And

14:33

actually one of the first things that I did too

14:35

was I started messing with animations. How

14:37

I made my initial reputation was actually

14:39

for writing the tutorial on how to

14:42

make flipper animations. Because before I had

14:44

written it down, the only way to

14:46

really find out how to do that

14:48

was to go literally beg people to

14:50

tell you how it's done. And

14:52

a lot of cases, those people, because they

14:55

learned how to do it from Val. Val

14:57

was the animator for

14:59

the official flipper project. And occasionally she would

15:02

show up in their Discord and everybody would

15:04

gather around and start asking all these questions.

15:07

But nobody had formally written down the process

15:09

for it. And even once I figured it

15:11

out or once I was kind of taught

15:13

how to do it from all the other

15:16

people, I

15:18

had some stuff wrong too. I had made

15:20

some assumptions and some of the things that

15:22

I was doing were incorrect. And I only

15:24

found out until later that, oh, OK, cool.

15:26

So the tutorial was a living

15:28

project, so we kept changing it. But yeah,

15:31

it was really interesting because there's so many things

15:33

you can do on it. Then

15:35

I started making the animations and then I realized

15:37

that I didn't like the way the top bar

15:40

looked because it was hiding too much of the

15:42

screen. Somebody had already figured

15:44

out how to get rid of the there's

15:46

a little ribbon cable that sits

15:48

on the top of the screen on the flipper interface.

15:50

Somebody already figured out how to get rid of that.

15:52

So I'm like, well, if you can get rid of

15:54

that, I want to get rid of the SD card

15:56

icon and stuff. So I spent a ton of time

15:58

in the firmware. figuring out

16:01

how to delete that because again I don't

16:03

know C at all. All

16:05

I can do is look at code and try

16:07

to understand it and modify it. So I spent

16:09

hours and hours and hours doing that and eventually

16:11

I figured it out. So it got me a

16:13

little bit more comfortable working with, you

16:16

know, working with the firmware. So I

16:18

started making custom stuff for firmware as

16:20

well. So again, this little silly device,

16:22

it's supposed to be some sort of

16:25

cyber tech, or cyber sec,

16:28

but like E-Pet is

16:31

a great intro into whatever you want to do with

16:33

it. You know, not only a gateway

16:35

drug as far as hardware goes, you've actually started

16:37

writing some code and messing about in the sea

16:39

at this point. So it's broken

16:41

you in entirely into the cyber security

16:43

world. Yeah, in general.

16:45

Yeah. Well, so again, that's been

16:47

really fun. And it just

16:50

gives you a reason to kind of mess

16:52

around with stuff. Yeah, totally. The I want

16:55

to talk about firmware in a second, but the one

16:57

thing I want to talk about was there's

16:59

some criticism about this device that I've seen from

17:01

other major YouTubers and stuff talking about how you

17:03

could use a Raspberry Pi to do most of

17:05

these things. But it just seems

17:07

like to me that seems insane

17:10

because starting with a blank Raspberry Pi and

17:12

having to build all of these attachments and

17:14

write all these apps yourself or find them

17:16

and modify them and install them versus just

17:19

getting this tiny little device and it already

17:22

supporting so many different things

17:24

radio bands NFC. So

17:26

many things that you would have to figure out

17:28

how to build a circuit board to add onto

17:30

a Raspberry Pi. This seems insane to me versus

17:33

just paying 300 bucks and getting this thing. Yeah,

17:36

and I mean it's the right now that

17:38

the official pricing because they were always inflated

17:40

in the aftermarket with official pricing and in

17:42

America is like 169 was like 170. Yeah.

17:47

And what's a Raspberry Pi going for now last one

17:49

I bought was like $75. Yeah,

17:52

and then yeah, you have to write your

17:54

own software. You have to add all the

17:56

modules and stuff and then you have this

17:58

monstrosity. that

18:00

you have to like, I guess you're gonna try

18:02

to use it at that point. Obviously you're not

18:05

doing anything like actually

18:07

red teaming with it, because I

18:09

mean you're gonna need a briefcase. It just

18:12

doesn't make any sense. So I do

18:14

understand that and honestly I have been

18:16

waiting for someone to do a good

18:18

write-up of a DIY

18:21

flipper zero because I will absolutely make that.

18:24

Because that's just fun. I would totally do

18:26

that, but especially to show what it takes

18:28

to make a flipper zero. Yeah, totally. But

18:30

obviously all the coding and stuff for that

18:32

is just all just crazy. So

18:34

trying to actually do that seems like a

18:36

fool's errand if anything. Because I've heard a

18:38

ton of people say they're gonna do it.

18:40

I'm gonna make a cheaper flipper zero. I'm

18:42

like okay cool where's your startup capital? Get

18:45

ready, you're gonna need some coders. Yeah

18:47

well the idea of trying to rebuild.

18:50

Like I could see trying to make a better version of

18:52

it, but I couldn't ever see the idea of trying to

18:54

make a cheaper version of it. Like I don't find it

18:58

particularly expensive. I think

19:01

I were in Canada so I think this thing cost

19:03

me like $260. Which is you know

19:05

give or take a little bit of conversion

19:07

and maybe a little bit of aftermarket pricing

19:09

from distribution taxes or something. But essentially the

19:12

same thing that you pay. But like I couldn't

19:16

imagine trying to build one of these

19:18

things with this much functionality and this

19:20

much extensibility for less and be able

19:23

to manufacture and sell it at a

19:25

profit and sustainable for cheaper than

19:27

that. That seems wild to me. Yeah

19:30

one of the main reasons why trying

19:32

to recreate this doesn't make sense is

19:34

simply because flipper is as much a

19:36

community project as it is the actual

19:38

devs. So it's got a year worth

19:41

of all these really smart people putting

19:43

in all this work trying to make

19:45

this thing work correctly. And I think

19:48

that's literally like one of the biggest

19:50

selling points for this thing at this point. Some

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at hm.com. You

22:19

said something kind of similar in one of your videos

22:21

I watched. It was like, you said something to the

22:23

effect of without the community, the Flipper Zero is nothing.

22:26

So for, I guess, someone like me who doesn't own one

22:28

of these things yet, but is sort of up to speed

22:30

on what it can do, where's that

22:32

line between what it can really do

22:34

out of the box, the sort of

22:36

like manufacturer-intended uses, and what the

22:38

community has empowered it to do? Like a broad overview

22:40

of what it can do and what people have figured

22:42

out it can do. Sure,

22:45

so basically

22:47

the bare model Flipper, especially in

22:49

the earlier times, obviously they have

22:51

frequencies and things that are locked

22:53

out for different places. And

22:56

honestly, most people don't really need to use those frequencies,

22:58

but that's one of the things that the custom firmwares

23:00

do. But beyond that, most

23:02

of the good applications are

23:04

written by the community. Obviously

23:07

the frequency analyzers and some of

23:09

the IR functions, like

23:12

those are things that were built by

23:14

the original devs, but all

23:17

of the additional hardware and functionality has

23:20

been from the community. So you've

23:23

got a lot of stuff, like again,

23:25

using the Wi-Fi board that comes with

23:27

it, or that you can buy with

23:30

it, that's set up with a firmware

23:32

called Blackmagic. What that's for is it's

23:34

a log viewer, it's a debug viewer.

23:36

So you can wirelessly read the logs

23:38

from Flipper. That's what

23:41

it was more or less designed

23:43

to do. What the community ended

23:45

up doing was installing JustCallMeCoco's Wi-Fi

23:47

Marauder on it. Now you can

23:49

test Wi-Fi devices, so you can

23:52

deauthenticate Wi-Fi devices, you

23:54

can record their handshakes, you can try

23:56

to decrypt passwords and things like that.

24:00

more functionality. You've also got people

24:02

like RabbitLab out there and

24:04

AWOC making all sorts of boards. So

24:06

again we've got the NRF board which

24:09

I mentioned before for trying to intercept

24:11

wireless keyboards and mice. You've

24:14

got a number of different

24:16

CC1101 is basically the chipset

24:18

that they use to get

24:22

sub gigahertz frequencies and basically the

24:24

community has made ones of

24:26

those that work for 10 times

24:28

further than what it currently works on

24:30

without it. So they

24:32

really added to the functionalities to the base

24:34

functionality through all of these you know community

24:37

projects and it's just really cool to see.

24:39

So the sub gigahertz frequencies

24:41

what are they typically used in do

24:43

you know? So I

24:46

mean the they're

24:48

normally 433 and 900

24:50

I believe. Okay and

24:53

they're used in what like ID pass cards and

24:55

stuff right? The

24:57

ID pass cards are yeah

24:59

those are gonna

25:01

be RFID or there's gonna be NFC

25:03

both of which the flipper can definitely

25:05

handle and the

25:08

wireless stuff is

25:12

anything from older car keys. Well granted you can

25:14

read a car key it's no problem you can't

25:16

use it in most current keys. Because

25:18

they use rolling codes and which basically just

25:21

means they have a sequential

25:23

list of codes that it will use based

25:25

on an algorithm and without knowing the algorithm

25:27

you don't know the next codes you can't

25:29

use it. But that's what the the CC1101

25:32

sub gigahertz stuff does. Same with I

25:34

using the control lights and stuff and little other

25:36

stuff like that. And then

25:39

yeah it does NFC so it can

25:41

read a lot of my fare keys

25:44

you can decrypt if you have enough of the the

25:48

segment sorry and

25:50

yeah you can you can emulate a lot

25:52

of RFID stuffs were

25:54

pretty easy to copy so anything that's relatively

25:56

low security you can pretty much copy to

25:59

and then you can get some

26:01

data off of credit cards, which was

26:03

a bit of a problem because that's

26:05

why they got kicked off at Amazon

26:07

because Amazon saw that as being able

26:10

to skim credit cards, which it definitely

26:12

does not do. Yeah. So

26:14

like in the old, you know, hacker

26:16

movies and movies that have some cybersecurity

26:18

professional and somebody steals somebody's

26:20

like hotel key room card, these

26:24

things like, when I first got it, I was

26:26

looking through all the little sections, I updated

26:28

to the newest firmware and stuff, went through

26:30

some of the apps and it's as easy

26:33

as like hitting read, tapping the card and

26:35

then hitting emulate and then tapping the like

26:37

the hotel room door and boom,

26:39

it opens. Yeah, and that will

26:41

work on some systems, it

26:43

won't on some other ones, it depends on the

26:46

libraries and the dictionaries that you have. Of course.

26:48

But yeah, I mean, it's literally, in a lot

26:50

of cases, that easy. Let's chat

26:52

about the firmware world because that was one thing like when I

26:55

got this thing, I was like, what do I do with it?

26:57

I didn't even buy an SD card because I didn't realize it

26:59

needed one. I did that too. I

27:01

am that guy as well, so don't feel too bad. I

27:05

got it and then I was like looking around at

27:07

it and then I see some of your videos and

27:09

I see some other content about them and I was like, man, it

27:12

seems like mine's missing a bunch of stuff and

27:14

then I started looking into it and there's a

27:16

bunch of different major firmware manufacturers you wanna lay

27:18

maybe, as somebody that's been a part of that

27:20

community, just give me a rundown or

27:22

give us a rundown of like, you know.

27:24

So yeah, I can do that. Basically, I'll do a quick

27:26

little story time in case you wanna know. I like that,

27:29

I like story time. And I'm pretty

27:31

sure this is pretty accurate.

27:34

Not 100% on everything because

27:36

again, this is all like spoken word history, but

27:39

hopefully my memory is good enough for this. So

27:43

yeah, basically in the beginning, it was

27:45

just the normal firmware. And

27:48

then there was Nano

27:50

and Engineer, I wanna say.

27:53

There were two guys that were working

27:55

on the firmware earlier on, then it

27:58

ended up just being Nano. for one reason or

28:00

another, who won't get into. And then, yeah, basically,

28:04

Unleashed was born at that point in time.

28:06

The fact that they unlocked

28:09

the frequency regular, the frequency

28:11

blocks for certain countries was

28:13

relatively frowned on upon in

28:16

the official firmware land. So most of

28:19

those guys got kind of exiled

28:21

for lack of a better term. So

28:24

that kind of branched off. So now we

28:26

have Unleashed firmware. And

28:28

then Rogue Master came along, and

28:31

basically what Rogue Master was doing was

28:33

taking the Unleashed firmware, adding things like

28:35

animations, which was one of the things

28:37

that got me into Rogue Master

28:39

firmware anyway, because I like animations and stuff

28:42

like that. I have like

28:44

a touch of the ADHD and

28:46

things that are moving around kind of make me

28:48

happy. But yeah, so that was

28:50

one of the things that I liked about it.

28:52

And then he would also go through and scrub

28:54

pretty much any application that he could find for

28:58

Flipper, and he would add it to the

29:00

firmware like right away. So that app had,

29:02

or that would have basically the newest everything

29:04

on it all the time. One

29:06

of the downsides to that was some

29:08

of these apps didn't work super well

29:11

yet. Because again, this

29:13

is, we're all doing all the bleeding edge

29:15

technology or technology, but bleeding edge software.

29:18

So sometimes those things wouldn't work and

29:20

you'd end up with stuff that crashed. But I

29:22

mean, again, if you want the latest and greatest,

29:24

sometimes you run into issues with compatibility. So

29:27

that's where Rogue Master kind of came

29:29

from. And then Extreme popped up with

29:31

Clara. She started

29:34

working on a firmware, I want to say

29:36

it was December of last year, as

29:40

kind of an aesthetic pack on

29:42

top of Rogue Master. And

29:46

that was more or less the idea, started

29:48

optimizing some of the codes there. At

29:51

some point decided to reset and

29:53

basically rebuild that firmware based off

29:55

of official firmware. So it's no

29:57

longer a fork. So. And

30:00

then they started working on more stuff there. Willy

30:03

showed up and Willy is their main

30:05

dev now there too, and

30:08

really started doing some new stuff.

30:10

Willy's very good at C and

30:14

coding for Flipper in particular. So

30:16

at that point, Extreme

30:18

really started doing a lot

30:21

of really unique things. So

30:25

most of the newest stuff out

30:27

there has been really

30:29

pushed and been helped out

30:32

by Willy and Extreme, the

30:34

firmware. So they've done a

30:36

lot of good stuff over there. So right now, most

30:39

of the Extreme firmware is, as

30:42

they've got most of the newest stuff out there because people

30:44

are reaching out to the XFW

30:47

devs whenever they have a new project

30:49

or something. And they're actually

30:51

being very active with the community

30:53

in adding support for different add-on

30:55

modules and stuff like that. So

30:57

it's really been cool because yeah,

30:59

you can make something like RabbitLabs

31:02

will make an antenna and reach

31:04

out to XFW and be like,

31:06

hey, can you make sure this

31:08

is gonna work well on your

31:10

firmware? And they'll add a

31:12

function to it. Like the

31:14

ability to actually plug in

31:17

external IR had

31:19

to be built into the firmware because obviously

31:21

it didn't exist because there

31:23

was no real reason to do it. But because

31:25

of that, now we have the ability to plug

31:28

in IR boards that have seven or 12 or

31:30

whatever LEDs on it. So

31:32

it's a lot more functionality, but that had to

31:34

be built into the firmware. And the fact that

31:36

people could just go out and ask Willy if

31:38

they could try to get it put

31:40

into the firmware, it was

31:42

pretty cool. So those are

31:45

the main three custom firmwares. There

31:50

were some earlier things that were kind of abandoned

31:52

ware, but like, yeah, that's pretty much

31:54

where things are at at the moment. So

31:57

when I got it, obviously as an extreme

31:59

person, but on the extreme firmware, was

32:01

that the right move? There

32:06

are no wrong moves, honestly.

32:09

I tell everybody to try everything out.

32:13

They all have their pluses and minuses, absolutely.

32:15

And they all have different kind of artistic

32:17

directions as far as what they're made for.

32:21

Like Unleashed is a little bit

32:23

less, it's a little trimmed down

32:25

for a reason. Like

32:28

they don't include as many things

32:30

because they really, the idea for

32:32

extreme was to include functionality, but

32:35

let people decide what apps and files and stuff

32:37

they wanted. Where

32:39

like Rogue Master was just like, I want everything on

32:41

it, I wanna just, everything that's available, I wanna put

32:43

in my firmware. And extreme

32:46

decided they wanted to redo everything.

32:48

So they kind of just made

32:51

their own stuff. Like they redid

32:53

the entire UI, they added their

32:55

own settings and things like that.

32:57

They were the ones that finally figured out how

32:59

to change themes and stuff, which is something that

33:01

I had wanted to do for a while. But

33:03

again, I'm not a coder, so that was way

33:05

outside of my realm

33:07

of influence. But they

33:09

did a lot of really cool stuff that I

33:12

had always wanted to see implemented. So I was always

33:14

impressed by that. As

33:17

somebody who hasn't spent much time playing with it

33:19

or using it or looked into building anything for

33:21

it or even shoved any

33:23

boards or modules in the GPIO, the one thing

33:25

in the extreme firmware that I gotta say I

33:28

loved was the ability to turn it off easier.

33:30

Instead of having to go through the menus and find the

33:33

power off switch, you could just tap on

33:35

the back button until it prompted you to turn off. And

33:38

that as a basic user meant a

33:40

lot to me. And I was like, wow, this is great.

33:43

So here's a funny thing. And this is something

33:45

that catches people off guard or off guard all

33:47

the time. And it did the same thing for

33:49

me. That function

33:51

is in the official firmware.

33:54

However, you have to hold

33:56

it for a very, very, very

33:58

long time. At the point

34:00

where you're like, is this working? So

34:03

it does do that on the official firmware. They just cut

34:05

the time down to like two seconds, or one second. Yeah,

34:08

yeah, yeah. When I first got it

34:10

and I had the default firmware, I tried and

34:13

I was like, you gotta be able just to hold this button

34:15

down. And I held it for a long time and it never

34:17

prompted me to turn off. And then I was like, oh my

34:19

god, do I actually have to go into the menu and go

34:21

to the power, turn it off through there? So

34:24

that is funny that it did exist. It just was

34:26

a user experience problem rather than a

34:29

code issue. Yeah, and I

34:31

always thought, I'm like, why do you have to

34:33

hold it so long? It's just weird. Yeah,

34:36

that's interesting. It's good to know some

34:38

of the background of this thing as

34:40

it definitely, I recently flew somewhere and I

34:42

didn't wanna take it. I'm

34:44

kind of afraid of it in this small way.

34:47

I'm like, is this gonna emit problematic radio transmissions

34:49

and I don't wanna have it on an airplane?

34:51

Will I get stop at customs for having this thing?

34:56

What is the liability that I've now taken on

34:58

by owning this thing and carrying it around with

35:00

me? And for the

35:03

most part, it won't be an issue. Don't go to Brazil. I

35:05

think that's probably the one caveat. But

35:08

yeah, for the most part, it's really not a big deal.

35:11

People travel with these all the time. Granted,

35:13

yeah, because we had a bunch of, everybody wants a DEF

35:15

CON. So a bunch of flippers,

35:17

so they all made it. Cool,

35:19

I think we're gonna be a DEF CON next year. So

35:21

hopefully we'll see you there. Yeah,

35:23

I'm wanting to go. And I've already kind of

35:25

mentioned to my employer and stuff that I'll probably

35:28

be doing that. So yeah, I

35:30

very much hope to go next year. Let's

35:32

chat about some of the modules that go on

35:34

this thing because it seems like there's a lot

35:36

of them. It seems like

35:39

there's a lot that kind of do the same thing. I've

35:41

looked at some of the ones from AWALK,

35:44

is that right? Yep,

35:46

AWALK. And some of

35:49

them seem as impressive as the Flipper Zero

35:51

itself, literally. I look at some of these

35:53

modules and I'm like, oh my God. Somebody

35:55

like massive OLED screen, bunch

35:57

of external antenna arrays. They

36:01

seem really comprehensive. So like what have you

36:03

found to be some of the best modules?

36:06

Actually, I'm gonna read from that question and

36:08

say what should I buy to play more

36:10

with this thing? Okay. Cause

36:13

that's really what I'm asking. It's

36:15

pretty easy. So first things first, doesn't matter where

36:17

you get it from, buy a wifi

36:20

board. You can get the official one,

36:22

that's fine. Or you can get one from literally

36:25

almost anyone. Awalk's a good friend of

36:27

mine. And

36:30

yeah, get an external wifi board.

36:32

That's really, really cool. Beyond

36:35

that, the external CC1101s

36:37

are very cool because

36:40

it extends the range that Flipper has by a

36:42

lot. So

36:45

you can access

36:48

things that are much, much further away. And

36:50

it's a lot, this makes it a lot easier to

36:54

actually do the things you wanna do.

36:56

And the CC1101 is used

36:59

for what exactly? Is that sub gigahertz? Yeah,

37:01

it's a sub gigahertz range extender. Okay.

37:05

So what you're referring to is

37:07

actually a really interesting thing. You're

37:09

looking at the dual ESP32 touchscreen.

37:13

That's a very cool project for a number of

37:15

reasons. And it's a project that I, when he

37:17

first sent me the pictures of this thing, I

37:19

was like, oh man, this is always what I

37:21

wanted this to be. The

37:24

original design of this,

37:26

or the original one I actually made,

37:30

I wanted to do a, cause

37:32

I put the touchscreen on a

37:35

combo board. So I had a

37:37

touchscreen ESP32, and

37:39

then I had a NRF24 on that. So

37:43

kind of the earlier version of the

37:45

dual ESP. And then my next one

37:47

that I made, which was my Yeti board, which

37:49

was actually a PCB project I worked

37:52

on with a guy named I.M. Orion.

37:54

And what that was, it actually

37:56

had two ESP32s on it. one

38:00

of which was running the screen, so you could run,

38:03

just call me Coco's Wi-Fi Marauder, because

38:06

the software, the firmware, that

38:08

actually runs the Wi-Fi

38:11

card, you know, the flipper Wi-Fi card,

38:14

that's the same one that

38:16

Coco uses in his ESP32

38:18

Marauder standalone setups. So

38:20

he actually has a device, which

38:22

is for Wi-Fi penetration testing, and

38:25

it's a standalone device, and it's got

38:28

its own firmware. The ESP32 runs the screen. So

38:31

when I realized that, I was like, all right,

38:33

cool, I put that on one of my boards.

38:35

But what I really wanted to do, was

38:38

I wanted to have two ESP32s, one

38:41

that was on its own, and one that was

38:44

run by the flipper. The

38:46

idea was, basically you used the

38:48

flipper to do a de-authentication attack

38:50

against a Wi-Fi device, so that's

38:53

gonna kick that device

38:55

off of the Wi-Fi, and

38:57

then use the standalone to get

38:59

the PCAP file, the handshake files,

39:01

for when it reconnects. So you're

39:03

kind of doing two halves of

39:05

the same attack, where you are

39:09

both kicking something off of a network, and trying

39:11

to capture when they try to reconnect. So

39:14

that's why this board, why

39:16

I made my board, and then AWAC

39:19

saw that, and he's like, okay, that's

39:21

a cool idea. And so he made

39:23

the one that he has, basically

39:27

what I wanted to do, just done by somebody

39:29

who's better at it. So yeah,

39:32

that's what the dual ESP32 that he

39:34

created was, was pretty

39:36

much the same idea as the one that

39:38

I did, just executed much better. So

39:41

just for explanation's sake, ESP32

39:45

are Wi-Fi chips, correct? Basically it's a Wi-Fi

39:47

board, and some of them have Bluetooth. Gotcha,

39:49

gotcha. And then something you mentioned a few

39:52

times, that I'm not fully up on, and

39:54

don't fully understand what it is, and I

39:56

doubt Jordan does. The Wi-Fi

39:59

Marauder. What

40:01

exactly is the Wi-Fi Marauder? The

40:04

ESP32 Marauder is an entire

40:06

program set, and what that does is

40:08

it can do deauthentication

40:11

attacks, it can scan Wi-Fi

40:13

networks, it can capture handshakes,

40:16

it basically can send

40:19

and receive Wi-Fi stuff. And you can

40:21

just basically figure out what you want

40:23

to do with the information that you're

40:25

sending or receiving. Can

40:27

it sniff? Can it sniff

40:29

on encrypted network traffic? So

40:33

yes and no. I don't think

40:35

you're getting as

40:37

much data as you would on Wireshark or

40:39

anything. But you

40:42

can sniff a decent amount of stuff, and you

40:44

can just sniff raw and just see what you

40:46

get. So yeah, you can do a decent amount of stuff

40:48

with it. Let's

40:50

just talk about the PCAP stuff for a sec, because I

40:53

know what it is, but some other people might not. So

40:56

the DAuth, let's just start with DAuth. So

40:58

when you DAuth attacks, I mean, you're essentially

41:00

punting it from a Wi-Fi network, correct? Yeah,

41:03

so DAuth authentication attack is very

41:05

politely asking a device to get

41:07

off the network. Yeah. And

41:10

then PCAPs, so when you reconnect to

41:12

a Wi-Fi network, essentially

41:14

your computer and the network have a little

41:16

negotiation and pass a

41:18

bunch of keys back and forth that agree

41:20

that this device should go on the network,

41:22

and that's called the authentication process, which is

41:24

what the PCAP files represent, correct? Yeah,

41:27

yep. Perfect. Okay. And

41:30

you can take those PCAP files, and

41:32

through a different process, you can actually

41:35

dictionary attack or

41:37

brute force the Wi-Fi

41:39

password, correct? Yeah,

41:42

you can use – well,

41:44

there's a bunch of things, but I think we

41:46

use Hashcat for that usually. Yeah, perfect. Okay. I

41:49

just wanted to make sure I was fully aware

41:51

of kind of what the Wi-Fi Marauder

41:54

toolbox does, because you've mentioned it a

41:56

number of times, and I know that there's a lot of boards that

41:58

I see and a lot of extensions. even some standalones

42:01

from Coco that run it. And

42:04

I just wanted to make sure I knew what it was

42:07

before I got one of these beautiful things and plugged it

42:09

into this thing and figured out what kind

42:11

of devious things I can get up to. Yeah,

42:14

so that's basically what Just Call

42:16

Me Coco does is the WiFi

42:18

Marauder stuff. Nice.

42:21

Their devices as well as AWACS

42:23

devices both seem really, really nice.

42:25

The Rabbit, what was the Rabbit

42:27

one you mentioned? So yeah,

42:30

Rabbit Labs, check out Rabbit Labs. I find

42:32

in every search I make for these things

42:34

I always end up on some website that

42:36

I'd never known to exist called Tindy, I

42:38

think it's called Tindy. Is that right? Yeah,

42:41

so he's, yep, tindy.com/storage slash

42:44

T-E-H Rabbit with two Ts and

42:46

two Vs. So

42:48

the, because I think Rabbit makes a

42:50

lot of the infrared, the IR booster

42:52

boards, right? That's Rabbit, Rabbit

42:55

makes the IR booster boards. He was the

42:57

first one to do them. He's

43:00

got a really good IR,

43:02

he's got two of them really. He's got the

43:04

Master Blaster which is, I believe

43:06

12 LEDs. So it's really strong, it

43:08

has a lot of range there. And

43:11

the first one he made was the Death Star IR

43:13

Blaster. And one

43:16

of the things that's really cool about Rabbit Labs, and

43:18

again, all these guys have their own specific style. And

43:21

it's all very different. It's kind of interesting when you look

43:23

at it. And basically

43:27

Rabbit Labs does a lot of really cool screen

43:29

printing and things like that. And

43:33

his stuff has a different vibe to it

43:36

than everybody else's. And then AWOC, again, he

43:38

does like, it's

43:40

hard to explain without showing the different

43:42

things that people are making. Yeah, yeah.

43:45

But they have a very distinctive style.

43:48

AWOC's a musician and a graphic artist, and

43:50

it really comes through in his electronics in

43:52

a lot of ways. Totally. And

43:55

then Rabbit is just a

43:57

hardware dude. So. He

44:00

just makes really good, complicated stuff,

44:03

and then puts fun screen printing and

44:05

stuff on it. And everything's got a

44:08

little bit of a personality. He's got a

44:11

coming out a Minion ESP32 board, which

44:14

looks like one of the Minions. And

44:17

it's just those little things, yeah. He's got a

44:20

Minion Marauder. And it's

44:22

just cool. It's just, he makes cool

44:24

stuff. All these guys make really cool

44:26

stuff. Because the Death Star is an

44:29

IR blaster, right? And it's

44:31

kind of like, I've seen a video of

44:33

it. It's got a glowing light as

44:35

the Death Star cannon when it's powered up and stuff.

44:37

It's just a cool, they are

44:40

very cool little things. Yeah,

44:43

it's a great way of marketing, too, if you

44:45

think about it. Because

44:48

obviously, it looks cool. So people are going to look at

44:50

it, and they're going to want

44:52

it. So yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, the

44:54

AWALK stuff. I've been waiting for

44:56

something to come back in stock. It seems like

44:59

he sells out pretty fast, or they sell out pretty

45:01

fast. I

45:03

would love to order some of their

45:05

products. And I'd love to get one

45:07

of their t-shirts. I love their very

45:09

graffiti artisty DJ. Yeah, I know. His

45:11

t-shirts are awesome. Yeah, and he makes

45:13

those, too. He sells out

45:15

extremely fast. And people don't

45:18

realize that these shops are people.

45:21

Like Rabbit Labs just call me

45:23

Coco AWALK. They're just people. They

45:26

have jobs and families and stuff like

45:28

that. So they can't mass produce 100

45:30

of something. Well,

45:33

actually, Rabbit does. That

45:36

dude's a beast. He makes a lot of stuff. But

45:40

it's also because of the things that he

45:42

does, is set up to do things like

45:44

that. He can batch surface

45:46

mount stuff in an oven. He can

45:49

do that. Most people

45:51

can't. He's got a part picker. He's got

45:53

stuff that nobody has. It's

45:56

prohibitively expensive if you're doing something

45:58

like this. The modules you

46:00

buy are literally just raw circuit boards and

46:02

it seems like most people then 3D print

46:05

custom cases for them. You

46:07

can even download the print files from

46:09

the circuit board makers often. Here's

46:12

the case if you want to print your own case. It

46:15

seems like an ecosystem ripe

46:18

for gadgety people. Like,

46:20

hey, there's a cool gadget here. This

46:23

gadget also requires you to get other gadgets that

46:25

then require you to get a 3D printer to

46:27

print new gadgets. It just seems like a gadget

46:29

ecosystem. I'm not opposed to it. I like

46:31

gadgets. I'm a big gadget guy. Well,

46:34

no, you're absolutely right. Again,

46:36

this is where one of the things that

46:38

happened because of basically these cases, that's

46:42

kind of when I started doing some of

46:44

the 3D printing stuff I was doing. I

46:46

picked up an Ender 3 back

46:48

in like February or something because A, I wanted

46:50

to mess around with 3D printing and B, it

46:52

was a cool backdrop item. I would have it

46:55

printing when I was filming. I

46:57

just thought that was cool. Do it all for the content.

47:00

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I bought a printer

47:02

and I spent some time modding it and messing

47:04

around with that. So I kept

47:06

printing more and more, learning more and more about

47:09

3D printing and putting designs

47:11

on stuff. And

47:13

so I keep posting stuff like that.

47:16

Well, the interesting thing about that was

47:18

that's how I actually got asked

47:20

by Deadmau5 to make him a case. So

47:25

yeah, because he had posted a picture

47:27

of his flipper with a Wi-Fi board

47:29

plugged into it like a couple weeks

47:31

ago. And I

47:33

just ran him, somebody's like, oh, look, hey, Deadmau5's

47:35

got a flipper. So I'm like, oh, I got

47:37

to put a comment on there. So I commented

47:39

on there like, hey, man, if you ever need

47:41

any flipper stuff, he's like, yeah, I've heard about

47:44

you. I've heard good things. And I was like,

47:46

holy crap. So

47:49

then he DMs me and he's asking if

47:52

I could make him a case for it.

47:54

So I'm like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But like,

47:56

yeah, it's the weirdest thing, like one random

47:58

email because I started a YouTube channel

48:00

about flipper zero and now

48:02

I'm printing a case for dead mouse, which I think it

48:04

got delivered today So

48:06

that it's just it's just really weird. But again,

48:09

it just goes to show like this is another

48:11

one of the situations that flipper zero and Just

48:15

the little weird things that you run

48:17

into along the along the way Like

48:19

you'd really never know what that butterfly

48:21

effect is gonna is gonna have so

48:23

the so this tiny little device that

48:25

you probably Kick-started I'm assuming No,

48:28

I didn't you didn't I didn't kick-start

48:30

it. No, I was I was so

48:32

lucky I randomly, I don't

48:34

know if I ran into an ad or what but I

48:38

Know that they were really hard to get and I didn't

48:40

really know much about them Randomly saw an

48:42

ad about it and I saw they were in stock.

48:44

I'm like screw it. I'm gonna buy it Whatever. I

48:46

don't buy things for myself very often anyway, so I'll

48:48

go buy it. Whatever. I don't care Yes,

48:51

so you bought this thing Then

48:53

you started designing circuits free and

48:56

soldering circuit boards Then you started

48:58

writing C and now you're like

49:00

hanging out with deadmau5. That is

49:02

your flipper zero story arc I'm

49:05

not hanging out for say what I've done.

49:07

I talked to him a bunch of times.

49:09

He's actually just a really cool guy It's

49:12

really weird. I've met a bunch of

49:14

people actually just ran into zero day

49:16

yesterday and super

49:19

cool guy, too Is

49:21

this all these people that like actually know

49:24

who I am because of this YouTube channel

49:26

and the YouTube channel Really

49:28

was I was almost bullied into doing

49:30

it anyway, which I thought was interesting because

49:33

originally the only reason why I started doing this was

49:36

If you've if you've done much digging into

49:38

like all the files and stuff You may

49:41

have run into our herd of uber Doritos

49:44

He was like the most

49:46

well-known dude possible in flipper

49:48

world um So

49:50

and he was around in some of the

49:53

discords and stuff, but he had seen My

49:56

tutorial for making animations and he's like hey you

49:58

do a pretty good job of

50:01

writing down tutorials and stuff like that. I've

50:04

got a project I'm involved in with Lab 401, and

50:07

we're making tutorial videos on how to use some of

50:09

these devices. I'd be really happy

50:11

to have you join that. Yeah.

50:15

So that's where I got into making a video for Lab

50:17

401. And

50:20

at that point after that, I decided to start

50:22

making my own stuff. But yeah, basically Uber was

50:24

like, hey, you wanna do this? And he was,

50:27

again, the coolest guy I knew at the time.

50:30

So I'm like, all right, sure, yeah, no problem. And

50:32

yeah, it was because of him I even started doing any

50:34

of this stuff. See, now I just feel

50:36

bad for Uber because he was the coolest guy you

50:38

knew at the time, but now you're hanging out with

50:41

Deadmau5. You know, like Uber's just a regular guy now.

50:44

Uber's a busy dude. I'm friends with him on

50:47

actual Facebook. And yeah, he's a busy dude. He's got a

50:49

lot of stuff going on. So where do you think

50:51

this thing's gonna go next? You know, are there

50:54

any projects that you're aware of, any new functionality

50:56

that you think people are building for it? Do

50:58

you think it's just gonna be kind of, is

51:00

there anybody out there that's really like taking

51:03

it to the next level? Like, is there something that we

51:05

should watch out for? Or like, you

51:07

know, where does it go now? That's

51:10

a really good question, honestly. So I do know

51:12

that there's a new piece of hardware coming out

51:14

called the Flipper Nano. And

51:17

that is basically a

51:19

flipper with less internal functionality and

51:22

two rows of GPIO. So you

51:24

have twice the output. Oh,

51:27

I guess input output. So there will

51:29

definitely be a bit of a paradigm

51:31

shift whenever that goes. Who

51:34

knows if that will be this coming

51:36

year, the year after that, who knows?

51:39

Timeframes for flipper stuff is, you

51:42

don't wanna mess with them, you never know. But

51:44

that's a project coming out. But

51:47

again, the crazy thing about, and this is

51:49

every kind of field or

51:51

every whatever genre of stuff, but someone

51:53

will just show up and be a

51:55

game changer. They'll

51:58

just out of nowhere roll up and do. do

52:00

something, know what he thought was possible, and

52:03

it just unlocks just

52:05

so much potential. Like, it's just, everything all

52:07

of a sudden happens. One

52:11

of the things I've been wondering about this device

52:13

is, you know, is there a dark

52:15

web, some private discords, places like

52:18

that where you can get more,

52:21

how should I put this, aggressive

52:23

applications? Like the, like,

52:26

stealing a car keys, rolling keys, is

52:31

very plausible, there's devices that do it already.

52:33

It's actually not that hard. And

52:35

the flipper probably has most of the functionality, or

52:37

could be extended to have the functionality to do

52:39

it. Is, are

52:42

there places where people build apps that are

52:44

a little bit less, and

52:46

build and share apps that are a little bit less publicly

52:50

accepted? So,

52:52

absolutely. Now,

52:55

I'm not aware of any,

52:57

like, specific place. I'm

53:00

also not the best person to tell

53:02

about stuff like that. Not

53:04

that I'm gonna, like, make a video on it,

53:06

really, but being a little bit

53:08

more higher profile person, I don't

53:10

really, you know, I don't get

53:13

invitations to the dark web as often as I

53:15

used to. You know, but,

53:18

so there are people that write

53:20

scripts. Like, I have scripts right

53:22

now that I won't give out.

53:26

Like, I have a flipper zero ransomware

53:28

script, and I have a key logger

53:30

scripts. So

53:33

there's a bunch of stuff that I am aware of, and

53:35

it's things that I have, because I've used them for videos

53:37

before. But are

53:39

there places out there that, you know, are

53:42

writing codes for stuff? Maybe. Like,

53:44

because I know that Zero Day had

53:46

mentioned on an interview he'd done that he was

53:49

doing some things on his flipper that, at

53:52

the time, weren't really being

53:54

done yet. But, honestly,

53:56

since then we've realized that, I mean, they

53:58

do with the... those scripts have been written.

54:01

So whether or not he had

54:03

those early or wrote them

54:05

himself or whatever, but

54:08

it did imply that some people had

54:10

things that other people did it. Just

54:14

like I have some things that other people don't. And

54:17

other people have things that I don't.

54:19

Well, as an appeal to the community,

54:21

if you're a member of a community

54:23

or discord that builds flipper

54:26

scripts that maybe aren't public, fire

54:28

me a DM, just hit me up. I'd

54:30

be intrigued to know what else is going on under

54:34

the covers. Because when I got this thing

54:37

and when I realized what it was, like

54:39

I thought it was a tool and then

54:42

I realized it was a platform. I

54:44

was like, oh, there's a bunch of

54:46

built-in functions already, but then you have the ability to

54:49

extend it. And then you

54:51

have the ability to essentially custom develop whatever you'd

54:53

like for it. What's cool

54:55

about that idea too is seeing it as a

54:57

platform because also you

54:59

have an incredibly powerful computer in

55:01

your pocket already that can communicate

55:04

with flipper. So as far as

55:06

figuring out the algorithm, your

55:08

phone could probably do that pretty quick. So

55:12

I'm intrigued, I mean, yeah, no, I'm just intrigued to

55:14

see, I'm intrigued

55:16

to know what you don't find on YouTube about

55:18

this thing. You know what I'm saying?

55:21

Absolutely, yeah, I know, I 100% agree. And

55:24

I do look for it. I look for that

55:26

stuff too. I'm obviously on Reddit and all sorts

55:28

of other places. I'm constantly looking for new

55:30

stuff. Again, being who

55:32

I am, it's a little bit easier because people

55:35

reach out to me. So

55:38

someone will just hit me up in the DM and be

55:40

like, yo, I made a payload encryptor or something like that.

55:42

I'm like, oh, that's cool. And that's how I met, that's

55:44

literally how I met Red, who was

55:46

the guy who wrote the ransomware and key logger. And

55:48

yeah, he's just like, hey, I made this one thing.

55:50

And then he was like, hey, do you know anybody

55:52

who has this? And I'm like, nah, I don't know anybody

55:55

who has this. And he's like, well, I do. And I'm

55:57

like, got any more? I

56:00

do. I like that. Sounds like Red's the guy that

56:02

I'd like to meet. Yeah, this

56:04

is a very interesting little

56:06

device. I'm intrigued to,

56:09

I should say, play with it, but I would

56:11

say educate myself more on its functionality and what

56:13

can be done and how I can extend it,

56:15

or it can be extended to do

56:18

different things because it's coming

56:20

from the software world. You know, I'm familiar

56:22

with all kinds of software vulnerabilities and code

56:25

problems and things like that, but I've never

56:27

really been into the hardware side, and this

56:29

has definitely piqued my interest. Aside

56:32

from emulating circuit designs that have been given

56:34

to me to make musical instruments

56:37

often, I've never really built

56:39

anything, and now I have this desire to

56:41

build a board, and I'm not

56:43

sure what I wanted to do yet. Yeah,

56:46

and I mean, you can do pretty much,

56:48

you can do a lot of stuff. And

56:50

if you're a code guy, definitely check out

56:52

Code All Night. I'm a really, really cool

56:54

guy named Derek Jamison. He

56:57

is a phenomenal coder. I think he used to

56:59

work for Microsoft. Don't quote me on that, but

57:01

a really, really ridiculously,

57:04

like, painfully smart dude.

57:07

And yeah, he writes code and apps

57:09

and stuff like that. So if you're

57:11

interested in software side and possibly coding

57:14

stuff, he's a great resource for that

57:16

as well. I'm curious

57:19

as a content creator, I watched

57:22

your video on the ransomware stuff

57:25

that I can do, I'll watch your stuff on hacking

57:27

Wi-Fi passwords. In the

57:29

ransomware episode, there's this really interesting

57:31

moment where you blur

57:33

the payload, essentially. And you

57:35

flat out say, I'm doing this so that

57:37

a teenager doesn't get themselves arrested. And

57:40

it's like a fellow content creator that

57:43

makes stuff about cybersecurity. Like,

57:46

how do you navigate that line between not

57:48

wanting to empower a person to maybe mess

57:51

their life up, but wanting to put this

57:53

information out there and wanting to share it with curious,

57:55

interested people and wanting to push the community forward? How

57:57

do you balance those two things? It's

58:00

tricky because

58:03

obviously doing

58:05

things like the offing Wi-Fi cameras,

58:08

which was literally the first thing I ever

58:10

published, it wasn't a picture of an animation.

58:12

My very first TikTok, because I tried to

58:14

start TikTok as a platform, which is a

58:16

silly thing you do, but

58:18

my first video was literally showing me

58:20

disabling my video camera, my surveillance cameras.

58:23

And yeah,

58:26

trying to figure out where the tipping point is.

58:29

Now hacking Wi-Fi stuff,

58:31

that's really, really easy information

58:34

to find. So

58:36

with five seconds for the work, you can find

58:38

somewhere else to get that information. So if

58:41

I'm another person doing a video on how to

58:43

do it, who cares, right? So

58:46

where I draw the line is

58:49

handing someone a weapon. And

58:52

that's kind of the way I saw that video.

58:55

And especially with bad USB, now

58:58

if anybody doesn't know what bad USB is, Flipper

59:01

has the functionality effectively of like a rubber ducky.

59:03

So what it will do is you

59:05

plug in your Flipper to a

59:07

computer and you can run a

59:09

script through PowerShell or whatever. You can basically

59:12

use it as a keyboard and

59:14

you can do code injection. So what that

59:16

means is if I plug my

59:18

Flipper into something, I can run a code that

59:21

is on my Flipper. The

59:23

problem with that is it's

59:25

very, very easy to do. And

59:28

when things are too easy to do, people

59:30

do them without knowing why they're

59:33

doing them or what might happen. So

59:35

as an example, I've seen

59:38

a bunch of examples, one of which was

59:41

somebody almost got auto banned in

59:43

my Discord by the bot because

59:45

they ran a script that typed

59:47

in every single line from a

59:49

B movie. Every

59:53

like half second. So they got flood

59:55

spammed and they got kicked for it.

59:58

But Flipper's zero. can

1:00:00

be used to, you know, infect your

1:00:03

computer with with ransomware and you

1:00:05

know, just things to be aware of

1:00:07

like, yeah, these things do exist and

1:00:10

since I have an audience that, you

1:00:12

know, watch these things about bad USB

1:00:14

and stuff, it's a good idea

1:00:16

to at least spread some awareness about that and

1:00:18

I did, I thought it was kind of a cool thing. But

1:00:21

again, I'm not gonna hand somebody the tool to

1:00:24

completely screw up somebody's computer. Sure,

1:00:27

that makes sense. I guess, minder point

1:00:29

of clarification, when you say that

1:00:32

person in your Discord posted B-movie

1:00:34

quotes, are you saying they

1:00:36

posted quotes from a low-budget film or from

1:00:38

the 2007 animated

1:00:40

comedy B-movies starring Jerry Seinfeld? It was

1:00:42

in fact the 2000s era B-movie

1:00:46

with hosted, yeah with Jerry Seinfeld in fact,

1:00:48

yeah. Sure. Where he plays a B trying

1:00:51

to sue humanity for how they treated B's.

1:00:53

I'm familiar. I just want to confirm

1:00:55

that. Yes, yes, every single

1:00:57

line of that movie in order, yeah,

1:00:59

posted in Discord and yeah, that was, that

1:01:01

was, it was fun and I think the person that did

1:01:03

that, they were actually in voice chat at the time and

1:01:06

you could actively hear them freaking out, which was

1:01:08

very funny. Sure. Oh,

1:01:10

that's great. I mean, that's kind

1:01:12

of tangentially connects to the one other

1:01:14

big question I had which is like

1:01:16

kind of to do with internet clout

1:01:18

and flipper zero. I

1:01:21

watched some of your I watched flipper

1:01:23

zero TikToks so you don't have to

1:01:25

videos quality content just to pass

1:01:27

on my compliments. But

1:01:29

so many of those are about taking this device that can

1:01:31

do a ton

1:01:34

of stuff. It functions as a platform to do

1:01:36

even more stuff and a lot of the TikTok

1:01:38

content is about lying about what it can do,

1:01:40

which I found interesting. It's about like watch

1:01:42

me tap a credit card on it and boom I have

1:01:44

the credit card it can use it. It's like, well, for

1:01:46

all the things that can do you managed to find a

1:01:49

couple things that didn't and are now lying about it on

1:01:51

TikTok. Why do you think it

1:01:53

became the like, I don't know, like

1:01:55

center of a little bit of an internet clout

1:01:57

trend? Where in a

1:01:59

way that hacking devices really haven't done

1:02:01

before. It

1:02:04

was very interesting seeing how that

1:02:06

was. And actually I specifically picked

1:02:08

a lot of the videos in

1:02:10

the TikTok one that were real.

1:02:12

Like some of the things that I showed off were real. I

1:02:16

featured a couple with, again, I

1:02:18

Am Jacoby and Taco Cat, I believe. So

1:02:21

some of those things were real. But

1:02:23

especially in the beginning. In the beginning it was bad.

1:02:25

It was really bad, honestly. They

1:02:27

showed some really sketchy things. One

1:02:30

of the videos that I couldn't find that I

1:02:32

wanted to feature in that video because I thought

1:02:34

I really needed to talk about it. But basically

1:02:36

some dude with a flipper zero effectively

1:02:39

tries to show that he's stealing

1:02:41

a card from somebody and then

1:02:43

following them into a building. And

1:02:47

you can kind of do that by the way he was

1:02:49

doing it, wasn't working at all. And he was like, pushed

1:02:51

it past the bag. But

1:02:53

what was going on is

1:02:55

people love sensationalism. They

1:02:58

wanna think that this is a Sonic screwdriver. And

1:03:01

they literally, like, so when they see

1:03:03

something like that they immediately believe it

1:03:05

because it's the internet. And everything on

1:03:07

the internet must be real. I don't

1:03:09

know why people believe anything on the

1:03:11

internet. But yeah, so

1:03:13

that kind of stuff went viral.

1:03:16

And that's what people started thinking

1:03:18

they were getting when they bought

1:03:20

flippers. So

1:03:22

I actually kind of cashed in on that

1:03:24

idea because if I'm doing tutorials and somebody

1:03:26

bought one of these, specifically trying to do

1:03:28

this, then maybe they'll find my channel

1:03:30

and watch my stuff. But the

1:03:33

flip side of that is why I

1:03:35

made an entire video and actually spent

1:03:37

a good amount of time with a

1:03:40

guy named Betsy who's a pretty

1:03:43

well-known guy as far as

1:03:45

NFC goes. He

1:03:48

spent a lot of time explaining how NFC

1:03:50

and stuff works. But that's why I made

1:03:52

a video specifically saying why flipper zero can't

1:03:54

steal your credit cards. Because

1:03:57

that was one of the most common things that I

1:03:59

had seen. showing how

1:04:01

they could use their flipper to steal

1:04:03

credit cards and it's just you can't do it it

1:04:05

can't be done at

1:04:07

least not with a any like normal

1:04:09

style of credit card but

1:04:12

yeah there's all there was all an awful lot of that

1:04:14

and I mean it

1:04:17

was it was it was you know getting clicks

1:04:19

was getting views I had never

1:04:21

ever gotten anywhere near any

1:04:23

of those like you know million view

1:04:25

videos even showing like the the off

1:04:27

a Wi-Fi cameras and that was real

1:04:29

I really did that but it

1:04:32

never really had the same appeal as

1:04:35

somebody you know fake using a credit

1:04:37

card or faking using it to access

1:04:39

something that you definitely couldn't but yeah

1:04:41

those those videos went crazy especially earlier

1:04:44

on cloud chasing with flipper zeros on

1:04:46

a new sentence my last question has to

1:04:48

do something you said earlier we

1:04:51

were talking about you know feeling safe taking this

1:04:53

thing and traveling with it you brought up Defcon

1:04:55

which is basically thousands of these

1:04:57

things converging on one city so it's obviously

1:04:59

okay but you made reference to Brazil

1:05:02

you said I probably wouldn't take it to Brazil so

1:05:05

I'm curious what happened in Brazil

1:05:08

and broadly do you think

1:05:10

there's going to be I don't know more

1:05:12

of a legal response to this thing as it

1:05:14

becomes more famous more popular on the internet and

1:05:16

people construe and misconstrue what

1:05:18

it can do do you think

1:05:20

there will be more legal fallout essentially so

1:05:23

I think at this point at

1:05:25

least for most places it's we're

1:05:27

pretty much over it um

1:05:30

basically flipper devices are not certified in

1:05:32

Brazil they're not allowed in Brazil

1:05:35

huh yeah and probably mostly from

1:05:37

I don't know I'm going to

1:05:39

speculate and say auto theft because

1:05:42

now this is a very valid point and

1:05:44

somebody had pointed out before because I

1:05:47

want to say hacky stuff on YouTube channel

1:05:49

I believe he's out of the Philippines but

1:05:52

he pointed out that where he

1:05:54

was located a lot of vehicles

1:05:57

have aftermarket to the century The

1:06:00

aftermarket ones, a lot of them don't

1:06:02

use rolling codes. So you actually can

1:06:04

access cards with those. So

1:06:09

certain places got a little bit concerned

1:06:11

about it. And

1:06:13

I mean, again, even Amazon blocked the sales of

1:06:15

them because they thought they were credit card scammers,

1:06:18

which is the one thing it can't do. It

1:06:21

can't do a lot of things, but it's one of the things it can't do.

1:06:24

So again, super interesting.

1:06:27

And yeah, it's... I

1:06:30

don't see it getting banned anywhere else at

1:06:32

this point because, again, it's not

1:06:34

that damage is done, but at this

1:06:37

point, you can pretty much

1:06:39

figure out what it does and doesn't do. I

1:06:41

mean, hell, if you're an entire country, you have

1:06:43

the time to watch my videos. Just

1:06:45

find out what it does first. Watch

1:06:50

Talking Sask, watch Before You Pass Any Legislation.

1:06:52

Yeah, just give me a few views. You

1:06:55

can skip the ad. It's fine. It's fine.

1:06:58

Just drop a DM. Work for

1:07:00

us. Yeah, exactly. Work for Deadmau5, work for

1:07:02

us. Hit them up. Thank you

1:07:04

for us sitting down and sharing with us. I think that's everything I wanted

1:07:06

to ask. Scott, you got anything else? No, no. I

1:07:09

think the first hour of intense

1:07:11

tech chatter was mostly what I

1:07:13

was looking for. So make up

1:07:16

good. And definitely thanks

1:07:18

for having me. It's been fun. I

1:07:21

apologize. This is my first actual

1:07:23

long-form podcast. Every

1:07:27

time I've done things like this, it's been tricky. I

1:07:29

did a video with David Bombal. I

1:07:32

recorded more videos. But

1:07:34

that was three hours of doing things

1:07:37

live. I'm not used to working live.

1:07:41

And I do a decent amount of

1:07:43

post-production. So again,

1:07:46

first time being actually on a podcast. But

1:07:48

it's been fun. It's just something

1:07:50

I've done before. So I'm getting used

1:07:53

to the format. No, no. Well, you

1:07:55

crushed it. We appreciate having you. Five

1:07:57

stars. Five stars for talking to us. Much

1:08:01

appreciate you guys. Amen.

1:08:03

Well, thanks again for coming on and maybe

1:08:05

we'll talk again in the future.