0:00

In Las Vegas, the house always wins, but

0:02

this past month, the security department

0:05

did not.

0:08

That's my opening line. That's my way into

0:10

this story. I

0:13

would actually say that the shareholders

0:16

also lost quite substantially. Yeah,

0:18

they didn't do so hot either on this one. This

0:21

chat episode of Hacked, we are talking about the recent

0:23

twin attacks of two of the biggest

0:25

casino companies in Las Vegas. What

0:28

we know so far about the hacks that happened this

0:30

past month against MGM and

0:33

Caesars. Scott, me,

0:35

you just very, very

0:38

recently, Sony had to

0:40

come forth and say that they have again

0:42

been breached. Not sure if it's related.

0:44

This hack is still pretty new as of recording,

0:47

but definitely something I want to talk

0:49

about. And I want to talk about, oh,

0:51

I've got, we've got a couple of things to talk about.

0:54

But I would like to talk about what I'm

0:56

guessing is probably going to be the new reality

0:58

TV show of 2023

1:00

that everyone's going to be talking about. The

1:03

Crypto Shark Tank Killer Whales.

1:06

I've been shopping my pitch

1:08

for this. Getting ready. Getting ready

1:10

to go. Yeah. Yeah. Dear

1:12

Killer Whales, I have a project to tell you. Yeah, no,

1:15

I can see it. I have some ideas for this show. I

1:17

want to do it. All

1:19

that and more in this chatty episode

1:21

of

1:23

Hacks. How

1:25

are you doing, Scott? I'm good.

1:27

Yeah, I'm good. How are you doing?

1:35

Doing

1:41

good. I'm enjoying the, we're in the,

1:43

where I live, we're in the 72 hours of fall. So

1:48

it is cooling, very

1:50

beautiful, lots of rainbowy leaves,

1:53

gradients on the trees.

1:54

So trying to enjoy the last

1:57

little bits of weather

1:59

that isn't. killing you the second you leave your house.

2:05

Sure, you're talking about the four days, give

2:07

or take, where stuff is orange before the six

2:09

months where it's just white out. I'm

2:14

happy to announce the seven months of rain set

2:16

in over this past weekend. Yes,

2:19

that's true. You were into the

2:21

slumbers of British depression. I

2:25

do not admit it. I really am. It

2:27

hits so abruptly. I

2:29

went from shorts a week ago to

2:31

full blown Pacific

2:34

Coast rain gear

2:36

jackets and bloodstones. Yeah, you got

2:38

it. Nice. So I'm

2:40

just staring at a sun lamp from

2:42

about six inches away with my eyes held

2:44

open like the Clockwork Orange guy just trying

2:46

to beam vitamin D

2:49

into my skull. Well, I think under

2:51

that rain jacket, something that would look exceptional

2:53

is one of the new hacked hoodies that

2:56

are coming very, very soon. Very, very

2:58

soon. I'm actually just waiting

3:01

for samples right now. So

3:03

we've got the merch store set up. The products

3:05

have been set up. I just ordered a few things to make

3:07

sure that it's not bad.

3:10

And so we're just waiting for the samples and the shop

3:12

will be live very soon. I

3:15

think we are coming up on a calendar

3:17

year since we said we were going to put it up. So

3:20

goodbye us. They told us that no one

3:22

could get an enamel mug made

3:24

in less than a year and they were right.

3:27

It's not possible. But we've

3:30

finally done it. We've

3:32

got hats. We've got hats of various

3:34

types. I'm putting a

3:36

controversial product in the store. You're a

3:38

bucket. Putting a controversial hat in the store

3:41

that I think is going to be on the comeback soon that

3:44

you think. I'm not going to say what it is, but I think

3:46

if you imagine seeing as

3:48

fashion is cyclical, something that was

3:50

in style 25 years ago, 28

3:52

years ago, I feel like it's got to make a

3:56

comeback. I feel like it's

3:58

coming back. one of those in the store

4:01

and we'll see, we'll see. The analytics

4:03

will tell us whether it's on the come

4:05

up or not. I'm so intrigued. You

4:07

said old timey hat and you said 20 years

4:09

ago, which is not what I'm picturing, but I was

4:11

picturing immediately like a Peaky Blinders

4:13

cap, which just doesn't match

4:16

with the sort of techie hack things.

4:18

Paper boy hats. Little newsboy

4:20

caps. Yeah, totally. I do like a newsboy

4:23

cap. Don't wear them. They don't suit me, but I do

4:25

like them. I find a daily aesthetic.

4:28

No, I bring too much newsboy

4:30

energy just when I wake up

4:32

in the morning. Like if I then add a newsboy

4:35

cap, it's no, I can't

4:37

pull it off. I can't rock. I feel like the long Gore-Tex

4:40

trench, you know, the Blundies,

4:42

I feel like the newsboy cap could fly

4:44

in that world. Yeah,

4:47

maybe. I said

4:50

maybe like I agreed, but I didn't. I'm

4:53

not sure. I do really want to talk

4:55

about last, the

4:58

last episode, the one that I missed your

5:01

interview. I thought it was great. But I think

5:03

before we jump into that, we should maybe

5:07

thank some patrons. I think that we should probably

5:09

thank some of our new patrons at hackedpodcast.com.

5:12

A really fantastic way to support

5:15

the show. Absolutely.

5:17

I would like to thank Heather Scott.

5:19

Thank you very much. You know what?

5:21

I too would like to thank Heather Scott

5:24

and Chris Vaughn. As

5:26

I conjure the list in front of me, I'd like to just

5:29

double down on thanking our dear

5:31

friends Heather and Chris. Okay.

5:34

Well then also we should direct

5:36

that thanks to Rachel Jess

5:39

and Mikhail Okshkowsky.

5:44

Mikhail Okshkowsky and Rachel Jess.

5:46

Thank you so much. Okay. We're double

5:48

dipping this whole thing. Rachel. Okay.

5:51

Let's do it. Mikhail. Thank you. I

5:54

don't know if you've seen the top of this list, but the last

5:56

one is going to be a trial for you.

8:00

somebody that I'd get along with. I think you

8:02

would. Yeah. He was an identical

8:04

and nerdy girlfriend. He was all

8:06

I look for in a podcast interview partner. You

8:09

know? You

8:11

and him, we're gonna have to link you two up. Yeah, he was

8:13

a really nice dude. He made time to talk

8:15

with us. He's done a lot of interviews about this,

8:19

which is always interesting to sit down with someone who has been

8:21

able to talk through something. And

8:23

he's still really engaged in it. Like

8:25

he's finding fun new ways to think about it. He's

8:28

an interesting guy. Unique intersection

8:31

of tech,

8:32

law,

8:33

and a really passionate creator and consumer

8:35

of the arts. Cool guy. Interesting story.

8:38

And like we talked about in the episode, it

8:41

is fun to imagine, or interesting to imagine,

8:44

what a less altruistic person with the same

8:46

idea Damien had might have done with this

8:49

idea. And kind of just being thankful that it

8:51

was Damien and his buddy Noah that cooked it up.

8:55

One of the things I found interesting when he was talking about

8:58

the connection to Spotify and

9:00

looking at cataloging

9:02

songs based on the melodies that were in use. There's

9:05

a, and it was I think a question that you asked him

9:07

that brought him into that realm. Talking

9:10

about like looking at and evaluating

9:13

melodies and using AI to predict what will

9:15

be good. Sure. There's

9:18

actually years and years and

9:20

years ago, I read kind of like a white paper

9:22

from this group called

9:24

Hook Theory. And it was kind of in

9:27

a similar thing where they'd taken like

9:30

almost all the pop songs they could get

9:32

their hands on and essentially cataloged

9:34

and archived their chord progressions

9:37

and melodies. Oh, I remember

9:39

this. Yeah. I've been to this

9:41

before. This is really cool. Yeah, so they built this entire,

9:45

when I first saw it, it was literally like a white

9:47

paper that they had written, but now there's like software

9:49

and they have this entire suite of

9:52

things. But you can be like, I

9:54

want the first note of my

9:56

progression to be an F sharp. It'll

9:59

be like. 76% of

10:01

the time this is followed by a C

10:04

or like, you know, it'll kind of give you these predictive

10:06

measures and then it'll show you what

10:08

pop songs kind of

10:12

were constructed using the same mathematical

10:14

process. So anyway, very cool,

10:16

very cool little add-on. Not sure

10:19

if it relates, but it'd be interesting

10:21

to look at taking their melodies

10:23

and running them through that and it'd

10:25

be another interesting way to use the data and marry

10:27

it up. But anyway, just

10:30

a cool tidbit that I would have thrown in had I been

10:32

there. Yeah, I think it's super related

10:35

and it would be cool to almost like take the

10:37

data set that they created and cross-reference

10:40

it against what Hook Theory knows about popular

10:42

songs and see, okay, well a lot of

10:44

popular songs would go from a C

10:46

to a G minor. How many

10:49

times does that transition take place inside

10:51

of this data set? It would

10:53

also be cool to build the antithesis

10:56

sets or the anti-set of that, take all the bad

10:58

songs that are popular, catalog

11:01

them and then construct

11:04

the anti-hook theory of being

11:06

like, if you started

11:08

this or this, definitely

11:11

don't use this. These

11:13

songs are bad. No,

11:15

it's interesting. Very cool interview. A

11:18

few things come to mind. Thank you, man. I appreciate

11:20

that. Our next fun interview, we won't

11:22

spoil it, but all three of us, you,

11:24

me and the subject, are all going to be there and I think

11:26

people are going to really enjoy it. Yeah, let's hope.

11:29

It's the last thing I want to say about this and

11:31

it's just because you brought up Hook Theory. So

11:33

I've been using chat GPT for music

11:37

and

11:38

it's pretty good. Say you're writing a

11:40

piece of music and you're like, okay, I'm going from

11:42

A major up to

11:45

C sharp minor down to F sharp

11:47

minor. Generate me a couple options

11:49

for a next chord to go to if I wanted to do

11:52

a country shuffle turnaround style thing. You

11:54

can give it that sort of natural language prompting

11:57

and it's really good at helping you figure out what the next chord is. Really?

12:00

It's pretty good at it. Yeah, it has and it it

12:03

it seems to understand what it's talking

12:06

about. It's not like when you ask it to do math and

12:08

it's like I'm pretty confident this is the number and

12:10

you realize I don't think you know what numbers

12:12

are. It's not doing that. It is

12:14

scraped to the right data set to be able to answer some

12:17

of these questions. But the thought I

12:19

had was it can write

12:21

music for me to

12:23

then play. It can only write out text.

12:26

The thought I had was could

12:29

I get it to play music? Is

12:31

there a way to wire chat GPT

12:33

together so that it could produce

12:36

something that I could listen to? So

12:39

that should be very easy. You just be

12:41

pumping out MIDI. So chat

12:43

GPT can't produce MIDI files but

12:45

it can create event lists

12:48

which are a plaintext version of the information

12:51

that is stored inside of a MIDI file. You

12:53

know I'm talking about where it says at this moment turned this

12:55

yeah yeah yeah yeah so

12:57

what I had it do open gate close exactly

13:00

I went to Jordan's

13:03

first programming exercise I

13:06

using chat GPT installed

13:08

a little MIDI library for Python and

13:10

I had it write a little Python script to convert

13:13

event lists into MIDI files

13:15

then I created a prompt to have

13:18

it take whatever musical prompt I've given

13:20

it and convert it into one of these event lists

13:22

which I then run through the Python script which kicks out

13:24

a MIDI file which I brought into Logic and

13:27

I had it play I had

13:29

a natural language thing

13:32

play some piano chords and it worked. Wow

13:35

was it good? No it sounded like shit. It

13:39

wasn't very good at all. So

13:41

you and I both know that music

13:44

is math. Yeah. We both know that

13:46

chat GPT is bad at math. We

13:49

can then infer that chat GPT is

13:51

bad at music. You know what it

13:53

is it's pretty good at

13:57

it's okay at writing music it's atrocious

13:59

at playing.

13:59

music. The

14:01

second I asked it to play it was like you

14:03

want these chords played rapidly then

14:05

like one two three four it's like no I'll

14:07

slow it down you

14:09

know give me four beats between the chord transitions

14:12

and it just I don't know it had no soul

14:14

the the MIDI it was kicking out had no

14:17

soul so we've got a ways to go on that but

14:19

it was pretty fun experiment. Okay so so

14:21

we can fix chat GPT MIDI

14:23

the Jordan Blumen project by giving chat

14:26

GPT soul we have to train

14:28

it what soul is. I should

14:31

give it that prompt define what is soul

14:33

in regards to music and then implement that in

14:36

a generation of my MIDI please. Honestly

14:38

you should see some of these prompts we should move on but

14:40

some of the prompts I was giving it once I had gotten

14:43

the thing stitched together but it was churning out

14:45

really really bad piano performances

14:47

I was like I was really

14:49

I was like a director trying to coax the performance

14:52

out of an actor like no you just

14:54

slow down it's soulful I want you to think

14:56

about your relationship with this person I was just

14:58

trying to get something out of it and it

15:00

couldn't it couldn't do it it couldn't

15:03

do it. Imagine imagine

15:05

you're a teenage girl in love just

15:07

experienced your first heartbreak we're

15:10

gonna take that energy and apply

15:12

it to this chord progression exactly and

15:14

it's like do you mean bong no I

15:16

didn't mean bong. It

15:19

did work but we'll check in

15:21

in six months I'll see if the event

15:23

lists it kicks out or any better than

15:26

the ones that it was giving me. I think

15:29

we should give you some commendations you

15:31

did your first program anything I did

15:34

wrote a bit of Python you

15:36

installed an external library and used

15:38

it in your Python you probably

15:41

took input from a command line

15:44

very good I'm impressed I

15:46

try I really appreciate that it was

15:48

such a small deal none

15:51

you know it's just such a it doesn't matter

15:53

at all that I brought it up on my podcast

15:55

for everyone to hear about it. Did

15:57

you have to part? like

16:00

the open text, like the event list.

16:07

I didn't have to parse the event list, though probably

16:09

I could have gotten better results if I did. But yeah, I had

16:11

to grab the event list as text and bring

16:13

it into the Python script

16:16

every single time I was doing this. There's essentially a

16:18

little area where I pop that in. You

16:21

had an open variable that was the event

16:23

list. There's

16:26

a better way to do it than that. In

16:31

week two of Jordan's programming thing, you can open

16:33

an external file and

16:35

read the contents in. Oh, dang. Okay, next up. We'll

16:41

execute three more weeks of Python tutorials and then we'll get back to everybody

16:43

that listens to this podcast about

16:46

how you're coming as a junior programmer. Somebody

16:52

must have written an API into chatgbt so

17:00

you wouldn't even need to give it prompts. You could put the prompts

17:02

inside of the Python file or type them into the command line as you're generating

17:04

it. And

17:08

then you probably wouldn't even have to bring the

17:10

MIDI into, I believe you can play, do

17:14

you remember original

17:16

music on the internet? This might be before your

17:18

time. But people would input MIDI

17:20

and it would essentially be, you'd put

17:23

a MIDI file on your Geocities page and

17:26

it would make like bings and bongs and stuff.

17:31

So I wonder if you could actually put Python into

17:33

auto-playing it exactly. Scrolling,

17:36

claiming text and auto-loading MIDI. Yeah,

17:41

there's a reason that didn't come back during the web

17:43

design nostalgia little wave that we're in right now. No,

17:46

honestly, I mean, you bring up a good point. I

17:49

think this whole thing, about

17:51

a week after I did this, I was fiddling around

17:53

in chatgbt and I was getting some new plugins installed.

17:56

You have chatgbt4. You can run it in the chat. plug-ins,

18:00

they've gotten quite good. Someone's

18:05

just going to make this into a plug-in. This

18:10

whole still be work around, they're

18:12

just going to figure out a way to let it produce MIDI files. This

18:15

is like a plug-in ready type thing. It'd be really,

18:17

really easy. Honestly,

18:20

it sounds like Dolly 3, the

18:23

image generation also created by OpenAI, and

18:25

it's going to be like a 4D 4D 4D 4D 4D

18:27

in the coming weeks. It

18:30

sort of just paints a world where you can do natural

18:32

language prompts to create images, and

18:35

inevitably you'll be able to do natural language prompts to create audio

18:37

files, eventually

18:40

video files. They want to be the big dog. They're

18:45

probably going to weave it all into that system, and anything they don't

18:47

will become as

18:50

soon as possible. Okay,

18:55

Vegas. Let's talk about Vegas. Jordan,

19:00

what do you think about Vegas? Do you love Vegas? Do you

19:02

hate Vegas? I've

19:05

never been to Vegas as an adult. I have memories of going

19:07

as a little kid on a family trip,

19:11

but I've never had the full Las Vegas

19:13

experience. How about you, Scott? I've

19:20

never had

19:23

the Bachelor party, the Vegas Bachelor party. I

19:25

recently went to Vegas. I hadn't been there since I was a

19:27

child, on

19:30

the same kind of thing, going to see the Grand Canyon, etc.,

19:32

etc., and just flew in and out of Vegas. But

19:35

I loved it because I was a little skater rat and there

19:37

were plenty of places to skateboard, but

19:42

I went back as an adult two years ago.

19:45

Some friends that

19:47

got married in COVID had no wedding, no Bachelor

19:49

party, no Stag party, so we went Vegas to them for a weekend

19:51

away and had a terrible time. Definitely

19:55

something I'm a

19:57

Vegas type. I

20:00

do like gambling, which

20:03

should mean that I love Vegas, but it's just kind

20:06

of like a, let's

20:09

just say that the vibe is not my vibe down

20:11

there. Didn't have

20:13

a terrible time, had a lovely time with friends and ate some

20:15

good food and stuff like that, but everything's

20:17

very opulent, very over the top. And

20:20

then you leave the strip and

20:22

it's very much not like that. And it's still

20:24

kind of like seedy and dirty. I don't

20:26

know, didn't love Vegas. Let's just say that. No

20:30

reasons to go back. It's one of those places where

20:32

I know I'm gonna have a strong reaction

20:34

to it in one of two directions. I'm

20:36

either gonna have the intuitive one, which is that the

20:38

city exists in defiance of God's will

20:41

in the middle of the desert. Everything

20:43

costs as a fortune and I'm not having a good time.

20:46

Or it might like twist all

20:48

the way back around to being like, this is the

20:50

tackiest thing I've ever seen and it rules.

20:53

Like, I don't know which of the two it's gonna be, but

20:55

it's one of the two. Not to call Vegas

20:58

tacky, it might be a lovely city. When you're

21:00

under the baby Eiffel Tower. Yeah,

21:03

it's definitely got a thing. Like

21:06

if you're like a conference,

21:08

like Defton or something, like great place

21:10

to have it because you're probably not

21:13

leaving a confined area.

21:16

Sure. Hanging out with a bunch of people, lots

21:18

of services, lots of restaurants, lots of

21:20

things to do, there's always things to do,

21:22

which I think would be the best thing. I think we gotta

21:24

check out Defton next year. Is that the vibe of

21:26

it? Yeah, the like

21:29

thousands of drunk college people,

21:33

and I don't know, it's an

21:35

interesting place. Let's just say that, it's an interesting

21:38

place. Interesting place. Anyway,

21:41

what else happens in Vegas? Well, 20

21:45

minutes deep into the cybersecurity show, some

21:47

stuff got hacked. This past

21:50

month, Las Vegas was the epicenter of

21:52

a significant cyber attack targeting

21:54

two of the most prominent casino chains. You've

21:57

heard of them, MGM resorts and Caesars.

22:00

Did you happen to say it either of those two, Scott? I

22:03

did. I think I did actually say

22:05

at an MGM property because that's

22:07

the thing is like these are such massive

22:10

consortiums that they own so

22:12

much. Because I know this hack

22:14

also affected their,

22:18

what's the little part in China? The

22:20

little Las Vegas of China? Why can I not remember?

22:23

Oh, Macau. Macau also affected their

22:25

Macau properties. I think

22:27

it completely turned off most of

22:30

their casino operations globally. Yeah,

22:33

you got it. Macau, there I have been.

22:35

Very cool place. You've been to Macau.

22:37

As you said,

22:38

I have been to Macau. Yeah, I made the trip when my

22:41

partner and I were in Hong Kong. We kicked it over there.

22:43

It's like a crazy bridge.

22:45

It's really cool. Very

22:47

cool place. I think

22:49

different than Vegas in a lot of ways, but similar

22:52

in some other ways. In

22:55

any case, yeah, so as you said,

22:57

MGM isn't one resort. The

23:00

affected properties here, the whole

23:02

line that they have, Mandalay Bay, Bellagio, Aria,

23:05

bunch of different places. It's

23:07

worth talking about the differences between these

23:10

two hacks. We're going

23:12

to get to Caesars. Suffice it to say

23:14

it was milder. The MGM

23:16

resort hack was not

23:18

just a data leak like we've talked about

23:21

here before. This was a real physical

23:23

infrastructure compromise. Throughout

23:26

the casinos themselves, just the basic

23:28

functions of the building were being interrupted. Key

23:30

cards were not opening doors into rooms.

23:33

Slot machines were going dark. ATMs were

23:35

malfunctioning. The credit infrastructure

23:37

for things like food and beverages throughout the resorts,

23:40

those weren't working. There's been

23:42

a slow recovery, but early, I think

23:44

as of time of this recording, some of those systems

23:47

still are technically offline.

23:50

The name of the

23:51

hacker group

23:53

I find interesting, Scattered

23:55

Spider. That's the name, right? That's

23:58

who's being implicated. being behind it. Best

24:31

estimates are that they're between the ages of 19 and 22,

24:34

probably based in the US or the UK,

24:36

which is pretty novel for these groups

24:39

across a couple of different axes. And

24:42

the last big important thing is that they're

24:44

voice fishing people.

24:45

They

24:46

work with another group called ALPHV.

24:49

I guess Alpha V you might call that. Who

24:52

is providing the ransomware as a service that scattered

24:54

spider seems to

24:56

have been weighed in this hack against MGM. But

25:08

their role in it was they

25:10

did the calls. Remember we're talking about some

25:12

of the lapses hacks.

25:15

This one

25:17

was similar-ish

25:21

in the sense that right at the beginning

25:23

of the first thing I read about this hack,

25:26

Okta got mentioned. And I was

25:28

like, oh, is this another Okta related

25:31

one? Because I remember that was coming through. And

25:33

I was like, so then Okta eventually

25:36

came out and said, yes, we were

25:39

related in this. There were compromised

25:41

Okta servers. And

25:43

apparently they were sniffing, they had

25:45

set up sniffers and stuff on those servers.

25:48

And we're actually using them

25:51

to expand their access

25:53

into the domain. Interesting.

25:57

I feel bad for Okta because

25:59

I feel like... The last

26:02

bunch of big hacks like this that I've read

26:04

about, they've been not implicated,

26:06

but their name is in the credit

26:09

role. For

26:12

somebody who makes cybersecurity software

26:15

and two-factor authentication stuff, when major

26:19

hacks come out and you're getting talked

26:21

about as being an origin point or

26:24

something like that for an attack vector, it's bad. I

26:27

feel bad for them. Everything

26:32

that I've heard, this happens

26:34

to be more of a social engineering. They've

26:37

got a bunch of access, use that access to gain

26:39

more access, etc. Just

26:42

another point of interest that they're in the credit

26:45

role for this hack. It's

26:47

tough. It's sort of like market share invites a law of large numbers

26:49

problem. Exactly.

26:55

I've learned you all of this market share, which just means

26:57

eventually you're

27:00

going to be involved in some compromises. It's

27:05

the sharp edge of success.

27:10

As you said, it looks like they

27:12

scattered spider collaborating with Alpha. I

27:15

gained access to MGM's internal systems on

27:17

September 11, 2023. It

27:20

looks like they posed as an employee that they

27:22

found on LinkedIn and they were able to get that toehold and

27:28

basically just turned

27:30

the whole operation off. You brought

27:32

this up earlier. There's

27:35

pretty severe financial fallout. There's

27:38

two different prongs to this. The

27:41

first one is just sort of the basic operations of the

27:43

casino. It's

27:45

tricky to get the exact numbers right, and we'll

27:47

talk about why in a little bit, but Insider Coverage

27:49

spoke with a professor at the

27:51

University of Nevada, who said that the $1.5

27:53

million a day expense at a 10 days

27:56

of this compromise really being

27:58

a swing puts the cost of the company. of this at about 80 million.

28:01

Moody also flagged that the revenue is about 14 billion,

28:04

which would suggest a 270 a week

28:07

in revenue. So somewhere in

28:09

the hundreds of millions of dollars just for

28:11

interruptions to a casino floor and hotel

28:14

rooms. They were like

28:16

issuing handwritten receipts for casino winnings.

28:18

They really did manage to disrupt these

28:21

businesses in a pretty profound way. Another

28:23

thing is like stock

28:25

prices. Oh yeah. I

28:28

fully suspect that they went down here. I

28:30

saw enough to know that they didn't go up when

28:32

this happened. So was there a timeline? September? I

28:35

think September 11th is when it, September

28:38

10th or 11th is when it started. And I'm

28:40

not sure when the news broke, but I think it was pretty

28:42

quickly after that. The door's not

28:44

opening. It's pretty easy. I'm canceling your

28:47

bookings. September 11th, September 7th

28:51

was when the attack was launched and September 11th

28:53

is when the statement came out as

28:56

per a timeline. So let's just put

28:59

that with the share price.

29:02

So let's say, so funny enough, September

29:05

8th, the day after their share price

29:07

hit a bit of a mid

29:09

range high at about 44 US a

29:12

share. And as of now

29:15

it's about 36, 37. So

29:17

yeah, it's down considerably,

29:19

but not, not, you

29:22

know, completely broken. It's

29:24

not like they took like a 60% wipe, which is

29:26

good. They still own a bunch of casinos.

29:29

They'll bounce back. They

29:32

got money machines. They got money machines. Called humans

29:34

that come through the door. A little bit. The

29:36

other thing that's worth bringing up here is that, so there's MGM,

29:39

physical infrastructure affected, still

29:41

sort of recovering. Alternatively,

29:45

Caesars was hacked at the same time. So

29:48

it's important to clarify here that we're

29:50

in like a real fog of war situation

29:53

when it comes to this. This is all a couple of weeks out

29:56

and the people involved in this are social

29:58

engineers. So there's a. But an element of

30:00

it's really, really, really hard to know

30:04

if a statement is coming from a true source, if it is

30:06

coming from the real source, but they're misrepresenting what

30:08

happened. Basically it's not totally

30:10

clear that MGM and Caesars are being

30:12

done by the same people. They

30:16

did happen at the same time, but

30:18

to wildly different effect. Caesars

30:21

reportedly paid a ransom of $15 million to

30:23

the hacking group responsible for their hack

30:25

and negotiation down from the original demands of $30 million.

30:31

And it seems like they kind of got away okay. They

30:33

didn't suffer any public outages. They

30:36

seem to have managed to have

30:38

worked their way through this. It looks like they were,

30:40

like the hackers did gain access through social engineering,

30:43

but that doesn't necessarily mean it was Scattered Spider.

30:45

Sure could. It's a pretty remarkable coincidence

30:48

if it didn't. But at this point, it's

30:51

kind of just too early to know. I think that's

30:53

part of the danger of a lot of these things is we're just talking

30:55

about secondary reporting. But I

30:57

read a couple of stories that I won't bring up where

31:01

claims were made that were later denounced

31:04

by Scattered Spider on their official blog.

31:07

Now they're social engineers, and that's

31:09

a pretty great way to engineer a little bit of distrust

31:12

about the people covering you. But it could also just be that

31:14

it's really easy to trick a journalist on

31:16

a signal chat into thinking that you're

31:18

a hacker. So it's still pretty

31:20

early days. The fog of war is thick. We

31:22

don't totally know what happens, but something

31:25

went down in Las Vegas. I do know, however,

31:28

I'm just going to call it alpha for the sake of

31:30

it. Let's

31:33

call it alpha. Alpha,

31:35

the group, they actually did claim responsibility

31:38

for the MGM attack, but then they also denied

31:40

involvement in the Caesar's Act. So

31:42

I'm not sure. Not

31:44

sure. You never know. Exactly.

31:47

If it was a day on the strip in Las Vegas, it

31:49

would have been. Yeah,

31:52

I want to go to Las Vegas for DEFCON

31:54

at some point in the future because it seems like it would be

31:57

an interesting experience and some great content for the

31:59

show. But honestly, I would swap it out

32:01

to be on Las Vegas the week that this hack was done.

32:04

I think that was quite the experience. I

32:06

just would have loved to have been a fly on the wall

32:08

in the CISO's office or something,

32:11

like the chief security person. Just

32:13

be like, I don't know. Can you imagine?

32:16

This is the worst thing that could have happened. Yeah,

32:19

the doors aren't opening. All

32:21

of our systems are compromised. It's

32:25

amazing when it comes to infrastructure how usually

32:28

the biggest walls are on the outside. So the

32:31

second you can get the door open and get in

32:33

the building, it's

32:36

way easier

32:37

to

32:39

have your way with the rest of the infrastructure. If

32:42

you think about it in the sense of a crime thing, it's

32:44

like you break into the gallery. Once you're in the gallery,

32:46

you get to kind of choose and kind

32:49

of suss things out better. So

32:51

you kind of get that same vibe. Yeah,

32:54

well, clearly that's what happened here. One

32:57

lie to the right person and some technical

32:59

know-how. Pretty much gave him free run

33:02

of a Las Vegas casino chain. Not

33:04

even a Las Vegas casino chain. Hey, the international

33:07

casino chain. Yeah, it's

33:09

wild. Because wasn't there, was it Alpha? I'm

33:13

going to call him Alpha. It's

33:15

out that it was like all

33:17

of this pain came from a 10-minute

33:19

phone call or something. They

33:21

were mocking it. I

33:27

think I might have seen it on X.

33:34

A lot of the press coverage I think rightly focuses

33:36

on the social engineering and

33:39

age and native English proficiency

33:42

of the hackers. It's

33:44

just a little bit different than a lot of these groups

33:46

to suddenly have a person. I understand

33:49

the Western context intimately because I'm from

33:51

Denver or wherever they turn out to have

33:53

been from. It's

33:56

just a lot easier to lie to someone

33:58

when you share all of this.

33:59

that cultural background.

34:01

We

34:06

don't know exactly where they're from,

34:09

but if those early reports are

34:11

true, it suggests a generational

34:13

shift, I guess. Well,

34:20

because the lapses stuff, they kind of trace back,

34:22

that was at a Great Britain. A

34:26

number of people from a number

34:28

of English-speaking countries that coordinate and

34:30

collaborate would make sense. Honestly,

34:36

you really just need one person. It's

34:40

like the ocean's loving thing. You

34:43

need one person for each job on the crew, and as long as one of you is really

34:45

good

34:48

at getting on the horn with someone

34:50

and just bullshitting your way through some kind of a system,

34:53

let's get into some Tomsil Wars

34:56

stuff before we talk about the hack of

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38:27

Well, before we get to the Sony

38:30

hack, I have a really important question to ask you, which is

38:32

PlayStation or Xbox, Scott? Tough,

38:38

tough, tough question, Jordan.

38:40

Hard hitting. Well, we do hear it happening.

38:43

I get asked this quite a bit actually by people that

38:45

I know, because they're like, hey, you work in the games industry.

38:47

Sure. How do you tell me which console

38:49

I should buy now that you can actually get one of them?

38:52

Yes, that's true. Here's what I'm going

38:54

to tell you. I've been a PlayStation

38:57

ride or die. And

39:00

I think Xbox is the way

39:02

to go going forward. I

39:06

am intrigued. Yeah.

39:08

Here's my talking about that cloud gaming

39:11

clout. He's no, I'm talking

39:13

about the fact that

39:15

I think when

39:18

you see how the sausage is made, video

39:20

games are built often for

39:23

PC and adapted

39:26

to console. So what

39:28

that means is that the games are

39:30

tuned essentially to run in a PC

39:33

world, in a Microsoft structured world

39:36

often. And the thing

39:39

with an Xbox is essentially

39:41

nowadays, it's just a PC. So

39:44

when a game developer decides to release

39:46

new cutting edge features or

39:49

implement better use of the

39:52

graphics infrastructure, to

39:55

release that on an Xbox is like

39:59

a couple of. like switches

40:01

in the code to release

40:03

that on a PlayStation is a much

40:06

larger problem. So I think

40:09

just for the fact that the games industry has

40:11

gone to a ship it and we'll fix it later

40:13

structure. I

40:18

think my recommendation is Xbox, just given the fact that

40:21

the developer community responds

40:23

to the, any

40:26

changes and things and fixes that they're making on the PC

40:29

in the code for the game, will

40:33

hit PCs and Xboxes at the same time,

40:35

which are often the priority. And

40:37

then the PlayStation will be the leftover.

40:40

So I've seen that in a number of like large

40:43

point patch upgrades for certain games

40:46

is that the PC version gets better

40:49

access to new features and field

40:51

of view changes and things like that where

40:53

the PlayStation has to wait three, four

40:56

months for that change. Inside lane, yeah, I

40:58

got you. Exactly, exactly.

41:01

Great, great, great analogy. Inside lane,

41:03

Xboxes have the inside lane and Playstations

41:06

have the outside lane. Well,

41:09

before we get to the Sony hack. But with that being

41:11

said, PlayStation writers die. No,

41:14

I'm with you. I was like a PlayStation kid for years.

41:18

Xbox's new cloud gaming stuff is really,

41:20

really cool. I've been playing Starfield exclusively

41:23

over, I haven't installed it. I

41:25

don't have a disc. I've been playing

41:27

it purely through X cloud. And

41:30

it's a pretty great experience. It's like loading

41:33

up Netflix on an iPad and connecting a controller

41:35

and you're just playing the game. It's great. Very

41:37

cool. It's very, very fun. I

41:40

have Starfield downloaded and

41:42

have not started it. I think you

41:44

might like it. Did you ever play Fallout? I

41:47

did, I did play Fallout. I

41:49

also played Mass Effect and worked on it.

41:52

I hear it has

41:54

Mass Effect vibes, but isn't Mass

41:56

Effecty.

41:59

I'll

42:02

say this. As

42:05

somebody who is excited for

42:07

it to come out, set

42:10

up the pre-download, got it downloaded, and

42:15

never found the time to play, the

42:20

initial reviews that came out made me really want

42:22

to play. I'm

42:25

curious for your take on it. I've

42:30

been

42:31

having a

42:33

good time. I

42:35

like me some practical sci-fi. But

42:41

beep beep beep, I'm going to back this

42:43

thing back up the road. Xbox, PlayStation,

42:45

Sony did get hacked, I

42:48

think yesterday. Again

42:51

yesterday at the time of recording. It

42:55

was September 25th, we were recording on the 26th, and

43:00

I think the announcement was the 25th. Australian

43:05

Cybersecurity Publication, Cybersecurity Connect

43:08

broke the story of

43:10

a hack by a new ransomware group called Ransomed.VC. I

43:15

find the information that

43:17

came out on this very interesting because

43:20

it almost sounds like there's contradicting

43:22

pieces of information. What

43:25

I've read is that they've compromised every one of

43:27

Sony's systems. But

43:30

that they only have 6,000 files. If

43:36

you think about an organization, the amount of

43:38

files, you

43:42

think about anything, you guys use

43:44

Unity on one of your games. Unity

43:47

alone has 16,000 files. 6,000 files

43:51

is not a lot of information unless

43:53

there are 6,000 backups of the entire system.

43:58

No, I don't need that. them 6,000

44:01

files and they're not even holding

44:03

it for ransom. They've decided that the

44:06

value of the intellectual property is higher

44:08

than that they would get for the ransoms. They're actually

44:12

essentially putting them for sale in

44:15

the darknet. So it's like, I

44:18

don't know. It's just, it's a, it's a

44:20

unique spin on it. I

44:23

would have assumed that

44:26

they would be like, we have the entire, like

44:28

it's not just PlayStation either. They're talking about Sony

44:31

as a whole. So

44:33

it's like a lot of what Sony

44:35

does in the electronics world is patented. So

44:38

it's like, well, whatever you steal regarding

44:40

patented stuff is less

44:42

exciting to us, we can rip something that

44:44

Sony makes apart and look at the circuit board and

44:46

reverse engineer it's like, that's not the

44:49

craziest value of IP. The

44:52

PlayStation stuff for sure. You

44:54

know, any of the Sony gaming, Sony entertainment

44:56

stuff, the Sony, cause it was Sony entertainment

44:58

that got hacked last time, right? The theater side.

45:01

Wasn't that? I think it was primarily the theatrical

45:03

side of things. Cause it concerned a Seth

45:06

Rogen movie about North Korea, I believe was

45:08

the trigger for that. What

45:12

a time. What

45:14

a time to be alive. Yeah. Um,

45:18

anyway, so my, it just, it seems like

45:20

I would have thought, well,

45:23

like if it, if they'd said that we have 6 million

45:25

files that have been like, okay, like now

45:28

it's a 6,000 files. It's

45:31

not that big a number. Yeah. They

45:33

posted some evidence of the hack, uh,

45:36

like screenshots of an internal login page, PowerPoint

45:38

presentation, some Java files and a document

45:41

tree of the 6,000 files, but

45:43

as a date, we don't really know what it is. I think the specific

45:46

post date that it's supposed to be going

45:48

live, I guess for sale was September 28th,

45:50

which we're still a few days out from, but

45:52

they did post some text with this announcement.

45:55

As you mentioned, quote, we have successfully

45:58

compromised all of Sony systems. We

46:00

won't ransom them. We will sell the data

46:03

due to Sony not wanting to pay data

46:05

is for sale We are selling it the last two

46:07

were in all caps But what probably what

46:09

probably happened is the Sony has good

46:12

good security Systems and they

46:15

ransomed and locked up a bunch of stuff and they were

46:17

just like whatever we have a hot storage over

46:19

here The backup of it to delete

46:21

it and redo copy paste and they

46:23

were like well if you're not gonna pay we're gonna sell it It

46:26

also like and this is maybe this

46:28

is just me and maybe I'm talking too much, but I

46:30

feel like Maybe they

46:33

maybe they just copied all the files off of

46:35

a

46:35

shared

46:36

Drive like they found a Samba share

46:38

sitting in the in the network and they copied

46:40

those files like to have a directory

46:42

tree And to have like it just

46:45

like just seems like something that

46:47

like an F drive would have on it You know, it's like

46:49

yeah, we found this shared internal network

46:51

drive and we copied it. It's like cool

46:54

Yeah, it's gonna be one of two things

46:57

either September 26 They're gonna drop this and everyone's

46:59

gonna go why wouldn't Sony have paid for this

47:01

this includes their plans for the PlayStation 6

47:05

or Yeah They're gonna post something on September 26

47:07

and someone's gonna overpay for as you said Some

47:10

files pulled out of a shared drive that Sony decided

47:12

were not worth any money whatsoever

47:16

Sony has announced that they're investigating the situation

47:19

no further comment and as we mentioned earlier This

47:21

isn't the first time Sony has been hacked Sony

47:23

entertainment Did forget though the

47:25

Sony PlayStation Network was breached

47:28

and 77 million registered accounts

47:30

were compromised to some

47:32

degree during that Previous hack

47:35

a little over a decade ago at this point. I Was

47:38

one of those accounts for you? Interesting

47:43

I guess it would have been too I Think

47:46

but I if I remember this correctly, I think

47:49

Sony afterwards Prepaid

47:52

for a year of like a Identity

47:57

theft prevention system. I think

47:59

I think I think this was a PSN hack.

48:05

I got a year of essentially identity

48:07

theft prevention where

48:10

it was monitoring a bunch of different websites to

48:15

make sure nobody was using my information and

48:18

all this jazz. I'm pretty

48:21

sure that was that one. I

48:25

do remember that one. That definitely did hit me. I

48:30

wanted to say about this and now it's

48:32

completely gone. Was it a

48:35

bomb ass pivot to stalkerware? Oh,

48:40

it popped in your brain. It

48:43

could be. It is now. It is

48:45

now. Does this count? It is now.

48:48

This is where we're going. Strap in. Have

48:51

you never heard of pivot this bomb ass before?

48:54

Let me tell you. A

48:57

couple of episodes ago we talked a little

48:59

bit about stalkerware. Stalkerware

49:02

for anyone that didn't hear that episode and is unfamiliar.

49:06

Broad strokes is just surveillance software

49:09

installed on a person's device without their consent. These

49:12

are just apps that are meant to pretend to be a Wi-Fi

49:14

app on an Android device or something.

49:18

They're hiding in plain sight and what they're actually doing is

49:21

uploading the user's behavior to an account

49:24

and installed it to the stalker in the titular

49:26

stalkerware. You can see it. Stalkerware,

49:30

not good. No bueno. We don't like it. Talked

49:33

about it a few episodes ago. This

49:36

is a really quick one, but it looks like some

49:38

hackers went after

49:40

a piece of stalkerware called WebDetective.

49:44

Not Detective. Detective.

49:48

Compromise their servers. Access

49:50

user's database. Deleted

49:54

it. Just deleted all of it. Deleted

49:56

all the victim's information devices from the Spireware

49:58

network preventing the upload. uploading of new data

50:01

from those devices. They

50:05

then posted a hashtag fuckstalkerware. If

50:10

there's any ambiguity as to why they did this, that

50:16

can make it perfectly. So how

50:18

do you feel about this one? I

50:21

think it's a cool, good thing to do. So

50:24

you're fully in the Robin Hood camp? I'm

50:27

not sure if you're a racket, but

50:29

OwnSpy, developed by Mobile

50:31

Innovations in Spain, makes

50:34

a product that I think probably shouldn't exist.

50:37

And it shouldn't exist not in the sense that it

50:39

offers no utility, but it offers

50:41

negative utility. It's

50:44

harmful. It's a bad thing. It does

50:46

bad in the world, and I think

50:49

it's pretty neat that this happened. Can

50:52

I say that? I think I can say that. See,

50:54

I've known Jordan long enough and know him

50:57

morally. And know

50:59

that when he picked this story, that he picked

51:01

it because he's happy about this. You

51:04

can hear it in my voice. You

51:06

can definitely hear it in your voice. No,

51:09

I don't know. I

51:13

think I've said this before on a previous podcast,

51:16

where you touched on something similar to this,

51:19

but if

51:21

there's two different people breaking the law, one's

51:24

doing it for a positive outcome and

51:26

one's doing it for a negative outcome,

51:30

which one do you like more? No,

51:33

this feels to me like Peek plays

51:35

stupid games, wins stupid prizes. And

51:38

having one and a half gigabytes of your

51:41

very precious customer information get deleted

51:43

off your servers, essentially

51:46

nerfing your product.

51:48

I

51:50

think that's cool. This makes me

51:52

feel sentimental for when the cybersecurity

51:56

and hacker community was

51:59

more like this. and less

52:01

like Russian ransomware. It

52:05

was more like, hey, there's people out here

52:07

doing bad things and they're keeping information

52:09

from the public and we've liberated that information

52:11

so that people know it. And less

52:14

of people being like, your hospital

52:16

can't function and someone's going to die if you don't transfer

52:18

us $12 billion in crypto. That's

52:21

like cool. I

52:23

completely agree. It

52:27

really does. You can imagine the 90s hacker

52:29

movie of like, well, we need a villain. Have

52:31

you heard of a thing called, let me just check my notes,

52:34

stalkerware. Exactly. Yeah, that's a really,

52:36

really good villain for a

52:38

band of Robin Hoods, to borrow your phrasing.

52:41

Exactly. Yeah. So

52:44

keep it up. Last

52:47

but not least. Last but

52:50

not least. I want to take this thing over

52:52

to a place we haven't gone, I think about a

52:54

month. Let's go over to the crypto corner. Don't

52:58

do it. Do

53:01

it. Don't take me there. Okay. Let's

53:05

talk about crypto. Let's

53:07

talk about how JP Morgan, one

53:10

of the largest, most respected

53:13

banks in the world, is

53:16

now not letting its clients buy cryptocurrencies,

53:19

citing risks from criminals. Interesting

53:23

quote from Chase spokesperson

53:25

and email to Blockworks. We are committed

53:27

to helping keep our customers' money safe and secure.

53:30

We've seen an increase in the number of crypto scams

53:32

targeting UK customers. We've taken the decision

53:35

to prevent the purchase of crypto assets on

53:37

a Chase debit card or by transferring

53:40

money to a crypto site from a Chase

53:42

account. So this isn't a matter

53:44

of Chase was functioning as

53:47

a cryptocurrency exchange. This

53:49

is UK use your fiat currency

53:52

stored in our platform to purchase this

53:54

product. That's kind of why. You

53:56

think about it like this. Visa

53:59

has... Visa, MasterCard, all Amex, all

54:01

the big credit card companies have some of

54:03

the most, and banks wrapped into

54:05

that, have some of the most comprehensive

54:09

risk management, risk mitigation,

54:12

fraud prevention departments, systems,

54:14

AIs that the world has seen.

54:17

Like AIs, somebody

54:20

that was into AI,

54:23

like banking was like one of the first

54:26

places where it went. Like the

54:29

public is seeing AI now, but it's

54:32

existed in detecting patterns

54:34

and things that violate patterns in

54:37

payment processing for a long time. And

54:41

that is

54:43

unsurprising that like, hey,

54:46

your Visa card gets compromised,

54:49

and what do they do with it? They immediately turn

54:51

real fiat currency into money that we

54:54

can't take back. There's

54:57

no retailer at the other end being

54:59

like, hey. Yeah, sure. I

55:01

can give you the money back. Yeah, yeah.

55:04

I get why from a risk mitigation perspective,

55:06

it makes absolute sense. The bank,

55:08

quoting again from that article, cited the study from Action

55:11

Fraud, fraud reporting agency in the UK,

55:13

which found consumer loss connected to fraud

55:15

increased by 40% last year and suppressed 300

55:17

million British pound sterling. And

55:20

Chase, hard line

55:23

in the sand said basically, if you would

55:25

like to continue to do this, you

55:27

are free to switch banks. Wow,

55:32

that's fascinating. That's

55:34

a great response. I mean, it's a line

55:36

in the sand, right? It's just like, listen, the

55:40

amount of money we end up swallowing

55:42

because people had their identity stolen that was

55:44

used to purchase this product has reached such a significant

55:46

point that we are willing to let you switch banks as

55:48

long as we don't have to let people

55:51

buy this product using our bank.

55:54

Exactly. It's a cost benefit analysis.

55:56

They wouldn't do it if they didn't

55:58

think it was going to save the money. and

56:01

a 300 million British pounds that

56:04

I get how they got there. That's an interesting

56:06

find man. They're like we are a real

56:08

bank that deals with the real money. And

56:12

if you want to deal with that kind of money,

56:15

quote unquote money, you

56:17

can go to another bank. I

56:19

respect the shit out of that honestly. I honestly

56:21

wonder if that's gonna come to the US. It feels

56:24

much more European. As

56:30

we're looking at iPhones with USBCs

56:33

on the bottom of them for regulatory

56:35

reasons, it feels like a very European impulse that

56:37

would take several years to trickle over

56:40

to North America,

56:42

but I'm curious.

56:44

I feel like it's coming faster

56:46

than you think. I

56:50

think it might be coming. No, I think you

56:52

might be right. Like all

56:54

the telephone grifters and stuff that want you to give

56:57

them like Google app store

56:59

cards and things like that. Crypto

57:02

is way better. As

57:05

an illegal digital quote unquote currency,

57:09

or as a place to dump profits

57:13

of fraud and scam, crypto

57:15

seems like a great way to do it. If you're stealing

57:17

Visa cards and buying crypto coins, you

57:20

can then convert those theoretically

57:22

back to real money at some point pretty

57:25

easily versus buying like app

57:28

store gift cards. Well,

57:32

maybe we wrap up by talking

57:34

about, I wonder if anyone will pitch

57:37

gift cards on this show. I want to talk

57:39

about a television program called Killer

57:42

Whales. Killer Whales?

57:46

Okay, I'm gonna watch the trailer.

57:49

Buddy, crypto entrepreneurs

57:52

from all over the world face off

57:54

against the Killer Whales judges. You

57:57

put 10 million of your own money into this

57:59

project.

57:59

Are you crazy? I'm kind of crazy. It's

58:02

coming in the elementary canal and

58:04

it's ending up as decentralized diarrhea.

58:07

Oh my god. I'm

58:09

a visionary, like I said, he's a visionary. So

58:12

this is a major red flag for me. You're entitled to your

58:14

own. He's pretty exceptional. Anthony

58:17

Scaramucci, come on. Why

58:20

is Anthony Scaramucci there, dude? This 90

58:25

seconds has some of the best

58:27

lines, like the density of incredible

58:29

lines in his 90 second trailer. I

58:32

highly recommend everyone goes and watch it.

58:35

A couple personal things. So the broad

58:37

overview, everyone's familiar with the

58:40

show Shark Tank, where people

58:42

go and ship like a pitch businesses in front

58:44

of venture capitalists. It's

58:47

that, but for crypto. People

58:51

are going up in front of this panel of judges.

58:53

It's not really clear if they're actually going to invest in anything

58:55

or if they're just like judging the projects, but

58:58

they're pitching their crypto thing. And these people are

59:00

responding to it. Lines from the trailer

59:02

include they're the next Disney

59:04

said without qualification or like context.

59:10

We want to reimagine water is

59:15

such an amazing thing to hear a person say. And

59:17

the way that they're reimagining is that you can scan a QR

59:19

code on the can to get your board a person, whatever

59:21

it is. We want to reimagine water. So

59:23

it is water. So what am I missing?

59:26

Tell me on the story. When you scan the

59:28

can, that's where crypto and web three is

59:30

unlocked. I actually think they are onto

59:33

something. Oh my God. I

59:35

got I got to say I got to say this. Yeah. I

59:39

think I think I'm going to have to watch a couple episodes.

59:42

Dude, I'm I'm fully in. I'm

59:44

going to watch this entire thing. I

59:47

hope somebody shows up and

59:49

is like, here's my pitch. I'm

59:52

going to steal a bunch of crypto. Do

59:55

cries. And here's how it's going

59:58

to work. I'm going to get super rich. and

1:00:00

they're just like, yeah, I

1:00:21

think credit where credit's due, so

1:00:30

by allowing people to trade nothing,

1:00:35

they've literally managed to create

1:00:38

a trillion dollars in real

1:00:40

money strictly

1:00:42

off of speculation, which is amazing

1:00:45

that the Securities Commission and the

1:00:47

Treasury let that happen, but they did. So

1:00:52

yeah, there's still a lot of money in

1:00:54

crypto, like Bitcoin's trading at like 26, 26 plus, 26,000,

1:00:57

which is still up a lot for the year. Only

1:01:04

a half a trillion dollars

1:01:06

in market cap, yikes. Yeah,

1:01:11

anyway, this speaks to me in

1:01:18

the same way that going

1:01:20

on Twitter does. I only go on Twitter

1:01:22

to like, and this is very

1:01:24

obvious to anybody that follows us on social media,

1:01:27

I did reply to something yesterday, is

1:01:31

I go on Twitter

1:01:33

to like, see what the world's

1:01:36

fighting about, and like to look at the

1:01:38

like, like it's like a, that's

1:01:41

the right way for it, it's like when

1:01:43

I wanna see something bad. Like

1:01:46

I'm not like watching the car crash video,

1:01:48

like I see killer whales as the same as something

1:01:50

like that, like I just wanna. You're talking

1:01:52

about hate watching, let's just be honest here. If

1:01:55

that's the technical term for us. If

1:01:57

that's the technical term. Yeah,

1:02:00

I'm just intrigued by it. I'm very,

1:02:02

very intrigued by it. It's

1:02:05

reached a level. I'm not sure

1:02:07

what this show means, but I know it's

1:02:09

pretty entertaining listening to people

1:02:11

talk about these types of

1:02:13

projects using the language and

1:02:15

narrative framing of a shark's

1:02:17

tank or a dragon's den. There's

1:02:20

just something

1:02:21

really funny about it. The whole thing

1:02:23

takes place in the bat cave from The

1:02:26

Dark Knight. It looks like this sort of weird, low-roofed,

1:02:28

glowing ceiling

1:02:30

type thing. It looks great. It looks

1:02:32

like a million bucks. An idea I had when

1:02:34

I was washing this, a sincere

1:02:37

idea they can feel free to get in touch with us is

1:02:40

there's a concept in crypto,

1:02:43

I guess in a lot of investing, FUD, fear, uncertainty,

1:02:45

and doubt. Of course. People

1:02:48

get criticized in crypto. It's part

1:02:50

of the inspeak of if you aren't excited

1:02:52

about the project everyone else is excited about,

1:02:54

you're a FUDder. Fear, uncertainty,

1:02:57

doubter. I don't know if it's its

1:02:59

own whole show or a segment on

1:03:01

this show, but I think we need to host

1:03:04

FUD-hole, which is just people

1:03:07

pitching these projects to people full

1:03:09

of fear, uncertainty. I

1:03:12

want to watch FUD-hole. Here's

1:03:15

the thing. I'm just on this TV

1:03:17

show's website and they have a

1:03:20

token, of course. I wouldn't they?

1:03:22

You can buy their tokens,

1:03:26

which are

1:03:28

not a share in their company, else they

1:03:31

would be trading securities. They're just selling you a

1:03:34

token. I'm not sure what it's

1:03:36

for. Do you need a token

1:03:39

to access the show? No, I think

1:03:41

you can just watch it. But people

1:03:45

like tokens. I guess. You

1:03:48

can connect your wallet to their site and you can buy one.

1:03:53

With a million trillion dollars in token.

1:03:56

You can buy a token. And

1:04:00

then you would have it. Oh man, it's

1:04:02

gonna be interesting on this episode of Fud Hole.

1:04:04

How can I watch the show? Do

1:04:06

the premiere on hello TV. I'm

1:04:08

really I'm on there a fact. We

1:04:11

should do a we should do a watch part Oh, we should

1:04:14

for this I'm team

1:04:16

Anthony Scaramucci sentence

1:04:19

I've never said Oh Man

1:04:23

okay, let's end it there. Okay.

1:04:26

I gotta let's end it there and it there Vegas

1:04:29

hacked Sony hacked Stalker

1:04:31

we're getting taken down Crypto

1:04:33

corner and some some fun in

1:04:36

the crypto corner Can

1:04:38

I got it's been a pleasure? I think I might make a new like

1:04:41

handle for myself on the internet I have

1:04:43

like, you know, like captain Futter

1:04:45

like hole Fudd. Yeah, like Like

1:04:50

I don't think there's anybody that I

1:04:52

know that is a cynical towards crypto

1:04:55

is me So I

1:04:57

think that I deserve that we made a media property

1:04:59

about it, dude. Yeah I

1:05:04

Concur I think that's a great idea Maybe

1:05:07

we should make me get on a circuit Maybe

1:05:09

we should make a response TV show on

1:05:11

YouTube where we literally watch

1:05:14

killer whales and respond to

1:05:16

it I've never I

1:05:18

never watched response content. It's not my vibe.

1:05:21

But like I can see the appeal for it. No,

1:05:23

totally. I So

1:05:26

man, we're really off the rails here. I

1:05:28

love Tall in shows.

1:05:30

I think it's a highly it's very popular,

1:05:32

but it's still an underrated format. I

1:05:35

think they're great I think tall

1:05:37

in shows you can get a ton of content You

1:05:39

get to hear a bunch of different people's experiences and you get

1:05:42

you get to spend time with your your favorite tall

1:05:44

answering host Me and I

1:05:46

think a call-in show where

1:05:48

you pitch your ludicrous idea

1:05:51

at any stage of development to two

1:05:53

indignant people That's the dumbest

1:05:56

thing I've ever heard in my life. I would

1:05:58

watch that that sounds great. I feel I

1:06:00

feel like we've succeeded at our 2020

1:06:02

over succeeding. It's

1:06:05

not succeeded yet at our 2023 goal

1:06:07

of getting a merch store up. Maybe

1:06:10

our 2024 goal is

1:06:12

to do some form of routine

1:06:15

YouTube live Twitch something

1:06:17

and do like a do like a discord like drag

1:06:20

people into a voice chat discord or something

1:06:22

and like actually do some some video

1:06:25

content because I think that would be fun. I would enjoy

1:06:27

that. I would like that too. Okay,

1:06:29

well, I would

1:06:32

love somebody who thinks

1:06:34

the crypto is the new world order

1:06:36

to tell me why the crypto is the new

1:06:38

world order and how I've how

1:06:40

I've missed the boat so

1:06:43

far and so big. No,

1:06:45

we're circling some here. And

1:06:49

with that, it's a calendar year to get those

1:06:51

hats. We'll

1:06:53

catch you on YouTube soon enough.

1:06:55

Okay. Thank you all for listening. This

1:06:59

is a phone one and we'll catch you in the next

1:07:01

one.