0:08

Hey, pull up a chair. It's

0:10

Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod,

0:12

Robert Gibbs, and Mike Murphy. In

0:22

the courtroom, we see Donald Trump for

0:24

who he is. He's been convicted of

0:26

34 felonies, found

0:28

liable for sexual assault, and

0:30

he committed financial fraud. Meanwhile,

0:33

Joe Biden's been working, lowering

0:35

healthcare costs, and making big

0:37

corporations pay their fair share.

0:41

This election is between a convicted

0:43

criminal who's only out for himself

0:45

and a president who's fighting for

0:47

your family. I'm Joe Biden,

0:49

and I approve this message. Okay,

0:52

hello, Hacks. That was a

0:54

$50 million love letter from

0:56

the Biden campaign to Donald

0:58

Trump just up. Little quiz

1:00

question. Recognize the voiceover? I'll

1:02

give you the hint, the wire. Joining

1:05

us is my partner in podcasting crime

1:07

here, the great David Axelrod. And as

1:10

you know, David, and I think the

1:12

audience doesn't know this, is right after

1:14

we recorded this show, we slipped into

1:16

our smoking jackets and switched

1:18

the French to the language of world

1:20

diplomacy and pondered the vast canvas of

1:22

global affairs. So we're not only

1:24

going to cover what's going on in American politics

1:27

today, but we're doing our UK deep dive. And

1:29

there was only one person we could get in

1:31

the whole globe, David, right? Yeah, I

1:33

know. We got to pay more. I don't know. But

1:36

anyway, Jonathan Freeland, columnist

1:38

for The Guardian, co-host,

1:41

or a co-host, are you co-host

1:43

of Politics Weekly America? I'm

1:45

actually the sole host of Politics Weekly America.

1:48

The sole host, all right. That's a heavy

1:50

burden there. And the

1:52

co-host of Unholy, Murphy and I have

1:54

been lucky enough to be on that

1:56

podcast with you and Yonit

1:59

Levey of the... the

2:02

Israeli journalist. Tell me what station

2:05

network she's on in Israel. She's a television

2:07

broadcaster. She is. She's the anchor of the

2:09

nightly news on Channel 12 in Israel, and

2:12

we do on Holy Together. A

2:14

great podcast, both great podcasts. Great to have

2:16

you to help explain

2:18

the great pageant of American democracy.

2:21

Well, it's very good to be with you.

2:23

Long time listener, first time caller, I think

2:25

the category. I mean, yeah,

2:27

the great pageant of American democracy

2:30

with our brief little brass band

2:32

marching behind you, because we've got

2:34

an election going on over here too. Not quite

2:36

as loud or as big. So

2:38

Murphy, my question to you, you said it's

2:40

a $50 million buy, and I heard that

2:42

ad and I wondered how much of it

2:45

was designed to get

2:47

into Trump's head before

2:50

this debate. I would say about $49 million of

2:52

it. You know, and $50 million is what the

2:54

campaign... I don't think they're going to spend that

2:56

on the exact... I don't,

2:58

and it is... How do

3:01

I put it? I'm having Hillary Clinton

3:03

campaign shakes, because

3:06

every time they pound on Trump and don't

3:08

really fix Biden, I think they're missing the

3:10

strategic problem of the campaign. Now that said,

3:12

the way the ad landed, that Biden

3:15

is on your side and Trump's on his own

3:17

side. Oh yeah, totally. That's totally... That's where the

3:19

money is. That's smart. That is. Couldn't agree more.

3:21

It took them a while, but they got there.

3:23

So I can't totally trash this.

3:26

And by the way, the quiz answer

3:28

is that's John Doman, who played notoriously

3:30

corrupt police commissioner Rawls on The Wire,

3:32

but still I think does a

3:35

good job with the voiceover. That's

3:37

kind of a subliminal bit of messaging. It's

3:39

kind of subliminal. Not a

3:41

great context, but I don't think anybody other...

3:43

They love their celebrity announcers. You know, they

3:45

had De Niro, now him. They're going younger

3:48

now. They got down to a 70 year

3:50

old. Reaching

3:53

to the kids. I felt

3:55

for some time that one of the... I mean, we've

3:57

talked about it a million times on this podcast, one

3:59

of the... distinctions that works in Biden's

4:01

favor is that Trump is so palpably

4:05

absorbed by Trump, and everything

4:07

he does is for his own benefit.

4:11

And people recognize that to some

4:13

degree, and Biden

4:15

needs to work that

4:17

relentlessly in this debate because

4:19

there are so many areas where, I mean,

4:22

the whole abortion thing lends itself

4:24

to that. Trump killing the border

4:26

bill lends itself to that. His

4:29

auctioning off the

4:32

regulatory authority to the oil

4:35

executives lends itself. Hey,

4:37

wait a minute. I'm not sure I agree on that policy,

4:39

but keep going. I think you're right politically. I was

4:41

wondering how long I could go. I'm going to veer

4:43

into all kinds of things

4:46

that will get you crossways with me, Murphy,

4:49

because I think there's a populist economic

4:51

message for him to deliver here. But

4:53

absolutely, that's where he should be. And

4:55

I agree with you. To me, that's

4:57

center cut for them. If that's where

4:59

they're going, that's where they should be.

5:01

We both know, and Jonathan, you've observed

5:04

politics a long time. The

5:06

key to this stuff is telling people

5:08

things they already think are true, but

5:10

making it relevant to the choice. Trump is kind

5:12

of a needy, selfish son of

5:15

a bitch. Maybe he shouldn't be in the Oval Office.

5:17

So Biden's finally found a leverage point on

5:19

Trump. Now he could use a better one

5:22

on himself. So I

5:24

love the second half of the spot. It's

5:26

a step forward. So all

5:29

in all, I think, let's

5:31

see how much they spend, but I

5:33

like it better than the De Niro spot by a mile. But

5:36

much better. The closing line made me think they're

5:38

listening to you guys, because both of you for

5:40

ages been saying, say, I'm for you.

5:42

He's only for himself. It's about time for

5:44

crying out loud. Yeah. Who does he think

5:47

he is? President or something? So

5:49

we all like that bit. But what

5:51

did you think of the first half?

5:53

Because the business of putting Biden's own

5:55

name on the Trump is a convicted

5:58

felon message. I actually think that. jury

6:00

put their name on that. Right, they did.

6:02

They got there first. But I found myself

6:04

a little ambivalent because my view had been,

6:06

let others call him a convicted felon. Don't

6:09

put those words in Biden's mouth because it

6:11

plays to that narrative that this was all

6:13

rigged. It was politically motivated. Biden's pulling the

6:15

strings. So therefore, let other people say it,

6:17

but don't put it in your own ad

6:20

was my first feeling. But you know- Yeah,

6:22

no, listen, I agree with, I've felt this

6:24

for a long time. I mean, I think

6:27

he's going to get the people

6:29

who are offended by Trump's

6:33

lawlessness and by this conviction

6:35

and by January 6th. And

6:39

they've been saying for, you know, that this has

6:41

been the message they've been delivering for a year

6:43

that, you know, when people focus on this stuff

6:45

that Trump will win. The

6:47

people who are hanging out in

6:49

this race, these unconnected voters, these

6:52

voters who are not paying attention, they're

6:54

far more concerned about economic issues and

6:57

things that affect them. And like I,

6:59

you know, I believe deeply as Murphy

7:02

does, because that's why he's in a

7:04

bunker somewhere in California, hiding out in

7:07

democracy and the importance of our institutions and

7:10

rules and laws and norms. I believe all

7:12

that. And I believe this is a really

7:14

important election for that reason, but that is

7:16

not what's going to move the people they

7:19

need to move. Right. That's not the offer.

7:21

The Biden guys need to understand that the other

7:24

half of the country thinks Biden is the threat

7:26

to democracy. So it's not this

7:28

big evergreen high lantern that it ought to

7:30

be that organizes everything. What organizes everything is

7:32

what are you paying on your car payment?

7:34

You know, what are you paying for food?

7:36

And the other thing is Biden is, and

7:38

we've said this before, I'll be quick. Everything

7:41

in sales and marketing is about

7:43

what advertising people call

7:46

the offer. Right now, Biden's offer

7:48

is you don't get Trump. It's not enough. What's

7:50

second term? What do you get from Biden? But

7:53

anyway, a step in the right direction, or as

7:55

the president would say, that's a pretty damn good

7:57

talkie. And I think he, he.

8:00

I also think in the

8:02

Democrat panic stricken world, it's

8:05

a crisp enough argument. It

8:07

feels like a good hit and I think

8:09

it'll have a good psychological effect which is

8:12

not unimportant in the Dem world

8:14

now which is pretty beat down. It motivates the

8:16

base, there's no doubt about it. It makes them

8:18

feel like they got a campaign and they're out

8:20

slugging. And it

8:22

frames it pretty well. So we got the big debate

8:24

coming. Yes. I

8:26

think people are missing something. I'm curious what

8:29

you guys think. This debate

8:31

is gonna be different. And I tip my

8:33

hat to the folks at

8:35

CNN, pale imitator

8:37

of NBC where I work, but they do what

8:39

they can. It's

8:42

like, I can't remember the

8:44

pop culture reference, but someone

8:46

was just talking about the

8:48

inquirer being the only real source. Sure, the New

8:51

York Times, opposed they get lucky once in a

8:53

while. I can't remember where the movie was from.

8:55

But anyway, I think CNN with these debate rules

8:57

has done a good job. Too big thing, no

9:00

audience. That means you're naked on

9:02

a rock under the lights. It's all you, you,

9:04

you. I hope you mean that figuratively. Of course,

9:06

no, no. No one's asking for that. Yeah, we

9:08

just sold a lot of Better Health, one of

9:11

our sponsors subscription. People trying to get that out

9:13

of their head. Good luck. But

9:15

it's you and the camera. Junkies

9:18

out there are a hack audience. Go Google

9:20

the old Nixon Kennedy's or any, or

9:23

Reagan Carter, where it's just the two of them.

9:26

It's a different vibe. Cause when you got a bunch

9:28

of Roman circus crowd crap going on,

9:31

it gives you moments to let

9:33

that rule, not you. This is you're under the

9:35

electron microscope. And we can argue, and I'd love

9:37

to hear what you guys think, who it's good

9:40

or bad for. Second, they're gonna have some gorilla

9:42

on the microphone switch. And when

9:44

it's not your time, you don't have a mic. That's

9:47

not a small thing. It means you'll be heard,

9:49

but you'll be heard way off mic, weak and

9:51

tinny and small. And

9:54

for Trump, the blustering interrupter, that takes

9:56

away one of his big tools. So

9:59

I think this is gonna. to be very

10:01

different television than these horrible debates we've been

10:03

having with the circus crowd, the pro wrestling

10:05

thing. And I think net

10:07

net, if we have good Biden, we've talked

10:10

about this, we're rolling the dice. The campaign,

10:12

the Biden campaign really is. But

10:14

I think this is not the best format

10:16

for Trump. And if you abide bad Biden,

10:18

won't help him either. Well, what do you

10:20

all think? Well, I agree with you about

10:22

the not hearing the

10:24

interruptions, but it's not like the interruptions are

10:26

not gonna happen. Trump is

10:28

still gonna be doing that. And Biden will

10:31

be hearing it even if we, the audience

10:33

can't hear it. So does that get a

10:35

situation where he's rattled, Trump is

10:37

in his head and in his face, but

10:39

the audience don't even quite know why. So

10:42

Biden could suddenly be stumbling off his game for

10:44

reasons that the audience haven't completely seen. I mean,

10:46

I think that is a risk. The

10:49

Trump people, they say he

10:51

is aware that

10:55

the first debate in 2020 was a disaster for him

11:00

because he was constantly interrupting and looked

11:02

like a complete jackass. I mean, I

11:04

was looking at that debate.

11:07

I went back and looked at that debate

11:09

over the weekend. And there

11:12

was one moment where Biden says, you know,

11:14

we have to get smarter.

11:18

Or maybe he said he has to get smarter about, it

11:21

must've been COVID policy or something. And

11:23

Trump said, smart, you're talking about smart.

11:26

He interrupts him. He says, you said

11:28

you went to Delaware State. You can't

11:30

even remember where you went to college

11:32

and you finished last in your class.

11:35

Don't tell me about smart. And it's

11:37

like, wow, who

11:39

would like a guy like that? And

11:42

so I think that, you know, actually the

11:44

Trump guys are

11:47

relieved in some ways that, you

11:49

know, that there'll be some guardrails

11:52

there. I think, and

11:54

they think he will respect that.

11:57

I think he's gonna wanna rattle Biden and

11:59

I think he's gonna... to do, Jonathan, what

12:01

you suggest. And if I were

12:03

prepping Biden for this debate, I'd have a

12:05

guy heckling him constantly so that

12:09

he practices talking through the

12:11

interruptions. Because they've done a

12:14

lot of packaging lately, Murphy,

12:16

of scenes

12:19

that weren't what they seem to

12:21

be, to make Biden look enfeebled.

12:24

He's talking to a paratrooper

12:26

over in Europe, they

12:28

cut the paratrooper out of the picture and makes

12:31

it look like Biden is wandering off on his

12:33

own. So

12:36

there's a risk here for him.

12:38

Every pro comic knows that when you have

12:40

a heckler who's not Mike, you just get

12:43

bigger on your microphone and crush him. Because

12:45

Trump will be, and another thing,

12:47

Joe, so you'll be able to read

12:49

them on the mic a little. And

12:53

you're right, it may rattle Biden in the

12:55

room. It gets down to the fundamental problem,

12:58

which I actually know all about. When you

13:00

have Mr. President, who's got the head of

13:02

Bulgaria on line two and the vast important

13:05

issues, at least in their mind, how do

13:07

you get him to debate prep? Because

13:09

Biden's got to wrap his head around this

13:11

this mic control thing. Because he can use

13:13

it if he's savvy. I'm

13:15

told that after this event today that

13:18

he's doing, we should talk about the

13:20

event today he's doing on immigration. He's

13:22

going down and

13:25

the next 10 or eight days or

13:27

something will be devoted completely to prep and

13:29

rest, prep and rest, which is the right

13:32

thing to do. And Trump,

13:34

of course, is not... They

13:38

have people coming in and talking

13:40

to Trump on various

13:43

politicians who are expert on various

13:45

policies, and they're coming in and

13:47

talking to Trump. But they don't

13:50

call it prep. He

13:52

doesn't have anybody

13:54

playing Biden. Trump,

13:57

you remember Gene Hackman, one take and stuff.

14:00

Trump thinks he's an entertainer. He

14:02

knows how to use the medium and

14:04

he doesn't want to be programmed. And he thinks

14:07

he's better than everyone advising him at this. So

14:09

he's not going to listen to him. Oh, totally.

14:11

He's no Gene Hackman either. I knew Gene Hackman.

14:13

Gene Hackman was a friend. Well, so here's the

14:15

thing. I just was going to say that I've

14:17

got to this point now where so often developments

14:19

happen where I think, well, that's bad for Trump.

14:21

And then you second guess yourself because it turns

14:23

out it's not so bad like getting convicted in

14:26

a court or whatever. So these

14:28

things keep happening. Yeah, you would think that would be bad,

14:30

wouldn't you? You'd think it would be bad. And then you

14:32

realize why actually it works from say with this case, when

14:34

these rules came out, I thought, right, that's really

14:36

good for Biden because the bear pick would be

14:38

really tough for him where you have to be

14:40

nimble and quick. He couldn't be as good as

14:42

that. Now I've got this other worry. One of

14:44

them is the one we've said, which is that

14:46

Trump needles him and the audience can't hear it.

14:49

And so it makes Biden look as if he's

14:51

sort of swatting a fly that no one can

14:53

see. That's bad. But my other worry is, had

14:56

the crowd been there revving Trump

14:58

up, Trump was more likely to

15:00

go off the rails to say

15:02

something completely offensive and egregious and

15:04

be crazy Trump. Will he now

15:06

in this more controlled environment be

15:08

himself more controlled, look at

15:10

the armor and not be the Trump

15:12

of the Biden and Democrats case? I

15:14

think they're both capable of becoming a

15:16

bit unhinged. Whoever thinks they're losing 20

15:18

minutes in. So if one guy

15:20

can get off a good line or two, the other

15:22

will react to that by freaking out and doubling it

15:24

down. I mean, with Trump, there is no controlling. I

15:26

mean, it's just lives in the moment

15:28

of his insecurity. It reminds me of the little Dennis

15:30

Miller joke about Charles Manson. You're playing checkers with him.

15:32

He makes two good moves. You're thinking, oh, that's okay.

15:34

And then he tries to poke your eye out with

15:37

the board and strangle you. You know, you just don't

15:39

know what the trigger is and

15:41

Trump will get triggered if Biden has any

15:43

good moments at all. So well, and you

15:45

know, there'll be provocative questions, I'm sure for

15:47

both of them from the moderate. Yeah, and

15:49

Tamper will be pretty good at grinding away.

15:52

I think he'll probably be good at grinding

15:55

away on both of them. But here's the

15:58

other concern I would have. Biden needs

16:00

to show strength, and when he

16:02

tries to show strength, he often

16:04

looks like Clint Eastwood chasing kids off

16:07

the lawn in Gran Torino. So

16:10

now you're in a room, and

16:16

if he tries to show strength by

16:18

shouting and by being very severe,

16:22

does it look weird? No, it looks

16:24

crazy, old man. If

16:26

they train them right, part of it is

16:28

theatrical training, use your mic advantage. That

16:30

is not a small thing, but it's a tool you

16:33

have to know how to use. But

16:35

we will see, and we'll be doing bracket coverage.

16:37

We're going to talk again before the debate, we'll

16:40

do a special afterward. Here

16:42

it comes, ladies and gentlemen, the

16:44

two great titans of American democracy.

16:48

What would be 160 years of

16:50

combined experience on stage? Exactly, exactly.

16:53

Yeah, there you go. When

16:55

you think about it, not that many

16:57

presidential debates have been that consequential, right?

16:59

I mean, you know, Reagan

17:02

Carter was consequential,

17:06

but there aren't that

17:08

many that you could point to and say, in the

17:10

end of the day, that made a big difference. It's

17:14

June, and so, you know,

17:16

maybe it's too early to pronounce

17:19

this as a very consequential debate.

17:21

But, in fact, there are such

17:24

profound questions about both of these guys. Yeah,

17:26

I think it's big. I think this is

17:28

a really, really big thing. And

17:31

we've never had two presidents,

17:34

and so you've got two guys with records that

17:38

are parallel records that

17:41

adds a dimension here that we've never seen

17:44

before. And you have two guys

17:46

who, like presidents generally, have not

17:48

debated for four years because

17:51

Trump absented himself from the Republican

17:54

debates and who are going,

17:56

who, you know, the

17:58

habit of presidents in these first days.