0:13

Welcome to Hacks & Wonks. I'm Crystal Fincher, and I'm a political consultant and your host.

0:18

On this show, we talk with policy wonks and political hacks to gather insight

0:22

into local politics and policy in Washington state through the lens of those

0:26

doing the work with behind-the-scenes perspectives on what's happening, why it's

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happening, and what you can do about it. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions

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wherever you listen to Hacks & Wonks. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always

0:48

available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes.

0:53

Today, we're focusing on a critical position in Washington state that

0:57

will be on our ballots this year - the Commissioner of Public Lands.

1:01

This elected official leads the Department of Natural Resources, with over 2,500

1:05

employees across 11 divisions, managing a vast portfolio that impacts our state's

1:10

environment, economy, and communities.

1:13

The Commissioner oversees management of 5.6 million acres of public

1:18

lands - from coastal waters and aquatic reserves, to working forests and

1:22

farms, mining operations, commercial developments, and recreation areas.

1:27

They're responsible for generating revenue from these lands to support

1:30

local services, while also preserving habitats and addressing climate change.

1:36

These lands currently generate over $200 million annually for schools and public

1:40

services like libraries and hospitals.

1:43

The Commissioner manages our state's largest on-call fire department,

1:46

responsible for preventing and fighting wildfires on 13 million acres

1:51

of state and private forest lands. This is increasingly critical as climate change intensifies wildfire

1:57

seasons, affecting air quality and public safety across Washington.

2:02

Ecological responsibilities include salmon habitat restoration, protection

2:06

of endangered species, and enhancing carbon sequestration in our forests.

2:10

They also manage the geoduck fishery and oversee the removal of

2:13

derelict vessels from state waters. The Commissioner plays a key role in climate resilience, developing

2:19

strategies to adapt state lands and their uses to changing

2:23

environmental conditions and needs. They work closely with the tribal governments and sovereign nations

2:28

- honoring treaty rights and fostering collaborative land management.

2:33

For rural residents, the Commissioner's policies directly impact job

2:36

opportunities in forestry, agriculture, and emerging clean energy sectors.

2:41

Urban and suburban folks are affected, too - from the expansion of urban tree

2:44

canopies that cool our cities to the preservation of recreation areas where

2:48

we camp, hike, and connect with nature.

2:51

This position affects everyone in our state from the air we breathe to the

2:55

economic vitality of rural communities.

2:58

It's vital for voters to understand the significance of this role as you

3:02

make your choice for this position on your ballot in this August primary

3:05

and November general election. To discuss his vision for this important position, we're joined by Dave Upthegrove

3:12

- a former legislator, current King County Councilmember, and candidate

3:16

for Commissioner of Public Lands. We'll explore his approach to balancing economic needs with environmental

3:22

protection, his plans for wildlife management, and how he aims to address

3:26

pressing issues like climate change, environmental justice, and more.

3:30

Welcome, Dave! And to start off, what made you decide to run for Public Lands Commissioner?

3:36

Well, first, I'm excited to be here, Crystal - my first time on the podcast.

3:40

You know, our world is changing. We're experiencing the impacts of climate change all around us.

3:46

We're seeing a rapid loss of biodiversity locally and around the globe.

3:50

And I'm running for Lands Commissioner to improve the management of our public

3:54

lands to meet these realities of today.

3:58

And it's not, for me, a stepping stone to higher office - in fact,

4:03

I'm running to take a pay cut. But it really is, for me, the culmination of a life and career spent

4:09

on environment and natural resources.

4:12

As I explained to my mother a few months back, it feels like

4:15

coming home to what led me to public service in the first place.

4:20

So what are the biggest challenges facing the Department of Natural Resources,

4:26

DNR, and how do you plan to face them? As we do our work, the next commissioner has a huge responsibility on their

4:33

shoulder - it's a big and complicated job.

4:36

And I think the biggest challenges we face are how to reorient an agency to

4:42

make sure that we are truly operating in the public interest, and addressing these

4:48

large looming environmental challenges facing us as a state and as a planet.

4:56

And I think the climate crisis is the biggest threat because its consequences

5:00

are so severe - the threats upon us now, it makes acting with urgency imperative.

5:07

And DNR has a big role to play.

5:09

Our Pacific Northwest forests are some of the greatest carbon sinks in the world.

5:13

And just a couple of years ago, the State Supreme Court in a landmark ruling - it

5:19

was called Conservation Northwest v. Franz - it's really given us the opportunity to make some changes to our

5:26

forestry practices to store more carbon.

5:29

It means we ought to set ambitious carbon storage sequestration goals

5:34

as we do our next sustainable harvest calculation - that's a fancy word

5:39

for kind of the long range plan. It means preserving our legacy forests - these older, structurally

5:44

diverse, mature forests - they're maybe 3% of our forest lands, but

5:48

have a big outsize impact on climate.

5:50

It means instituting honest carbon accounting as part of the analysis

5:54

when we're going to sell timber. And I think implementing these kinds of big changes are going to be one

6:02

of the biggest challenges at the department, but I know they're possible.

6:04

We've done similar things in King County. We've established a forest carbon program as part of our County

6:10

Land Conservation Initiative. We've led successful efforts to stop destruction of these mature

6:15

forests in King County, and we're doing our own carbon accounting.

6:19

And so I think the State Department of Natural Resources really urgently

6:23

needs to catch up with these efforts when it comes to climate and forestry.

6:27

The other area where I think is ripe for improvement, one of the

6:30

biggest challenges, is around recognizing that connection

6:34

between the environment and people.

6:37

We don't do this work to protect our natural areas for the natural

6:40

areas' sake - we do it because the impacts they have on people.

6:44

And ensuring that we are implementing our environmental justice principles

6:49

and values into all of the work at the agency - I think there's

6:52

a culture there that needs to be modernized, that needs to be improved.

6:57

It starts with hiring the most diverse staff in the history of the agency,

7:00

in every sense of the word diverse. It means making sure that our - believe it or not, we have a hundred

7:05

advisory committees and standing task forces just for the agency.

7:09

We need to make sure that all that community input, those committees

7:12

reflect the diversity of the state and we listen to them.

7:15

It means trying to break down the barriers to women and

7:18

minority-owned businesses contracting.

7:21

It means changing how we do community engagement, particularly

7:24

with marginalized communities. It means going beyond the requirements for environmental justice law to

7:29

do more racial justice assessments. There's so much work that needs to be done - not just on the environmental

7:35

side, but really on that environmental justice side - on the connection between

7:38

that agency and the people we serve.

7:40

I think that's going to be another challenge and priority to address as well.

7:45

Fighting wildfires is one of the most visible things that you'll be responsible

7:50

for to most people in the state.

7:53

Are we currently managing our forests and areas vulnerable to wildfire correctly?

7:59

What will your approach be? Sure.

8:01

Obviously, wildfire prevention and response needs to be a top

8:05

priority - not only for public safety, but also for public health.

8:09

Those of us on the West Side have all experienced the smoke from recent

8:14

wildfires - and that creates health risks.

8:16

And it does so disproportionately on marginalized communities.

8:20

So obviously we need to do more to continually improve

8:24

our prevention efforts. They are making good progress, but we need a greater emphasis on

8:29

prescribed burns, non-commercial thinning - not just to manage wildfire

8:33

prevention, but forest health.

8:36

And there's been good work, the department has a Forest Health Plan - that's what

8:41

the term people use - forest health is getting and managing forests in order to

8:45

prevent wildfires and keep them healthy.

8:48

And they've treated about half a million acres - that's what we

8:52

call prescribed burns and thinning. So that's pretty good progress - half a million acres treated - but they've all

8:56

been in Eastern Washington, all of them. And that makes sense, but with the increasing wildfires on the West Side,

9:01

I would like to see us start moving that work west of the mountains as well.

9:05

I also think we need to keep working to address the barriers to the

9:10

local level training and support. A lot of this work is done with local partners, fire departments, counties

9:16

- and the funding has been uneven and we need to secure from the Legislature

9:21

an increase in dedicated funding and capacity for those local partnerships.

9:26

I also think we ought to pursue effectiveness monitoring to get

9:29

better information on how these different forest health treatments

9:31

actually impact wildfire behavior. If we're doing commercial thinning, is it really - do we

9:37

know that that's making an impact? And a number of outside organizations have recommended we would benefit from

9:43

some additional data in those areas.

9:45

So I think they're on the right track - I think one of Commissioner Franz's

9:48

legacy will be the work she's done with the Legislature to get funding

9:52

to modernize and upgrade - not just prevention like we've been talking

9:57

about, but the response capacity as well.

10:00

And in this race, I haven't seen much difference between the

10:02

candidates in our approach to wildfire prevention and response.

10:07

At the end of the day also, the job of the commissioner is to listen

10:10

to the fire professionals at the department and fight like hell to get

10:14

them the resources to do their jobs. It's very much analogous to a mayor and a fire department within a city - there's

10:20

a fire department within the Department of Natural Resources that provides

10:23

response not only to the state lands, but wildland wildfires throughout the state.

10:29

So I think we are on the right track. I think we need to, as I said, continue to get the targeted resources for those

10:34

local partnerships, make sure what we're doing is working, and expand that

10:40

forest health work into the West Side.

10:44

Beyond wildfires, there are other natural hazards that we face increasing risks

10:50

from - particularly due to climate change - like landslides and floods.

10:54

What will be your approach to addressing those risks?

10:58

A healthy forest provide a lot of functions - they're not just revenue

11:02

to our beneficiaries, but they provide public benefits like healthy

11:06

forests help with wildfire prevention. They help with flood prevention.

11:10

They help with mitigating landslides.

11:13

And the Lidar mapping of the landslide-prone lands in the state has

11:19

actually dramatically improved DNR's ability to detect these slide-prone

11:25

areas, particularly in western Washington.

11:29

And I think we need further analysis and use of existing data, we need to

11:34

continue to refine more precise data to improve what is essentially the

11:39

predictive ability of the geologists within DNR so that we can preclude

11:45

and not move forward with timber harvests on these slide-prone slopes.

11:49

And we've seen some examples - oh, it was some time ago when I was in the

11:52

Legislature - called the Stillman Creek slide in 2007, it was a classic case of a

11:57

timber harvest that was allowed to proceed on a slope that was prone to slide.

12:03

And if the geologists are consulted prior to the harvest planning, I

12:06

think these events can be prevented.

12:09

And we also should use this accurate Lidar data to try to warn communities prior to

12:15

landslides, like the Oso slide in 2014.

12:18

Often the same factors - not always - that contribute to slides

12:22

also can contribute to flood issues.

12:25

As the department engages in timber harvest, we have to make sure that

12:30

the environmental analysis is done so that we are not disproportionately

12:34

impacting a watershed with flood issues.

12:36

And it's not just flooding, it's the way it impacts how water runs in a watershed

12:41

- I think that's a more common problem.

12:43

The decisions you make around forestry impact the salmon in the stream.

12:49

When you cut down more trees - even when you replant them - when you

12:52

have younger trees, it means the water gets to the stream faster.

12:56

So you get higher flows in the winter and lower flows in the summer.

13:01

And in a lot of these river basins, it's those low flows - affect the temperature

13:05

and they affect the salmon and the orca that feed on them, so there's very

13:09

much a connection between our forestry decisions and water in a watershed

13:15

and how it affects salmon and orca. So I want to make sure that when we do our environmental analysis, we're

13:21

taking a comprehensive look - not just at DNR's actions, but all

13:24

the actions in that watershed. That would be a change.

13:27

I also want to aggressively move forward with what they call riparian restoration

13:33

- that's replanting along rivers. And we're supposed to be doing that - and we have in our federal plans, plans

13:39

to do that - but it doesn't generate money, so it often gets left behind.

13:43

And I want to reprioritize riparian restoration.

13:46

Those are steps that also can help with hydrology and things like

13:50

flooding and landslides as well.

13:53

But protecting public safety has to be an important part of

13:56

the job of the commissioner and wildfires, flooding, landslides

14:01

are all an important part of that. So, Department of Natural Resources has a mandate to be extractive and generate

14:09

revenue from our shared public resources.

14:12

Those revenues benefit things like public schools and things that are

14:15

very important to our state and our communities, but we also want to

14:19

preserve habitat and green space and not contribute to worsening climate change.

14:26

What will your approach be to balancing that?

14:30

You just described the core tension of this job in that question.

14:34

I approach this job with strong conservation values.

14:38

My interest is in ensuring we're protecting clean air,

14:40

clean water, and habitat. These are not mutually exclusive with the goals of supporting rural economies,

14:48

creating jobs, funding public services.

14:51

When the federal government handed over all these lands to the state when

14:54

we became a state - that's where many of these lands came from, some of the

14:57

lands were given to us by counties during the Depression - they were

15:00

put into trust for the beneficiaries.

15:03

One of the big trusts is for K-12 education, some of it goes to fund

15:07

some of the work at the State Capitol. The lands we got from the counties during the Depression, some of the money

15:12

there goes back into local governments.

15:15

This court ruling I mentioned before, Conservation Northwest v.

15:18

Franz, clarified a couple things.

15:21

Number one, we don't have a constitutional mandate to maximize revenue.

15:26

We do have a responsibility to manage them for the benefit of the trust, but the

15:31

court also ruled we have responsibility to manage them in the public interest.

15:35

After all, these are public lands - they belong to "we the people," and I want

15:39

to make sure that we are balancing that need to generate revenue for

15:43

the trust with the public interest. Keeping the scale in perspective is important, and I'll tell

15:50

you what I mean by that. These federal lands - a large chunk of them are in what's called the K-12

15:55

trust to fund K-12 public education.

15:58

All of the timber revenue generated off of all of the K-12 trust lands

16:03

account for 1.5% of the state share of new school construction.

16:10

So when you pass a school bond and get matching funds from the state, 1.5%

16:14

of the matching funds - that's it. Our Superintendent of Public Instruction, Chris Reykdal, has said

16:21

- Quit pitting trees against schools. You know, I don't need this even.

16:26

And we absolutely need to fully fund public education.

16:29

We're underfunding it. We're seeing huge achievement gaps due to inequities and opportunity,

16:36

but the pathway to fully funding our public education system,

16:39

unfortunately, is not through DNR. And I like to share that because there's a perception that - Oh,

16:44

this is how our schools are funded. That being said, some of these county trust lands - some of that money also

16:50

goes to fund some operating little one-time lump sums out in timber-dependent

16:55

counties and that can be meaningful. So it is an important public policy debate and I believe there

17:01

are strategies to balance it. I'll give you one example - I believe the next commissioner has an opportunity

17:06

- I think a responsibility - to protect some of our older, more mature forests.

17:11

I call them the almost-old growth forests, you'll hear activists refer

17:15

to them as our mature legacy forests.

17:17

We're not talking tree farms. We're talking naturally regenerated, structurally diverse, they're

17:21

beautiful when you walk into them - they store the most carbon,

17:25

they have the most biodiversity. They make up about 3% of our state-owned forest lands, but they

17:31

have an outsized impact on our climate.

17:33

And so on Day One, as the next Lands Commissioner voters willing, I intend to

17:38

sign a mature forest policy that ends the destruction of our mature legacy forests.

17:42

But the cool thing about this - we can do this and still, as I said,

17:46

nurture rural economies, create jobs, fund those public services.

17:51

And we do it by using existing funding streams to acquire

17:55

replacement timberlands. And these funding streams have names like Natural Climate Solutions Program

18:01

under the Climate Commitment Act. Or in some cases, the Trust Land Transfer Program.

18:06

Or if needed, even using state capital bonds.

18:09

We can then expand our trust holdings.

18:11

A fun fact I learned in this campaign, 70% - seven zero percent - of the forestry

18:17

takes place on private timberlands. The state only owns about 30% of our timberlands.

18:22

And on these private timberlands, it's not unusual for a large investment

18:27

company that's harvesting them - after they harvest the trees, sometimes will

18:32

sell off those lands for development.

18:34

That's a great opportunity for the state to acquire those private

18:39

timberlands, bring them into our trust, and replant them as tree farms to

18:44

generate revenue, to generate jobs.

18:47

And we don't even have to do that immediately.

18:50

In the short term, we just harvest other parcels.

18:52

But over the next 40 years, using those funding streams to grow the trust

18:57

out, we could even end up with more forestry, more trees, more revenue.

19:02

And so it's a example of how if you're creative you can balance that goal

19:07

of meeting the public interest in climate change and biodiversity while

19:11

still working to generate revenue. Well, and that leads into the next question I had about rural communities

19:18

and their greater reliance than urban or suburban areas on the revenue

19:24

and jobs generated by timberlands.

19:27

What's your plan to maintain and grow the resilience of rural

19:32

communities under your tenure? I like the way you frame that because these have been some tough communities

19:39

that have been through tough times. The Department of Natural Resources should be doing everything we can - not

19:44

only to manage the lands in a healthy way for future generations, but to

19:49

maximize that positive impact we can have on people in those communities

19:54

in terms of the economic work. It's why when I talk about legacy forests, I talk about acquiring replacement

20:01

timberlands - it's just for that reason, recognizing that this is a balance.

20:04

When the federal government years ago, the classic - people always remember

20:08

the spotted owl - but that was what they called the Federal Forest Plan.

20:11

That made dramatic reductions in how much forestry was taking place on federal

20:16

lands, and it hurt these rural economies because the economic development that

20:20

was sort of promised never materialized.

20:23

If you ever want a fun read, Congressman Derek Kilmer's senior

20:26

thesis was basically on how the Federal Forest Plan failed rural

20:31

communities in the economic development. I envision a strong, healthy forest products industry for years to come.

20:37

The kind of ideas I'm proposing are targeted, strategic, thoughtful ways

20:41

to transform some of this work to do better for climate and biodiversity

20:45

- what I'm suggesting is not an agenda akin to the Federal Forest Plan.

20:49

I think we can be proactive. I think we need to be partnering with priority hire type of processes to

20:56

ensure that when we're doing this work, we're hiring from local communities.

21:00

We need to be looking to diversify the way we're generating revenue off our public

21:05

lands, because that also diversifies the economic opportunities there.

21:09

And specifically, I think there's a lot of opportunities in the new

21:12

clean energy deployment to create local jobs and economic activity.

21:18

And what I'm talking about there is that there is a state law that says - by

21:25

2045, utilities have to provide all their energy in Washington

21:27

state from clean energy sources. That's coming up fast.

21:30

We're getting old, so 2045 is less than 20 years away.

21:33

So there's this huge push right now for utility-scale wind and solar

21:38

around the state, particularly obviously in rural communities.

21:41

And I think DNR can play an important role in helping facilitate the

21:46

development of that new clean energy infrastructure in a way that provides

21:50

tremendous economic development. And I've proposed the DNR lead a process building off of sort of a pilot program

21:57

that was done to bring together tribes, environmental community, clean energy

22:01

developers, and others to essentially map out - literally on a map - okay,

22:06

where are the tribal sacred spaces we don't want to impact, where is the

22:09

critical shrub steppe habitat we don't want to destroy, what's geographically

22:13

suitable for wind and solar. And then have a coordinated state plan to make sure we're

22:18

meeting those energy needs. And where the state doesn't own the land, to try to get the Legislature to

22:25

purchase those available lands and put them into a new clean energy trust to help

22:29

facilitate the development that we then lease to the wind and solar developers.

22:33

And then take all the revenue we generate off that - put that back

22:37

into those communities for rural economic development, with a specific

22:41

focus on helping folks who are low income with their capital costs

22:46

for transitioning to clean energy. Utilities do a lot of that, but there's some gaps.

22:50

Clean energy is going to be cheaper for people in the future, but that

22:53

transition cost can be a burden to marginalized communities.

22:57

And so I think there's a real role to play in both meeting those clean

23:02

energy goals, avoiding tribal and environmental conflicts, and funding

23:06

rural economic development with a focus on environmental justice.

23:10

And so I'm really excited about that. My takeaway is - I've been traveling all over the state, working my butt

23:15

off and getting to know people from Pend Oreille County, spending a lot

23:19

of time out on the Peninsula - and the communities look different.

23:23

I represent probably the most diverse corner of the state, but it is amazing

23:28

to me how common the struggles and challenges are in these communities.

23:32

Some of the lenses people view them are a little bit different - but whether you

23:36

are in urban, suburban, diverse South King County, or whether you're out in Clallam

23:41

County, people are really worried about their economic future for their kids.

23:45

There's the sense that - I had it okay and my kids aren't going to

23:49

have those kind of opportunities. There's a tremendous challenge with addiction right now in

23:55

rural and urban communities. There is a loss of trust in institutions and their ability to solve problems.

24:02

I really was struck by the similarities - was one of my takeaways of spending

24:07

so much time out in rural areas over the last eight, nine months - and

24:11

those economic challenges are real. It isn't always conservation - it's always easy to look to

24:18

the environmental community. But within the timber industry, we've seen tremendous automation that

24:22

significant impacts on employment.

24:25

We see decisions for folks harvesting on private lands to export logs

24:30

overseas - business decisions made there.

24:33

There's a lot of factors that go into this, and I think Commissioner Franz

24:36

has done a good job of focusing in this area and I want to build on that.

24:40

And I think it's really ensuring we have balance in our timber

24:43

policies, we're partnering with local communities, and then really

24:47

seizing the opportunity that this energy transition has to provide jobs.

24:52

As they always say, these wind and solar jobs - you can't offshore those jobs

24:55

because you're maintaining and building them right here in our communities.

25:00

So what steps will you take to engage and empower communities

25:04

disproportionately impacted by environmental degradation, climate

25:08

change, and natural resource extraction?

25:12

There is so much work that needs to be done at the department in

25:15

this area - I spoke to that earlier - culture change that needs to happen.

25:19

I want to fundamentally change the way that the Department of Natural

25:22

Resources engages with communities.

25:24

Specifically, right now, I've been told there are 21 communication

25:28

staffers at headquarters. Sure, I'd love someone to help with speech writing, but as commissioner, I

25:32

don't need 21 communication staffers.

25:35

I want to repurpose a lot of those positions out to the regional offices,

25:40

not as communications positions, but as community engagement positions.

25:46

And hire people who are culturally competent, who are well-trained,

25:50

ideally from those communities where the regional offices are

25:53

located - where you really get to know the community and build that trust.

25:57

And then empower them - give them the resources and the authority to do

26:01

that really early upfront engagement, the kind we know that actually makes

26:05

a difference - so that they can actually work with the communities

26:08

and co-create processes and programs that really work for the community.

26:13

It's so badly needed. I also want to reform the Board of Natural Resources - that's the policymaking board

26:20

that makes decisions on the timber sales.

26:22

I would be the chair of that. I want to expand the membership of that.

26:26

Right now, it is just the trust beneficiaries we talked about.

26:30

But as I embrace an approach that we have responsibility to manage our

26:33

forests not just for the trust, but for the public - we ought to have

26:36

public representatives on there. I'd like to see there be a representative from someone from

26:41

a disproportionately impacted community, a marginalized community.

26:44

I'd like to see tribal representation, if they would like, on that board.

26:48

And then I want to implement substantial reforms to how that board operates.

26:54

The Superintendent of Public Instruction put forth a number of ideas in a

26:57

letter - people get frustrated, things are simple, I know this sounds

27:00

like small ball - but like not being able to get agendas until the night

27:04

before, never holding meetings in the community, limiting public testimony,

27:09

having to file Freedom of Information Act requests to get basic information.

27:14

So I'd like to put a little better staff resources there maybe instead - of

27:18

one less person promoting me on social media as commissioner, I could have

27:22

someone working full-time for that board with the community to engage.

27:26

I also think there are some changes to some of the policy stuff we do.

27:29

We have an environmental justice law in the state - it's called the HEAL Act.

27:33

And it requires the environmental agencies to do racial justice assessments on major

27:38

agency actions - that's oversimplified, but that's the thrust of what it does.

27:42

Well, that law exempted a whole bunch of the work at the Department of Natural

27:46

Resources - probably to get it passed.

27:49

But it doesn't say you can't do it, it just says it's not mandated.

27:52

So as commissioner, I intend to go beyond the requirements of the HEAL

27:56

Act and conduct those racial justice assessments on more of the major

28:01

agency actions of the department.

28:03

And I think that is a more formalized way to ensure we're getting systemic change.

28:08

Also, hiring decisions matter. I want to be very intentional in making sure that those populations most

28:15

impacted are aggressively recruited and brought into the employment pool

28:19

so that we can tap into that expertise.

28:23

And I mentioned earlier - I know it's crazy, but believe it or not, there are

28:27

literally a hundred different standing committees, advisory committees,

28:33

standing task forces that inform the work of this big, large department.

28:38

And there's been a call made in a report to try to diversify those

28:42

and fill vacancies, but not much work has been done to do that.

28:46

And so if we have created these formal pathways for officially

28:50

engaging, let's make sure those tools reflect the diversity of the states.

28:55

Those are some of the areas, but it really starts with a philosophy change in mindset

29:00

that we can engage, we should engage.

29:03

And that communication isn't about promoting the agency, it's

29:06

about listening and learning.

29:08

And I think that's one of my takeaways from time in public service, both

29:13

in the Legislature and in local government, especially representing

29:16

South King County - it is such a rich diversity within South King County.

29:22

I've represented probably the most diverse corner of our state for more

29:25

than 20 years and have found joy in immersing myself in communities of color

29:30

and immigrant and refugee communities, being present, building authentic

29:35

relationships and friendships, listening.

29:38

And working hard to deliver results - like King County eliminated the local match

29:42

requirement for parks and open space grants in low-income diverse communities,

29:47

or providing funding to an immigrant and refugee farming cooperative to

29:50

purchase farmland here in South King County to grow culturally relevant crops.

29:55

And so at DNR, my mission will be to incorporate equity and social

29:59

justice into all of our operations and programs using those different tools.

30:03

And I actually think it's important to approach this work with the same sense

30:07

of urgency and commitment to change that we do the other environmental

30:12

work - I put it on the same par in terms of responsibility and importance.

30:17

Now, there are great and necessary discussions about following the lead of

30:21

sovereign nations, and as you put it, the co-management role of tribes in managing

30:26

the natural resources of our state. What are examples of that not happening now, and what will

30:32

that look like in practice in decisions you make and policies you

30:37

undertake under your leadership?

30:40

I'll start by saying - as commissioner, I approach my

30:44

relationship with tribes with respect.

30:47

We have clear treaty obligations that legally need to be honored,

30:50

there's a co-management role that needs to be fully realized.

30:55

But this is not just a legal issue - we have a greater moral responsibility

31:00

to not turn away from the genocidal legacy of our colonization, the

31:05

intergenerational pain, a recognition of the racism that continues today.

31:10

And if we truly value human rights, then the vision of free, prior, informed

31:15

consent needs to be our aspiration.

31:18

In my work as commissioner, my relationship with tribes should

31:21

move us in that direction. My relationship will also be based on listening.

31:25

I understand Commissioner Franz undertook a substantial body of work to hear

31:30

from tribes as to how the agency could better fulfill its responsibilities.

31:34

But other than hiring a liaison, I don't know how much of that

31:37

feedback has been acted upon. And I think institutionalization of tribal needs throughout the agency is more

31:44

important than simply having a liaison.

31:47

And I think the key is robust communication and early consultation

31:51

- and consultation can't just be lip service, can't be checking a

31:54

box - we need to be engaging more in genuinely joint planning efforts.

32:00

And while I'm not familiar with all the work of the commission, I know

32:04

they have missed the mark in some areas around clean energy deployment, where I

32:08

think with earlier upfront engagement, they might have avoided some of the

32:12

conflicts with tribal governments in terms of impacts on sacred spaces.

32:17

And so I think it is earlier and more genuine joint planning - that's why

32:22

I said one of my early priorities is to work with tribes on a long-term

32:25

strategic plan for the use of public lands for clean energy development - we

32:29

need to protect those sacred spaces.

32:31

And we shouldn't be pitting clean energy against tribal sovereignty - I

32:34

think we can do that better.

32:37

I also think part of a definition of a respectful relationship with

32:41

the tribes means looking for those opportunities to incorporate indigenous

32:44

knowledge systems and cultural practices into our work in return, I think.

32:49

And so, I hope to approach this with those values, to institutionalize

32:55

this work - and it's something that I've had the opportunity to do in my

32:59

current role, working locally with the Muckleshoot tribe, as I've led the

33:03

King County Flood Control District. We've partnered well with them on protecting cultural resources as we do our

33:09

flood protection work and making sure that we're trying to meet their co-management

33:16

interest in restoring king salmon in the Green River and helping follow their lead

33:21

on how to meet those responsibilities. So it's something I look forward to and continue to build upon

33:26

the work that is being done. Is expanding the urban tree canopy a priority for you?

33:33

Absolutely. When I was in the Legislature, we passed legislation that created the program

33:38

at DNR that provides the technical assistance and development of model

33:42

ordinances and the grant programs that fund this work, but it was also

33:47

during the depression - or I called the recession - in the late 2000s.

33:51

And so it never really got funded until recently.

33:53

And I think a few years back, the Legislature finally put

33:56

some money into that program. The reason it's so important is we know that there is a correlation between trees

34:05

and green spaces in a community and all kinds of positive outcomes around public

34:09

health and well-being and achievement.

34:13

And people use the term tree equity - we actually score communities

34:17

based on how equitable things are.

34:19

And it's why - I mentioned already on the King County Council - I sponsored

34:23

legislation that waived the local match requirement for investments in open space

34:30

by King County, parks and open space in areas that were low income and diverse.

34:35

And I know the department is trying to prioritize these grants similarly,

34:39

using some public health maps to prioritize those - but I think it's

34:44

been a funding limitation thus far. I certainly will preach from the mountainside the importance of this work

34:50

and promoting the model ordinances and the financial assistance, educational

34:55

assistance, technical assistance. We do grants.

34:58

We've got internships. We've got Arbor Day celebrations.

35:02

And they're all aimed at trying to help urbanized areas plant more trees

35:07

and have tree cover, particularly in those areas that need it the most.

35:11

There is a disparity - I was very privileged in my life - I grew up in

35:14

a stable middle-class household, I was put in the Boy Scouts, I spent all my

35:19

summers in high school and college out on the Hood Canal teaching environmental

35:23

science, a couple summers leading week-long treks to the North Cascades.

35:27

But at the same time, you can walk through SeaTac or Tukwila and see

35:31

young people whose idea of getting outdoors is unfortunately in a hot

35:36

bat parking lot with broken glass, running around with cars driving by.

35:41

And I think it is so important that young people, in particular, have the

35:48

opportunity to experience the beauty of the outdoors, green spaces, safe spaces.

35:54

It's how you'd create the next generation of environmentalists - not

35:57

by preaching at people, but by exposing people to it - so getting

36:00

people out in the outdoors, but also creating communities that are livable.

36:05

The public health risk of heat is increasingly growing as a risk.

36:10

And it's one part of a healthy community - we've got food deserts, we

36:14

have underfunded infrastructure, and it's in these same communities that we

36:19

also often see a lack of green spaces.

36:21

And I think it's part of what weaves together to have a healthy,

36:25

safe, welcoming place to live.

36:28

And so I'm excited about that part of the job.

36:30

I also think it deserves more attention - because you mentioned it with the earlier

36:34

question about economic development - there is a lot of work being done in

36:39

rural areas by the Department of Natural Resources, but taxpayers all over the

36:43

state pay into this department and agency.

36:47

Urban areas should get a return on that investment.

36:49

We, as a department, should be paying attention - yes, to those rural areas.

36:53

But we also should find ways to make sure the people in the

36:56

urban areas get that return. Obviously, there's a broader interest - climate change, biodiversity impacts

37:01

everyone - clean air, clean water. But the amount we've spent is a pittance.

37:05

Even with the big increase recently, I think that went from maybe $500,000 to

37:08

$5 million, maybe a couple staffers - we could be doing so much more in this

37:13

area to benefit our urban communities. Now, DNR has a huge fire department, but also uses incarcerated

37:21

labor to help fight fires. But they don't get the full pay - now they get minimum wage - but they

37:26

don't get the same wage as others, they don't get hazard pay, or all

37:30

of the protections that others have. What's the correct path forward to you?

37:35

The little bit I know about the program is it's generally a good one.

37:38

I am not and would not support things like chain gangs - those are racist

37:45

and dangerous and not a good idea.

37:49

The best I can tell is - this is designed and operated to be a

37:55

transitional program to employment post.

37:58

It's a job skills program that has some parameters around it - they

38:01

are paid - I would want to get in and look at those safety provisions.

38:04

Of course, they ought to be compensated fully for their work, I believe

38:07

- that would take some legislative appropriations to do that - and it's

38:11

something we may want to pause and slow down until we make sure all

38:14

those safety standards are in place. I think there are opportunities - the other area I think could use some work,

38:20

in talking to someone who either had participated in it, is making sure

38:24

that connection post-release happens.

38:28

If we're just doing this for cheap labor, that's wrong.

38:32

If we are doing this to help people develop job skills and transition into

38:37

good paying career opportunities upon release, that's good and we need to

38:43

make sure that's what we're doing.

38:46

And I don't know enough about the details of the program - some of

38:49

the initial feedback I got was that that's what it's designed to

38:52

be, that's what it's trying to do. But obviously, we need to - there should be no comparison in terms of safety.

38:59

And I would welcome the chance to try to make sure that the compensation

39:03

is more fair than what they're doing, but I think the real need also is

39:06

to ensure that there's that link.

39:09

That we really do have pathways to employment - because we're facing

39:14

a cliff in this department, an employment cliff, in some good

39:16

high-skilled jobs and good-paying jobs.

39:19

Wildland wildfire fighters - these are really good-paying positions,

39:24

even the ones that aren't fully credentialed firefighters, and we

39:27

need more people into that pathway. We need to diversify it.

39:31

That wildfire force is white and male, and yet they're really good jobs.

39:35

Strategies that help make sure we are creating a culture that supports

39:40

all firefighters and creates pathways for employment would benefit as well.

39:45

So I have more learning to do about it, but the philosophy I approach

39:48

is - Cheap labor, chain gangs bad.

39:52

Good structured programs to help people transition to

39:55

employment post-release good.

39:57

And i'll do everything i can to push it in that direction.

40:02

Now, you've alluded to this, but the role of Commmisioner of Public Lands involves

40:07

management of a very large department with many different elements, a lot

40:12

of people doing a lot of complex work.

40:15

What experience do you have managing people and managing large organizations

40:20

to prepare you for this role? Sure.

40:23

Many people may not know this, but in my current role as Chair of the King County

40:27

Council, I supervise about 200 employees and 5 legislative branch agencies.

40:33

So the agency heads report to me, as does the Chief of Staff to the Council

40:38

- so I'm responsible for overseeing the administrative, HR, budget, and

40:42

vision for this branch of government. And while DNR is a much larger agency, I certainly have developed and I believe

40:49

demonstrated strong executive management and organizational leadership skills.

40:54

It's going to be important to me to hire excellent staff to fill in those strengths

40:59

where I have weaknesses - I think that's true of any commissioner - and I recognize

41:04

that the size of this agency means the commissioner can't do everything.

41:07

But I can set the vision, set the direction, hire exceptional staff,

41:14

empower them to do their jobs, ensure people are trained and supportive.

41:18

And then the role of the commissioner is to be the chief spokesperson,

41:22

the chief lobbyist to resolve those conflicts that come to my desk

41:25

that don't get resolved beneath. And I think that's where my experience in local government and the Legislature

41:31

comes in handy, so I think I bring a good mix of experience that's

41:35

well-suited to lead this agency. Now, there have been concerns raised with candidates in this race about donations

41:43

received from various industries. Some have received donations from the timber industry.

41:48

Others have suggested that donations from environmental organizations, or

41:52

people who may stand to benefit from the lack of monetization from timber

41:58

but other areas may be a concern. Do you feel that these are valid concerns?

42:02

And what do you think that donors say about a candidate?

42:07

Well, just for way of background, I've made the decision - I believe I'm the

42:12

only leading candidate who's made the decision - not to accept donations

42:16

from timber companies, their corporate executives, and their lobbyists.

42:21

And it's because it's the one area where we have a little bit of a regulatory

42:26

role, through the Forest Practices Board. And I think historically in the agency - not aiming at any one commissioner

42:32

- but just from a cultural standpoint, that industry really has an oversized

42:38

influence on the decisions there.

42:40

And so it was important to me to be independent and that's why I did it.

42:44

And so I'm proud to be - despite that - to be very successful fundraising,

42:50

leading the candidates by a wide margin. And I've done that through a large number of grassroots donations - maybe

42:56

twice as much, many as any other candidate from all corners of the state.

43:01

I find it hard to criticize that because members of the public

43:05

care about the environment, that there's something untoward about

43:10

accepting individuals' contributions.

43:12

The funny story, apparently at the - King County Democrats interviewed

43:18

candidates, and one of the candidates who's working closely with the

43:22

timber industry got called out for those financial contributions.

43:27

He responded to the calling out - Well, Dave's getting money from a lot of environmentalists.

43:32

And they snap back and say - Well, that's us - meaning that's the people.

43:34

And so I would think if one interest group had some larger

43:39

donation, it's worth looking at. But we have contribution limits here, and I'm proud to be the candidate of

43:47

the environmental community - to have the sole endorsement of Washington

43:51

Conservation Action and the Sierra Club, and more importantly, their tens of

43:55

thousands of members around the state. The grassroots environmental movement has been the backbone of my campaign.

44:02

Before I decided to run for office last summer, I spent a couple months traveling

44:05

the state, meeting primarily with grassroots leaders in the conservation

44:09

movement - sitting at a park in Chimacum under the trees, meeting at

44:13

a library in Port Angeles, coffee shop

44:18

in Yakima - listening to people who are impacted by the

44:21

decisions of this department. And I think having a large number of grassroots donors who care about the

44:29

public interest in the management of our public lands is something I'm proud of

44:33

and I wouldn't be ashamed of that at all. And so I'm proud to not take contributions from the industry that we would regulate.

44:41

And instead strive to fund a campaign through the grassroots, through a

44:47

people-powered movement from people who care about the environment

44:50

and care about our public lands. Now, as we move to close this interview, what do you say to people who are trying

44:59

to decide between you and your opponents?

45:02

What sets you apart and why should they support you?

45:05

I bring strong environmental and social justice values, and committing to make

45:10

the kind of transformational change that's urgently needed at this agency.

45:15

But values and commitment aren't enough. What separates me is that I also bring a relevant background - a

45:20

lifetime of experience, and a long record of accomplishments

45:23

on natural resource issues. At the end of the day, I'm the candidate ready to hit the ground running.

45:28

I'm the candidate who's put forward specific innovative policy

45:31

proposals - from how we protect our mature legacy forests to the

45:35

creation of a new clean energy trust.

45:37

I bring the values, the passion, the commitment to transformational change.

45:42

But also the experience, the background, the record of accomplishments,

45:45

executive leadership experience. One thing we haven't talked about - the life experience as a member

45:50

of a marginalized community - when elected, I'll be the first out LGBT

45:54

statewide executive officeholder in the history of the state.

45:59

And by far the strongest campaign that can beat Republican Jaime Herrera Beutler.

46:04

I'm energizing the base with clear progressive environmental agenda, the

46:07

chance to make history by electing the first out LGBT executive officeholder.

46:12

But my strong background, record of accomplishments, breadth of support,

46:16

history as an effective pragmatic suburban leader positions me best to win over

46:21

the widest range of statewide voters.

46:24

We cannot take this general election for granted.

46:27

Jaime Herrera Beutler is a very credible threat to win - her

46:31

impeachment vote positions her uniquely to try to make inroads with

46:35

independents and moderate Democrats.

46:37

And when you look at folks like Dino Rossi, Rob McKenna - they came

46:41

very close to winning statewide.

46:44

How? By making inroads in the suburbs in central Puget Sound - and the working

46:48

class suburbs like South King County, Pierce County are the most fertile

46:51

grounds - and polling has shown that there's a need to target those

46:55

moderate voters in the suburbs of King, Pierce, and Snohomish County.

46:58

I'm the only candidate who has demonstrated time and time again

47:01

the ability to win over moderate suburban voters and do it by

47:05

a wide margin, outperforming other Democrats in the suburb.

47:08

And so I'm the candidate who can hold on to suburban independents and moderate

47:12

Democrats and beat Jaime Herrera Beutler.

47:17

I also think it's important we ought to consolidate behind

47:20

the environmental community. I am the only candidate that's been endorsed by Washington Conservation

47:25

Action, the only candidate being supported by the Sierra Club.

47:28

I'm the progressive candidate in this race with the sole endorsement

47:32

of Fuse Washington, our largest statewide progressive group.

47:35

And I'm going to build that big multicultural progressive working class

47:40

coalition to not only protect our public lands, win this campaign, but move

47:45

forward a positive agenda for environment and social justice at this department.

47:50

Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

47:53

Look forward to following this race in the months to come - certainly

47:56

an excited and competitive one. Thank you - it was great.

48:01

Thank you for listening to Hacks & Wonks, which is produced by Shannon Cheng.

48:05

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48:27

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48:31

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48:43

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