0:13

Welcome to Hacks & Wonks. I'm Crystal Fincher, and I'm a political consultant and your host.

0:18

On this show, we talk with policy wonks and political hacks to gather insight

0:22

into local politics and policy in Washington state through the lens of those

0:26

doing the work with behind-the-scenes perspectives on what's happening, why it's

0:30

happening, and what you can do about it. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get the full versions

0:34

of our Friday week-in-review show and our Tuesday topical show

0:38

delivered to your podcast feed. If you like us, the most helpful thing you can do is leave a review

0:43

wherever you listen to Hacks & Wonks. Full transcripts and resources referenced in the show are always

0:48

available at officialhacksandwonks.com and in our episode notes.

0:52

Today, we're focusing on a critical position in Washington state that

0:56

will be on our ballots this year - the Commissioner of Public Lands.

1:00

This elected official leads the Department of Natural Resources, with over 2,500

1:05

employees across 11 divisions, managing a vast portfolio that impacts our state's

1:10

environment, economy, and communities.

1:13

The Commissioner oversees management of 5.6 million acres of public

1:17

lands - from coastal waters and aquatic reserves, to working forests and

1:21

farms, mining operations, commercial developments, and recreation areas.

1:26

They're responsible for generating revenue from these lands to support

1:30

local services, while also preserving habitats and addressing climate change.

1:35

These lands currently generate over $200 million annually for schools and public

1:40

services like libraries and hospitals.

1:42

The Commissioner manages our state's largest on-call fire department,

1:46

responsible for preventing and fighting wildfires on 13 million acres

1:50

of state and private forest lands. This is increasingly critical as climate change intensifies wildfire

1:56

seasons, affecting air quality and public safety across Washington.

2:01

Ecological responsibilities include salmon habitat restoration, protection

2:05

of endangered species, and enhancing carbon sequestration in our forests.

2:10

They also manage the geoduck fishery and oversee the removal of

2:13

derelict vessels from state waters. The Commissioner plays a key role in climate resilience, developing

2:19

strategies to adapt state lands and their uses to changing

2:22

environmental conditions and needs. They work closely with the tribal governments and sovereign nations

2:28

- honoring treaty rights and fostering collaborative land management.

2:32

For rural residents, the Commissioner's policies directly impact job

2:36

opportunities in forestry, agriculture, and emerging clean energy sectors.

2:40

Urban and suburban folks are affected, too - from the expansion of urban tree

2:44

canopies that cool our cities to the preservation of recreation areas where

2:48

we camp, hike, and connect with nature.

2:51

This position affects everyone in our state from the air we breathe to the

2:54

economic vitality of rural communities.

2:57

It's vital for voters to understand the significance of this role as you

3:01

make your choice for this position on your ballot in this August primary

3:05

and November general election. To discuss his vision for this important position, we're joined by Patrick

3:11

DePoe, a former commercial fisherman, land manager and elected member of the

3:16

Makah Tribal Council, current Director of Tribal Relations for the Department

3:20

of Natural Resources, and candidate for Commissioner of Public Lands.

3:24

We'll explore Patrick's approach to balancing economic needs with

3:27

environmental protection and how he aims to address pressing issues

3:31

like wildfire prevention, climate change, and tribal engagement.

3:35

Welcome to the show. Great to be here.

3:38

I appreciate the invite and really loving to dive into some of these questions.

3:41

This is beautiful. Absolutely.

3:44

So starting out, what made you decide to run for Commissioner of Public Lands?

3:49

So my name is Patrick Finedays DePoe.

3:52

My Native given name is Ye•ʔiɫtin - it means "The One

3:54

Everybody Knows and Talks To." I grew up in Neah Bay - the northwest tip of Washington - the Makah Reservation.

3:59

You cannot go any farther to the northwest tip - you can stand out at Cape Flattery,

4:05

look to your right and see Canada, look straight and see the Pacific Ocean.

4:08

We are definitely an isolated community.

4:10

We are definitely a community that is - truly understands the importance of

4:15

sustainability of our natural resources.

4:18

I say that from a management perspective.

4:21

I say that from an economic perspective.

4:24

But I also say that from a heritage perspective, a spiritual

4:28

perspective, a cultural perspective. And when we're talking about the importance of our natural resources, this

4:34

is something my heart's always been in. This is something my passion has always been about.

4:39

And you can just honestly look through my resume and see, whether it was 20 years

4:44

as a first responder - I had my captain's license, so I ran ships up and down the

4:47

coast for oil response - I was called out in the middle of the night sometimes for

4:52

whether it was fire response or whether it was for some illegal dumping situation

4:56

happening on our terrestrial lands. I was a tribal leader - natural resources was always my charge.

5:02

Treasurer of the Northwest Indian Fish Commission, chairman of the Natural

5:05

Resources Committee for National Congress of American Indians, co-chair

5:09

of the Natural Resources Committee for Tribal Interior Budget Council.

5:13

And the list really goes on and on, but what I think it really

5:17

amplifies is - not only my love for our natural resources, but also my

5:21

experience that I bring to this. And when we really get down to it, it's always said - We're doing this

5:27

for our seven generations out, eight generations out, and to make sure that

5:30

our future generations have the ability to enjoy the same things that we do.

5:35

And I say that, but also recognizing that there's a lot of issues that

5:39

are currently at play that are putting those resources in a strain.

5:43

And that we need to recognize that, we need to understand what are the ways we

5:47

can work to rebuild, what are the ways we can work to advocate for, and what are the

5:51

ways we can work to partnership on making sure that we're bringing those resources

5:56

the amount of attention that's needed. Absolutely.

6:00

So what are the biggest challenges facing the Department of Natural Resources?

6:05

Oh, the climate crisis right off the bat.

6:07

The climate crisis increased wildfire.

6:10

If you look - in 2014, you can see that we've lost over a

6:13

million acres of land to wildfire. Now, because of proposed legislation that DNR was able to put forward a few

6:20

years back, it resulted in a lot of extra funding that we were able to prioritize

6:24

directly towards our fire response. I think we went from 3 or 4 helicopters to about 38, so we were able to

6:31

definitely increase our response time. And I bring up that number in 2014 because although it was a million

6:36

acres, this last year we've seen record number of wildfires, but

6:40

we're still under 220,000 acres.

6:44

Now 220,000 acres, when you say only - that's still a lot of acres, that's

6:49

still a lot of land - continuing to build that, continuing to prioritize

6:52

those things, continuing to understand. The impact that this agency really has - not just on the climate,

6:59

but also on the people that are sustained by those resources.

7:02

When I speak about that, it gets into my own cultural background - the

7:06

ceremonial part of it, the spiritual part of it - for our salmon, for our

7:09

four-legged animals, and the forests.

7:11

And climate crisis, fire response, shoreline management - these are

7:18

all top priorities - creation of jobs in our rural communities.

7:23

But also it hits a little bit deeper for me too, in a sense that - and it

7:27

blows me away - that there is never in the history of Washington State or the

7:32

Pacific Northwest for that matter, been a statewide elected Native American.

7:36

Somebody that's actually from this state, that's an enrolled member,

7:39

that actually grew up understanding the importance of these resources

7:43

on that level that we talk about. And so it's also about environmental justice for me.

7:49

It's also about representation for me.

7:52

It's also about showing our future generations that there's paths to

7:55

these positions that impact our lives. And I'm hoping that - and I don't want to say I hope - I'm excited about the

8:02

opportunity to blaze that trail and open up that door and to be able to help other

8:06

folks in the same situation that I'm at. And talking about that big endorsement today - that's another

8:11

lady that definitely understands what it means to be a first.

8:14

And so we're making headway and I'm loving it.

8:17

You talked about the increased number of wildfires.

8:20

We're certainly seeing them. More are expected, especially as things heat up and dry out

8:27

because of climate change. Are we currently managing our forests and areas vulnerable to wildfire

8:34

as effectively as we need to?

8:37

And what will your approach be? Continue to build off of what we've already have done.

8:43

I can tell you that we're moving in the right direction because I

8:45

can draw the parallel from 2014 to today - despite the increase.

8:50

But there's other options out there that are available.

8:52

There's other ways that we can build off of what we have already seen.

8:55

There's new AI technology for early response.

8:58

There's a push for updated equipment for our firefighters who are putting

9:02

their lives on the line to protect not just our resources, but honestly,

9:06

people's neighborhoods, people's families, people's livelihoods.

9:11

And then there's also a part that I'm really passionate about is being

9:14

in a position to be able to bring an understanding of what tribal

9:17

ecological knowledge is and merge that into how we do things at DNR.

9:22

We have stories across Washington state of - people call them prescribed

9:25

burns, we call them cultural burns.

9:28

This isn't new to us. This is something we've been doing - we can say time immemorial - we

9:33

could talk about the different management of some of our forests.

9:36

For example, historically, where I'm from - in Makah Village - we

9:41

used to plant crabapple trees around our villages because crabapple tree

9:46

roots will go straight down, where other trees spread out like that.

9:52

And so when a fire would hit, it didn't have the ability to cross over

9:56

to another tree - they just basically went down into the ground - and it

9:58

was a matter of fire prevention. And whether that's relevant to practices that we can implement - there's teachings

10:07

out there, there's knowledge out there, there's that understanding out there.

10:09

When I talk about the tribes that have endorsed me - Yakima, Colville,

10:13

Lummi, Suquamish, Tulalip, Nisqually, I mean the list goes on - every

10:18

one of those communities has those teachings, they have that understanding.

10:21

And being able to open up a door to that - I was part of the Tribal

10:26

Ecological Handbook that was being updated from NOAA during COVID.

10:30

I was part of those consultations, and being able to integrate some

10:33

of our understanding on how they manage things was beautiful.

10:37

There's roadmaps, there's processes out there that I was directly a part

10:40

of that I can't wait to get into implementing in our department here.

10:45

And I want to talk about that a little bit more because in this race,

10:48

certainly by other candidates - they've talked about following the lead of

10:52

sovereign nations, the co-management role of tribes, how important it is to

10:57

involve, follow, and center our tribal communities in the management of the land.

11:04

What does that look like practically on the ground in the day-to-day work of DNR?

11:10

What would that look like under your administration?

11:14

Unfortunately, I've been present at a number of candidate forums with these

11:18

other folks that are in this race. And I've heard those words.

11:22

And they sound great. It sounds great coming from them.

11:26

And then when we get into what does that mean, it's just crickets - I don't

11:32

hear what I'm waiting - because I want to know what they're thinking as well.

11:35

Yes, tell me from an Indigenous perspective, a person that's from a

11:39

reservation, a person that served as a tribal leader that helped rewrite some

11:43

of these policies with tribal engagement. Explain to me how you would be able to bolster that.

11:49

And I'm not getting what I want, I'm not hearing what they're talking about.

11:53

For me, it's early. It's often.

11:55

It's meaningful. It's seriously just as simple as that.

11:59

It's not a check the box. It's not saying I talked to a representative or I talked to an Indian

12:04

from that community so I can move on. No, it has to be an actual part of a consultation.

12:09

And it means understanding what these different tribal nations'

12:12

consultation policies look like. Just because we have a consultation policy that I actually had the opportunity to

12:18

help write and build for the Department of Natural Resources - that is the

12:22

first of its kind that's in place now. I was on tribal government when they were building and putting it

12:26

together, and they consulted with us.

12:28

And I reached out, and I had a lot of my notes that were put into the policy.

12:32

And now that I'm in this position, it's lovely to see that.

12:34

But at the same time, other tribes have their own policies

12:39

- they're sovereign nations. You can't impose what you think is best for them.

12:43

You have to be able to have those conversations.

12:45

You have to be able to reach out. You can't say - Well, I think these Indians will really like this.

12:50

You know, it's a matter of being able to call them up and have that chat and be

12:54

able to understand the actual protocols that are in place to make that happen.

12:58

Honestly, I've been hearing so many different land acknowledgements

13:01

through this process - blows me away.

13:04

Okay, yes, you're acknowledging that we've been here stewarding

13:08

these lands since time immemorial. Well, I'm giving you an opportunity right now to put some action

13:14

behind that acknowledgement. Prove it to me. You have a candidate that has been entrusted with endorsements and

13:19

support overwhelmingly from tribal nations across Washington State.

13:23

If you're really truly about what you're saying - Well, here's that chance.

13:28

Let me see you put that to action. And so who better to understand that and to know that than somebody that actually

13:36

lives that life, somebody that actually comes to this position that's helped

13:40

write these policies, somebody that comes to this position that has advocated for

13:44

those policies, somebody that's come to that position that has interacted with

13:47

government agencies at every level - from the state to the feds to the national,

13:51

international levels - in regards to what it means to be integrated into these

13:55

policies and processes, than an actual tribal member who has that background?

14:01

Now, beyond wildfires, how would you address other natural hazards,

14:05

such as landslides and floods that affect state-managed lands?

14:10

Absolutely. We have our processes. We have our different ID teams.

14:14

We have our Forest Practice Board. We have our adaptive management process.

14:18

We have our timber, fish, and wildlife relationship.

14:21

And I bring all of these up because it's important for everybody else

14:26

to understand too how these came to be - you're going back to the 80s there.

14:30

Another indigenous person came into DNR, Billy Frank Jr., and said - We

14:34

need to figure this process out. He brought the tribes together, he brought the industry, the state, the

14:39

environmentalists - and sat them all down and we created these processes

14:43

that helped us adapt, that helped us change when we need to change.

14:47

That relationship, I'll say, is fractionated at the moment, but I strongly

14:52

believe I'm a candidate that can put the focus and the priority where it needs to

14:56

be in order to get this back in a working manner that is going to be effective

15:00

for what we need to come out of it. And so sometimes it's working directly with our tribal nations - and I say

15:06

that sometimes, I actually mean all the time - in regards to that understanding

15:11

goes back to that tribal ecological knowledge, goes back to the importance.

15:15

Because the last thing you want to do is gloss over something and

15:19

end up in a position where you have a landslide that goes into a

15:21

fish-bearing stream - that could shut down an entire generation of salmon.

15:26

If that shuts down - your salmon are three to four-year returns - you

15:29

lost a whole year, and that has effects for generations to come.

15:35

And so it's about doing things appropriately, it's about understanding

15:39

all the different perspectives in this, but really making the decisions based off

15:42

of the sound science and the integration of that outreach that needs to happen.

15:48

Are there specific strategies or tactics you would undertake

15:53

to reduce the frequency or severity of landslides or floods?

15:58

Well, floods, for example - a lot of floods is due to rainfall - it just

16:02

really depends on what you're talking about with floods, but understanding

16:05

the importance of our instream flows. For me, with regards to some of our slope stability processes - I would

16:12

like to see some more integration with those folks that are living right there.

16:15

I'm talking about tribal nations that have their own department that's

16:19

dedicated to that - they have their own science that's dedicated to that.

16:23

There's some statutory requirements that need to be looked at and examined

16:26

and to see how you can integrate some of those things - that's

16:28

something I'm very familiar with. I understand some of those blocks and some of those hurdles, and I can't wait

16:34

to be able to dive right into that. Now, a major responsibility of your role is managing the timberlands of

16:42

the state, and a very large amount of land that you are both called to

16:48

manage revenue from - and maximize the revenue that you get from it - and

16:53

also preserve and protect that land.

16:56

How do you balance the need to produce revenue with the need to

17:02

protect and preserve this land?

17:06

It goes right back to the regulations that we have in place.

17:09

It goes right back to the processes where I was speaking to you about the

17:12

TFW process, the adaptive management process, the Forest Practice Board.

17:17

But it also goes back to making sure that the adequate voices and the needed

17:21

voices are at the table to be heard. And I say that because we have the most restrictive harvest in

17:29

the nation, in Washington state.

17:31

I know that, but compared to private, it's not the same.

17:34

We could even go to riparian protection, for example - the

17:37

state has more protective riparian zones than private practices.

17:41

But it's making sure that we're building those different protections

17:44

in where they're needed and that we're following that process.

17:47

You have a third-party scientific committee titled CMER [Cooperative

17:50

Monitoring, Evaluation, and Research Committee] that helps us make some of these decisions so it's not a biased position.

17:54

But then you also have to understand the perspective that I bring to this race.

18:00

There's no other candidate that actually knows what this means to

18:02

the folks that live this life because they're outside the box saying - This

18:06

is what we think is best for you. Unfortunately, I've been saying this a little bit - I still don't like to

18:12

bring it up too often - but my cousin, Gyasi Ross, gave me a call back in 2010.

18:18

And he said - Patrick, I got a call and we need to head out to

18:20

Forks to do some suicide prevention conversations with the high school.

18:24

And I said - Pick me up, I'll meet you on the way.

18:27

Just, I'll be ready. And so he picks me up, we go to Forks High School - from Forks High

18:31

School, we go to Quileute High School. And we have these conversations - we meet with the teachers, we meet

18:35

with the kids, we pull them aside, we have talks with the students.

18:39

And unfortunately, there was spikes in suicide.

18:42

Well, I know that some of those spikes are a result of folks not being able to put

18:47

a roof over their head, not being able to put food on their table, not being able to

18:51

give their kids the adequate things they need in order just to go to high school.

18:55

And so when I talk about balance and sustainability, I understand that there

18:59

is a way to do both, and that there's processes that we have that just need

19:04

that attention and that, honestly, dedication to build up and strengthen.

19:10

And so that we can also take those things into account - if we continue to cut too

19:16

many trees, we're going backwards - we're not having the right protections in place.

19:22

If we take away cutting everything, we're going backwards - because

19:26

now you're talking about our public school trust, construction costs.

19:29

But it's not just our public schools - it's also our hospitals, our roads, our

19:33

libraries, our ports, our fire districts.

19:36

But even that is a skewed statistic because I've heard folks from King County

19:41

areas say that it's just a fraction of the cost that goes to our public schools.

19:46

Well, it's roughly about $200 million. And you might be right - it might be a fraction of the cost that goes

19:53

to the public schools in an urban area like Seattle because you have

19:58

a lot of other areas that they can supplement that funding from.

20:01

You get out here to Neah Bay - we're a reservation with the public

20:04

schools - you're talking now 40%.

20:08

You get out to other areas that are on the outskirts, you're talking 40%.

20:13

Now, with COVID funding pretty much dried up and gone, you have

20:16

school administrations that have to look and make decisions like - Do

20:20

I fix that hole in the roof? Or do I put in a new mental health counselor that we've been wanting?

20:27

Do I put the new doors that are needed for lockdowns?

20:31

Or do I look for affordable housing to try to attract more teachers to our area?

20:37

These are serious questions that all have to be taken into consideration, and I

20:42

only know that because I lived that life.

20:46

It's a difference in perspective. It's a difference in an environment.

20:49

It's a difference in understanding that this isn't just a job for me - this

20:54

is the life that I've been living my entire life, and it's the same for

20:58

folks from our reservations and our rural communities across the state.

21:02

And so when we're talking about, yes, protections

21:05

- absolutely, first and foremost.

21:08

But you cannot do that and forget about the people that are impacted.

21:11

Because now you're impacting, unfortunately, possibly people's lives.

21:16

And so it's about understanding where that balance is.

21:19

And because I have that lived experience, this is something

21:22

that I'm ready to jump right into. So I heard you say that Washington has some of the most restrictive

21:29

protections when it comes to conserving timber and public land.

21:33

Definitely, we're very familiar with the budget challenges that school districts

21:37

and public entities are going through - given that so much money does go to

21:43

funding public schools and other public entities, should we be increasing the

21:50

amount of revenue that we're looking to generate from our public lands?

21:55

And that is something that I'm working on right now - thinking outside the

21:59

box with our current commissioner in my position that I hold right now.

22:02

I'm the Tribal Relations Director for the Department of Natural

22:04

Resources - I currently work at DNR. So we're looking at different ways to expand, whether it's leasing out our land

22:10

in urban areas for affordable housing - that brings in more revenue to DNR.

22:15

Whether it's possibly different ways that we can prioritize some of our shoreline

22:18

leases, whether it's different areas that we could bring in more jobs support

22:22

to bolster some of the things that are happening in our rural communities.

22:25

I'm a big guy on education. I'm a big guy on trying to do whatever we can.

22:30

But at the same time, I know where our limits are.

22:33

And so we are a big role in that, but we can't be the sole role.

22:37

And there has to be ways that we can partner with folks, there has

22:39

to be ways that we can reach out, and then find different ways that we

22:43

can supplement some of this funding. But at the same time, continue to do everything that we can at our level.

22:48

But at the same time, like you said at the beginning, is balance.

22:51

At the same time, balancing those other environmental needs.

22:55

And so absolutely, we should be doing whatever we can to bring

22:59

more money into our schools. Now, DNR only has so much it can do, and we are the school construction costs.

23:06

But if there's other ways that other areas of schools can be impacted and

23:09

affected, then those are other things that we need to explore in legislation or

23:13

working directly with different partners that we can reach out to and engage with.

23:19

Now, the amount of revenue that DNR has been generating has been

23:23

reducing - most of that because the amount of timber revenue that we

23:28

receive from public lands has reduced.

23:31

Would you be looking to maintain that reduction?

23:33

Or when it comes to timber, are you also exploring potential

23:38

opportunities to increase revenue there? I am looking at all opportunities.

23:43

And when I talk about the jobs in our rural communities and how that

23:46

impacts their livelihoods - some of these folks, this is what

23:49

they've known their whole life. And so - am I looking to put them out of house and home?

23:53

No, absolutely not. But I also want to share a little bit more insight on this.

24:00

If we continue in a trend that is doing away with our harvest process,

24:06

we end up in a position where we still have to build homes - now we're

24:11

importing timber from other areas. If we're importing timber from Canada, now we're impacting my brothers

24:18

and sisters across the border that are being displaced at a rapid

24:21

pace as it is, our First Nations. If we import from other states in the U.S.

24:28

- well, those states don't have the same regulations that

24:31

we have here in Washington. So honestly, we're increasing the climate crisis instead of

24:35

what we're hoping to reduce. And in a sense, we're just doing [what] we want here, not looking at a

24:40

picture from a holistic perspective. And so it really comes back to that whole sustainability and balance position

24:48

- continuing to maintain, continuing to make scientific-based decisions, continuing

24:55

to understand where we can increase, where we might need more protections, and

25:01

then understanding the impacts that this position really has, not just on those

25:05

public schools, not just on those rural communities, but of all of Washington.

25:09

Because we have 2,000-plus acres that are in urban areas.

25:13

And we've looked at ways to build affordable houses in those areas - we

25:17

definitely need money for infrastructure. But we can play other roles - we've tried to put legislation forward that

25:23

would actually help us find other ways to fund some of these childcare deserts.

25:29

But being able to think outside the box takes somebody that understands what

25:33

that means from a lived experience, as well as that work experience.

25:37

And I say this - sort of be funny, but at the same time, I really

25:40

have some truth about it - is DNR, Commissioner of Public Lands, is not

25:44

like your typical elected position. Yes, you have that legislative part of it.

25:49

Yes, you have that political role. But at the end of the day, it's a land management position.

25:56

And you wouldn't elect somebody to OSPI that doesn't have

25:59

that teaching background. You wouldn't elect an attorney general without a law degree.

26:03

And this is what I've been doing my whole life.

26:07

When we're talking about land management, shoreline management, fire response,

26:12

working with the cities, counties, state and feds on the legislative issues - I

26:17

bring all of that with me to this. And I can say that I'm the only candidate that actually has that

26:21

experience, that has not been just a politician my whole life.

26:28

Now, there have been people who've raised concerns about donations that you've

26:32

received from the timber industry, which is an industry that you'll be regulating.

26:38

Do you think that's a valid concern, and how do you address that?

26:43

I think it's a concern that people are not reaching out to everybody.

26:47

Honestly, it should be a concern that folks are so caught up and

26:51

isolated on their own position that they're not talking to everybody.

26:54

Yes, I've received money from some of the folks that are definitely

26:58

impacted from this position. But how come nobody's talking about the folks from The Nature Conservancy

27:03

that's donated to my campaign? Or nobody's talking about the folks from WCA [Washington Conservation

27:07

Action] - I know who they've endorsed, but you can see members have donated to

27:10

my campaign - nobody's bringing that up.

27:13

And how come people are not talking about the tribal nations that have

27:17

entrusted me with that endorsement? Are you saying that our tribal nations should be second-guessed?

27:23

Are you saying that NGO organizations should be thought higher levels than our

27:28

sovereign nations that have been here since time immemorial, stewarding these

27:32

lands since time immemorial, taking care?

27:34

If it wasn't for the protection of treaty rights, even today, we would

27:38

not have salmon in Washington State. We would not have a lot of the protections that those treaties bring to them today

27:44

that all of Washingtonians benefit from.

27:47

And so when people try to focus in on - Well, Patrick has taken money.

27:51

Well, of course. I've taken money from anybody that'll listen to me, sit down, and have a

27:56

conversation, and feel that I'm the best person to support them because of

28:00

my qualifications and my background. And it's frustrating for folks to try to demonize me because, you know what?

28:08

I come from a community of 1,700 people - I don't have a stoplight in Neah Bay,

28:14

a traffic jam for us is five cars.

28:19

I'm from a reservation on the northwest tip of Washington

28:21

- you cannot go no farther. I don't have those 10, 15-year relationships with these big PACs,

28:28

these millionaires that people work with on a day-to-day basis.

28:32

So I need to get my message out there.

28:35

And if folks want to sit down and have a conversation with me - to accuse

28:39

me that my values or my principles have been bought, that's an insult.

28:43

I mean, it's not just an insult to me.

28:46

It's also an insult to those people that have entrusted me to be in

28:50

a position that I am right now. And I know I'm pretty passionate about this.

28:54

And so I just take a breath. And so I've seen that, though, and I've seen people try to use that.

29:02

And honestly, if they were willing to really listen to those nations - that

29:08

they get up and say that they want to support - then why wouldn't they back me

29:14

in a sense of, you know what, this is the first time that we've had a candidate at

29:19

this level with this experience that is ready to hit the ground at a full sprint.

29:25

Because these are the situations that people from my background get put

29:29

in - there's timber companies that outlie a number of our reservations

29:34

all throughout Washington State. We have partnerships.

29:37

We have understandings. We have, honestly, folks in our communities that work with them.

29:42

And if they're willing to say they will support a tribal candidate

29:46

because of your understanding of this position - well, honestly, that

29:51

helps us get our message out there. But if it's people saying that - Oh, we can't give that person any money or we

29:57

can't talk to them just because of that - then that's the environmental justice

30:01

aspect of it that keeps our people out of these positions to begin with because

30:05

they're not giving us an opportunity or a chance to even tell our story.

30:09

And so it's definitely a couple levels to that.

30:12

And I don't think it does anything but definitely shows that I'm not

30:17

in this position to turn my back and not have conversations with people.

30:20

I believe that it shows that I'm willing to work with everybody because if we're

30:24

attacking this climate crisis, if we're attacking social justice, environmental

30:28

justice, economic justice, then we have to be able to talk to everybody that

30:32

is directly impacted by this position. And so - no, I don't feel any type of way about this, that

30:39

folks have donated to my campaign. Honestly, I wish more people would donate to my campaign, whether it be one side

30:44

or the other, because you can see that my campaign, I'm definitely - they've

30:48

pegged me the underdog in this race. But to see these endorsements coming in, to see the support that's

30:54

building up - we've had a great month. Even in race and candidate forum, with Washington Education

30:59

Association - we are being asked questions by educators - I walked out

31:05

of there with the sole endorsement. People are definitely taking notice and I'm loving to see the momentum grow.

31:12

Now, there have also been concerns raised that you didn't vote in

31:18

many primary or general elections before running for office.

31:22

How do you address that? I address that with the same way I just addressed the other question

31:27

is - once again, you're trying to find ways to keep people from our

31:29

communities out of these positions. You can look at the statistics - I'm not immune to the same kind of

31:36

environment that I grew up in. The statistics will show you.

31:40

But it's also about - I've voted in all of my tribal elections.

31:45

I've been part of the election process. I've been an elected leader.

31:49

And at the same time, when you grow up in a community and continue to

31:54

look at people in these positions and you don't see representation

31:57

from yourself, representation from a reservation, representation from a

32:01

rural community, representation from the people that are directly impacted

32:06

- that's what I'm trying to change. I understand the importance of voting.

32:11

I understand it now. Absolutely.

32:14

And getting into this position? That's something that I can come back and start having conversations

32:20

in these high schools with these rural communities and tell them

32:23

- This is why we need to do this.

32:27

Unfortunately, that's not something that's been historically practiced.

32:30

People come out to these small communities and have those

32:33

one-on-one conversations with them. But because I'm from that community, I'm ready to do that for these

32:38

communities and be able to show them there's pathways, there's ways to

32:42

affect change, there's ways to affect the livelihoods in your community.

32:46

And this is how you do that by voting. And I didn't know that when I was your age, but I know that now

32:52

being in the position I am, and I need you to understand this.

32:55

And I can't wait to have that ability to be able to start that trail.

33:02

Now I want to talk about community more and talk about what steps you plan to

33:06

take to engage and empower communities who are disproportionately affected by

33:12

environmental degradation, pollution, and natural resource extraction.

33:19

Once again, it comes back to the proper engagement.

33:21

It comes back to the proper outreach. It comes back to making sure you have the adequate voices at the table.

33:27

I was honored to be appointed one of the first co-chairs of the Environmental

33:31

Justice Council, come out from the HEAL Act from - and I'll give her flowers

33:34

when I can, Senator Saldaña is amazing.

33:37

And she reached out while she was working on the HEAL Act,

33:39

and I helped wherever I could. And then I jumped on to the Environmental Justice Council as soon as I had

33:45

an ability to put my name forward. And I even told them - I don't have the time, I don't have the space to commit.

33:55

Please don't elect me a chair. And they didn't hear me clearly.

33:59

And so it was a unanimous vote for me to be one of the co-chairs.

34:04

And as that vote happened, I made the time - because that's important to do.

34:10

I made myself available - that's important to do.

34:12

People that are on that council and engaged with that council have

34:15

called me up to say - Patrick, I've always seen you punch above your

34:17

weight because I was in some of these meetings to see you do it and you

34:21

have my full support and endorsement. And I joke around about that because I'm a little bit of a heavier

34:26

guy, so punching above my weight isn't always the easiest, right?

34:30

But it really gets back to elevating the voices, elevating the people, and being

34:36

in a position where I'm not just elevating the people, I'm one of the people - it's

34:41

a whole different understanding and a whole different perspective that I bring.

34:45

How is somebody going to talk about environmental justice that only

34:48

reads about it or says it because it sounds like a catchy phrase?

34:52

I know the other candidates in this race, and I know their voting history, and I've

34:55

seen some of the things that they've done. I can't say that they've always had a 100% track record there.

35:01

I can say that I know personally and intimately what it means - from my

35:05

own perspective, from my own lived experience, and from my own actual work

35:09

resume - I know what having a voice at the table means and the importance

35:13

of having that voice at the table, especially when it impacts your lives.

35:16

Now, I want to talk about an issue that was actually in the news last

35:20

year, when it was announced that a State Department of Corrections

35:25

facility was about to close. And I believe the Commissioner for Public Lands expressed reservations because

35:33

inmates at that facility were involved with fighting fires - turns out that DNR

35:39

works with several incarcerated crews to help fight fires across the state.

35:46

But those crews earn a very low wage - often less than a dollar an hour - do not

35:50

get to transfer those skills in the same way that people outside do when it comes

35:56

to getting out and attempting to get a career, there are sometimes challenges

36:01

with safety, they don't get hazard pay.

36:04

What is your perspective on using incarcerated labor?

36:08

And how do you think things should continue or change in the future?

36:14

Well, I'm proud to say we're the first agency in the nation to actually

36:17

provide minimum wage to these folks. And I'm actually proud that they've actually been able to get

36:22

out there and help save lives, help risk their lives for people.

36:27

We had a pretty big forest fire out here in my community back

36:30

in 2022 at the end of November.

36:33

And I was part of Incident Command, but at the same time, just being who I am - I'm

36:41

in there talking with everybody - Okay, this is what's happening over here.

36:43

This is what's happening over here. I'm like, all right, you guys, I got to go.

36:49

I got to get a shovel, I'm going up there to the fire line,

36:52

I'm going to start digging. That's just my personality, right?

36:55

And so I'm up there in the hills. I have DNR helicopters over the top of us dumping water.

37:01

I have trees that are falling that are on fire.

37:03

And these guys are right there with us.

37:06

They were, fortunately - fortunately, they were available because my house was

37:12

not even a mile away from this fire, and it was coming towards our neighborhood.

37:16

So myself and the tribal chairman - at the time, I took half the neighborhood,

37:20

he took the other half the neighborhood. At 3 o'clock in the morning, we're pounding on doors.

37:24

Everybody wake up, there's a fire down the road, and we gotta be ready.

37:28

And as we're driving out, a huge tree falls in front of us.

37:34

And I mean, the tree has fire on it, we can't get out.

37:38

And it wasn't even a second question - snap of a finger - I

37:42

jumped out and I looked at these guys. I was like - You guys ready?

37:45

They started nodding their heads, grabbed their chainsaws, and we

37:48

started cutting that tree up. Everybody was the cadence - One, two, three - throwing those big

37:53

chunks of wood out of the road. And if they hadn't been there, we might have lost neighborhoods.

38:00

If they hadn't been there, we might have lost homes.

38:03

And the fact that they're willing to do and work - I've seen firsthand how

38:07

hard they were working, I've seen what they felt like to be able to be out and

38:11

doing something that is benefiting not just the environment, but people that

38:16

are literally, lives are in danger. And so I am in support of this.

38:21

I'm proud to see that we were able to increase some

38:24

of those wages to these guys. And we're short-staffed too.

38:30

And if this is a way for us to be able to provide more response, to

38:33

be able to provide an ability to work with these folks - absolutely,

38:38

I am in very strong support of it. It's similar to - I don't know if you know Dominique Davis, Dom

38:42

Davis - he has recently endorsed me.

38:45

And I sat down with Dom and we're having a conversation - I went

38:49

to University of Washington. And small world, we know a lot of the same people.

38:54

And then we're having this conversation - it's about bringing people that have that

38:58

experience to try to show folks that, hey, maybe this path isn't the best path.

39:02

Let me work with you - I've gone down this road, I've seen the impacts it has.

39:06

Let me show you there's another way. It's the same thing within DNR, is being able to say that - I have

39:13

this experience, I have this lived experience, I understand the impacts.

39:17

Let me show you there's ways that we can work to better our policies.

39:20

There's ways that we can work to provide more representation.

39:24

There's a different perspective when you bring somebody that actually comes

39:27

from that life into the conversation.

39:30

And seeing some of the beautiful things he's been able to do in the

39:33

Seattle area has just been amazing. Absolutely.

39:38

Is expanding the urban tree canopy a priority for you?

39:43

Yes, it's something else that we're currently working on right now within

39:46

DNR - whether it's trying to provide a little bit more shade for some

39:50

of these heat islands, whether it's being able to just bring a different

39:53

kind of a environmental feel. I'm fortunate because - when I say I'm fortunate I live in Neah Bay - I can

39:59

walk out my house and I look out and it's the Pacific Ocean, the Waatch River,

40:03

and the Hobuck Beach on the other side. I look in my backyard and there's the Cape, Cape Flattery, and it's nothing

40:10

but trees and this is a protected area.

40:14

And I understand the mental and physical health that that environment

40:18

can actually bring to people - you just walk out, you can feel it.

40:22

But being able to provide some more of that in different areas

40:25

in our urban - absolutely. It's a sad situation some folks get put into where they can't provide for

40:32

themselves, they end up on the street. And now, with raising temperatures at a level that's just ridiculous, those

40:38

people can't be forgot about either. So if we can do something that provides more shade - even our rivers in certain

40:44

areas, like the Duwamish, for example - Duwamish is a big river that has a

40:48

lot of impact with the Muckleshoot and Suquamish and those salmon runs.

40:51

And being able to provide canopy up and down that river - that's

40:54

still considered urban areas. But, yes, it's something that I still plan to continue and build upon, and

41:02

I feel that it is very important. And there's also a couple other things that I don't want to take as thunder

41:08

from him, but working with our own EJ - I love it, his name is EJ and he's

41:12

our environmental justice guy - but he has some great ideas as well in DNR to

41:17

build off of some of these things too. That's a different conversation though, but yeah.

41:22

Well, listeners of the show know that we are big fans of EJ Juarez.

41:28

EJ's awesome. He really is.

41:31

Now, the Department of Natural Resources is a very, very big department with

41:35

several areas, lines of business, thousands of people who work for the

41:40

department - it is a huge administration.

41:44

What experience do you have in managing people and administration

41:49

that prepares you for the role of leading this department?

41:53

Absolutely. I've managed over 400 employees for the Makah Tribe.

41:57

I've worked on local levels and national levels in regards

41:59

to our natural resources. I've chaired these committees and I've worked to affect legislation

42:04

that has a direct impact, whether it was on our marine resources or on our

42:08

resources in our terrestrial areas. When I say that I'm the most experienced - most of the candidates

42:13

- has a direct report right now to our current Commissioner of Public Lands.

42:15

I'm a direct report to her by RCW that lays out the Tribal

42:19

Relations Director as a report to the Commissioner of Public Lands.

42:23

And so I understand the grants, I understand the in-kinds, I

42:27

understand employee, I understand that employee morale is huge.

42:33

But I also want to point out I understand that we're also the least

42:36

diverse agency in Washington State, and here, let me give you an example

42:41

- I doubled our tribal employment, and I've been there for a year.

42:45

Doubled. You know what that means?

42:47

I hired one other Indian - that's intense.

42:50

And that's not for the sake of intentional.

42:54

It's just for the sake that I feel that we can do better in some of our outreach to

42:59

different projects and different partners. A friend of mine I grew up with has an organization in Seattle

43:04

called Young Professionals of Seattle - his name is Ahmad Corner.

43:07

He does some of the outreach and recruitment, and he has some of these

43:10

different things that he looks for. This is my brother.

43:12

Like, this is my friend friend. This is a guy that - we went to college together.

43:16

We went to Edmonds - I went to Edmonds Community College and then I went

43:19

to the University of Washington. And we've known each other for the past 24+ years.

43:24

And to see him grow and to see him being able to find different ways to employ our

43:28

BIPOC community - those are the kind of people that I want to be able to reach

43:31

out to and say - Hey, I need your help. Let's get some of these job posters out to these different areas.

43:36

My cousin Gyasi - his boy, he goes to Rainier Beach - Koodzi, which if

43:41

you guys ever watching basketball, you got to check out my nephew.

43:44

He's amazing on the court. But being able to get to some of those high schools for job fairs - we are doing

43:49

that, we are expanding that right now. We have a department that is actually dedicated to working with high schools.

43:55

I work directly with there when it comes to that tribal outreach part.

43:59

So it's building off of these programs. It's being able to show folks that these jobs are available, these

44:03

jobs exist, there's career pathways. It's not just forestry work at DNR - it's also admin, it's also HR,

44:10

it's also - I mean, the list goes on - environmental justice, we have

44:14

a communications department, we have external affairs, there's uplands,

44:18

there's fire response, there's so many different available opportunities.

44:24

It's just about making sure people know that they're available and that we're

44:27

reaching out to those communities as well. And sometimes not everybody's getting on the state website just to look to see

44:33

what jobs are available because they don't think that DNR might have something that's

44:37

tailored to what they're looking for. And so it's being able to create those relationships and once

44:43

again, it's even something that I've seen myself growing up.

44:46

It's just about being noticed and being able to show that these are out there.

44:50

So let's find these ways to create these pipelines, and it's exciting.

44:55

Absolutely. Well, as we close today, what do you say to people who are trying to make a

45:00

decision between you and your opponents?

45:02

You have several of them leading up to the primary in August.

45:07

What do you tell them about what makes you different and why they should support you?

45:13

Right off the bat, I would just say my experience.

45:16

You talked about land management, you talked about employment - I

45:21

literally have all of that experience - that's in my resume.

45:24

I've led incident command centers in a sense of being that tribal leader - during

45:29

COVID, especially - finding ways to think outside the box, understanding the

45:33

hurdles, understanding the opportunities.

45:36

I bring all that with me, but at the same time, I also want folks to - in

45:41

addition to understanding that, realize that this is historical.

45:46

We're trying to build a new pathway here that has never existed before and that

45:52

folks need to recognize - all you can do is look up my background and you can see.

45:57

You can talk to the folks that have endorsed me and you can see.

46:01

Don't get caught up on somebody's rhetoric because they have a louder

46:03

voice than me because of people that they've been around all their lives.

46:07

Take a second and actually look into my background and you'll see that I

46:10

have the qualification that's needed, I have the experiences that needed.

46:16

And I have something completely different - it's also the lived experience to bring

46:20

this position, to understand the issues that we're dealing with firsthand

46:24

on a completely different level than any other candidate in this race.

46:28

And I am the only candidate that does not need on-the-job training.

46:34

I've actually been reached out by candidates in this race, and

46:39

they've asked me to drop out and said that we'll create a job for you

46:44

- I mean, that blows me away. But I also think that that should provide some more insight to folks

46:50

of - even the other candidates know what I'm qualified to do.

46:54

Well, thank you so much for your time today.

46:56

We will be following this race eagerly in the coming months and wish you the best.

47:01

And this was beautiful, Crystal. Anytime you want to have a chat, I would love to.

47:07

Thank you so much. Have a good one.

47:10

Thank you for listening to Hacks & Wonks, which is produced by Shannon Cheng.

47:14

You can follow Hacks & Wonks on Twitter @HacksWonks.

47:17

You can catch Hacks & Wonks on every podcast service and app - just type

47:21

"Hacks and Wonks" into the search bar. Be sure to subscribe to get the full versions of our Friday week-in-review

47:27

shows and our Tuesday topical show delivered to your podcast feed.

47:31

If you like us, leave a review wherever you listen.

47:33

You can also get a full transcript of this episode and links to the

47:37

resources referenced in the show at officialhacksandwonks.com and

47:41

in the podcast episode notes. Thanks for tuning in - talk to you next time.