0:01

Previously on Happy Face. How

0:05

did Keith get away with it for so long? Laverne

0:08

A. Pavlonak is accused of four counts

0:10

of aggravated murder, rape, sex

0:12

abuse, kidnapping, and felony

0:15

murder for the death of Tanya A. Bennett.

0:17

Pavlonak fed police anonymous tips

0:19

that led to the arrest of her long time boyfriend,

0:22

John A. Sasnovski. Laverne

0:25

was trying to get rid of her boyfriend.

0:27

She convinced them by saying she had

0:29

participated in the murder with John

0:32

SZNASKI. If it weren't for the anonymous

0:34

letter, the case might well have remained forgotten

0:37

quote Honor. About January twentie

0:41

picked up Shania Bennett and took her home.

0:44

The name is Tanya, not Sonya

0:46

Bennett, and she was killed according

0:49

to the experts who examined the body on

0:51

the night of January one, not Melissa.

0:54

And I reached out to Jim McNeely, a retired

0:56

detective from the Maultnoma County Sheriff's

0:59

Department. He knew what he was talking about, and

1:01

he had information on those murders that hadn't

1:03

been in the papers. Jesperson kind of saw

1:05

you as a partner in this. We

1:08

were conspiring to prove that

1:10

he was guilty. There's always

1:13

been one person Melissa has been afraid

1:15

to meet, the son of Jesper,

1:17

since last victim, Don Findley.

1:20

We spoke for a couple of hours and I

1:22

was finally able to convince him

1:25

to meet you. And then

1:33

no, no shame, oh

1:36

sh oh

1:41

nfe through. There's

1:55

an almost numbing quality

1:57

to hearing Keith describe his crimes. The

2:00

details are almost too horrific to

2:02

fully absorb. We know the way

2:04

he tied women up, how he beat

2:06

raped and stopped them from breathing, and

2:09

yet some seem more shocked to hear

2:11

how he tortured a cat than how

2:13

many women's lives he took. But

2:16

over a period of five years from

2:20

Keith murdered at least eight women.

2:23

His last victim was Julianne Winningham,

2:27

but Keith Hunter Jasperson decimated

2:29

countless lives beyond the ones he took,

2:32

including that of Julie's son, Don

2:35

Findley. I'm Lauren

2:37

Bright Pacheco and this is

2:39

happy face from

2:44

I The Creation of a serial Killer

2:47

by Jack Olsen. The

2:50

morning after I killed Julie Winningham,

2:52

my eighth victim. I drove to Vancouver,

2:55

Washington to get my driver's license renewed.

2:58

On my way, I thought about moving Julie's

3:00

body farther from the road, but

3:02

I decided it was too much bother. I

3:05

drove straight through to Baker City, Oregon,

3:08

and played a little cribbage.

3:10

I made a few bucks and hit on some of the women.

3:13

I gave a couple of Julie's old coats to

3:16

a cute girl from Boise. So

3:25

who is John Finley and

3:28

why are you so afraid to meet

3:30

him? John Finley as

3:33

the son of Julie winning Ham, my father's

3:35

last victim.

3:38

He was present the entire

3:40

trial of his mother's murder, and

3:43

he faced my father in court. I

3:46

first heard about him by reading the

3:48

Oregonian and his statements in court.

3:52

I instantly wanted

3:54

to meet him decades ago,

3:57

and have made attempts to reach out to him

4:00

and been rejected. I

4:02

had heard that he wanted

4:04

to do the things that my dad did to his mom

4:07

to me. Where did

4:09

you hear that? From a producer? When

4:12

I had the show Monster in my family? The

4:15

whole premise of the show is to connect perpetrators

4:18

family members with victims family members, and

4:20

the number one person I wanted to meet was done.

4:23

So I had a producer reach out to him,

4:25

and that producer had relaid the information

4:28

to me that he he

4:30

had thought about that, that he thought

4:32

about harming me in

4:34

the same fashion that my dad had

4:36

harmed his mom, because he wanted revenge

4:40

by taking something from your dad.

4:44

I think that he

4:46

he vilified you quite a bit, and

4:48

he thought that you had this perfect, wonderful

4:51

life and that you had never suffered

4:53

because of the harm your

4:55

father had inflicted upon people. And

4:58

I told him a little bit out your work and about

5:01

the fact that you really

5:03

wanted You've spent your

5:05

entire adult life trying to atone for your

5:08

dad's crimes and since.

5:11

And I think that he had never

5:13

really looked at the

5:16

ramifications of your dad's actions

5:18

on his family and his

5:21

children, and so he

5:24

decided he

5:26

was touching go. But he

5:29

said that he'd be willing to try.

5:32

I mean, he never gave me a guarantee that he was actually

5:34

going to show up. My

5:41

hope is that it's

5:44

it's several things. Honestly,

5:48

my real hope as I just want to say I'm sorry,

5:51

I want him to know how

5:54

sorry I am for

5:57

what my father did. It's

6:00

just true, true

6:02

sadness for what what happened.

6:05

And I can't offer

6:08

any restitution or bring his

6:10

mom back, and

6:12

my my sorrow for his mom's

6:14

loss isn't enough. There's nothing

6:17

I could give him,

6:19

but I definitely want him to know how

6:22

sorry I am. I think that's

6:25

the best I can offer. That's all I

6:27

can offer. Let

6:34

it happen. Look at I mean, this

6:37

is the place to be picked. I mean

6:39

this is this is adorable.

6:41

Okay, so we're looking at the most adorable

6:43

little seaside cafe

6:46

that's actually sitting on the water. And

6:49

to get there you have to walk

6:51

on this kind of metal grade

6:54

that rocks back and forth.

6:57

The cafe is this cheerful

6:59

turquoise blue. It sits

7:01

not by the water, but on the water. I

7:05

think it's going to be an interesting meeting. He picked

7:07

it, he picked this location. This

7:10

feels very friendly. I

7:12

don't know, I'm cheerful. It's peaceful.

7:15

It's hard because I'm because

7:17

I don't know what I'm gonna walk into the

7:23

water. Oh my gosh, Oh

7:25

my gosh. Walking on this, I

7:28

was like walking on still. I'll

7:33

be right there. Don asked

7:35

that we not roll audio until after

7:37

they've had a chance to meet. I think that's

7:40

him. I think I think he's behind me. He's

7:44

got his arms crossed. I'm gonna turn turn

7:46

my back, so I'm stead you meet

7:48

with Lauren. I'm

7:52

glad Lauren's meeting with him first. He

7:55

he looks. He looks tense. Huh.

8:03

I like the location he picked. I

8:10

gestured for Melissa to come over, and

8:13

she had to cross this metal

8:16

plank to get back from where

8:18

she was standing on the water to me. And

8:21

Melissa is shaking so

8:24

hard that the entire thing

8:26

is trembling as she's walking because

8:28

she's so nervous. And she

8:31

walks up to Don and without

8:33

saying anything, he

8:36

opens up his arms and they embrace,

8:40

and Melissa just starts

8:42

sobbing. It was one of the most

8:46

beautiful moments

8:49

I think I've gotten to witness

8:51

as a producer. There

8:53

was such a vulnerability

8:57

and strength on both

8:59

side of that hug, and

9:01

it is if it ripped

9:04

open a scab on Melissa's

9:07

soul. She just sopped.

9:11

God. It was when

9:16

he hugged me and just stretched his arms and he

9:18

hugged me. It felt like

9:22

the wash of forgiveness

9:25

purified my heart,

9:28

like it just melted

9:30

away my anxiety,

9:33

an anxiety that was interwoven

9:36

in my fibers of my being. Like it, I

9:38

didn't realize how tense

9:40

I've been walking my life until

9:42

he hugged me. And

9:44

it was like this relaxation and

9:47

solace that I've never felt before. And

9:51

it was something that I thought I could seek

9:53

in religion and find that solace

9:56

through a forgiveness of a loving God or

9:59

and to say, you know, but when

10:02

Don hugged me, it was like, all as

10:04

well, the past

10:07

is washed away and

10:09

I'm free. I'm forgiven

10:12

and free to walk my life as I need to

10:14

walk. That

10:18

was a lot. Yeah, if

10:20

you're gonna do it, you gotta do it right. We don't do it

10:22

at all, And it's got to

10:24

come out, girl, sorry,

10:27

And it's gonna be the hardest because

10:30

this whole time, I can only imagine

10:32

what your thoughts are sitting back, Like I

10:35

said, I've put myself in your shoes and

10:37

I can't imagine. But

10:40

maybe I am the missing Laon and you

10:42

know, I can't even put

10:44

myself in her shoes, Like I don't even know

10:48

I don't know how you did it. I don't know how you're here,

10:50

like I. Um,

10:52

we settled into the cafe, but

10:55

for more privacy, we decided to head

10:57

back outside to a quiet bench

10:59

overlooking water. Um,

11:04

so I'm

11:07

in a better spot. And what questions

11:09

do you have first? I

11:11

mean, I'm sure you've been pondering. I

11:14

think that I would like to to know

11:17

first as Um, I

11:19

briefly met your mom. Okay,

11:23

yeah, I'd like to whatever you want

11:25

to tell me about your mom? And UM,

11:30

well, my mom

11:33

stayed here in Chamis with

11:35

her mom and was tossed

11:37

between her dad, who lived in California,

11:40

where I was born and raised. She

11:43

wasn't an educated woman. She

11:46

was a very energetic,

11:49

positive, venturous

11:51

walked her own path, but

11:54

because of her own education, she

11:56

had to do certain things to get

11:59

by in life. I mean back

12:02

in the day. She supposedly

12:05

had married a truck driver just as big

12:07

as your father, but he was from Arkansas and

12:10

they got divorced. So

12:13

my mom had me, and

12:16

she wasn't around a lot in my life because she was on

12:18

her own little journey and was scared of the family

12:21

who raised you. My

12:24

dad's mom, my mom's step

12:26

mom and my mom's

12:28

dad. Why my dad

12:30

worked all the time. What did he do?

12:34

My dad was regional

12:36

manager for an auditing company

12:39

and they got

12:41

divorced. Dad got custody.

12:44

Mom wasn't around, and

12:47

she traveled the United States and

12:50

like to do her own thing. Everybody

12:53

loved her. She wasn't a drunk, she wasn't

12:56

an alcoholic or drug addict. She

13:02

This is the stuff. The media don't know what

13:05

I'm about to tell you. No one knows this.

13:07

I haven't told anybody because

13:10

they asked, but they don't. It's all been

13:12

about unfortunately, it's been about

13:15

you and your father. When these people tell

13:17

me what they're promising me, right,

13:19

I was under the inflat once that I'm supposed

13:21

to help people, but the little

13:24

thirty second segments aren't long

13:26

enough to help people. One

13:29

of the things Don wanted to clarify

13:31

that he believes the media got absolutely

13:34

wrong was his mother, Julie's

13:36

relationship with Keith. As

13:38

we know, Keith broke his rules for

13:41

Julie. It was the first time he'd killed

13:43

someone he dated and really knew.

13:46

In fact, when Keith introduced Julie

13:48

to Melissa, or talked to Melissa, about

13:50

her. He'd referred to Julie

13:52

as his fiance, but Don

13:54

takes issue with this. My

13:57

mom was living in Utah.

14:00

I talked to her on February eleven, because

14:02

her birthday was February twelfth and mine was February.

14:06

There was no talk of your father. My

14:08

mom was not in her relationship. She

14:10

was living with a girlfriend and a kid. She

14:14

was telling me that she was on her way down

14:16

here to campus to

14:18

visit with their mom.

14:21

She had met your father prior,

14:27

and she knew how to work the truck stops because

14:29

she drove truck and did her thing, and

14:33

he offered her a ride to hear

14:37

he must not have had any pickups because

14:39

they hung out in town for a couple of weeks. Okay,

14:43

they were not in her relationship. You

14:46

can hear in Don's voice how

14:48

angry he is about the idea

14:51

that Keith and his mother were ever together.

14:54

There's also a pain that comes

14:56

from the constant reminders

14:58

of his mother. Everywhere he goes, He

15:00

visits places she frequented, and

15:03

he drives past the scene of her murder

15:05

on a daily basis every

15:09

day of

15:11

my life since then, I

15:14

tried, I have the track by every

15:18

day I go fishing in the beautiful cornch I

15:21

gotta drive right by it.

15:26

I didn't run. I

15:29

faced it head on. I

15:31

can't crush my heart. The

15:40

long haul trucker told the Clark County Sheriff's

15:42

Office detective by phone that he strangled

15:45

Julianne Winningham

15:47

while raping her in the sleeper car of his rig

15:49

after gagging her with duct tape. Winningham's

15:53

nude body was found March eleven, dumped

15:56

down a bank of a viewpoint along Highway fourteen

15:58

in the Columbia River Gore, four

16:00

miles east of was Ugo. The

16:08

scenery wasn't the only reminder

16:10

of his mother's murder, So is

16:12

his name. After his mom's

16:14

death, Dom changed his name

16:17

to Leroy. It's actually part

16:19

of why he was so difficult for me to track down.

16:21

I had to go through Leroy to

16:23

get to Don. We asked

16:25

him a little bit about why he chose that

16:28

name. I was living in

16:30

San Diego, working at

16:32

a car wash, had friends in

16:34

bands and uh,

16:36

just living a fun life. I was looking

16:38

pot doing drugs. I

16:41

was up for three days when

16:44

I got the phone call at work. I

16:48

went ballistic. I

16:51

pulled off kitchen sinks, punched wood.

16:54

Then I walked home and I fell in the middle of the

16:56

main street and cried. So

17:00

this is where Leroy comes into play.

17:03

I came up here for the trials. I

17:06

got a job telemarketing.

17:08

They asked me if I had a nickname. I

17:11

said Leroy. They put Leroy

17:14

up on the board, so I started

17:16

telling people my name is Leroy, even though

17:18

they're seeing me every day on the news.

17:20

I mean, not only did

17:23

I not know anybody, but I found

17:25

a job in a place to live to be able

17:27

to see this to the end. My family

17:30

was not there for me. No one's ever asked me if I

17:32

was okay. I want to know what happily

17:34

you found out you came up here. Why

17:36

did you have to go to the board. Well,

17:39

the reason I had to go to the morgue was because my

17:41

mom wasn't around a lot in my life, and

17:45

I had to physically see her

17:48

that way to know that she's dead, or otherwise

17:50

I would still think she's on a you know, traveling

17:53

around doing her thing. Because we didn't talk that

17:55

often. She wasn't around a lot. I'm

17:59

going back to how you had

18:01

to see your mom. I can't

18:03

imagine you you saw

18:05

her after what? Yeah,

18:09

I don't even know what she looked like. Yeah, I want to

18:11

I want to know. I want to know because

18:14

you have to see it. I want to know what you saw.

18:20

All right, Well, I

18:22

show up. It's underneath

18:24

the jail. It's really like the movies.

18:28

Long long, long, long,

18:30

long long long. They

18:32

open up a room, white

18:35

walls, silver table.

18:39

My mom has a sheet covered up to her neck.

18:43

I see from

18:45

her face a mark

18:47

from here to here. That's why,

18:51

as black as day's night, I

18:54

see shrub marks on

18:56

her cheeks from where she rolled down

18:58

through the berry briars. H I

19:01

also see the

19:04

top of my mom's head, just

19:06

sitting on top of her head because

19:09

they did the optopsy on her brain, so

19:11

it was just there.

19:20

That's the last time I saw my mom.

19:27

What do you do with those images? Mask

19:32

him? They go away. She

19:36

was such a beautif lady.

19:42

He stuck his fist down my mother's

19:44

throat to make sure she was dead,

19:49

dug taped her, suffocated

19:53

her, raped her, carried

19:56

him around in the cab of his truck, drove

19:59

up the mountain, lost her like a piece

20:01

of garbage. And the next time I see her, she's

20:03

like that. I

20:09

truly can't explain the anger and hate I've had

20:11

over the years towards this, but

20:13

I've had to put I had to put it past me. I

20:16

had to because otherwise I'm

20:18

not going to be happy, and I need to

20:20

be happy.

20:32

I was wearing just my shoes and a shirt

20:34

when I headed east. I knew

20:36

she would wake up soon and then she'd

20:39

really no terror. I

20:41

breaked hard at a stop sign and heard

20:43

her grunt. She tried to get

20:45

into the front passenger seat, but fell

20:48

to the floor and cut her forehead on the seat

20:50

pedestal. A little pool of blood

20:52

formed. I reached down

20:54

and patted her on the back and said, nice

20:57

of you to join me, Julie, and

21:00

stay there until I stop up ahead, and

21:03

then you'll find out what's going to happen to you.

21:20

Melissa and Don had been wrestling with

21:22

the past for so long, trying to

21:24

come to terms with its impact on their lives,

21:27

and they were both eager to share their experiences.

21:30

I don't know what you know. I

21:33

don't know much, but I don't

21:35

know what you want to know. The

21:37

Feds, everybody, they figured out what

21:39

trucking company he worked for. And by

21:41

the way, I see that trucking company every day on the

21:44

road. So you can imagine my thoughts going

21:46

through, you know, Okay,

21:49

and it's got to be hard for us. So

21:52

they found out what trucking company you've worked

21:54

for. He was on a run. He

21:57

was going to go pick up a load in New Mexico. Okay,

22:00

okay, So they called Haney.

22:03

They said he's gonna be in New Mexico. The local

22:05

police went there with the

22:07

Feds because it's out of jurisdiction. Did

22:10

the blood urine and something

22:13

else sample for him?

22:15

They have to bring it back here to test it. Before

22:19

they get back, he calls

22:21

in. He says he tried to kill

22:23

himself by eating a bottle of Thailand. All they

22:28

go back, they arrest him, and

22:30

the trials start. Yeah,

22:34

the detectives came up to Spokane

22:37

and they questioned my mom

22:39

and then they didn't tell her

22:41

anything. Then she

22:44

said to my brother or

22:46

sister and I your

22:48

dad's jail. Then

22:50

my brothers like for what it

22:52

is, she said, for murder. I

22:55

just remember just feeling like this is this

22:58

is not real. He had I

23:01

went to my my

23:04

cot like down

23:06

on him. Did I just cried the whole

23:08

night. He had

23:11

wondered who it was,

23:13

what happened, how did it happened? He

23:16

had a pictured a million different things in

23:18

my head, and I

23:20

wanted answers. Nobody

23:23

would just tell me. I just wanted

23:25

to know. And that's why

23:27

I started looking at the Oregonian

23:30

and reading everything. And it was hard to read

23:32

it, but in a way, it was kind of,

23:35

you know, blessing it disguised, because I don't

23:37

know if I could have handled hearing it from your

23:39

words in real life. I think just reading

23:41

it, there was a there

23:43

was a state of removal, you know.

23:46

I was somewhat removed when

23:48

I could read from a distance, what was happening

23:50

over here? What was happening with your life?

23:53

This? Sor B

24:06

four right,

24:20

pick a right? This is where

24:22

it happened. What is this? This is

24:24

a spot. It used to be an empty

24:26

lot until two years ago. I

24:28

thought she was found on a road. Hold on, I'll

24:31

show you if you stop

24:33

right here. This was an empty lot

24:35

and his eighteen wheeler was parked right

24:37

here. Okay, the bar he was

24:39

at is just not even at quarter

24:42

of a mile up the road. My grandmother,

24:45

my mom's mom lived three blocks up

24:47

the road. So his truck was parked here.

24:49

Okay, this is where

24:52

he did what he did to my mom right

24:54

here in this lot with it

24:56

was parking lot though, yeah, parking

24:58

lot. You know. There was no store here, There was no nothing

25:01

here. His truck is right here. My

25:04

mom comes from the bar up the road. They

25:07

talk about the money issue. He

25:11

what was the money issue? What could

25:14

explain to me? So basically,

25:18

after listening to your father

25:20

and saying how one

25:22

of the victims asked him for money

25:25

after he was already done with her,

25:27

that reminded him of his wife

25:30

and that's what made him snap. And I remember

25:33

him saying this in one of his interviews. Well,

25:36

my mom went to the bartender

25:38

and he was too busy. My mom needed

25:41

some money. Came to jess person,

25:43

your dad. My mom had gotten

25:45

into a car accident. Your

25:48

dad's signature was on the bible to sell. My

25:53

mom came to town with him. They were hanging

25:55

out. I'm assuming

25:57

my mom had a car. My mom was working.

26:00

Something happened. She

26:03

went to your father for money,

26:06

asking him nicely because she wasn't a you know,

26:08

a gold digger or anything, and

26:11

he snapped where

26:14

we're going next is on Highway fourteen.

26:16

He drove six miles out on Highway

26:18

fourteen, pulled over and

26:22

threw her out without no rings or nothing,

26:24

just starcass naked, and

26:26

then came back, got his trailer

26:29

and drove off to New Mexico. But

26:37

your dad, your last freedom,

26:39

was your dad in this town for

26:42

three weeks. Give her take.

26:45

Did your grandmother ever say that

26:47

they were talking about getting married again.

26:50

My mom would never got remarried. I

26:52

know it for a fact. That came up

26:55

through your father because my mom, as you

26:57

can see, she was a very beautiful woman.

26:59

She was a findhearted, good soul.

27:01

And that's why your dad, you said, he broke

27:04

every rule that he ever

27:06

had set for victims that he was going

27:08

to do this. Dude, right, My

27:10

mom broke every rule because of her soul,

27:12

her heart. You know, he felt

27:14

something different with her. The

27:32

truth when it comes to Keith is

27:34

always in question. Weeks

27:37

later, Melissa still had doubts about

27:39

the nature of Julian Keith's relationship.

27:42

Our producer Noel also

27:45

made the trip to Washington State to meet

27:47

Don. This

27:49

idea of Julie being his fiancee

27:51

kind of keeps coming up, and it's sort of like

27:53

been called into question a few different ways

27:56

by her son. For example, he Don

27:58

right off the bat said that's not true. But

28:02

there's a lot of he said, she said stuff in

28:04

all of these tales. You kind of were

28:06

skeptical of that too. The

28:08

only thing that makes me not skeptical of

28:11

them being together as the last time I saw

28:13

my dad. The last time I saw my dad

28:16

was at a diner, and he brought

28:18

up that he was going to

28:20

buy me a car, a red Pontiac, and

28:23

that he was going to buy a house

28:26

on the beach and that Julie and him

28:28

would live there and then I can move in with him.

28:31

And so the sense that he was

28:34

putting this future with Julie makes

28:36

me think that he saw

28:38

something different in Julian, that he wanted to settle

28:40

down and get married. But you remember what

28:42

we discovered that that

28:45

wasn't his dream, that was her dream.

28:47

And Don kind of talked about how this

28:49

is something she always talked about, wanting to

28:52

have her son back with her living

28:55

in the beautiful places in California,

28:58

because my mom and him travel from Utah

29:01

to Hear and they knew each other prior

29:04

so he knew her dream,

29:07

so he was telling me your mom's dream the

29:09

last time. Her last words to my

29:11

dad or what about your kids? When

29:14

she was pleading for her life, And I

29:17

know she was trying to appeal to

29:19

the man and not the monster. The

29:22

fact that she was saying that makes

29:25

me, you know, obviously I know why

29:28

she was pleading what about your children?

29:30

You know, to try to ground them back into hey,

29:33

you're a dad. But she was and

29:35

this is again, this is your father's

29:38

version, and we don't know what her last year really were.

29:41

And in the Jackalson book,

29:44

your father claims that she

29:46

was saying, hey, wait, you know what about your children?

29:49

I was going to be basically

29:51

their mother, And one

29:54

of his final insults

29:56

to her is do you think I would let you raise

29:59

my kids? But she wasn't

30:01

good enough. But again it's

30:03

this ongoing theme that you've pointed out that

30:05

your dad has to degrade all

30:08

of his victims in some way, shape

30:10

or form, that they had it coming. Absolutely,

30:13

So the truth is I don't know. What

30:16

we do know is that Julie wasn't

30:18

rundered by my dad. Her title of

30:20

fiance or girlfriend or friend

30:23

is not relevant really I think

30:26

I think it's relevant and that it's it's the one

30:28

that he interacted with outside

30:31

of just a killer victim

30:33

relationship, at least as far as what we know.

30:36

Well, I know they were friends. I think that's

30:38

what they were friends for years,

30:41

and that's what I think haunts

30:43

me more than the fiance title, is

30:45

that this was a multi

30:48

year relationship, not

30:51

one of his fleeting girlfriend situations

30:53

where someone he barely knew and

30:56

if he could do that to her, he could

30:58

do that to anybody

31:06

from I the Creation of a serial Killer

31:09

by Jack Olsen. I

31:11

said, you don't love me,

31:14

Julie, you never have. She

31:17

sniffed and said, what about your children?

31:20

I was going to look after your kids. I

31:23

laughed. I said, you can't

31:25

even look after yourself. How

31:28

could I trust you with my kids? I

31:32

was thinking, how do I keep

31:34

running into these kind of women? All

31:36

this time, She's staring at me with

31:39

tears in her eyes. I

31:42

removed the tape around her ankles, but

31:45

I left the tape on her arms so

31:47

she couldn't go after my eyes with her

31:49

long fingernails. Oh,

31:55

I want to ask what you don't have to an clarifying

31:57

Okay, what were your mom's last

32:00

words was that said, have

32:04

you wondered that? I've

32:07

never thought about that for

32:09

the simple fact of maybe that

32:12

the fact that she was duct tape and suffocated

32:14

and didn't have a last word. So I've

32:16

never thought about what my

32:19

mom's last thoughts or words

32:22

were. In my head, she

32:24

asked him for money and that made

32:26

him snap, and that's how my mom ended

32:28

up dead. So that is

32:31

my interpretation. My mom

32:33

said something yesterday when, um,

32:36

he's he tries to shame my mom by

32:39

publishing their intimacy,

32:42

their sex life, and um,

32:45

I said to my mom, and doesn't that make you feel

32:48

victimized? You know, like that that's doing this

32:50

And she said, well, it's

32:52

not true, And I thought,

32:55

yeah, we only have his word for

32:57

what happened because he was the only us

33:00

and there and the person who did that. And

33:02

so but I believe what he did to my

33:04

mom it's true because of the way his actions

33:06

in his wording. And now

33:08

after you telling me how your father is, that's

33:11

why he was supposed so specific in court.

33:15

Yeah, I mean, can you

33:17

imagine my rage hearing this

33:19

man say he stuck his fist down my mom's

33:21

throat to make sure she was dead, no,

33:25

no, and

33:28

then I left her in the back of my truck for eight to twelve

33:30

hours before I disposed of her body, so

33:33

the autopsy come from that. I

33:44

came up here on an airplane and

33:46

I went to every bar across

33:49

this whole city, all

33:51

the way looking for your father. I

33:53

didn't know who did it, because they didn't know at this time, because

33:56

this was less than twenty four hours after finding my

33:58

mom. I went on isstion

34:00

to every bar, who are you looking

34:02

for? What did you think

34:04

you're looking for? With

34:09

you? I don't know, I,

34:11

like I said, I literally had been

34:13

up for three days a day prior. You're

34:16

just going in hoping that you would

34:18

just see somebody and they would you would

34:20

know. I'm assuming I

34:22

I can't answer that question because

34:24

it's so long ago, you know what I mean. But

34:27

I remember one night in the beginning singing karaoke

34:30

Pat Benatar singing, hit me with your best shot,

34:32

like to the whole you know, hit me? Come on, bring

34:34

it on? You know what I mean. I'm facing this

34:36

head on. You know what I mean? Do you

34:38

think you got something for me? Bring it on? Bring

34:41

it on, Bring it on. Julie

34:49

was found absolutely by chance when

34:52

a local resident stopped to take a scenic

34:54

picture by the winding roadside

34:56

where she'd been tossed, discovering

34:58

her naked and beaten body. Um

35:03

so here comes to twenty one mile, keep

35:05

going, I

35:07

know it all. See

35:10

that turnout right there, come not

35:12

this one with the next one, because

35:16

you gotta think about it. He has an eighteen

35:18

wheeler truck, so

35:20

he has that space to turn around right to

35:22

go back and get his trailer. Yeah,

35:25

and if he goes any farther, he's into Commania

35:27

County. So

35:31

he pulls over right

35:33

now. You gotta understand the hillside, it's twenty some

35:35

years different than it is now. So

35:38

he pulls his truck over. This is where they found

35:40

my mom's cigarette butts and stuff. And so

35:44

what he basically told me was after he

35:46

did all that, he

35:49

opened up the door and threw down there like

35:51

a rag doll, right down

35:54

there. And if you look, let's go out

35:56

there. Imagine these trees

35:58

right here, not over own twenty years

36:00

ago, right, someone

36:03

stopping to take a picture. He just

36:05

happens to live up on the hill. He

36:08

stops to take a picture, looks

36:10

down this terrain and sees my

36:12

mom.

36:16

So your dad pulled over right here

36:18

disposed of her to

36:22

get over this. Uh well,

36:25

if you think about this, your dad's

36:27

truck is an eight team wheeler.

36:29

Correct. Your dad is two d and fifty

36:31

pounds at the time. He knows how to drive

36:33

a truck. He can get this close

36:36

enough, open

36:38

the door. Your dad could throw a hundred

36:40

pounds like it's nothing. I'm sure tumble

36:48

down. Remember I told you the brush marks

36:50

on her cheeks from

36:53

this. So

36:56

I came up here, I came kicking with you.

37:00

I came looking for anything I could find just

37:03

out of share. I don't know

37:05

what. And this

37:07

is really thick. Yeah, like I said,

37:09

twenty years it

37:11

probably wasn't as high, you know what I mean, The toss

37:14

wouldn't have been as far, and they would never

37:16

have found her. How would they have found

37:18

her? By the grace of God

37:20

that you were saying earlier

37:22

doesn't exist. He made that man

37:24

stop and take a picture, because

37:27

no one ever stops here, No one no.

37:30

Because there's not really a scenic view either

37:33

the river because the trees are blocking the view.

37:35

To even take a picture like

37:37

this, one would be where I would stop to take a picture

37:40

This isn't scenic at

37:42

all. So what made that person stop

37:44

to take a picture? Who lives right up here every

37:46

day? That is strange that they

37:48

would just come down here

37:50

and take a picture. If they live here and see this view

37:53

every day, Why did that happen? That's

37:55

one of the questions. They had nothing

37:57

to do with it. They didn't help your dad or any

38:00

But why did the universe tell that person

38:03

to stop right here? Because

38:06

it was time for it to stop. He

38:09

needed to be stopped. And

38:11

if your mom, if your mom's body

38:13

wasn't found, he would still be out

38:15

there today.

38:23

All Chris

38:29

good So faults

38:33

in all just secret

38:40

comminations. Now

38:44

we can take out

38:47

our hearts, talk

38:52

them time and

38:55

to tie

38:57

it bits. Happy

39:12

Faces a production of How Stuff Works. Executive

39:15

producers are Melissa Moore, Lauren Bright,

39:17

Pacheco, mangesh Ha Ticketur, and

39:20

Will Pearson. Supervising producer

39:22

is Noel Brown. Music by

39:24

Claire Campbell, Page Campbell and Hope for

39:26

a Golden Summer. Story editor

39:28

is Matt Riddle. Audio editing

39:30

by Chandler Mays and Noel Brown. Assistant

39:33

editor is Taylor Chacoin Special

39:36

thanks to Phil Stanford. The publishers of

39:38

the Oregonian newspaper and the Carlisle

39:40

family AH

39:45

Chris

39:51

volts loeous

40:00

serve