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0:26

Rig Oh Kevin This

0:28

week has bachelor. Humming.

0:31

Along a big drawer in my kitchen

0:33

and I closed it such that a

0:35

muffin tin went vertical and now I

0:37

cannot open the drill and it is

0:39

deep enough that I cannot access the

0:41

muffin tin with a ruler and so

0:43

I may need to hire a handy

0:45

may I hope in a drawer at

0:47

my house. Wow you. This always happens

0:50

to me with that the drawer under

0:52

the oven where you keep the sheet

0:54

pay Ah yes and and and the

0:56

sheet pan sometimes gets like stuck in

0:58

and like lodged in a way that

1:00

makes. It impossible to open the door to

1:02

like things. The she panther who's happens to

1:04

me like every six months. it's Very. I'm

1:07

glad we're talking about this because people don't

1:09

talk about other stuff. but there's so many

1:11

wars. Another country that has the open embark

1:13

Sir Ian, What is the the construction industry

1:15

during? About Hitler's or President Biden doing a

1:17

lot less? Come on come on. I'm

1:25

Kevin or is the technology for the New York

1:27

Times or Casey. learn from Plat former and this

1:29

is Hard Fork this week on the show. Any

1:31

i companies are falling apart will

1:33

tell you what's happening then listeners.

1:35

Are spot the last week segment about

1:37

teams and social media. You'll hear from

1:40

actual young people on the subject And

1:42

finally was a deal with shrimp Jesus.

2:01

Kp. It has been a messy, dramatic

2:03

week in the world of a i

2:05

lost my favorite kind of we to

2:07

have any I met him, he has.

2:09

We love a mess on this celts

2:11

and we should talk about the mess

2:13

because I think there's some pretty interesting

2:15

things going on for the last basically

2:17

year and a half. The story of

2:19

the Ai industry has just kind of

2:21

been a bunch of graphs that are

2:23

all going up into the right. Everyone's

2:25

raising money, everyone's making money, Every other

2:27

models are getting better. and now I

2:29

think we're starting to see some cracks.

2:32

In the Ai industry emerge yeah, the

2:34

tide is going out cabin and it's

2:36

scooping up some companies that we've talked

2:39

about on this very podcast Css this

2:41

week or one Ai Companies Stability A

2:43

I had this is the company that

2:45

makes the stable disuse and him his

2:47

generator have announced that it's Ceo a

2:50

mod miss Doc a former Hard forecast

2:52

was resigning from the company must suck

2:54

said that his a departure was because

2:56

he wanted to spend more time pursuing

2:59

decentralized A I. And this sad this

3:01

news. Caught a bunch of people by surprise. When did

3:03

you make of it? Well. I first of

3:05

all, spending more time with decentralize Ai is

3:07

the new. Spending more time with your family

3:10

so families are out and decentralize Ai is

3:12

in Bullet. This was a surprise. Kevin, you

3:14

know, and Modern Stock was actually a guest

3:16

on the third episode of Part Forth and

3:18

Humid. A really strong impression on us. You

3:21

know it's and I think until Kara Swisher

3:23

came on the show few weeks ago, he

3:25

was the single most confident person who's ever

3:27

been in the studio. It's true, he had

3:29

all these stories about how he was gonna

3:31

use a I'd and you know some of

3:34

that sounds. Pretty silly in retrospect, but you

3:36

have to remember he was a very important

3:38

figure in the world of Jenner to the

3:40

I like. I went to this party you

3:43

know back in in late twenty twenty two

3:45

where you know stability I was announcing that

3:47

they exist, raised a hundred and one million

3:50

dollars like a very large your first major

3:52

funding round of and they were this buzzy

3:54

hot start up in he was this by

3:56

the eat a hot Ceo and stay through

3:59

this huge hardy and the exploratory of in

4:01

all these big wigs from tax showed up

4:03

and it was just kind of like in

4:05

silicon arrival of sorts and so now you

4:08

know Less than two years later he's out

4:10

and this company Stability Eyes appears to actually

4:12

be quite unstable. Which leads me to my

4:15

first point about this which is if you

4:17

are name your company has this is something

4:19

that is going to look like a stream

4:21

leave funny in hindsight if it blows up.

4:24

So. Do that. Do Not Named

4:26

Your company. Stability I. With.

4:29

Every time the company has problems people

4:31

are going to say something like oh

4:33

this should have called it instability I

4:35

do not do this. Don't need your

4:37

company's extremely profitable or totally solvents or

4:39

definitely not a scam or just go

4:41

with some other name. That's right Kevin

4:43

to be like if you want to

4:45

start of the Ai company devoted to

4:47

do and all of it's research in

4:49

the open and call it open a

4:51

I and and moved to more flows

4:53

model where he says nothing. But

4:56

who would do that would never have

4:58

Never. Abby Rio. never happen. So I've

5:00

talked to some people sort of it

5:02

around the situation of you know. People.

5:05

Say it on some level, what happened at

5:07

Stability I what is happening. It's ability. I

5:09

as a pretty standard story, this is a

5:11

company the raised a bunch of money, but

5:13

ever since then it seems to have been

5:16

a pretty rocky road for the company. Maybe

5:18

we should talk about some of the things

5:20

that have happened to them. Yeah, so I

5:22

think that the mean saying that was happening

5:24

at Stability I'd that was public was that

5:26

executives kept leaving the company he adds or

5:28

I would shout at Bloomberg over the past

5:30

year has done a lot of great reporting

5:32

on this subject. but at least five vice

5:35

presidents. Left the company within the last

5:37

year including their head of Adios add

5:39

Newton Rex who is no relation but

5:41

as a great last names or he

5:43

resigned in protest that how Ai companies

5:45

including Stability it's had been treating copyrighted

5:47

d that are Stability was sued by

5:50

Getty Images for copyright infringement both the

5:52

United States and the United Kingdom's arms

5:54

and so that's a lot of turmoil

5:56

to have at a company. And the

5:58

sillier? Yes, this company. Would say has

6:00

been on the Hot Mess Express for

6:03

for more than a year now. Me:

6:05

they've had lawsuits, one of the cofounders

6:07

of the company, Suda Madness Dog alleging

6:09

that a my basically seated him out

6:11

of his stake in the company. There

6:14

have been all these departures that you

6:16

talked about and investors in the company

6:18

has not been happy with a Madman

6:20

stock for months now. I'm in part

6:22

because the company was just losing a

6:25

lot of money and didn't really seem

6:27

to have a business model a Madman

6:29

stock. Also, Was accused of may be

6:31

a fabricating or embellishing. Some of his

6:33

credentials are claiming that he had degrees

6:35

that he didn't have and whatnot and

6:38

so it is just than a very

6:40

messy at last year for stability ice

6:42

Now I did are also talk to

6:44

Mud Vostok last night about very honest

6:46

others reduce some of the text he

6:48

said mates. Fast I'm

6:50

you know why did why did you leave and he said. Being.

6:53

A Ceo Success! Ilan was right.

6:55

It is like looking into the

6:57

abyss and suing glass. As.

7:04

He also said quote I am not

7:07

a normal person It is impossible for

7:09

me to do distributed instability and I

7:11

don't like being a Ceo. Well no

7:13

I mean point for honesty man, points

7:16

for honesty. He also said I asked

7:18

him what his plans were I in

7:20

the future He says I'm going to

7:23

do Indonesian. And cancer models and the web

7:25

three protocol to tie it all together. Yeah,

7:27

that that makes sense that I don't think

7:29

we need any further explanation what that means

7:31

as. A

7:33

personal seven. It strikes me that some people

7:35

might be listening to this and again. look

7:38

at this seems like a fun story, but

7:40

I never used Stable That Views and was

7:42

it really even that big of a deal?

7:44

succumb. It's a little bit about kind of

7:47

what they were making and why at the

7:49

time it's this seem like a company that

7:51

we would be mentioning in the same. Breath

7:53

as an open A I or an Emp

7:56

Roberts have been stable. Diffusion was one of

7:58

the first in a big him. Generation

8:00

Models When Dolly and Mid Journey were

8:02

first coming out who it was quite

8:04

a big deal and stability. I had

8:06

this vision that was different than some

8:08

of the leading Ai lab. They were

8:10

going to create these tools at Language

8:12

Models, Image Models, Video Models and they

8:14

were gonna. Release. Them freely of

8:16

and people would be able to build their

8:19

own versions and this was service. They were

8:21

pioneers and kind of the open source Ai

8:23

community and they have built some models that

8:25

are quite widely used and that have fans

8:27

and people seem to like them. but they've

8:30

also really struggled to build a business around

8:32

that because if you're giving your software way

8:34

for free and you're you're not, you're charging

8:36

people to use. it's that that really eats

8:38

away at a at a potential revenue stream

8:41

and so I wonder if you know if

8:43

they ever had a plan to make money.

8:45

They obviously. They had some revenue. It's not

8:47

like this company has never made money but

8:49

they were not making enough to satisfy their

8:51

investors and ultimately you know a magma stock

8:54

and up leaving the company and they replaced

8:56

him with to a coast Ceos and a

8:58

mod. When I talk to him last night

9:00

as seem to think that's the future of

9:02

this company live inside of the media models

9:04

that they were not going to sort of

9:06

compete with Gp T for and Gemini in

9:08

all the text based models but that there

9:10

was actually a lot the you can do

9:13

to make money when it comes to at

9:15

image generating models. And and movie generating

9:17

models would you make of that? Well

9:19

so year that though the kids that

9:21

I would make for stability mattering is

9:23

that in Twenty Twenty two I was

9:25

able to get a stable diffusion model

9:27

running on my M One laptop and

9:30

generating images just via text. Now if

9:32

you've done that using something like a

9:34

dolly on the web that might not

9:36

sound very impressive. and about the images

9:38

I was getting that do not compare

9:40

to the images you can get today.

9:42

but the fact that I could run

9:44

the entire bottle. On my laptop was one

9:47

of those whoa moments and a mod came

9:49

on our podcast a talked about this i'm

9:51

not The Forks had Cbt was even released

9:53

of sort of even before that sort of

9:55

big bang moment for generated a ice they

9:57

were working on the sub they were doing

9:59

really cool thing. So that's why I

10:01

was sort of invested in what was

10:03

going to happen in this company. and

10:05

you've certainly shared a enough reason for

10:08

for why that it didn't work out

10:10

for them. But I would say it

10:12

it raises even more than that. It

10:14

and I think number one Kevin is

10:17

just you cannot overstate how expensive it

10:19

is to compete at the highest levels

10:21

when you're competing against literally the richest

10:23

companies in the world in Google and

10:25

Mehta A and Microsoft said to you

10:28

can't overestimate how hard it is. Just

10:30

to get your hands on the infrastructure that

10:32

you need to do this stuff right. What?

10:34

What often gets called compute? Do you have

10:36

access to the Gp use that are necessary

10:38

to train these next model So I think

10:40

it's just on those two axes allowed. It's

10:42

super hard to on a company and then

10:45

you throw in the challenge of you know,

10:47

building a consumer business and a good product

10:49

and going out to market. And yeah you

10:51

you can see why a company might not

10:53

realize all of it's emphasis. Yes, I think

10:55

on some level this is sort of a

10:57

standard is the story? Startups fail all the

10:59

time. Even ones the rays. lots of money

11:02

and or management and leadership changes. Or but

11:04

I think it doesn't help that they were.

11:06

You know they were. They were sort of

11:08

early in a market that has since become

11:11

very, very competitive with many of the largest

11:13

companies in the world throwing billions of dollars

11:15

into trying to train their own models and

11:17

a sister hard to compete with that even

11:20

if you do have a ton of venture

11:22

capitalists in your corner. Yes. All right. Also,

11:24

enough about stability. Is there another. Big.

11:27

Interesting Ai company out there that also

11:29

going through it doesn't. Yeah. So last

11:31

week Microsoft announced that it was hiring

11:34

a way to cofounders and a whole

11:36

bunch of employees from. Inflection Inflection is

11:38

an Ai company that we've talked about

11:40

a little bit on the show. They

11:42

are best known for their chat bot

11:44

which is called Pie which was sort

11:47

of marketed as a more personal ads

11:49

had bought like some compared to like

11:51

an almost the ai sarah pissed and

11:53

they had raised a ton of money

11:55

from venture capitalists to. Build out future

11:57

versions of their ai models. The

12:00

N B were run by these very

12:02

experienced A I leaders including Mustapha. silly

12:04

men who was one of the cofounders

12:07

of Deep Mind and See is joining

12:09

Microsoft as a big week in their

12:11

Ai division along with many of inflections

12:13

employees have. This was a bombshell when

12:16

it came out. Everyone I know who

12:18

follows A I closely. I was talking

12:20

about this gossiping about this, trying to

12:22

make sense of it because this was

12:25

one of the highest flying A I

12:27

start ups are just a year ago.

12:30

And now they are basically being

12:32

sort of dissolved and reconstituted within

12:34

Microsoft. And we should say this

12:36

is a bizarre deal, right? Because

12:38

this is not Microsoft acquiring inflections,

12:41

they are not. Buying. The

12:43

company outright. Instead, they are basically

12:45

hiring at the majority of the

12:47

staff and striking a licensing deal

12:49

of Microsoft According to the information,

12:52

is going to be paying and

12:54

Flex and Six hundred and Fifty

12:56

million dollars for the rights to

12:58

make Inflections models available through Microsoft

13:00

Azure. Cloud Service and Inflection reportedly

13:02

has also agreed to use that

13:05

money to pay back It's Investors

13:07

Maybe the value of their original

13:09

investment plus Athena a little bit

13:11

more, but. Either this is a stream

13:13

structure for one of these, Do it because

13:16

not only are they getting paid out, but

13:18

they'll say to keep their equity and the

13:20

company sells it. What is happening here? Wealth.

13:22

Essentially Microsoft added plugs and are finding a

13:25

way to pay off all of the investors

13:27

in Influx. And so nobody's stamps their feet

13:29

about all of this. Microsoft gets access to

13:31

all of the top talents at Inflection, or

13:34

probably most of it's inflection gifts to continue

13:36

on as a kind of husk of itself.

13:38

So no one can say that Microsoft actually

13:40

acquired the company. but Microsoft get solved. The

13:43

upsides? And he was he had I'd

13:45

I have never. Seen a deal like

13:47

this and Silicon Valley? yeah and some people

13:49

I've I've talked to have described this as

13:51

a non acquisition acquisitions. Basically a yeah

13:53

it's It's not easy to acquire a your

13:56

startup if you are one of the

13:58

biggest tech companies. Regular leaders in the Us

14:00

and Europe have placed a lot of scrutiny

14:02

on tech acquisitions, especially by the biggest

14:04

tech companies. and so I think there is

14:06

an assumption if you are at a big

14:09

tech company looking to buy a small

14:11

tech companies and that you're you're not gonna

14:13

be allowed to do that. Are least

14:15

it's gonna be challenging and regulators are going

14:17

to challenge your right to do that. And

14:20

so by structuring the deal this way

14:22

where it's like we're not acquire in the

14:24

company, were just hiring away the leadership and

14:26

and many of the the top talents

14:28

I'm and licensing as their. Models Microsoft

14:30

gets to kind of dodge the regulatory

14:32

scrutiny that it might be under if

14:34

it tried to buy the company outright,

14:36

which is which is very clever and

14:38

something that I expect. If you are

14:40

regulator, you're looking in baton going like

14:42

ah, we did. To think of that

14:44

was yeah, Definitely feels like one of

14:46

these like curses foiled again moments, right?

14:48

Because you know, think about all of

14:50

the. Really? See any investments that

14:53

Microsoft has been able to make an Ai

14:55

over the past few years. Most famously,

14:57

they are hugely invested in Open A I

14:59

would Open A I start to fall apart

15:02

last year. they basically swoop to the

15:04

rescue and help to ensure that Sam Altman

15:06

return to power and protect a very

15:08

large investment in that companies. And as Tevin

15:10

as I know you remember, one of

15:12

the ideas of the time was that if

15:14

they couldn't restore Sam Altman as see of

15:17

Open A Ice, they would basically put

15:19

him in charge of a I at Microsoft.

15:21

Wealth fast, Forward to today and

15:23

now they still have that investments.

15:25

In open a ice at stages went

15:27

to hire one of the biggest players

15:30

in the space. One of the cofounders

15:32

of the Mind You sounded inflection and

15:34

now he's gonna run this Ai and

15:36

Microsoft silks. they have really. Had that

15:38

that's at his if that weren't. And that's

15:40

there. Also invested in Miss Thrall which is

15:42

a very hot friends A I start up

15:44

that ah has just a a huge pedigree.

15:47

A people that worked at all the big

15:49

Ai companies before itself. So essentially whoever wins

15:51

in a I've Microsoft is is poised to

15:53

reap a huge amount of the upside. Yes,

15:55

somebody I talked to this week described it

15:57

as sort of my gross outfit have to

15:59

do a land grab basically to spend a

16:02

bunch of money to get all of that.

16:04

the best ai people and companies and models

16:06

are under their roof. or if not officially

16:08

under their roof than at least to take

16:10

steaks and them to be there cloud provider

16:12

or something and that they're using this moment

16:14

when there is some weakness in the industry

16:16

when a lot of these companies are not

16:19

making money yet to just hoover up all

16:21

of the talent and all the resources that

16:23

they can. Yeah, and so how do we

16:25

feel about what Microsoft is up to hear?

16:27

Kevin? I mean, I. I think it's smart,

16:29

strategically. For them, obviously they now know after

16:32

what happened, it opened A I last year.

16:34

That's there are downsides to being a minority

16:36

investor in an Ai company. you don't control

16:38

it. You know, Microsoft now does have an

16:41

observer seat on the Open A I non

16:43

board, but they are not really in control

16:45

of that company and that's by design. They

16:47

structure that deal in a way where they

16:50

wouldn't get majority control, presumably for some of

16:52

the same anti trust and regulatory reasons. But

16:54

yeah, it's or them. You do have to

16:56

be looking at what happened at Open A

16:59

I last year and saying well, we better

17:01

have a plan B and a plan see

17:03

if something happens to that investment. And so

17:05

I think this move hiring way inflection is

17:08

is a good way to as or. Create

17:11

an insurance policy for themselves or

17:13

something does happen at Open A

17:15

I. But you wrote a newsletter

17:17

this week that I thought was

17:19

interesting that I want to talk

17:21

about which basically said that these

17:23

these two stories the stability I,

17:25

leadership transition/you know basically unraveling and

17:27

the inflection was the aqua Higher

17:29

by Microsoft are sort of part

17:31

of a trend that we're seeing

17:33

a sort of faltering of what

17:35

you might call like this sort

17:37

of middle class of ai that

17:39

these these companies that. Are not the

17:41

Googles, the Microsoft, the Met As and that

17:43

are sort of ones here below that that

17:45

they're really struggling. So explain what you wrote

17:47

in and what you meant by the A

17:49

Welt like when generally they. I first had

17:51

the scene, there was a lot of optimism

17:53

that this was gonna be a moment in

17:56

the tech industry akin to when the app

17:58

store first landed on the I Sound. And

18:00

all of a sudden you had a

18:02

platform that could support all these new

18:04

kinds of businesses whether it was goober

18:06

or dropbox or mobile gaming. All of

18:09

a sudden this ah, entrepreneur as had

18:11

access to this giant new global market

18:13

and could invent a bunch of new

18:15

stuff. Or I think there was some

18:17

optimism at the start of the generative

18:19

A I moment that this was going

18:22

to be similar. And so you had

18:24

all kinds of investors pouring billions of

18:26

dollars into start ups and lots of

18:28

little teams leaving Google and Mehta. He

18:30

and other companies to start up

18:32

their own businesses and what I

18:34

think we've started to see this

18:37

month cabin is the tide is

18:39

starting to go out there. It

18:41

is starting to dawn on some

18:43

of these companies that the Giants

18:45

in some cases really are too

18:47

big to fight against. The the

18:49

Giants are the ones who have

18:51

the money they have v computing

18:53

power. They have all the resources

18:55

necessary to train those a large

18:57

frontier models. He and they have

18:59

the. The product shops and the

19:01

distribution strategies to actually turn those

19:04

into real businesses. And I think

19:06

you've seen companies like stability and

19:08

influx and take a swing it

19:10

doing all of that themselves of

19:12

trying to advance the state of

19:15

the art on the tech side

19:17

while also building a business may

19:19

be building a big consumer business.

19:21

He and of. They. Are

19:23

just not succeeding. Self's that I

19:25

think is really notable. An image

19:27

Will said the wedding ring. He

19:29

said because I am somebody who

19:32

wants their to be more smaller

19:34

companies. You know, I don't think

19:36

that the. Ideal State of

19:38

the World is one where there are

19:40

four or five tax sides. I think

19:42

it's one where there's lots of medium

19:45

sized companies who are all competing of

19:47

who were giving a lot of choice

19:49

to consumers who are not you know

19:51

dominating I that the the landscapes and

19:54

whenever I see a Microsoft wind up

19:56

in a situation like their source you

19:58

know and maybe matter. Wind up in

20:00

a situation like this. I just think oh well

20:03

you know is so much for the chance that

20:05

we had to unsettle the landscape. It looks like

20:07

the new bosses are going to be the same

20:09

as the old buses. Yeah, I think that's right

20:12

And in this moment in a i really does

20:14

remind me a little bit of those sort of

20:16

moment may be a decade ago where you had

20:18

a goober which was raising all this money and

20:21

building this huge business and then you've had all

20:23

of the kind of. Goober. Wannabes,

20:25

You know that Uber for Axe right

20:27

boob or for laundry Uber for dog

20:29

walking? all these different sir flavors of

20:31

the same fundamental business model as as

20:34

Uber pioneered with the kind of gig

20:36

worker and you just had investors lining

20:38

up to just sour these startups with

20:40

task thinking maybe this will be the

20:42

next move or maybe this will be

20:44

the thing that that makes me. you

20:47

know a hundred times my original investments

20:49

and most of those companies failed and

20:51

it wasn't for lack of trying it

20:53

as the serve. Nature of the venture

20:55

capital businesses that you you kind of spray

20:57

and pray right? You use our a bunch

21:00

of different start with money. most of them

21:02

fail but the ones that succeed and make

21:04

enough for you that it pays back for

21:06

all of the losers. So I think that's

21:08

really what's happening here in a I. Investors

21:10

are just kind of throwing money at anything

21:13

that looks like it might have a pulse

21:15

that it might have might have a chance

21:17

of getting that product market fit and and

21:19

making money. And I don't think they're gonna

21:21

be to dissuaded by some failures along the

21:23

way because they. They pretty much expected

21:26

I I think that's right now. I

21:28

talked to somebody at one of these

21:30

companies after my my column this week

21:32

and they said to me lox what

21:34

you're seeing actually could be a temporary

21:37

phenomenon right now that the key limiting

21:39

factor and the ability to start a

21:41

great a companies is access to computing

21:43

resources and that is a temporary phenomenon

21:45

with in i don't know a year

21:48

a couple of years if you want

21:50

to start stray I company you're gonna

21:52

be able to get your hands on.

21:54

More of the Sept So that computing power that you need.

21:56

This and that is when you're gonna go and be able

21:59

to build your great. This and so. it may

22:01

look like the Giants are winning handily for

22:03

the next year or so, but eventually you're

22:05

gonna see the challengers rise up against. Now

22:07

this argument may be a little self serving.

22:09

Were going out to check back on this

22:11

on a couple years. A sea of it's

22:13

true, but if you're looking for some sliver

22:15

of optimism among the sort of great washing

22:17

out of the in the ai companies, I

22:19

remember you. Yeah. I think there's

22:21

a little bit of optimism for smaller

22:23

and medium sized A I sort of

22:26

here in that the big money frocks

22:28

have not really started to arrived yet.

22:30

You know we've seen a ton of

22:32

funding come in to i start ups

22:34

over the past year to Amazon just

22:36

this week and else that it was

22:38

investing in other two point seven, five

22:40

billion dollars into Anthropic Of That's on

22:42

top of a bunch of money they

22:44

had already invested. Or they've invested about

22:46

four billion dollars so far, and my

22:49

colleagues also reported at the time. This

22:51

week that the Saudi Arabian Sovereign Wealth

22:53

fund the P I ask is considering

22:55

at raising a fund of Forty billion

22:57

dollars with the help of Andreessen Horowitz

22:59

to invest in a I start ups.

23:01

Forty billion dollars is a lot of

23:04

money even in the world of a

23:06

Am. And so I think we are

23:08

going to see another wave of kind

23:10

of institutional investors who are desperate to

23:12

get in on the Ai booms, just

23:14

funding tons and tons of startup that

23:17

money is not all going to go

23:19

to. A note to to Microsoft. And

23:21

Google and Amazon. Well I'm disappointed to hear

23:23

that Saudi Arabia is investing in that and not

23:25

journalism. I would be greatest and forty billion

23:27

dollars go to critical reporting of that regime. Thought

23:29

maybe next time, maybe next dance of right?

23:31

Well we'll keep tabs on the masses in a

23:34

I. but I would say you know what

23:36

you're seeing, at least to sort of. The vibe

23:38

that I'm picking up is that people don't

23:40

think the party is over. they don't think the

23:42

party is ending. But they do think that

23:44

there is sort of a up you know up

23:46

going to be a little bit of a

23:48

washout as some of these companies that raised. A

23:51

ton of money without very clear path

23:53

to profitability and start getting tough questions

23:55

from their investors about well what's your

23:58

plan to actually make back on? That's

24:00

right And in the meantime if your

24:02

Ai company is falling apart we'd love

24:04

to hear from you email hard for

24:07

to them y times.com esta or. When

24:12

we come back, we'll hear from So Heartless

24:14

about our segment from last week with Jonathan

24:17

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25:01

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25:03

York Times. Since the pandemic,

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empty office buildings have become much more

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if you'd like to become a subscriber.

25:55

Had to N Y times.com/subscribe. You

25:57

need to see the animated floor plans and

25:59

this. Okay,

26:02

the last week we talked with

26:04

Jonathan Height, the social psychologist and

26:06

author about. How smartphones and

26:09

social media are affecting young

26:11

people and. I think

26:13

it's a to say it was one of our

26:15

our most polarizing segments we've ever aired on the

26:17

South. Yeah. I mean, this

26:19

is just one of those where

26:21

everyone has a really deeply salt

26:23

personal opinion, that some folks are convinced

26:26

that social media really is the primary

26:28

cause of the mental health crisis and

26:30

young people, others think it is a

26:33

moral panic. Yeah, we really heard from

26:35

all corners of that debate over

26:37

the past week, yet we always love

26:39

to hear from our listeners and I

26:42

just thought some of these responses were

26:44

so thoughtful that we sexually just call

26:46

up the people who read. To us

26:49

and bring you their perspectives and we shall

26:51

see to say it like part of why

26:53

we are talking about this subject is not

26:55

just because it's something that people have strong

26:58

feelings about or that we're getting older and

27:00

we feel like the kids these days it

27:02

are using their phones too much. This is

27:04

a really active debate right now and if

27:06

and a real inflection point in the history

27:09

of the internet. With just this week, Rhonda

27:11

Santas, the Governor of Florida, signed a new

27:13

bill into law that would prohibit kids under

27:15

fourteen from creating social media accounts. There are

27:18

other laws. Around the country that are

27:20

making their way through state legislatures with

27:22

similar things in them at this is

27:24

a really really important to be right

27:26

now and an ongoing policy discussion so

27:28

I really wanna hear from. Our. Listeners

27:30

from young people, especially about how

27:32

they're thinking about this question. So.

27:35

We're going to talk with Jordan. Lose Sarah

27:37

Jordan is a high school junior who sent

27:39

us an email pushing back against some of

27:42

the arguments he heard here last week. Or

27:44

in his own words, he is addicted to

27:46

his phone, but as a D student he

27:48

is skeptical that taking away his smartphone and

27:50

school would improve his own experience. So little

27:52

sprint or dinner. Door.

28:03

Then I jordan already unheard of.

28:05

You know what's going on? I

28:07

just gotta go. And.

28:09

How his class today. It. Was good.

28:12

erm the watch movies. I didn't do

28:14

anything. that's what. like to hear about

28:16

the American education system is why. Why

28:18

read a book or write anything when

28:21

you get dressed and enjoy the finest

28:23

the what Hollywood has offer. Well.

28:26

I'm hey, thanks for hopping on with us.

28:28

You know last week we are interview Jonathan

28:31

Height about his new book and we got

28:33

some really great emails and yours struck me.

28:35

It's something I have talked about on the

28:37

show is being worried that if we take

28:40

social media away from kids it could make

28:42

life harder for Lgbt kids in particular starts

28:44

with a little bit about that. What? What

28:46

Do you like? This idea of taking away

28:49

phones in schools? Clears

28:51

thing I tried to make a career in

28:53

the email but I was reading when am

28:55

I read I'd regret again or like a

28:57

while I was pissed arm and if our

28:59

teachers don't trust as as people to manage

29:01

our time. It completely changes the dynamic

29:04

of the class I think. If

29:06

we need to look at something that we didn't get we like we

29:08

missed the know or something. That. Helps us learn

29:10

better. And if a teacher just take

29:12

that away and it is kind of rubs his the

29:14

when and. If. I have friends in the class.

29:16

It's is kind of miserable. This. Is the

29:18

basic thing about around respect? Rights.

29:21

Also explain this little bit Greek. you know when

29:23

I was in in high school if I

29:25

didn't have a friend in the class I would

29:27

just have a talk to whoever was around

29:29

me to entertain myself. But you have a smartphone

29:31

so use you. Told us that you actually to

29:34

sort of tax people who are know in her

29:36

class during closet addict tell us how that works.

29:38

So I have so many group chats and

29:40

I'm very dependent on them. Because.

29:42

If you would feel and eighteen t without. I.

29:44

Couldn't sex even for two hours and it

29:46

was honestly I had no idea was that

29:48

depending on having constant access of just a

29:50

whenever I want. So. It

29:52

helps me just put my thoughts into. Words.

29:56

And it has helped me feel better. But

29:58

would he do everyday? Some

30:00

people might hear that and say i don't know

30:02

Jordan, that's other. That must be pretty distracting during

30:04

class of you know I know some it was

30:06

as you just have to watch a movie so

30:08

it's probably side but you know, presumably they're ones

30:10

where their lectures and homework and stuff so still

30:12

you feel distracted by your smartphone all the time

30:14

in class. Definitely and I should

30:16

be a lot better mans in it. But.

30:19

Mostly in my classes. Are. Most

30:22

people are focused. And.

30:24

They're. Using their phones to either reply to

30:27

could text or. They might be

30:29

going to be. they're not doing it during class, are doing it

30:31

and off time so it's not hurting anything then I'm I would

30:33

say they're missing anything at all. And.

30:36

Sometimes. My phone helps me like if I to look at something

30:38

and able to do that. And.

30:41

If we're done during downtime and I see another to depose

30:43

an assignment, I'm going to get a start on my. I'm.

30:45

Doing emails, a managing the other clubs

30:48

I'm in, I'm doing all his stuff.

30:50

I'm not just scrolling through. Brain

30:52

rotting. just like how you guys use your phone's

30:54

to do Things were also. using. Them

30:56

as a tool to get things done. Well.

30:59

Kevin mostly uses his phone to rot his brain, but

31:01

I think it's actually really inspiring how you use it

31:03

on. I'm hoping it takes a couple an interview. He

31:06

has to say you're western do at this

31:08

is a little off topic but do the

31:11

or group texts have names For one thing

31:13

I have heard as that's teenagers and group

31:15

chat names are totally unhinged. Oh.

31:18

I never thought about it. I

31:20

guess girls and events and we've lucy be

31:23

the one time I miss a busy bees.

31:25

And Pizza Modi Assist Assist

31:27

be who you are and

31:29

with. This who

31:32

who also assumed. Would. Do

31:34

see buzz. Buzz

31:37

se but as the minimum and like that

31:39

the you don't have that groups at yourself.

31:42

Wow we have so as to learned to

31:45

okay. Just a couple of work was

31:47

the Jordan. I get what they got me wondering

31:49

is like it. I can understand why the internet

31:51

is useful to you. You know you look at

31:53

the facts like the all. that makes a lot

31:55

of sense to me. where we are talking to

31:57

heights. He try to make a distinction between the

31:59

inner. In social Media and said like a

32:01

internet access is why you want to get

32:03

on your laptop and look stuff up. That's

32:06

fine, that's like not hurting anybody. but is

32:08

this sort of the social media a bit

32:10

all where you're expected to take pictures of

32:12

yourself and there are counts underneath that you

32:14

mean or maybe it makes you feel self

32:16

conscious about your appearance? That is the really

32:18

harmful thing likes to do. You have thoughts

32:20

about the set of social media in particular

32:22

and and what it might be doing to

32:24

your your school. Am

32:27

I think it's really a net positive, but

32:29

that's the thing He tried to like this

32:31

thing between the internet and social media and

32:33

they're so now intertwined. That you

32:35

can't really make the distinction anymore. Like

32:37

of I want to get the news. I'm doing that

32:39

on something like threads are twitter. That's

32:42

is one example of what so

32:44

intertwined. I'm curious. yeah

32:46

again, there's as big push the take away

32:48

social media from I'm from kids especially kids

32:51

younger than sixteen. This and I just wonder

32:53

as a as a gay student how you

32:55

think that would have socked Lgbt students. I'm

32:58

it would really harm. Big.

33:02

The self discovery process I think and

33:04

finding a healthy community. Cause.

33:08

I. Was on twitter at age nine which

33:10

is absolutely insane and it's a for the

33:12

better I'm and I've been lucky enough to

33:14

have Basements. Worth a healthy for and

33:16

but I'm Wicket war You doing on twitter at

33:18

age nine? Jordan. Real.

33:21

Or you dunking on people. Know. My

33:23

minecraft like You Tube or the like. Phone me

33:25

on Twitter and I would do anything success As

33:28

As As As and I just so you're you're

33:30

tweeting at my draft You Tube Years Yeah, okay.

33:33

But. It helps me. To

33:35

see illegal A large variety of view points

33:37

about a lot of social topics. I would

33:39

just be on trending topics like everyday. And.

33:42

Itami a lot more about the world. And

33:44

it made me a better person for it. Yeah.

33:47

So am I hearing you say that

33:49

Like you, you feel like social media

33:51

helps you come to a sort of

33:54

very positive self understanding. Yeah, Definitely.

33:57

And. Then my last question was as whether you're doing

33:59

anything your eyes. The wanna? get the word out and

34:01

about Hard Fork. I'm.

34:03

Going to posted on Instagram story because but

34:05

in the South? Yeah. Well

34:09

this is fantastic. I truly like your your

34:11

email met a lot to me. I really

34:13

appreciate you taking the time not as the

34:15

listen to the so but to ride in

34:17

the and thank you for are indulging or

34:20

question Sankey during your inspiring me to come

34:22

up with funnier and more unhinged names from

34:24

a group chats. So for that alone as

34:26

the bus may be ungrateful from you guys.

34:39

Next. Up are going to talk to

34:41

my A Rail. Maya is not a

34:43

team, she's twenty four but she wrote

34:45

in tooth talk to us about this

34:48

issue and she pointed out that the

34:50

things that are conversation with Jonathan Height

34:52

might have overlooked is how valuable social

34:54

media can actually be for students and

34:57

in particular for student athletes season athletes.

34:59

He runs track and field and in

35:01

her experience social media has been an

35:03

important way for female athletes especially to

35:06

get opportunities are related to their athletic

35:08

accomplishments. Hello!

35:15

Maya, where are you joining us from today.

35:18

On some actually in California I in

35:20

there are no Wisconsin track team and

35:22

where it we've got a race and

35:24

like that area this week. So.

35:26

You're on your monitor. The woods, I

35:29

en yes ah well, welcome to. We'll

35:31

be a good time here. So.

35:34

Maya. What is when? the value

35:36

of social media in your life as as

35:38

do Natalie. I

35:40

think it's like a really nice way

35:42

for me to figure out like what

35:44

different accomplishments people are having and like

35:46

just get the get news about like

35:48

in other rana fast time like were

35:50

athletes I should be falling on learn

35:52

a lot about like what's going on

35:54

in different people's eyes. And a tell us

35:57

or what what kind of athlete you are, What? What's your?

35:59

I would serve some. I've done

36:01

a runner. I run a mile

36:03

sixteen hundred meter, five case. Awesome!

36:06

So so further than tub and runs. A

36:08

typical day is minute or two that mississippi

36:10

surprised faster but maybe not for the. Homeless.

36:15

I also think that in a part of

36:17

what you're you're bringing up here is that

36:19

if you're really serious young athlete and you

36:21

wanna compete at the highest level you know

36:24

division one, you wanna go pro. You might

36:26

actually be a disadvantage if you're not posting

36:28

on social media, even from the time that

36:30

you may be a freshman in high school

36:32

did as a Samurai to you. I

36:35

think that's absolutely correct. I don't know

36:37

how much it though listeners know about

36:39

and I l that that's name and

36:41

image and likeness and it's this alternative

36:43

way that sin athletes concern is so

36:45

that sort social media in order to

36:48

get paid by the senses it can

36:50

be really important. I mean there's there's

36:52

a lot of inequality and it but

36:54

there's of. This is like an opportunity

36:56

for a lot of female athletes and

36:58

male athletes as well to just sites

37:00

have more of a platform than they

37:03

otherwise would have on. Get monetary

37:05

gain from it which they can't get

37:07

directly through their schools and said this

37:09

is can be a pretty important financial

37:12

aspect for certain athletes. Shall.

37:15

Be. Out. My guess is you would agree

37:17

that for for all the benefits that

37:19

you just raised which I think we're

37:21

very real, social media can be a

37:23

double edged sword. m I wonder if

37:25

you have seen the flip side of

37:27

it in your life or other people

37:29

in your life who you feel like

37:31

social media has contributed to anxiety or

37:33

depression? North as is kind of you

37:35

know I may people really are upset

37:37

over the years. Oh I mean

37:39

absolutely. I think that like body image side

37:42

of it can be super damaging to people.

37:44

I mean I think that there's also trustees

37:46

like echo chambers and rabbit holes were like

37:48

as as soon as you pay attention to

37:50

one thing it just easy more and more

37:53

of that and you can see the different

37:55

ways that he's algorithm incessantly can influence you

37:57

Suit. My If you don't think that. We.

37:59

Should. He'd Jonathan Heights recommendations

38:01

and keep. Smartphones,

38:04

Away From Kids until they're in high

38:06

school on social media of away from

38:08

kids until their sixteen or older. If

38:10

you don't think those are the solutions,

38:13

What? Do you think should be done if anything?

38:15

or do you think with this is all basically just

38:17

sort of a scary narrative that adults are telling about

38:19

kids these days and we should just death let the

38:21

kids either on thing. I

38:24

said yes I don't have the answers

38:26

to edit and it's really complicated. I

38:29

mean I couldn't sleep. I think

38:32

about it a little. that like

38:34

drinking like that, sets of parents

38:36

that stripes. And kids in

38:38

outlet like you can't have a sip of

38:40

alcohol like you have to say and like

38:43

you can't do any of that. like as

38:45

soon as they graduate, soon as they leave

38:47

like a team. What happens when they get

38:49

to college is that. They just go

38:52

way overboard on and I saw

38:54

that. Like. So many times the like

38:56

the people that district parents that didn't

38:58

get them any freedom it just it

39:00

just didn't go well. And

39:02

is on. I think the parents

39:05

should. Be able to trust their kids are keen

39:07

on Khamenei a twelve year olds and the on

39:09

social media. Like a fifteen year

39:11

old. I mean that flicker. Catholic

39:14

up mostly of he a real human being. At

39:16

that point he can make their own decisions. Hear

39:18

somebody else who who wrote to us as

39:20

we pointed out that you know we don't

39:22

let kids. Younger than sixteen? drive in

39:24

most states, but you can get your temporary permit.

39:26

they're sort of in Us, is it? There's a

39:29

certain ramp for you to like, gradually learn how

39:31

to drive and be given more and more responsibility.

39:33

and then when you're sixteen, use or get the

39:35

whole thing. So maybe that's what we need is

39:38

some kind of like you know training wheels for

39:40

for people who are you know there there's or

39:42

fourteen or fifteen. Maybe they're not ready for the

39:44

full social media, but they can get their their

39:46

learners permit. Yeah, I like than

39:49

ideal. I think that totally makes sense. My.

39:51

When did you create your and ceramic handheld radio?

39:55

Was probably eleven or twelve. Hum.

40:00

And the reason I'm laughing is that you know

40:02

you're You're not supposed to create an accounts to

40:04

your thirteenth, would you say that Instagram shrub? Any

40:06

roadblocks to be like hey for seems like you're

40:09

eleven. Oh, I mean I just

40:11

I like knew that I had to be

40:13

certainly what is it? Thirteen? Or something I

40:15

just like lied about. My for selling

40:17

has literally every one of my classes

40:19

have to. Say,

40:21

or whole classes eleven and or on Instagram

40:23

and they're They're posting photos and collecting likes.

40:25

In the end, like us, this would be

40:27

what the sort of sixth grade. And

40:30

yeah, yeah, okay. after going as

40:32

a method. Of.

40:40

Ah, I read it might have that was

40:43

you. I appreciate about this. Discuss him. You've

40:45

hit on this tension that is unreasonable for

40:47

me. Whereas I think it's very clear that

40:49

social media is hugely beneficial to some young

40:51

people and I think that's it has very

40:53

positive effects for them spam. I also think

40:56

that social media as we negative effects or

40:58

some group of people. I don't know exactly

41:00

how large the different groups of people are,

41:02

but that's the area. where I struggle is

41:04

how we design a policy or a set

41:07

of policies are systems to sort of ensure

41:09

that we get the most. Good out of

41:11

this for the most number of people while minimizing the

41:13

hearts. I truly don't know how to do that. I

41:17

don't have the answers to that either. I. Know

41:19

my A. Degree

41:22

of us All The answers. I mean, I. Said.

41:24

Time let's minutes for myself and like

41:26

something that works that sometimes I just

41:28

like ignore them. A sucker for a new

41:30

European? I don't know. I mean it's it's deathly tricky,

41:32

but I think it. Is

41:36

the way so much time on your phone

41:38

or on your screen and like. Learning

41:40

those skills of being able to

41:43

not do that whether you're sixteen

41:45

or. Eighteen or forty I

41:47

think is does. it's getting difficult,

41:49

the matter what? Well.

41:52

It's great to talk with you. If you do

41:54

come up with a solution to this problem we

41:56

hope to call back, but in the meantime we

41:58

hope that have a good. The media and

42:00

we had me thinking as. Next

42:09

up, we're going to talk to Jack

42:11

Campbell. Jack is twenty years old, he's

42:13

in college, and he wrote to us

42:15

with eighth really unsettling account of how

42:17

frequently in his life he has learned

42:19

that a friend or acquaintance had attempted

42:21

suicide. He wrote to us quotes. I've

42:23

not experienced childhood in any other decade,

42:25

but from what I've told, this was

42:27

not the situation of twenty or even

42:29

thirty years ago. Now we should note:

42:31

if you are in crisis, please call

42:33

the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at Nine

42:35

Eight or you can contact the Crisis

42:37

Tax Loins by texting. Talked. To seven

42:39

Four one seven Four One. To learn

42:42

more about Jax experience We mccall. Jack.

42:50

Hey how you doing. Good. How are

42:52

you. To. Assert on my

42:54

son. Barron Dorm Waltz? That's

42:56

okay. I actually find it

42:58

more attractive than our studio

43:00

not designed by professionals. Ah,

43:04

readers will. Or William and Mary.

43:07

So. Brutal and this is your dorm room that

43:09

were catching your and. Yeah. Yeah

43:11

I'm a resident. assistance of this is like

43:13

an old office area Mercatus the sleeping what

43:15

is being a and are in in when

43:18

I was in college are is mostly would

43:20

die give out condoms and tell people not

43:22

to be so obvious about smoking weed in

43:25

the dorms. What are what are your main

43:27

duties. Ah yes yes yes

43:29

that's it has not changed. And to

43:31

have a little tip the party to

43:33

fix makes it such. As.

43:37

Well first of all, thank you for

43:39

writing into as say Center so really

43:41

touching. Email: Intimate. Maybe we could start

43:43

by by having you talk about your

43:46

reaction to when we talked to Dollars

43:48

and Height last week And what is

43:50

your own experience? Been here. Social.

43:52

Media has been obviously like a huge

43:54

part of my life, and I've I've

43:56

been on social media since I was

43:58

like eleven twelve. How did he

44:01

have had an I phone for forever and

44:03

it worked out great for me? I'm I'm

44:05

in college and I'm I'd like to cook

44:07

and I'm doing relatively well. And and all

44:09

that, By. The data that that

44:11

jonathan night. You'll find things up about half.

44:14

Way through depression and suicide Know that

44:17

you know those data points are my

44:19

friends and on. It's

44:21

it's one of things where

44:23

his proposed solution of of

44:25

preventing people from creating accounts

44:28

specifically. I don't think that

44:30

it's gonna be harmful. Yes,

44:32

You know you're just a letter like see

44:35

the conflict but don't touch until you're. Sixteen.

44:38

And. I think it's it's something that we

44:40

really do have to do something about.

44:42

Clearly, you know it. It's clearly a

44:45

crisis. Have you had friends? Are people

44:47

who you're close to who have had

44:49

serious mental health struggles That that you

44:51

are. they would attribute to use of

44:53

social media. Definitely. Either

44:56

one hundred percent. Multiple.

44:58

And. I don't think the you can get away from

45:01

earth the fact that that so many some even are

45:03

and of our interactions it as for mediated by these.

45:05

These. Online platforms The social media site that.

45:08

Can you say little bit more

45:10

specifically about what aspects of social

45:13

media do you think are contributing

45:15

the most? Turn to depression and

45:17

add the desire to self harm?

45:20

I think when you have young talent photos

45:22

and snap Matthews really really want to know

45:24

our kids having a party without your you

45:26

can see them on math or are hanging

45:28

out together and I'm I'm an hour you

45:31

know and and as yeah and I can

45:33

do is just like this like watch them

45:35

drive around and. It's very much the

45:37

case the get on Instagram and you know.

45:40

Everyone. else does at.

45:43

Events even if you're if you're at

45:45

some these events. Just the fact

45:47

that there are events that you're not as yeah. you

45:49

get into that kind of like self comparison out. Documents.

45:54

And that you've had social media basically your

45:56

whole failed or your whole adolescence and that

45:58

you feel like it's sort out. Pretty

46:00

well for you, even though you do know

46:02

lots of people for whom it has not

46:04

worked out well. Do think there's something different

46:06

about the way that you use social media

46:08

vs. some of your friends or is it

46:10

just kind of luck. I.

46:13

Think a lot of it is lox yeah,

46:15

can't deny that that a male one. The

46:17

statistics don't look nearly as bad for us

46:19

to. Buy I. Don't not

46:21

necessarily think that anything. Was really

46:24

different about the way that I used a

46:26

social media interpersonal. My friends, do you think

46:28

the idea of not letting kids have social

46:30

media accounts until their sixteen would be popular

46:32

among your friend group? Or do you think

46:34

they're more of an outlier? I didn't think

46:36

I'm that much been a liar I think

46:39

Tom and really hits the nail on the

46:41

head bird. If it's kind of our collective

46:43

action problems I think the best and the

46:45

a reasonably popular. Some. Among among

46:47

people of my generation. Jimmy.

46:49

Johnson hide said that you know it was yeah

46:51

students, how many of us ticked? Awkward never invented

46:54

and like most of the hands and the room

46:56

at go up like are would you be one

46:58

of those hands. Yeah. I got

47:00

through a series world's like to be tic

47:02

Toc because I need to like to do

47:04

homework occasionally. I'll. Actually Mickelson she

47:06

to really actually come struggles with us

47:08

as she tries to delete Instagram. she's

47:10

to them to Instagram Saturdays. And

47:12

then every so often, so you know.

47:15

So we downloaded on a Tuesday and.

47:17

If it really sucks for her she she gets

47:19

really start about it. I

47:21

was. I think this is such an important

47:23

point could he and I? I? I talked

47:25

to the folks over at And That Matter

47:28

and Instagram a lot and they push back

47:30

really hard. what on me when we talk

47:32

about the stuff and they say casey like

47:34

you're falling prey to this moral panic and

47:36

this is just sort of comic books and

47:38

heavy metal and video games all over again.

47:41

But like when you talk to the kids, are reading

47:43

the comic books and listen to the heavy metal and

47:45

play in the video games. like none of them were

47:47

saying. Take this away from me, It's too dangerous or

47:49

like I have to set aside five days a week.

47:51

Where I can't even look at this thing

47:53

and I'm not feel distraught in the days

47:56

in between there there is some it's emotional

47:58

level that this stuff really is. There's

48:00

a lot of people and and it

48:02

causes them to a lot of Greece.

48:04

he at that is something that I

48:06

just think that the the platforms for

48:08

a really refusing to reckon with a

48:10

completely I completely agree. Ah well big

48:13

you so much for joining us. Really

48:15

appreciate your perspective on all this. think

48:17

he got so much think you really

48:19

as I wrote the senate deck thank

48:21

you so much and your mustache is

48:23

so cool as is so cool I'm

48:25

forty I called my job is one

48:28

of life's seven season since. We.

48:39

Also got a lot of emails and

48:41

social media posts from teachers, people who

48:44

worked in schools and see up close

48:46

the effects that technology is having on

48:48

young people every day. So we're gonna

48:50

happen to chat with Brendan. Kelly Brendan

48:52

is a teacher. He's been a teacher

48:54

for more than twenty years. He currently

48:56

works at a high school in Richardson,

48:58

Texas as a digital coats and he

49:00

wrote in with some observations about how

49:02

he sees smartphones and social media affecting

49:04

his students. Brendan.

49:12

How are you going Good

49:14

Went where we catching you

49:16

today. I'd So I

49:18

am at school. images appears high

49:21

school yearn Richardson, Texas and what

49:23

do you teach? So I am

49:25

a digital coach and what I

49:28

do is I actually have a

49:30

small group of elite students who

49:32

we will meet with teachers and

49:35

will have Just help them with

49:37

lesson plans, help them integrate technology

49:39

into their lessons. Sounds

49:42

very relevant to to the subject

49:44

that we're going to be discussing

49:47

today branded. After our episode last week

49:49

you sent in this story I over email

49:51

that really unsettled mean are you said that

49:53

when you give States has yet to keep

49:55

the classroom quiet after the last student turns

49:58

in their path and before I. You

50:00

hated that because it was impossible

50:02

to keep kids from talking to

50:04

each other even if they were

50:06

friends. But now that I phones

50:08

exist. ah there is apparently just

50:11

an eerie silence is that fills

50:13

the room. So talk to us

50:15

about kind of classrooms before and

50:17

after smartphones? Yeah for sure I'm

50:19

so that specifically that is absolutely

50:21

right. And the deal is as

50:23

the before I phones and before

50:25

social media. I would hate when

50:27

that last us would come in

50:30

because. Then that means that I would

50:32

have to really really struggle to keep these

50:34

whispers down. And these are kids like thirty

50:36

kids who try a know each other kind

50:38

a lot. but erm, it would be a

50:41

real struggle to keep it just from a

50:43

rough thing into just a whole bunch of

50:45

talking. However, now. It's super

50:47

easy. and that's not because they have

50:50

their phones and they're just like absorbed

50:52

in their phones. they still other phones

50:54

like away in their backpacks. But the

50:57

problem is is that they. I.

50:59

Don't know as it's like a lack of

51:01

motivation or it's a lack of skills or

51:03

what it is but a lot of the

51:06

times those kind of sit there. And.

51:08

Wait for those phones! and so it's

51:10

really easy to keep them from talking

51:12

to each other because there's no lot

51:14

of motivation for them to talk to

51:17

each other in the first place. For

51:19

your school is not a school that

51:21

ban students from carrying their phones on

51:23

them during the day. Does your school

51:25

have any rules about how students can

51:27

use smartphones. He does.

51:29

Yeah, so the deal is is

51:31

that like theoretically they are supposed

51:33

to not have their phones out

51:35

of their backpacks until lunch and

51:37

then they can use their phones

51:39

during lunch and then they have

51:42

to put them away. Now we

51:44

do have some pilot schools who

51:46

are doing a pouch program like

51:48

a your guests talked about before

51:50

and at first I thought well

51:52

that's ridiculous because what they do.

51:54

Is they'll take a broken old phone

51:56

you know their brothers father and then

51:59

they'll put that in the past. There's

52:01

a fundamental rules say I love to

52:03

have sealed it up and you know

52:05

and that's fine. And then they're silicon

52:07

under the table. but he and my

52:09

blackberry you can lock that up. Yeah

52:11

right. Exactly what is this flip phone

52:13

to the So I? I did not

52:16

believe in it at first but I

52:18

will say I talked to. A

52:20

teacher who was in a school where

52:22

the using that and she says that

52:24

the kids are not only doing it

52:27

but the kind of happy about doing

52:29

him because and I think like you're

52:31

against the talked about this before as

52:33

well as it it leveled the playing

52:36

field like okay everybody's doing it everybody

52:38

is like off of social media in

52:40

my school I guess I'll do it

52:43

to see actually gives them bonuses like

52:45

when she sees as the phones are

52:47

and the pouches a pouches are like

52:49

sealed. And everything is is great and

52:51

she says he gives a lot of

52:53

bonuses like like. Extra. Points

52:56

for for tests and stuff like

52:58

that. Art or cash? Oh, we're

53:00

just we're teachers. Yeah, I

53:03

don't know can be added another. Lots of

53:06

ways you could give about a half an

53:08

hour hundred dollar bills and over here we're

53:10

giving the last cat were like me. can

53:12

I borrow a snafus? But remember this is

53:14

really interesting because what you're saying is that

53:16

it it seems that these from has some

53:18

of the the students in your district. They

53:20

really are looking for an excuse to not

53:22

have their phones around and as long as

53:24

no one else. In their line of sight. As

53:27

their found out, it makes it okay for them

53:29

to focus on whatever there's was Be paying attention

53:31

to a last. Yeah. For

53:33

sure and and heroic of have

53:36

been asking around like kids. Okay,

53:38

tell me your opinions on phone

53:40

social media and it's a. Pretty.

53:43

Much One hundred percent. You know

53:45

that we understand that it's We

53:47

understand that it's bad and we

53:49

also use it for like I

53:51

talked to One Kilo today. who

53:53

is saying this uses it for

53:56

like anxiety to calm her anxiety,

53:58

she floods her feet. Where

54:00

by she follows all sorts of

54:02

positive folks and when she gets

54:04

little anxious, she takes out that

54:06

phone. Reads about, you know it's

54:08

it's it's all gonna be okay. You know

54:10

this is the moment this will pass and

54:12

then she puts it down and she's good

54:14

to go. It's a little bit of like

54:16

self medicating erm, but. That's. I think

54:18

that like that's the key is. That we.

54:22

Any time you're fighting against human

54:24

nature, you're You're gonna lose your

54:26

fighting an uphill battle. And so

54:28

instead of just saying i write

54:30

that set, we're not. We're pretending

54:33

that phones don't exist. I think

54:35

we need to teach intentionality behind

54:37

it. From. Right? I totally agree.

54:39

I mean I, I, I agree as

54:41

well. But I think you know what

54:43

Jonathan Height would say is that it

54:45

doesn't matter if you teach kids to

54:47

use these phones intentionally boot because social

54:49

media in particular is a structured in

54:51

a way to make you think about

54:53

it constantly, to drag you into rabbit

54:55

holes to make you feel self conscious

54:57

about your appearance. and so even if

54:59

you want to use in a positive

55:01

way you might struggle to do that

55:03

So brand. I just wonder kind of

55:05

what your your view has been over

55:07

all. Of how students in your district are

55:09

using social media. if you have a view

55:11

sort of does it feel like a net

55:14

positive and that net negative? A more mix.

55:16

What? What is your sense of how it's

55:18

up playing out. As he

55:20

like it's really the old story you know.

55:22

I mean if you're like of them talking

55:24

to a lotta kids and I've heard the

55:26

same thing now that I have heard like

55:28

you know five years ago is that I

55:31

know that I should be on this this

55:33

phone for this long. I have talked with

55:35

kids who'd are over the summer add. Eighteen.

55:38

Hours of tic toc daily. That's

55:41

too much and who has like, But

55:43

that's okay. Now it's just down to

55:46

ten and so like that deaths. A

55:48

thing for food is that we we

55:50

understand that there's like that, it's addictive

55:52

and it is for sure. I mean,

55:55

Sector. Said that if you

55:57

ask soon soon. There was treated. They

56:00

say yes and you know I mean

56:02

I am definitely in that camp as

56:04

well, but it is. It is created

56:07

and and I think yeah, it would

56:09

be great if we could do things

56:11

rein it in for sure, but we

56:13

also need to teach the ability to

56:16

the ability to put it down. I

56:18

think that's a big thing is the

56:20

ability to this engage. Yeah, absolutely. While

56:23

that's that's all I have, Ah Mr.

56:25

Kelly, thank you so much for your

56:27

time. Yeah yeah if you would wouldn't

56:29

mind being my my digital codes ah

56:32

enter moment where I would need one.

56:34

I have reached peak Digital coach talking

56:36

to you guys I can't even believe

56:38

it. Thank you guys! Civilized Yeah I'm

56:41

having this problem with my printer. Maybe

56:43

you could does not even thought don't

56:45

even. Do that too

56:47

much. Too many problems. Today, you don't even though

56:49

you've just triggered me and I need to

56:52

go take a nap friend, I'm in a

56:54

misdemeanor. email your privately to tell you what

56:56

you said charge cabin for for has got

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dollars off. Or

58:02

casey. Today I really wanted to

58:05

finish the episode by talking about. Trump's

58:07

you saw Finally! we're talking about this.

58:10

Is over those of you who are

58:12

not brain poisons like us. From See

58:14

This it refers to an image that

58:17

went viral on Facebook recently that is

58:19

kind of become kind of a as

58:21

a stand in for lots of people's

58:23

concerns about what A I generated content

58:25

is going to do to our online

58:27

media ecosystem. Thrifty. This is just to

58:29

describe the picture a little bit. It

58:31

is an image or maybe as a

58:34

series of images. They're sort of a

58:36

theme of from See this is a

58:38

depth and a plural is actually shrimp.

58:40

Zero Sense Jesus. It's it's. it's it's

58:42

it's. Facebook is flooded with shrimps. Jesus

58:44

and it is pretty much what it

58:46

sounds like. It is a figure of

58:48

Jesus Christ who appears to be floating

58:51

in water and is made out of

58:53

lots of shrimp. Yeah, I mean that

58:55

Kevin. We all remember where we were

58:57

when we first saw Pope and a

58:59

paprika. right? Yes, of course is one

59:01

of the first A I generated images

59:03

to really make the world standstill. picture

59:05

of ah, Pope Francis. Sort of in

59:08

what appeared to be this very cool

59:10

by sashimi. White puffy winter coats aren't

59:12

But we're now in a moment where

59:15

it seems like every day when people

59:17

are opening up face but they're seeing

59:19

some and new and hear me sing

59:21

some new Uri saying it's and it's

59:24

all really crystallized was read Jesus yet

59:26

So this was first reported on back

59:28

in December by for of for media.

59:31

They highlighted the fact that a bunch

59:33

of a I generated images had gone

59:35

viral on Facebook. Lots of. Men

59:37

kneeling next to very realistic wood

59:39

carvings of dogs for some reason

59:42

and sub species images were being

59:44

shared alongside captions like I made

59:46

this with my own hands and

59:48

basically people would just leave comments

59:50

saying like wow, that looks great

59:52

The exact a post with an

59:55

Ai generated image was one of

59:57

the twenty most viewed pieces of

59:59

content. On all of Facebook in

1:00:01

the third quarter of last year. gap

1:00:03

Forty million views. So this month to

1:00:06

researchers are in a director and just

1:00:08

Goldstein from Stanford and Georgetown respectively. I

1:00:10

put out a report that used Trip

1:00:13

Jesus as sort of it's it's lead

1:00:15

image. but the report is really interesting

1:00:17

and I thought we should talk about

1:00:20

heard it's called how spammers, scammers, and

1:00:22

creators leverage a I generated images on

1:00:24

Facebook from audience growths. This is up

1:00:26

a pre print ad that they put

1:00:29

out and basically. They are exploring the

1:00:31

ecosystem of A I Generated Images on

1:00:33

Facebook and why some of these pages

1:00:36

are posting these to my eye very

1:00:38

obviously fake images well and one of

1:00:40

the voice So according to them they

1:00:42

looked at a hundred and twenty Facebook

1:00:45

pages that posted at least fifty A

1:00:47

I Generated Images Eats! The pages had

1:00:49

an average follow account of about one

1:00:52

hundred and twenty nine Thousand pages are

1:00:54

called things like Interesting Planet or Love

1:00:56

Baby and a lot of them are

1:00:59

of like kids. Standing next to very

1:01:01

impressive creations like that, a huge decorative

1:01:03

cake or a sandcastle that like more

1:01:05

realistic than any sandcastle that has ever

1:01:07

been created. And I guess one question

1:01:10

that I had about this is like

1:01:12

do the people who are sharing these

1:01:14

things actually understand that they are not

1:01:16

real and what you think The answer

1:01:18

that is I think it's it's probably

1:01:20

a lot of gullible people out there

1:01:23

who just you know see these things

1:01:25

and think oh this is this is

1:01:27

real How impressive is that? I also

1:01:29

think that are people who probably don't

1:01:31

care in I've had this experience recently

1:01:33

that Facebook has decided that I'm really

1:01:36

into cabin core. You know these like

1:01:38

beautiful images of cabins in the mountains

1:01:40

stay cozy and beautiful and a ton

1:01:42

of these are just a I generated

1:01:44

very obviously if you look even a

1:01:46

little bit closely at them. And so

1:01:49

now whenever I see an image of

1:01:51

a cabin or something beautiful on Facebook

1:01:53

my first thought is always like is

1:01:55

that real Does that beautiful cabin actually

1:01:57

exist and and a lot of it.

1:02:00

The answer is no, it doesn't, It's

1:02:02

just being created for the purpose of

1:02:04

getting attention and engagements. You're telling me

1:02:06

that they're not just posting these images

1:02:08

to try to grow awareness of the

1:02:10

teachings and shrimp she sits at. The

1:02:12

maybe some of them are, but some

1:02:14

of them are also linking to eat

1:02:16

an ecommerce doors and you don't. Pretty

1:02:18

low quality and news sites. These are

1:02:20

basically just you know of the thing

1:02:22

that they will dangle in front of

1:02:24

people to get them to like or

1:02:26

subscribe to a page so that they

1:02:28

can feed them stuff. That's going. To

1:02:30

make them money or at benefited in

1:02:32

some way. So in other words cabinet

1:02:34

sounds like this is the latest ever

1:02:36

it or a sign up a very

1:02:38

old technique which is you try to

1:02:40

come up with the most universally appealing

1:02:42

images imaginable. you know like the public's

1:02:44

a baby animals has often been a

1:02:46

very popular ones he you growth of

1:02:48

the of the following and and once

1:02:50

you get it to a certain size

1:02:52

you sell the page and in people

1:02:54

to start raining spam on these poor

1:02:56

unsuspecting a baby Animal lovers read so.

1:02:59

Many. Does have policies that are

1:03:01

pretty new about a I generated

1:03:03

media, but Facebook does not appear

1:03:05

to be enforcing these rules very

1:03:07

consistently and they're basically saying will

1:03:09

look We're working on tools that

1:03:11

can automatically detect a I generated

1:03:13

content, but this research project at

1:03:15

least suggests that they're not having

1:03:17

total success. I guess a success

1:03:19

is sort of. The study suggests

1:03:21

I have I done this sort

1:03:23

of like to to avenues to

1:03:25

to pursue. Here's one is like

1:03:27

yes it is obviously bad. For scammers

1:03:29

to come along and grow these pages and

1:03:31

slip Sam and I'm sure that matter. Well

1:03:33

you know try to fight back against that

1:03:35

as best as a kid. Although you know

1:03:38

at the of the dead of never going

1:03:40

to be anything that stop somebody from creating

1:03:42

a page or gets popular. That's kind of

1:03:44

what the whole site is set up to

1:03:46

do. Rights of the City Request Same I

1:03:48

think is how we feel about these images

1:03:50

in general. How do we think about them

1:03:52

as items in the field? What are they

1:03:54

doing to our general sense of reality So

1:03:56

do have like an emotional reaction to the

1:03:58

flood of these. Images. Connected from

1:04:00

the kind of scam of at all

1:04:02

I do. And and in part that's

1:04:04

because you know, we now have seen

1:04:07

reports that a lot of the people

1:04:09

who are being serve these images are

1:04:11

older, people are seniors, are people who

1:04:13

you know, maybe aren't the most sophisticated

1:04:15

and discerning consumers of online media, and

1:04:17

who may actually be thinking that these

1:04:19

things are real And look, the stakes

1:04:21

are not existential here. We're not talking

1:04:24

about political misinformation, but I think this

1:04:26

is a good to have proof of

1:04:28

concept for how something like political. Misinformation

1:04:30

could take off. I mean I,

1:04:32

I saw. On. On Facebook

1:04:34

recently someone posted this a I generated image

1:04:37

of basically this underground city underneath the capital.

1:04:39

Have you seen this one? Yes, so this

1:04:41

is clearly fake. There is no underground city

1:04:43

beneath the capital, but this is the kind

1:04:46

of thing that conspiracy theorists have been talking

1:04:48

about four years. You know there are these

1:04:50

secret tunnels that allow you know members of

1:04:52

Congress to traffic children and they're located under

1:04:55

that the National Mall. Things like that's and

1:04:57

look, you could look at something like shrimp

1:04:59

Jesus and say wow, This is really funny

1:05:01

and kind of harmless that these pages. Or

1:05:04

do being people with is a I generated

1:05:06

images but it's It's a very short hop

1:05:08

from where we are now or Western freezes

1:05:11

to something that actually does catch fire and

1:05:13

does mislead a lot of people about something

1:05:15

important that is may be related to the

1:05:17

left. Some that's kind of where I come

1:05:20

down on it is that you know bit

1:05:22

by bit people are learning not to trust

1:05:24

their eyes anymore and it this is really

1:05:26

kind of the place where it starts. You

1:05:29

were just browsing your Facebook feed. it's you

1:05:31

thought you saw a cool dude who. Whittled

1:05:34

a hyper realistic version of his dog?

1:05:36

Any.that's. the coolest thing I've ever seen.

1:05:38

Any service. And then eventually someone pops

1:05:40

up in your comments and says hey

1:05:42

Dhabi Data sakes and that's only going

1:05:45

to have to happen to you a

1:05:47

few times before me, it's doesn't matter

1:05:49

what you see in your feet, you

1:05:51

are going to stop believing your own

1:05:53

eyes. And so while I don't want

1:05:55

to over dramatize this to this is

1:05:57

mostly just a funny story. There

1:06:00

is a double edged to this elite is

1:06:02

going to buy this Isaac. Yeah, I also

1:06:04

think this is just a pretty predictable results

1:06:06

of two things that have happened. One is

1:06:09

that the just an you know absolute proliferation

1:06:11

of these tools for generating fake images and

1:06:13

the fact that it's very hard to use

1:06:15

technology to detect these images, it's it's you

1:06:18

know, thought impossible. Been in some cases and

1:06:20

Facebook and Met I have said that they're

1:06:22

building tools of all wow them to automatically

1:06:24

detect the stuff, but it's never going to

1:06:26

be perfect. They're never going to be able

1:06:29

to catch everything and Ellison is So far

1:06:31

doesn't seem like they're trying all that hearts.

1:06:33

But I also think this is what happens

1:06:35

when you d prioritize news on a platform

1:06:38

we know we've talked about on the show

1:06:40

that Facebook for years now has been saying

1:06:42

we're going to show people less news and

1:06:44

their Facebook feeds because they don't want the

1:06:46

blowback. They don't feel like becomes a you

1:06:49

know responsibly serve that content to people spin

1:06:51

on think that are you know you their

1:06:53

users want as much news in their seeds.

1:06:55

But when you actually d prioritize news. In.

1:06:58

My opinion, what happens is that you don't

1:07:00

actually get less news, you just get more

1:07:02

shrimp. Jesus as you get more people who

1:07:04

are sharing dubious things that may look like

1:07:06

news. Maybe they have a link to some

1:07:08

site that maybe looks like a news sites

1:07:10

and you aren't you are people are still

1:07:12

interested in what's going on in the world,

1:07:14

but if you d prioritize news from trusted

1:07:16

publishers, you will just get a lot more

1:07:19

of this sloppy i generated garbage I think

1:07:21

that's right, cousin. And that's why I'm actually

1:07:23

excited to announce my new venture which I

1:07:25

think is going to get around this problem

1:07:27

and two birds with one. Stone with said

1:07:29

you've answered already lit. later next month I

1:07:31

will be debuting on face but the Shrimp

1:07:33

Jesus Gazette a sort of newsy diary of

1:07:35

all things French resistance. Me and my hope

1:07:37

is that that will entertain boomers for days

1:07:40

the com while also you know, feeding them

1:07:42

a little bit other vegetables. Levels of metabolism

1:07:44

around the world sucks. Wish me luck as

1:07:46

I lost the Census Gazette. obvious but I

1:07:48

love it. skews it. This is actually a.

1:07:51

Risk. For matter at all like it

1:07:53

in their whole reason for existence for

1:07:55

years has been to tell you what

1:07:57

is actually happening with your friends, with

1:07:59

your neighbors. With people in your community

1:08:01

and with the world at large if

1:08:03

it just starts being sort of a

1:08:05

dumping ground for all of these A

1:08:07

I generated images and these are scare

1:08:09

me and spare me attempts to his

1:08:12

of use engagement bait to get people's

1:08:14

attention and redirect them somewhere else. Do

1:08:16

you think ultimately people will be turned

1:08:18

off their products as a whole? I

1:08:20

mean it. It doesn't have to be

1:08:22

rights because. As you know,

1:08:24

they have policies that are designed to flag

1:08:26

this stuff and I think as long as

1:08:29

people know that what they're looking out

1:08:31

as air generate, it's it's fine. If I

1:08:33

follow an account on Instagram the just

1:08:35

makes these wonderful creations out as a eyes

1:08:37

and I love looking. I mean it,

1:08:39

it's it's really weird stuff. It's some I

1:08:41

would say a bit more sophisticated than

1:08:43

for Jesus, but there's nothing wrong with just

1:08:46

being creative online. As Reagan, the trouble

1:08:48

is when you don't enforce the policies you

1:08:50

have and it starts to save the

1:08:52

road that that sense. Of reality bullets. If

1:08:54

you're asking me, do I think that

1:08:56

there should be? It's actual high quality

1:08:58

news in news feeds on Facebook and

1:09:00

elsewhere. Yes, I always asking. Yeah. so

1:09:02

we'll keep tabs on Shrimp Jesus and

1:09:04

other A I generated images. By the

1:09:06

way, you know what? I'm. To

1:09:09

calls from Jesus and his followers are set.

1:09:11

A shrimp cocktail. Of

1:09:14

the. This

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A quick update to an interview we

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did hear a few weeks ago with

1:10:16

the great New York Times reporter touch

1:10:18

Me or Hill about the car companies

1:10:20

who were gathering all sorts of information

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about how you were driving your car.

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You're breaking your mileage, the dates and

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times, and selling that to data brokers

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who then sold some. The got a

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risk profile of individual drivers, do insurance

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companies and then of course their insurance

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rates went up wealth. Following that stories,

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General Motors says it is no longer

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doing that self. no more Gm. This

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will be else. On the road well

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done Cash. Football

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is produced by Ritual Cone and

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Demas Land where edited by Sensor

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yet for success by Cleveland Love

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Day so was engineered by Chris

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Wood. A result music by Marion

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was ah no wrote me myself

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a damp how our audience editor

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is no Globally Video production by

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Ryan Manning and Dylan Burger same

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it had Second Also a little

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extra thoughts on you do backup.

1:11:09

Settled, I suppose we went.

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Ham skill oppressive a. Jeffrey. Merida.

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you can email us for our time's

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