0:17

I'm sure swisher and you're listening

0:18

to sway with four kids. I've

0:20

watched a lot of Disney films over the years.

0:22

The latest incanto is already

0:24

huge hit with my two year old and

0:26

that Bruno song is seared forever in

0:28

my head. No, no, no.

0:36

Who's to blame that? In part

0:39

is former Disney. CEO. Bob Iger

0:41

has been in the entertainment

0:43

business for nearly fifty years he

0:45

and Disney for almost 15 during which

0:47

time he oversaw, an astonishing array of

0:49

deals among the purchase of

0:51

Pixar, Marvel Studios, lucasfilm

0:53

and various TV and film assets

0:55

from Fox. That means

0:57

Buzz, Lightyear, Captain, Marvel, Luke

1:00

Skywalker and The

1:02

Simpsons. He also oversaw

1:04

the launch of the streaming platform Disney

1:06

plus which now has over 100 million subscribers

1:08

ever became almost

1:10

synonymous with Disney. So it was

1:12

big news when announced in 2020 that he

1:14

would step down as CEO that year. and

1:16

would give up his chairman at the end of twenty

1:19

one now that he's a few weeks

1:21

into his retirement, to

1:23

ask him how he led almost hundred-year-old Studio

1:26

through the streaming Wars and find

1:28

out where he thinks Hollywood is going next. week.

1:31

imitation front of large audience at the Richmond

1:34

form.

1:38

Ah.

1:44

What bob people I?

1:46

see people's lives

1:48

No actually the metaverse so we'll see,

1:52

Very, very few people had a saying that

1:55

I would put on pants for because I've been living

1:57

and. And has two years

1:59

so.

2:00

They cater to be doing have a few

2:03

is, suited, to the do

2:06

you return? it says

2:08

the three weeks

2:09

Three weeks ago yes very different

2:11

still do I have to wait on lines a theme park

2:14

attractions okay I. don't

2:16

wear of bob name tag anymore her yeah

2:18

and i joked earlier don't tell my

2:20

wife's ever magical day every morning so

2:22

can't write for this and the matrix

2:25

The married as long as you say that to every

2:27

morning but three. weeks

2:29

so three weeks Yeah, I'm a rookie,

2:32

I am a brutal. He took

2:34

four times. I think right? You were going

2:36

to retire, not reply. Was always almost

2:39

Bob Iger leaving Disney and then you didn't

2:41

why did you do that? Now? What

2:43

was the thinking

2:44

thinking? Retirement, four

2:46

times as I think was just a bit

2:48

inflated but I always

2:51

wanted to leave.

2:53

when I. felt like I still

2:55

had it in me to do more, but

2:58

that things were good, and didn't wanna tempt

3:00

fate, and also didn't want to

3:02

get to a point. Where people's the company was, when

3:04

is he finally going to go and their garage's

3:07

couple of other factors, one

3:09

I think change at the top has value,

3:12

bring someone with? A fresh perspective psycho,

3:14

bring the windows and letting fresh

3:16

air blow, and secondly I was

3:18

starting to get a little bit

3:20

arrogant and little bit overconfident

3:23

in my own instincts. And what

3:25

I mean by that is was sensing

3:28

was becoming a little bit more impatient

3:30

or little bit more intolerable I should say

3:33

of other people's ideas I.

3:35

can think of subconsciously i feel like I.

3:38

Was always rider, I knew it all it is,

3:40

and things had been quite good at the company

3:42

in the period time that ever see how, and

3:44

so think that resulted. In my

3:46

believing in my own instincts so much

3:49

that was becoming a little bit less open

3:51

to other people's anyway, I felt it

3:53

was time greats.

3:54

One of the think the CBC polled ten media

3:56

executives anonymously another twenty

3:59

two prediction. And one was that,

4:01

you'll return to Disney is

4:04

what character

4:08

1973.

4:15

And i I am,

4:17

personally, i said

4:19

the people before I leave Disney, I'd like to do the

4:21

weather one more time. We on TV station to

4:23

write. So the

4:26

head of our station la7, you come

4:28

to the weather. So, the last week

4:30

was at Disney or two weeks before did the weather

4:33

back to Disney. i guess I i could become a weekend.

4:36

Weather in the weather with

4:38

a chance Sunny. Okay. Really

4:41

exciting for you can't

4:42

I

4:50

I a I

4:53

go home I'm gone out

4:57

of my name tag up. okay, my office,

4:59

my email address, so God.

5:01

In all the headaches that come with it, would you want to

5:03

be see you have any other companies with?

5:05

Think that think if I wanted to run

5:08

a company I'd still be running Disney no

5:10

no, I did that.

5:11

The one of the things is the crisis is that come with that,

5:13

Mrs. You're working on a book on crisis management

5:15

is also crisis right now I think

5:18

I'm and on the crisis precisely but that sounds

5:20

a shift around talent and.

5:23

Then. Economics of Hollywood and Change and

5:25

Dizzy was smack in the middle of it with

5:27

of a lawsuit with Scarlett johanson

5:29

around Black Widow releasing,

5:31

it to theaters and on the. Streaming platform

5:34

she sued, saying streaming was eating away box

5:36

office revenues she been palmists, "I

5:38

doubt you're going to talk specifically about this unless

5:41

you want, to fight my.

5:43

Always not really I didn't think of it, sees you

5:46

what's your take on fighting publicly

5:48

with one of the biggest stars and hollywood or this idea

5:50

of what's happening right now

5:53

It's very good question rather than speech

5:55

specific about. Her,

5:58

I like a lot personally. It

6:00

it, she's really talented.

6:03

Everything is changing really fast

6:05

to credible what technologies

6:07

doing to disrupt existing business

6:09

is business models business practices

6:12

including, how people

6:14

get paid all the sudden we get

6:16

to a point where digital media

6:18

Really. Transforms the movie business

6:21

and, many films which at

6:23

one point and we can put Covet aside

6:26

but one point would of just gone

6:28

through that process go to the big.

6:30

Theater first and then they immediately go to streaming

6:32

they skip all those other, are

6:34

now lot them don't even go to the big

6:37

screen the movie theaters they

6:39

go right. To Netflix

6:41

Amazon Apple Disney plus

6:43

Hulu Peacock paramount

6:45

You, name and there

6:48

Twenty seven of them at this point. How

6:50

many items now as lot of the, yeah?

6:54

The'so so there the digital

6:56

streamer, Netflix or

6:58

Disney typically the.

7:01

Is. Paying a flat fee for

7:03

the film and then it stays

7:05

on that platform sometimes forever, meaning

7:08

doesn't have any other life, so the revenue

7:10

that is associated with it one is.

7:13

Very different in terms have

7:15

where it comes from, but to it's

7:17

not like this direct revenue attributed

7:19

to that film right so the whole

7:21

industry right now is struggling

7:24

to contend. With how people

7:26

are paid in this new world order

7:29

and was happening with Scarlet

7:31

was that there was A.

7:33

First. Of all covered was really disrupting

7:35

what all he was, a business that was being disrupted,

7:38

and so first the decision was made to delay

7:40

delay, delay than ultimately decision

7:43

was made. To skip the movie theaters in

7:45

go directly of service and they're

7:47

obviously that created tension.

7:49

More than tension, Disney, tension, callous disregard

7:51

for the effects of coating, she said, your

7:54

annual bonus was tied performance at Disney,

7:56

plus I know you and talked the lot about the

7:58

streaming business model. causing

8:00

problems long ago when you started. It

8:03

did you have a choice. By choice,

8:05

in what sense? Terms of not going

8:07

to streaming, you had net flick sort lapping

8:09

all of you company.

8:10

Then. An hour if you're in the Rasmussen from

8:13

creating one costumes, entertainment

8:15

or enter or television and movies, you

8:17

not doing that for insist pro bono

8:19

a threat severity or now you're. Been the

8:21

business of making money doing it and you're going to

8:23

follow the money, which in this

8:25

case is following the consumer and

8:28

so you don't really have choice

8:30

if. You want to? Stay. In the

8:32

business or grow the business except

8:35

go in the streaming direction and

8:37

I made the decision for Disney do that and to thousand

8:39

fifteen we ultimately launched

8:42

Disney Plus in. To thousand nineteen

8:45

so, don't think there was choice

8:47

was there choice and selective films

8:49

yes but Ova took a lot that choice

8:52

accelerated tremendous, think I

8:54

what. Ova did actually accelerated

8:57

change in consumer behavior, which

8:59

is that for Ova is there was growth

9:01

in is streaming services, what

9:03

Ova did is it forced people in

9:06

and people still. Wanted be entertained, so

9:08

they figured out how to use basically

9:10

got out based television or out, based liked

9:13

and they got really comfortable with

9:15

it they not only liked. They discovered

9:18

that is huge choice this tremendous

9:20

amount of quality for

9:22

everybody the good side of this.

9:24

for talent is that

9:27

Because. Of technology was

9:29

enables more distribution and

9:31

more consumption, what the industry

9:33

has discovered really gross and consumption is

9:36

a growth in production, so there's lot

9:38

more being made there are. "Hundreds and hundreds

9:40

of TV series being made now, so

9:43

if you're writer or director

9:45

of traditional worked there for your", said much more

9:47

streaming.

9:48

Model M: When you think about were streaming"

9:50

is going is that the deaths of movie theaters

9:52

from I think theaters are gonna

9:55

become a smaller and smaller business doesn't mean they don't

9:57

exist, but it that it becomes less

9:59

and less because. Hello.

10:01

Cold like the Spiderman movie and any

10:03

time one can say like site in and

10:05

I get an A. [Catherine] Or

10:07

in anyone is like see and like it's one movie.

10:10

You imagine is going to happen to the

10:12

analog movie go.

10:13

Then. Family get the death I think it's a

10:16

severe injury know can earn

10:18

that maybe doesn't heal Falcon

10:21

and what I mean by that that,

10:23

not fatal success or. Be

10:25

fatal to some, would

10:28

start with a movie going experience of the say something

10:30

good about, that I. think

10:32

that people will still

10:35

want to go to movies however

10:38

They will be much more I think discerning

10:40

about what movies they want to see

10:43

out. of the home where you're

10:45

likely i think to make to say

10:48

or ask yourself whether mean is this a movie i need

10:50

to see on the big screen and do all that For

10:53

can I wait were not even wait that

10:55

matter see it at home you, know Spider

10:57

Man which Marvel and

11:00

Walt Disney Company produced for Sony?

11:02

when that came out there were slew a people

11:05

around the world want see it first weekend and

11:07

there or films like that but there lot

11:09

films that don't fit into that category or

11:11

that don't really need to be watched into larger

11:14

than life experience and so i think

11:16

what you're going to see is far fewer

11:18

films released Where the big screen?

11:21

We thought of plane movies or a seat on the pie

11:23

but now course went on planes and.

11:26

i'm the movie going experience is horrible

11:28

and as much as these expensive it is improved

11:31

in some places certainly but it's not

11:33

one that has improved in terms of

11:35

experience to even see some

11:37

of them have gotten better but not lot of them and

11:40

then when you lay are cool with and it's like oh boy

11:42

The put into the Great Lakes

11:44

so itchy. The a movie

11:46

going it's.

11:47

Yeah I'm going to be a little bit more kind

11:49

to movie theater owners there is

11:51

some that Sir figured it out and have improve

11:54

the experience and better chairs that recline

11:57

just. generally better service the ability to buy

11:59

tickets online And. A but there's no

12:01

question that it has to be perfect is very

12:03

unforgiving for people to really want

12:05

to do it because they have alternatives and by

12:07

the way it's not. Even about whether you watch

12:09

a movie on the big screen or at

12:11

home, it's just you of so many more choices

12:14

in the home, think about the number

12:16

TV series that. We're talking about at

12:18

quality level that's pretty good, much

12:21

better from production value perspective

12:23

than it used to be there movies when we

12:25

make to, Mandalorian

12:27

or I say we. Of not allowed to say we anymore

12:30

lost the ability say we three weeks ago,

12:33

a when I used to when

12:35

they whenever, a,

12:38

say. no do

12:41

that you we're to look at some of

12:43

the film some of the tv shows that disney

12:46

has made Handler and being one

12:48

the Marvel series toxin,

12:50

were soldier loki each

12:52

one of those is a movie yeah they were so

12:55

this just movie theaters have much more

12:57

competition than they ever had before

12:59

So I just interviewed Joseph Gordon Levitt on

13:01

Sway and he told me that Silicon Valley now

13:03

owns Hollywood, a you have had

13:06

lot of experience, attack thumb buttons,

13:08

talk little bit about that idea of tech owning

13:11

Hollywood now see Amazon's an apples

13:13

in. Of kind of and.

13:15

I don't think anybody owns Hollywood

13:18

no one ever will but. there's

13:20

no question that is deep pocketed

13:23

technology companies apple

13:25

the great example that amazon

13:27

being another figured

13:29

out that if they make intellectual property

13:32

or tell stories that,

13:34

it will benefit their other businesses and Amazon's

13:37

case to sell more prime. customers

13:39

and apple's case i imagine to so more

13:41

devices and so they've figured

13:44

out that they can make tv and movies

13:46

sigma little time but not too long

13:49

to figure out how to make really good ones ted vassals

13:51

a great example of really fine so they

13:53

made thought nothing to do with me i'm

13:56

and right now i'm like all of you are that one

13:58

i can't wait for the next episode The

14:00

next season to start, but. The

14:04

trouble is competing with Miss Hard because

14:06

I don't have was he just as a loss leader businesses

14:08

blair those later that either in those business

14:10

for other reasons.

14:12

nonetheless they have so much money

14:14

like the money they have is, you know, this is a rounding

14:16

error.

14:17

A. I can only speak for Disney,

14:20

a we viewed them all of them is competitors,

14:23

but we never worried

14:25

that they were going to put us out of business or

14:27

own. Hollywood for particularly since,

14:30

and maybe this was conscious decision that

14:32

we made actually I made

14:35

when became speak co, is that if

14:37

we own a lot of high. Quality

14:39

branded content then,

14:42

we marvel or marvel Pixar

14:44

Star Wars the Simpson's avatar

14:47

you name it National Geographic that

14:50

would enable us to withstand

14:53

not only disruption of.

14:55

A business but the incursion of new

14:57

entrance into the business even very

15:00

deep pocketed. very competitive

15:03

competitors Because you had all this.

15:05

Because. They can't make Starwars movie they can't

15:07

make a thor movie they can maybe

15:10

figure out how to make animation but doing,

15:12

the pixar level are the Disney level

15:14

after. decades have doing the, you

15:17

don't just snap your fingers and make great film,

15:19

but you think about all the intellectual property

15:21

marvel has seven thousand characters and

15:24

when that red? Marvel comes on

15:26

which purposeful and are part when we bought them,

15:28

which has put spotlight on the brand, it

15:30

means something to the audience and the stories

15:33

are now interwoven. And so

15:35

there's seamless ness between the television series

15:37

and the movies basically the story

15:40

telling over multiple. genres

15:43

and multiple media has

15:45

real value and they don't have that Yeah.

15:49

That's when maybe that's what are the reasons we're retired

15:51

and in your face?

15:54

Because one of the things I was thinking remember taking

15:56

a David's as losses now going to be leading that

15:58

combine Warner Discovery. I'm

16:00

one of the things I kept thinking is.

16:03

You are too small or these media

16:05

companies to small when you're looking

16:07

at with the raid again.

16:08

Media though, these media

16:10

companies leave Disney out. because

16:13

disney's not to small but

16:15

when rupert murdoch called

16:17

me

16:19

Two thousand and seventeen.

16:23

To talk about possibly buying

16:25

some of the assets of his company he,

16:28

asked me whether i saw They

16:30

were too small and. could

16:32

they basically survive

16:35

All this new competition and

16:37

he was thinking, "I think smartly"

16:40

The exiting good part of the business

16:42

because he worried that they didn't have the scale. I.

16:45

Was thinking the time knowing that we were going to

16:47

be launching Disney Plus and going

16:49

into streaming business that if

16:51

we had on top of Marvel Pixar

16:54

Star Wars Disney E. S. P.

16:56

and a be c if we had

16:58

national geographic and the Simpsons

17:00

and Avatar and the whole

17:03

Fox Library and the Great

17:05

People Talent that came with

17:07

those assets that. We would have

17:09

the scale particularly go into streaming

17:11

business.

17:12

Who does it, the other companies look the I

17:14

just registered about comcast not having enough,

17:16

or do think?

17:18

For Disney in,

17:20

in enviable position right now because this

17:23

because I'm not working for Disney I'm kind liberated

17:25

I can anything anybody but

17:27

I'm going to choose not the single anybody out.

17:31

i think scale is an issue

17:33

for a lot of the traditional companies

17:36

that were in the television an movie business

17:39

When at all of them than okay.

17:41

am so You know that your interpretation

17:44

what I did the correct?

17:45

But if you didn't own a platform when you

17:48

think about owning platforms is. The

17:50

i to flee important yes. Around the whole

17:52

idea, and I mean that abroad.

17:54

Was Disney was licensing movies to Netflix

17:56

and they were building helping to

17:58

build their platform? The get on

18:00

the back of A.

18:02

"Our movies and having the direct relationship

18:04

with a consumer and building

18:06

this global"

18:08

Description: Business we're say, did a brilliant job

18:10

frilly, they go, they deserve lot of credit

18:12

while they were doing that they were using

18:15

some of the circulation that we help them. Create

18:18

and the subscription growth to fund

18:20

their own room television and movie

18:22

production directly competitive with

18:24

us for talent and stores, and it

18:26

I woke up one day and so we're. Basically

18:28

selling nuclear weapons technology

18:30

to a third world country and now they're using

18:33

it against us, yeah, that's real literally

18:35

what I said, so we decided

18:37

at the time that we. Would stop.

18:39

Licensing to Netflix and

18:41

do it ourselves and it resulted

18:44

in substantial, decrease

18:46

in our revenue because we wean ourselves

18:48

all that licensing. but

18:50

it thrusts us into a business that is most

18:53

compelling growth engine intermediate

18:55

today

18:56

Right? For Disney and for the rest of them, so

18:58

when you think about this many streaming

19:00

platforms I know pay for all of them right

19:02

now why don't know my.

19:04

Children do it if they just keep clicking

19:07

and that's the end of, why I'm here talking

19:09

to you anyway I'm. can

19:11

there be this many Can

19:14

there be that many plan? It is still too

19:16

early to tell does. The become bundle.

19:18

Tell Disney's Bundling Holo and ESPN

19:20

plus: "Yeah, don't think yeah, I don't know

19:22

think it's to early to tell everybody's trying

19:25

don't think they'll all succeed. The

19:27

reactors probably know from the now.

19:29

If any one you'd like to call out from under,

19:32

the bottom of the sat other and that

19:34

pile

19:36

Okay German,

19:39

okay so some

19:41

Although they had Yellowstone

19:43

and they gave it over to Peacock, what's going on with they? The

19:46

know.

19:46

Why the way watch Yellowstone One?

19:49

the things i'm thinking of is recently microsoft

19:51

announced buying activision for seventy billion

19:53

dollars activision is obviously had some cultural

19:55

issues but lots of these gaming companies do but

19:58

can you talk little bit why that wasn't

20:00

By entertainment company that will sort

20:02

of striking that it was a tech company.

20:03

We're. Microsoft's, acquisition

20:07

in terms money most and

20:09

going back to what you are suggesting about

20:11

the entertainment companies not having the, scale

20:14

not necessarily an solid ground

20:16

from financial. Perspective and

20:18

I don't think the they could have easily

20:20

done it I'm comcast big enough to, do that

20:23

a but I don't think most

20:25

cases they're were so energies to. Be gained

20:28

from and entertainment company buying those in

20:30

Microsoft's case in I'm and outsider looking

20:33

at this clearly they're already in.

20:35

the gaming space i'm both

20:37

on the platform side and with games so

20:40

i think that in natural fit and

20:42

that gaming and playing games

20:44

could be very large

20:47

component for the consumer

20:49

Have an internet three point o metaphors

20:51

expressions do. The entertainment companies need to

20:53

be here then. Really

20:57

hard, you can still a lot of money very

20:59

quickly getting into that

21:01

need to be.

21:03

No no I entertainment companies

21:05

is to survive and an Internet three

21:07

point o world's you

21:10

need. to have some really compelling intellectual

21:12

property

21:13

Turn. into metres really get them that the seconds, but

21:15

I want to talk about two things, data, and then Steve

21:18

Jobs, it's a little bit in terms of what you learn from.

21:20

Him, but it your final dizzy board retreat,

21:22

you said, in world of business that is awash

21:24

in data, it seems tempting to use

21:26

data as an answer to all our. Questions including

21:28

creative question: I urge you are not to

21:30

do that at the same time your person

21:33

took over a few bumps, having said that

21:35

disease they would data driven company.

21:37

What is entertainment now is it data

21:39

or is creature?

21:40

I won't comment about what Bob said

21:43

but what, you're quoting me

21:45

having said which is accurate was attending

21:47

what was our last the last Disney

21:49

board retreat. that i would be

21:52

at and opened the meeting

21:54

thinking that would leave them with some

21:56

advice on how to

21:58

go forward

22:00

And having spent almost

22:02

fifty years and the creative side of our business

22:05

he. became more clear to me that

22:07

while data

22:09

Was already playing a very important role

22:11

that is should not be used to

22:14

determine what stories are told

22:16

if we had tried to mine all

22:18

the data that we had at the time to.

22:22

Determine whether we should make. A

22:24

superhero movie. There

22:26

was essentially about an Afro.

22:29

futuristic world with

22:31

it like Test. Then. Data probably

22:33

would have said "Don't do that" and Black

22:35

Panther never would have been made their

22:37

a number of examples of that where someone's

22:40

instinct or group of people's instinct"

22:43

On whether story is

22:45

worthy of being told and

22:47

is in the hands of people who would tell

22:49

it really well, I don't think

22:52

a machine or data no matter

22:54

how. Much.

22:56

Technology enables a

22:58

sensory input of massive amounts

23:00

of information to be processed,

23:02

I don't think you get to the right answers to that

23:04

is when he went. Okay.

23:08

And. Again I,

23:10

think it's valuable once you make something

23:13

it's really valuable to learn about

23:15

what people liked about it, what they didn't like

23:18

should it continue, interestingly

23:20

enough very. Effective and how to market

23:23

there's that famous quote which I don't pocket

23:25

learn not about Henry Ford instead

23:27

if he been asked what people wanted

23:29

they would have said a faster. , instead

23:32

of. a car i you

23:34

know it to me

23:36

It is somewhat analogous to

23:39

any, human beings to make those decisions.

23:42

about steve

23:42

Then. Is one of the people who did like stories

23:45

is Steve Jobs compared to a lot I mean I'm sure you've

23:47

met a million sek people in there is tell

23:49

you how. They consider everything out the it's

23:51

technology bit dusty was quite interested

23:54

in narrative and storytelling, he did that with

23:56

the products of Apple stuff to talk

23:58

little bit about what. You know? One of your

24:00

most significant import.

24:01

replacing used really Disney as

24:03

person to became very close

24:06

friends first,

24:08

of all Steve respected storyteller and

24:10

respected the art of storytelling knowing

24:12

that. a great story really

24:15

well told was miracle and many ways

24:17

that it wasn't just and accident and

24:20

i think a lot of people in the tech world

24:22

because they've been so tech intricacies have

24:25

not had the time and their lives of experience

24:27

to understand the intricacies

24:29

storytelling the beauty of it and

24:31

really the magic of at all and

24:34

when steve bought pixar from george

24:36

lucas he immediately became

24:38

first in real storytelling

24:41

and he was already storyteller heart

24:43

just look at the marketing that he used

24:46

tell stories about apple product but this

24:48

opened his eyes in big way

24:51

to the power of great stories so

24:53

when we bought pixar from him and he became

24:55

the lawyer shareholder of disney and

24:58

then ultimately replacing

25:00

steve on the apple board but

25:02

steve knew that

25:04

not only that there's miracle great

25:06

storytelling but that the combination

25:09

of using wonderful technology

25:12

Who? Both tell better stories with

25:14

Pixar did just using technology

25:16

richer for the answers and or Lucas,

25:19

but then technology could be used to

25:21

normally distributed more effectively,

25:24

but the consumer that. Way so

25:26

I think he, was very unique

25:29

in terms of all the people I've met in the tech

25:31

business I've never met anyone the comes

25:33

close. to that The

25:36

understanding and count the comprehension

25:38

chef. The be George Lucas, right, which

25:40

you bought that company. Yes. think George

25:42

Lucas was the storyteller, first, the

25:45

understood the power of technology

25:47

in storyteller hands, Walt Disney

25:50

was another, by the way, Disney once said,

25:52

that "no matter what happens" In terms

25:54

of the advances in technology, it

25:56

will improve or expand the purview

25:58

of the storyteller. Then he was thinking

26:01

that he could tell better stories using

26:03

the tools of technology which is where

26:05

George did and it's with Steve

26:07

did what he bought Pixar and

26:10

when, i think about steve why things

26:12

miss the most is engaging

26:15

with a person who was such brilliant

26:17

technologists Really

26:20

got the other side of left right

26:22

brain and the extraordinary, an extraordinary.

26:24

Imagine. The technology when I'm thinking about Lucas

26:27

years ago, I try was we were doing an interview

26:29

and said, say, listen, mister wars and anything

26:31

else he creates and I. Said some day

26:33

every said be distributed over the streaming

26:35

and went on and on about the suspect ten years ago

26:38

and said the you need studio site.

26:40

Well, say.

26:42

Well. Studios can provide

26:44

and important function it's money, of course

26:47

a and, and because they understand

26:49

the processes somewhat messy

26:51

and sometimes of the studio executive

26:53

is really good, they can add. Perspective and

26:55

actually help creator see things

26:58

that the creator might not see because they're so close

27:00

to them, and sometimes it's also

27:03

marketing and platform and brand

27:06

so you. Know you're story teller and you want tell

27:08

story about superheroes you're better off

27:11

telling with Marvel superheroes

27:13

distributed by Disney than you are

27:15

with Apple doesn't have any superheroes

27:17

and creating. One cara swisher

27:19

superhero and distributed luck.

27:29

We'll be back in a minute.

27:31

You might have been of you and wanna hear others follow us

27:33

on your favorite podcast, and you'll be able

27:35

to catch up on say episodes you may have missed

27:37

like my conversations with Jeffrey Katzenberg

27:40

and you get new ones delivered directly to you.

27:43

Why with Bob Igiger after?

27:58

There is a call to break. Tech companies

28:00

that are too powerful talk about what

28:02

you think the current situation right now,

28:05

looking at new to so me backstage, it

28:07

can't be regulated.

28:08

Well, you have this

28:11

growth and need companies that's just extraordinary,

28:14

and I think it is likely

28:16

that you'll see as an attempt to regulate

28:19

them lot more, the competition

28:22

is that.

28:23

The I think the technology businesses

28:26

that would be regulated are

28:28

much more complex and much

28:30

more difficult to understand

28:32

and figure out how to even write the

28:34

right legislation to regulate

28:36

them with and. so i

28:38

happen to be a pessimist i know that he

28:41

was going to try was

28:43

the us government does or not don't know

28:46

but just don't think it's as easy

28:48

as it sounds And yet

28:50

they continue to get larger and larger, am

28:52

not editorializing about that, I

28:54

think, with size, sometimes comes

28:56

abuse, and their of you could argue

28:59

that now there are different ways. (SIGHS)

29:02

Creates abuse pricing leverage over

29:04

the consumer mean or might be one way

29:06

you'd look anti competition or anti

29:09

competitive positions. but

29:11

i just think that Then

29:13

they get bigger. They will

29:16

be in the crosshairs more and more,

29:18

but I am. Breaking them

29:20

up.

29:21

His I don't, don't think

29:23

there's anything that's gonna happen, it's imminent

29:25

someone.

29:25

Finish. On you talked about this idea, what

29:28

government can do you this government that hasn't

29:30

done anything about tech, for example, when

29:32

you look at the current political situation

29:34

it's so partisan. You know part

29:36

of Disney was bring everybody together

29:38

it's most happiest place on Earth a

29:41

is not happy place right now in.

29:44

general and this country is particularly unhappy

29:46

sort of middle of mental break

29:47

Don't and who to go to Disney World, no, I go.

29:53

Now I I.

29:56

spent three days disney world

29:58

last week Too felt

30:01

great I.

30:06

It smells like cinnamon rolls.

30:08

The time can I.

30:10

know

30:11

Some that is it literally something

30:13

zero smell, I know.

30:14

There has already I did, like the soft

30:16

serve on the cries of Florida

30:18

where you're going with this don't even have.

30:21

You are good or think about running for president,

30:23

is that correct?

30:24

I. Was thinking about running for president yes

30:26

one point of my life and what happens life,

30:30

happens, I thought

30:32

you were with my wife she knows me

30:34

well enough to. Know as he splits is

30:36

that when see a mountain I don't talk about

30:38

climbing and typically climate is just

30:40

too I. am so see

30:43

felt when i saw told her was thinking about

30:45

running for president That I was going

30:47

to do it and see. After.

30:50

Some tears she, told me

30:53

that could run for any office in the land

30:55

but not with this White House, says

30:58

to put it but see soften on, that

31:01

it was not something and was seriously

31:03

considering it was not something the family

31:06

was happy about. at all but

31:09

Then. got into it more and studied

31:11

the political environment in the United

31:14

States this is in are

31:16

usually start talking about it before the two

31:18

thousand and sixteen race, but. Then two thousand and

31:20

twenty and, I'm a registered

31:23

Democrat but I consider myself, a

31:25

centrist it became more and more clear

31:27

to me that getting the nomination

31:30

in. Today's, world which

31:32

may says lot about politics to would be really

31:35

hard if. not impossible and

31:37

then

31:38

In when I was thinking about it, which was two thousand

31:40

seventeen.

31:42

I. Had get conversations was Rupert Murdoch about

31:44

buying those assets initially was

31:46

a seventy billion dollar purchase I

31:48

knew was not going to be able to go to the Disney board.

31:50

And say, "Hey, I'd like to buy these

31:53

assets for seventy billion and buy the way I'm leaving"

31:56

The run for president would have anything

31:58

to do anything. Though I'd

32:01

put the whole thing for side one,

32:03

didn't think had great

32:05

chances to my failings

32:07

against the three, my job getting the when

32:10

what would have been your platform. I.

32:14

The trains would run on today's the streets would

32:18

modern, the streets would at

32:20

be place under, the

32:30

this was, in,

32:32

today's, World I. Was

32:35

grew up in under modern circumstances

32:38

started the be which became

32:40

this the under for on became place in

32:42

this the for and became

32:44

the up the. world this up and the i

32:47

modern up and up in up and which admit

32:49

the which and under this

32:52

for

32:53

simplistic naive, maybe idealistic,

32:55

but I had this notion that every kid in

32:58

America should grow up believing.

33:00

That they could be me meaning. They

33:03

could follow their dreams and achieve

33:05

them that they could start off with nothing and become

33:07

something however, you lead

33:10

of fulfilling life and that America

33:12

would provide them with opportunity.

33:16

whether they were a black or white rich

33:18

or poor suburb and urban rural

33:20

you name it

33:22

That's what I would have wanted for America now

33:24

again, very simplistic, but

33:26

that's this was my thinking, are you?

33:28

"Optimistic about you know, joking,

33:30

but the happy say centers as gets a moderately

33:33

not piss off all the time would be great.

33:36

What what are you, I'm an optimistic person

33:38

I'm concerned? Really concerned,

33:41

the so much dysfunction.

33:43

Right? Now and I think book the Internet and

33:45

technology is the ability to be great uniter

33:47

and a great divider, I think what

33:49

we're seeing now is the divider's

33:52

effect of all. Of that much more

33:54

and so everything is fragmented in

33:56

terms of political views even

33:59

now A. Spewed about what the truth

34:01

is in fact and that's concern

34:03

to me. So I'm not I'm

34:06

not optimistic but. refuse

34:08

to be a pessimist to I don't know where

34:10

that puts me but. This

34:14

it's disheartening right now.

34:16

Right on that, we have a lot of great quotes

34:18

as the audience.

34:20

What responsibility American business leaders

34:22

have to carry out American ideals of the answer

34:25

markets, a differing societal values like China?

34:27

Well. Um, in terms of

34:29

responsibilities to the country

34:32

in American Ideals, Disney is

34:34

a global company and does business

34:36

in just about every market in the world,

34:39

safer, couple North Korea. Being won

34:42

and, when you do business around the

34:44

world um, this is not cop out

34:46

but, you have to

34:48

conform to variety

34:51

of different things about

34:53

the. Market you're doing business, in and

34:55

you try in the process not to compromise

34:58

world. call values but

35:01

there are compromises the companies

35:03

have to To be global. And

35:06

I get I'm not condoning urban

35:08

there are times when you draw the line so just we're

35:11

not going to do it now not.

35:13

entering a market if it's huge

35:15

market and you want to be global company and you

35:17

looking for growth it's very hard How

35:19

to promote the for companies entering China

35:21

now? In order to I think the first difficulty

35:24

about China is that if you're doing

35:26

business globally you'd like at least the

35:28

country that your based in to have this relations

35:30

with the country's you're trying to do business with

35:33

and. the tension between the united states

35:35

and china has not made it any

35:38

easier to do business there And

35:41

think.

35:42

My optimism about certain

35:44

markets, which was extraordinary

35:47

at one point, has been diminished to bed.

35:49

Okay, an L, you have a friend in the total

35:51

shit, Alex, have you ever personally pitched

35:54

show or movie idea is so was

35:56

it produced? I

35:59

always have did.

36:00

Ever? Had ideas most good time

36:02

I was politely last that I,

36:05

had a titles that they couldn't really to

36:07

throw me out of the room had listen

36:09

and then what? Was it Guinea would rather would get back

36:12

to me I don't know I, piss

36:15

in a day for six months about teenage

36:17

kid who had? A mother that was ridiculously,

36:20

sexy, for

36:22

said they thought

36:24

that. was of sarah just

36:26

i remember that but then a lot of

36:28

i remember what do you were right on I.

36:31

Can't help that are you there was

36:33

a video this is we're going into this can be

36:37

was, running around spaces mom,

36:41

was as, way

36:44

out of every. ounce of wayne yeah

36:46

they thought I was crazy there are ya ha

36:48

is a bad idea you hope by the way you

36:51

would have radios cancelled. you hope you

36:53

hope you create an environment goes back to we

36:55

talked about earlier were people feel that

36:57

they is this is safe space the

37:00

says disagreement or descent now

37:02

as around the same time i

37:04

exhorted a b c to do a series The

37:06

I'm drama series around

37:08

and heroic woman surgeon. And

37:11

just around that time, woman

37:14

named Shonda Rhimes had kissed to ideas.

37:17

The A. B. C one was about

37:19

our heroic workers, finance and the other

37:21

one was about. The young

37:23

surgeons. Then I became resonated

37:26

may not my pitch my, but

37:28

I. We both sort of supported

37:31

the same idea.

37:32

What an anonymous again, what is Dizzy done to

37:34

whether the great resignation that other companies

37:37

could learn from IOS? The great reassessment.

37:40

Then I would tell me what is going on there, why

37:43

don't people want to work is John Cena

37:45

just sat and their cigarettes.

37:49

That they're also jobs that need

37:51

to be filled by my own up any yes

37:53

and you better quickly

37:55

address was your immigration policies pursued,

37:58

gonna run out of people to.

38:01

You. If you're mean at first of all, if you're Disney

38:03

or have you're any company A, you have to be an

38:05

attractive place to work, what does that mean competitive

38:08

wages in? Inflationary time

38:10

that becomes even more tricky when you're

38:12

trying to grow you're profits and things

38:14

or going up in terms have cost, but

38:16

you have to be competitive, you have to. Create opportunity

38:19

at Disney, we put in place plan.

40:00

Warner and then add onto that

40:02

food and transportation and health care,

40:04

and it's tough, and if you want

40:06

to fill your positions, you gotta think about

40:08

that.

40:09

Okay, what is this is Matt Cain, what is your

40:11

perspective on the metaverse and as cheese

40:13

and other emerging technologies in their potential

40:15

impact on entertainment media was? And as

40:17

I think to work.

40:19

I. Think the Internet three point O, which

40:22

will definitely be more compelling and experience,

40:24

doesn't certainly more immersive,

40:27

more dimensional, I think they'll be

40:29

a lot to that in terms of A. Future and

40:31

follow metaverse I don't think they'll be one metaverse

40:34

affects the talk about democratization

40:37

that will be dispersed area,

40:39

are you may have an avatar field

40:42

go all? "Over the place and think

40:44

that it's likely to be develop

40:46

into something real as an experience,

40:49

that said there's been enough", said

40:51

and criticized about toxic behavior

40:53

in Internet. To point know Twitter

40:55

Facebook you name it imagine

40:57

what can happen when you have a

41:00

much more compelling an immersive

41:02

an occult collective of people

41:04

or avatars of. people in

41:07

that environment and what kind of toxic behavior

41:10

could happen

41:11

I'm thinking about telling my kids

41:13

that they should start creating.

41:15

Technology tools to moderate

41:18

behavior Internet three point oh because

41:20

I think it's going to be huge challenge so.

41:23

i think in something disney's going have to consider

41:25

as it talks about creating a metaverse

41:27

themselves as moderating and monitoring

41:30

behavior That's difficult for company like Disease

41:33

gonna keep it. While the dander to so

41:35

high, particularly since you have kids and.

41:37

And I think it's something that has to be considered.

41:40

Then you think Instagram should make Instagram

41:42

for kids? No. Now

41:45

but it's not my business to do

41:47

thing and of teaser they can earn a real

41:50

I was a big trading card Sanders

41:52

kids baseball cards if.

41:54

the ability to collect things even

41:56

if their digital you know we forget in our generation

42:00

Then.

42:00

Things don't have to be physical they can be digital

42:03

nerve meaning to people and,

42:05

as long as that meaning can be especially

42:07

substantiated and i'm block chain

42:10

i think you could see explosion of things

42:12

being created traded

42:14

collected In enough to yourself.

42:17

Does he has not gone into the serious heavily?

42:19

Disney. Has Disney done some licensing,

42:22

I'm not think don't have all

42:24

the details because happened and the

42:26

very end of my watch, but there

42:28

is some look there think about all. The copyright and trademarks

42:31

characters Disney has, and the F.

42:33

T. possibility is there.

42:34

They can also be stolen lot, there's been a lot of

42:36

fraud around that.

42:39

And called the other thing I've noticed went on

42:41

platform called Open C which

42:43

was a platform to of buy and trade

42:45

and if T S and. um

42:47

i was amazed disney stuff was there most

42:50

was pirated most was um was

42:52

not created by people who other right to create

42:55

not like early you to this you recall i've

42:58

What'so so all right, Jenny, what Disney

43:00

character do you most relate with?

43:05

I. Choose their videos and was your

43:07

favorite, I was a Tinkerbell, I don't know why there were

43:09

so easy, and then they say, would you like

43:11

to be, and was a? Sore but that was because Chris

43:13

Hemsworth worth is just a god or monomers,

43:16

like that might soon enough

43:18

I relate believe. i

43:20

think of really more of a woody than buzz

43:25

What have you found to be the superpower that you

43:27

possess that has led to your success, I want your

43:29

actually tell me what super power you would like?

43:33

I have don't know whether this

43:35

is my parents doing or was born this way

43:38

we're both, but have an incredible

43:40

work ethic, just.

43:42

Work hard and it serve

43:45

me incredibly well.

43:47

And right next to that, which

43:49

I know was drawn out by my parents

43:51

as an insatiable curiosity to just

43:53

learn more and more, how come? It

43:55

would have been an actual super power. Like

43:59

why? They don't run faster, what like

44:01

rotting? You make Marvel movies is

44:03

like of.

44:04

But there was a fantasy, I know what is your

44:06

fantasy superpower, oh, is my senses.

44:09

I'm not saying you're going to get it.

44:13

The invisibility thought his.

44:14

No, no, only know

44:16

already know the only around, and

44:19

I don't have an ambition to be a

44:21

superhero, I nervously don't appear

44:23

where mean superpowers.

44:29

Did you were just make the internals, I mean, come on,

44:31

which one would you like? The

44:33

live forever. This which when

44:35

you want?

44:36

None of them you know super power on Mama.

44:38

be invisible them

44:41

I'd like to be a know I'd like others and love

44:43

to be of the paint. Oh, there

44:45

is no difference. When I return,

44:47

an average bush sent me a note saying, "What are you gonna

44:49

do now, paint?" Then. The

44:53

you own George Bush and seventy

44:55

the book.

44:55

No no of, okay. what

44:58

criticism of disney company has

45:01

you the hardest

45:03

Well, I'd take any criticism

45:05

about how we've freezer people

45:07

very, I took it very personally.

45:11

We be there will be it. The have a specific

45:13

one.

45:15

Well. That is the main one's wages,

45:17

but I in I've defended that before

45:20

because we're a one of the first companies are going

45:22

to ten dollars an hour we went to. fifteen dollars

45:24

an hour minimum wage in both cases

45:26

they were higher than state and federal minimums

45:28

at the time you, know when you

45:30

manage these companies you're balancing. Multiple

45:34

forces when it comes to finances

45:36

and this is not excuse, but you

45:39

need to grow your profits for, your shareholders

45:43

maybe I'm talking some government officials right now.

45:45

That this is just as. for the help he

45:47

needs is that you need to keep your pricing

45:50

reasonable for consumers

45:52

in mind

45:53

The inflationary environment is gets even

45:55

more critical and you'd like to pay

45:57

your people whatever it takes to make them. Happy.

46:00

And to keep them motivated, but they

46:02

all could have to fit in with one another

46:04

in some in a very careful

46:06

balance because it

46:09

if I don't know anybody would. Want to pay their

46:11

people more, but then you gotta figure out with

46:13

we do that, and you have to grow your bottom

46:15

line, can you raise prices

46:17

and then you are? You alienate you, consumers

46:20

and nice, so it's a delicate balance.

46:22

The maybe get paid, CEOs us how kids

46:24

who?

46:27

That are you know I. knew

46:29

The walk right into it, he just literally

46:31

walked right into it again as question,

46:33

can you sum up your legacy inside

46:36

words or less?

46:40

Good. I cannot resist my eyes came

46:42

saw conquered six or,

46:46

five words or less now just say want was

46:48

fortunate enough to be can hinder. The keys to

46:50

the Kingdom to them get the opportunity

46:53

to run a company that has

46:55

an incredible reputation and was important

46:57

in the world and I wanted to make sure

46:59

when. left that burnish that legacy

47:02

that it was stronger, more admired

47:04

better than it was when got it, feel

47:06

that ever classic five words that wasn't so

47:08

I. Can get you can, say.

47:12

that i

47:15

was a force

47:19

May the force be with you that say that? The

47:22

run high. Okay.

47:36

Latin America.

47:37

And it's produced Blakeney,

47:40

chick Daphne Chen Caitlin O'Keefe

47:42

and Wyatt Orme, edited Nagi

47:44

Maras,. with original music by

47:46

isaac jones Mixing by Isaac Jones

47:48

and Carol Summer rolls and fact checking

47:50

by keep Sinclair and. Mary March locker.

47:54

Banks to Shannon Buster, Christian Men and

47:56

Christina Stimulus.

48:00

Nicholas Seaver and the team at the rich.

48:04

Irene. Noguchi, executive producer

48:06

of New York Times opinion audio if

48:09

you're podcast app already, you know how to

48:11

get you're podcast, so follow this one

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if you're listening on the Times website. And want get

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48:25

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