0:18

A swisher and

0:20

you're listening to sway. My

0:22

guest today is Patrick. Radden, Keefe a

0:24

A staff writer for the New Yorker and the

0:26

author of one of the most gripping books. I've read

0:28

lately title, Empire of

0:30

pain, the secret history of the Sackler Dynasty.

0:34

He tells the story of the family behind Purdue

0:36

Pharma and Oxycontin Aka.

0:39

the family that helped create an opioid crisis

0:41

that kill the hundreds of thousand That Americans

0:43

and got rich off it. The hurt

0:45

my seemed a lot like any wealthy thing. Only

0:48

eat in inviting lavish vacation home.

0:50

A museum donations to spread the family name

0:52

and fat their egos yet, their

0:54

role in helping the nation get hooked on opioids

0:57

is the story of a particular The greed.

1:00

The story where the bad guys and gals get

1:02

away with it because the sackler is were never truly

1:04

held to account and, it's story

1:07

particularly close to my heart as I had family

1:09

member who for decades struggled with an opioid

1:11

addiction herself. so i wanted

1:14

to ask patrick about how the settlers amassed

1:16

and abuse their power and whether he

1:18

thinks will ever really be held to account

1:20

for all of the lies they've ruined

1:28

That regretted keep walking to sway. Screw

1:30

to be with you. No, I wouldn't

1:32

talk about as see these people such as. Man.

1:35

After reading your book away from the very first

1:37

pages, literally one have reached

1:40

the book and at nothing violent for

1:42

thinking violence, you know, mean, guess was.

1:44

So angry at the attitude and everything else and what I'm

1:47

interested in a start on this, the word

1:49

I think for these particular sackler to there's several

1:51

branches which you outline. In the box

1:53

was the Oxy Sackler correct.

1:55

He added: "There's one branch of the family that was

1:57

with it did not have a stake in the company at

1:59

the. We were Oxycontin was introduced in said they

2:01

said you know you kinda what the samplers broadly

2:04

the is it I got the Oxy Sackler stats.

2:06

The backlash so.

2:08

i presume that you focus on the perpetrators

2:10

which think was really into this often about your

2:13

the impact of what they've done i'm

2:15

just curious and it's and crazy question crazy start

2:17

but why are they not Being

2:19

prosecuted.

2:21

Yeah, I mean, think listen, this was one of

2:23

the questions in my mind when started this project

2:25

was that you he wanted news

2:27

that. Robbie. See, a lot of pharmaceutical

2:30

companies involved in selling prescription opioids,

2:32

but that there was this one company, the plane, the special

2:34

role and really use that the company

2:36

was privately. held company owned by this one family

2:38

and that they made billions of dollars. Two

2:41

years ago really didn't seem like get caught up with

2:43

the tacklers, I got a bunch of reasons for

2:45

that, I mean, think they were pretty skillful in their pr

2:48

in terms of farms and a painting

2:50

themselves as one thing when in fact there were

2:52

another. They also to get rid of accountability,

2:55

our system is kind of raped in favor

2:57

of corporate actors who do bad

2:59

things, so in this case you have family that

3:01

only company they need billions of dollars from

3:03

it, they dominated the board of directors.

3:06

A quote. The emails from more

3:08

than one see yo. The board

3:10

members and you have to let me do my job

3:13

like you're so interventionist I can't even really

3:15

run this company because the family is so intent

3:17

on running it and. yet there's no accountability

3:20

and i've actually gets his part of the a distance

3:22

got the company purdue pharma has pharma guilty

3:24

to federal criminal charges twice

3:26

But they pleaded guilty to lesser charges, correct?

3:30

I mean, they were pretty significant charges, think the thing

3:32

that's interesting is that say. The first

3:34

time around in two thousand and seven. You

3:36

have the three executives who

3:38

pleads guilty to misdemeanor or,? felony

3:42

More. Recently, at the end of the Trump administration, you had

3:44

another guilty plea by the company's no

3:46

individual exact his revenge charts,

3:49

think that's kind of the trans, you know, even.

3:51

Beyond the story, right, is that a company

3:53

can behave badly, people can benefit from

3:55

it and know individuals are going

3:57

to face any real accountability. Hello

3:59

and pen. It isn't banks of thing up my. The

4:01

early A from pay the fine and

4:03

the people who were in the driver's

4:05

seat and off Scot free.

4:07

What? Drew You. To This Story of The Sackler Family

4:09

wrote an article in Two Thousand and Seventeen, which, of course,

4:11

grew into this book: "The first book was way back

4:14

in two" Thousand and three painkiller by Barry Meyer,

4:16

which clearly pointed out these issues: government

4:19

acquiescence, medical complicity, high

4:21

priced lawyers and lobbyists and things like that.

4:24

What was pretty for me is when I started work

4:26

on this and twenty sixty five seventy

4:28

in Derry Mars bucket the Thomas had

4:31

a. people listen to bury my or in two thousand and three

4:34

think there would be tens of thousands of people alive today.

4:37

Mark. It wasn't a people

4:39

weren't sounding the alarm it was that the soccer's had

4:41

been very skillful our interests of

4:43

making court cases go away enters of

4:46

carrying the record in terms of getting.

4:48

money to fancy institutions and cultivating

4:51

this reputation as is as philanthropist

4:54

For me, it's like question

4:56

about the way people tell stories, so lot

4:58

of time in books or articles about the

5:00

opioid crisis. Backers

5:02

be one strand. Story

5:05

of a doctor and story about, you know,

5:07

prosecutor in story of the cheerleader

5:10

of who gets injured at the

5:12

A Game and if prescribed Oxycontin.

5:15

And I do with the soccer's were kind of able

5:17

to hi. As the stories

5:20

of people would ago, guess there's this family and they own the

5:22

company and they benefited. You

5:24

know, he was, it reminded me of, like, being a kid

5:26

in the school play in your village, your number three

5:28

and Palestinians are the state opening

5:31

of the nobody noticed out here. Yeah, you've

5:33

got pitchfork and you're telling everybody right.

5:36

Exactly, and I was actually where

5:38

we were, and what's the what wanted to do was kind

5:40

of. Find a different kind of sort of

5:42

it is no place to hide.

5:44

The out what happened to change things suddenly,

5:47

have become more focused on

5:49

them what do you think happened to change that

5:52

They can handle things, I mean, you know, my

5:54

PC twenty, some seen think helped there was a piece in

5:56

esquire, the came out around the

5:58

same time that I think help. I'm.

6:01

One of the points. when actually nan

6:03

goldin the photographer Who?

6:07

I'm just kind of interesting source is one of the great American

6:09

photographers she has a background and activism

6:12

or the aids crisis, but she also

6:15

was addicted to occupants of psychosis,

6:17

were in late twenties seventeen she got in touch

6:19

with me. "We met up downtown

6:22

and York City for key and

6:24

she said: "I'm going to start movement I want to get all the

6:26

museums to take the sackler name off the

6:28

walls and am really did not

6:30

take her seriously, thought it sounded. got

6:34

you something when most think using the on you.

6:37

She. "Really didn't start a movement", he added,

6:39

"the group of cocaine pain and

6:42

shortly after that meeting I had with her, they kind

6:44

of stormed the Met and had a big protester"

6:46

That about the Guggenheim, they went to wonder that would

6:48

help bottles and sound, and I remember that exactly,

6:51

but it works, it took awhile right but just about

6:53

a month. Or six weeks ago, the Metropolitan Museum

6:56

of Art took down the sackler name rid of

6:58

been on the walls for half century.

7:00

The bit about the background of the settlers the.

7:03

form industry isn't exactly known for heathens

7:05

and yet purdue and sack was only distinguish

7:08

themselves with aggressive marketing and working

7:10

every inch of leeway that laws

7:12

and regulations gave him and really good marketing and it

7:14

started with arts or sackler on volume

7:16

advertising that the

7:18

family broke off but it still is

7:20

sort of set their playbook for what would later

7:23

Read.

7:24

The thought of this book, not as an opioid crisis,

7:26

both but as a kind of family saga

7:29

for the first third of the book, is devoted to the sky, Arthur

7:31

Dyson, as in sentence he

7:33

for our citizens introduced but Arthur.

7:36

Sort of invented medical advertising as

7:38

we know it today and he's or

7:40

figured out that. It's. Really not

7:43

the consumer from matter so

7:45

much as the doctor you need to seduce the

7:47

doctor is writing the prescription, so he

7:49

decided Don draper figure for medical

7:51

advertising in the. Nineteen fifties

7:53

and he makes his first great fortune on Liberty,

7:56

I'm kind of a predecessor value. The

7:58

became a. The sewing dragon,

8:00

the history of the industry and then valley, which

8:02

soon overtake sets the point what's interesting

8:05

about Arthur is, is. On.

8:07

The deepest level this is story about the hijacking

8:09

of medicine by commerce and Arthur

8:11

was the guy who was just right at the forefront of that

8:14

is, practicing. Physician he does research

8:16

but he's also integral advertising else

8:18

on the pharmaceutical company also owns a. series

8:21

of medical newspapers that carries

8:23

pharma advertising and are given freely doctor

8:25

as he says it's conflicts of interest

8:27

The around which he perfected, "What

8:30

do they understand that other bigger farmers?"

8:33

Nobody hidden under a few things

8:35

I'm in pretty frightened his company that they own

8:37

for decades itself is to humdrum

8:39

over the counter products, you know,

8:41

like they had an ear wax remover that an

8:43

antiseptic solution. They

8:47

weren't really pioneering new drugs and

8:49

then in the eighties they have this painter move

8:51

into the treatment of pain and it's morphine

8:53

drug called them as content. The news,

8:56

primarily for cancer pain and was really

8:58

successful, or with notice with that, was

9:00

that they were kind of limited to the cancer

9:02

market. Because there was stigma

9:05

that people Harem worth it if you found out

9:07

the your grandmother was going on morphine immense,

9:09

she was gonna die.

9:10

Yeah, a or else sounded like you're, and like

9:12

you know, some weird den of iniquity

9:15

or something like that.

9:16

Exactly when not with that's the thing, because there was this

9:18

notion that he shrugs were really powerful

9:20

and that they were addictive and they get up a history

9:23

of causing addiction and people. Yeah.

9:26

Except for cancer drug and them, what happened

9:28

was it was gonna go off patent and are wondering

9:30

how can we replace it and they came up with this idea

9:33

of A? Big Oxy Code on Pills

9:35

Oxycodone is another opioid Smith's

9:37

about derived from the opium poppy as

9:39

much stronger and morphine. This

9:42

was their had big innovation is realize

9:44

when they did focus groups the doctors thought

9:46

it was weaker and. are these incredible

9:49

emails were the senior executives of the company

9:51

say will so many people have cancer And

9:54

we want to target much bigger market. Chronic

9:56

pain, sports injuries, you name it this tens

9:58

of millions of people who. Is it because

10:00

you are? The original tagline for Oxycontin

10:03

it's amazing to look back at this as they said it's the one to start

10:05

with. The want to say what? It's

10:08

not thing you reach for when others have failed

10:10

to the first course of treatment.

10:12

Right? And a, you know, my B, I was gonna say my

10:14

brother, who is an anesthesiologist, he

10:16

got very excited when he heard was talking to you, I'm

10:19

when they moved. It out of cancer pain sufferers

10:21

my brother known as a brilliant marketing move but

10:23

set the stage for widespread availability and

10:25

addiction in. the you moved it to

10:27

wider population of people when you move from

10:29

move s continents octagon a

10:31

which is kind of genius in that regard except

10:34

for the results of it obviously

10:36

I'm in the other thing the pretty did was they targeted

10:39

general practitioners who were not expert

10:41

in the treatment, a pain. Do. You

10:43

have it community of physicians, river smart

10:45

and get it with they do with don't know whole lot

10:47

about Aintree months, much less addiction

10:50

and his army as sales. Representatives

10:52

who basically fanned out across the country

10:54

young not just buying lunch for doctors,

10:56

but entertaining them and setting up speaker's

10:58

bureau where they paid doctors give speeches

11:00

to other. Doctors and, said listen

11:03

we have this amazing silver bullet it's

11:05

can virtually no sign of fact it's not enough The

11:08

enemy. I'm

11:11

and it's everyone else, right?

11:12

One of the things it was interesting was is suddenly

11:14

became this idea that nobody should

11:16

ever.

11:17

In pain, yes, and I think there

11:19

was some truth to that, mean, actually think that early

11:21

on. "There were some people are very sincerely

11:24

had a critique", an anabolic pretty said.

11:27

He wouldn't be taken seriously enough that we

11:29

were kind of asking people to grin and bear it. What

11:32

was interesting was that he got generation of positions

11:34

you said we need to be prescribing were opioids, that

11:36

the answers and then the industry comes

11:39

along and says we're going to just

11:41

turbocharged that message.

11:43

So. My way I remember when had a C section

11:45

in two thousand and two they prescribed

11:47

Oxycodone, I said no, add a

11:49

when it all and they gave me a. Giant

11:52

bottle of it, even though I declined it, and

11:54

said prefer Abdel and I'm not want

11:56

to be insane all the time, but my aunt

11:58

had and. It very serious addiction. That

12:00

and I. remember

12:03

calling remember totally strung out he was completely

12:05

addicted to the doctor self and it

12:07

was really are is terrified me

12:09

as addictive drugs like that so i

12:11

declined but they succeeded at

12:13

the it was fascinating to watch and

12:16

was like my aunt has an opiate addiction

12:18

and not taken any of these

12:19

One I think and if it was to determine to mean

12:22

a lot of doctors hadn't woken up

12:24

now you the reality it's an accomplice I mean think

12:27

a. lot of people have gone for surgery for gone for

12:29

some minor procedure and then given

12:31

a prescription from months of the heights

12:34

Africa isn't the only will be of out there

12:37

that was different about Oxy from your perspective,

12:39

only does it was marketed better or that

12:41

it was the slow release idea

12:44

why did it become the drugs is so obviously linked

12:46

to the oh

12:47

The crisis zero have will things

12:49

the first is that when we talk on Oxycontin

12:51

the contents as for continuous and.

12:54

with that earlier drug the morphine eight come up

12:56

with it's slow release seal which basically

12:58

says okay seeking to somebody a big dose

13:00

of drive And if

13:03

they take the pill, it'll slowly

13:05

released into their butts, the some over the course's

13:08

twelve hours, right? The

13:10

idea was also the top would mean that it wasn't

13:13

addictive, this was not. The

13:15

had no real scientific basis for believing this

13:17

was more conjecture but. so

13:19

you ended up with this kind of perfect storm were the

13:21

one hand you get is huge doses to the

13:23

had hundred and sixty milligrams else

13:26

and yet he was you can take can pill that sat massive

13:28

because it's nobody can absorb it over two

13:31

hours Then what

13:33

they did in the marketing was they said. The

13:35

reason you should in doctor to prescribe this

13:37

interview stuff is it because of the slow

13:39

release it won't be addictive that it's less

13:41

prone to abuse and other drugs now.

13:44

You're not to not be true. Ironically,

13:47

there was a warning label on early bottles,

13:49

A would come with a warning that said: "Whatever you do,

13:52

don't crush the pills, as if you do,

13:54

you'll get massive immediate dose of Oxycodone,

13:57

Hello Yes, which is like it's functions

13:59

as A. For one kind of person, I know how

14:01

to for another, right? Those

14:04

were, mean, think, in combination, you

14:06

ended up with all these are from factors to there's more

14:08

of it, it's easy to abuse

14:10

by crushing at correct yes and

14:13

it's ubiquitous, isn't should say there are people

14:15

who took Oxycontin and tickets today? And

14:18

don't have problems like you're from these people the time

14:20

and, and think, it's important to emphasize that's

14:22

funny part of the reason the soccer's world. The

14:25

able to remain as diluted as they were is

14:27

that they were getting letters from people saying, "Hey, you give

14:29

me my life back, right?" Seven

14:31

hundred people who were deliberately

14:34

of using the drought. The kind of hillbilly

14:36

heroin idea right that it's a strong opioid

14:38

if you crush it and. Nor

14:40

did our shoot it. That you can

14:42

get an immediate release of all that Oxycodone,

14:45

then there's third category people. The

14:48

tacklers and pretty really to this day

14:50

don't like to talk about which is people who take

14:53

it exactly as the doctor ordered. The

14:55

findings of getting addicted.

14:56

And that's a lot market when they realized Super

14:59

Do took advantage of lot for like two hundred loopholes

15:01

and wanna go on lightning round of these and

15:04

tell me how the settlers took advantage

15:06

of these A. speedy approval

15:08

by the sta Why did they weren't,

15:10

why did itself or is so quickly?

15:13

Listen, I think there were some true believers inside

15:15

the F to get into believe that opioids should

15:17

be more widely prescribed, I also think that

15:19

there's a coziness between the

15:21

both yes, the A an industry.

15:23

That leads to a kind of regulatory capture

15:25

and, in into specific egregious

15:27

case of Oxycontin. You get his

15:29

fellow Curtis, right, who was the main regulator

15:32

in charge, he approves Oxycontin,

15:34

he proves these bogus marketing claims

15:36

and then. The goes and works

15:39

at Purdue for three times as government salary.

15:41

And David Kessler groups that if he saw.

15:44

oops right, that's funny because David Kessler

15:46

was run me few the time and she is

15:48

on record as saying that the kind of huge

15:51

he stigmatization of opioids of we're talking

15:53

about is one of the great mistakes of modern medicine.

15:55

The others that passive voice

15:58

yeah, I and asked.

16:00

About? It and he said he had nothing to do with that

16:02

explanation by my right

16:04

arm of the sta, but look, I mean, it's

16:06

kind of analogous to what was saying. About the corporations

16:09

were like Are you from up that guilty and twenty

16:11

the animals are just Arabic science and know

16:13

executive directors? or trucks know

16:15

that gives her name

16:17

We talk about, like, a government bureaucracy

16:19

you're at the Britain as if it's driverless car

16:21

as if there's no human beings. The

16:23

actually making the decisions.

16:25

Next. One lawyers like Married Your White, which

16:27

is a huge disappointment, eat the line you have which

16:29

I thought was great and the very beginning of as he

16:31

spent the first. Half of your chair going after the bad

16:33

guys, which she did and a second half

16:35

representing them.

16:37

To summarize, your wife was a famous

16:39

prosecutor in the southern district of New York, she

16:42

was bombers had of the se si, but she

16:44

was also on. He was

16:46

just somebody who has woman in the law like broke lot

16:48

of ah ceilings, tough be super

16:50

tough small woman's yeah, very few

16:52

small but very heroic, and then, you

16:54

know, became sort of hatchet woman for the sappers

16:57

and for do and she's been doing that. You know,

16:59

over the last fifteen years. She's

17:01

not alone, right, I mean, talk about Rudy Giuliani,

17:03

who one word that might have a Eric Holder.

17:06

You can be part of what I wanted to

17:08

get out in this story is

17:10

you have one family that is Ray Dudley. Lots

17:13

of people read the book and like you, they feel a sense of anger

17:15

in sense of kind of indignation like, "How could they get away with

17:18

this?" The answer to me

17:20

is that they're surrounded by. The

17:22

even professional enablers

17:24

who, for whatever reason, the stench

17:27

the does attached to the soccer's often doesn't

17:29

attached to the people who keep

17:31

them in business because there's this idea

17:33

that if your. You're better call

17:35

Saul. Your son of little devil

17:38

may care little disreputable, but if you're married, your

17:40

why. Everybody's entitled

17:42

to good lawyer and there's the sense of it has nothing to do

17:44

with me really be kind of underlying sense,

17:46

my job, yes, my job yet right.

17:48

What about moving doctors of meals and was

17:51

slack my brother talked about this a lot talk?

17:53

about that They had and nine million

17:55

dollar budget for.

17:56

The doctors are due to the nine

17:58

million or budget was just.

18:00

The food, yeah, you know that

18:02

and looking for me as. If you

18:04

go back to Arthur Sackler, he original

18:06

and a patriotic. He had to thank

18:08

you the doctors are like priests are like Rabbis

18:10

they're kind of incorruptible all

18:13

they care about is the treatment of the patients

18:15

and that's the way your profession regards

18:17

itself I think you're very easy mark

18:20

you. know in a case of purdue

18:22

Faculty doctors were like a you.

18:24

could be need nice dinner The

18:27

magnitude we're prescribed don't be ridiculous,

18:30

I'm professional wanted to buy my patients,

18:32

but of course I've seen the other end of that, which is the

18:34

internal emails, were there like less looking to return

18:36

on investment on every dollar we spend on

18:38

food. Not to dinner with like expert

18:40

testing. Honey because the Speakers Bureau

18:43

I mean it's like it's so fucking ice cream cone

18:45

you get hundreds. and hundreds of doctors

18:47

who get paid to give speeches Two

18:50

other doctors who are also there

18:52

for free so that everybody can hear about

18:54

how undertreated pain as and how Oxy Contin

18:56

is a. solution Right

18:59

which is set up by Purdue.

19:01

How come out of it about that claims like

19:03

one that Oxycontin was not addictive and?

19:06

they all The course turned out to be false.

19:09

Yeah, I mean, this is sort of the it's like the climb

19:11

game is that you get this official

19:13

looking literature, and you get these

19:16

pharmaceutical sales reps who are heavily

19:18

incentivized to try and get doctors prescribing.

19:21

The doses for Margaret, the time they go

19:23

out there. The other with the thing that

19:25

they talked about, like some landmark study

19:27

that turned out to be this brief

19:29

little letter to the editor and the New England

19:31

Journal of Medicine that the guy who wrote it has

19:33

since. Kind of his own, he

19:35

said, "I was appalled the think that they would

19:37

use it to sell" The drug

19:40

in this way, while this marketing right absolutely,

19:43

but you see that again and again and throughout

19:45

right, the student's assertion critically after.

19:48

People started dying. There

19:50

must be something wrong with the people. Right,

19:52

absolutely, that's the big have it for a

19:54

while, they kind of put their heads in the Senate, pretended

19:56

nothing's happening and eventually have so many people dying,

19:58

you know the and that it's and. Multi deny

20:01

and then they said oh the problems in the drugs,

20:03

the problem is the people and they're criminals

20:05

and still misusing they're criminals

20:08

and if they weren't of using Oxycontin, they be abusing

20:10

something else and down. I'm

20:13

very strongly disagree with that. And

20:15

I think it's some serving in Bologna, but also

20:17

think that it's. That's an incredibly

20:20

resonant thing to argue in our culture

20:22

where we have a really young guns don't kill

20:24

people, people kill people, read this is if this is

20:26

a. We live in very libertarian

20:28

economy. There's sense that you

20:30

can create. Something that it back

20:33

at dick those often, but you know addictive

20:35

or whatever, but can really hurt people, can

20:37

kill people.

20:39

And you can put it on the world and get rich on it. And

20:41

if there's somebody else after it

20:43

leaves your hand to make some decision.

20:45

It's all on them. On

20:47

you thinking

20:51

it was my aunt's fault. You know, she

20:53

couldn't get off of it. Then it was a pharmacist

20:56

salt because we used to find bottles and bottles

20:58

subscribe for herself, she's pediatrician,

21:00

and it was crazy that the pharmacist's gay, I was like,

21:02

we went around to all the pharmacies and, like, hey.

21:05

You. Know, four hundred pills for a pediatrician

21:07

is really crazy, but in

21:10

lot of ways we blamed her versus the pharmacy

21:12

because, like you question controller sell, she could never.

21:14

Get off of that, he does plan to, they

21:16

have weakness of some sort, I

21:18

remember thinking that and even to this

21:21

day. And you know something's off that they

21:23

couldn't get off of it. Yeah.

21:25

Don't I think addition is it it's such a complicated

21:28

issue and it's one that we're all still wrestling with

21:30

an eyesore of in most families we end

21:32

up encounter, yes, in some form or another, and I

21:34

do think that there are these types of questions, one thing

21:36

that. Certainly them for

21:38

years or so I've spent working on this has

21:40

brought home to me is that a lot of people

21:42

just don't stand chance that you know that to sort of

21:44

suggested it's all as matter

21:47

of willpower. This, you overlook

21:49

how profound the kind of chemical

21:52

hold of these drugs can have on people

21:54

and.

21:54

overwhelming and easily available at most,

21:56

a little bit of misinformation that assesses

21:59

really did link.

22:00

Calling these people criminal, saying it was addictive

22:02

personalities when it became

22:04

clear. Damn. That

22:07

people are abusing Oxy, you have a really amazing

22:09

section in the book about them looking online

22:11

forums about people were abusing it and

22:14

then the person he was doing the looking the assistant

22:16

six. The kid cause

22:18

back pain and then gets fired to six

22:20

and deal with their job it just was of.

22:23

course

22:24

Yeah, I mean, to this day, their

22:26

position is that it is vanishingly

22:28

rare for people who take the drug as

22:31

directed by doctor to become addicted. And

22:34

upon a lot about this the t yeah,

22:36

you would think if you're a billionaire did you

22:38

get the best advice from the best people And

22:41

really, I think it's often actually the opposite

22:43

that the problem is that if you're surrounded by people whose

22:45

livelihood depends on keep you happy,

22:47

you can just get more and more deluded and

22:50

so. There were representatives

22:52

of the soccer's retelling, you know, when was

22:54

finishing up there were some is vanishingly rare,

22:56

and you know, like there's a study that one

22:58

insurance company did. The

23:01

opportunity as they looked it's people who

23:03

were prescribed preview opioid

23:05

and then subsequently died notes like their medical

23:07

diagnosis of an opioid use disorder, say

23:10

said the number was in the hundreds of thousands.

23:12

That's not vanishingly

23:14

rare of.

23:15

That'a the mental gymnastics of his family

23:17

is really fascinating switches

23:19

about the that idea of why within company,

23:21

company even the cigarette companies

23:24

are aware And started to do sort of

23:26

damage control. Why did

23:28

this company not? Do that,

23:30

yeah, yeah.

23:32

You. Know, I think some of this is that it wasn't

23:34

a public company, the privately held

23:36

company, and so the company was very much

23:38

reflection of the personalities involved

23:41

and in. , case there was a

23:43

tradition of just like in porter like

23:45

just by and doubled down.

23:48

and that was always the approach was trying to kill the messenger

23:50

if there were people who are lawsuits are

23:52

employees race issues where journalists

23:55

who wrote critically about

23:57

the company they which is absolutely

24:00

Go after them like ton of bricks and yourself

24:02

correct, and it was to for me as well,

24:04

yeah, and. I think as

24:06

a consequence you got into this weird situation where

24:09

I mean, can, interviewed dozens and dozens

24:11

of people who worked at the company and with the soccer's

24:14

over all these years, it's not what their work

24:16

people who said to them.

24:18

Hey, you're getting all this money away.

24:21

If. You took one hundred billion dollars and put it

24:23

in a foundation and said that you're gonna help people

24:25

with attacks, okay, I used to sort of rank

24:28

your addiction and their.

24:30

Perspective was no, that would look like

24:32

for conceding that we ever did anything wrong,

24:34

and then those people who kept raising it we

24:36

get sidelines and the people who said.

24:39

You've never done anything wrong, you're just really misunderstood.

24:42

The get promoted and so today. The

24:45

handmaidens to the sackler, the real

24:48

sort of loyal people who are still around them

24:50

are people who say. This. Is a pr

24:52

problem the twenty of us in this room of the

24:54

only ones you see things clearly and everyone

24:56

outside like the really the companies in three

24:58

thousand lawsuits The families

25:01

being sued by half of the Attorney General of

25:03

the United You know, you've got my

25:05

book, you than ton of press coverage. You got academic

25:07

studies. It just goes on,

25:09

and on and on. And all of that is wrong. We're

25:11

just really understood.

25:17

I'll be back

25:19

in a minute.

25:22

If

25:22

you like this interview and want to hear others, follow

25:24

us on your favorite podcast, that you'll

25:26

be able to catch up on sway episodes. You may have

25:28

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25:30

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25:34

with Patrick. Radden Keefe, after the break.

25:49

That's what about the loss is Richard Sackler ran

25:51

for do for years, it seems literally

25:53

like. Mold more as an active

25:55

player has not ever given any interviews

25:58

thanks to depositions. The some information

26:01

about. him a little they cause he's either the others

26:04

to seem like But

26:06

this guy got some cold ice rink in

26:08

the middle of something going on with him, so

26:10

what was his strategy of not recognizing

26:12

the harm business strategy, legal strategy, callousness,

26:15

all of the above?

26:17

Richards about a guy and he you know his

26:19

father had grown up or in

26:21

Brooklyn Richard. is you

26:23

know he's gonna to the matter born right like

26:25

he grows up rich his first job

26:27

is as assistant to the president at purdue

26:29

frederick and his father with father presidents

26:32

and It's funny I interviewed

26:34

his college roommate. And

26:37

this guy described Richard before he'd ever

26:39

gone into business as being this kind of. Somebody

26:41

who had. Certain charisma

26:44

in the he was really smart. And he would

26:46

develop a theory or and interest and any was just

26:48

like runaway train he was all in on

26:50

the idea but. also

26:53

the he was Very

26:55

little empathy was very hard for him to

26:57

kind of for themselves into other

26:59

people's shoes or see that negative

27:01

externalities of his own behavior, and

27:04

it's funny because decades later you see

27:06

exactly that he's this guy

27:08

who's to say. This dream is

27:10

Oxycontin, it's is baby. Even?

27:12

More closely identified with it than anyone and one

27:15

point is asking to go on ride along with

27:17

like sales reps, he wants kind of go

27:19

along and they're. "All really worried about because they're

27:21

clearly worried that he's going to start and selling Octagon

27:24

ran over the doctor's arts, but I think

27:26

it's somebody says like you said very" Cold,

27:28

very clinical south. The sociopathic

27:30

since the. Yes, I'm no good guy address,

27:33

but was like, "Whoa, that's a word to come up again

27:35

and again"

27:36

"Were you surprised that he continued to deny any I

27:38

was not after reading your book, the do any

27:40

responsibility for the opioid epidemic when

27:42

he testified in court, were you surprised?" None

27:44

of them day.

27:46

I mean up to. the couple

27:48

of the rockefellers broke was

27:50

you know they all broke eventually yeah

27:53

i mean think some of that is maybe with enough time they will

27:56

say that really thought that

27:58

It would be some younger.

28:00

Sackler He says I don't want the

28:02

money don't want anything to do with it and,

28:04

when i found is that you have these people who are like

28:06

they make documentaries there and some

28:08

fine and saying it's the millennial

28:11

sackler so and they all take the

28:13

money and they all say it has nothing

28:15

to do with me none of them are broken now

28:17

none of them are broken know any to the point where

28:19

like got there's a family what's that

28:22

The mortimer Sackler family where they're all going

28:24

back and forth. The biggest private

28:26

at certain union, the what's up somebody says like list.

28:29

And he now you know like let's keep it on the watching

28:32

eventually, it got it got attached in

28:34

court violence and I got it on.

28:37

even in not private zone there's

28:39

nobody who says We

28:41

need to do something wrong, they all to talk

28:44

about it as a PR problem.

28:45

Then you came across a story in an odd way when you're

28:47

covering Narco's explain that because the sackler

28:50

as remind me of the Narco moguls you.

28:53

So. I the came to dismiss weird way, which

28:55

is that had been reading, but the Mexican

28:57

drug cartels and in around two

28:59

thousand and ten you suddenly see a surge.

29:01

In Mexican heroin on the streets of the U. S.

29:03

and initially people could really explain

29:05

why it as you would suddenly seymour such as man.

29:09

Then. American consumers will,

29:11

use heroin but they all had an honorary which

29:13

was Oxycontin another prescription opioids,

29:16

what happens in two thousand and ten is that Purdue

29:18

Pharma reformulate Oxycontin.

29:21

So it's harder to crash so it's basically

29:23

like it's Anita it's impossible to turn into a.

29:25

powder why two thousand

29:27

and two The turns up the patents

29:29

on the original. The about you run out

29:31

so they reset the path. That

29:34

point, they go to the as the, and they say we know we've

29:36

been telling you for fourteen years, the original version

29:38

is safe. Right it's,

29:40

actually not so you shouldn't allow any generic

29:43

companies to make generic version of the one that we've

29:45

been selling all the time East only be able to

29:47

breath by are like branded. reformulated

29:51

And. I got this amazing study

29:53

where they're looking at their own sales. Feel

29:57

to be eighty milligram oxycontin

29:59

pill. Twenty five percent. Virtually

30:01

overnight. The show you what? People

30:04

were absolutely finding it in abusing

30:06

it. Those people then migrate

30:08

to heroin, so this is the son of broader story

30:11

which is. Nope

30:13

you're likely to heroin, Herrmann eventually leads to set

30:15

know.

30:16

And we could to thing about there's a, of course, then there's

30:18

the Narco Lords I don't know what you call them

30:20

in other countries that are. Criminals

30:22

to either as. attackers are just them

30:25

without guns is. kind of interesting

30:27

that they actually are in jail many

30:29

of the people are into and precision for sued

30:31

The United States are aggressively. Speaking

30:34

about in two thousand and eighteen Massachusetts attorney

30:36

general Maura Healey, when after the family,

30:39

the case listed eight, Sackler says defendants

30:41

how did that move the needle this is after twenty

30:43

years of litigation against Purdue Pharma.

30:46

Usually I'm in earlier when you ask what changed

30:48

so I think one thing the case was angle than

30:50

another was Maura Healey she, did

30:53

what nobody else had done which is say up

30:55

everybody's going after the company but what about

30:57

this family. and about half

30:59

of the states after her joined

31:01

on and father on lawsuits against the family

31:04

and so that's what kind of thought as to where

31:06

we are The day, not criminal

31:08

charges, think they probably won't get criminally charged

31:11

in his, but you'd have a lot of pressure.

31:13

The family with the civil cases in way

31:16

that had never happened right before I

31:18

just kind of funny thing happens which is that are

31:21

they. declare bankruptcy which is you

31:23

know i see cotton's generated thirty five billion

31:25

dollars in revenues and ninety six

31:28

So how does pretty you declare bankruptcy?

31:31

The answers that about a decade ago the family

31:33

started just quietly polling money out of the company

31:36

and, today they claim that it was just was coincidence

31:38

they just happen to do it wasn't that they knew

31:40

that sunday there would be as you'd sort of

31:42

lawsuits When? That happens,

31:45

they wanted all the money to be non and the company,

31:47

but in their private accounts, but the result

31:49

is that you got a situation when they come to kick. The company to bankruptcy

31:51

instead as money ready marks, but they had actually taken

31:53

ten billion dollars out of the company before

31:56

doing that and then they offered money, which is.

31:58

Forty five billion.

32:00

As much of a would go to people who are hooked

32:02

on oxycontin as others as government

32:04

and things like that this.

32:06

is in limbo now the settlement that maura healey

32:08

worked on correct

32:10

It is on, but I think we can kind

32:12

of see the broad outlines of words and ago, so,

32:15

you know, the weird thing about this case is that if it ends

32:17

up in bankruptcy court, which is a strange place

32:19

to settle. The question of the culpability

32:21

this family and this company and huge public health crisis.

32:24

Actually, Cortisol transactional, the

32:26

busy with the family said, was "Here's a number that

32:29

we will pay" We. Will pay

32:31

it if you give us immunity

32:33

from any future system, all the lawsuits against

32:35

us go wrong, we don't have to be looking over our shoulders

32:37

as or lights and. So what happened was

32:39

the just signed off on that the number was four point five

32:41

billion, which sounds like lot of money,

32:44

but I think is arguably not they're paying. Out of

32:46

her nine years, they have an eleven doing our fortunes,

32:48

they can just pay it with the returns on their

32:50

fortunes and a

32:52

federal judge in New York review that. And

32:54

said: "absolutely would just, you

32:56

know, you shouldn't be able to deny future litigants

32:59

the right to bring this is no bankruptcy

33:01

judge, the able to do that in situations so"

33:03

There's mediator now. They're

33:05

all talking and I think that, were this is

33:07

gonna come out, is it was to be a

33:09

number of us be higher number the soccer's be forced

33:11

to pay more. No. Go

33:14

to jail. Then. Could

33:16

it you ever? No, I

33:19

don't think.

33:19

Yeah look you have a A.

33:21

elizabeth holmes going to jail Yeah. Didn't

33:23

kill anybody. Fraud that didn't

33:26

kill anybody with.

33:27

I mean, think listen, the soccer's have not

33:29

been charged with anything, mice

33:32

think, to some extent, this is the story of how.

33:35

Prosecutors who tend

33:37

not to want to take on cases must are guaranteed

33:39

they're going away. And

33:41

a big high profile case like this: nobody's and

33:44

thinking on unless they know that they can really put

33:46

them away, and I think if you have any.

33:48

The uncertainty about that particular with

33:51

federal prosecutors is a great book

33:53

written about this stock on the chicken shit club,

33:55

which kind of sums it up rights, federal

33:57

prosecutors are just very timid when it comes

33:59

to. The criminal charges

34:01

against corporate executives and,

34:03

ask you to be enough to yeah i'm

34:06

sticking with his civil settlements What

34:08

else is left with soothing justices and serve?

34:10

Not remotely know a. You know I

34:12

think that it's a great deal for Sappers

34:15

I think the one piece of good news is that

34:17

there will be a huge

34:19

document repository the out of this

34:22

as documents. and so

34:24

i hope that The average public

34:26

record of how this whole thing started that

34:29

doesn't feel like justice to me, I think in the case

34:31

of soccer's there's a little bit of poetic and irony,

34:33

which is just that this is family that was. The

34:35

relentlessly branding themselves.

34:38

Yeah. I'll answer the I was gonna, am a lot

34:40

of time in the arts or I'm sackler whatever

34:42

get Asian of ours, the beautiful girl is beautiful

34:45

donations from him and. I feel

34:47

nauseous when now think of how much

34:49

time spent there and was like a look is rich

34:51

family get money that is beautiful thing. But,

34:54

they did that all over the place all over the world

34:56

just recently is as you said them factors

34:58

have been coming off as lot But not

35:01

all of them.

35:02

All of them you know, Arthur Sackler

35:05

a widow and his daughter. I've

35:07

been saying that we shouldn't take his name off

35:09

because he was one of the only

35:12

made his money on Valley family.

35:24

I think there's a little bit of poetic irony

35:26

there in that with another family that had

35:28

cared less about him blazing its name everywhere.

35:30

It might be less painful to

35:33

see it coming down, you know that

35:35

ain't justice, but I think it's as close we're going to get

35:37

obsessed with that without

35:39

idea.

35:39

Where

35:48

are they coming off low? Put internet people on

35:50

it next. But do you think most after these

35:52

last few will cause I

35:54

know because

35:56

I've talked to people in other institutions that they were watching

35:58

the mat and when the math? That decision,

36:01

I think there will be others that we, what you're from

36:03

other prominent institutions, probably in the coming

36:06

months and I'm sally quite astonishing that there.

36:07

The were left, of efficient

36:10

and pretty work the system the sta

36:12

regulation you know is inadequate

36:14

and lots of ways the characters on area I talk

36:17

about lot. you get regulation when

36:19

these to be these ringing so much money and the fines

36:21

or a drop in bucket

36:23

I would you to go back to what said earlier, think there

36:25

needs to be letter it's on the civil

36:27

or better still if there's panel misconduct

36:29

on the criminal side, think there needs to be

36:32

the threat of individual liability

36:34

for. The individual

36:36

executives think as long as you have.

36:40

A multibillion dollar conglomerate that

36:42

and for small by a ton of influence

36:44

in terms of bomb. The use of

36:46

lawmakers, religious lobbyists are

36:48

in the best lawyers, just this kind of influence

36:51

juggernaut to rig the system

36:53

in it's favor. I think it's very

36:55

hard to read any real consequences

36:58

when legislation is getting rewritten essentially

37:00

to their specifications and,

37:02

when no individual You're

37:04

like there will be any real penalty.

37:07

The biggest or whistleblowers you interviewed dozens

37:09

of for new employees, why wasn't there a whistleblower?

37:12

I just read the speech in the New Yorker and it was in part because wondered,

37:15

you know, was like the dog or didn't bark gray

37:17

like, "Why was there no whistleblower in this case?"

37:19

And. I. Think some of it was

37:21

that it was it ultimately a fairly small companies

37:24

with lot of loyalty to the family, I think the whole

37:26

ethos of for do it was. Very the godfather

37:29

they were sort of like if you're loyal to us will be loyal

37:31

to you, we reward loyalty and

37:33

we punish disloyalty it's, and so

37:35

there was one instance. In which you guys what exactly

37:37

was a barbecue at woman named and white, it was

37:39

sales rep for basically she was

37:41

fired and the reason she was fired was. That she had

37:44

said. I don't want to be hitting

37:46

the drug to these Sergey doctors.

37:49

And they let her go, and she sued not

37:51

for any huge amount of money, she sued it basically

37:53

to get out of name whole when they

37:55

let her go. And I'm

37:58

they just absolutely crush. They

38:00

just a matter or with everything they had.

38:03

And I think it probably people saw that

38:05

sort of thing, and mean, tell the story in

38:07

a book about Have Very Meyer was reading New

38:09

York Times about. The you and

38:12

for do manage to get hurry taken off

38:14

the story they like went over his head of the Times

38:16

and succeeded so. The

38:19

probably in this case, people saw the

38:21

retaliation and that was part of before,

38:23

you know?

38:23

Recently, where I know you said there's me from that

38:25

detective's on you, are you?

38:27

It could be honest with you, I wasn't there was an

38:29

incident or the summer where had somebody

38:32

outside my house and I'm

38:34

in a car. They were legal

38:36

threats of assorted I've never dealt with the

38:38

I mean I've gotten one legal threats over the years but

38:40

was like a steady drumbeat for two years

38:42

of legal threats to. be kind of

38:44

has territory in particular with the legal threats

38:47

i actually think it's such an amateur move mean

38:49

think this is the thing that struck me was again

38:51

was if you're so rich and you have the

38:54

benefit of suspect console Any?

38:56

Only been fascinated sack off the record

38:58

not to be quoted and of course I'm like I'm going to quote

39:01

the it's going to do, amateurs, you

39:03

know it's is this. Really the way you operate you

39:05

think that that's gonna work a arm

39:07

and I think that there's a sort of. it's

39:10

have been in new hampshire but the

39:12

crazy thing is i feel as though it does work

39:14

with some care which is why they keep trying they move

39:17

and when they try it and it doesn't work they're kind

39:19

of all out a move spray You

39:21

know how they reacted when the book came out. Yeah.

39:23

I mean, should say, to be very clear, tried really hard

39:25

to talk to the family throughout the whole process,

39:28

to sent them in one hundreds of queries for.

39:30

The family in the company and give them an

39:32

opportunity to comment and they basically

39:34

boycotted the whole thing. Around

39:36

the time the book came out, they had a statement that they would send

39:38

out, which is hilarious where they would say

39:41

he would be like. We wanted to meet

39:43

with him, but he refused to meet with us, which was just

39:45

sort of was all kind of silly, but I'm

39:47

not good listener gunfire step on quiet.

39:49

And that's what they're hoping to do: go quietly with their billions

39:51

of dollars and pay some of them over to

39:53

the people but not enough now

39:55

still live in their house isn't as.

39:58

do their weird version of succession For

40:00

the rest of their lives, I guess, but they're

40:02

not in the far of isn't.

40:03

The more correct know that's right, so

40:05

they gave up their interest in the company

40:07

and which Muslim they have

40:09

lots of money that they can invest in other industries.

40:12

What an amazing book this is a book I would recommend

40:14

to everybody is a failure as

40:17

every single. Not

40:19

just the Packers are the, please put them at the front and center

40:21

I'm glad you did, but it's and the Ft A

40:23

of the medical community as our legal

40:26

system tr everybody just

40:28

for money and Patrick Brzezinski,

40:30

thank you. Thank

40:32

you.

40:44

Hey, the production of New York Times opinion

40:47

it's produce an anal I thought played tee

40:49

shirts.

40:50

Daphne ten caitlin oh Keith and why

40:52

on with. original

40:54

music by isis jones mixing by

40:56

sonia hero and tell some a row and

40:59

fact checking by kate sinclair And Mary marriage

41:01

love her.

41:03

Thanks to Shannon Best Pizza Man

41:05

and fifteen Samuel is the,

41:08

senior editors way his name rather

41:10

and executive producer of not and the thing

41:13

audio is ironically, if

41:15

you're in a podcast app already you know how to

41:17

get your podcast follow this. one

41:20

this listening at the time

41:21

I say want to get each new episode of way delivered

41:23

to you. Wong with a cell thinking. in

41:26

can download any podcast app

41:28

and search for Sway and follow the show released

41:30

every. The Monday and Thursday. The thanks

41:32

for listening. At the base

41:35

camp last week, the tank is removed the sackler

41:37

name from that escalator and said

41:39

it won't accept future donations from the family,

41:41

I guess that's. Is we're going?